Ask HN: Can we ban Twitter links, please?

235 points by whyoh ↗ HN
Every day there are posts here with some Twitter thread as the source.

This used to be just annoying in the past (because of the overall low quality of such sources), but now it's gone too far. Twitter won't let you see the content without logging in anymore. At least this is what I see when I open a Twitter link and scroll down: https://i.imgur.com/E0h2CtQ.png

There are many free blog posting platforms out there that don't annoy users like that and — needless to say — are in a much more readable format. All it takes is a couple of minutes to sign up...

I think such a HN rule could help in promoting common decency on the web.

EDIT: A couple of posters made valid points against an outright ban. Someone suggested flagging paywalls/credential-walls. How about lowering the score for Twitter-link submissions (something like: 1 vote counts 0.5 votes)?

132 comments

[ 123 ms ] story [ 3933 ms ] thread
NYTimes is just a paywall. There are a few of these. Flagging them as credential_walls or pay_walls would be cool.
Linking from HN to paywalled sites does nothing to discourage such site's behaviour. Fine, if you want a paywalled internet just don't suck the life out of the open version.

It's a common complaint that decent websites don't get surfaced on Google - well given so many valuable links are going to cloaked sites such as NYT, it's no wonder?

Someone will mostly put an archive link in the comments. Some of those stories are valuable.
Flagging would be better than nothing, I guess. But it's not enough IMO.

My main problem with Twitter is the UI, which is bad in general and terrible for long posts (threads). The second problem is the "culture" of posting outrage and low quality content in general, often full of typos (due to Twitter being a mobile-centric platform). Requiring credentials is just the last straw.

So I think a stronger deterrent is needed. If not a ban, lowering the score for Twitter-link submissions (each vote counts 0.5 votes)?

I do not want content missing out on page 1 simply because it's on Twitter. That content may not be available elsewhere, meaning that people are very likely to miss useful and informative posts. And it's not like a vote bias on HN is going to make those people move off of Twitter.

Either use an extension to redirect you to a site like nitter.net, manually adjust the URL yourself, or just don't click on Twitter links at all.

I think there already is a rule. Something like "If it's a link to another link, just link to that one."

My suspicion is they do it hoping that people who click it will also follow them on Twitter.

> My suspicion is they do it hoping that people who click it will also follow them on Twitter.

In my experience tweets are almost never submitted by the tweet's author.

I don't understand this ... people aren't posting links to their own tweets, they're posting links to tweets by other people that they found.
Is that different from posting a link to a webpage you found?
In short, no, linking to a thing you found on Twitter is absolutely no different from posting a link to a webpage you found. That's what I'm saying.

Other people seem to think that HN users are submitting links to tweets that they themselves authored, and that's generally not the case, so there seem to be a lot of misconceptions flying around.

I misread your original comment and can see that now. I don’t like the slow degrade of the twitter experience for non-users and would like to see them get pushback from turning twitter into a Pinterest-like walled garden. But this isn’t the place to do it.
Twitter lets you see that specific content but nothing else w/o logging in. Still better than full blown paywalls IMO.
Twitter Threads are the absolute worst!

Just write a blog post already!

But I guess for better or worse, the Twitter Threads get people more internet points!

Twitter played well in the impulse control game and unfortunately won over many people. Crafting a blog post takes way more effort compared to a rant like loosely connected stream of tweets.
I wrote this about 13 years ago (a little tongue in cheek) but it held up:

https://sensepost.com/blog/2009/twitter-killed-the-infosec-b...

-snip- There’s something liberating about saying “here’s a link”, as opposed to taking the time to formulate your thoughts into a full blown posting.

We were curious if this twitter-effect was real, imaginary or only applicable to lazy people like us.. Thanks to python-twitter and a few lines of script we can look at the the blogging habits of some info-sec superstars (and maybe confuse correlation and causation to jump to conclusions while we at it). -snip-

I've never come to understand the disdain for tweet threads. Sure, a blog would be nice, but as a reader I have no idea if it's going to render correctly on mobile or be inundated with terrible ads. At minimum there'll be a braindead cookie banner taking up 1/3 of the screen. Meanwhile, the author now has to go set up a blog somewhere, link to it, moderate comments on two forums, etc. All because people can't read with a faint horizontal line between coherent thoughts? Or is there something I'm missing?
> but as a reader I have no idea if it's going to render correctly on mobile (...). At minimum there'll be a braindead cookie banner taking up 1/3 of the screen

This is the reality of reading twitter on mobile if you aren't logged in/using their app though.

>All because people can't read with a faint horizontal line between coherent thoughts? Or is there something I'm missing?

It's more than just a horizontal line. There are icons and buttons in every post, that is, every couple of sentences. Hover-over popups that obfuscate content. Distractions and irrelevant click-bait content on the side and on the bottom. Embedded media (images, videos) behave poorly. Obfuscated external links. Cookie/sign-in banners that take more space than on other websites. I could probably go on if I took another look, but seeing how Twitter is now forcing me to log-in, I can't.

And I think just about every remotely popular blogging platform works properly on mobile, it's not 2005 anymore. Ads might be a problem on some, I'm not sure. But I bet even with ads it's not as bad as Twitter overall. For testing I opened a Blogspot link now with no adblock and there was just one unobtrusive ad on the side, way better than Twitter in terms of readability.

> I have no idea if it's going to render correctly

This is actually my problem with that website and the main reason I hate Twitter threads. Twitter doesn't let me open anything in a new tab properly, sometimes (like last week) opening images in posts doesn't work for days, and I stopped using the site because after about a month the notifications stopped showing anything new, I literally had to scroll through my own profile and manually look for answers to my posts! In the best case this is an unreadable mess where everything has to be unfolded like a messy origami; and sometimes this reloads the site, sometimes it doesn't, either way it comes with at least a second of loading time.

I'd like those threads if they were as readable as comments here on HN. But Twitter seems to test how inaccessible they can make their main content without people leaving.

I don't have any problems with Twitter threads. Why don't you like them? I can consume them easily on mobile and on my desktop.

On the other hand I think apps that unroll threads are the worst. All the spammy answers just saying "@threadreaderapp" or something like that - THAT is the worst in my eyes.

Nothing against blog posts, I'd also prefer a blog post over a Twitter thread.

> All the spammy answers just saying "@threadreaderapp" or something like that - THAT is the worst in my eyes

Agreed, I wish Twitter would just crack down on that and ban bots like that.

I'd prefer if twitter just made its interface not terrible so that there'd be no need for threadreaderapp.
I'm not a fan of Twitter threads but the interface got a lot better since they added proper threading. Adding x/x identifiers isn't really necessary any more and reading is a much better experience than it used to be.

I'm almost convinced that people just post the @threadreaderapp unroll for engagement.

Better than it used to be is not a very high bar to clear.

As a reader, I actively seek the threadreaderapp posters and follow these links to improve the reading experience. Or just go to nitter since I discovered that it's a thing.

You're shouting at the wrong people. The problem isn't HN users posting their insights to Twitter and then submitting those links. The problem is other people, often some with useful or valuable insights, post to Twitter, and then HN people find that information.

What to do?

We can copy that information to our own site and post a link to that, but the guidelines ask us to post original sources.

We can ignore it,but that means ignoring a possible source of useful and insightful information.

Or we can post a link to the tweet, and rely on HN users to find a way to read it, such has been suggested elsewhere in this discussion.

But telling HN readers to post on their own blog is a bit pointless.

> Twitter Threads are the absolute worst!

It really depends on what corner of Twitter you live in. I follow a dozen or so people and see nothing but high quality content.

> Every day there are posts here with some Twitter thread as the source

These threads are extremely and overwhelmingly popular and that surprises me.

These threads always start off like "Here's how to make $100MM in 10 hours" and then multiple sub posts of most generic nonsense I've ever seen.

What's even interesting is people think they get tremendous value out of there and share/re-tweet and go crazy about them.

Am I really stupid or are most people on Twitter who engage with these threads on some kind of hallucinogen(s)?

I don't have a Twitter account, but I view posts and threads simply by opening Twitter links in a private browser window. Does that not work for you all?
> I don't have a Twitter account, but I view posts and threads simply by opening Twitter links in a private browser window. Does that not work for you all?

No. After a while there's a huge modal layer asking me to log in

I would do the same for all the paywall links, there are really a lot of HN lately.
Twitter is a platform for politicians and the rich to announce stuff and new laws. Haven't u... 1/8
Ha ha haha - EXACTLY to the last dot!

I am terrified of where we are headed as a society. I get that writing blogs are more time consuming than tweeting but for the consumer - is this content really valuable in the long term?

There are some posts where Twitter is the primary source. Banning Twitter outright isn't a solution for this type of situation.
I'd much rather we ban paywalled links.
Paywalled links without an alternative are disallowed as far as I know.

When you encounter one, go into the comments and there will be an archive.is link.

I'm disappointed by what Twitter has become and wish this could happen.

But sometimes the content is relevant or innovative; not sure it's fair to expect HN to take a principled stance against the platform.

How about a preference that hides Twitter submissions? Half the time I skip them anyway or hit Back before the site finishes loading. If enough readers move along, perhaps it would incentivize publishers to as well.

Doesnt the HN voting system kind of take care of this problem? If the tweet is low-quality, not important, then it wont get many upvotes.

But if the tweet is highly important, has information people believe is valuable etc - then it gets upvoted towards the top of HN.

An outright ban on tweets also creates a secondary problem; what if there was some single tweet that was extremely important to the HN community. The inability to post it means people miss out on the news/discussion, until later on when it is re-submitted as a news story elsewhere.

I agree with this.

This is asked for somewhat regularly as well as banning paywalled sites. It would be wrong to do so.

In general I think it's good to have the primary source be the linked posting. If that's a Twitter thread or an original price of journalism on a paywalled site, and its interesting to the HN community it should be linked here.

What the OP if suggesting is that the only Twitter threads that are submitted are submitted by the Twitter user themselves, that's a tiny proportion of posts. If someone sees a twitter thread that would be interesting to the HN community there is no other option but to post it.

Exactly this. I don't click Twitter links myself and have considered taking the time to filter them out often. But I don't feel the need to impose that on others. Just because I think Twitter is a poor way to share and discuss information, and that the website is painful to use doesn't mean that I should deprive others.

Now an account-level domain filter. That would be a fantastic idea.

That's one way to view it.

Personally, I think it works the opposite. The voting only gives the community so much power. Often the content starts dictating the community, not the other way around. With enough low effort and uninteresting content clogging up the chronological feed, you eventually see core- and power users migrating to other sites or communities. The community is eventually transplanted by those who seek out the kind of content that made the core community leave, perpetuating the new kind of content.

I've seen it happen to a lot of subreddits.

I've seen it happen on various subreddits too, but preventing that is not done by blanket banning Twitter. It's by moderating the content so that the easy to consume stuff doesn't overwhelm the thoughtful content. And I do believe moderation is the only way to ensure the issue doesn't arise where quality content gets drowned out because the quick and easy to consume content will gather upvotes far faster.
But...the community provides the content, too. It's not like submissions of Twitter posts just materialize out of the aether. They're made by HN users.

So if you want different content, answer the question: What are you providing?

I wouldn't say that the community provides the content. Some of it, yes, but anyone can provide content, be they passerby, lurker, or indeed part of the community. But generally, the lurkers vastly outnumber the participants. Therefore, the actual community has very little power in the face of the faceless and voiceless masses. hn is a pretty niche site, all things considered. Given a surge in popularity, an influx of new lurkers, you might see the type of link being upvoted change over night. Your voice is powerless, the vote decides everything, and the lurkers have 90% of the votes.
(comment deleted)
Not anymore.

Last week we had an article about "Why babies cry" on the first page.

Exact title was "Why babies cry in the first three months, how to tell them apart, and what to do"

> There are many free blog posting platforms out there that don't annoy users like that and — needless to say — are in a much more readable format.

That is of no significance if the content you want to share is not on those platforms and you did not make the content.

Right. My suggestion/rant is not just strictly about HN posts, but about Twitter in general. I'm hoping HN discouraging such links would have a wider effect and encourage Twitter users to write their next blog post elsewhere.
What about rewriting links to Nitter?

https://nitter.net/about

Came here to say this. It's less user-hostile.
Right up to the point that it dies, takes all those links with it or redirects them to something completely different (or malicious).
when that happens you can just change the domain back to twitter.com
As a submitter I have no control over the platform the original content is published on.
Post link to nitter?
Somebody linked to nitter the other day (As an alternative to a twitter post) -- maybe thats what we should require-- if you must post a twitter link, please use nitter or similar
Or as a community, if we don't see a nitter link in the comments, add one.
(comment deleted)
I don't really like linking to alternative frontends. It actually makes it harder for people to decide for themselves. If I use extensions that redirect Twitter to my preferred Nitter instance hard-coding a Nitter link makes it worse for me. I feel the same way about people linking to old.reddit.com. I have configured Reddit to use the old UI automatically on desktop but on mobile I find the new UI the best of the awful options. However the old links still use the old UI because it was explicitly requested.

Basically the canonical URL serves as a consistent identifier, and the reader can choose how it opens. By linking to alternatives that you prefer you are depriving the power-user reader that choice to apply their preference.

So I think we should use canonical URLs most of the time (especially for popular sites) because I value viewers preferences more than submitters preferences or a better default.

You don't get to decide for others where they are writing, and you don't get to decide for others what they are upvoting on HN.

There aren't many Twitter submissions, at least on the front page.

Get over it, nobody forces you to click on a Twitter link. There are plenty of other submissions.

Let's ban Medium as well when we're at it. They go a step further and actually paywall free articles, rather than twitter that just needs a free account.
IMO it should be configurable per user.

Not only twitter, but all social media, paywalls, politics, etc.

Also HN desperately lacking tags: I only interested in couple of tech stacks/protocols and several problem domains/verticals - why do I need sift through all these unrelevant submissions?

IMHO that's the beauty of HN. By "sifting" through "unrelevant" submissions you discover things that you wouldn't have looked at otherwise.
I have agreed with all your points at one time or another but I now think that it's HNs structure that stops it turning into Reddit/social media or another echo chamber. I don't program or develop for a living or hobby any more but the realtively high quality submissions and the super high quality comments and discussions make the the trawl worth while, I regularly find interesting discussion in subjects I have no real interest in that cause me to reflect on my own opinions and thinking, to me that is invaluable and I don't get it anywhere else.
I think that would be complex to implement in a way that would be useful to enough people without getting in the way of everyone else, you are either putting a log of load on detecting what content is into the site, or putting that load onto submitters by expecting them to take time to tag things appropriately.

And the just isn't enough traffic to make it worthwhile IMO (is scanning a page, or maybe two, of HN to see if anything piques your interest really a chore?).

I avoid clicking twitter links generally, Medium too, but the discussion they bring up can be interesting, and often include links to relevant information from less irritating sources, so I wouldn't want them to simply not be here.

If you do want fully rid of the links yourself, maybe a userscript is a practical answer? Though if you are a Chrome user that option will be less convenient in future as IIRC Manifest 3 will break options like Tapermonkey (a bookmarklet will still work, assuming you don't mind an extra click).

One tip is to replace twitter.com in the URL with nitter.net. But I realise that isn’t a great solution. I think one must accept that, annoying as the platform may be, Twitter is the place where many discussions of interest to HN happen and so I think it ought to be acceptable to link it. One could imagine an alternative where people post buzzfeed-style blog posts that merely repost Twitter threads and I think that would be worse.
(comment deleted)
There could be a personalized setting to show/hide Twitter links.
Indeed, let's make sure only articles allowed are those with a cheesy work anecdote at the start for those who fall asleep too easily, then the entire life story of the subject person beginning with their dad, and ten screenfuls down you may finally learn what the article is supposedly about.

I'm not even exaggerating, that's one of the top posts from the past week. Editors of longreads in ‘serious’ publications love this formula for some mysterious reason.