Not just lockdowns, but the cancellation of physical activity programs. This has disproportionately affected lower-income populations as well. Many of the community and activity centers have closed throughout the pandemic, while wealthier private programs have remained open.
I’ve pondered this on occasion. In this era of people in their 80s holding many of the major positions in government and business in the US, I wonder whether this was their final attempt to prevent transferring power onto the newer generations. I’m not saying this was a conscious strategy, but it certainly was a very interesting phenomenon especially after listening to Eric Weinstein decry the lack of generational transfer in the US.
I’d rather be governed by people who have 65 years of experience with life, than by people who snort coke at 40 to be the shark they’ve always wanted. Politicians never seem to take correct decisions anyway.
In our world, we often assume old people have wrong opinions. The core, though, is that they were betrayed more often than us, so they are less prone to fall into the next rhetoric trap.
It's seems they get set in their ways and don't take action to make positive changes either. Never mind the next rhetoric trap, they're still in the first rhetoric trap...
Maybe all of this is a little bit of ageism, but we see that on the opposite end if the age spectrum too and I guess moving to a competency based test isn't practical.
Dont forget the US Supreme court where you literally cling to your job till you die. Those judges are one of the most selfish and egoistic people on earth.
They kind of have that in China for public officials, if I'm not mistaken, and it's a big thing that Xi is the first of their leaders in a long time who seems to ignore it. On further research it's a rule imposed back in 2002 [1]:
> In 2002, then-President Jiang Zemin tried to clear the ranks at the top of the party by instituting retirement age limits: 68 for top leaders and 65 for senior level officials. That rule has been followed with varying degrees of success. Mr Jiang himself delayed his own retirement. He stayed on as the chairman of China's military for two years until 2004 after relinquishing his other positions to his successor, Hu Jintao.
NOMINATION age between is 58-67. Lower for deputy / provincial levels. Provincial leaders has to retire by 60-65. National leaders have no formal retirement age, but are expected to retire at 70-75. There's also other norms like "seven up, eight down" for standing committee. Xi hasn't broken any age limit rules / norms so far, despite heavy speculation (Qang Qishan in 2017). I would say age limit is treated also sacricant vs term limits, which doesn't even apply to the most important positions for ruling PRC in case of Xi - general secretary, chairman of PLA. There's no good reason for west to throw conniptions over Xi being a dictator for life for another 5-7 years.
Both are true. Fiscal and monetary stimulus drove financial assets owned mostly by 40+ and retirees to the moon. House prices have become more unaffordable just as millennials (already saddled with college debt) are getting ready to buy their first homes. Inflation has eaten into real wages even with increases.
We also locked up an entire generation of zoomers in a house for two years. I was all for lockdowns in early COVID since we didn't know what we were dealing with, but we kept schools closed for far, far too long.
Assets going up in value isn't really a wealth transfer by itself. The buyer is just exchanging a lot more cash for an asset worth a lot more. Their wealth doesn't change overall. Rents are a different story perhaps.
The unfair property taxes in California and similar states is certainly wealth transfer though, which got vastly more unfair.
Central bank balance sheet coupled with debt monetization debases fiat. That means if I worked for an hour and made $10 and your house goes up by 30%, I can buy less house while you can borrow against your house at low interest rates to buy more financial assets or even my time.
It's a transfer from those who have a high fraction of their net worth in cash equivalents to those whose cash fraction is low or even negative. Nobody actually has a million dollars (well, maybe except for some who have a lot of laundering ahead of them?), but plenty of smallish "emergency funds" or "future downpayments" in deprecating savings accounts.
And a transfer from those earning salaries as well, even if the salaries keep up with inflation (due to the Cantillon effect - the holders of capital will have access to the money first, so they can use it before it's "fully devalued", versus wage indexing which comes later).
It is actually a wealth transfer. Think of houses as denominated not in USD, but in labor hours (let's say median wage). If the house price appreciates in labor hours, that is actually a wealth transfer from those performing labor to those holding on to capital (and vice versa).
In reality it's a little bit more complicated since the financing cost of the house has to be considered (principal + interest over the lifetime of the loan), instead of the notional value of the house (and refinancing throws another wrench into the equation).
But as a first order approximation, if houses got more expensive in labor-hours then that's a transfer from labor to capital (and a "hidden" tax on anyone holding USD).
So labor is wealth now? This is the same argument again. I could also discover oil on my property, or build a bigger house on it with my own labor, or all the other houses could get destroyed in an earthquake. Or, on the other side, someone could invent a new process or tool that makes your skills obsolete. Or a million immigrants could show up and bid labor prices down. These all change the amount of labor I will want in return for my house. But none are wealth transfer. Labor is how wealth is produced but it is not wealth itself.
Yes, real wealth (and paper wealth) shifts around constantly depending on external factors, including all of the factors you listed above. Wealth is just optionality - if my house is worth $1M I have more options than if the my house is worth $500K, even if it is the same exact house.
Yes, labor is how wealth is produced, but in a sense, an individual's labor is more than that: a person's unrealized wealth is the discounted future value of their lifetime income minus necessary survival expenses. That's not a constant number - it depends on the individual's choices, but nevertheless, that is some number. And that number has some associated optionality.
If we increase the price of houses, the optionality associated with that future stream of earnings decreases, and therefore I believe that wealth has actually been transferred (since the optionality of the homeowner increases)
> Yes, labor is how wealth is produced, but in a sense, an individual's labor is more than that: a person's unrealized wealth is the discounted future value of their lifetime income minus necessary survival expenses. That's not a constant number - it depends on the individual's choices, but nevertheless, that is some number. And that number has some associated optionality.
Economics is the study of scarcity. Wealth is real stuff like the house.
"Unrealized wealth" or "The potential to create wealth" or "the future value of your skills" shifts around, sure. Not the same thing as actual wealth though. And these shifts of theoretical outcomes are not transfers of wealth. This sounds like straining to fit something to emotional language.
Honestly, blame the far left. This was their totem and they’ve been staunch about it. I consider myself a democratic socialist, but planting the flag of progressives into the dirt at the line of perpetual lockdowns was a _huge_ and likely catastrophic misstep, both politically and (more importantly) societally.
The assets went up because the US economy is healthy. This is a much better alternative than 2008 where we failed to fix deflation. Basically printing money is awesome.
> Inflation has eaten into real wages even with increases.
Interestingly not true for homeowners because of fixed-rate mortgages. Or people not currently purchasing a car.
A lot of them give it to assisted living facilites jsut before that happens. There is a huge industry around siphoning off assets from the elderly before they die.
worth watching Netflix "I Do Care". Sadly its very much like in the movie. At least here in USA (source: friend of family works in a assisted living facility and sees very bad stuff daily!)
Depends. A neighbor hated his family that he purposely caused his home to go into probate just to slow them down.
Most of the time the money is passed onto the next generation. But here's the current problem: the boomers, as a generation, have a lot of assets, specifically housing, locked up as rentals. This has caused house to shoot up (though it is not the only factor).
If the boomers die, I suspect that a large number of homes would become available at reasonable prices within the year of the death. For example, my parents own multiple rental homes (only of one of which they constructed for the express purpose of renting on a plot of land that the city thought was undevelop-able). When they die, my sister and I will sell the properties. While she lives near them, she doesn't want to manage them, and I don't since I live far away.
By allowing the boomers to live longer, these assets remain locked up. They can continue to rent seek at the expense of the generations that came after them. This means that multiple generations, particularly millennials and zoomers are screwed.
You can contract out the management. They will find tenants, deal with leases, collecting rent, evictions when needed, maintenance, everything. They take a good chunk of your cash flow, but that would allow you to keep the properties as an asset if you want to.
This is a bad take. At most, Covid was a wealth transfer from governments and middle-class to many lucky corporations and wealthy investors. But in reality, everyone is suffering.
Let's say the opposite reaction happened and we prioritized heathy youths over vulnerable seniors. There would have been orders of magnitude more deaths by now, society would have collapsed in some places temporarily or permanently as healthcare systems break down entirely.
The wealth transfer from the youth to the elderly is nothing new, it's been pretty continuous and generally correlates with elderly population. Covid just put pressure on the whole system.
Is it really a bad take? my parents & aunt had 28,34% gains respectively on the value of their main properties in just 1 year. I'm going to have to pay for that (or settle for a lot less living space) if i want to own anything here in the future. Definitely feels like a wealth transfer.
Yeah, inflation tends do that. The pandemic has been good fuel for inflation and continues to do so, but the fire would have burnt anyways. The fire is monetary policy trying to force growth no matter what. And why is growth forced? Because it's the only way to allow the poor to slightly improve without questioning the endless accumulation of the wealthy.
> The pandemic has been good fuel for inflation and continues to do so
Not just some abstract "pandemic" but specific policies adopted by specific people. Don't turn it into a Hegelian providence as if no one is responsible and it's a self propagating process that would happen regardless.
- people couldn't go on vacation so they all switched to buying durable goods at the same time. (that's why supply chains don't hold up, it's a crisis of abundance not deprivation.)
- workers in some industries died (like meatpacking) or quit (like restaurants).
- we haven't built enough houses since 1970 and everyone decided to buy a house at once.
It's not because of stimulus though; making people poorer so they can't buy cars is not a good solution to cars being too expensive.
There is no evidence society would have collapsed. Many countries do not have the health infrastructure the US has and have not undergone societal collapse. Yes more elderly would have died. More people with comorbities would have died. But societal collapse?
The shutdown lasted for far too long. Mock Florida all you want, but they weathered the pandemic far better than many states with strict lockdown regimes (California/New York). Consider Florida has one of (if not the) largest senior populations in the US too.
Why do you assume I am referring to the US? Maybe for you it's normal for there to be looting and rampant crime in the face of crisis or emergency scenarios but I don't think that speaks for the rest of the world.
> Many countries do not have the health infrastructure the US has and have not undergone societal collapse.
What does this mean? We have universal healthcare and in my city emergency services are so overwhelmed and overworked the wait time for the past day is over an hour. You could probably rob a storefront in open daylight and get away with it right now.
The US is the highly developed country poster child for fucking up handling Covid. Other countries don't need whatever impressive health infrastructure you're alluding to because they responded better in the first place.
Finally, I don't have a horse in this race besides not letting people die, but I'd like to point out that Florida current situation looks like hot garbage to me. You couldn't pay me to go there right now.
> We have universal healthcare and in my city emergency services are so overwhelmed and overworked the wait time for the past day is over an hour.
That tells more about your healthcare system than about anything else. My city had virtually no lockdowns (but 2 weeks at the beginning until the measure became really unpopular), nobody ever cared about distancing or masking, the vaccination rates are low as hell, schools and businesses work as usual and yet here we are safe and sound. No societal collapse you promise, no mass extinction, nothing. Some people in their 80s died which is a tragedy since that had never happened before (aren't people supposed to live forever). But other than that, life as usual. What are we doing wrong?
Locations with low level of travel had less severe infections. For example countries in Eastern Europe got the wave later and it was smaller compared to Italy, UK, etc.
That doesn't explain it. Add in the other states with similar percent elderly populations to Florida and Florida still has a far worse delta wave than they do. And its not vaccination status because Florida has good vaccination rates among the older people.
You could also look at per county data to compare counties in Florida with counties with similar demographics in other states, or dive into the breakdowns that states give by age group.
Do all that and it will become clear that Florida's terrible delta wave outcome is because the state government largely stopped taking COVID preventative measures, and actively tried to stop local governments and businesses from doing so.
No, covid is the common name for covid-19, the disease pathology that happens when you are infected with SARS-CoV-2 virus and your body fails to control it.
I'd say a wealth transfer from the poor to the wealthy. Inflation + restrictions has dramatically exacerbated inequality, as have the expectations we put on the working poor - leave home to deliver my food etc but don't you dare enjoy yourself. It's a coincidence that this also corresponds to transferring from young to old people.
Overall, if you have a big house, country cottages, and lots of investments, you got a lot richer in the last couple years. If you live in a small apartment and work a low skill job, you have to keep doing that, for way less pay after inflation, have to find a way to look after your kids at home, and can't go outside except to work, because "we're all in this together"
The whole episode has been a serious step back in human equality
Stimulus and unemployment increases raised overall take-home pay during the year for many lower middle class and poor. For the very poor, increases in SNAP benefits as part of the stimulus outpaced food price inflation, but almost no articles about food inflation mention it. Unemployment is as low as it has been since 1999.
There are legit shortages driving inflation in big categories, but wages are up too. Average wages in non-supervisory roles are up over 10% compared to two years ago, restaurant roles nearly 14%.
Inflation directly hurts people with lots of savings in low yield accounts, not the working poor. That's not to say they did well compared to the rich in the pandemic, just that inflation taken as a single factor doesn't single them out.
Your implication is that the "full staffing" makes up for the fact that inmates can't leave nor have anyone visit. In which case, there is little difference between a care facility under lockdown, and a prison.
A friend's grandmother died alone, without having seen friends or family for months, shut in her room in a care facility during 2020.
I suppose you are one of the people who would also tell us that house arrest is "not hard".
Reconsidering, it is fair to say prison is a fully staffed assisted living facility (excepting when prison is assisting with the dying).
My implication though was that elderly were not "isolated from any contact with people they depend on for basic survival needs" in cases where they were put in assisted living facilities, because they provide for basic survival needs.
> I suppose you are one of the people who would also tell us that house arrest is "not hard".
It seems we have forgotten that ultimately, "basic survival needs" for humans (and especially vulnerable humans) includes social contact. You can't call infrequent visits from a staff member while covered from head to toe in various inffectual PPE, "social contact".
I think the worst of the isolation was for older people who were living alone, not in any facilities, but regularly received help from younger friends and family.
But if you think that most "living facilities", even when "fully staffed" are a good place to leave an older person without regular visits, I am going to disagree with you.
This assumes there’s ever been “youth wealth”. Boomers have been systematically disenfranchising millennials on down since they’ve gotten into power. They’re probably one of the most selfish and entitled generations that have ever existed.
> Researchers, though, cautioned against drawing direct lines between these spikes and conditions brought on by the coronavirus pandemic, which disrupted nearly every aspect of U.S. life starting in the middle of last March.
> A heightened appreciation about mental health in 2020 might have prompted parents to get their children mental health treatment, they said.
> “Conversely, by spending more time at home together with young persons, adults might have become more aware of suicidal thoughts and behaviors, and thus been more likely to take their children to the ED," according to the report.
Happy to see a correlation != causation disclaimer.
Parents who were also trying to hold down jobs. At the time, my partner and I had a 1 year old and were both working. It was incredibly difficult, stressful, and 100% not sustainable. We cracked after a few weeks. We also strongly believe that just putting young children in front of screens for hours at a time is detrimental to their development, and did not do that like so many other parents (who all justified it because they "had to" to keep working. That is another whole debate - I am sure that not many people would have gone to the effort we did during lockdowns and restrictions to shield our kids from the poor parenting practices that are now widespread).
Also, having young children is incredibly isolating, and already something like a lockdown in itself. Humans in that position are supposed to go out and see as many people as they can, usually in the form of meeting other parents at their houses, cafes, parks, etc. All of that was illegal, at least where I lived. My blood still boils thinking of how horribly harmful that was.
Humans are social creatures. How are lockdowns and social distancing not causal? There's a reason long distance relationships fail and solitary confinement is an ultimate punishment.
Add to this doomsday news on loop, confusing messaging on vaccines.
I also have too, too much anecdata to counter this.
I spent time helping families during the COVID crisis. The amount of confusion and uncertainty generated by the pandemic hit many families hard especially in states with strict lockdown regimes.
I have friends who work as RCs at a top university: they are swamped with students devastated by the pandemic who are uncertain of what their futures hold given the gap.
I have friends whose four year old has began pulling her hair out for no reason early on in the pandemic. They started taking her to a private prek that was opened. It stopped.
> There's a reason long distance relationships fail
???
“ Research has even shown that long distance couples tend to have the same or more satisfaction in their relationships than couples who are geographically close, and higher levels of dedication to their relationships and less feelings of being trapped.”
I was looking at a variety of discussions on age-gapped relationships and have noticed the same, people blame the relationship failing on the age gap and the younger persons own admissions about how they look at it differently, instead of the general distribution of all relationships failing
People basically get what they want tk hear out of it, instead of checking whether the same standard yields different results elsewhere
They could be causal, but the effect the parent described is real that messes up the data. Mental health has become a thing that’s allowed to be talked about and taken seriously in literally the last few years. It’s a massive and extremely positive societal shift that shines a light on how absolutely awful school is even in non-pandemic times. I had severe depression in my teens and it wasn’t until I tried to take my own life that the adults in my life at the time even acknowledged it. I had friends at school who were cutting themselves, emotionally dependent on weed, drinking themselves to blackout every weekend, starving themselves to death, throwing up in the bathroom, and studying/working themselves to physical illness because of lack of sleep. Nobody cared.
There is no doubt that that the pandemic is making things so so much worse but there’s also a danger in scapegoating it and then being collectively “shocked” when it doesn’t get better when things go back to normal.
I think the poster's point was about general data reporting, not specific to the situation. If you're going to use data to argue something, you need to be careful not to overstate what the data says. And the worst misuses of stats are when they fit intuition or anecdotal experience. The vaccine-autism argument that won't die is not the result of a bad study, but of autism symptoms typically arising right at vaccination age. Then people did a study looking for this commonly-believed "causation" and misused the data they got to make a case they wanted.
A ton of things happened to many kids during the pandemic.
0) Physically away from school
1) Poor learning experience
2) Spending more time with parents
3) Relatives getting sick and dying
4) Dire medical news everywhere
5) Dire political news everywhere
6) Dire environmental news everywhere
7) Many parents lost jobs
8) Many parents lost income
9) Children pressured to (not) take vaccines
10) People (not) wearing masks / Kids pressured to (not) wear masks
11) Away from friends
12) Evictions
13) Excessive drug use
14) Excessive social media use
15) Affected by evolving social justice issues
So there could well be some causation there, but which things are causing what is not immediately clear.
> Conversely, by spending more time at home together with young persons, adults might have become more aware of suicidal thoughts and behaviors, and thus been more likely to take their children to the ED
Is ED the emergency department? Or something else?
I'm not even a parent, but I've been incredibly distressed by this trend. Several of my good friends have had their daughters attempt suicide (luckily, none have succeeded, although 2 extremely close calls). It's been utterly gut-wrenching to watch these talented, kind, ambitious girls spiral into shells of their former selves.
Luckily, all my friends are fellow techies who are upper-middle class, and can afford medication and therapy (and in one case, out-of-state long-term hospitalization.) But even with insurance, they're looking at many thousands of dollars of treatment.
It makes me sick to my stomach to think of all the lower-class parents who are terrified of their kids killing themselves, but can't afford therapy or psychiatry visits, and can't get pro-bono help (apparently the wait lists are several months long in many cities.)
It's past time the West reckons with our mental health crisis. Why is it that we're the wealthiest nations in the world, yet our kids are more stressed and depressed than kids in third-world countries? I think society will only become more and more unstable until we spend time seriously addressing that question and adjust our culture accordingly.
medication isn't going to fix that. our society is infected at every level. Urban planning is setup so you can't get anywhere without a car so kids are stuck online all day. We don't have public spaces where you aren't expected to spend money. Our food is tainted and industrialized to have less nutrition.
> Urban planning is setup so you can't get anywhere without a car so kids are stuck online all day
The reason kids were stuck online all day over the past two years is not urban planning; it is because kids were not allowed to go to school or socialize.
You can make claims against the base rate this way, but not against the increase over the past two years.
(also, I have no reason to think that urban kids are in a better mental state than suburban ones this pandemic, and have anecdotal reasons to think the opposite).
Kids did quite a bit of reduced quantity (in terms of heads, not hours) in-person socialising in places that #1 still have places where kids can hang out without it being some form of formal kids entertainment establishment that always ends up borderline factory farming when seen through a pandemic filter and #2 kept their infection waves in check with early quick nuanced NPI instead of waiting until only the big hammer could help.
OK, but the urban centers were the places where playgrounds were taped off, malls were closed, coffeeshops were takeout-only and there's no other good place for kids to aggregate.
Suburban areas with yards and neighborhood playgrounds not owned by the city are were kids actually could and did socialize during the pandemic.
> #2 kept their infection waves in check with early quick nuanced NPI instead of waiting until only the big hammer could help
No place succeeded at this, other than small island nations. This is a fake narrative.
Urban centers used to have kids congregating in non-purpose built places all the time, before that was all stratified away. That's precisely what GP was saying I think.
#2 wasn't about suppressing the virus to zero (true, no place succeeded at, not even China), it as about avoiding long stretches of strong countermeasures by applying lighter countermeasures earlier. They still required some escalation for maybe a few weeks but that's far from what people had who had to dig themselves out from underneath a massive wave they ran into at full speed.
I understand what you are claiming, but it's a narrative not based on what actually happened.
The places that locked down earlier stayed locked down, and the places that locked down later re-opened earlier. No state stayed locked down to "dig themselves out of a hole"; that's not how any of the waves played out.
Whole countries locked down earlier, cutting the waves and death count to negligible numbers. They opened up in summer 2020, but later closed early again.
I think this take is a little extreme. I grew up in a very small town. You couldn’t get to the city without driving 30 minutes to a bus stop. I didn’t like it very much, and really looked forward to moving to a city.
However, there were a plethora of parks, ponds, baseball and basketball courts, skateboarding parks, and an ice rink nearby that were somewhat walkable.
Yeah I spent a little too much time on the computer but I did have a social life and went outside a lot doing all kinds of fun.
I think you are underestimating how much fun kids can have with not very much. I agree that we have serious cultural problems but I think urban planning is the wrong culprit here.
I think at least some of it is lazy parenting who are content with just giving their kids an iPad or throwing them in front of the TV for entertainment.
You know what my sister did with her friends for “fun”? They wrote and acted out plays. This wasn’t that long ago, it was in the 90s.
The issue is that it's too easy to forgo all of that and scroll through tiktok for 12+ hours a day, per day (school days included). I'm not exaggerating with that number, either. When you literally have nothing else to do, you'll find something enriching to do. But when there's an easy, lazy outlet, kids will go to that. We literally cannot say the same about kids a few decades ago, either. No one spent every waking moment watching Sunday cartoons or reading the paper, and reading that retort of "well we've ALWAYS done things like that" is so off-putting because it's NEVER been this extreme.
Funny thing is I just had to scroll back to the top to remind myself of what the subject of this discussion actually is. Because I was looking at a Discord chat in between reading comments here. Ahem...
That's very true! It's not just kids. However (and maybe this is disingenuous) I believe that HN is both more enriching (I learn new things every single time whereas tiktok is mostly mind-numbing videos that no one will remember in six months) and less addictive (relative to something like tiktok). It's still social media, but it really is nothing like tiktok. Ask your kids for their screentime, or ask which of their friends has the highest. I bet it's at least 10 hours, and the likelihood of it being tiktok or instagram is very high.
"more enriching" is how we fool ourselves to continue diverting our attention - speaking for myself - it's just math on youtube, it's just stackoverflow/programming, etc. Unfortunately the cycle of infinite information needs to be throttled I think.
Again, maybe this is just me being disingenuous, but I'd disagree - while your examples may be used as a time sink, I believe there is definitely a difference between scrolling on tiktok, and watching math on youtube. You're probably far more likely to use and improve your brain and its critical thinking skills.
> The issue is that it's too easy to forgo all of that and scroll through tiktok for 12+ hours a day
That's because social media is deliberately designed to be addictive. Zuckerberg et al know this, but don't care, because all they care about is their proftis.
Issue here, imo is also the supervision requirement. The kids are not allowed to go outside independently without parent until they are basically teenagers.
Parents have stuff to do and also nothing to do on playground. So they stop taking kids there once those are over toddler age and won't destroy house put of sheer energy. Playgrouds are boring and 9-11 years old truly have nothing to do there without friends group.
So 6-10 years old kids are rarely outside. They know how to have fun at home and school, but they have no community in park and don't know games. Then they are 14-16 and everyone is like "why don't they go outside? there is basketball court". But shooting balls alone is fun for like two days and they don't known to have fun there.
Had many friends in my neighborhood who either went to the same school or played the same sport that were walking distance. But yeah there were a few friends who lived on the other side of town where I’d need a ride to get to
This take is not extreme at all. Everyone with an ounce of intuition knows it. The only people who could be happy in this society are narcissists or autists (nothing against the latter). Even if you are lucky enough to find what you love you’d have to be even luckier to have it be able to make enough to keep up with all the rentiness of it all. I guess you might also find who you love and have someone to suffer with.
To me this is honestly more depressing than climate change and just as depressing as global poverty. We can make sure civilization keeps existing, we can stop exploiting the global south, but even then the best-off people in the world will still often feel that life is not worth living.
I’m glad there are people for whom medication and therapy works. I hope more people can get access to medication. I’m also sad that there isn’t more being done to address root causes.
>Urban planning is setup so you can't get anywhere without a car so kids are stuck online all day.
This wasn't a problem in the 70s and 80s. Kids would just ride their bikes everywhere.
>We don't have public spaces where you aren't expected to spend money.
Apart from playgrounds, parks, libraries, community groups, all kinds of events... I don't think we've ever had more free public services than in the 21st century.
>Our food is tainted and industrialized to have less nutrition.
This is true for processed food, but we still have less malnutrition (macro and micro) today compared to any point in the 20th century.
I think it's really easy to pick the popular talking points from one's tribe and pose them as the problem/solution in any particular situation. If the goal is to actually identify/solve the problem, though, this more often than not is ineffective.
For some context, in the book Omnivores Dilemma, author Michael Pollan states that an orange that our grandparents ate as kids had 5x the nutritional value as an orange today.
Happened to a friend at work. Quiet neighborhood, the park is literally on the other side of the lazy street. He was watching his kid from his window when another parent called the police for an unsupervised child. Cue a real legal battle where they could have lost custody of their kid.
The other big thing that caused kids to go inside was fear of abduction. 24/7 cable news, starting in the 80s, was constantly stoking fear of this.
In the 80's I remember watching an Oprah (while sick at home, watching TV was the way to get well, because it I hated it so much) on Adam Walsh's murder. His body was found near were I lived a few years before. I believe this was the beginning of the "your kids will be kidnapped and murdered" hysteria.
Parents reacted to this pulling their kids closer to home and when video games became a thing, it wasn't even hard to keep them inside anymore. Now, with cell phones, the battle is completely lost. These devices give kids (and everyone that uses them) little squirts of pleasure all day long.
I've been an avid walker for 26 years. Not until the pandemic did I ever see people outside (kids or adults), except people walking a dog to let it crap somewhere. I guess that's one good side effect of it.
The problem with framing this as a mental health crisis is that it implies the solution is in mental health services. Is there a mental health crisis in North Korea? No their lives are just terrible. Therapy isn’t going to help people in North Korea. Similarly the worse material conditions are in the West the more people are going to kill themselves. I think it’s about 200 a day in the US and it has been for many many years. The fact that this is not talked about on the news is an example of one of the negative material conditions in the West that result in worse health outcomes. It is depressing to live in a society where everything is controlled by rich people who torture the population, and the answer is not therapy or drugs.
I disagree, the goal of therapy (should) be to make the patient more self-efficacious, NOT about making them happy or instilling the right mental gymnastics to feel OK about their situation. The more self-efficacious a person is, the more likely they are to figure out what is causing them problems and find meaning in their life by rising to the challenge and organizing action with either themselves or within their peer group in order to deal with their situation that causes them and their peers distress. A depressed, non-self-efficacious person will be less capable of figuring out and making plans to deal with situations that cause them distress.
Would a mentally healthy, self-efficacious population be more or less likely realize their problems and organize collective action to correct their situation?
> Is there a mental health crisis in North Korea? No their lives are just terrible.
Do they even have poor mental health there? It's quite likely, but most people throughout history lived in terrible conditions, sometimes resorting to cannibalism way back in the day[1], and probably did not have depression from it. It's all about relative expectations.
Are you a mental health professional? Seems you're overconfident that therapy and drugs aren't the solution to mental health problems, given those are the two main treatments used by doctors who are actually experts on the matter.
>Seems you're overconfident that therapy and drugs aren't the solution to mental health problems
And seems like mental health professionals are overconfident that their methods work. And the evidence that they do is weak, especially for the talk therapy.
This is circular reasoning. "Only mental health professionals can have an opinion on the matter because mental health professionals say so, and the opinion of mental health professionals is authoritative because it's a mental health issue". Why can't we disagree that it's solely a mental health matter?
It isn't even a matter of being able to pay for therapy or psychiatric visits. The mental health system has been overwhelmed throughout the pandemic. There simply aren't enough mental health professionals to help the overwhelming need of individuals throughout the pandemic. You could be waiting 3+ months before you can even be seen by someone, especially if on a state or low-income health insurance plan.
It was like that before the pandemic, TBH. We tried to get counseling for one of my kids for suspected depression and it was a complete shitshow. Therapists and psychologists were booked out for months and unless you were actively threatening suicide you could not get anyone to pay attention.
3 months right now is extremely fast to see someone in a clinic with a social work degree. Was told the actual Psychiatrists or Psychologists are completely full for an indefinite amount of time (As in years on the wait list).
And this is paying out of pocket.
And we were told directly from the clinics themselves, that the pandemic has led to an explosion in the number of clients.
>OK. But doing so would admit that our entire system is broken.
I don't think this can even be argued against at this point. A truckload of societies in the west would be facing absolute collapse right now if it wasn't for immigration.
In a version of reality in which we can't afford to just import as much cheap labour as we want, a good part of western culture would be facing extreme turmoil and our hegemony would most probably end. Hell we are pretty much assuming China will explode from inner conflict at some point because otherwise that hegemony is lost either way.
I don't think they implied that. I doubt OP meant anything by it; they also refer to their "good" friends, do you also question whether OP is ignoring suicide when it happens to (children of) ordinary friends?
The distiction between sons and daughters is interesting though, because women are statistically much more likely to attempt suicide, whereas men are more likely to succeed at it.
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."
"Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead."
Edit: you've been breaking the site guidelines a ton lately. That's not cool, and will eventually get your account banned. If you'd please review the guidelines and stick to them when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
This reporting doesn't make clear that the increase was almost entirely among girls. There was little change for boys.
> There was a 22.3 percent spike in ER trips for potential suicides by children aged 12 to 17 in summer 2020 compared to 2019.
> The data was particularly alarming among among girls aged 12 to 17. Between Feb. 21 and March 20 this year, emergency department visits for potential suicide attempts were up 50.6 percent compared to the same period in 2019, data showed.
Nowhere? I suspect few people actually read the report [1]. They asked teen girls (and boys) how Instagram made them feel. The most common response for girls was "no effect" 43%, followed by "somewhat better" 29%, then "somewhat worse" at 18%, then "much better" at 8%, and lastly "much worse" at 3%. The media conspicuously ignored that substantially more girls felt that Instagram made them feel better than worse.
I don't trust any research Facebook releases about the impact of their own platform and would take such with a grain of salt. There is no incentive for them to ever release negative results.
You might not trust them, but the quote is taken out of context by the media and whenever it gets regurgitated on the internet. It's used as some kind of a "See, I knew I was correct in disliking them!" idea.
That "much worse" at 3% was represented by a single reply.
When i read about the study my biggest surprise was how poorly it was. A poll with 40 people is so pointless that I don't understand why they didn't hire professionals to do a real survey.
I suspect one reason are online games. Boys are more likely to play them and in lockdown, they were the one of few socialization available.
It does not matter what are reasons for disparity. But, the boys were more likely to continue some unchanged socialization ad they had before. They already had established groups to play with and so on.
2.) It is not socialization with active voice chat. That is more like writing letter or something like that. It will do less to make your brain feel like you have social connection.
The thing that is supposed to make difference (according to psychologist that had talk about social isolation) is talking. People who call have similar psychological results as those heavily socialized. if you write mails a lot, you reassemble lonely people more.
Did you just pin one of the reason for suicides on online games? What is this politician talking points from the early 2000’s?
I promise you kids have been forming groups and have had feelings of exclusion that existed well before online games. The root cause here wouldn’t be online games in of themselves.
No, they did the exact opposite. The proposed the idea that suicide did not increase in boys because they were more likely to have socialization circles around video games.
I literally did the opposite and said that online gaming helped people to socialize in lockdowns. I also made hypothesis it explains some gender disparity in suicides - boys play more likely and it allowed them to keep talking to friends which made them suicide less.
And for the record, I do strongly dislike gaming, surrounding culture and how gamers act when they play more then a little. It just was not my topic now, topic was suicides in covid.
I think one thing that will make the history books is how little innovation or adaptation there was in educational technology, rendering a truly depressing set of prospects for learning over the pandemic. A lot of companies have made a LOT of money in edutech going back to the 90s CDROM days and what do students get when the system escapes these companies's grasp and students need some real imagination put to the matter? A grid of Facetimes and draconian activity surveillance.
What were they supposed to do? They had about two weeks to go from fully in-classroom to fully-remote with no warning, in the middle of the school year. I don't care what kind of technology you have, that is going to be a clusterfuck.
Should we also stratify by Relation to risk, and how do we enforce this ? Also how would policies stratified by age/health work? Only unhealthy or old people need to mask when they go to the store filled with unmasked, Covid-spreading young people?
Masking is fine! Prolonged shutdowns aren't. Anyone who wants to go to work should have been allowed to, others are welcome to isolate.
Special times could have been reserved to allow the elderly/unhealthy/fearful to go shop and take care of themselves. (Costco senior hours?) There are a lot of options.
When has there been a prolonged shutdown? I am in one of the heights of the Covid epidemic and we only shut down once in early 2020. Schools are still in person now at the height of omicron. What’re you talking about?
Australia wasn’t under a prolonged shutdown. They were fully unmasked and having parties over the summer. Movie companies were filming there specifically because of how Covid-free they were. Again, what are you talking about?
How does remote school == prolonged shut down? Los Angeles was having outdoor dining and stuff during that time. It’s clear that schools simply were t prioritized at that time, not that the city as a whole was on lockdown.
Yeah maybe by fall 2020 you could have expected better preparation. On the other hand, I think people kept thinking it would go away over the summer, or we'd just reach herd immunity. I think very few people in summer 2020 thought we'd still be mired in this in 2022 with no end in sight. None of the previous virus scares, SARS, flus, Ebola, Zika, came anywhere close to lasting that long.
We're in the third year of a global pandemic and nothing that is happening now is something that wasn't predicted as a serious possibility.
Pretending everything is fine doesn't make it fine. Acknowledging the situation we're in, and having plan for "rapidly spreading variant that starts impacting kids more" is something that would be an obvious thing for schools to do.
We concretely knew in November this was coming. Again, many people tried to pretend this wasn't happening and brush it off, but there was plenty of time to foresee this situation and plan for it.
The vast majority of people, on all sides of the political spectrum, have aggressively been trying not to see what is happening in front of their eyes. To try to force things to be "normal". If we accepted that we're in a pandemic, and that sometimes we'll have to change our life a bit, we could have easily prepared for this case.
What were they suppposed to do? Of course they had to limp along for a bit, but it's been almost two years now and as far as I've heard (I don't have children), it's status quo where they aren't trying to force kids back into the classroom. Try to remember the first time you heard the term "distance learning." I think it's been at least 10 years for me.
So, I can see that being a problem for kick starting the business, but what about private schools?
It seems like there are tons of them with tons of money managed at the single-school level of scale. Do they just have better software than the public schools? Are they not enough to support edtech companies growing to the size where they can compete for the government contracts? Something else?
What, are there innovations that are gathering dust because of the decision style of a bureaucracy? I find that hard to believe, that new ideas wouldn't have leaked out to the startups in this space (Coursera, etc.). Obviously even the Ubers of Learning aren't doing anythnig different than 5 years ago or we would be seeing Super Bowl ads from them, because the effect and implications would be seismic. Imagine if suddenly classes were able to be as effective as anybody has been wanting, which is to say "noticeably more effective." What if it wasn't a grid of facetimes anymore? I think that would probably be a big deal.
The entire concept of our "education" system is bankrupt. The very idea of keeping an entire age of children in lockstep across multiple subjects regardless of ability stifles actually solving any issues. Why would you expect the very people who perpetuate this injustice to even conceive of a solution let alone implement it?
The staff of a Bible belt school are just as guilty of this as the SF admins removing advanced maths. None understand that computers allow us to promote people upon mastery of a subject (what we actually want) rather than time.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you can find many of those politicians, reporters, and public personalities who supported the invasion of Iraq still slinging their opinions out to the world and receiving lots of attention. Something tells me that this, like many other tragedies and fuck-ups of our time will be memory-holed and we will learn less than nothing in aggregate.
> [...] a virus that was nowhere near a risk to children.
People continuously forget about (or maliciously omit) even a single step beyond someone's infection. One infected person can spread it to others. Even if the individual's risk may be low, soon, you start spreading it to people that are more at risk. Schools can thus become superspreader locations that put their parents and teachers and whatnot at risk. Whether or not everything we did with schools is right, not doing anything would've led to millions of more people dead.
> [...] our hysterical reaction to Covid, [...]
Everyone certainly did some wrong things and arguably are continuing to do so, but "hysterical" is not how I would put it. We were facing a [relatively] unknown virus with poorly-understood effects to this day. We still can't predict who will be affected how by it.
I think this rhetoric is dangerous and some points of it are [to me] blindingly obviously wrong.
Way more people forget about (or aren't even aware of) isanother step beyond someone's infection - the externialities of covid measures. With the trillions of dollars lost, depression, suicide, businesses closed, undiagnosed and untreated illnesses, family feuds over the politicization of covid, delay in children's education and development, and countless other facets, it's not a stretch to say that the damage done by the policies is often worse than the disease. Public officials only care about the single tunnel vision metric of body count even if the cumulative damage of their policies is far worse, and ends in more non-covid deaths and the decimation of countless lives and livelihoods.
It's very true that things like depression, poverty, closing businesses, hunger, children's development being negatively affected, etc. are also externalities of COVID measures. Very true. Probably also true that we're not putting enough thought into them. Hence why I tries to be very careful to not say "everything we did is right". They're probably not. Hindsight is 20/20.
> it's not a stretch to say that the damage done by the policies is often worse than the disease.
I wouldn't be willing to quantify it as "often", but I would definitely agree that "sometimes" it can be worse.
Often enough that two of my family members died due to untreated non-covid ilness (kidney failure and diabetes), an uncle attempted suicide, and a cousin spiraled into depression and was hospitalized. I know dozens who have caught covid, and none were hospitalized. I doubt that I'm that much of an anomaly.
1. Children don't exist in a vacuum. Even if they don't become symptomatic, they can still be a carrier and they can still infect adults that they're in contact with. Should teachers be sacrificing themselves? Should families isolate their children within the house?
2. It's a low risk to healthy children. What do you do for children with other health complications? America has a lot of diabetic children. Covid is also shown to increase the risk of pre-diabetic children becoming diabetic https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-substan...
3. Covid is not a one and done. You get it, and it can have long term lasting effects even if it doesn't kill you. That applies to children as well.
4. Covid spreads very quickly with a relatively high risk to the greater population. Lockdowns were a safety measure at the very least to be able to keep pace with things. It was absolutely the right thing to do till the virus was more understood.
5. As the virus was more understood, it reinforced the above points because covid has very complex side effects
1. There should have been and were lockdowns early in the pandemic. Once vaccines were available teachers should be ready to teach, just like every other worker that interfaces with people. At least teachers see the same people every day unlike grocery store clerks.
2. It's low risk to almost ALL children. The hospitalization rates of children have been around 1 per 1 million at peak infection periods. This is no worse than other diseases and doesn't prompt a special response.
3. Please present evidence of long term effect in a non-negligible percentage of children
You're only focusing on the children, while the post to which you're responding explicitly calls out that they are only a part of the entire system. The fact that they don't get really sick or are asymptomatic is actually really bad when you're trying to reduce transmission.
Prompting the obvious questions (which I don't think have clear answers): How much do we think that it reduced transmission? How much transmission reduction is needed to justify knocking a year of socialising out of of a child's life?
What I'm curious about is why did we see so little effort to keep socializing available to kids without just going back to school? I'm not aware of a single place that made a noticeable effort to e.g encourage small fixed social pods to form, or run outdoor activities after school hours for the kids who wanted to be there, etc. Even among the parents who were basically fulltime campaigning to re-open schools for the sake of mental health, I didn't notice discussion of what they were doing in the meantime, and surely they were doing something.
This is in addition to worse damage that occurs throughout the body to any ACE2 cell, which are found in the brain along with the entire cardiovascular system and every other major organ in the body.
Hospitalizations in children are rising this year because last year they were out of school and NPI safety was much higher than 2021.
What's the proposal here, exactly? Should children be kept in hermetic isolation indefinitely to forestall the possibility of long COVID (at least, until a sufficiently infectious variant comes along that even the Ted Kaczynskis of the world get it)?
There may be ACE2 receptors in the brain but what has never been found in the brain so far is SARS-CoV-2. The spike protein crosses the blood brain barrier in mice, but you also get plenty of that from the vaccines which doesn't seem to concern anyone at all.
With Covid. Not because of Covid. Most children at hospitals with Covid are incidental cases.
Also the long covid figure from children comes from self report. Given the hysteria in some children and some parents I would take this measure with a huge grain of salt.
Protip: don't use emotional Twitter post as your main source of information.
You clearly did not read the report that has proven autoantibodies were detected from mild covid cases associated with long covid symptoms.
How do you explain the rise in children’s hospitalizations in areas with high covid rates?
"A five-fold increase in pediatric admissions in New York City this month. Close to double the numbers admitted in Washington, DC. And nationwide, on average, pediatric hospitalizations are up 48% in just the past week."
"An average of 672 children were being hospitalized every day in the US, as of 2 January - more than double the average just a week before. And the rate is rapidly increasing."
> autoantibodies were detected from mild covid cases associated with long covid symptoms
And? Just because someone has those antibodies doesn't mean he has long-covid.
> How do you explain the rise in children’s hospitalizations in areas with high covid rates?
>"A five-fold increase in pediatric admissions in New York City this month. Close to double the numbers admitted in Washington, DC. And nationwide, on average, pediatric hospitalizations are up 48% in just the past week."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-omicron-variant...
Nothing in the article says because of Covid. And it is very easy to explain in fact. Hospitalizations always surge during holidays. Most notably due to falls and other respiratory viruses such as the flu which is known to be worse in children than covid.
Even so the article cites this data (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admis...) and says: "US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data released Tuesday showed that on average, 305 children have been in the hospital with Covid-19 on any given day over the week that ended Dec. 26.".
That 305 children in all the US.
The other articles you cited use the same deceptive framing.
None of that is relevant or actionable. Everyone including children will be exposed regardless of what we do. Fortunately the vaccines and other treatments are pretty good at preventing severe symptoms.
Do you intend to spend the rest of your life wearing an N95 mask every time you're close to another mammal? Because this respiratory disease isn't going away. You won't be able to avoid it forever.
Vaccines don't absolutely prevent infection. By the time the vaccines were out, we were already in a second wave with Delta which dramatically reduced the efficacy. Why should teachers, or anyone for that matter, be willing to risk their health? As a society, we treat too many people and jobs as literally expendable.
You also don't address how children can be carriers even if covid doesn't affect them directly. Child vaccines only recently became available, which reduces the infection possibility and therefore the ability to pass it on. By that time , omicron was a thing and has mutated enough that the vaccines aren't as effective to curtail spread.
The flu is significantly less spreadable/fatal than covid. People bringing this comparison up in 2022 are either wilfully ignorant or disingenuous.
Studies on long term risk to children have just started (1) so numbers are unavailable, but covid has already shown to have long term effects in some children as per my link in the other post
All these anti lockdown comments tend to be the same, ignoring network effect and falsely trivializing the risk factor. Comparing to the flu is just ridiculous, and has been debunked over and over and over.
You are too easy to dismiss here. I wasn't comparing severity, but rather out understanding of the flu. Please re-read. Nevertheless, tens of thousands have died every year from the flu. Many more who do not die get post-viral syndromes. The symptoms change every year, sometimes with full body rashes, or severe congestion that lasts weeks. Sometimes it mutates into something deadly, like the last pandemic. The vaccines we've created are hardly effective. To pretend we understand the flu is to be willfully ignorant or disingenuous.
What do we do if their parents end up unable to work due to long term COVID or worse their parents die?
https://data.cdc.gov/widgets/9bhg-hcku?mobile_redirect=true
30-64yo are a significant percentage of total deaths. 30-55 is probably a reasonable age range for parents with dependent children.
>3. Please present evidence of long term effect in a non-negligible percentage of children
You realise we are still going through the pandemic right? There is no long term data either way anywhere because we have to live through it first.
> What do we do if their parents end up unable to work due to long term COVID or worse their parents die?
Indeed. Parents should also be vaccinated. It would be reasonable to delay school until that point. (This is an additional delay over those previously mentioned in parent comments in this thread.)
However, we should also expect that all parents will be exposed to the virus sooner or later, as we have been told from the earliest days of the pandemic, and thus we should limit further delay.
Yes, parents will get COVID from kids who go to school. Yes, unfortunately, there will be children orphaned as a result of that exposure. No, there won't be substantial numbers of net orphans -- certainly not such that crippling public education for years or even decades is the more humane response.
It's not just about death though, it's about hospitalization and long term effects too. We've had multiple major variants.
Also what number of orphans is acceptable? 30% of the US won't vaccinate. Delta has a mortality rate of 3+%(1) by the most charitable takes. Rough math would show that could add somewhere under 1 million orphans to the system.
Do we also ignore medical costs for those who get sick? What about the hospital resources those people take up?
Again, there's just so much more than "just the children"
1. I'm estimating 3% for Delta by taking the NHS estimate of 1.9% CFR for Alpha and the subsequent estimates that Delta had around double the risk of fatality.
Please stop spreading misinformation about a serious subject. The CDC estimated the infection fatality rate at 0.6%. There is no credible evidence of a 3% rate at the population level.
I was estimating based on NHS numbers that showed a CFR of 1.9% for alpha and the estimates showing delta at being double the CFR. Not trying to spread misinformation, but I'm specifically talking about delta in a fully unvaccinated group in the case that everyone gets it (which is the colloquial talking point for people who say "everyone will eventually have covid" used to dismiss the precautions)
EDIT: HN won't let me reply to the comment below me until the cool down period. They say my argument is not in good faith, which is an odd assertion to make. Their comment assumes a higher case count than reported, which while likely, is not an assumption I'm making because it's hard to discern whether there is also therefore uncounted mortality.
Case fatality rates are completely irrelevant. Most infected patients are never tested and thus never officially counted as a "case". Everyone is aware of that now, so if you're still citing CFR numbers then you're obviously acting in bad faith.
> 3. Covid is not a one and done. You get it, and it can have long term lasting effects even if it doesn't kill you. That applies to children as well.
> 3. Please present evidence of long term effect in a non-negligible percentage of children
> There is no long term data either way anywhere because we have to live through it first.
If we don’t have long term data one way or the other, why is the starting assumption that children will experience long Covid to the same extent and same severity as adults (especially given that they have much lower rates of getting a serious case of covid compared to adults)?
Because early results show that there are long term effects in children, we just don't know how bad, and we already know about long covid in adults. Long covid also doesn't require having very severe symptoms either.
And again, children don't exist in a vacuum and can therefore cause long term issues in adults.
This is about being cautious based on what we do know. And we do know it's a crippling societal risk that children are such a huge vector.
> What do we do if their parents end up unable to work due to long term COVID or worse their parents die?
What will my mother's friend's family do after their father, husband and sole provider died within 10 minutes of taking the vaccine, right there on the spot, on the vaccine queue? (Answer: the family almost got evicted by the way. And lived in poverty for 7-8 months before recovering.)
> Someone having the vaccine also doesn't increase the risk of someone else dying. It's pretty simple.
This is a non-sequitur. I ask the reverse: how do I help society by vaccinating? Judging by the contemporary info out there -- I don't in any way or form. I don't reduce the spread and I won't reduce my symptoms because I got through it 3 times without realizing and only the first time was bad (and it was before the news of the pandemic even started so I couldn't have known; and there were no vaccines back then so I had no choice).
Your reply is not helpful.
> Simple statistics show that the risk of dying by taking the vaccine is significantly lower than the risk of dying from covid.
So it's okay if people die of taking the vaccine but it's not okay if they die of Covid? Got it, thanks.
"Smaller percent" is a very inhumane way of looking at it. You're counting lives as if they are rice grains. You should be ashamed of yourself. People still die, regardless of percents.
It's IMO understandable that many elders in my country decide against the vaccine because in many of them it evokes a severe immune response that carries an actual risk of death on the same day. Do you just write them off with "they are a smaller percent than Covid deaths"? How humane of you.
You're clearly uninformed on vaccination issues and spreading FUD in the process. Trying to paint me as insensitive is a cute tactic to hide your ignorance.
Vaccination helps reduce the risk of you catching the virus, spreading the virus, reduces the risk of hospitalization, reduces the risk of you taking medical resources from someone else.
The risk of a "severe immune response that will cause death" is statistically MUCH lower than the risk of catching and dying from covid.
Not accommodating your sealioning is the humane response.
> Trying to paint me as insensitive is a cute tactic to hide your ignorance.
You should tone down the conspiracy theorist act and look for actual human beings with worries and a lot to lose because, you know, that's exactly what's going on.
> how do I help society by vaccinating? Judging by the contemporary info out there -- I don't in any way or form.
> So it's okay if people die of taking the vaccine but it's not okay if they die of Covid? Got it, thanks.
The US is sitting on 860K deaths from 60m cases. A bit over 1%.
Vaccine related deaths are about 6k2 in 187m people. Or 0.0018%.
It's only no help if you consider reducing deaths by orders of magnitude and freeing up resources for the more needy "nothing".
You also need to stop thinking about individuals when talking about public health policies. It sucks but at population levels you're talking about millions of faceless individuals.
Within the vaccine-eligible population of Scotland aged 65–79 years, the death rate per 10 000 person-years was 64·8 for unvaccinated individuals and 4·2 for fully vaccinated individuals. This difference in death rate was most marked in the population older than 80 years (14·0 deaths per 10 000 person-years for fully vaccinated vs 420·1 deaths per 10 000 person-years for unvaccinated individuals older than 80 years) but attenuated in individuals aged 18–64 years (0·8 deaths per 10 000 person-years for fully vaccinated vs 3·1 deaths per 10 000 person-years for unvaccinated individuals aged 18–64 years). For fully vaccinated individuals who subsequently tested positive, there was a median of 8·0 days (IQR 5–13) between a positive test and dying of COVID-19.
I still don't understand how I'm helping society by vaccinating. Almost all scientists out there are saying that the vaccines don't stop the spread. So I won't contribute anything, plus I'm not keen on getting myocarditis while I'm in a shaky health condition due to pre-diabetic condition.
So why should I do it? I will not help anybody (and no I won't hog an ICU bed).
I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated but your numbers are way off. The CDC estimated that as of September 2021 there had been 146M infections in the US, not 60M.
It is possible, allergic reactions like anaphylaxis will set in between 10 and 15 minutes. These can be life-threatening if not treated immediately. The rate of anaphylaxis is 7 per million shots given.
That's why after receiving the vaccine you are supposed to wait 15 minutes so a medical professional can observe you for symptoms.
Not sure what happened in this case, but if it did happen it's likely someone botched the anaphylaxis response.
> There should have been and were lockdowns early in the pandemic. Once vaccines were available teachers should be ready to teach, just like every other worker that interfaces with people.
Isn't this largely what happened in the US? Vaccines started to become available in early 2021, but generally only to health care workers and the most vulnerable. It wasn't until around April that they were available to most adults, with the mRNA being by far the most available. If you jumped in as soon as they opened up general availability it would be early to mid May before you were considered fully vaccinated (Two weeks after second shot).
That's near the end of the 2020-2021 school year.
And remember, that's for people who got vaccinated soon after general availability. In a lot of areas demand was outstripping supply, so it could take a couple weeks or more to actually get an appointment.
By the start of the 2021-2022 school year, everyone that wanted to get vaccinated could easily get it for no cost and very little effort, so in-person school has been very widely offered.
I want to directly address this one - I think the answer is yes. I still get in the engine and answer 911 calls. My wife still goes to the hospital and attends patients. Why shouldn't teachers go to work?
Sure, some teachers are old and/or have health issues, and even with vaccination might be at unreasonable risk. Those people need to do something else (sure, with a lot of social support) and let people who are willing and able to do the job take over. The purpose of the educational system is not to coddle teachers.
The virus is endemic. Whatever happened to "keep calm and carry on"? My grandparents experienced far worse than a virus with a sub-1% fatality rate (and a tiny fraction of that with a couple jabs), and they still sent their kids to school. Let's just accept the danger and move on.
This. Millions of workers, "essential" or not, went to work day in and day out in 2020. The only reason that so many teachers did not is that they have strong unions, who turn out in droves to donate and vote for politicians that do their bidding in return. The teachers unions openly advocated for policies that were terrible for our kids.
I will never forget how the union in my district fought us at every step as we tried to restore normalcy in our children's lives.
I think I just fundamentally disagree that we pay our teachers, workers and other frontline workers like yourself enough (though I'm not sure how much firefighters make) to warrant them risking themselves if they don't have to.
Teachers can teach with remote learning. Maybe it's not as good, but it's doable. You can't stop a fire remotely.
We really need to reevaluate society by making work safer and making sure people are paid better.
The firefighters in my district don't get paid (except for a few support staff). We do it for free.
If teachers think the pay isn't worth the risk, retire and let others take over. We don't need to re-evaluate society, we need people to man up and do their jobs. What are you waiting for? We have very effective vaccines. The virus may wax and wane but it is never going away.
Thankfully my kiddo is too young to be impacted by this, but all my friends with grade schoolers tell me that remote learning is a farce. So I don't think that's the answer.
How much should people be paid to risk themselves? The US Army pays privates about $21K per year.
Remote learning doesn't work for most children, especially the youngest ones and those with bad home environments. The laptop class seems to intentionally ignore that reality.
I agree with this, have since the beginning and it's very unpopular view discussing this on places like HN.
I'll never forget a passing encounter I had in March 2020 as things were starting to shut down in my area. I was at Lowe's (big box hardware store) and hadn't bought or even worn my first mask yet but knew the CDC was recommending social distance when I literally bumped into an elderly woman in a narrow aisle of the store. I apologized and commented how I didn't hear her come up behind me. Then I apologized again and said I'd step away as I hadn't got a mask yet (she hadn't either but I was being polite as she was obviously elderly/high risk). We chatted for a moment about everything that was going on in the community regarding closures/lockdowns. That's when she said, "this is all non-sense, when I grew up Polio was going around and we still went to school, the world has to keep moving on and life is not meant to be risk free".
I have thought about that conversation a lot as time has passed and while unpopular, I believe we over-reacted even given what we knew at the time. It was always going to take a toll but we made it quite a bit more expensive in many ways. Instead of ripping the bandaid off, we'll be pulling it away for quite some time and our kids will be impacted for their entire lives to varying degrees. I have a now 3 year old and in talking with PreK/PK3/PK4 teachers they are already seeing a drastic social/emotional shift of incoming children from the norm. I've heard accounts that slightly older kids have PTSD symptoms from the fear they experienced.
You conveniently miss one crucial piece of data that is already available. That is countries that had schools open for the most part of the pandemic.
I have families in western Canada and except early Spring and summer of 2020, schools remained open and are still open. They didn’t have much different outcome if not better than us in US.
Canada had varied lockdowns too by province. Canada also has way lower vaccine hesitancy and lower population density. On average Canadians have fewer co-morbidities.
I live in Canada so am quite aware. If we're talking about comparisons then let's not cherry pick ones without considering the whole context.
> In early September 2020, the province showed a significant increase in new cases, beginning the second wave of the pandemic.
> From late November to mid-December 2020, the province began placing regions in rolling lockdowns, culminating in a province-wide shutdown beginning Boxing Day
So I'm not sure your use of Ontario is the greatest.
I don't think the reaction was hysterical, the united States ranks 14 out of over 200 countries for most deaths to COVID per capita, and we don't even have high population density.
Considering how drastic the excess deaths of 2020 and 2021 are relative to previous years, I have a decent amount of faith in the number of deaths reported to be caused by covid.
Tons of people are skipping routine screening and exams. Lots of people are straight up avoiding any medical treatment out of fear of catching Covid. (including routine vaccination!). Raw numbers aren’t helpful here.
If HN turns into the thought police when it comes to COVID, that would be a very bad sign for this site.
Don't you understand where all of the animosity from so many people comes from? It comes out of disdain for people like you, who suggest that other opinions and interpretations of statistics are wrongthink and that wrongthink must be punished.
In this case though a user has tried to link something as obvious as "hospitals don't know on admission that you have covid, they just know you're sick" to try to claim that there's some conspiracy.
It's a clear attempt at misinformation and should not be tolerated.
These people went to the hospital and were admitted for X. X being any number of medical conditions requiring hospitalization. You can be admitted for the reason “person is sick”, you need some diagnosis or complaint, however vague
They later tested positive for Covid.
How is that misinformation?
If people come to the hospital with complaints of fever or breathing difficulties, they can do a covid test prior to admission to determine if they are positive.
I’d say it’s misinformation to claim those people were hospitalized because of covid, which is what the original reporting suggested.
They excluded “complications of Covid” so positive test wasn’t needed, could be suspected Covid as well.
Are you really that shocked that people are being hospitalized for reasons other than Covid? I mean, do you think people who have Covid and another problem just don’t go to the hospital?
Of course they weren't. It takes a while for a PCR test result. When someone comes in with "Respiratory problems" on admittance that's not a surprise that they are not diagnosed with COVID immediately is it?
*in reported numbers. That's a massively important caveat, since many countries are not reporting properly (i.e. Russia's death toll is likely 3-5 times the reported one, and India had at least a million deaths, but the reported number is 480K)
Would be better to compare excess deaths per capita (instead of reported COVID deaths)
There are multiple reports that these are reported deaths with Covid, not because of Covid. And there is a big question of bias given how hospitals were financially rewarded by covid cases. Also strong lockdowns and high do not strongly correlate with hospitalizations or deaths.
Looking at excess deaths per capita (over trend) gives you a good-enough estimate of effects of COVID. Countries like New Zealand are actually below trend (negative deaths from COVID, even with similar lockdowns)
Correlation doesn't mean causation. Solitude, substance abuse, stress and economic hardships are all known linked causes that tend to drastically increase death rates. Drug overdoses killed nearly 100k people last year alone, not even counting the indirect or unreported deaths
Also you're comparing apple to oranges. Contrary to most Western countries, New-Zealand focused on sealing their country away, meaning they didn't have to have harsh lock downs for a long time.
I get your point, but do the children also teach the classes, clean the schools, drive the buses, etc? To frame it as a "hysterical reaction to Covid" is either ignorant or intentionally misrepresentation. I also don't know how you can blame society in one sentence, then condemn specific individuals to historical infamy in the next.
I'd say those who made it happen like it is right now are what we call the "victors" in the sentence of "history is written by the victors". So it could be the case that those who had a more moderate and less extremist take will be scolded in the history books.
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. This sort of fulmination, especially on inflammatory topics, is against the rules and the spirit of this site. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Is this a reference to the quote "cherchez la femme" being attributed to Talleyrand? I found that claim here[0], but it doesn't seem to be correct; this source[1] attributes it to Dumas. Talleyrand may have said « La politique, c’est les femmes » [2] but I couldn't find a clear source for that either.
Of course nothing that happened before the pandemic could have contributed at all to any feelings of hopelessness. The absolute despair required to want to "end it all" just suddenly happened because of this one situation. The constant 24/7 barrage of "doom and gloom" and just general insanity in the news and "social" media couldn't have laid any groundwork for anyone to feel like there's just no point in even trying to live anymore…
In regards to the media, parents could be more dismissive of the doom and gloom. Instead I watch parents repeat in front of their children that corporations are evil, sea level will rise by 10's of feet soon, racism everywhere, reverse racism everywhere, the China Communists will take over the world, that the U.S. doesn't manufacture anything, etc.
I recall one adult in my entire childhood that laughed off a doom and gloom discussion and one other that said "relax you'll be fine". It immediately paused my chronic anxiety as calm is contagious.
The idea that if people would stop talking how the world is so bad the world wouldn't be so bad is one of the strangest patterns of thinking I've seen pop up here more recently.
The world is in a state of decline, climate change being just one of many stressors on society. Pretending this is not the case doesn't make it go away, and if anything the media is aggressively downplaying the current situation we are in.
Anxiety and despair don't have to be the only reactions to decline, but we certainly won't get past those as long as people keep pretending everything is fine.
The world is not in decline. We do not live on a "spaceship earth" because of the potential for astroid/moon mining and space based solar panels. Technological progress continues to outstrip our environmental damage done in it's persuit, and ultimately only technological solutions will get us out of the current issues with climate change. That, and a healthy amount of climate adaptation.
Apocalyptic rhtoric is both wrong and a mind virus that cripples meaningful policy discussions.
I have my problems with Steven Pinker but this is one issue where he is so correct on it's not even funny.
> Technological progress continues to outstrip our environmental damage done in it's persuit, and ultimately only technological solutions will get us out of the current issues with climate change
I think that, increasingly, people disagree with this, but it is still a minority opinion.
> Technological progress continues to outstrip our environmental damage done in it's persuit, and ultimately only technological solutions will get us out of the current issues with climate change.
You've got your causal arrows backwards. Technological progress is fueled by environmental destruction and our use of fossil fuels. I recommend Smil's Energy and Civilization as a relatively neural view on the relationship between our energy usage and civilizational progress.
I understand where the mass denial comes from, recognizing the current state of collapse we are in uproot many of the essential structure of meaning we use to survive so our minds won't trivially let us see them.
Still it is ultimately healthier for everyone to come to grips with this rather than struggle through more and more aggressive and cognitively dissonant forms of denial.
I have on occasion reminded my daughter that the world she’ll grow up in will not be as abundantly beautiful as it is today. Just as it isn’t for me compared to when I was younger.
I’ve also, at those times, reminded her that she has the power and responsibility to be a good steward of the world because nothing is writ in stone.
Just reminding you that cautionary tales aren’t always simply doom and gloom. As an adult who grew up with parents who were dismissive of the worlds problems, I felt sheltered and out of touch when I finally learned about some of the problems we would be facing as humans on this planet.
I have no desire to set up my kids like that. People like my parents took our world and shit on it for all of the generations that follow. They felt it was more important to be positive than face consequences. If we have another boomer generation, we _are_ goners.
> I have on occasion reminded my daughter that the world she’ll grow up in will not be as abundantly beautiful as it is today.
You have to know you're almost certainly wrong though? The world has been marching forward and forward every year to assume this next "catastrophe" is the one we can't solve is honestly ridiculous.
With all respect, the claim you are framing these stories as "cautionary tales" is questionable given certain tone of your writing.
Also the PP had examples where the counter example is simply demonstrated. That's what parents should do instead of repeating them with implied certainty. Of most concern, I can't recall a single doom story from my childhood that came true or that I could work on by the time I was an adult(e.g., we'll be out of oil in 25 years, the Russians will drop a bomb on us any day now, the Japanese will own the US soon, world population growth will lead to world wide famine, collapse of the USD, Social Security will end in 10 years, etc.). My childhood years (and possibly most of my life) were lost to depression, negative rumination, anxiety, and hopelessness. It was only until I limited interaction with doom-sayers that I finally have a clear, calm, and focused mind and that is a prerequisite for solving meaningful problems.
This sounds horrendous. The worst thing that you could say about your parent’s approach was that you felt “out of touch”. What do you think your child will say about you?
There is a book called “Simplicity Parenting” which I highly recommend. Basically, you’re right. Parents can cause PTSD in their children by fretting about current events. I’m my opinion, it is our job to insulate them until they are of an age where it’s appropriate to begin such exposure.
Using methods unlikely to work and with the added safety of having people in the house all the time I could imagine that many of the new attempts were not intended to succeed
This is a fair question. Especially because the increase was almost entirely among girls. They have a much higher attempt rate but a much lower completion rate than boys. [1]
It is possible that these attempts are more about distress than true attempts to end life. Still a problem, but not as much if the suicide rates did not also go up.
It would be truly fascinating to compare this increase in suicide to any changes in suicide for children in China or other countries which weathered the pandemic much better than the US. If it really is the case that harsh lockdowns create more suicides then surely China and its much more swift and drastic entire lockdowns of million person cities would generate more of them per capita, no?
I suspect though that we'd see there's not much increase or change at all for suicides in countries that handled the pandemic better than the US. People want to blame lockdowns, remote schooling or specific actions in the US when in reality the incredibly horrific response and deaths of nearly a million Americans is horrifying enough on its own.
Looking at China for numerical statistics of any sort is a fool’s errand. Nothing they report is accurate, especially with regards to COVID or the mental health of their populace.
Frankly this reads like a take by someone who is never around kids.
Kids need social interaction. I know multiple kids who have basically been checked out of society and told they’ll kill their family if they socialize.
Lockdowns and covid hysteria have certainly contributed to this.
I wouldn't trust such numbers from China. Their death rate has looked like this [1] [2] since April 2020. Coincidentally, that is when covid cases began to take off in the west. China stopped adding to their death toll after they revised their numbers upwards exactly 50% (1290/2579) [3].
Per capita COVID deaths in the US were similar to those in the EU.
This partisan left-wing reaction to this news, which is implicitly about absolving the massive violation of the entire population's civil and economic liberties of blame for the socioeconomic and non-COVID health deteriorations seen during the COVID era, is the real problem.
It's a wombo combo. Pandemic traps you at home with nothing to do, so you spend more time on social media, where the products are known to drive kids to depression.
I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything.
Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain so it stops being worried about things that legitimately and truly torment it. It reduces your sensitivity, it knocks off your normal brain chemicals balance, and it turns you into a robot. I've had a family member go through this a long time ago. It was soul-crushing watching them when I visited. They were almost turned to vegetables with chemical means.
Doing all this does NOT solve the underlying problems that make people reach for suicide. Those problems are societal and very deeply ingrained at this point.
We must look for the reasons that younger people start attempting suicides more than before and try and cure the illness, not the symptoms.
I even started finding it offensive when I see people offering medication. It comes across as: "Here ya go champ, let's again deceive your brain that everything's alright when it really isn't, now off ya go and be a good worker bee, and oh by the way that'll be $2000 for the 10 minutes session". Could it be that we just treat people worse and worse with time? I say yes, yes we do.
But judging by a lot of other replies in this thread, I'd venture to say that many people are not ready to hear it, sadly, and are still in denial, and will shout anybody thinking otherwise away from their platforms (whichever they might be, virtual or in the meat space). And until that changes, the problem will only deepen.
Ironically it is this sort of arm chair anti science bullshit that increase suicide risk among the mentally ill y contributing to a stigma of being medicated for a mental health condition.
Not at all ironically, you didn't present anything scientific either. And I don't stigmatize people for seeking help. I am skeptical if medications help because I haven't seen them work for the several people I know who tried them.
On the contrary, blindly believing (not knowing) is unscientific in any and all regards.
I too saw people taking pills and becoming "robots" in the methaphoric sense. They were dull and not themselves, "just" without suicidal tendencies. It was absolutely devastating to live under a roof with them.
When I got a major depression, a decade back, I decided that I will not take any meds, because I'd rather die the person I was, than live on as an empty shell.
To offer some explanation in defense of this, though I can't cite it right now:
There's two major tests for the efficacy of depression-treating drugs that I am aware of. One is a "willpower" test, which in one incarnation is attempting to drown a mouse. A compound more likely to be efficacious in humans if it makes a mouse attempt to swim longer before ultimately succumbing to exhaustion. Taken by itself this test seems promising, though one could argue it might blunt whatever mechanism makes you give up and try a different approach.
The second is a bit worse, and done in humans. A compound more likely to be efficacious in humans at treating depression also seems to be effective at disrupting short and long term memory. So, they give the sample and a short term memory test and see how you do. If you do worse it is likely to treat depression.
You will see, if you go back through past threads, people stating that their ADHD diagnosis was comorbid with or developed after a diagnosis of depression. It is extremely likely that they developed focus problems due to being treated with SSRIs.
Glad that there are studies and inquiries. We desperately need them yesterday because the culture of "take the magic pill and let's pretend you're OK" is not helping anyone.
What? For humans they use validated depression surveys conducted by medical professionals.
You can look it up in any of the drug labels.
A 4-week study of inpatients meeting DSM-III-R criteria for MDD with melancholia utilizing Effexor in a range of 150 to 375 mg per day (divided in a three-times-a-day schedule) demonstrated superiority of Effexor over placebo based on the HAM-D-21 total score. The mean dose in completers was 350 mg per day (study 3).
They do these tests after, but they are expensive. The pre-screening before they reach this point is as above plus others I am sure I don't know about.
The point of medication is not to always numb your brain but temporary ease the pain until you can stand on your own feet again. When life goes so wrong for some people and their brain pain signal is so high that you can't even get out of bed, those medications help. It helps them to sleep and think less until they start to think correctly.
The issue today, is that people are expected to be productive all the time despite the isolation, low wages, lack of ownership, purpose, meaning and the raising inequality. And it is often those who are perceptive enough that tend to suffer more. If you don't want medications, then people need to have enough safety net to be unproductive for at least 3 to 6 months with some basic care, and this is luxury few people have.
I am not arguing with the desired outcome. But what I've seen more often than not is that people get addicted to the pills and never do stand on their own feet again.
And I agree with your second paragraph completely. I am sick of society pretending that people are "sick". They are not. They are responding naturally to an increasingly hostile world.
I'm sick of people pretending that they know more about brain chemistry and human behavior than the thousands of professionals and the decades of research devoted to the topic, but here we are with your dismissive posts. Some people eventually get off the medications. Some can't function without them. Your attitude is akin to being upset because once a paraplegic is in a wheelchair that they never just get up and try to walk again.
It will help if you read more slowly and if you don't get outraged during the process. Then you'll see that not one thing you said was something that I claimed. I never said not even one of the things you claim that I did.
A bit of a puzzling comment you posted, man.
Another hint: those thousands of professionals have a perverse monetary incentive. Food for thought. Some do good; I've met a few. Many others simply look annoyed and just hand you a prescription. We should do something about the latter.
In your original comment, you were "expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything." This is an absolute statement that is directly contradicted by "Some [patients] can't function without [their medication]." Its ironic you criticize the reading skills of your interlocutor
You broke the site guidelines egregiously both by starting this flamewar and then perpetuating it with dozens of posts like this. That's seriously uncool. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29868497 and stop doing this from now on.
Note that the right amount of knowledge to have about "brain chemistry" is none; we don't know how antidepressants work. The difference is uninformed commenters seem to think it's all serotonin levels.
>I'm sick of people pretending that they know more about brain chemistry and human behavior than the thousands of professionals and the decades of research devoted to the topic
The "thousands of professionals and the decades of research devoted to the topic" were mislead by pharma companies propagating the erroneous idea that depression and other problems are just chemical imbalances in the brain that are to be fixed with medication and that's that. So you can hardly blame them.
Please stop breaking the site guidelines, no matter how wrong someone or you feel they are. Perhaps you don't feel you owe them better, but you definitely owe this community better if you're participating in it—regardless of how right you are or feel you are.
I'd agree with you here, there is a tendency to overprescribe, and I think depression is showing a natural response to unhealthy and difficult condition (perceived or actual). Are they "sick"? well technically yes, just like one could have a flu and can't work. I think a better analogy would be injury, it is as if the mind is injured, kind like a broken leg that you can't walk on.
Psychiatrist and family member tend to fear relapses, and typically the effort required to enhance the situation is tremendous, and some situations are simply not fixable, they need to be accepted, time need to pass for healing, and attention need to be shifted elsewhere. The person would certainly lose some confidence in their own ability to withstand future pressures and tend to fear relapses as well, and yes there are financial incentives to sell pills and pitch as an easy fix. Thus, there is a risk of being dependant on the pills.
However, a good treatment plan is a mix of medicine and some form of talk/behavioural therapy. The medicine is designed to be temporary but might be necessary fix (unless there is a real hardware issue which I think is a rarity), and is usually combined with CTB and other form of talk/behavioural therapy aiming to strengthen healthy coping skills, eliminate damaging thoughts, change perception and take some actions. Do some people need medicine for lifetime? I don't know personally, but I've a feeling it is being overprescribed and it might cause more harm than good if taking for a long time. I mean, who knows what it does to the brain reward system if used long-term? I don't think it is well understood.
Ideally, people are given the time/care to heal on their own, around 3 to 6 months at least for severe depression and usually the person emerges at the other end have different perspective/interests in life. But the problem is the economical system is setup for constant productivity and 6 months of downtime for many of us is simply not an option.
I find it offensive when I see people assume that the only reason anybody takes psychoactive medication is to deceive themselves. I know people whose lives are much better on medication (and who see the world much more accurately than without it), I know people whose lives are worse. Are you so confident that you can decide for everybody else which group they fall into? The world and the people in it don’t exist to make clean narratives for others, whether you’re a drug company rep or anti-psychiatry.
> I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything.
“at all help with anything” sounds pretty absolute to my ears, as does the wording in basically every other sentence in what you said, but I’m glad to be mistaken. Though I note the person you responded to barely mentioned medication, and you seemed to find it necessary to denounce it in the strongest terms in a reply…
> * Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain...*
Notice the word "often". I'm not a 10-year old that claims that the 4-5 cases that I've witnessed represent the entire world and I'm getting tired of everybody here pretending that I'm some kind of monster.
Or maybe you're projecting too much?
Get off my back already. Read more slowly, don't get outraged, don't assume malice. Does wonders both to mental health and to the quality of online discussions.
I’m not sure where you read outrage in my comment, but talking about the quality of online discussions right after accusing me of projecting did make me very emotional. I laughed right out loud.
In communicating you must consider how your words will be interpreted. If you think you're being widely misinterpreted, then you should consider that perhaps your communication was unclear and is the source of misinterpretation, rather than blaming others for not figuring out what you really meant.
I choose to do both at the same time. Apparently I came off too extremist to some which is an interesting potential lesson for me. At the same time, I'm seeing people project and do uncharitable interpretations. Curious.
I really used to think this way as well, and was dead set against psychiatric medication.
Unfortunately I have had multiple family members recently deal with crippling and harmful bouts of depression and extreme anxiety.
They tried many things, but ultimately it was medication (not to remove the feelings, but just to help manage them) and long term counselling that helped things get better.
The medication alone is not going to help. But when someone can’t even get out of bed, or ,eave the house, or is so sad that everything becomes a dark fog, I disagree that medication is not required.
I’m now extremely grateful that I am in a position where I am able to afford it.
I have blood pressure issues. I try to eat right, and exercise. I have my whole life. I practice meditation and slowing down and generally feel fairly stress free as well.
I do this to address the “root” cause as you would put it. Unfortunately in this area I also need a little help from modern science, so I’m glad I have access to it.
I think of it exactly like you said. Apparently my root comment was worded in a way that people thought I'm sitting on an extreme. I really am not though.
Your initial argument sits pretty squarely in a camp or class of person that dismisses medication for mental illness. If you meant mental health medications have been overprescribed I think I even take issue with that. Anyone who’s been in that world and has been on any kind of mental health medication knows it’s not usually the first pitch thrown by mental health professionals.
I think the root problem in such situations is that people tend to not realize they are interfacing with their interpretation of what you said as opposed to what you have literally said (which I believe I have interpreted as you intended, and I agree with you).
Nobody seems to be addressing withdrawal symptoms of anti-depressants. I have way too many years experience dealing with this with friends and family and too many types of anti-depressants. It's never fun. Even doctors who prescribe the SSRIs won't admit to it - I stopped counting how many times a doctor said, "I've never heard of withdrawal symptoms for <insert anti-depressant> before!" meanwhile they write out another prescription for the next SSRI/SSNRI because the last one stopped working after x months/years.
I know of several cases where symptoms lasted for years. I know too many people who have had many different symptoms simultaneously while coming off of e.g. Effexor (with or without tapering dosage), ranging from flu-like symptoms for up to a whole year (meanwhile people moan about having 1-2 days of flu-like symptoms after getting vaccinated), horrible nightmares, cramps, headache, nausea, dizziness, worse depression than before, lethargy, insomnia, and the list goes on.
With "any other type of medication" you generally don't have to deal with withdrawal symptoms, so it's a bit unfair to compare them like that, although I agree to some extent that for some people, they are better than not being able to get out of bed, especially for people who can't afford to get alternative types of help, but people on anti-depressants are never like themselves before they started taking them.
And to add, they are IMHO not addressing the root cause of anything. People become 100% dependent on anti-depressants and after 1-2 days of stopping begin to experience withdrawal symptoms of varying intensity. Granted every person is different and will take different anti-depressants with varying dosages which will have varying impact on their psychological health. Sorry if this appears like a rant, I'm also glad for the existence of such medications but I think they are just handed out like candy without any consideration.
> Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain so it stops being worried about things that legitimately and truly torment it. It reduces your sensitivity, it knocks off your normal brain chemicals balance, and it turns you into a robot. I've had a family member go through this a long time ago. It was soul-crushing watching them when I visited. They were almost turned to vegetables with chemical means.
See, the problem with acting like you were trying to be reasonable and you "didn't mean it like that" is that I can go back to your post quote what you said.
I didn't "misunderstand" and I did not "only see what I want."
I am not going to accept your attempt to backpedal.
You said what I pasted above. I thought it was an ignorant thing to say. I responded.
> I'm not your enemy here
You absolutely are. I care about what is TRUE. You lie and say ignorant things that conveniently align with your values and try to pass them off as wisdom.
Please do not perpetuate flamewars on HN, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. You did a ton of that in this thread. That is seriously not cool. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.
It's really very shocking news to me that I perpetuate anything on HN except the occasional comment (with big gaps of inactivity, too).
I got under attack, my comments have been misrepresented, and I'm defending myself. Admittedly not in a timid manner. But that tends to happen when you put people on the defensive by constantly almost copy-pasting the same criticisms.
What would you do?
You linked 6 instances of fairly minor transgressions (at least in my mind; tons of people mention downvotes and are NEVER warned; a lot troll openly, get heavily flagged, and weeks later I still don't see them warned).
This thread here is the first and biggest example and it's the first (and last) where I'd agree with you that I crossed the line.
Your comment is fairly saddening to me and feels like targeting, and/or as an effort to enforce an echo chamber. I am very sure that is not your intention so I invite you to write to me on my email so we can settle this properly with more and better nuanced discussion.
I stand by my conviction that I got misrepresented and got attacked by a lot of people who freely interpreted a comment not made in bad faith, while clearly demonstrating lack of benefit of the doubt themselves. Have they been warned like I am here?
And I'm the bad guy for having none of their attacks?
Ouch. There's something not cool.
Again, feel free to email me and maybe you'll see I'm not some sort of a villain spreading hate on HN. Unpopular opinions shouldn't go under a relentless fire.
If not, keeping quiet on HN is the easiest thing for me to do. I'll prefer it because I don't want to lose my account. But, for the last time, you're making a mistake and are likely misunderstanding me due to cultural differences. Please, do consider that.
Everyone always feels like the others started it, and did worse, while they were only defending themselves. Basically we all underestimate our own destructive contributions by (let's call it) 10x and overestimate others' by another 10x, so "objects in the mirror are closer than they appear" by a good 100x.
This is how threads end up in a downward spiral [1], with each person perpetuating the flamewar while feeling like they're in the right and it's the other ones behaving badly. But flamewar comments like these ones you posted are just not ok on HN:
As for other users breaking the site guidelines, if you look elsewhere in the thread you'll see that I scolded a bunch of them just as much—for example:
It always feels like the mods are against you [2] and that you're being singled out while others are let off lightly or ignored. That's not so. It just feels that way, similar to how it always feel like you're the one the cops pull over for speeding tickets or the refs are always making calls against the home team.
What is true is that there are lots of comments breaking the site guidelines that don't get moderated, but that's not because we're treating them specially—it's because we don't see them all. We can't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here [3]. There's far too much.
Btw, it's better from my perspective to have these discussions in public because then there's a chance that others can see and learn from them. A 1-to-1 email conversation has far less leverage and the number of demands for moderator attention vastly exceeds the limited supply, which is why my worst-case latency in replying to emails is unfortunately so terrible.
Thanks for elaborating. And thank you for showing me that I'm not singled out. That was very important for me and it does make the ending of the whole thing better.
While I can't say with clear conscience that I agree 100%, I do agree with your general observations and would put my agreement percentage at, say, 80%.
This situation also gave me a good opportunity to reflect and understand that there's no point in stressing myself in HN so I will definitely stay away from such loaded topics for a long time.
I should have been here only for the technology news anyway so I'll stick to those. I will both protect my mental health and not dilute HN in one stroke.
Thank you for following up, it's much appreciated.
We ban accounts that do this. I'm not going to ban you right now, because I didn't see it elsewhere in your recent comments (other than https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29755850, which was also unduly personal). But please review the site guidelines and make sure never to post like this to HN, so we don't have to ban you in the future.
Regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are, it's not ok to poison the ecosystem this way. Perhaps you don't feel you owe better to people who you feel are wrong, but you definitely owe this community better if you're participating in it.
Multiple people have pointed out errors in your thinking, but I'm gonna add something slightly different:
Consider that we know that mentioning suicide in the news increases the number of suicides. There is therefore a minor Info Hazard to mention suicides without the correct help structure in place.
You are by that original comment implying that medication is ineffective or a crutch. There are multiple other comments saying that comments similar to yours have let them believe that they should do without medication. So you are therefore doing almost the same thing yourself.
Crutches aid in healing, just as medication does for depression. And we should try to keep Info Hazards visible only in professional circles.
Okay. And I was saying that people get addicted to crutches as well.
It's a risk. I'm not stigmatizing people for needing help and never will.
I can accept that my original comment came off a little bit more extremist than I intended but it's IMO also true that you all are projecting a little bit too much, and made me look like a monster who tell legitimately struggling people to suck it off.
> Medication CAN lead to a much better quality of life for many people.
Yes, it can. But if the underlying issue is that society and social structures are fucked up, and that's what's making people depressed, then a proper cure has to involve fixing society.
> then a proper cure has to involve fixing society
Where did I say that society is perfect, and that the only thing making people depressed is chemical imbalance?
I agree that our current society can be stressful, and that environmental factors[0] also affect people's behavior.
I agree that we can improve society through collective action, and hopefully that would lead to better quality of life for people, thus reducing the rate of youth suicide attempts.
However, I was addressing to OP's suggestion that medication will not "help at all with anything." Also that "Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain ... and it turns you into a robot."
So what are you defending here, exactly? Do you agree with OP? Is that why you are trying to attribute something to me I didn't say to make my argument seem absurd, instead of addressing my actual arguments?
0: Such as climate change, peak oil, the destruction of our natural ecosystem, the massive die-off of earth's biodiversity, and posturing from progressively more desperate super-powers
Maybe not necessarily "evil", but the comment is dangerous and damaging. People who need medication the most are struggling with overcoming the kinds of doubts about this person is just trying to raise up higher. So many people don't make it because they think medication is for the weak, when it's what would've given them the stability to get back to normal.
More pontification and intellectualization of matters that people have no first-hand experience of, as is HN's wont.
As someone with over 20 years of mental health issues who refused medication for exactly the same reasons - "sucking it up," trying to address root causes, meditation, spirituality, exercise...
... none of it worked. You could easily spend a lifetime trying to "root cause" the source of your malady and return empty handed, as I have. When the bills need to get paid, and your options are psychological collapse or some chemical attenuation of your mental state, I think the choice is clear.
I agree that it's sort of twisted that modern society is structured such that we need to constantly medicate ourselves to cope with day to day existence.
> I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything. (emphasis mine)
Right there in the first line. "Any medication", "at all", and "with anything." Come on :)
Maybe you should consider studying rhetoric when making positional statements in the future. It’s clear that your language is failing to fully encompass your position. I myself am very confused how I can take away skepticism that any medical will help at all as somehow having any nuance that medication might work.
You can't claim to be pro-science and then false-ly claim that psychiatric medication does nothing.
Depression and ADHD are _extremely_ treatable through medication, just as examples. There are many studies around this topic, it is way more treatable than certain physical conditions.
"Knocks off your normal brain chemicals" have you considered that some people's normal brain chemicals are not set up normally? Would you claim someone who is anemic taking iron supplements should stop cuz they're messing with that?
Naturalistic arguments like this lead to many people having way too much skepticism for things that are easily treatable. It leads to people dying. You should be ashamed of spreading this kind of nonsense.
EDIT: ADHD medication, when the right medication is given, has like 70% success rate at treating symptoms, and there's like 30% of people who express not just having symptoms reach manageable level, but total removal of all symptoms for their cases!
Imagine if we had magical robot prosthetics indistinguishable from actual human limbs. That is what we have for certain mental illnesses, for some set of people.
You are claiming that medication cannot help with issues (expressing skepticism).
I'm sympathetic to what you are saying that external factors are definitely at play (of course they are, in a sense. Mental illness characterised by social interaction will depend on factors of those social interactions). But you're dismissing internal factors!
For many mental illnesses, people are able to function on a day-to-day basis without treatment, but would feel better with proper treatment. And sometimes the cup overflows, and people suffer because of it. And people in the chorus of skepticism play into people not getting treatment.
Dude, I'm not dismissing anything. I just didn't want to write a book. :)
But I can see that many misunderstood my intent, so likely my fault. All I was saying is that medication is over-represented.
That was all really.
I myself have been on CBD and it helped me. I know pills can be good temporary crutches. But IMO they are given away too quickly (anecdotal evidence) without much regard to what the person is actually going through.
I'm obviously aware that what I observed is not 100% of the cases. Really not sure what made so many jump on me claiming that I over-generalized. I didn't.
I'm on your side and on the side of many who are going through a rough patch, very much because half of my life was a rough patch. I'm all too aware. I was only saying that medication is a trigger-happy tactic (again in my statistically insignificant observations).
Generally agree with your comment but .... You're an adult. Decide what you need and take agency. The doc isn't forcing you to gobble pills and not do CBT.
The fact that they're available, and with low friction if it appears that you need them is great.
Here's a stupid analogy. To become a bodybuilder you need to lift heavy compound movements probably under a barbell over a long period of time. You have a scrawny kid come into your gym and he says he likes doing push-ups. Why not let him do pushups? Just because they're "too easy to access" and not the stack ranked force prioritized #1 option for hypertrophy?
In general were super prescriptive on what others should do, but most Americans don't exercise, etc.
More availability of a broader array of treatment modalities is a feature not a big IMHO.
What a farce to reduce any criticism of psychiatry to being anti-science. OP didn't even mention ADHD.
Depression is pretty wide and not fully understood. You can't just take the meaning of life and reduce it to a scientific problem. Yet that's what most of these kids are struggling with.
It's hopeful that the field of psychiatry is also experimenting with psycobylin as that at least will allow for people to come to some meaning on their own, in a journey rather than being numbed out.
Also what does anti-scientific even mean in this context? You can run a well set up experiment that turns people into vegetables and drastically sees a drop in suicide. Is it therefore correct? Don't forget this field is only 40 years away from lobotomies.
If there's a 25% chance you're going to kill yourself in 90 days, medication helps.
If you have a milder case and/or a very long time horizon, completely agree doing "root cause" work throughout your preferred method makes sense.
But it's not fair to the people suffering to say "I know you're bed bound but how about some cardio? Nah you don't need medicine that just numbs it". Why can't they get a little help when they're in a desperate place? Starting medicine doesn't imply a death sentence where it's force fed down your throat every day for the rest of your life. Take it for 6 months and stop when everything is going better and you have some reps of [your preferred recovery technique] under your belt.
> You can't claim to be pro-science and then false-ly claim that psychiatric medication does nothing.
I didn't see anyone claiming to be "pro-science", and I also didn't see anyone claiming that medication "does nothing".
It looks like to me that you completely misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented the comment (I can't tell which one), and then got angry with the misrepresentation.
Another recent, worrying, trend (not unique to your comment) is that people don't see nuance and don't accept thoughts that don't match theirs. According to these people, you're either "pro-science" (and agree with them), or you are dangerous "anti-science" person spouting misinformation (how dare you see the world differently than me! Grrr).
Please do not cross into personal attack in your comments here, and please do not post in the flamewar style, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It's destructive of the kind of site we're hoping for here.
> Luckily, all my friends are fellow techies who are upper-middle class, and can afford medication and therapy (and in one case, out-of-state long-term hospitalization.) But even with insurance, they're looking at many thousands of dollars of treatment.
Please understand that I am not anti-psychiatry at all. Your kid and their friends are best doing intensive therapy, and if necessary, sessions twice per week, outpatient. That is their best bet, health-wise. Because of taking Pristiq (desvenlafaxine) [SNRI] and Rexulti (brexpiprazole) for severe depression, I literally have suffered the worst thing imaginable, a drug side effect known as *akathisia*. In no exaggeration, it is worse than death. You have to move constantly, but it does not relieve the terror that you go through. You cannot physically relax at all. Your mind can only think haunting and terrorizing thoughts. It feels like you have been doused in gasoline, lit on fire, and you have been locked in a coffin. You literally survive moment-by-moment not to kill yourself. By the way, it is gruesomely painful from a perceptual standpoint. One time, when I was extremely sick, I went to the hospital and I had no idea whatsoever when I went to the emergency room that I was in sepsis along with diabetic ketoacidosis, due to being in the throes of akathisia. If you have it severely, it can cause violence and suicide. I had it severely and it lasted for about a year. I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological disease plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin-dependent). I have been through really terrible things in my life due to my health but akathisia by far takes the cake. It is in no exaggeration worse than death.
This is excerpts from Jordan Peterson (whom I do not agree with from a political standpoint) who is a psychologist who suffered from it due to benzodiazepines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIfllfH0k3I
> It's past time the West reckons with our mental health crisis. Why is it that we're the wealthiest nations in the world, yet our kids are more stressed and depressed than kids in third-world countries? I think society will only become more and more unstable until we spend time seriously addressing that question and adjust our culture accordingly.
Like what? Do what Russia (along with the entire USSR) along with former Yugoslavia did to political dissidents?
Did you know that they used to put political dissidents in 4-point restraints and inject them repeatedly with Haldol, in order to induce severe akathisia as a torture method? If you did not appear "crazy" before coming in to some place like the Serbsky Institute in Moscow, you would appear absolutely "crazy" afterwards whenever you came out of there.
I am so sorry this happened to you. The LAPD almost killed me and I got put in a similar situation being drugged against my will in a mental ward. I had an allergic reaction and had to splash a water cooler over my head and go into a cold shower while clothed because the staff had no processes in place for adverse reactions. Every moment felt like death and I had to keep moving. I'd say the only silver lining we can take from these experiences is knowing that the American ideal of freedom is a lie, and that we should help liberate animals from testing. What we felt is only a sliver of what lab animals feel.
Literally your entire brain functions on trading of chemicals. There is no such thing as “a thought” without the chemicals in your brain producing it. What you describe as “numbness” seems to be your discomfort with a person’s personality changing in front of you… _for their benefit_.
As someone who’s long differed from anxiety and depression, I had your mindset at one point. It wasn’t until I started trying medication that I could start evaluating my life in a more objective manner, without the chemicals in my brain discoloring every thought. Now I don’t even need medication, but I am certainly a different person. Medication helped me choose a better life for myself.
That’s just a bunch of kitchen psychology not even on the level of 19th century Freudian psychoanalysis.
You’re starting from a very specific worldview—the puritanical tradition where those upholding a certain set of virtues (industriousness, tolerance to pain, etc) will be richly rewarded (on earth or later) and, conversely, any suffering can be traced back to individual faults.
That mindset cannot survive contact with even trace amounts of actual data where, time and time again, medication does make a difference, although that difference remains frustratingly smaller than for other diseases. But it isn’t ‘numbing” of “fake” any more than antibiotics are.
You seem to believe antidepressants are like uppers or downers where you chuck a handful and ten minutes later you feel a wave of happiness roll over you. Here’s a secret: take a few of those pills and you will feel… absolutely nothing. Anti-depressants do not produce a “high” in any sense of the word. Changes in mood take months to appear and are usually not even recognized by the patient. It’s their friends who tend to notice it first.
I did a zoom call with a psychiatrist and got Prozac and propranolol within an hour. Amazed at how easy the process is now with telemedicine and how helpful the right medications are.
I wish I hadn’t tried to “tough it out” for so long and being scared away from medication after hearing things like they would numb you or make you feel like a robot. I don’t feel that way at all now that I’ve experienced a number of these medications firsthand.
> Doing all this does NOT solve the underlying problems that make people reach for suicide.
But it gives you time to teach teens coping skills, ingrain healthy habits, and get them through some of the tough teenage years, so you can then back down on meds when they are in a better place, with a better toolkit, to create adults who want to live.
I agree the meds are not the best answer in all cases. And there is nothing wrong with discussing their negative aspects. But that doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose in some cases.
Especially cases where it truly is a chemical imbalance causing the depression. Which may be more cases than you realize.
> But it gives you time to teach teens coping skills, ingrain healthy habits, and get them through some of the tough teenage years, so you can then back down on meds when they are in a better place, with a better toolkit, to create adults who want to live.
From my perspective, the point of contention is whether we are doing this to a satisfactory level, or even "seriously" trying to. Like, what can we point to as humanity seriously trying, with the same seriousness we devote to other endeavours?
Are you a psychiatrist, psychologist, or mental health expert? The "shouting away" may be caused by non-experts such as yourself thinking your notions are worth more than MDs, who have trained an additional 7+ years than you to become experts in treatment of suicidality.
I lost my best friend and a mentee to suicide in 2021, both in their early 20s.
My most important observation is that both of them killed themselves for a myriad of overlapping reasons: childhood trauma from physical abuse, lack of access to therapy, body shame/eating disorders, and stress from experiencing discrimination/hate in their schools and religious communities, as well as more issues which I’m sure were hidden from those around them. They both had problems before the pandemic, COVID just added another to the list.
In a way, theres a reason to be optimistic - any problem you solve that’s causing people real suffering will reduce suicides. There are so many opportunities to tackle this problem.
Every time I share with someone that I'm depressed and think of suicide they're like "just get therapy bro", but I'm depressed not just from the isolation that came with the pandemic (I'm high risk due to an underlying health issue) but also because I'm unemployed, and instead of feeling fun discovering things I can do with code, all I feel is heat because I'm unemployed.
Someday, when we mature enough as a society, maybe we'll touch on the subject on high rates of male suicide during the absolutely normal periods of time, and how it's all driven by the pressure to sustain yourself and succeed in playing the game of capitalism.
So sorry to hear friend. I've been there, I wager if you find the right job, you'll feel a lot better. I know it's tough when everyone around you looks at you with heat, that was my prime motivation to get a job tbh! Since then, I've discovered the job provides a lot of meaning and purpose, it's a great thing. Good luck, I hope you can find a position.
Maybe not exactly relevant but I’m early 30s and Ive had breakout schizoaffective disorder for a year. It’s bipolar disorder and schizophrenia at the same time. And I have almost come to the point where I can’t live with it anymore in the past few weeks because the symptoms evolve over time. I just wanted to leave this here in case I do die soon. The hardest symptoms to deal with are the depression and anxiety. But the depression I have experienced is absolutely black. I thought I knew what depression was before but I didn’t know and I think very few people do know. It is difficult just to look at an object because there’s nothing in the object. Usually there are emotions and implications and ideas but you don’t know there can be nothing until you experience nothing. And that is such a huge lesson is that you are experiencing intense emotions all the time but you just don’t realize it until they are gone. When you sit back on the couch and have a feeling like you want to continue to exist, this is actually an intense form of contentment because it’s absence is an intense form of depression/anxiety. I am now to see these things clearly now because due to the nature of my disease the depression/anxiety come and go full force many times per day. And this is the ultimate lesson that I want to spread: nothing is depressing or sad. There is a dial in the brain that makes you content or depressed and the position of this dial is purely and completely independent of everything else including the circumstances of your life. There is a correlation between your circumstances and your mood but my point is that I know this absolutely to be true: if you could just stick that dial to contentment then everything would be awesome and it wouldn’t impair your ability to live your life fully or grieve properly or whatever. People think that depression is a necessary part of life. This is completely wrong and you could never know it unless you have experienced the literal insanity that I have experienced
Are you sure about the latter? I mean yeah, responsible use and all that, but advising to take even a lightest trip being schizophrenic, depressed and anxious many times a day… I'd stick with the doctor option.
Ever hear of the "Living Well with Schizophrenia" [1] channel on YouTube? Lauren there's got schizoaffective disorder too. She really helped a friend of mine feel less alone with her own schizophrenia.
I work with sex addicts. I've been very surprised (and skeptical) that suicide and various psychological breakdowns weren't being reported as being higher since covid hit.
At least in my little bubble the emotional and psychological struggle has escalated greatly in these covid times of increased anxiety, destroyed routines, and much deeper isolation.
Everyone's trying to cope, one way or another. It's hard to watch.
I personally keep trying to shake the jadedness, getting sucked into technical work for the numbing blanket of my mind, I want to look my family members in the eyes. To be present with them.
Not to be reductive of a complex issue, but when I first discovered feelings wheel,I kept the tab open, and at various points in the day, I would attempt to pinpoint my exact emotional state and sort it into a category. If you don't have the categories, you can't sort things out. A house cannot be clean unless there is a place for everything.
This is about attempts (!) in young (!) women (!). That’s so specific, it’s suffering from multiple-endpoint problems: look at 50 subgroups and some are always going to show some seemingly drastic change.
Here, the reporting of this factoid almost certainly means there was no significant change in actual suicides, or in attempted suicides of the population at large. So both may well be true.
The medication debate, on this forum of smart and reasonable people, comes out as one side yelling 1+1=2 at a crowd who's yelling back that 2+2=4.
Yes, staying on strong mood-neutralizing antidepressants forever isn't a full life and it's probably bad for your liver. Yes, when you are laying in bed and can't do anything, those external factors that are making you hate your life will get worse until something, including a chemical that's bad for your kidneys, gets you up and walking. They are both true at the same time.
This pandemic is very strange mental-wise, all my doctors note that. The US, as far as I understand, has huge lockdowns and that may be the factor, but in my country it's called "an advisory self-isolation" and everyone basically lives their life like before, except wearing masks in public places and mandatory vaccination to visit a mall or a restaurant (also "manageable").
I'm not a social person (age almost 40), and I ought not to feel any consequences of that, cause even a strict lockdown wouldn't change my life too much. And I have a friend who isn't particularly stress-prone (a former warzone guy, 4 kids, a strong mindset).
And guess what, we both experienced numerous acute panic attacks in 2020, without realizing what it was. We both have called an ambulance and thought this is the end of me, only to learn later what panic attack is. And we both never got covid. Doctors say that it is a very common phenomenon to observe. Idk about him, but my mental state I find pretty questionable now, because something induces anxiety in it non-stop from the spring 2020. I don't watch TV, neither read on pandemic situation consciously. Visited therapist for a whole last year.
I can imagine what all that does to regular people, and probably can't imagine what teens may feel about it.
Can anyone share similar observations, or am I just a coincidence?
I went to the emergency room after working from home for ~6 months when the pandemic hit. I was having severe chest pain, shaking uncontrollably, and feeling very uneasy. I thought something was really wrong, and ended up going to the emergency room, where they told me it was a panic attack, and everything was okay physically.
Like you, it was also the first time I had experienced a panic attack and learned what it felt like.
Yeah, the fear of death as they call it. I really didn't understand this phrase before, thinking it was something abstract. It's unlike any other feeling I've had, just off the charts. And I'm (was) not particularly the guy who is scared to watch a horror movie alone in the night.
I've experienced exactly the same as you both except all the way back in 2015 and so I'm going to offer some unsolicited advice in case it's helpful. I had never heard of panic attacks before I got one, had never worried once about my mental health etc. and so I also ended up at the emergency room convinced my death was imminent.
Considering my healthy history my doctor and I agreed to try deal with it on a lifestyle level. I did meditation, yoga and revised my diet. I became more healthy but still had the panic attacks. We then stepped this up to therapy which I did for a year but still had the panic attacks. They were totally random and incredibly draining. My life & work were seriously affected and so I eventually followed the doctors advice to consider medication. Saw a psychiatrist and started the most basic SSRI at the minimum dose for panic disorder. I had a few attacks during the first two weeks and then they just stopped entirely. 100% completely. Haven't had one since.
So - my advice. If you are seriously struggling with panic attacks on a continuing basis despite a reasonable level of lifestyle interventions please don't do what I did and basically resist trying psychiatric medicine because you're healthy, successful and happy in your life and can't see a "legit" reason to be on meds. It felt like a much bigger intervention to me than it really is. I know for some people dealing with this sort of thing isn't this easy but for a lot it seems it can be.
(Also I don't blame my doctors at all, I always felt well informed about the options available to me. Obviously in retrospect with the way my life was affected meant I should have seen a reason to try meds sooner. At least the year of therapy was good for me even though it didn't stop the panic disorder!)
I wonder if something like St Johns wort would be enough to keep the panic attacks at bay if the SSRI is so light. Not that in your shoes I’d want to risk a switch after years of success. But it might be a good thing to try for someone who is hesitant to be prescribed.
Just wanted to add here for anyone considering St. John’s wort - it has a ton of negative interactions with lots of very common drugs, so check to make sure you aren’t already taking something that will interact with St. John’s wort. Ask your doctor.
For example, it can make birth control pills fail, allergy meds build up in your system, and serotonin build up if combined with another anti-depressant.
In my case I tried to convince my therapist to prescribe medications, but he resisted. I mean he more like advised me to try CBT way and only fallback to pills in case of failure, because they only serve as a crutch if your thinking process went wrong. It just happens that some people need this crutch temporarily and will be fine later by themselves. After 4-6 sessions I picked my PAs apart without any medications, but stayed to fix my other issues for a year. So ymmv, I guess.
Yep. The fear is real. I used to be close to someone who had regular panic attacks, and now after my own experience I feel awful about not taking them more seriously.
It might just be different for different people. Like, my lifestyle and mental health got better and people like me can offset people like you (and I do have relative that had issues too).
I'm also curious about non-pandemic factors, such as social media.
Instagram grows in usage during the pandemic. And there's also TikTok. Both of these can highlight how much fun others are having while you're "stuck".
>> The US, as far as I understand, has huge lockdowns and that may be the factor
The US never really locked down after maybe the first two or three week period. The “lockdowns” we had were mostly performative and not really enforced. This is in huge contrast to some cities in Australia for example, where lockdowns were both prolonged (lasting months) and those violating them were smacked down consistently.
And every Australian I know was happy about it too. Australia is very similar to the US, but one difference is that they're less oppositional. Helps that it actually seemed to work though I'm surprised there hasn't been more objection to the lack of tourism.
Of course, it's ineffective against omicron which is just too infectious to be stopped, and they aren't doing it now.
> And every Australian I know was happy about it too
Hmm... that's certainly not universal. I have a couple of Australian's I met travelling on instagram, and they are posting the most extreme anti-lockdown media I've seen (comparing it to nazi germany, etc). Not sure how common that sentiment is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's quite widespread. 18 months is a long time to be locked down for.
Australia has successfully navigated to my no-go list by their insanity. The lack of habeous corpus is very alarming as a tourist. The lack of rule of law it terribly frightening when that is all you can rely on if shit goes sideways on a trip.
Australia has shown they are the same level as the Middle East, e.g. Iran and Afghanistan.
Considering you need permission to walk outside without being locked up, and on top of that, they took away any means of self defense a decade or two ago, it's not much better than Afghanistan's warlord system.
I was in Melbourne for all but the first lockdown, and we were about as "happy" as a patient going in for knee reconstruction. I know that's not what you meant, but the lockdowns really sucked, even if they were the least bad choice and even if most of us agreed with them.
That's not really a lockdown though. You could, for example, still go outside your house whenever you wanted. In many parts of Australia though, you couldn't even go to the park to meet someone.
> Can anyone share similar observations, or am I just a coincidence?
it has been excruciating for me living alone during 2020. Getting out of bed was a battle nearly every day. The pandemic came just in time when I thought I finally learned how to manage a severe depression that got triggered by a burnout, which was lasting over a decade, and included 2 suicide attempts, drug abuse, and losing most people in my life at that time due to my own behavior.
When the pandemic hit I realized that how I felt all these years has become suddenly a very common way people feel all over the world. Depressed, isolated and on the verge of succumbing to darkness.
What I learned for myself (long before the pandemic) is that I need: a strong routine which includes time-boxing not just work but also play. avoid any chemistry that changes the way I feel naturally (sugar, coffee, cigarettes, alcohol, and especially the self-prescribed weed). after reducing anything artificial mentioned, I started facing my emotions. that means stopping everything when a certain feeling hits me, and analyse that feeling telling myself it will eventually pass, but not taking any other action. e.g. I would not continue anything (including eating or drinking) and remain in my chair until I learned that this feeling has no power over me and that just because I feel it, isn't going to change my routine or send me back into my old rut. treating such dark emotions like a "monster" that can only be killed by staring at it until it leaves me alone, prevented sending me back to the dark place.
Another thing that has hugely contributed to recovery was changing the country. I moved to a new place 3x since 2020 and that has me thinking on my feet (new language, new things to discover, different culture, warm people). I have no time to wallow because I'm flooded with new experiences, and am making new memories every day. Even allowed myself to fall in love twice since the pandemic hit. But I'm not ready to bring in other people into "my new world".
The pandemic shook me awake. I realized there is a danger out there that is at least as scary as the darkness that lives in myself or anything I could do to myself. It made me realize that I need to screw my 5 or 10 year plans and do whatever I want right now or perhaps never will get a chance. It's not that I am in an easier situation than a family with toddlers, because my kids are grown up, my ex wife is god knows where, and so I can just go and do as I please. But the story I tell myself today is very different than 5 or 10 years ago. To paraphrase Don Draper in Mad Men: "If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation." (and this especially applies to the dialogue in my head)
Can you share which country you liked the best? I'm an expat living in Germany and I would characterize the people and culture here as the opposite of 'warm'. It's really taken its toll on my psyche in the last years...
hard to say. a lot of it is hindsight and doesn't reflect how I felt when I was there. it can be excruciating until you go from surviving to thriving. or it can be damaging staying in a toxic place too long.
every country I go to has a "honey moon" phase that lasts until reality hits when I'm forced to integrate (learn the language, start working, etc ...). Some countries are harder than others. On one hand I'm tempted to live an expat live (surround myself with foreigners and other people who are outward looking and who have a similar view on life), on the other hand, faster integration happens when facing the reality (and the struggle).
Less money upon arrival limits the honey-moon phase. Too much money could mean prolonging inertia.
These days I prefer Mediterranean countries where things are less "efficient", and I'm forced to adapt to a slower and more chaotic pace. I'm in love (put up) with the "chaos" of Latin countries. But finding work is also harder and requires sacrifices to what projects I accept and salary. Finding a local job with a terrible salary however can be better for the language skills.
It's hard to make an argument for Mediterranean places when most projects that pay well are abroad, so if salary is crucial for you maybe remote work can help.
After my honey-moon phase is over it gets really tough and staying put can be a horror. Having interests outside of work (e.g. history and culture of the place) usually gets me through. And I tend to stay longer if I learned the language and understood how locals live (which for me is the whole point of doing it).
If you build a client base as a freelancer all across Europe (or whatever continent) then the country itself doesn't matter so much. But you may end up without a real "home". I know that no matter how cool I think it is in the first 2 years, ultimately I will want to get out. Knowing my time is limited (e.g. 2-3 years max) allows me to stay positive and appreciate every day at the place I'm at. Usually I have milestones of what I want to achieve before I go there (that are always personal goals and have nothing to do with work. e.g. work is a means to an end and to achieve that private goal)
But to answer your question I'd say I like it anywhere with an ocean, and great food. If the food is bland usually the rest is less appealing. German food is not my thing but history and culture can make up for it. And there are plenty of international restaurants. So to live in Germany happily salary has to support eating out 3-4 times per week. Some places I liked would be Ireland (I dislike Dublin). Cork and Limerick are awesome, Palermo (or Rome), Madrid, Bilbao (I dislike Barcelona), Toulouse, Aix-en-Provence, Lisbon, Porto, Malta, Lausanne/Geneve, Copenhagem, Malmö ... even Eastern Europe (Belgrad, Zagreb) but only with remote jobs and with strictly time-boxed stay.
Some places in Germany are (IMHO) easier than others. Frankfurt is a sh!thole, the best thing about Munich is the highway to Austria (that will lead ultimately to Italy), Berlin is OK depending if you still want to party every night. Aachen & Cologne or Duesseldorf are more relaxed than Bavaria and I find people there really friendly and open. Again Bavaria is a nightmare IMHO. Although Duesseldorf or Cologne can get boring if you are with a partner or (gulp) kids, ... at least for my taste.
Luxembourg can be great but it's built on holding companies and off-shore money, so the scene can get a bit seedy and very banking/insurance oriented. I love Paris (single), but with kids it's a nightmare.
If you don't like Germany try Vienna. It's a bit more laid back than Berlin/Munich, and has culturally a lot to offer. Switzerland is equally cool due to the many meet-ups, winter-sports, mountaineering, great salary ... but can be equally tough as Germany especially if you're not planning on learning German. I think language is key. If I can't motiva...
You're not the only one and more level-headed psychologists have warned about this pretty early last year. People are bombarded with horror news about ever rising case numbers of this 'killer virus' on a daily basis. Read up on mass psychosis and mass psychology in general. There are many documented cases in the past, but this time with the internet and our ever more connected world we seem to have a case gone global. The media plays a major part, just look at how case numbers are reported without putting them in relation to the total number of tests done. It's reported when water is tested positive for sars-cov-2, but then negative aspects of the panic are downplayed by for example reporting the increase in suicide attempts as 22.3% + 39.1% in this article. As we know from surveys the average reader will not understand this adds up to around 70% more suicide attempts since the start of the pandemic, because most people aren't good at math.
I'm certain if people were bombarded with touching individual case reports of people, including children, suffering under the measures and not just under the effects of the virus, public opinion would be different. As it is the reporting is very one sided though with everyone focused on the virus to the point that nothing else matters anymore to many. It's not surprising that this can induce panic, I find it scary myself.
> It's reported when water is tested positive for sars-cov-2, but then negative aspects of the panic are downplayed by for example reporting the increase in suicide attempts as 22.3% + 39.1% in this article. As we know from surveys the average reader will not understand this adds up to around 70% more suicide attempts since the start of the pandemic, because most people aren't good at math.
I think the article split those numbers out because one was in summer and the other year over year in winter: you can't just sum them because among other reasons there is a seasonality component to suicide I believe.
> case numbers are reported without putting them in relation to the total number of tests done.
One other quirk of our society that has become clear is that what you hear in the media is absolutely correlated to which media you consume. In my experience, which is 99% reading news sites online, the testing is absolutely reported. Even emphasized, and made clear that the positivity % is a more telling metric than the number of cases. And that hospital utilization is the true metric we're trying to keep down.
FWIW, 22.3% was the 2019 -> 2020 stat, and 39.1% was the 2020->2021 stat. I'm really not sure what you mean by saying that stats from two separate years add up to 70%. Especially when those number do not.
But the article wasn’t reporting successive increases. The 22.3% was summer 2020 over summer 2019, while the 39.1% was the winter over the previous winter.
There’s not enough information reported to conclude that those increases “stack”.
>In my experience, which is 99% reading news sites online, the testing is absolutely reported
I've never ONCE in years, seen cases reported along with tests given and I look at sites of all political ideologies. You can go look in the front page of the New York times right now and there's just case counts with no indication of how many tests have been given. Same with WaPo.
It kind of boggles my mind how you could even say that.
That's kind of evidence of mass formation psychosis?
> Read up on mass psychosis and mass psychology in general.
The entire anti-vaxxer movement makes perfect sense if you look at it like a mass psychosis of denial and a trauma response.
Questioning the mainstream media is a bit of a meme these days and unfortunately most people that bring up this point have a bit of an agenda to say the least, but: One thing that’s bothered me about the MSM from the start of the pandemic is the market fueled necessity to keep pumping out “news” when nothing important has happened.
Our desire to keep ourselves more informed has perhaps created this MSM monster that now through overexposure of fear and all other negative emotions that “sell” themselves are responsible for the trauma response that is conspiracy theories, flat out denial and a lack of consideration of expertise, not only for the pandemic but for climate change and much more.
I’d argue that the mandatory vaccine crowd are exactly the same.
Edpecially when natural immunity is completely overlooked.
Also I beleive that everytime officcials and MSM and threads like these completely undermine and ignore the millions of people who are traumatized by the pretty rough vaccine side effects ( Moderna is no joke ). these people wonder what else os being hidden.
And the gap becomes wider and more fantatic.
There is no anti vaxx movement.
As so many people are being infected anyway, odd are they are not showing up for boosters once infected.
And sinve the vaccine cards expire in 9 months (EU), you are never getting the entire EU population to show up for yearly inoculation.
Especially those who got infected anyway and those who suffered pretty badly by the vaccines but are ruthelessly dismissed.
Anti vaxx movement is dead.
The vaccines are incredibly leaky, and cause pretty severe side effects especially in young men.
They do not allow society to resume normality even if 100% are vaccinated ( do the math, the effect wears off so fast that its impossible to keep 100% even if every single himan on the planet had access and diligently showed up ).
The anti vaxx sentiment is dead. It died with omicron.
In a year all but older people i the rich west and possibly health care workers will techincally be considered unvaccinated.
Also, masks still made no difference in the spread.
Not even a dent in Omicron.
Only countries with high natural immunity has had relatively lower omicron curves.
Try the antivaxxer/antimasker /smooth brain/trumpis propaganda all you want in the virtual world.
In the real one, parents want their children back to school.
Elderly want to enjoy the few uears they have left outside of covid prison.
Young people want to meet and fuck other young people.
And evrr single officcial MSM praised health expert has turned out to be not only wrong, but laid a platform for intruse sureveillance and degrading humans to nothing more than viral plague hosts that most be muffled, injected and locked up.
Tldr; antivaxxer as a basis for the hatred of common hunan desire to find someone to hate is dead. Vaccines and masks are nowhere near what was promised and omicron proved it
I find your conflation of support for vaccines with support for lockdowns rather odd, because vaccines are the main thing that lessens the need for social restrictions!
> Anti vaxx movement is dead. The vaccines are incredibly leaky, and cause pretty severe side effects especially in young men. They do not allow society to resume normality even if 100% are vaccinated ( do the math, the effect wears off so fast that its impossible to keep 100% even if every single himan on the planet had access and diligently showed up ).
They are leaky, but not incredibly so. They show around 70-80% protection (with 3 doses for Omicron, 2 for earlier variants). That's a massive difference, especially when you consider that for a second-order transmission that reduces the chance by 80% of the 20% remaining, making it 95% effective and so on.
As a young person who has had ongoing side effects from the vaccine, I have to say that I'm the only person I know who has had this problem. It's very rare. Similar side effects from covid itself are much more common in all demographic categories (except for moderna in young men - they should get a different vaccine).
80% isn't protection. 80% still gets you pregnant.
Honestly, it's probably healthier for everyone to turn off the news for a half year, and did not worry about it. If you get sick, take care of it. If you don't, take care of those who do.
Lose weight. Exercise. Eat healthy. Live your life. Build and nurture friendships. Find and improve hobbies. Grow your family. You'll be fine until you die. But you can die any and every day for any arbitrary reason, so forget COVID and start taking care of life.
> If you get sick, take care of it. If you don't, take care of those who do.
Hospitals were getting overwhelmed. So "taking care of it" for many was not as trivial as the usual flu. Consider that 40% of adults in the US are obese which is a complicating factor for unvaxed infection.
While I agree there is an element of personal responsibility to obesity, the industrialized food system is rigged to make everyone fat if they live long enough.
It requires winning the genetic lottery or having a significant amount of self control to maintain a healthy weight as one ages. In some places healthier food is also more expensive, such as in major cities and food deserts.
Until the food industries are regulated more responsibility it's unrealistic and cruel for those of us born to be thinner to demand people 'just' exercise more and eat less.
People with 2 dose vaccinations are well protected from serious disease, taking up small fraction of hospital capacity (less intensive, shorter stays). Boosted folks are taking up less than that. It probably doesn't matter a lot for healthy people under 30, but that leaves an awful lot of people over 30 or with health problems where the available vaccines are hugely protective.
> They show around 70-80% protection (with 3 doses for Omicron, 2 for earlier variants)
That protection level lasts for about two months and then nosedives to uselessness[0].
If we keep pumping people with boosters, the manufacturers and the media aren't going to be able to keep suppressing reporting about the resulting heart issues the mRNA vaccines cause in many people[1].
Again, the vaccines are astoundingly leaky and were designed for a variant of the virus that hasn't existed in any meaningful way for a while.
People with only natural immunity from any variant are shown to have much better protection than mRNA vaccinated and boosted people[2].
The current vaccines are leaky enough that any reductions in social restrictions below strict lockdown mean pretty much everyone is going to get Covid, generally over a very short time period. There doesn't seem to be any way around this. Also, the feasibility of putting lesser restrictions in place to try and spread the hospital load out is damaged by the fact that protection from vaccination fades relatively quickly - and that doesn't just seem to affect protection against infection, but also hospitalization and death. They're effective at reducing the number of deaths but just aren't the way out people like to claim they are.
“Pretty much everyone is going to get COVID” is how I feel as well, just like pretty much everyone is going to get the flu across any given 50 year span. Some will die from it, most will not. (C19 is obviously worse than a typical flu, but by less than a decimal order of magnitude.)
Then the interesting question is what to do about it. You can give up a lot of life’s freedoms and enjoyment to maybe cut that 50-year risk in half. Is that worth it? To my reckoning: Not to me, not to my elderly parents, and not to my kids. I’m thankful that my kids are at least pre-teen and not (yet) teen or college age where our choices are hitting much harder.
I guess if people are making their decisions based on a belief that significant reductions in hospitalization aren't beneficial, that explains something.
That graph is from the UK, where most of the people spending time in hospital due to Covid are vaccinated. The thing is that as you can see from the graph, there's a huge difference in hospitalisation rates between age groups, and in the UK there's not that many unvaccinated people amongst the high-risk age groups. (Actually, I'd be interested what the error bars on that are because they're subtracting vaccinations from the population estimate to get the denominator of total unvaccinated people and it seems like that'd be very sensitive to errors in their population estimate.)
So there is a signficant reduction in the risk of hospitalisation from vaccination right now, but we're seeing close to all the benefit that we're likely to at least from a society-wide perspective. There's no way to stop the hospital system from collapsing just by rounding up the remaining unvaccinated and getting them vaccinated. (Individual unvaccinated people might of course get a lot of personal benefit from getting jabbed, depending on age and health.)
> They show around 70-80% protection (with 3 doses for Omicron, 2 for earlier variants).
What is the absolute risk reduction you get from the shots? “95% effective” is a relative risk reduction and only refers to severe illness or death, not infection or transmission (neither of which were studied).
> E[s]pecially when natural immunity is completely overlooked.
The one thing about natural immunity is that it does not prevent the transmission or spread of the virus on a population level. For example, prior to the ’90s, there were yearly outbreaks of varicella among school aged children despite the fact that at least 99% of the adult population has natural immunity to the disease.
After widespread vaccination, outbreaks of that disease are practically unheard of.
For the same virus, the CDC recommends that healthy adults over 50 years of age who have prior immunity get 2 additional doses of another formulation of that vaccine to prevent a resurgence of the same disease in older adults.
On another note, if the percentage of the population immune to a certain viral illness drops below a certain threshold because a subset of the population is refusing vaccination, then outbreaks will occur. It happened a few years ago with measles.
> The vaccines are incredibly leaky, and cause pretty severe side effects especially in young men
Do you have sources backing up this statement?
As for the concept of "leaky" vaccines, you need to realize that vaccines have never had 100% effectiveness and that their effectiveness is through achieving the goal of getting a high percentage of the population immune to a particular disease, something that's never really achieved by relying on natural immunity on its own.
Unfortunately, the parts of your comment pertaining to spread, immunity, and vaccinations are not accurate and rely on assumptions that are known to be false. Many people keep trying to counter bad information, but it seems like a battle that's not winnable[1].
Mentally, VR has helped us a lot during the pandemic. Yes, it’s far from perfect and it’s not entirely the same as being physically there; but it is just awesome being able to hang out with family and friends in VR and have a sense of space. We workout together; or play racquetball, bowling, darts, ping pong, board games, or fish to name a few activities. These are people who are hundreds or even thousands of miles away. Some aren’t even in the same continent. Way better than a phone call or FaceTime / Zoom. Without it, my anxiety would seemingly get out of hand at times. I don’t live alone, but I also get somewhat isolated without it.
Outside of the pandemic, I can see parents using this as a convenient way to “hangout” and catch up with friends.
It’s too bad Facebook destroyed their reputation, or a lot more people would be trying it out and enjoying it at their $299 price point, especially the past two years. While PCVR is an option, it’s too expensive for normal people (starting around $2400 for everything) and setup is not easy for the non-technical.
Strange is an understatement. I can very much relate.
But if I'm being honest, so much has improved for me during the pandemic that I don't know how to feel about it.
I feel very guilty for saying this because people are dying and I've got more privilege than I can handle, but consider the following:
I was already anxious and depressed and wanted to self-isolate. Now everyone is anxious and depressed and forced to self-isolate.
I used to hate interactions with random people, especially delivery drivers. Now nobody wants to interact with anybody.
Being a remote worker was sort of weird. Now I can be remote and competitive.
There's so much more good content because everyone is at home and online. Also bigger gaming playlists.
Being a science news junkie has unlocked some real world value about how to best stay safe.
I learned a lot about how the public gets information and got rid of some "vaccine hesitant" friends and family.
mRNA vaccines are going to treat so many diseases so much faster now. HIV vaccine soon!
It used to be strange to wear a mask anywhere, even though it will keep you from getting sick during flu season, but now it's become normalized.
I'm sure there's a bunch of other things that I've already gotten used to and forgotten about, but mostly it's made avoiding face-to-face contact possible in pretty much every situation, which is really working for me right now.
Sure, I'm dissociating as years drift by with absolutely no social contact or memories, but I was probably going to do that anyway.
For me, this used to be a "mental health issue". Now I'm just responsible!
Of course, I won't be shocked if the virus ends up mutating in a way that wipes out humanity... but so far, with a little bit of luck, it's been a pretty big improvement for me personally.
I hope we somehow bring this to a sane resolution the same as everyone else, but I'm going to capitalize on this guilt-free way to self-isolate for as long as I reasonably can.
Clearly this some sort of bad and unhealthy way to live, but it's kind of comfy. I think English may lack a term for how this feels.
Agoraphobia describes the anxiety that drives the behavior. English also has the phrase "shut-in" as well as the Japanese loan-word hikikomori, though that describes a person's behavior rather than the feeling behind the behavior.
>I think English may lack a term for how this feels [comfy + unhealthy].
Perhaps we need a word. It would be a good one, since the best words combine complex, even opposite concepts. My first thought was "sickly-sweet". I also like the new phrase "doom scrolling", combining the dramatic and the banal, which also kind of applies. Somehow the phrase "doom snuggle" comes to mind (although this sounds more like a situation resulting in an unusable arm). Maybe better is "isolace", a portmanteau describing the solace of isolation.
I had a series of severe panic attacks in beginning of December 2021. Ended up in emergency.
To be clear, i have chronic anxiety which got worse due to me moving to another country where i don't have any relatives. On top of that i was very overworked.
It's been a month since then and i still can't recover. It's very hard for me to go outside. If i go to unfamiliar places or there's too much people i start feeling like panic attack is building up. And on work, i can't concentrate, and have mild panic attacks during meetings(if i have to speak). Took a few weeks vacation which is ending in few days. And i feel like i'm still not ready to start working...
It's your body getting a signal through, having to break through only with a panic level cascade, to get an unconscious understanding that the situation unfolding globally is potentially life threatening in an relatively uncontrollable way - and also perhaps observing the authoritarian control mechanisms being implemented around the world may have also lead to your mind extrapolating to that could become someone else wanting to "cage" you - whether you want to or not, taking away your free will; worth panicking for if you're not yet conscious of that possibility.
I've already found the source (or more correctly the trigger) of my panic attacks and while it was in the same plane you're assuming, the rest of it doesn't really match. I'm a very "free" guy who hates dumb restrictions. These restrictions could be potentially imposed in my neighborhood, unrelated to covid situation. Once I realized that with the help of my therapist, PAs reduced substantially and later went away. I would even agree with the idea of "caging", but I usually cage myself much more successfully than any pandemic measures do. I just thought about my feelings for the last hour and my anxiety is probably/in part about the mass media hysteria rather than restrictions. Compared to e.g. 2018 the entire existence background is filled with that constant creepy infonoise.
Anyway, it was a trigger and not the reason, you may turn out to be pretty close on that.
I think we're probably talking about the same thing, I could've been more careful with my language though. I don't think there's use in my working through to figure out better nuanced language to use, otherwise I'm glad you found resolution to the anxiety triggered.
> .../ everyone basically lives their life like before, except wearing masks in public places and mandatory vaccination to visit a mall or a restaurant (also "manageble").
Most places I go in public (mainly grocery/retail stores) it's around 40% of the people I see do not wear masks, even when signs are clearly posted. I'm out in public far less than I was 2 years ago, so perhaps I'm statistically unlucky in seeing particularly 'bad' times, but probably not.
Interestingly, the Apple store in town was the only place I've ever seen where it was 100% mask usage, and they had some folks at the front that calmly but firmly prevented entrance without a mask. I saw that twice over a 3 month period, but... perhaps they've reverted now?
"Has" is the present tense. Nowhere in the US currently has "huge lockdowns". Also I wouldn't describe the New York full lockdown as lasting a very long time. The most severe lockdown in New York lasted just a few months and was much shorter than lockdowns in many regions of the world.
Kinda surprised I didn't have a worse reaction. I lived alone in a very small <350sf apartment.
One thing I did fairly early on was to get a therapist though. My reasoning was that they could basically help monitor my situation. Not that I don't have things to discuss with a therapist anyways. It helped I guess. No panic attacks, just some sleep issues and minor hallucinations.
The research paper[1] in the Lancet from Feb. 2020, on the psychological effects of quarantine predicted this.
I think while the first quarantine / lock-down could not be avoided, the current situation could be avoided if we were able to battle the misinformation and reach 90% vaccination in every country.
This pandemic is more severe than it has to be because it's also a mental health crisis. The people engaging in anti-vaxx conspiracies sound out of touch and deluded, but I think this is their way to cope. (believing in magic, wishful thinking, denial, are all pretty common with disease/health issues or in the face of uncertainty). Like an ostrich sticking their head into the sand it's probably how they deal with many other challenges in life too.
Question really is how to go forward. Those who say "let it rip" might have an agenda to kill as many people as possible on the planet (out of spite but probably because they're themselves deeply depressed or isolated).
One proposal that many hate but could stop the pandemic is to allow exception for certain cases prescribed by a doctor, but for everybody else vaccination has to be mandatory. We did it with measles and smallpox, so why not with covid?
______
[1]
Summary:
We did a Review of the psychological impact of quarantine using three electronic databases. Of 3166 papers found, 24 are included in this Review. Most reviewed studies reported negative psychological effects including post-traumatic stress symptoms, confusion, and anger. Stressors included longer quarantine duration, infection fears, frustration, boredom, inadequate supplies, inadequate information, financial loss, and stigma. Some researchers have suggested long-lasting effects. In situations where quarantine is deemed necessary, officials should quarantine individuals for no longer than required, provide clear rationale for quarantine and information about protocols, and ensure sufficient supplies are provided. Appeals to altruism by reminding the public about the benefits of quarantine to wider society can be favourable.
Vaccination cannot solve this. Herd immunity cannot be established with the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines, due to high transmissibity amongst the vaccinated.
The problem is misinformation, but not the kind you refer to. The misinformation is in the impression given that COVID-19 is a much more dangerous virus than it is really is, especially for the non-elderly.
Most of the public over-estimates the risk of COVID, by 10 to 100 times:
As much as I hate anti vaxxers, global vaccination is simply not possible in any ammount of time that would have stopped the pandemic. It will be a routine vaccine worldwide only after the virus went endemic anyway.
695 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 393 ms ] threadThe lockdowns are what has caused soaring mental health issues across whole sections of the population.
Maybe all of this is a little bit of ageism, but we see that on the opposite end if the age spectrum too and I guess moving to a competency based test isn't practical.
Dont forget the US Supreme court where you literally cling to your job till you die. Those judges are one of the most selfish and egoistic people on earth.
> In 2002, then-President Jiang Zemin tried to clear the ranks at the top of the party by instituting retirement age limits: 68 for top leaders and 65 for senior level officials. That rule has been followed with varying degrees of success. Mr Jiang himself delayed his own retirement. He stayed on as the chairman of China's military for two years until 2004 after relinquishing his other positions to his successor, Hu Jintao.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-21783353
NOMINATION age between is 58-67. Lower for deputy / provincial levels. Provincial leaders has to retire by 60-65. National leaders have no formal retirement age, but are expected to retire at 70-75. There's also other norms like "seven up, eight down" for standing committee. Xi hasn't broken any age limit rules / norms so far, despite heavy speculation (Qang Qishan in 2017). I would say age limit is treated also sacricant vs term limits, which doesn't even apply to the most important positions for ruling PRC in case of Xi - general secretary, chairman of PLA. There's no good reason for west to throw conniptions over Xi being a dictator for life for another 5-7 years.
We also locked up an entire generation of zoomers in a house for two years. I was all for lockdowns in early COVID since we didn't know what we were dealing with, but we kept schools closed for far, far too long.
The unfair property taxes in California and similar states is certainly wealth transfer though, which got vastly more unfair.
Central bank balance sheet coupled with debt monetization debases fiat. That means if I worked for an hour and made $10 and your house goes up by 30%, I can buy less house while you can borrow against your house at low interest rates to buy more financial assets or even my time.
From what I understand California has some of the lowest property taxes in the country and Prop 13 let owners lock in their tax basis for life.
In reality it's a little bit more complicated since the financing cost of the house has to be considered (principal + interest over the lifetime of the loan), instead of the notional value of the house (and refinancing throws another wrench into the equation).
But as a first order approximation, if houses got more expensive in labor-hours then that's a transfer from labor to capital (and a "hidden" tax on anyone holding USD).
Yes, labor is how wealth is produced, but in a sense, an individual's labor is more than that: a person's unrealized wealth is the discounted future value of their lifetime income minus necessary survival expenses. That's not a constant number - it depends on the individual's choices, but nevertheless, that is some number. And that number has some associated optionality.
If we increase the price of houses, the optionality associated with that future stream of earnings decreases, and therefore I believe that wealth has actually been transferred (since the optionality of the homeowner increases)
Economics is the study of scarcity. Wealth is real stuff like the house.
"Unrealized wealth" or "The potential to create wealth" or "the future value of your skills" shifts around, sure. Not the same thing as actual wealth though. And these shifts of theoretical outcomes are not transfers of wealth. This sounds like straining to fit something to emotional language.
...as Marx made, yes. And he was a pretty sharp cookie, so maybe the argument is correct.
> Inflation has eaten into real wages even with increases.
Interestingly not true for homeowners because of fixed-rate mortgages. Or people not currently purchasing a car.
Most of the time the money is passed onto the next generation. But here's the current problem: the boomers, as a generation, have a lot of assets, specifically housing, locked up as rentals. This has caused house to shoot up (though it is not the only factor).
If the boomers die, I suspect that a large number of homes would become available at reasonable prices within the year of the death. For example, my parents own multiple rental homes (only of one of which they constructed for the express purpose of renting on a plot of land that the city thought was undevelop-able). When they die, my sister and I will sell the properties. While she lives near them, she doesn't want to manage them, and I don't since I live far away.
By allowing the boomers to live longer, these assets remain locked up. They can continue to rent seek at the expense of the generations that came after them. This means that multiple generations, particularly millennials and zoomers are screwed.
Let's say the opposite reaction happened and we prioritized heathy youths over vulnerable seniors. There would have been orders of magnitude more deaths by now, society would have collapsed in some places temporarily or permanently as healthcare systems break down entirely.
The wealth transfer from the youth to the elderly is nothing new, it's been pretty continuous and generally correlates with elderly population. Covid just put pressure on the whole system.
Not just some abstract "pandemic" but specific policies adopted by specific people. Don't turn it into a Hegelian providence as if no one is responsible and it's a self propagating process that would happen regardless.
- people couldn't go on vacation so they all switched to buying durable goods at the same time. (that's why supply chains don't hold up, it's a crisis of abundance not deprivation.)
- workers in some industries died (like meatpacking) or quit (like restaurants).
- we haven't built enough houses since 1970 and everyone decided to buy a house at once.
It's not because of stimulus though; making people poorer so they can't buy cars is not a good solution to cars being too expensive.
The shutdown lasted for far too long. Mock Florida all you want, but they weathered the pandemic far better than many states with strict lockdown regimes (California/New York). Consider Florida has one of (if not the) largest senior populations in the US too.
> Many countries do not have the health infrastructure the US has and have not undergone societal collapse.
What does this mean? We have universal healthcare and in my city emergency services are so overwhelmed and overworked the wait time for the past day is over an hour. You could probably rob a storefront in open daylight and get away with it right now.
The US is the highly developed country poster child for fucking up handling Covid. Other countries don't need whatever impressive health infrastructure you're alluding to because they responded better in the first place.
Finally, I don't have a horse in this race besides not letting people die, but I'd like to point out that Florida current situation looks like hot garbage to me. You couldn't pay me to go there right now.
That tells more about your healthcare system than about anything else. My city had virtually no lockdowns (but 2 weeks at the beginning until the measure became really unpopular), nobody ever cared about distancing or masking, the vaccination rates are low as hell, schools and businesses work as usual and yet here we are safe and sound. No societal collapse you promise, no mass extinction, nothing. Some people in their 80s died which is a tragedy since that had never happened before (aren't people supposed to live forever). But other than that, life as usual. What are we doing wrong?
Is it because of the vaccinated or unvaccinated people?
[1] http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=states-...
You could also look at per county data to compare counties in Florida with counties with similar demographics in other states, or dive into the breakdowns that states give by age group.
Do all that and it will become clear that Florida's terrible delta wave outcome is because the state government largely stopped taking COVID preventative measures, and actively tried to stop local governments and businesses from doing so.
Overall, if you have a big house, country cottages, and lots of investments, you got a lot richer in the last couple years. If you live in a small apartment and work a low skill job, you have to keep doing that, for way less pay after inflation, have to find a way to look after your kids at home, and can't go outside except to work, because "we're all in this together"
The whole episode has been a serious step back in human equality
There are legit shortages driving inflation in big categories, but wages are up too. Average wages in non-supervisory roles are up over 10% compared to two years ago, restaurant roles nearly 14%.
Inflation directly hurts people with lots of savings in low yield accounts, not the working poor. That's not to say they did well compared to the rich in the pandemic, just that inflation taken as a single factor doesn't single them out.
A friend's grandmother died alone, without having seen friends or family for months, shut in her room in a care facility during 2020.
I suppose you are one of the people who would also tell us that house arrest is "not hard".
My implication though was that elderly were not "isolated from any contact with people they depend on for basic survival needs" in cases where they were put in assisted living facilities, because they provide for basic survival needs.
> I suppose you are one of the people who would also tell us that house arrest is "not hard".
Never implied that.
But if you think that most "living facilities", even when "fully staffed" are a good place to leave an older person without regular visits, I am going to disagree with you.
> A heightened appreciation about mental health in 2020 might have prompted parents to get their children mental health treatment, they said.
> “Conversely, by spending more time at home together with young persons, adults might have become more aware of suicidal thoughts and behaviors, and thus been more likely to take their children to the ED," according to the report.
Happy to see a correlation != causation disclaimer.
I wonder if there is any chance of actual actionable data being teased out.
Also, having young children is incredibly isolating, and already something like a lockdown in itself. Humans in that position are supposed to go out and see as many people as they can, usually in the form of meeting other parents at their houses, cafes, parks, etc. All of that was illegal, at least where I lived. My blood still boils thinking of how horribly harmful that was.
Humans are social creatures. How are lockdowns and social distancing not causal? There's a reason long distance relationships fail and solitary confinement is an ultimate punishment.
Add to this doomsday news on loop, confusing messaging on vaccines.
I also have too, too much anecdata to counter this.
I spent time helping families during the COVID crisis. The amount of confusion and uncertainty generated by the pandemic hit many families hard especially in states with strict lockdown regimes.
I have friends who work as RCs at a top university: they are swamped with students devastated by the pandemic who are uncertain of what their futures hold given the gap.
I have friends whose four year old has began pulling her hair out for no reason early on in the pandemic. They started taking her to a private prek that was opened. It stopped.
???
“ Research has even shown that long distance couples tend to have the same or more satisfaction in their relationships than couples who are geographically close, and higher levels of dedication to their relationships and less feelings of being trapped.”
https://time.com/5316307/best-long-distance-relationship-tip...
People basically get what they want tk hear out of it, instead of checking whether the same standard yields different results elsewhere
There is no doubt that that the pandemic is making things so so much worse but there’s also a danger in scapegoating it and then being collectively “shocked” when it doesn’t get better when things go back to normal.
0) Physically away from school 1) Poor learning experience 2) Spending more time with parents 3) Relatives getting sick and dying 4) Dire medical news everywhere 5) Dire political news everywhere 6) Dire environmental news everywhere 7) Many parents lost jobs 8) Many parents lost income 9) Children pressured to (not) take vaccines 10) People (not) wearing masks / Kids pressured to (not) wear masks 11) Away from friends 12) Evictions 13) Excessive drug use 14) Excessive social media use 15) Affected by evolving social justice issues
So there could well be some causation there, but which things are causing what is not immediately clear.
Is ED the emergency department? Or something else?
Luckily, all my friends are fellow techies who are upper-middle class, and can afford medication and therapy (and in one case, out-of-state long-term hospitalization.) But even with insurance, they're looking at many thousands of dollars of treatment.
It makes me sick to my stomach to think of all the lower-class parents who are terrified of their kids killing themselves, but can't afford therapy or psychiatry visits, and can't get pro-bono help (apparently the wait lists are several months long in many cities.)
It's past time the West reckons with our mental health crisis. Why is it that we're the wealthiest nations in the world, yet our kids are more stressed and depressed than kids in third-world countries? I think society will only become more and more unstable until we spend time seriously addressing that question and adjust our culture accordingly.
We spent decades digging this grave
The reason kids were stuck online all day over the past two years is not urban planning; it is because kids were not allowed to go to school or socialize.
You can make claims against the base rate this way, but not against the increase over the past two years.
(also, I have no reason to think that urban kids are in a better mental state than suburban ones this pandemic, and have anecdotal reasons to think the opposite).
Suburban areas with yards and neighborhood playgrounds not owned by the city are were kids actually could and did socialize during the pandemic.
> #2 kept their infection waves in check with early quick nuanced NPI instead of waiting until only the big hammer could help
No place succeeded at this, other than small island nations. This is a fake narrative.
#2 wasn't about suppressing the virus to zero (true, no place succeeded at, not even China), it as about avoiding long stretches of strong countermeasures by applying lighter countermeasures earlier. They still required some escalation for maybe a few weeks but that's far from what people had who had to dig themselves out from underneath a massive wave they ran into at full speed.
The places that locked down earlier stayed locked down, and the places that locked down later re-opened earlier. No state stayed locked down to "dig themselves out of a hole"; that's not how any of the waves played out.
However, there were a plethora of parks, ponds, baseball and basketball courts, skateboarding parks, and an ice rink nearby that were somewhat walkable.
Yeah I spent a little too much time on the computer but I did have a social life and went outside a lot doing all kinds of fun.
I think you are underestimating how much fun kids can have with not very much. I agree that we have serious cultural problems but I think urban planning is the wrong culprit here.
I think at least some of it is lazy parenting who are content with just giving their kids an iPad or throwing them in front of the TV for entertainment.
You know what my sister did with her friends for “fun”? They wrote and acted out plays. This wasn’t that long ago, it was in the 90s.
That's because social media is deliberately designed to be addictive. Zuckerberg et al know this, but don't care, because all they care about is their proftis.
Parents have stuff to do and also nothing to do on playground. So they stop taking kids there once those are over toddler age and won't destroy house put of sheer energy. Playgrouds are boring and 9-11 years old truly have nothing to do there without friends group.
So 6-10 years old kids are rarely outside. They know how to have fun at home and school, but they have no community in park and don't know games. Then they are 14-16 and everyone is like "why don't they go outside? there is basketball court". But shooting balls alone is fun for like two days and they don't known to have fun there.
I’m glad there are people for whom medication and therapy works. I hope more people can get access to medication. I’m also sad that there isn’t more being done to address root causes.
>Urban planning is setup so you can't get anywhere without a car so kids are stuck online all day.
This wasn't a problem in the 70s and 80s. Kids would just ride their bikes everywhere.
>We don't have public spaces where you aren't expected to spend money.
Apart from playgrounds, parks, libraries, community groups, all kinds of events... I don't think we've ever had more free public services than in the 21st century.
>Our food is tainted and industrialized to have less nutrition.
This is true for processed food, but we still have less malnutrition (macro and micro) today compared to any point in the 20th century.
I think it's really easy to pick the popular talking points from one's tribe and pose them as the problem/solution in any particular situation. If the goal is to actually identify/solve the problem, though, this more often than not is ineffective.
Amazing book, everyone should go read it.
Edit, looked it up: https://frontporchne.com/article/parents-threatened-jail-fre...
There are wast suburban areas without public parks and libraries. They are meant for living only, so if you live there, you really need car
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/communi...
https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/04/neighbors-of-free-r...
This also answers your questions about public spaces they can use without you.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-aN...
The other big thing that caused kids to go inside was fear of abduction. 24/7 cable news, starting in the 80s, was constantly stoking fear of this.
In the 80's I remember watching an Oprah (while sick at home, watching TV was the way to get well, because it I hated it so much) on Adam Walsh's murder. His body was found near were I lived a few years before. I believe this was the beginning of the "your kids will be kidnapped and murdered" hysteria.
Parents reacted to this pulling their kids closer to home and when video games became a thing, it wasn't even hard to keep them inside anymore. Now, with cell phones, the battle is completely lost. These devices give kids (and everyone that uses them) little squirts of pleasure all day long.
I've been an avid walker for 26 years. Not until the pandemic did I ever see people outside (kids or adults), except people walking a dog to let it crap somewhere. I guess that's one good side effect of it.
Would a mentally healthy, self-efficacious population be more or less likely realize their problems and organize collective action to correct their situation?
Do they even have poor mental health there? It's quite likely, but most people throughout history lived in terrible conditions, sometimes resorting to cannibalism way back in the day[1], and probably did not have depression from it. It's all about relative expectations.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_antecessor#Cannibalism
And seems like mental health professionals are overconfident that their methods work. And the evidence that they do is weak, especially for the talk therapy.
3 months right now is extremely fast to see someone in a clinic with a social work degree. Was told the actual Psychiatrists or Psychologists are completely full for an indefinite amount of time (As in years on the wait list).
And this is paying out of pocket.
And we were told directly from the clinics themselves, that the pandemic has led to an explosion in the number of clients.
OK. But doing so would admit that our entire system is broken.
It's not that more kids born today want to off themselves, it's that our system makes everyone unhappy.
We need to fix the system, not give kids pills.
I don't think this can even be argued against at this point. A truckload of societies in the west would be facing absolute collapse right now if it wasn't for immigration.
In a version of reality in which we can't afford to just import as much cheap labour as we want, a good part of western culture would be facing extreme turmoil and our hegemony would most probably end. Hell we are pretty much assuming China will explode from inner conflict at some point because otherwise that hegemony is lost either way.
Was it only daughters that attempted suicide? What about sons?
With this language, you are implying the life of a woman is worth more than a man's. Why?
The distiction between sons and daughters is interesting though, because women are statistically much more likely to attempt suicide, whereas men are more likely to succeed at it.
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."
"Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: you've been breaking the site guidelines a ton lately. That's not cool, and will eventually get your account banned. If you'd please review the guidelines and stick to them when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
I'm not sure putting chemicals in one kid's brain (especially since brains are not fully formed till 25) is a very good idea
> There was a 22.3 percent spike in ER trips for potential suicides by children aged 12 to 17 in summer 2020 compared to 2019.
> The data was particularly alarming among among girls aged 12 to 17. Between Feb. 21 and March 20 this year, emergency department visits for potential suicide attempts were up 50.6 percent compared to the same period in 2019, data showed.
1. https://about.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Instagram-Te...
When i read about the study my biggest surprise was how poorly it was. A poll with 40 people is so pointless that I don't understand why they didn't hire professionals to do a real survey.
It does not matter what are reasons for disparity. But, the boys were more likely to continue some unchanged socialization ad they had before. They already had established groups to play with and so on.
2.) It is not socialization with active voice chat. That is more like writing letter or something like that. It will do less to make your brain feel like you have social connection.
The thing that is supposed to make difference (according to psychologist that had talk about social isolation) is talking. People who call have similar psychological results as those heavily socialized. if you write mails a lot, you reassemble lonely people more.
I promise you kids have been forming groups and have had feelings of exclusion that existed well before online games. The root cause here wouldn’t be online games in of themselves.
And for the record, I do strongly dislike gaming, surrounding culture and how gamers act when they play more then a little. It just was not my topic now, topic was suicides in covid.
We panicked everyone instead of having a level-headed policy where we stratified risk by age and health condition.
Special times could have been reserved to allow the elderly/unhealthy/fearful to go shop and take care of themselves. (Costco senior hours?) There are a lot of options.
Yeah, and then they had 2 years to rethink it
We're in the third year of a global pandemic and nothing that is happening now is something that wasn't predicted as a serious possibility.
Pretending everything is fine doesn't make it fine. Acknowledging the situation we're in, and having plan for "rapidly spreading variant that starts impacting kids more" is something that would be an obvious thing for schools to do.
We concretely knew in November this was coming. Again, many people tried to pretend this wasn't happening and brush it off, but there was plenty of time to foresee this situation and plan for it.
The vast majority of people, on all sides of the political spectrum, have aggressively been trying not to see what is happening in front of their eyes. To try to force things to be "normal". If we accepted that we're in a pandemic, and that sometimes we'll have to change our life a bit, we could have easily prepared for this case.
There was a lot of strong pivots in education. It's just that all (most?) of them were bad ideas.
My point is, you can still innovate and adapt while finding 1000 wrong ways to do something
I promise you, it is not the companies who are failing to deliver innovative in education
They cannot survive the way schools decide how to buy software - I.e. district level admins are the only ones with decision making power.
It seems like there are tons of them with tons of money managed at the single-school level of scale. Do they just have better software than the public schools? Are they not enough to support edtech companies growing to the size where they can compete for the government contracts? Something else?
Are our kids not beautiful snowflakes on the spectrum of intelligence or is it just gender?
People continuously forget about (or maliciously omit) even a single step beyond someone's infection. One infected person can spread it to others. Even if the individual's risk may be low, soon, you start spreading it to people that are more at risk. Schools can thus become superspreader locations that put their parents and teachers and whatnot at risk. Whether or not everything we did with schools is right, not doing anything would've led to millions of more people dead.
> [...] our hysterical reaction to Covid, [...]
Everyone certainly did some wrong things and arguably are continuing to do so, but "hysterical" is not how I would put it. We were facing a [relatively] unknown virus with poorly-understood effects to this day. We still can't predict who will be affected how by it.
I think this rhetoric is dangerous and some points of it are [to me] blindingly obviously wrong.
> it's not a stretch to say that the damage done by the policies is often worse than the disease.
I wouldn't be willing to quantify it as "often", but I would definitely agree that "sometimes" it can be worse.
1. Children don't exist in a vacuum. Even if they don't become symptomatic, they can still be a carrier and they can still infect adults that they're in contact with. Should teachers be sacrificing themselves? Should families isolate their children within the house?
2. It's a low risk to healthy children. What do you do for children with other health complications? America has a lot of diabetic children. Covid is also shown to increase the risk of pre-diabetic children becoming diabetic https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-substan...
3. Covid is not a one and done. You get it, and it can have long term lasting effects even if it doesn't kill you. That applies to children as well.
4. Covid spreads very quickly with a relatively high risk to the greater population. Lockdowns were a safety measure at the very least to be able to keep pace with things. It was absolutely the right thing to do till the virus was more understood.
5. As the virus was more understood, it reinforced the above points because covid has very complex side effects
2. It's low risk to almost ALL children. The hospitalization rates of children have been around 1 per 1 million at peak infection periods. This is no worse than other diseases and doesn't prompt a special response.
3. Please present evidence of long term effect in a non-negligible percentage of children
4. We still don't understand the flu virus.
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/covid-19-can-trigger-s...
This is in addition to worse damage that occurs throughout the body to any ACE2 cell, which are found in the brain along with the entire cardiovascular system and every other major organ in the body.
Hospitalizations in children are rising this year because last year they were out of school and NPI safety was much higher than 2021.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-omicron-variant...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/number-babies-toddlers...
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-warning-sym...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-children-us-covid-hospit...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/07/210716112443.h...
https://twitter.com/rafalab/status/1477302949604995075
https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1476253591677587456
https://mobile.twitter.com/jneill/status/1479066859270025219
117,000 children now living with long Covid +40,000 more than October
20,000 children for longer than a year +6,000 more than October
Children crossing 12,000 children have their "activity limited a lot" +4,000 more than October
There may be ACE2 receptors in the brain but what has never been found in the brain so far is SARS-CoV-2. The spike protein crosses the blood brain barrier in mice, but you also get plenty of that from the vaccines which doesn't seem to concern anyone at all.
With Covid. Not because of Covid. Most children at hospitals with Covid are incidental cases.
Also the long covid figure from children comes from self report. Given the hysteria in some children and some parents I would take this measure with a huge grain of salt.
Protip: don't use emotional Twitter post as your main source of information.
You clearly did not read the report that has proven autoantibodies were detected from mild covid cases associated with long covid symptoms.
How do you explain the rise in children’s hospitalizations in areas with high covid rates?
"A five-fold increase in pediatric admissions in New York City this month. Close to double the numbers admitted in Washington, DC. And nationwide, on average, pediatric hospitalizations are up 48% in just the past week."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-omicron-variant...
"An average of 672 children were being hospitalized every day in the US, as of 2 January - more than double the average just a week before. And the rate is rapidly increasing."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/covid-hospit...
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/the-real-...
https://nypost.com/2021/12/25/new-york-dept-of-health-warns-...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/08/26/child-c...
And? Just because someone has those antibodies doesn't mean he has long-covid.
> How do you explain the rise in children’s hospitalizations in areas with high covid rates?
>"A five-fold increase in pediatric admissions in New York City this month. Close to double the numbers admitted in Washington, DC. And nationwide, on average, pediatric hospitalizations are up 48% in just the past week." https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-omicron-variant...
Nothing in the article says because of Covid. And it is very easy to explain in fact. Hospitalizations always surge during holidays. Most notably due to falls and other respiratory viruses such as the flu which is known to be worse in children than covid.
Even so the article cites this data (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admis...) and says: "US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data released Tuesday showed that on average, 305 children have been in the hospital with Covid-19 on any given day over the week that ended Dec. 26.".
That 305 children in all the US.
The other articles you cited use the same deceptive framing.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
This may come as a surprise to you but contagious respiratory diseases can be prevented.
N95 masks and clean air are known actionable cost effective solutions.
https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/wiss-cheese-model...
You also don't address how children can be carriers even if covid doesn't affect them directly. Child vaccines only recently became available, which reduces the infection possibility and therefore the ability to pass it on. By that time , omicron was a thing and has mutated enough that the vaccines aren't as effective to curtail spread.
The flu is significantly less spreadable/fatal than covid. People bringing this comparison up in 2022 are either wilfully ignorant or disingenuous.
Studies on long term risk to children have just started (1) so numbers are unavailable, but covid has already shown to have long term effects in some children as per my link in the other post
1. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/long-term-stud...
All these anti lockdown comments tend to be the same, ignoring network effect and falsely trivializing the risk factor. Comparing to the flu is just ridiculous, and has been debunked over and over and over.
You are too easy to dismiss here. I wasn't comparing severity, but rather out understanding of the flu. Please re-read. Nevertheless, tens of thousands have died every year from the flu. Many more who do not die get post-viral syndromes. The symptoms change every year, sometimes with full body rashes, or severe congestion that lasts weeks. Sometimes it mutates into something deadly, like the last pandemic. The vaccines we've created are hardly effective. To pretend we understand the flu is to be willfully ignorant or disingenuous.
What do we do if their parents end up unable to work due to long term COVID or worse their parents die? https://data.cdc.gov/widgets/9bhg-hcku?mobile_redirect=true 30-64yo are a significant percentage of total deaths. 30-55 is probably a reasonable age range for parents with dependent children.
>3. Please present evidence of long term effect in a non-negligible percentage of children
You realise we are still going through the pandemic right? There is no long term data either way anywhere because we have to live through it first.
Indeed. Parents should also be vaccinated. It would be reasonable to delay school until that point. (This is an additional delay over those previously mentioned in parent comments in this thread.)
However, we should also expect that all parents will be exposed to the virus sooner or later, as we have been told from the earliest days of the pandemic, and thus we should limit further delay.
Yes, parents will get COVID from kids who go to school. Yes, unfortunately, there will be children orphaned as a result of that exposure. No, there won't be substantial numbers of net orphans -- certainly not such that crippling public education for years or even decades is the more humane response.
Also what number of orphans is acceptable? 30% of the US won't vaccinate. Delta has a mortality rate of 3+%(1) by the most charitable takes. Rough math would show that could add somewhere under 1 million orphans to the system.
Do we also ignore medical costs for those who get sick? What about the hospital resources those people take up?
Again, there's just so much more than "just the children"
1. I'm estimating 3% for Delta by taking the NHS estimate of 1.9% CFR for Alpha and the subsequent estimates that Delta had around double the risk of fatality.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
EDIT: HN won't let me reply to the comment below me until the cool down period. They say my argument is not in good faith, which is an odd assertion to make. Their comment assumes a higher case count than reported, which while likely, is not an assumption I'm making because it's hard to discern whether there is also therefore uncounted mortality.
What's your reference for that?
> 3. Please present evidence of long term effect in a non-negligible percentage of children
> There is no long term data either way anywhere because we have to live through it first.
If we don’t have long term data one way or the other, why is the starting assumption that children will experience long Covid to the same extent and same severity as adults (especially given that they have much lower rates of getting a serious case of covid compared to adults)?
And again, children don't exist in a vacuum and can therefore cause long term issues in adults.
This is about being cautious based on what we do know. And we do know it's a crippling societal risk that children are such a huge vector.
What will my mother's friend's family do after their father, husband and sole provider died within 10 minutes of taking the vaccine, right there on the spot, on the vaccine queue? (Answer: the family almost got evicted by the way. And lived in poverty for 7-8 months before recovering.)
Where do we draw the line, I ask?
Someone having the vaccine also doesn't increase the risk of someone else dying. It's pretty simple.
This is a non-sequitur. I ask the reverse: how do I help society by vaccinating? Judging by the contemporary info out there -- I don't in any way or form. I don't reduce the spread and I won't reduce my symptoms because I got through it 3 times without realizing and only the first time was bad (and it was before the news of the pandemic even started so I couldn't have known; and there were no vaccines back then so I had no choice).
Your reply is not helpful.
> Simple statistics show that the risk of dying by taking the vaccine is significantly lower than the risk of dying from covid.
So it's okay if people die of taking the vaccine but it's not okay if they die of Covid? Got it, thanks.
"Smaller percent" is a very inhumane way of looking at it. You're counting lives as if they are rice grains. You should be ashamed of yourself. People still die, regardless of percents.
It's IMO understandable that many elders in my country decide against the vaccine because in many of them it evokes a severe immune response that carries an actual risk of death on the same day. Do you just write them off with "they are a smaller percent than Covid deaths"? How humane of you.
Your response is shockingly insensitive.
Vaccination helps reduce the risk of you catching the virus, spreading the virus, reduces the risk of hospitalization, reduces the risk of you taking medical resources from someone else.
The risk of a "severe immune response that will cause death" is statistically MUCH lower than the risk of catching and dying from covid.
Not accommodating your sealioning is the humane response.
You should tone down the conspiracy theorist act and look for actual human beings with worries and a lot to lose because, you know, that's exactly what's going on.
Think what you will though.
The US is sitting on 860K deaths from 60m cases. A bit over 1%. Vaccine related deaths are about 6k2 in 187m people. Or 0.0018%.
It's only no help if you consider reducing deaths by orders of magnitude and freeing up resources for the more needy "nothing".
You also need to stop thinking about individuals when talking about public health policies. It sucks but at population levels you're talking about millions of faceless individuals.
Edit: I should really have tried to find deaths in fully vaccinated individuals vs unvaccinated. E.g https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
Within the vaccine-eligible population of Scotland aged 65–79 years, the death rate per 10 000 person-years was 64·8 for unvaccinated individuals and 4·2 for fully vaccinated individuals. This difference in death rate was most marked in the population older than 80 years (14·0 deaths per 10 000 person-years for fully vaccinated vs 420·1 deaths per 10 000 person-years for unvaccinated individuals older than 80 years) but attenuated in individuals aged 18–64 years (0·8 deaths per 10 000 person-years for fully vaccinated vs 3·1 deaths per 10 000 person-years for unvaccinated individuals aged 18–64 years). For fully vaccinated individuals who subsequently tested positive, there was a median of 8·0 days (IQR 5–13) between a positive test and dying of COVID-19.
So why should I do it? I will not help anybody (and no I won't hog an ICU bed).
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
That's why after receiving the vaccine you are supposed to wait 15 minutes so a medical professional can observe you for symptoms.
Not sure what happened in this case, but if it did happen it's likely someone botched the anaphylaxis response.
Isn't this largely what happened in the US? Vaccines started to become available in early 2021, but generally only to health care workers and the most vulnerable. It wasn't until around April that they were available to most adults, with the mRNA being by far the most available. If you jumped in as soon as they opened up general availability it would be early to mid May before you were considered fully vaccinated (Two weeks after second shot).
That's near the end of the 2020-2021 school year.
And remember, that's for people who got vaccinated soon after general availability. In a lot of areas demand was outstripping supply, so it could take a couple weeks or more to actually get an appointment.
By the start of the 2021-2022 school year, everyone that wanted to get vaccinated could easily get it for no cost and very little effort, so in-person school has been very widely offered.
I want to directly address this one - I think the answer is yes. I still get in the engine and answer 911 calls. My wife still goes to the hospital and attends patients. Why shouldn't teachers go to work?
Sure, some teachers are old and/or have health issues, and even with vaccination might be at unreasonable risk. Those people need to do something else (sure, with a lot of social support) and let people who are willing and able to do the job take over. The purpose of the educational system is not to coddle teachers.
The virus is endemic. Whatever happened to "keep calm and carry on"? My grandparents experienced far worse than a virus with a sub-1% fatality rate (and a tiny fraction of that with a couple jabs), and they still sent their kids to school. Let's just accept the danger and move on.
I will never forget how the union in my district fought us at every step as we tried to restore normalcy in our children's lives.
Teachers can teach with remote learning. Maybe it's not as good, but it's doable. You can't stop a fire remotely.
We really need to reevaluate society by making work safer and making sure people are paid better.
If teachers think the pay isn't worth the risk, retire and let others take over. We don't need to re-evaluate society, we need people to man up and do their jobs. What are you waiting for? We have very effective vaccines. The virus may wax and wane but it is never going away.
Thankfully my kiddo is too young to be impacted by this, but all my friends with grade schoolers tell me that remote learning is a farce. So I don't think that's the answer.
Remote learning doesn't work for most children, especially the youngest ones and those with bad home environments. The laptop class seems to intentionally ignore that reality.
I'll never forget a passing encounter I had in March 2020 as things were starting to shut down in my area. I was at Lowe's (big box hardware store) and hadn't bought or even worn my first mask yet but knew the CDC was recommending social distance when I literally bumped into an elderly woman in a narrow aisle of the store. I apologized and commented how I didn't hear her come up behind me. Then I apologized again and said I'd step away as I hadn't got a mask yet (she hadn't either but I was being polite as she was obviously elderly/high risk). We chatted for a moment about everything that was going on in the community regarding closures/lockdowns. That's when she said, "this is all non-sense, when I grew up Polio was going around and we still went to school, the world has to keep moving on and life is not meant to be risk free".
I have thought about that conversation a lot as time has passed and while unpopular, I believe we over-reacted even given what we knew at the time. It was always going to take a toll but we made it quite a bit more expensive in many ways. Instead of ripping the bandaid off, we'll be pulling it away for quite some time and our kids will be impacted for their entire lives to varying degrees. I have a now 3 year old and in talking with PreK/PK3/PK4 teachers they are already seeing a drastic social/emotional shift of incoming children from the norm. I've heard accounts that slightly older kids have PTSD symptoms from the fear they experienced.
I have families in western Canada and except early Spring and summer of 2020, schools remained open and are still open. They didn’t have much different outcome if not better than us in US.
I live in Canada so am quite aware. If we're talking about comparisons then let's not cherry pick ones without considering the whole context.
Schools have been open for the most part in Ontario and Alberta since Fall 2020.
> Canada has way lower vaccine hesitancy.
New York City has 82.5% of population vaccinated, about as much as Ontario [1]. Yet schools were closed for most parents throughout the pandemic.
> On average Canadians have fewer comorbidities.
Where the hell are you getting this from? Health Canada numbers say 64% adults are overweight or obese [2].
[1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.p...
[2] https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications...
Ontario also had outbreaks that aligned with the removal of lockdown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Ontario?w...)
> In early September 2020, the province showed a significant increase in new cases, beginning the second wave of the pandemic.
> From late November to mid-December 2020, the province began placing regions in rolling lockdowns, culminating in a province-wide shutdown beginning Boxing Day
So I'm not sure your use of Ontario is the greatest.
Makes you wonder about deaths counts too?
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
No saying people aren’t dying of Covid, just wondering how accurate the numbers are? And is Covid as the cause correctly attributed?
Don't you understand where all of the animosity from so many people comes from? It comes out of disdain for people like you, who suggest that other opinions and interpretations of statistics are wrongthink and that wrongthink must be punished.
It's a clear attempt at misinformation and should not be tolerated.
These people went to the hospital and were admitted for X. X being any number of medical conditions requiring hospitalization. You can be admitted for the reason “person is sick”, you need some diagnosis or complaint, however vague
They later tested positive for Covid.
How is that misinformation?
If people come to the hospital with complaints of fever or breathing difficulties, they can do a covid test prior to admission to determine if they are positive.
I’d say it’s misinformation to claim those people were hospitalized because of covid, which is what the original reporting suggested.
No they don't. Admission is done immediately. No doctor is going to wait for a test result before admitting a patient suffering respiratory problems.
Are you really that shocked that people are being hospitalized for reasons other than Covid? I mean, do you think people who have Covid and another problem just don’t go to the hospital?
That’s my point. They are hospitalized (had a condition that required admission), but not because of Covid.
The number I’m quoting is “% Admitted where COVID was not included as one of the reasons for admission”.
I’m not paraphrasing here, but simiplying repeating what the NY state Governor is saying? Still disinformation?
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-updates-new...
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Would be better to compare excess deaths per capita (instead of reported COVID deaths)
Also you're comparing apple to oranges. Contrary to most Western countries, New-Zealand focused on sealing their country away, meaning they didn't have to have harsh lock downs for a long time.
I get your point, but do the children also teach the classes, clean the schools, drive the buses, etc? To frame it as a "hysterical reaction to Covid" is either ignorant or intentionally misrepresentation. I also don't know how you can blame society in one sentence, then condemn specific individuals to historical infamy in the next.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29860006.
[0] https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/cherchez_la_femme#%C3%89tymol...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherchez_la_femme#Origin_of_th...
[2] https://www.20minutes.fr/politique/1705183-20151008-anne-gra...
I recall one adult in my entire childhood that laughed off a doom and gloom discussion and one other that said "relax you'll be fine". It immediately paused my chronic anxiety as calm is contagious.
The world is in a state of decline, climate change being just one of many stressors on society. Pretending this is not the case doesn't make it go away, and if anything the media is aggressively downplaying the current situation we are in.
Anxiety and despair don't have to be the only reactions to decline, but we certainly won't get past those as long as people keep pretending everything is fine.
Apocalyptic rhtoric is both wrong and a mind virus that cripples meaningful policy discussions.
I have my problems with Steven Pinker but this is one issue where he is so correct on it's not even funny.
I think that, increasingly, people disagree with this, but it is still a minority opinion.
You've got your causal arrows backwards. Technological progress is fueled by environmental destruction and our use of fossil fuels. I recommend Smil's Energy and Civilization as a relatively neural view on the relationship between our energy usage and civilizational progress.
I understand where the mass denial comes from, recognizing the current state of collapse we are in uproot many of the essential structure of meaning we use to survive so our minds won't trivially let us see them.
Still it is ultimately healthier for everyone to come to grips with this rather than struggle through more and more aggressive and cognitively dissonant forms of denial.
I have on occasion reminded my daughter that the world she’ll grow up in will not be as abundantly beautiful as it is today. Just as it isn’t for me compared to when I was younger.
I’ve also, at those times, reminded her that she has the power and responsibility to be a good steward of the world because nothing is writ in stone.
Just reminding you that cautionary tales aren’t always simply doom and gloom. As an adult who grew up with parents who were dismissive of the worlds problems, I felt sheltered and out of touch when I finally learned about some of the problems we would be facing as humans on this planet.
I have no desire to set up my kids like that. People like my parents took our world and shit on it for all of the generations that follow. They felt it was more important to be positive than face consequences. If we have another boomer generation, we _are_ goners.
You have to know you're almost certainly wrong though? The world has been marching forward and forward every year to assume this next "catastrophe" is the one we can't solve is honestly ridiculous.
Also the PP had examples where the counter example is simply demonstrated. That's what parents should do instead of repeating them with implied certainty. Of most concern, I can't recall a single doom story from my childhood that came true or that I could work on by the time I was an adult(e.g., we'll be out of oil in 25 years, the Russians will drop a bomb on us any day now, the Japanese will own the US soon, world population growth will lead to world wide famine, collapse of the USD, Social Security will end in 10 years, etc.). My childhood years (and possibly most of my life) were lost to depression, negative rumination, anxiety, and hopelessness. It was only until I limited interaction with doom-sayers that I finally have a clear, calm, and focused mind and that is a prerequisite for solving meaningful problems.
Using methods unlikely to work and with the added safety of having people in the house all the time I could imagine that many of the new attempts were not intended to succeed
It is possible that these attempts are more about distress than true attempts to end life. Still a problem, but not as much if the suicide rates did not also go up.
1: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-m...
I suspect though that we'd see there's not much increase or change at all for suicides in countries that handled the pandemic better than the US. People want to blame lockdowns, remote schooling or specific actions in the US when in reality the incredibly horrific response and deaths of nearly a million Americans is horrifying enough on its own.
Also, China data probably isn’t trustworthy on a topic like this, right?
If all you know is being told what to do for generations it won't feel the same.
I'm pretty sure that once we sum this up, the interventions will be proven to have caused WAY more damage than any virus ever could.
Kids need social interaction. I know multiple kids who have basically been checked out of society and told they’ll kill their family if they socialize.
Lockdowns and covid hysteria have certainly contributed to this.
[1] https://i.imgur.com/SnwqNsd.png
[2] https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/china
[3] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/4/17/chinas-wuhan-revise...
This partisan left-wing reaction to this news, which is implicitly about absolving the massive violation of the entire population's civil and economic liberties of blame for the socioeconomic and non-COVID health deteriorations seen during the COVID era, is the real problem.
Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain so it stops being worried about things that legitimately and truly torment it. It reduces your sensitivity, it knocks off your normal brain chemicals balance, and it turns you into a robot. I've had a family member go through this a long time ago. It was soul-crushing watching them when I visited. They were almost turned to vegetables with chemical means.
Doing all this does NOT solve the underlying problems that make people reach for suicide. Those problems are societal and very deeply ingrained at this point.
We must look for the reasons that younger people start attempting suicides more than before and try and cure the illness, not the symptoms.
I even started finding it offensive when I see people offering medication. It comes across as: "Here ya go champ, let's again deceive your brain that everything's alright when it really isn't, now off ya go and be a good worker bee, and oh by the way that'll be $2000 for the 10 minutes session". Could it be that we just treat people worse and worse with time? I say yes, yes we do.
But judging by a lot of other replies in this thread, I'd venture to say that many people are not ready to hear it, sadly, and are still in denial, and will shout anybody thinking otherwise away from their platforms (whichever they might be, virtual or in the meat space). And until that changes, the problem will only deepen.
So there, one anecdote vs. another.
I do agree with the general sentiment, though that has to do with the rulers of this world (not politicians).
And yep, my beef with psychiatric chemical help is exactly that: I want to see more will to repair the system and not treat more and more patients.
I too saw people taking pills and becoming "robots" in the methaphoric sense. They were dull and not themselves, "just" without suicidal tendencies. It was absolutely devastating to live under a roof with them.
When I got a major depression, a decade back, I decided that I will not take any meds, because I'd rather die the person I was, than live on as an empty shell.
Did that mean I didn't get help? Hell no!
No, you didn’t. That sort of effect does happen with antipsychotics. The effects of antidepressants are as different from those as Aspirin.
A small hint: never tell anyone what they experienced, unless you were there or you're a godlike creature.
Edit: I asked again which pills, it was anti depressants. It was half a lifetime ago, doesn't change my or their experience.
There's two major tests for the efficacy of depression-treating drugs that I am aware of. One is a "willpower" test, which in one incarnation is attempting to drown a mouse. A compound more likely to be efficacious in humans if it makes a mouse attempt to swim longer before ultimately succumbing to exhaustion. Taken by itself this test seems promising, though one could argue it might blunt whatever mechanism makes you give up and try a different approach.
The second is a bit worse, and done in humans. A compound more likely to be efficacious in humans at treating depression also seems to be effective at disrupting short and long term memory. So, they give the sample and a short term memory test and see how you do. If you do worse it is likely to treat depression.
You will see, if you go back through past threads, people stating that their ADHD diagnosis was comorbid with or developed after a diagnosis of depression. It is extremely likely that they developed focus problems due to being treated with SSRIs.
You can look it up in any of the drug labels.
A 4-week study of inpatients meeting DSM-III-R criteria for MDD with melancholia utilizing Effexor in a range of 150 to 375 mg per day (divided in a three-times-a-day schedule) demonstrated superiority of Effexor over placebo based on the HAM-D-21 total score. The mean dose in completers was 350 mg per day (study 3).
https://labeling.pfizer.com/showlabeling.aspx?id=100#section...
The issue today, is that people are expected to be productive all the time despite the isolation, low wages, lack of ownership, purpose, meaning and the raising inequality. And it is often those who are perceptive enough that tend to suffer more. If you don't want medications, then people need to have enough safety net to be unproductive for at least 3 to 6 months with some basic care, and this is luxury few people have.
And I agree with your second paragraph completely. I am sick of society pretending that people are "sick". They are not. They are responding naturally to an increasingly hostile world.
It will help if you read more slowly and if you don't get outraged during the process. Then you'll see that not one thing you said was something that I claimed. I never said not even one of the things you claim that I did.
A bit of a puzzling comment you posted, man.
Another hint: those thousands of professionals have a perverse monetary incentive. Food for thought. Some do good; I've met a few. Many others simply look annoyed and just hand you a prescription. We should do something about the latter.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
They are effective though.
The "thousands of professionals and the decades of research devoted to the topic" were mislead by pharma companies propagating the erroneous idea that depression and other problems are just chemical imbalances in the brain that are to be fixed with medication and that's that. So you can hardly blame them.
We've had to ask you about this many times:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28981889 (Oct 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28952194 (Oct 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27648887 (June 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27052513 (May 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14405337 (May 2017)
That's not cool, and will eventually get you banned. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and eliminate this pattern, we'd appreciate it.
Psychiatrist and family member tend to fear relapses, and typically the effort required to enhance the situation is tremendous, and some situations are simply not fixable, they need to be accepted, time need to pass for healing, and attention need to be shifted elsewhere. The person would certainly lose some confidence in their own ability to withstand future pressures and tend to fear relapses as well, and yes there are financial incentives to sell pills and pitch as an easy fix. Thus, there is a risk of being dependant on the pills.
However, a good treatment plan is a mix of medicine and some form of talk/behavioural therapy. The medicine is designed to be temporary but might be necessary fix (unless there is a real hardware issue which I think is a rarity), and is usually combined with CTB and other form of talk/behavioural therapy aiming to strengthen healthy coping skills, eliminate damaging thoughts, change perception and take some actions. Do some people need medicine for lifetime? I don't know personally, but I've a feeling it is being overprescribed and it might cause more harm than good if taking for a long time. I mean, who knows what it does to the brain reward system if used long-term? I don't think it is well understood.
Ideally, people are given the time/care to heal on their own, around 3 to 6 months at least for severe depression and usually the person emerges at the other end have different perspective/interests in life. But the problem is the economical system is setup for constant productivity and 6 months of downtime for many of us is simply not an option.
Christ, people. You aren't necessary everywhere with your "actually" stuff. Chill.
I'm sharing what I observe and what I find disturbing. You can just ignore it.
“at all help with anything” sounds pretty absolute to my ears, as does the wording in basically every other sentence in what you said, but I’m glad to be mistaken. Though I note the person you responded to barely mentioned medication, and you seemed to find it necessary to denounce it in the strongest terms in a reply…
> * Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain...*
Notice the word "often". I'm not a 10-year old that claims that the 4-5 cases that I've witnessed represent the entire world and I'm getting tired of everybody here pretending that I'm some kind of monster.
Or maybe you're projecting too much?
Get off my back already. Read more slowly, don't get outraged, don't assume malice. Does wonders both to mental health and to the quality of online discussions.
Unfortunately I have had multiple family members recently deal with crippling and harmful bouts of depression and extreme anxiety.
They tried many things, but ultimately it was medication (not to remove the feelings, but just to help manage them) and long term counselling that helped things get better.
The medication alone is not going to help. But when someone can’t even get out of bed, or ,eave the house, or is so sad that everything becomes a dark fog, I disagree that medication is not required.
I’m now extremely grateful that I am in a position where I am able to afford it.
I have blood pressure issues. I try to eat right, and exercise. I have my whole life. I practice meditation and slowing down and generally feel fairly stress free as well.
I do this to address the “root” cause as you would put it. Unfortunately in this area I also need a little help from modern science, so I’m glad I have access to it.
I know of several cases where symptoms lasted for years. I know too many people who have had many different symptoms simultaneously while coming off of e.g. Effexor (with or without tapering dosage), ranging from flu-like symptoms for up to a whole year (meanwhile people moan about having 1-2 days of flu-like symptoms after getting vaccinated), horrible nightmares, cramps, headache, nausea, dizziness, worse depression than before, lethargy, insomnia, and the list goes on.
With "any other type of medication" you generally don't have to deal with withdrawal symptoms, so it's a bit unfair to compare them like that, although I agree to some extent that for some people, they are better than not being able to get out of bed, especially for people who can't afford to get alternative types of help, but people on anti-depressants are never like themselves before they started taking them.
And to add, they are IMHO not addressing the root cause of anything. People become 100% dependent on anti-depressants and after 1-2 days of stopping begin to experience withdrawal symptoms of varying intensity. Granted every person is different and will take different anti-depressants with varying dosages which will have varying impact on their psychological health. Sorry if this appears like a rant, I'm also glad for the existence of such medications but I think they are just handed out like candy without any consideration.
And you... are only seeing what you want and need to argue with someone. I'm not your enemy here, get off my back already.
> Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain so it stops being worried about things that legitimately and truly torment it. It reduces your sensitivity, it knocks off your normal brain chemicals balance, and it turns you into a robot. I've had a family member go through this a long time ago. It was soul-crushing watching them when I visited. They were almost turned to vegetables with chemical means.
See, the problem with acting like you were trying to be reasonable and you "didn't mean it like that" is that I can go back to your post quote what you said.
I didn't "misunderstand" and I did not "only see what I want."
I am not going to accept your attempt to backpedal.
You said what I pasted above. I thought it was an ignorant thing to say. I responded.
> I'm not your enemy here
You absolutely are. I care about what is TRUE. You lie and say ignorant things that conveniently align with your values and try to pass them off as wisdom.
> get off my back already.
I will leave you alone after this final response.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: we've been having to ask you not to do this kind of thing for many years:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29220499 (Nov 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25615528 (Jan 2021)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23384415 (June 2020)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22480861 (March 2020)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18761110 (Dec 2018)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11885616 (June 2016)
If you keep doing it, we're going to end up having to ban you, so please stop doing it.
I got under attack, my comments have been misrepresented, and I'm defending myself. Admittedly not in a timid manner. But that tends to happen when you put people on the defensive by constantly almost copy-pasting the same criticisms.
What would you do?
You linked 6 instances of fairly minor transgressions (at least in my mind; tons of people mention downvotes and are NEVER warned; a lot troll openly, get heavily flagged, and weeks later I still don't see them warned).
This thread here is the first and biggest example and it's the first (and last) where I'd agree with you that I crossed the line.
Your comment is fairly saddening to me and feels like targeting, and/or as an effort to enforce an echo chamber. I am very sure that is not your intention so I invite you to write to me on my email so we can settle this properly with more and better nuanced discussion.
I stand by my conviction that I got misrepresented and got attacked by a lot of people who freely interpreted a comment not made in bad faith, while clearly demonstrating lack of benefit of the doubt themselves. Have they been warned like I am here?
And I'm the bad guy for having none of their attacks?
Ouch. There's something not cool.
Again, feel free to email me and maybe you'll see I'm not some sort of a villain spreading hate on HN. Unpopular opinions shouldn't go under a relentless fire.
If not, keeping quiet on HN is the easiest thing for me to do. I'll prefer it because I don't want to lose my account. But, for the last time, you're making a mistake and are likely misunderstanding me due to cultural differences. Please, do consider that.
This is how threads end up in a downward spiral [1], with each person perpetuating the flamewar while feeling like they're in the right and it's the other ones behaving badly. But flamewar comments like these ones you posted are just not ok on HN:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29863713
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29863283
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29863274
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861393
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861220
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861112
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861092
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861088
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861062
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861036
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29860983
If you review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, surely it isn't hard to see that such comments are the opposite of what we want on HN.
As for other users breaking the site guidelines, if you look elsewhere in the thread you'll see that I scolded a bunch of them just as much—for example:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29868575
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29868531
It always feels like the mods are against you [2] and that you're being singled out while others are let off lightly or ignored. That's not so. It just feels that way, similar to how it always feel like you're the one the cops pull over for speeding tickets or the refs are always making calls against the home team.
What is true is that there are lots of comments breaking the site guidelines that don't get moderated, but that's not because we're treating them specially—it's because we don't see them all. We can't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here [3]. There's far too much.
Btw, it's better from my perspective to have these discussions in public because then there's a chance that others can see and learn from them. A 1-to-1 email conversation has far less leverage and the number of demands for moderator attention vastly exceeds the limited supply, which is why my worst-case latency in replying to emails is unfortunately so terrible.
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=downward%20spiral%20by:dang&...
While I can't say with clear conscience that I agree 100%, I do agree with your general observations and would put my agreement percentage at, say, 80%.
This situation also gave me a good opportunity to reflect and understand that there's no point in stressing myself in HN so I will definitely stay away from such loaded topics for a long time.
I should have been here only for the technology news anyway so I'll stick to those. I will both protect my mental health and not dilute HN in one stroke.
Thank you for following up, it's much appreciated.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861114
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861105
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861021
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29861000
We ban accounts that do this. I'm not going to ban you right now, because I didn't see it elsewhere in your recent comments (other than https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29755850, which was also unduly personal). But please review the site guidelines and make sure never to post like this to HN, so we don't have to ban you in the future.
Regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are, it's not ok to poison the ecosystem this way. Perhaps you don't feel you owe better to people who you feel are wrong, but you definitely owe this community better if you're participating in it.
Consider that we know that mentioning suicide in the news increases the number of suicides. There is therefore a minor Info Hazard to mention suicides without the correct help structure in place.
You are by that original comment implying that medication is ineffective or a crutch. There are multiple other comments saying that comments similar to yours have let them believe that they should do without medication. So you are therefore doing almost the same thing yourself.
Crutches aid in healing, just as medication does for depression. And we should try to keep Info Hazards visible only in professional circles.
It's a risk. I'm not stigmatizing people for needing help and never will.
I can accept that my original comment came off a little bit more extremist than I intended but it's IMO also true that you all are projecting a little bit too much, and made me look like a monster who tell legitimately struggling people to suck it off.
I don't accept this. I didn't even imply it.
You really have to write that out, or people are right to prepare for the risk that you meant exactly what you wrote.
I'm amazed I even have to point that out.
Yes, it can. But if the underlying issue is that society and social structures are fucked up, and that's what's making people depressed, then a proper cure has to involve fixing society.
Where did I say that society is perfect, and that the only thing making people depressed is chemical imbalance?
I agree that our current society can be stressful, and that environmental factors[0] also affect people's behavior.
I agree that we can improve society through collective action, and hopefully that would lead to better quality of life for people, thus reducing the rate of youth suicide attempts.
However, I was addressing to OP's suggestion that medication will not "help at all with anything." Also that "Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain ... and it turns you into a robot."
So what are you defending here, exactly? Do you agree with OP? Is that why you are trying to attribute something to me I didn't say to make my argument seem absurd, instead of addressing my actual arguments?
0: Such as climate change, peak oil, the destruction of our natural ecosystem, the massive die-off of earth's biodiversity, and posturing from progressively more desperate super-powers
I suspect we would all be better off if we were kinder to each other and assumed the best rather than judges each other in this way.
Before the internet I doubt most people would be called ‘evil’ in their lives, now it’s almost punctuation.
This, among numerous other parts of your comment are in gross violation of HN rules, just for future reference
As someone with over 20 years of mental health issues who refused medication for exactly the same reasons - "sucking it up," trying to address root causes, meditation, spirituality, exercise...
... none of it worked. You could easily spend a lifetime trying to "root cause" the source of your malady and return empty handed, as I have. When the bills need to get paid, and your options are psychological collapse or some chemical attenuation of your mental state, I think the choice is clear.
I agree that it's sort of twisted that modern society is structured such that we need to constantly medicate ourselves to cope with day to day existence.
Alas.
Right there in the first line. "Any medication", "at all", and "with anything." Come on :)
Depression and ADHD are _extremely_ treatable through medication, just as examples. There are many studies around this topic, it is way more treatable than certain physical conditions.
"Knocks off your normal brain chemicals" have you considered that some people's normal brain chemicals are not set up normally? Would you claim someone who is anemic taking iron supplements should stop cuz they're messing with that?
Naturalistic arguments like this lead to many people having way too much skepticism for things that are easily treatable. It leads to people dying. You should be ashamed of spreading this kind of nonsense.
EDIT: ADHD medication, when the right medication is given, has like 70% success rate at treating symptoms, and there's like 30% of people who express not just having symptoms reach manageable level, but total removal of all symptoms for their cases!
Imagine if we had magical robot prosthetics indistinguishable from actual human limbs. That is what we have for certain mental illnesses, for some set of people.
I'm sympathetic to what you are saying that external factors are definitely at play (of course they are, in a sense. Mental illness characterised by social interaction will depend on factors of those social interactions). But you're dismissing internal factors!
For many mental illnesses, people are able to function on a day-to-day basis without treatment, but would feel better with proper treatment. And sometimes the cup overflows, and people suffer because of it. And people in the chorus of skepticism play into people not getting treatment.
But I can see that many misunderstood my intent, so likely my fault. All I was saying is that medication is over-represented.
That was all really.
I myself have been on CBD and it helped me. I know pills can be good temporary crutches. But IMO they are given away too quickly (anecdotal evidence) without much regard to what the person is actually going through.
I'm obviously aware that what I observed is not 100% of the cases. Really not sure what made so many jump on me claiming that I over-generalized. I didn't.
I'm on your side and on the side of many who are going through a rough patch, very much because half of my life was a rough patch. I'm all too aware. I was only saying that medication is a trigger-happy tactic (again in my statistically insignificant observations).
Generally agree with your comment but .... You're an adult. Decide what you need and take agency. The doc isn't forcing you to gobble pills and not do CBT.
The fact that they're available, and with low friction if it appears that you need them is great.
Here's a stupid analogy. To become a bodybuilder you need to lift heavy compound movements probably under a barbell over a long period of time. You have a scrawny kid come into your gym and he says he likes doing push-ups. Why not let him do pushups? Just because they're "too easy to access" and not the stack ranked force prioritized #1 option for hypertrophy?
In general were super prescriptive on what others should do, but most Americans don't exercise, etc.
More availability of a broader array of treatment modalities is a feature not a big IMHO.
Depression is pretty wide and not fully understood. You can't just take the meaning of life and reduce it to a scientific problem. Yet that's what most of these kids are struggling with.
It's hopeful that the field of psychiatry is also experimenting with psycobylin as that at least will allow for people to come to some meaning on their own, in a journey rather than being numbed out.
Also what does anti-scientific even mean in this context? You can run a well set up experiment that turns people into vegetables and drastically sees a drop in suicide. Is it therefore correct? Don't forget this field is only 40 years away from lobotomies.
If there's a 25% chance you're going to kill yourself in 90 days, medication helps.
If you have a milder case and/or a very long time horizon, completely agree doing "root cause" work throughout your preferred method makes sense.
But it's not fair to the people suffering to say "I know you're bed bound but how about some cardio? Nah you don't need medicine that just numbs it". Why can't they get a little help when they're in a desperate place? Starting medicine doesn't imply a death sentence where it's force fed down your throat every day for the rest of your life. Take it for 6 months and stop when everything is going better and you have some reps of [your preferred recovery technique] under your belt.
I didn't see anyone claiming to be "pro-science", and I also didn't see anyone claiming that medication "does nothing".
It looks like to me that you completely misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented the comment (I can't tell which one), and then got angry with the misrepresentation.
Another recent, worrying, trend (not unique to your comment) is that people don't see nuance and don't accept thoughts that don't match theirs. According to these people, you're either "pro-science" (and agree with them), or you are dangerous "anti-science" person spouting misinformation (how dare you see the world differently than me! Grrr).
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
Please understand that I am not anti-psychiatry at all. Your kid and their friends are best doing intensive therapy, and if necessary, sessions twice per week, outpatient. That is their best bet, health-wise. Because of taking Pristiq (desvenlafaxine) [SNRI] and Rexulti (brexpiprazole) for severe depression, I literally have suffered the worst thing imaginable, a drug side effect known as *akathisia*. In no exaggeration, it is worse than death. You have to move constantly, but it does not relieve the terror that you go through. You cannot physically relax at all. Your mind can only think haunting and terrorizing thoughts. It feels like you have been doused in gasoline, lit on fire, and you have been locked in a coffin. You literally survive moment-by-moment not to kill yourself. By the way, it is gruesomely painful from a perceptual standpoint. One time, when I was extremely sick, I went to the hospital and I had no idea whatsoever when I went to the emergency room that I was in sepsis along with diabetic ketoacidosis, due to being in the throes of akathisia. If you have it severely, it can cause violence and suicide. I had it severely and it lasted for about a year. I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological disease plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin-dependent). I have been through really terrible things in my life due to my health but akathisia by far takes the cake. It is in no exaggeration worse than death.
Watch this video, this is what it is like every single day you suffer with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_iiy8ISvdY
This is a public PSA about akathisia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvhAilA070
This is excerpts from Jordan Peterson (whom I do not agree with from a political standpoint) who is a psychologist who suffered from it due to benzodiazepines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIfllfH0k3I
My story has a lot of parallels to this story: https://www.madinamerica.com/2021/06/boy-interrupted-a-story...
> It's past time the West reckons with our mental health crisis. Why is it that we're the wealthiest nations in the world, yet our kids are more stressed and depressed than kids in third-world countries? I think society will only become more and more unstable until we spend time seriously addressing that question and adjust our culture accordingly.
Like what? Do what Russia (along with the entire USSR) along with former Yugoslavia did to political dissidents?
Did you know that they used to put political dissidents in 4-point restraints and inject them repeatedly with Haldol, in order to induce severe akathisia as a torture method? If you did not appear "crazy" before coming in to some place like the Serbsky Institute in Moscow, you would appear absolutely "crazy" afterwards whenever you came out of there.
Have a read: https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/soviet-psychiatric-dr...
Also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_...
And just FYI, this effectively happened to me in ...
As someone who’s long differed from anxiety and depression, I had your mindset at one point. It wasn’t until I started trying medication that I could start evaluating my life in a more objective manner, without the chemicals in my brain discoloring every thought. Now I don’t even need medication, but I am certainly a different person. Medication helped me choose a better life for myself.
You’re starting from a very specific worldview—the puritanical tradition where those upholding a certain set of virtues (industriousness, tolerance to pain, etc) will be richly rewarded (on earth or later) and, conversely, any suffering can be traced back to individual faults.
That mindset cannot survive contact with even trace amounts of actual data where, time and time again, medication does make a difference, although that difference remains frustratingly smaller than for other diseases. But it isn’t ‘numbing” of “fake” any more than antibiotics are.
You seem to believe antidepressants are like uppers or downers where you chuck a handful and ten minutes later you feel a wave of happiness roll over you. Here’s a secret: take a few of those pills and you will feel… absolutely nothing. Anti-depressants do not produce a “high” in any sense of the word. Changes in mood take months to appear and are usually not even recognized by the patient. It’s their friends who tend to notice it first.
I wish I hadn’t tried to “tough it out” for so long and being scared away from medication after hearing things like they would numb you or make you feel like a robot. I don’t feel that way at all now that I’ve experienced a number of these medications firsthand.
But it gives you time to teach teens coping skills, ingrain healthy habits, and get them through some of the tough teenage years, so you can then back down on meds when they are in a better place, with a better toolkit, to create adults who want to live.
I agree the meds are not the best answer in all cases. And there is nothing wrong with discussing their negative aspects. But that doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose in some cases.
Especially cases where it truly is a chemical imbalance causing the depression. Which may be more cases than you realize.
From my perspective, the point of contention is whether we are doing this to a satisfactory level, or even "seriously" trying to. Like, what can we point to as humanity seriously trying, with the same seriousness we devote to other endeavours?
My most important observation is that both of them killed themselves for a myriad of overlapping reasons: childhood trauma from physical abuse, lack of access to therapy, body shame/eating disorders, and stress from experiencing discrimination/hate in their schools and religious communities, as well as more issues which I’m sure were hidden from those around them. They both had problems before the pandemic, COVID just added another to the list.
In a way, theres a reason to be optimistic - any problem you solve that’s causing people real suffering will reduce suicides. There are so many opportunities to tackle this problem.
Someday, when we mature enough as a society, maybe we'll touch on the subject on high rates of male suicide during the absolutely normal periods of time, and how it's all driven by the pressure to sustain yourself and succeed in playing the game of capitalism.
1. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCENqBB_xNax3mLX_WGLf2Lg
At least in my little bubble the emotional and psychological struggle has escalated greatly in these covid times of increased anxiety, destroyed routines, and much deeper isolation.
Everyone's trying to cope, one way or another. It's hard to watch.
I personally keep trying to shake the jadedness, getting sucked into technical work for the numbing blanket of my mind, I want to look my family members in the eyes. To be present with them.
It's... kind of working.
Here, the reporting of this factoid almost certainly means there was no significant change in actual suicides, or in attempted suicides of the population at large. So both may well be true.
Yes, staying on strong mood-neutralizing antidepressants forever isn't a full life and it's probably bad for your liver. Yes, when you are laying in bed and can't do anything, those external factors that are making you hate your life will get worse until something, including a chemical that's bad for your kidneys, gets you up and walking. They are both true at the same time.
I'm not a social person (age almost 40), and I ought not to feel any consequences of that, cause even a strict lockdown wouldn't change my life too much. And I have a friend who isn't particularly stress-prone (a former warzone guy, 4 kids, a strong mindset).
And guess what, we both experienced numerous acute panic attacks in 2020, without realizing what it was. We both have called an ambulance and thought this is the end of me, only to learn later what panic attack is. And we both never got covid. Doctors say that it is a very common phenomenon to observe. Idk about him, but my mental state I find pretty questionable now, because something induces anxiety in it non-stop from the spring 2020. I don't watch TV, neither read on pandemic situation consciously. Visited therapist for a whole last year.
I can imagine what all that does to regular people, and probably can't imagine what teens may feel about it.
Can anyone share similar observations, or am I just a coincidence?
Like you, it was also the first time I had experienced a panic attack and learned what it felt like.
Yeah, the fear of death as they call it. I really didn't understand this phrase before, thinking it was something abstract. It's unlike any other feeling I've had, just off the charts. And I'm (was) not particularly the guy who is scared to watch a horror movie alone in the night.
Considering my healthy history my doctor and I agreed to try deal with it on a lifestyle level. I did meditation, yoga and revised my diet. I became more healthy but still had the panic attacks. We then stepped this up to therapy which I did for a year but still had the panic attacks. They were totally random and incredibly draining. My life & work were seriously affected and so I eventually followed the doctors advice to consider medication. Saw a psychiatrist and started the most basic SSRI at the minimum dose for panic disorder. I had a few attacks during the first two weeks and then they just stopped entirely. 100% completely. Haven't had one since.
So - my advice. If you are seriously struggling with panic attacks on a continuing basis despite a reasonable level of lifestyle interventions please don't do what I did and basically resist trying psychiatric medicine because you're healthy, successful and happy in your life and can't see a "legit" reason to be on meds. It felt like a much bigger intervention to me than it really is. I know for some people dealing with this sort of thing isn't this easy but for a lot it seems it can be.
(Also I don't blame my doctors at all, I always felt well informed about the options available to me. Obviously in retrospect with the way my life was affected meant I should have seen a reason to try meds sooner. At least the year of therapy was good for me even though it didn't stop the panic disorder!)
For example, it can make birth control pills fail, allergy meds build up in your system, and serotonin build up if combined with another anti-depressant.
Instagram grows in usage during the pandemic. And there's also TikTok. Both of these can highlight how much fun others are having while you're "stuck".
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2021/10/05/heres-ho...
The US never really locked down after maybe the first two or three week period. The “lockdowns” we had were mostly performative and not really enforced. This is in huge contrast to some cities in Australia for example, where lockdowns were both prolonged (lasting months) and those violating them were smacked down consistently.
Of course, it's ineffective against omicron which is just too infectious to be stopped, and they aren't doing it now.
Hmm... that's certainly not universal. I have a couple of Australian's I met travelling on instagram, and they are posting the most extreme anti-lockdown media I've seen (comparing it to nazi germany, etc). Not sure how common that sentiment is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's quite widespread. 18 months is a long time to be locked down for.
Australia has shown they are the same level as the Middle East, e.g. Iran and Afghanistan.
As long as your warlord likes you, your good.
Absolute bullshit. Everything in NYC was closed for three months; bars, restaurants, and schools were closed for much longer than that.
it has been excruciating for me living alone during 2020. Getting out of bed was a battle nearly every day. The pandemic came just in time when I thought I finally learned how to manage a severe depression that got triggered by a burnout, which was lasting over a decade, and included 2 suicide attempts, drug abuse, and losing most people in my life at that time due to my own behavior.
When the pandemic hit I realized that how I felt all these years has become suddenly a very common way people feel all over the world. Depressed, isolated and on the verge of succumbing to darkness.
What I learned for myself (long before the pandemic) is that I need: a strong routine which includes time-boxing not just work but also play. avoid any chemistry that changes the way I feel naturally (sugar, coffee, cigarettes, alcohol, and especially the self-prescribed weed). after reducing anything artificial mentioned, I started facing my emotions. that means stopping everything when a certain feeling hits me, and analyse that feeling telling myself it will eventually pass, but not taking any other action. e.g. I would not continue anything (including eating or drinking) and remain in my chair until I learned that this feeling has no power over me and that just because I feel it, isn't going to change my routine or send me back into my old rut. treating such dark emotions like a "monster" that can only be killed by staring at it until it leaves me alone, prevented sending me back to the dark place.
Another thing that has hugely contributed to recovery was changing the country. I moved to a new place 3x since 2020 and that has me thinking on my feet (new language, new things to discover, different culture, warm people). I have no time to wallow because I'm flooded with new experiences, and am making new memories every day. Even allowed myself to fall in love twice since the pandemic hit. But I'm not ready to bring in other people into "my new world".
The pandemic shook me awake. I realized there is a danger out there that is at least as scary as the darkness that lives in myself or anything I could do to myself. It made me realize that I need to screw my 5 or 10 year plans and do whatever I want right now or perhaps never will get a chance. It's not that I am in an easier situation than a family with toddlers, because my kids are grown up, my ex wife is god knows where, and so I can just go and do as I please. But the story I tell myself today is very different than 5 or 10 years ago. To paraphrase Don Draper in Mad Men: "If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation." (and this especially applies to the dialogue in my head)
every country I go to has a "honey moon" phase that lasts until reality hits when I'm forced to integrate (learn the language, start working, etc ...). Some countries are harder than others. On one hand I'm tempted to live an expat live (surround myself with foreigners and other people who are outward looking and who have a similar view on life), on the other hand, faster integration happens when facing the reality (and the struggle).
Less money upon arrival limits the honey-moon phase. Too much money could mean prolonging inertia.
These days I prefer Mediterranean countries where things are less "efficient", and I'm forced to adapt to a slower and more chaotic pace. I'm in love (put up) with the "chaos" of Latin countries. But finding work is also harder and requires sacrifices to what projects I accept and salary. Finding a local job with a terrible salary however can be better for the language skills.
It's hard to make an argument for Mediterranean places when most projects that pay well are abroad, so if salary is crucial for you maybe remote work can help.
After my honey-moon phase is over it gets really tough and staying put can be a horror. Having interests outside of work (e.g. history and culture of the place) usually gets me through. And I tend to stay longer if I learned the language and understood how locals live (which for me is the whole point of doing it).
If you build a client base as a freelancer all across Europe (or whatever continent) then the country itself doesn't matter so much. But you may end up without a real "home". I know that no matter how cool I think it is in the first 2 years, ultimately I will want to get out. Knowing my time is limited (e.g. 2-3 years max) allows me to stay positive and appreciate every day at the place I'm at. Usually I have milestones of what I want to achieve before I go there (that are always personal goals and have nothing to do with work. e.g. work is a means to an end and to achieve that private goal)
But to answer your question I'd say I like it anywhere with an ocean, and great food. If the food is bland usually the rest is less appealing. German food is not my thing but history and culture can make up for it. And there are plenty of international restaurants. So to live in Germany happily salary has to support eating out 3-4 times per week. Some places I liked would be Ireland (I dislike Dublin). Cork and Limerick are awesome, Palermo (or Rome), Madrid, Bilbao (I dislike Barcelona), Toulouse, Aix-en-Provence, Lisbon, Porto, Malta, Lausanne/Geneve, Copenhagem, Malmö ... even Eastern Europe (Belgrad, Zagreb) but only with remote jobs and with strictly time-boxed stay.
Some places in Germany are (IMHO) easier than others. Frankfurt is a sh!thole, the best thing about Munich is the highway to Austria (that will lead ultimately to Italy), Berlin is OK depending if you still want to party every night. Aachen & Cologne or Duesseldorf are more relaxed than Bavaria and I find people there really friendly and open. Again Bavaria is a nightmare IMHO. Although Duesseldorf or Cologne can get boring if you are with a partner or (gulp) kids, ... at least for my taste.
Luxembourg can be great but it's built on holding companies and off-shore money, so the scene can get a bit seedy and very banking/insurance oriented. I love Paris (single), but with kids it's a nightmare.
If you don't like Germany try Vienna. It's a bit more laid back than Berlin/Munich, and has culturally a lot to offer. Switzerland is equally cool due to the many meet-ups, winter-sports, mountaineering, great salary ... but can be equally tough as Germany especially if you're not planning on learning German. I think language is key. If I can't motiva...
I'm certain if people were bombarded with touching individual case reports of people, including children, suffering under the measures and not just under the effects of the virus, public opinion would be different. As it is the reporting is very one sided though with everyone focused on the virus to the point that nothing else matters anymore to many. It's not surprising that this can induce panic, I find it scary myself.
I think the article split those numbers out because one was in summer and the other year over year in winter: you can't just sum them because among other reasons there is a seasonality component to suicide I believe.
One other quirk of our society that has become clear is that what you hear in the media is absolutely correlated to which media you consume. In my experience, which is 99% reading news sites online, the testing is absolutely reported. Even emphasized, and made clear that the positivity % is a more telling metric than the number of cases. And that hospital utilization is the true metric we're trying to keep down.
FWIW, 22.3% was the 2019 -> 2020 stat, and 39.1% was the 2020->2021 stat. I'm really not sure what you mean by saying that stats from two separate years add up to 70%. Especially when those number do not.
Successive percentage increases multiply:
1.223 * 1.391 = 1.701193
There’s not enough information reported to conclude that those increases “stack”.
I've never ONCE in years, seen cases reported along with tests given and I look at sites of all political ideologies. You can go look in the front page of the New York times right now and there's just case counts with no indication of how many tests have been given. Same with WaPo.
It kind of boggles my mind how you could even say that.
That's kind of evidence of mass formation psychosis?
The entire anti-vaxxer movement makes perfect sense if you look at it like a mass psychosis of denial and a trauma response.
Questioning the mainstream media is a bit of a meme these days and unfortunately most people that bring up this point have a bit of an agenda to say the least, but: One thing that’s bothered me about the MSM from the start of the pandemic is the market fueled necessity to keep pumping out “news” when nothing important has happened.
Our desire to keep ourselves more informed has perhaps created this MSM monster that now through overexposure of fear and all other negative emotions that “sell” themselves are responsible for the trauma response that is conspiracy theories, flat out denial and a lack of consideration of expertise, not only for the pandemic but for climate change and much more.
Also I beleive that everytime officcials and MSM and threads like these completely undermine and ignore the millions of people who are traumatized by the pretty rough vaccine side effects ( Moderna is no joke ). these people wonder what else os being hidden.
And the gap becomes wider and more fantatic.
There is no anti vaxx movement.
As so many people are being infected anyway, odd are they are not showing up for boosters once infected.
And sinve the vaccine cards expire in 9 months (EU), you are never getting the entire EU population to show up for yearly inoculation.
Especially those who got infected anyway and those who suffered pretty badly by the vaccines but are ruthelessly dismissed.
Anti vaxx movement is dead. The vaccines are incredibly leaky, and cause pretty severe side effects especially in young men. They do not allow society to resume normality even if 100% are vaccinated ( do the math, the effect wears off so fast that its impossible to keep 100% even if every single himan on the planet had access and diligently showed up ).
The anti vaxx sentiment is dead. It died with omicron. In a year all but older people i the rich west and possibly health care workers will techincally be considered unvaccinated.
Also, masks still made no difference in the spread. Not even a dent in Omicron. Only countries with high natural immunity has had relatively lower omicron curves.
Try the antivaxxer/antimasker /smooth brain/trumpis propaganda all you want in the virtual world. In the real one, parents want their children back to school.
Elderly want to enjoy the few uears they have left outside of covid prison.
Young people want to meet and fuck other young people.
And evrr single officcial MSM praised health expert has turned out to be not only wrong, but laid a platform for intruse sureveillance and degrading humans to nothing more than viral plague hosts that most be muffled, injected and locked up.
Tldr; antivaxxer as a basis for the hatred of common hunan desire to find someone to hate is dead. Vaccines and masks are nowhere near what was promised and omicron proved it
> Anti vaxx movement is dead. The vaccines are incredibly leaky, and cause pretty severe side effects especially in young men. They do not allow society to resume normality even if 100% are vaccinated ( do the math, the effect wears off so fast that its impossible to keep 100% even if every single himan on the planet had access and diligently showed up ).
They are leaky, but not incredibly so. They show around 70-80% protection (with 3 doses for Omicron, 2 for earlier variants). That's a massive difference, especially when you consider that for a second-order transmission that reduces the chance by 80% of the 20% remaining, making it 95% effective and so on.
As a young person who has had ongoing side effects from the vaccine, I have to say that I'm the only person I know who has had this problem. It's very rare. Similar side effects from covid itself are much more common in all demographic categories (except for moderna in young men - they should get a different vaccine).
Honestly, it's probably healthier for everyone to turn off the news for a half year, and did not worry about it. If you get sick, take care of it. If you don't, take care of those who do.
Lose weight. Exercise. Eat healthy. Live your life. Build and nurture friendships. Find and improve hobbies. Grow your family. You'll be fine until you die. But you can die any and every day for any arbitrary reason, so forget COVID and start taking care of life.
Hospitals were getting overwhelmed. So "taking care of it" for many was not as trivial as the usual flu. Consider that 40% of adults in the US are obese which is a complicating factor for unvaxed infection.
Self control and discipline suck, but there's no easy button to life. People wanted the Vax to be an easy button.
It requires winning the genetic lottery or having a significant amount of self control to maintain a healthy weight as one ages. In some places healthier food is also more expensive, such as in major cities and food deserts.
Until the food industries are regulated more responsibility it's unrealistic and cruel for those of us born to be thinner to demand people 'just' exercise more and eat less.
Serious question: I get that this is supposed to be a clever metaphor but what the hell does this even mean in a vaccine context?
That protection level lasts for about two months and then nosedives to uselessness[0].
If we keep pumping people with boosters, the manufacturers and the media aren't going to be able to keep suppressing reporting about the resulting heart issues the mRNA vaccines cause in many people[1].
Again, the vaccines are astoundingly leaky and were designed for a variant of the virus that hasn't existed in any meaningful way for a while.
People with only natural immunity from any variant are shown to have much better protection than mRNA vaccinated and boosted people[2].
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/23/health/booster-protection...
[1] https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/more-bad-news-on-covid-v...
[2] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1479528897259712513
Then the interesting question is what to do about it. You can give up a lot of life’s freedoms and enjoyment to maybe cut that 50-year risk in half. Is that worth it? To my reckoning: Not to me, not to my elderly parents, and not to my kids. I’m thankful that my kids are at least pre-teen and not (yet) teen or college age where our choices are hitting much harder.
https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1479528897259712513
US data has a similar separation between vaccinated and not:
https://twitter.com/cliffordlevy/status/1480184928054779905
I guess if people are making their decisions based on a belief that significant reductions in hospitalization aren't beneficial, that explains something.
So there is a signficant reduction in the risk of hospitalisation from vaccination right now, but we're seeing close to all the benefit that we're likely to at least from a society-wide perspective. There's no way to stop the hospital system from collapsing just by rounding up the remaining unvaccinated and getting them vaccinated. (Individual unvaccinated people might of course get a lot of personal benefit from getting jabbed, depending on age and health.)
What is the absolute risk reduction you get from the shots? “95% effective” is a relative risk reduction and only refers to severe illness or death, not infection or transmission (neither of which were studied).
My little sister is triple-vaxxed and sick as hell with COVID right now
I chose not to take any vaccines and just had a pretty mild case of Omicron
But of course I'm still not allowed to go out to dinner in NYC, even though my immunity is now better than someone with a vax card
The one thing about natural immunity is that it does not prevent the transmission or spread of the virus on a population level. For example, prior to the ’90s, there were yearly outbreaks of varicella among school aged children despite the fact that at least 99% of the adult population has natural immunity to the disease.
After widespread vaccination, outbreaks of that disease are practically unheard of.
For the same virus, the CDC recommends that healthy adults over 50 years of age who have prior immunity get 2 additional doses of another formulation of that vaccine to prevent a resurgence of the same disease in older adults.
On another note, if the percentage of the population immune to a certain viral illness drops below a certain threshold because a subset of the population is refusing vaccination, then outbreaks will occur. It happened a few years ago with measles.
> The vaccines are incredibly leaky, and cause pretty severe side effects especially in young men
Do you have sources backing up this statement?
As for the concept of "leaky" vaccines, you need to realize that vaccines have never had 100% effectiveness and that their effectiveness is through achieving the goal of getting a high percentage of the population immune to a particular disease, something that's never really achieved by relying on natural immunity on its own.
Unfortunately, the parts of your comment pertaining to spread, immunity, and vaccinations are not accurate and rely on assumptions that are known to be false. Many people keep trying to counter bad information, but it seems like a battle that's not winnable[1].
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law
Mentally, VR has helped us a lot during the pandemic. Yes, it’s far from perfect and it’s not entirely the same as being physically there; but it is just awesome being able to hang out with family and friends in VR and have a sense of space. We workout together; or play racquetball, bowling, darts, ping pong, board games, or fish to name a few activities. These are people who are hundreds or even thousands of miles away. Some aren’t even in the same continent. Way better than a phone call or FaceTime / Zoom. Without it, my anxiety would seemingly get out of hand at times. I don’t live alone, but I also get somewhat isolated without it.
Outside of the pandemic, I can see parents using this as a convenient way to “hangout” and catch up with friends.
It’s too bad Facebook destroyed their reputation, or a lot more people would be trying it out and enjoying it at their $299 price point, especially the past two years. While PCVR is an option, it’s too expensive for normal people (starting around $2400 for everything) and setup is not easy for the non-technical.
https://www.elmundo.es/ciencia-y-salud/salud/2022/01/07/61bc... (source in Spanish)
But if I'm being honest, so much has improved for me during the pandemic that I don't know how to feel about it.
I feel very guilty for saying this because people are dying and I've got more privilege than I can handle, but consider the following:
I was already anxious and depressed and wanted to self-isolate. Now everyone is anxious and depressed and forced to self-isolate.
I used to hate interactions with random people, especially delivery drivers. Now nobody wants to interact with anybody.
Being a remote worker was sort of weird. Now I can be remote and competitive.
There's so much more good content because everyone is at home and online. Also bigger gaming playlists.
Being a science news junkie has unlocked some real world value about how to best stay safe.
I learned a lot about how the public gets information and got rid of some "vaccine hesitant" friends and family.
mRNA vaccines are going to treat so many diseases so much faster now. HIV vaccine soon!
It used to be strange to wear a mask anywhere, even though it will keep you from getting sick during flu season, but now it's become normalized.
I'm sure there's a bunch of other things that I've already gotten used to and forgotten about, but mostly it's made avoiding face-to-face contact possible in pretty much every situation, which is really working for me right now.
Sure, I'm dissociating as years drift by with absolutely no social contact or memories, but I was probably going to do that anyway.
For me, this used to be a "mental health issue". Now I'm just responsible!
Of course, I won't be shocked if the virus ends up mutating in a way that wipes out humanity... but so far, with a little bit of luck, it's been a pretty big improvement for me personally.
I hope we somehow bring this to a sane resolution the same as everyone else, but I'm going to capitalize on this guilt-free way to self-isolate for as long as I reasonably can.
Clearly this some sort of bad and unhealthy way to live, but it's kind of comfy. I think English may lack a term for how this feels.
Perhaps we need a word. It would be a good one, since the best words combine complex, even opposite concepts. My first thought was "sickly-sweet". I also like the new phrase "doom scrolling", combining the dramatic and the banal, which also kind of applies. Somehow the phrase "doom snuggle" comes to mind (although this sounds more like a situation resulting in an unusable arm). Maybe better is "isolace", a portmanteau describing the solace of isolation.
I recently been locked up in my apartment due to panic attacks. Only go to gym to walk on treadmill.
To be clear, i have chronic anxiety which got worse due to me moving to another country where i don't have any relatives. On top of that i was very overworked.
It's been a month since then and i still can't recover. It's very hard for me to go outside. If i go to unfamiliar places or there's too much people i start feeling like panic attack is building up. And on work, i can't concentrate, and have mild panic attacks during meetings(if i have to speak). Took a few weeks vacation which is ending in few days. And i feel like i'm still not ready to start working...
Anyway, it was a trigger and not the reason, you may turn out to be pretty close on that.
> .../ everyone basically lives their life like before, except wearing masks in public places and mandatory vaccination to visit a mall or a restaurant (also "manageble").
Most places I go in public (mainly grocery/retail stores) it's around 40% of the people I see do not wear masks, even when signs are clearly posted. I'm out in public far less than I was 2 years ago, so perhaps I'm statistically unlucky in seeing particularly 'bad' times, but probably not.
Interestingly, the Apple store in town was the only place I've ever seen where it was 100% mask usage, and they had some folks at the front that calmly but firmly prevented entrance without a mask. I saw that twice over a 3 month period, but... perhaps they've reverted now?
https://www.ajc.com/news/grand-jury-indicts-man-accused-of-k...
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/pregnant-convenience-store-worke...
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/10/12/apple-store-mask-fig...
For kids, and marginalized communities, school closures are surely the most noticeable.
One thing I did fairly early on was to get a therapist though. My reasoning was that they could basically help monitor my situation. Not that I don't have things to discuss with a therapist anyways. It helped I guess. No panic attacks, just some sleep issues and minor hallucinations.
I think while the first quarantine / lock-down could not be avoided, the current situation could be avoided if we were able to battle the misinformation and reach 90% vaccination in every country.
This pandemic is more severe than it has to be because it's also a mental health crisis. The people engaging in anti-vaxx conspiracies sound out of touch and deluded, but I think this is their way to cope. (believing in magic, wishful thinking, denial, are all pretty common with disease/health issues or in the face of uncertainty). Like an ostrich sticking their head into the sand it's probably how they deal with many other challenges in life too.
Question really is how to go forward. Those who say "let it rip" might have an agenda to kill as many people as possible on the planet (out of spite but probably because they're themselves deeply depressed or isolated).
One proposal that many hate but could stop the pandemic is to allow exception for certain cases prescribed by a doctor, but for everybody else vaccination has to be mandatory. We did it with measles and smallpox, so why not with covid?
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Summary:
We did a Review of the psychological impact of quarantine using three electronic databases. Of 3166 papers found, 24 are included in this Review. Most reviewed studies reported negative psychological effects including post-traumatic stress symptoms, confusion, and anger. Stressors included longer quarantine duration, infection fears, frustration, boredom, inadequate supplies, inadequate information, financial loss, and stigma. Some researchers have suggested long-lasting effects. In situations where quarantine is deemed necessary, officials should quarantine individuals for no longer than required, provide clear rationale for quarantine and information about protocols, and ensure sufficient supplies are provided. Appeals to altruism by reminding the public about the benefits of quarantine to wider society can be favourable.
"The psychological impact of quarantine and how to reduce it: rapid review of the evidence" https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
The problem is misinformation, but not the kind you refer to. The misinformation is in the impression given that COVID-19 is a much more dangerous virus than it is really is, especially for the non-elderly.
Most of the public over-estimates the risk of COVID, by 10 to 100 times:
https://archive.fo/wciQp