That isn't to say the US is better, worse, or just as bad. Just something to compare it to.
Edit much later: you know what, I was wrong to comment this on its own. There's a lot more nuance to this and it's not a fair comparison at all. Those that called me out on this are in the right.
The US has killed thousands of “militants” (and many people who were certainly innocent) with drone strikes in places where we’re not engaged in active conflict and without due process. It may or may not be wrong, case by case, certainly arguments to be made for both, but seems about the same motivation just further away than SA killing militants.
> The US has killed thousands of “militants” (and many people who were certainly innocent) with drone strikes in places where we’re not engaged in active conflict and without due process.
If you want to call those "war casualties", then those war casualties look a whole lot like executions.
And if they weren't war casualties on account of not being in a war zone, then they are simply executions.
The list is growing at a rate of about 1 country per year, which, if continued, would mean that the 21st century would be the last in which countries formally kill their own citizens.
It is mere coincidence that you respect one country's due process and don't respect another country's due process.
Most places have non-arbitrary paths to punishment or any state actions, codified somewhere. And our media and pop culture just doesn't acknowledge that.
The similarities are greater than the dissimilarities.
It wouldn't have been as simple as the King or MBS saying that. There are some nuanced articles about the judiciary there, how they work and how they could improve.
Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship run by tyrants who order members of their own family kidnapped abroad, journalists murdered then cut up their bodies to hide the crime, and imprison then extort leading businessmen to consolidate power and money in their hands. They have far more in common with Putin’s Russia than the US.
The US is a long way from that, whatever its flaws (and there are many flaws, chief amongst them making alliances with brutal dictators like the Saudis).
Speaking of due process, 97% of criminal cases don't actually go to trial in the US and are instead settled with plea deals [0].
The sentencing is so harsh for anyone demanding trial and losing that it's mostly a paper right at this time. It does give people the warm fuzzy feeling of justice and correctness though.
If you're used to the EU justice or penal systems (very far from perfect and sometimes not even good, mind you), looking at the US systems must feel similar to a US citizen looking at SA justice - very lopsided, barbaric or cruel, disproportionate, and nothing close to fair.
In Saudi Arabia's case, the legal system does appear to be arbitrary.
> The primary source of law is the Islamic Sharia derived from the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the traditions of the Prophet). Saudi Arabia is unique among modern Muslim states in that Sharia is not codified and there is no system of judicial precedent, giving judges the power to use independent legal reasoning to make a decision. Saudi judges tend to follow the principles of the Hanbali school of jurisprudence (fiqh) found in pre-modern texts and noted for its literalist interpretation of the Qur'an and hadith.
> Because the judge is empowered to disregard previous judgments (either his own or of other judges) and may apply his personal interpretation of Sharia to any particular case, divergent judgments arise even in apparently identical cases, making predictability of legal interpretation difficult.
What is the point of thinking this way? My due process could be if your name starts with an F, you get beheaded, otherwise you get a pardon. That's stupid, and not deserving of respect. Due process based on religion ending in BEHEADING is likewise stupid. The only way we improve is if some du process is more deserving of respect than others...
The same question could be asked of the person that first mentioned due process.
But the point is that many people respect the system they are raised under, and are aware of others systems. Its not a comparison of "the US to Saudi Arabia" its an acknowledgment of the nation state reality.
> The similarities are greater than the dissimilarities.
Sometimes cultural relativism gets it right and opens our eyes to our own inadequacies, but this isn’t one of those times. Saudi justice is light-years (or maybe centuries) from US justice.
Whew ... there's dozens of convicts on the death row that are presumably innocent. Even if some of them get acquitted at some point, having spent 20 years of your life behind bars not knowing whether the state is going to murder you for something you didn't do is not that far from barbaric.
So ... like another guy said, you're just accustomed to the set of rules of the environment where you belong, in the same way as a Saudi could think of executions as a regular thing (bc, well... they are).
Ehmmm yes there is criticism of the death penalt in the us .... So what has this to do with Saudi arabia??? And maybe the people critizing the death penalty in saudi arabia are NOT the same people who engage in keeping the death penalty in the us???
Imagine someone beating you to death and the only reactions of your souroundings would be „ hey someone else is also doing this“ thats no point and no help at all
The goal of this post isn't to distribute actionable advice to those directly affected by the event. The odds that they're reading a US tech forum are slim.
Most of us here are looking to better understand what's going on in the world when we read articles like this, and the additional context OP shared is helpful to do so
When I first saw that 81 number, I thought to myself "Wow, I can't imagine what it must be like to live in such a repressive regime".
When I see comments comparing this to capital punishment and the war on terror from the US, it made me realize that I do actually live in a country that does similar things sometimes
Ok that I do understand. Still a bit confused. I thought it was common knowledge that you are living in blood thirsty country thats killing people without remorse :)
Whataboutism is simply an excuse for maintaining the status quo. Since there is not, nor will there ever be, a perfect country everyone should bite their tongue, and tacitly support the worst behaviors.
It’s a trash take, put out by people that would rather center on their own preconceptions rather than actually minimizing harms in the world.
In any comparison of two countries (or people) like this, there are two conflicting issues to keep in mind at the same time: 1) As you point out, no one is perfect, and any honest look at ourselves or the groups we're a part of will show us things we feel ashamed of. 2) Because of that, "whataboutism" is a very effective derailing tactic that anyone can use to dismiss almost any criticism.
Given that "no one should ever criticize anyone for anything" isn't what any of us wants, we need some norms and limits around whataboutism to keep it productive. I'm not sure what those should be though, and at the end of the day probably some amount of trust and good faith is required.
Because we should be better. Like, you shouldn't interpret this as "whataboutism". It's just saying let's fix our own shit first. We have it bad. Probably one of the worst in the world when looking at the "justice" system as a whole.
By "shit together" you mean dependent on Russia for energy?
> Germany imports more than half of its energy . The country largely imports its oil from Russia, Norway and the United Kingdom. Germany is also the world's largest importer of natural gas. The largest gas imports come from the Netherlands, Norway, and Russia via the Nord Stream.
Because it doesn't work. I've lived in Iran. There is a heavy amount of "were as good as your beloved America" or "were not a bad as them".
Also, people would care more if these things were reflected in our cultural exports of movies, internet, etc etc.
So yes. You're right. We are global citizens. However some of us have a lot more power than others. Right now that's America and we need to use our power to send the right message to the world.
SA in Yemen and Russia in Ukraine are both horrible, and the US needs to not rely on either country. Unfortunately, we are years away from that - decades maybe, and attempts to move to green / renewable energy within the US are too few and too slow to speed that up. I hope that changes soon.
If we had the refineries for it, sure. With the EPA and Democratic party, building enough refinery capacity is a fantasy.
As it is, we'll need to settle for exporting what we can't use very well and importing what we can make better use of, until we have sufficient battery capacity tied to grids and EVs are plentiful and cheap.
The US has zero need for such foreign oil right now with imports and exports very close to balancing out since 2020. However, we are connected to the global oil market so our prices rise and fall with global prices.
We are also projected to be a met importer soon from what I have heard. Keystone wasnt the only project that got binned in Biden's early days.
That said, without an absurdly massive investment in refineries, we would still be exporting a lot of it and importing much of what we actually refined.
That was my point, why be so barbaric even in the method of execution, when we created a cleaner solution for this back in the day of the horse and buggy?
-While true, it would presumably be even better to not be executed in the first place - whether the execution takes place in Saudi Arabia, the US or any of the handful of countries still having the death penalty on its books.
There are worst things than death, and everyone should consider what the alternative here is. I am absolutely against execution, but I also have zero agency over what Saudi Arabia is going to do to its prisoners, and when I consider the alternative, this is to me the preferable outcome.
I think being beheaded at least is an interesting way to die for those who are scientifically curious. Injections just put you to sleep and other methods like being shot or electrocuted might be too painful to make observations.
Do we know anything about whether severing the spine at the neck would be painful or not? I sometimes wonder if they experience intense pain in those final seconds.
Inspired by a quote from MBS in the article, I search for Qaran and death penalty and found this on Wikipedia:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter, Except for those who return repenting before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
— Qur'an, Sura 5, ayat 33 & 34[8]
That's incredibly vague and appears to be made for abuse of interpretation.
Note: I believe that everybody is entitled to their own relationship with "God" however that may be (I'm an atheist), but these religions want to extend their laws on everybody else -- and that's a serious problem that needs to be addressed by society.
I believe they are referring to qisas, which is a form of retaliation in kind. It's pretty explicit that you can kill a murderer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas
The MBS quote says they got rid of every other form of the death penalty, but they couldn't get rid of this one clearly mentioned in the Qur'an. And the only crime the article says these executions were for was murder. So I'm going to guess MBS was talking about qisas.
Laws there are, to put it politely, archaic. It should be acceptable to discuss the law in a hacker sense -- what are the rules, how are they broken, what are the security concerns etc. I've no interest in diminishing other cultures, but any law of any land is ripe for review.
In this situation, we collectively look the other way because oil.
Yeah, but when we're discussing a quote he made he's knd of the only authority.
I don't get your argument. "MBS said x, he was probably talking about this vague passage." "No, he was probably talking about this clear one." "Yeah but he's the worst so who cares what he's talking about." OK? I wasn't defending the guy.
Sorry, there was no intent to make it sound like you were defending him. He is literally the authority in this case but it doesn't make his statements accurate.
> "Yeah but he's the worst so who cares what he's talking about."
It's not that he's horrible, its that he is incentivized to misrepresent things if it makes him look better. It's a natural assumption with any person in power.
It really depends on ones interpretation, and that definitely shouldn't be derived by a monarch.
Islam used to have a very solid legal system but it has not developed past the late Khilafa ages.
One you have a religious manuscript, and submissive population, you can pull off whatever shit you want and you can always find an obscure religious passage to support your claim. MBS is such a disgrace for all humanity, not just Islam, and I dare wish to see Hijaz is outside the control of Aal-Saaud.
(I get that in Paul Graham's original intent for HN there's no religion, and the following is also very intense, but now that we're talking about religion and death I feel right about this.)
Well what constitutes war against GOD, referred to as "Allah" here, and Mohammed (my choice of words reflect that I consider him a real prophet, but specific to Islam, not Christianity, it's subjective like fame) is not elaborated on, probably in another section it goes into detail, and plus you have to use this old, outdated tech that isn't compatible with anything these days, "judgment." Nobody talks about it much anymore.
As for the specific punishments for that harm, it's not vague at all. Execution, OK so in Arabia that means you put their neck on a chopping block, made of wood for the same reason as a kitchen cutting board, a man with a mask whose job title is "executioner" walks up with an axe I think it is, I don't know I haven't watched them live but I know in Saudi Arabia it happens in the public square, some same place every time, everyone can go watch; the masked man lifts his axe, well from that point it's too graphic even textually for HN. Then crucifixion, it's the destiny of Christ, for good reason because that was the most feared form of torture and death in the Roman Empire. Then finally, the other punishments are lighter, and the opposite-sides rule for severing hands and feet is a way to be merciful so the punished blasphemer can walk on crutches at very least, not be absolutely crippled. Exile sounds light but it's rough, most people end up at the bottom of society if they're exiled, second class citizens and often slaves. Obviously much better though. So that's where judgment comes in, this isn't digital, it's much more consuetudinary. The judge can decide what the punishment will be commensurately with the unique nuance of the transgression.
> opposite-sides rule for severing hands and feet is a way to be merciful so the punished blasphemer can walk on crutches at very least
I didn't see any "/s" in your post so I'm somewhat confused.
Discussion of religion gets dangerous because it seems to morph into attacks. I've no interest in that but I do in laws in that name because then it's literally my (and everybody else's) business.
The key issue is melding of Church and State -- not a good idea according to the founders of the United States. Giving the Church the power of the State is a recipe for tyranny.
While it doesn't get enough attention, there's an active effort for the United States to do this very thing. We need to have civil dialog for the repudiation of that but avoid framing it in an attack on religion itself.
If you read this and disagree, go ahead and down-vote this but please explain why so perhaps we can someday find agreement.
This is our staunch "ally" in the Middle East (along with Israel of course). Saudi Arabia is presently conducting a genocide in Yemen with US-manufactured and supplied weapons. Their autocratic leader approved the operation to kill a Saudi-citizen and US resident journalist in Turkey. It also funds madrasses that promote extremism because it deflects away the attention of their general populace from the unpopular monarchy to the West in general and the United States in particular.
Pervasive use of the death penalty is obviously an issue but far from their biggest sin. Execution as a form of punishment is pretty much completely pointless.
You’re promoting anarchy as a way to create a just society. Exactly whose shit will you burn down? What if someone burns your shit down in protest? What if it’s something you spent a lifetime building? What if your children are inside the shit someone chose to burn down? Ever actually seen a violent revolution or been the victim of one? Russia is burning shit down right now. You good with that?
> Once we fix it here we can demand other countries follow suit.
So wait until our society is perfect before we have the right to express an opinion on things like mass executions. While we burn shit down. Got it.
The burn shit down is if the state is actively blocking progress. From the ashes rises anew.
Sometimes the way to fix things is to fundamentally and radically reject them and fight them. Historically, this is the only thing that has brought change. I hope we don't have to go there, but power does not want to give up power.
With that attitude barely anybody in the world would have any right to criticize what Saudi Arabia is doing. The worst examples in Western Europe (and other developed countries) might not be as egregious as in the US but their justice systems have their fair share of issues. What you're saying basically that Americans during WW2 shouldn't have had the right to criticize the Holocaust because of Jim Crow and sending Japanese to concentration camps... All three things are terrible but one is on an altogether different level of evilness (just like what's happening now).
This isn't saying we don't have a right to criticize them. Its saying if you're criticizing them and you're American, please double that anger and add a new recipient to it. The recipient being your country.
Not I'm not American, nor do I live there. "Double the anger" about what's happening in the US still seems like still at least few times less anger than I think it would be fair to direct towards Saudi Arabia.
This isn’t a binary thing where you have to have a perfect justice system to criticize any other system especially like Saudi where they are executing convicts who are bloggers and Shia and political enemies.
I just want to point out there are several aspects to punishment. We often speak of rehabilitation and deterrence, but there is also denunciation, incapacitation, and retribution (the most maligned of the five.)
Execution isn't very good at deterrence and obviously is antithetical to rehabilitation. However execution happens to be exceptionally effective at incapacitation; a criminal cannot re-offend if he's dead. And of course, much of the public support for execution is also motivated by retribution.
On the topic of retribution, I want to be clear that I don't support the death penalty, but nevertheless I think a bit of retribution in the justice system plays a roll in suppressing vigilantism. If the government doesn't pay at least a little lip service to retribution, I think you'll have more people taking matters into their own hands.
Yup. In the extreme e.g. someone kills 3 of my family members and only gets a year in prison? Maybe I should just kill them myself and get 6 months in prison.
At least in the US, retribution isn't officially part of the criminal justice system. You see why it's problematic when you look at how it creeps into the system anyway. The death penalty is disproportionately applied to minories and exoneration of death row inmates by new DNA evidence also disproportionately skews towards minorities (meaning they were false convictions to begin with).
Whether it's officially part of the system or not, the public's desire to see retribution is definitely on the minds of American legislators when they write laws. Thirst for retribution also plays a roll in the public tolerating abusive police and poor conditions in prisons (which are arguably manifestations of vigilantism.)
But yes, I oppose the death penalty, particularly in America, because I don't trust the government to get it right.
Incapacitation isn't synonymous with execution. Imprisonment is a weaker form of incapacitation without that finality. A murderer locked up in prison can't harm the general public (though other prisoners and prison staff may still be at risk.)
> It also publicly nailed the severed body and head of a convicted extremist to a pole as a warning to others. Such crucifixions after execution, while rare, do occur in the kingdom.
Friendly reminder that the primary distinction between groups in that region is whether you have a nation state already, or merely aspire to have one.
We demonize the people that merely aspire to have one, and their practices like the beheadings. It is useful to acknowledge that they are the same practices of the ones that achieve sovereign immunity. It usually comes down to the underlining belief system, as they overlap with a nearby sovereign party. Western media isn't that discerning, but it could be.
Raif Badawi is a blogger who was charged of "insulting Islam through electronic channels". He was sentenced of seven years in prison, torture and 600 lashes.
Of course no human being could take 600 lashes in one go, they just gave him the first 50 and dragged him back to jail to wait to be able to carry out the rest of the sentence. Due to poor health condition, they were never able to.
Let it be a good reminder of how archaic and retrograde the justice system is in Saudi Arabia.
Making Saudi Arabia look like the sole aggressor is incredibly dishonest after the numerous crimes Iran and its allies have openly been committing against sunnis. This issue is not as one-sided as the article tries to make it out to be. The Iranian regime is one of the biggest factors in the destabilisation of the Middle East.
It’s worth mentioning that shiites have been, and still are killing sunnis in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Lebanon, in massive numbers. Kids are not spared here.
Seeing all the death and destruction committed by the shiites, Iran and its allies like Russia in the Middle East, I’ve learnt to take what often appears to be pro-Iranian propaganda against Saudi Arabia with a grain of salt, and you should too. There is a lot to say about what Iran alone does to its sunni population.
This issue requires us to look at it from a nuanced perspective lest we do many victims in these countries injustice.
Edit: Removed an example of oppression which I unfortunately have no reference for anymore. If you want to see what’s going on, material is readily available on the internet. Search for example for “Hezbola”.
> I’ve personally seen a video of a shiite menacingly threatening a couple of Syrian refugee kids with a knife in Lebanon. Kids are not spared here.
Syrians can be Shiites too .. and how do you know the threats were not directed at them for being, say, foreigners, which is unfortunately a common reaction to refugees around the world.
But for this specific example, that’s all I have from memory, the details are lost together with the video. Many of these disappear from Youtube because of Youtube’s strange ToS and flagging system. Facebook and Twitter also deleted a lot of documentation of the war.
In any case, there are still plenty of material out there. I’m not saying anything that’s not already well-established, that there is plenty of oppression against sunnis by the shia. Look at the Syrian regime, Irans involvment in various war-torn countries, the terror-organization Hezbola, shia militias in Iraq. The evidence is already out. Denying this is more absurd than denying Russias aggression against Ukraine, if we judge by the amount of testimonies and footage there is out there, and for how long the conflict has been going on.
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[ 7.2 ms ] story [ 205 ms ] threadhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_Un...
That isn't to say the US is better, worse, or just as bad. Just something to compare it to.
Edit much later: you know what, I was wrong to comment this on its own. There's a lot more nuance to this and it's not a fair comparison at all. Those that called me out on this are in the right.
> The US has killed thousands of “militants” (and many people who were certainly innocent) with drone strikes in places where we’re not engaged in active conflict and without due process.
If you want to call those "war casualties", then those war casualties look a whole lot like executions.
And if they weren't war casualties on account of not being in a war zone, then they are simply executions.
But that might be tainted by my personal values. I personally value a legal system that refrains from the potential of killing an innocent person.
[0]: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence/execute...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country#...
The list is growing at a rate of about 1 country per year, which, if continued, would mean that the 21st century would be the last in which countries formally kill their own citizens.
It is mere coincidence that you respect one country's due process and don't respect another country's due process.
Most places have non-arbitrary paths to punishment or any state actions, codified somewhere. And our media and pop culture just doesn't acknowledge that.
The similarities are greater than the dissimilarities.
Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship run by tyrants who order members of their own family kidnapped abroad, journalists murdered then cut up their bodies to hide the crime, and imprison then extort leading businessmen to consolidate power and money in their hands. They have far more in common with Putin’s Russia than the US.
The US is a long way from that, whatever its flaws (and there are many flaws, chief amongst them making alliances with brutal dictators like the Saudis).
Extraordinary rendition? Foreign policy in most places is different from domestic policy.
The similarities are greater than the dissimilarities.
The sentencing is so harsh for anyone demanding trial and losing that it's mostly a paper right at this time. It does give people the warm fuzzy feeling of justice and correctness though.
If you're used to the EU justice or penal systems (very far from perfect and sometimes not even good, mind you), looking at the US systems must feel similar to a US citizen looking at SA justice - very lopsided, barbaric or cruel, disproportionate, and nothing close to fair.
[0] https://innocenceproject.org/guilty-pleas-on-the-rise-crimin...
> The primary source of law is the Islamic Sharia derived from the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the traditions of the Prophet). Saudi Arabia is unique among modern Muslim states in that Sharia is not codified and there is no system of judicial precedent, giving judges the power to use independent legal reasoning to make a decision. Saudi judges tend to follow the principles of the Hanbali school of jurisprudence (fiqh) found in pre-modern texts and noted for its literalist interpretation of the Qur'an and hadith.
> Because the judge is empowered to disregard previous judgments (either his own or of other judges) and may apply his personal interpretation of Sharia to any particular case, divergent judgments arise even in apparently identical cases, making predictability of legal interpretation difficult.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Legal_system
Welp... I guess Saudi Arabia is off my bucket list
But the point is that many people respect the system they are raised under, and are aware of others systems. Its not a comparison of "the US to Saudi Arabia" its an acknowledgment of the nation state reality.
Sometimes cultural relativism gets it right and opens our eyes to our own inadequacies, but this isn’t one of those times. Saudi justice is light-years (or maybe centuries) from US justice.
Whew ... there's dozens of convicts on the death row that are presumably innocent. Even if some of them get acquitted at some point, having spent 20 years of your life behind bars not knowing whether the state is going to murder you for something you didn't do is not that far from barbaric.
So ... like another guy said, you're just accustomed to the set of rules of the environment where you belong, in the same way as a Saudi could think of executions as a regular thing (bc, well... they are).
nearly all of us here on this forum would expect to get due process, but the due process for the people who wind up on death row is often a joke.
Most of us here are looking to better understand what's going on in the world when we read articles like this, and the additional context OP shared is helpful to do so
I cant imagine people going „ I cant grasp whats going on in saudi arabia …. HOLD ON the usa is also killing people … now I understand „
When I see comments comparing this to capital punishment and the war on terror from the US, it made me realize that I do actually live in a country that does similar things sometimes
It’s a trash take, put out by people that would rather center on their own preconceptions rather than actually minimizing harms in the world.
Nope. It is a request for appropriate punishment for all perpetrators. And if one say fuck you cause I got the biggest dick it is an encouragement.
Given that "no one should ever criticize anyone for anything" isn't what any of us wants, we need some norms and limits around whataboutism to keep it productive. I'm not sure what those should be though, and at the end of the day probably some amount of trust and good faith is required.
> Germany imports more than half of its energy . The country largely imports its oil from Russia, Norway and the United Kingdom. Germany is also the world's largest importer of natural gas. The largest gas imports come from the Netherlands, Norway, and Russia via the Nord Stream.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany
Please, what is the logic in this? Why on earth would anyone wait for the US to improve before demanding the same of others?
And, that the American audience of HN should point this anger towards America so we can finally fix this.
Why wait for America to change before demanding better of everyone?
We're all global citizens now. Act like it.
Also, people would care more if these things were reflected in our cultural exports of movies, internet, etc etc.
So yes. You're right. We are global citizens. However some of us have a lot more power than others. Right now that's America and we need to use our power to send the right message to the world.
For the self and allies there is only: - Rule of law only until it comes in the way of Self interest -- in contention, self interest always trumps.
With this rule-set a lot of things make sense.
As it is, we'll need to settle for exporting what we can't use very well and importing what we can make better use of, until we have sufficient battery capacity tied to grids and EVs are plentiful and cheap.
That said, without an absurdly massive investment in refineries, we would still be exporting a lot of it and importing much of what we actually refined.
Feds actively restrict the domestic energy industry which increases demand for Saudi energy. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing...
No real surprise, as Biden promised to restrict USA energy while campaigning. https://joebiden.com/9-key-elements-of-joe-bidens-plan-for-a...
Multiple cuts would be horrific.
One could argue this is true for most (if not all) religious texts
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-execution-apostasy/...
Laws there are, to put it politely, archaic. It should be acceptable to discuss the law in a hacker sense -- what are the rules, how are they broken, what are the security concerns etc. I've no interest in diminishing other cultures, but any law of any land is ripe for review.
In this situation, we collectively look the other way because oil.
Yeah, but when we're discussing a quote he made he's knd of the only authority.
I don't get your argument. "MBS said x, he was probably talking about this vague passage." "No, he was probably talking about this clear one." "Yeah but he's the worst so who cares what he's talking about." OK? I wasn't defending the guy.
> "Yeah but he's the worst so who cares what he's talking about."
It's not that he's horrible, its that he is incentivized to misrepresent things if it makes him look better. It's a natural assumption with any person in power.
Islam used to have a very solid legal system but it has not developed past the late Khilafa ages.
One you have a religious manuscript, and submissive population, you can pull off whatever shit you want and you can always find an obscure religious passage to support your claim. MBS is such a disgrace for all humanity, not just Islam, and I dare wish to see Hijaz is outside the control of Aal-Saaud.
Well what constitutes war against GOD, referred to as "Allah" here, and Mohammed (my choice of words reflect that I consider him a real prophet, but specific to Islam, not Christianity, it's subjective like fame) is not elaborated on, probably in another section it goes into detail, and plus you have to use this old, outdated tech that isn't compatible with anything these days, "judgment." Nobody talks about it much anymore.
As for the specific punishments for that harm, it's not vague at all. Execution, OK so in Arabia that means you put their neck on a chopping block, made of wood for the same reason as a kitchen cutting board, a man with a mask whose job title is "executioner" walks up with an axe I think it is, I don't know I haven't watched them live but I know in Saudi Arabia it happens in the public square, some same place every time, everyone can go watch; the masked man lifts his axe, well from that point it's too graphic even textually for HN. Then crucifixion, it's the destiny of Christ, for good reason because that was the most feared form of torture and death in the Roman Empire. Then finally, the other punishments are lighter, and the opposite-sides rule for severing hands and feet is a way to be merciful so the punished blasphemer can walk on crutches at very least, not be absolutely crippled. Exile sounds light but it's rough, most people end up at the bottom of society if they're exiled, second class citizens and often slaves. Obviously much better though. So that's where judgment comes in, this isn't digital, it's much more consuetudinary. The judge can decide what the punishment will be commensurately with the unique nuance of the transgression.
I hope that clarifies the vagueness.
I didn't see any "/s" in your post so I'm somewhat confused.
Discussion of religion gets dangerous because it seems to morph into attacks. I've no interest in that but I do in laws in that name because then it's literally my (and everybody else's) business.
The key issue is melding of Church and State -- not a good idea according to the founders of the United States. Giving the Church the power of the State is a recipe for tyranny.
While it doesn't get enough attention, there's an active effort for the United States to do this very thing. We need to have civil dialog for the repudiation of that but avoid framing it in an attack on religion itself.
If you read this and disagree, go ahead and down-vote this but please explain why so perhaps we can someday find agreement.
Pervasive use of the death penalty is obviously an issue but far from their biggest sin. Execution as a form of punishment is pretty much completely pointless.
Or you can call out both. It's not as if they are remotely dependent on each other, are they?
Legitmately most Americans don't realize what power they hold over the world.
I’m an American who has lived and worked outside the US for most of my adult life. Trust me when I say this is not lost on me.
I still believe that we can encourage every to be better.
You’re promoting anarchy as a way to create a just society. Exactly whose shit will you burn down? What if someone burns your shit down in protest? What if it’s something you spent a lifetime building? What if your children are inside the shit someone chose to burn down? Ever actually seen a violent revolution or been the victim of one? Russia is burning shit down right now. You good with that?
> Once we fix it here we can demand other countries follow suit.
So wait until our society is perfect before we have the right to express an opinion on things like mass executions. While we burn shit down. Got it.
Sometimes the way to fix things is to fundamentally and radically reject them and fight them. Historically, this is the only thing that has brought change. I hope we don't have to go there, but power does not want to give up power.
No real surprise, as Biden promised to restrict USA energy while campaigning. https://joebiden.com/9-key-elements-of-joe-bidens-plan-for-a...
Execution isn't very good at deterrence and obviously is antithetical to rehabilitation. However execution happens to be exceptionally effective at incapacitation; a criminal cannot re-offend if he's dead. And of course, much of the public support for execution is also motivated by retribution.
On the topic of retribution, I want to be clear that I don't support the death penalty, but nevertheless I think a bit of retribution in the justice system plays a roll in suppressing vigilantism. If the government doesn't pay at least a little lip service to retribution, I think you'll have more people taking matters into their own hands.
But yes, I oppose the death penalty, particularly in America, because I don't trust the government to get it right.
Innocent people have been put to death before.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohamme...
Friendly reminder that the primary distinction between groups in that region is whether you have a nation state already, or merely aspire to have one.
We demonize the people that merely aspire to have one, and their practices like the beheadings. It is useful to acknowledge that they are the same practices of the ones that achieve sovereign immunity. It usually comes down to the underlining belief system, as they overlap with a nearby sovereign party. Western media isn't that discerning, but it could be.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60714086
Raif Badawi is a blogger who was charged of "insulting Islam through electronic channels". He was sentenced of seven years in prison, torture and 600 lashes.
Of course no human being could take 600 lashes in one go, they just gave him the first 50 and dragged him back to jail to wait to be able to carry out the rest of the sentence. Due to poor health condition, they were never able to.
Let it be a good reminder of how archaic and retrograde the justice system is in Saudi Arabia.
It’s worth mentioning that shiites have been, and still are killing sunnis in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Lebanon, in massive numbers. Kids are not spared here.
Seeing all the death and destruction committed by the shiites, Iran and its allies like Russia in the Middle East, I’ve learnt to take what often appears to be pro-Iranian propaganda against Saudi Arabia with a grain of salt, and you should too. There is a lot to say about what Iran alone does to its sunni population.
This issue requires us to look at it from a nuanced perspective lest we do many victims in these countries injustice.
Edit: Removed an example of oppression which I unfortunately have no reference for anymore. If you want to see what’s going on, material is readily available on the internet. Search for example for “Hezbola”.
Syrians can be Shiites too .. and how do you know the threats were not directed at them for being, say, foreigners, which is unfortunately a common reaction to refugees around the world.
But for this specific example, that’s all I have from memory, the details are lost together with the video. Many of these disappear from Youtube because of Youtube’s strange ToS and flagging system. Facebook and Twitter also deleted a lot of documentation of the war.
In any case, there are still plenty of material out there. I’m not saying anything that’s not already well-established, that there is plenty of oppression against sunnis by the shia. Look at the Syrian regime, Irans involvment in various war-torn countries, the terror-organization Hezbola, shia militias in Iraq. The evidence is already out. Denying this is more absurd than denying Russias aggression against Ukraine, if we judge by the amount of testimonies and footage there is out there, and for how long the conflict has been going on.