Launch HN: Micro Meat (YC S21) – Technology for scaling cultivated meat
Cultivated meat is just real meat based on animal cells, but instead of getting meat by growing animals, it is grown in bioreactors. This will soon be much better for our planet: less land, water and feed required for the animals, less environmental impact from cutting down forests for farmland and feed production, less antibiotics, and of course, far less harm to animals.
The basic process for cultivating meat is known, but there remain difficult problems in bringing it to mass production. I’ll describe the process, the problems, and our solution.
Cultivating meat is similar to brewing beer, but instead of growing yeast, we grow muscle cells (plus fat cells for deliciousness!). The process begins with a handful of stem cells that are isolated from an animal. Initially, the volume is tiny and the cells are handled very carefully. They are mixed with medium, which is a mixture of growth factors like insulin, along with amino acids, and other nutrients that they need to grow. Then they are proliferated (multiplied) to upwards of 10M cells per mL.
After proliferating, the overall volume gets above 250 mL and shear stresses start to become an issue, meaning the cells get damaged and break apart. Traditional bioreactors use large impellers for mixing the cells and medium, along with a sparger which adds gasses like CO2 and O2. The impeller, gas bubbles, baffles, and internal surfaces are all locations where cells encounter damaging shear stresses. That’s not a problem if you’re cultivating bacteria, yeast, or other microorganisms that have a high tolerance for this. But mammal, bird and fish cells are very intolerant of such stresses, making it hard to cultivate meat. This is the first problem we address.
After the cells have proliferated from a very small volume to tens or hundreds of liters, they are still a mass of single, unorganized cells. In order to get delicious meat we need to make those individual cells merge and differentiate together to form actual muscle tissue that has the right texture. When cells differentiate, they change from being stem cells, into specialized cells and structures, for example, inside the cells myosin heavy chains develop along the actin cell-skeleton. These myosin-actin complexes are basically the motors of the muscle. For this, the cells get seeded onto constructs called scaffolds. A scaffold is like housing for the cells, a structure where cells can easily move into and grow. We usually try to make scaffolds that mimic the cells' natural environment in the animal's body so they feel as at home as possible.
Traditional methods pour the proliferated cells on top of the scaffold and hope that they “stick”. This is easy, but results in tissues that aren’t uniform—in some places the cells attach well, in other places not at all. Additionally, the scaffolds are not always edible—a major problem if you’re producing meat! Consistent cell distribution throughout the scaffold is the second problem we address, and edibility is the third.
The scaffolds are then reintroduced to reactors for another proliferation or differentiation, depending on the process. The cells are given time to mature, where they finalize their structure, orientation and internal make-up. At this point, you have muscle tissue, and the only thing left to add is components such as fat, which add to the taste and texture of the meat.
This process is immensely complex and the cost to produce it at scale is tremendous. To bring cultivated meat to the masses, the complexity and cost problems have to be solved. Many companies have spent years on R&D, but are still not able to produce at larger scales. We want to change that.
We asked ourselves, how could we protect these cells while they are in the harsh environment of the reactor, while also creating homogenous, high quality 3D scaffolds that are consistent throughout?
Our method addres...
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 254 ms ] threadI don't mean to dunk on your research and proprietary tech. I'm just often pissed to see that these kind of tech is completely overblown and overhyped in the mainstream and media. The worst part is, it gives people an excuse to not change their behavior today: "I'll switch to lab-grown meat when they sell", "I won't cut back on flying, doesn't matter since they will recapture that carbon anyways very soon".
And no, plant-based meat isn't there yet. It's something I often choose myself for environmental reasons, but it's still strictly worse than real beef. And non-ground meat substitutes aren't even in the ballpark.
I think lab-grown meat has a much better chance than plant-based meats of satisfying the "want" of meat, while drastically lowering the environmental effects of eating meat. And again, I think pursuing both options is the best choice. I eat less meat thanks to Impossible, and I hope they continue to succeed.
My argument, which I have yet to state in this dialogue, is that lab grown meat offers the opportunity to provide an experience very similar to eating "real" meat at a lower cost to the consumer, thus making it a viable alternative in ways that today's current plant based meat substitutes aren't.
I am definitely open to plant based meat substitutes taking that role, but in their current form that would still require a large behaviour change by a large percentage of the population.
Now renewable energy is different discussion and that requires a much smaller number of people to make (albeit much larger) behaviour changes.
I don't have anything against people pursuing lab grown meat research. I'm just a bit pissed that "futuristic" solutions get so much more mainstream media attention than practical solutions that already have an impact today.
What’s your favourite plant based meat? I’ll try it next time I go get groceries.
Beyond Meat is also good, but I think Impossible is another ballgame.
Tofurkey also makes great cold cuts (haven't tried their bugers yet).
And then there are a bunch of smaller brands making great products, too. But it's a bit of a hit and miss with them, so you need to try a bunch to find something you like.
I get the risk of giving people permission not to change behavior, but I don't think we actually see that happening today. Tesla sells every car it produces, and more and more governments and companies are making meaningful climate commitments and starting to follow through on them.
To address climate change we need all hands on deck, and that means exploring every possible approach to the problem. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, and don't need to write off technologies when they are in their infancy.
From an abstract of a research paper regarding FBS-free media.
Someone had to slaughter the livestock. Hunters ran down animals and killed them when they became exhausted, and to be a bit more blunt, we kill each other in wars and senseless violence every day. Look no further than our current conflict in Ukraine to see what that's like, even amidst our advanced society.
Humans have an enormous capacity for empathy and kindness, but we're also capable of some truly horrific acts if the circumstances require or demand it.
(fixed that for you)
Can you comment on how "green" are those materials?
How can all the chemicals and sterilising agents ever be more safe for consumption and environmentally friendly than animal grown alternatives?
1) there are plenty of other niches for microbe production that could possibly use the same technology. I am not suggesting you switch now, but something to keep in mind for the future. In my opinion, the current standard processes for working with bioreactors are slow and manual. I think there is a lot of room for efficiency improvements but it is rarely worth it for individual companies to make those investments.
2) Is all of the growth happening in a single bioreactor or do you have multiple sized bioreactors for different stages? I don't have a scientific background and I'm trying to understand the standard practices better.
edit: fixed typos.
I realize now that I probably should have made two comments.
Thanks for the explanation.
I've read that contamination is a huge issue, essentially, bacteria grows much better and faster at the substrate than mammalian cells. So, how do you avoid inadvertently cultivating smelly plaques instead of delicious meat?
Or is that not really an issue and I'm misinformed?
Best of luck. We really need it.
Congrats on the initiative, just absolutely fantastic!
This could actually be one of the new doors it opens. Perfectly sterile sashimi can travel farther.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621288
According to Paul Wood, the threat of bacterial contamination makes cultivated meat extremely expensive and un-cost-competitive.
Our group EarthPilot would love to provide support to this civilization scale project.
We work with some of the most brilliant and successful founders and teams on earth on leadership, mindset, high performance, culture and emotional mastery.
Conscientious meat lovers will invest in regenerative agriculture, lobby for ending corn feeding, reclaim all that land, return it to natural grassland, and let ruminant animals do what they do best -- feed the soil and make meat.
I think achieving a future where eating real meat is treated like a special occasion, but lab-grown meat is the norm is possible.
Finally, very few people would eat nutrition bars as regular meal replacements. Maybe there's a (vaguely dystopian) future where people replace most their meals with joyless supplementation, but I think a lot more success will be found in replacing real-meat with lab-meat.
Maybe this is all just too optimistic.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Imagine diluting the affordable-meat market. "Is this salami real or fake? Ugh I don't know, I'd rather eat soy than glued together chimeras."
While some risk of strange new disease would still be chanced - it would be orders of magnitude less extreme if this cell cloning technology concentrated in early days, on mass producing leathers and furs, rather than the very matter we put into our living bodies.
Does this mean that you are able to create adherent culture while still facilitating metabolic activities in multi-layer tissue?
1) Where are you in the development process? Have your scaffolds been used to successfully grow a piece of edible meat?
2) When do you think the value of cultivated meat will grow to a point to make the industry self-sustaining? Or even just for it to become a viable option for restaurants/consumers?
3) How is flavour added in the process? Since diet has so much impact on flavour, how can you experiment with flavour while growing it in lab? I understand this is specific to another step in the process, so if you can't answer, no worries.
4) When you say scaffolding, my mind immediately goes to a very visual/physically defined place. I'm picturing like a Ribeye Exoskeleton. What level of control over the sculpting of the end product do you have, or does the scaffolding function on a very general growth support level that results in the development of an end product that is then sculpted by the meat-maker?
5) Anne-Sophie, have you tried any lab grown meat?
6) How far away are we from seeing "at-home" kits for meat growing? I'm picturing a world where a restaurant has their meat-printer going all the time, experimenting with different flavours and textures for the next menu!
7) Does this have any non-edible use cases? Can this process be applied to growing functional muscle/tissue, not just edible muscle/tissue?
Thanks! Again, feel free to pick and choose.
2) ATKearney in their article "How will cultured meat and meat alternatives disrupt the agricultural and food industry?" estimates that about 10% of global meat consumption could be switched over to cultivated meat around 2030. While 10% is low, I think you'll start seeing restaurant experiences start cropping up more and more over the next 3-7 years.
3) For cultivated meat, one method of adding flavor is by cultivating fat cells and merging it with the muscle cells after maturing.
4) With our method, the final shape of the meat can actually get very unique. There really are no limitations on the shape/ layout of the meat, and the final shaping is done after maturing the cells. If you want to have chicken meat in the shape of a ribeye, you will definitely be able to with our technology.
5) We have not tasted it yet, but we will very soon!
6) We are probably closer than you might imagine. Our technology enables production at any scale, from a full industrial plant to a small "home brewing" set-up. Really, it just comes down to getting the medium and growth factors to be cheaper for the average consumer.
7) Generally yes, with some minor and not so minor adaptations.
Thanks for taking the time to answer.
10% in the next 8 years seems very impressive to me. Do you have a link to the report? I searched but their State of the Industry report has a question mark instead of a date
https://gfi.org/resource/cultivated-meat-eggs-and-dairy-stat...
You need double blind taste tests. It doesn't matter if cultured meat is good for the planet, if Joe Sixpack won't eat cultured meat because it tastes bad or has weird non-meat properties and textures, then your product will get no traction
If the texture/experience of chicken breast or a filet mignon can be perfected though, then we're talking about mass adoption on a global scale.
I do wonder if this means a potential end to cooking methods like BBQ. The skeleton of the animal plays a huge role in that cooking environment, I wonder if we can replicate it as well?
Looking forward to the future!
It’s not going to knock off any boutique burger and obviously not even a round steak, but I think that cultured meat is at least even-money to take a 30% market share of “beef” in the next 30 years.
Your cause, if successful, will hopefully indirectly result in orders of magnitude reduction in total animal suffering, so best of luck and godspeed.
Since you brought it up, are you aware of how global average surface temperature is measured? Or the adjustments that have been made to historic records?
I am a vegan of about 10 years now, and as (potentially) a constituent of the addressable market, here's why I'm not going to buy lab-grown "meat": my primary motivations for dietary veganism are to do with non-renewable resource consumption: potable water, land use, oil/energy, emissions, etc. Traditional industrial meat consumption uses around 10x land/energy/ghg emissions as plant crops per calorie, and about 100x the water (or more). It's not clear to me how the lab-grown meat addresses these resource consumption considerations.
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> Cultivating meat is similar to brewing beer
As a dietary vegan I don't know the first thing about meat, but I do know a little about home-brewing. In the case of home-brewing wine or beer, at least for me, it's about ~5x volume in water consumption (~5L of water makes 1L wine), including cleaning, mixing, etc. This is on a tiny scale; I'm sure if water consumption was optimized for you could do even less. Is cultivating lab meat closer in water use to brewing beer, or traditional meat farming? I'm also curious about the energy input; how many calories of energy in -> calories out?
If there are order-of-magnitude gains to be made in non-renewable resource consumption, I can get behind this even if I personally find it a little gross (sorry). At a small scale, I don't doubt the resource consumption is non-optimal, but how much can be gained by scale/optimization?
Plant based is probably the most common term for what you're trying to describe. Veganism is the ethical position.
It will also produce less waste, or at least better-controlled waste, than raising an entire animal. But again, more than a purely plant-based diet.
I can't give you numbers, but really, I can't see any reason for you to switch away from a vegan diet if you're satisfied with it. However, a lot of other people will switch from an animal-based diet to one that is somewhat more responsible and causes considerably less pain and suffering.
All meat eaters live with a certain cognitive dissonance on that, which most simply ignore because they consider plant-based diets insufficient. And as a vegan you know that a healthy plant-based diet isn't always easy -- though made a little easier recently by some highly processed products that aren't really all that much better for health or the environment.
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Alright, MF'rs - I apploud everything about this busniss.. but lets talk long term:
The stem cells are from which organism?
Where did they come from?
---I have an aside from a hospital at UCSF Dog Patch was researching how to express stem cells to a particular tissue.
I watched this machine in fucking person...
Where did stem cells come from?
There will be a black market in ~15 years for stem-call based organs that originate in non human sources.
There will be a bio-ID using the foundation f CRISPR to "digitally sign the origin of the DNA manufactured by this system" -- wait until you have digitally assigned, approved and allotted genes in a hemogonist platform of Micro-meats.