I Don't Understand NFTs

17 points by adabaed ↗ HN
Hi! I think I'm missing something about NFTs. I don't understand what's great about them in general. Honestly, I feel like my father when he saw for first time a smartphone. Can you point me to a resource or explain me if you think they are revolutionary, why they are? Thank you.

61 comments

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I don't get it either. I think most of the "expensive" ones that get the media attention are faked with wash through purchases. Other ones are simply people trying to get in and hope that it "goes up"
I never thought so many people was interested in art.
What's your level of knowledge about other things in this space? Do you know what a blockchain is, for example?
Yes. I don't understand the need to create an NFT. What problem does this resolve.
Here's my take on a short answer:

It satisfies the desire of vanity for the consumers.

When you purchase an NFT it means people will acknowledge (backed by the blockchain) you're the only person in the world to "own" this particular item.

The need to create NFT is to get money from whatever you created, if there's anyone find it interesting and wants to "own" it.

Isn't more effective to use standard copyright protection?
yes, and I think NFTs and copyright are very similar but anyone can buy an NFT very easily - you just pay for it.

To get copyright protection on something you may need to hire a lawyer, file some papers etc.

Maybe NFTs are more similar to a combination of letters of authenticity and a deed when you buy a painting or something at auction stating that the thing you have is real and that you are the owner.

In the majority of countries, and according to the Berne Convention, copyright is granted automatically to an original work upon its creation. If I make a graphic or write a poem (or a computer program), I automatically hold copyright protection.

There are indeed exceptions, but I doubt any of those exceptions are going to care about NFTs either.

Until at least one person tests this in court, it's safer to assume that NFTs don't give you absolutely any legal rights. And if the only thing you have is NFT, the author can sue you for copyright violation.
But NFTs can be copied. In which case a third party outside the blockchain must attest to which NFT is original or legitimate. That kills the whole proof of ownership angle, I think. Having an NFT only means you control a digital file asserting that you "own" something else; what is meant by "own" and if the assertion is true is not knowable without off-chain information.

I'll give you that it does allow creators to extract value from their work.

That 2nd sentence is incorrect. The blockchain is already the 3rd party attesting to the NFT's legitimacy. The purpose of the decentralized blockchain is to remove the need for 3rd party validation. Yes the NFT can be copied, and yes the digital asset that the NFT represents can be copied, BUT the NFT's record in the blockchain can NOT be copied. What is meant by "own" is that the owner's address is tied to the NFT in the blockchain record.
I'd replace "NFT legitimacy" with "NFT correctness". Unless you met the author and seen them create the NFT, you don't really know if it's legitimate (as in created by the original author) or not. The market being flooded by random fakes and actual authors having to put their higher quality art behind a paywall is a serious problem these days.

For real legitimacy of the source, you need either the author or a trusted third party.

I think in most cases with NFTs, "own" is being defined at ownership of the off-chain artwork (or other thing).

I think people are being sold the idea that they're buying a certificate that proves they own (in some sense of the word) the artwork, but in reality they're being sold a certificate that proves they own the certificate.

If you have a digital work of art, an NFT can help you with two things: forms a binding between the rights-holder and the work of art. The NFT can also encode various information and other licensing decisions made by the rights holder for example:

- what is the name of the license covering the work of art - who is the original author - what date was the work created - what if anything was it derived from - are private or public performances allowed - is copying allowed - does the license allow for sublicenses or transfers

And, as we get into the money question: - what is the cost to play, display, or perform this work - who should be paid

I could imagine, say, iTunes being able to play NFT protected works, and being able to collect a fee from the user to be able to play it. In theory this would go directly to the rights holder, which would perhaps be the original author rather than a music publisher.

Another example I saw was that artists could create limited editions, say of 1000 of a digital image. If I wanted to display these on my TV, I would have to have own the NFT. The NFT addresses the problem of how Samsung figures out how to pay the rights holder. Usually after a work of art is sold, the original author is out of the picture. But, they could encode an NFT so that whenever the ownership is transferred, the original creator gets a slice. So, the original creator would continue to benefit from works which appreciate in value.

Re: your last example.

Where is the incentive for a company to actually bother reaching into the ledger to determine who holds royalty rights? The underlying media pointed to by the NFT is not restricted, it's infinitely reproducible and thus valueless. Why not just right-click save-as and display the media, bypassing the metadata encoded in the NFT?

It seems like there'd have to be some person or collection of persons who are responsible for enforcing that the company treat the terms of the NFT as a binding agreement. Using force, if necessary, either legal or physical. Something almost like... a legal system associated with a state. Which would be centralized. Which would beg the question, what's the value of the decentralized ledger in that case?

> The underlying media pointed to by the NFT is not restricted, it's infinitely reproducible and thus valueless

It is protected by copyright or other IP law, and not valueless.

I would say that the incentive is that they can access a market of digital products without fear of being sued by the rights-owner. The value of the NFT approach is that it can all be codified and automated so that a) as a creator I can get paid for my content without having to negotiate contracts with every distribution channel b) distribution channels get access to every piece of content.

Not saying that NFT's will work in the end, but that's my understanding of it.

In simple terms, though, it's just codifying the license terms, so that at least has some value as digital media grows and content creation becomes decentralized.

Someone posted this video recently [1] and it's the best explanation I have seen thus far.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_noey_NmZV0

Thank you! I'm starting to get what's my problem with NFTs. Is a cool idea but poorly implemented IMO, as the video says is pointless to use NFTs on a digital file. However, the real breakthrough could be to add NFTivity (working on the name). For example, you take a real Picasso, 3D scan the paint (with all the imperfections real paints has), encode that and transform it to an NFT.
Nope, we don't want our Picasso NFT to be selled without the physical paint. So yeah, I'm still confused hahahah.. Still could be nice to implement it on a different blockchain to been able to authenticate paints without the authenticator.
It's quit simple. If you have something that is 'limited edition' that could potentially have higher resale value than purchase price people will be buying it because it ticks all the same boxes in human psyche as gambling.

It doesn't matter if it's rare card, beanie babies, or just a handfulll of pretty meaningless data. If it's rare and associated with something cool, no matter how tenuously, people will buy it.

And cryptocurrency backbone facilitates effortless resale.

Right—and in the loose model that I use to make sense of it, crypto/web3/blockchain/whatever becomes the setting. You actually don't need to understand a whole lot about any of that stuff to get involved.

So to generalize:

Introducing a limited supply to the right early adopters creates perceived exclusivity and value.

Perceived exclusivity and value draws attention.

Attention increases engagement creates FOMO.

FOMO attracts audience and grows community.

Community stabilizes value, and with enough momentum spins off new projects where the cycle starts over again and the system expands. This is often where outsiders and newcomers begin to enter.

Plug that flywheel into crypto where it not only facilitates effortless transactability, but the barriers to entry drop to the point where access is determined by who can get there first and the price of entry.

This is a huge factor in the explosive and viral growth that many NFT projects have seen.

I think the valuation of most NFTs is insane, but underlying all that I think they just tap into the desire to collect things. Personally, I've collected much dumber things than NFTs in the past. I don't think collecting NFTs is any dumber than collecting bottle caps, baseball cards, conceptual art certificates of authenticity, or digital goods managed by centralized entities. The big difference is that NFTs are liquid and visible, so it's very easy for a culture to form around collecting weird shit.
Agreed. And digging down to the social layer beneath it all, the network effects created by the community that coalesces around these projects is what drives everything.
I recommend watching this interview with the creator of NFTbay, there are a lot of misconceptions on it's current usage.

TL;DW: it's an immutable representation of some data (usually a hyperlink), put on to a public blockchain such that ownership of this representation can be verified.

Not much different to a regular certificate just different trust assumptions (certificates use a trusted party, while NFTs use a "trusted" technology).

I know what it is, I don't understand the hype around it. Now I know more!
Thank you for the talk link!
That’s it I’ve decided I’m making a post about NFT myth busting. (Not this one but another one)

Think about it like this It used to be that when you bought a painting, if you bought an original, you got a painting + signature showing it’s an original.

NFTs are meant to be used for digital art, where the physical object doesn’t exist, and anyone can make their own copy. So think of NFTs as when we “decoupled” the art from the signature.

So Before you bought Physical Art Print (limited) + Signature

Now you buy Digital copy (one of infinite) + Signature

Since the digital art is infinite, you’re mostly really paying for the signature.

What you’re getting with an NFT is just the signature. The art, being digital and infinitely reproducible is still out there. Curiously, what we’ve found is that if you make just a Market for digital art, where you sell only the signatures, people will come and trade them and buy them.

You might ask - well what the hell is the point of buying just signatures? To what I’ll reply that everyone has their own kink, and that it has solved a big problem for digital artists who can now make money for their art instead of having to shill for brands or make trash to fund what they really love.

Think of it as a form of DRM for digital artists, in the actual meaningful form of the term - Rights Management being the operative words here. It used to be that in order to enforce DRM on “legitimate” copies of a film for instance, Netflix runs a bunch of servers, sells you the streaming and reliable delivery of pixels to your screen. But really they are just enforcing DRM over a bunch of pixels. Same thing with indie artists today. They can do something they couldn’t do before, which is to digitally sign X amounts of their artwork and sell it on an permissionless global market.

IMO NFTs right now are little more than a good way to fund artists you like by buying digital signatures over their digital art.

> solved a big problem for digital artists who can now make money

Digital artists made and sold art online for a long time. There's a new way to do it, but "can now make money" is a weird way to phrase it.

the digital "signature" may entice people who previously did not purchase digital art, thus expanding the market.

It's indeed a "new" way to make money. You cannot "pirate " this signature. As for whether this signature is indeed worth the price being paid - only time will tell. My bet is that it's not worth anything, but it is possible that it's worth a lot more than i give it credit for.

“only time will tell” doing some big lifting in that sentence
> It's indeed a "new" way to make money. You cannot "pirate " this signature.

You can't stop anyone else from making different nft pointing at your art and saying their nft is original. So maybe you can't pirate it, but nothing stops you from making as many nft pointing to someone else art as you want. And selling them.

So an NFT is a digital signature that is worthless unless it "makes a market for" itself. It is a pointer to an infinitely and freely reproducible resource, meaning the owner of the signature doesn't actually have control over the underlying resource, they just have "proof" that they "own" it. And the owner needs to convince other people that their "owning" the signature has value, so that other people will pay larger sums of money for transferring "ownership", or other people will be recruited into the market to buy more stuff.

Let's substitute "digital signature"/"NFT" for "tulip", or "star", or "moon crater", or "beanie baby", or "MLM beauty product". How is the market for NFTs any different from these essentially ponzi-scheme markets?

"NFTs allow digital artists to profit from their work!"

I mean, sure, but again, they are selling digital signatures with no inherent value that they need to "make a market for". The money they are making isn't because of their art, it is because their sales skills allow them to convince greater fools that inherently worthless digital signatures are actually worth something.

Would we say "selling stars enables amateur astronomers to profit from their work"? Or would we rather say selling stars enables scammers to scam people who don't know any better? Or charitably that selling stars enables charitable people to donate money to whoever is selling the "star", both parties to the transaction recognizing that there is nothing of value being exchanged.

The latter would be forgivable but it also seems highly unlikely there would be a large market of altruistic donators wanting to provide patronage specifically via NFTs. We have a large and robust financial system that is perfectly capable of facilitating low/no-cost donations. It seems more likely that illegitimate or shady capital needs ways to achieve liquidity and legitimacy. And the whole "supporting artists"/"allowing artists to prosper" narrative is a fantastic (and sufficiently complex) cloak that would achieve that while avoiding scrutiny.

tl;dr When a market for an inherently valueless, infinitely reproducible resource pops up out of nowhere and begins to rapidly inflate, it seems likely there's some sketchy stuff going on under the hood.

“The money they are making isn't because of their art...”

Yeah you lost me there we must have radically different exposures to NFT art because the stuff i see is magical. Not sure what you’re looking at but you should check out Hic Et Nunc, OBJKt and my fav - FXhash which is a generative art market on Tezos.

A lot of things you’ve said can be true and simultaneously we could also have a healthy global digital art market growing under our noses for the first time in human history.

> global digital art market

but that market isnt selling art - it's selling the signature for a piece that is infinitely reproducible. if i was unscrupulous, i could just pirate the art, and forget about the signature, and the artist has no recourse but to sue me for piracy.

how the signature plays into this i dont know, but it seems that i can entirely ignore the signature if i want the art.

You can’t pirate the art since it’s not copy protected. NFTs are not meant and I think should not be meant to be used as copy protection. It’s DRM without enforcing scarcity , since it does not prevent copying and redistribution of the artwork.

If you mean that you can just re upload the art somewhere and mint NFTs under false pretenses, I expect this to (hopefully) be solved soon.

NFTs are an authentication mechanism for provenance/authenticity but it is not meant to prevent others from looking at the art.

But you can fund artists already without a blockchain behind... the copyright part, well, the product is valid inside that blockchain. Do we have a way to protect copies of that item in other blockchains?
Digital art seems to be a narrow definition.

In the Philippines, people have been making money playing crypto games such as Axie Infinity. Before you can make money, you have to buy 3 Axie toons, which are NFT assets. Because many Filipinos can no longer afford the toons, people have created "scholar" programs where Axie owners can share usage of their inventory in return for a percentage of earnings. I could talk to Filipinos about this all day and the words "art" and "NFT" would even come up.

I think it's more correct to simply say that NFTs are simply a record on a blockchain. As with Bitcoin, it's just another application.

If you don't understand NFTs, that's fine. Maybe you're not meant to understand them. Maybe you're not the audience. Maybe there's something shady going on. We live in a big world with lots of languages and cultures. You won't understand all of them.

Sorry for the rambling reply. Christmas break hangover. ;)

> solved a big problem for digital artists who can now make money for their art instead of having to shill for brands or make trash to fund what they really love

And created an entirely new one: people selling other people's art for hundreds of thousands of dollars. What a great system.

Forgeries in art are not novel. Digital makes it easier, same way it makes lots of things easier. Technical solutions seem likely.
This is the most cogent explanation I've read so far. An NFT token basically serves as a counterfit-proof declaration that artifact X is worth $N, at least to one buyer. It's sort of like Patreon for rich people, with the proviso that there will only be one patron at a time.
This isn't even true. Because I can own both the selling and buying account and artificially "purchase" said item publicly. Even the price can't be trusted.
You think fraud in the art world is unusual? It’s a deeply corrupt place. Money laundering is the norm not the exception, even at big auctions of physical art.
Usually you pay for a serial number loosely related to a jpg which may or may not still be hosted on the internet. Great for the seller, perhaps not so great for the buyer.
I realize that most people here who ask what NFT is, actually is not asking what NFT is. They are referring to whether there is truly a market for it; and if it is web3, they have doubts whether the broad market is going to accept it. (I'm one of them :D)
You get the right to say I own this image, jpeg , your ownership is listed on a block chain, it s ridiculous since anyone can copy the image and download it since I can get a cd music disc and copy it and rip it there's no record of who buys music cds in a store It makes no sense to me in that it's just a line of code on a block chain But then digital games earn far more than people buying games on physical discs epic is earning billions selling emotes dance skins etc in fortnite If I buy a weapon skin in call of duty vanguard what use will it be to me in 4 years time when my console no longer works and I no longer play call of duty I can't display it or use it or sell it to anyone and its of no use outside the Xbox live network In theory if you buy a nft you could sell it to someone in a few years like people pay 1000s for an old game company's will probably set up a platform if you buy an image from ubisoft for example of some icon weapon etc you can sell it to anyone whether they play that game or not Yes it's good for digital artists but it's really bad for the environment as it takes megawatts of energy to make nfts and keep the blockchain updated equivalent to say burning or using barrels if oil

But we are in a surreal world or a digital gold rush, If you say we are on the block chain selling nfts digital currency blah blah etc you, ll get interest from investors your stock might go up . news headlines on tech websites The potential return could be great and how much does it cost to make digital images put em on a private block chain etc not much A nft is simply an image jpeg etc with a digital record signature recorded on a block chain digital database that can be inspected is tamper proof as it's verified on many different computers, The mystery is why pay 1000s of dollars for a nft If you want to support an artist use patreon or pay a subscription or send them money or buy their merch

You could buy weapon skins emotes costumes 5 years ago in games without the need to use blockkchain Your items are linked to your steam psn or Xbox live username Gaming company's already have databases of all the games and items you buy online

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Why would you buy a Gucci bag when any other bag can hold your belongings too? You're going to pay 10x more for a bag because it's constructed a little bit better? No. There's a reason they plaster their logos all over those things. It's so you can show others you're wealthy enough to afford Gucci.

Think of NFTs like digital Gucci and Prada.

They are used for social status signaling. This is very important to some to show elevated importance and wealth. For example Jay-Z bought a $120K CryptoPunk NFT and used it for his Twitter profile photo.

Some NFTs can also get you into exclusive clubs and parties. Again, signaling. But now you get to hobnob with other high net worth individuals. This too has a lot of value for some.

It's a tale as old as time, just in the digital world. Maybe it's just some fad that will fizzle out. Regardless, if so then those who can afford this will move on to buy something else to signal their wealth and eliteness.

Besides all of this, they're used for speculation and money laundering.

Source: someone I know who makes and sells NFTs

Thank you. Yes, quite similar to modern art. We may be in a bubble now, but in the future some pieces will retain their value. I hope no one loses too much from this.
https://danieltfh.substack.com/p/blockchain-is-awkward-becau...

NFT is made for digital entities not humans.

Blockchain is a fancy linked list. I don't understand why this religion around a data structure. Atleast if you all want to spiritually devote to something consider the fact we are creating and mass producing logic gates with light and some chemicals.
it's not just a linked-list - it's an immutable linked list which has a consensus protocol that does not require a central trusted party to enforce this consensus. This has some value - one should not dismiss it by reduction to absurdio.
Of course it has value. Still a linked list. Stacks have more value, and I don't see anyone selling me systems cause they use stacks.