The Express is an unhinged xenophobic right wing "newspaper" specialising in othering. Just do a google search for "uk express news paper front covers".
See also the Daily Mail its partner in crime in nastyness.
As much as I am revolted by Russian invasion and the apparent broad support from Russians, the bravery of those who oppose it publicly is real and enormous.
And let me tell you, Russian prisons are pure hell. Check out the documentary on Black Dolphin. That is one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever seen.
Even when he is, someone from his inner circle will take his place, and his first decision will be further tightening the police state to avoid the destiny of his predecessor. I'm not sure I can name a single dictatorship that's suddenly turned free.
Yeah. Its exactly like the sort of propaganda in Russia.
Impressive though, how "the West" does all that project management and is capable of coordinating all their lies in so many different languages across so many different cultures and so many different ideologies and religions.
The trap, like always, is in the premise. This isn't Russia vs the West. Like its two superpowers battling.
This is an authoritarian hierarchical regime vs Ukraine. That same regime vs Poland. That same regime vs Finland. The same regime vs "empty sign holders".
The West is not some kind of homogenous blob. The few times all media across all these countries say the same thing, is when the other side is lying pants-on-fire.
They are literally suggesting Greece, Turkey, Germany and Poland are conspiring and coordinating to harm a hasbeen superpower with an economy the size of a potato of which half is energy exports. And the little bit of money they do make is then spend on the military, but due to the corruption, all ends up in apartments in London and yachts in Italy.
At this point, it's so much obfuscation and noise that it's hard to know where the signal is.
The Russians constantly employ disinformation -- a term that means lying -- to get their way. The level of chutzpah when they accuse Ukraine of being a neo-Nazi country, and so on and so on...
> Billionaire Elon Musk has challenged Russian President Vladimir Putin to “single combat”, with the “stakes” being Ukraine.
> With Mr Putin’s name written in Russian and Ukraine written in Ukrainian, the Tesla chief executive tweeted: “I hereby challenge (Vladimir Putin) to single combat.
This takes no less courage than what Edward Snowden or Julian Assange did - the scale of actions may be different, but the amount of danger they put themselves into, in order to do what they believe is the right thing, is absolutely admirable.
Assange likely started with pure motives, but became compromised as WL ran out of money. He (claimed he) was about to release a pile of intelligence against the Russian govt & oligarchy, then never did, and was soon doing spots on RU.
The vast bulk of Snowden's pilfered haul had nothing to do with his stated aims, and definitely put agents in danger. And of course he ended up there. Notice he's not said a word since the RUS invasion of Ukraine. He hasn't got enough courage to be worthy to lick clean the soles of Marina Ovsyannikova's shoes.
Such a terrible take. Wikileaks did leak Russian intelligence files. The argument that he hasn't leaked the same amount hinges on the assumption that he somehow has access to everything, which is of course nonsense.
Snowden, I think, somewhat blinded by the overwhelming US propaganda machine and the fact that he's stuck in Russia, made an honest mistake. He admitted as much on his Twitter. Nobody's perfect, that doesn't mean they're working for Putin.
I'm sure Wikileaks started out with a genuine idealistic vision. But I think it's hard to deny that after a while it turned into a FSB puppet."Spy Files Russia" looks more like a planted leak to divert accusations. If I remember correctly all of the information was already out before the leak.
No, it is an entirely accurate take, and excessively kind to them, if anything. And what Snowden did or where he ended up have exactly zero to do with teh "US Propaganda machine"
For reference on what such a machine actually looks like, go look at Russian media this last two weeks.
Read what people who were actually in the intelligence agencies said; this [0][1]should have enough details and links to start you off.
You might also note that while the progressive Barack Obama had no problem pardoning Manning, he did no such thing for Snowdon. This was after the US House Intelligence Committee — not intelligence agency people, and both parties — UNANIMOUSLY voted to approve a report on Edward Snowden finding that he "did tremendous damage" to U.S. national security [2].
Perhaps you can explain how the whole airport fiasco and taking on Snowdon could have happened without Putin's direct approval - and why he'd do such a thing if it is "only" US civil rights issues at stake from Snowdon's theft.
Perhaps you can also explain how among the million+ documents Snowdon stole, only a few actually have anything to do with the headlines touting the civil liberty cause - e.g., exposing details of Israel’s killing of senior WMD proliferators in Syria [3]. Seriously, how does that improve anything in the US?
If you actually bother to look, without the hero-worshipping glasses and Qanon-level suspicion of anything related to government, you find that his massive story is a fraud.
Seriously, stop being fooled. I was similarly fooled, until I started trying to find actual experts on what had happened, and not just going along with the utter Kremlin line pushed out by popular trolls like Greenwald, and picked up and repeated uncritically.
I used to be fan of Snowden and Assange. Lately I've concluded their motives were not 'for the greater good' as they initially made out.
As another poster mentioned, they may have started that way but they became compromised and their motives now are not so clear. Self interest has become more prominent in their decisions and perhaps it was always that way.
I generally feel the same, but I am also disappointed with the response from the US government in a lot of ways. All that said, when this all kicked off I was checking in on Snowden [0] to see if he was parroting Russian propaganda, which he was, in a sense, at first (as many where - there won't be a war, there won't be an invasion).
His last tweet hit me pretty hard, and I started worrying about his general safety after that. I don't wish being in an authoritarian state as a foreigner during a massive external and internal conflict and I'm very worried for his safety (and I mean that both in and outside of Russia)
"I'm not suspended from the ceiling above a barrel of acid by a rope that burns a little faster every time I tweet, you concern-trolling ghouls. I've just lost any confidence I had that sharing my thinking on this particular topic continues to be useful, because I called it wrong."
> Lately I've concluded their motives were not 'for the greater good' as they initially made out.
I'd be curious to know what makes you say that, but beyond that, even the people here who believe their intent was not so pure cannot deny that the actual effect of the Snowden revelations has been a widely increased awareness about privacy, and much increased legitimacy for the products and ideas that attempt to improve the privacy situation for the average user (not sure if Assange/WikiLeaks revelations have had any material effect apart from shock at the scale of corruption being even beyond what people assumed).
Far from the "Snowden revelations changed nothing" cry of despair that was popular for a while, it's becoming clear that they changed the conversation around privacy from hypothetical situations from tinfoil hatters, to something everyone can and does talk about.
My previous comment was unpopular and I'm sure this will be also.
I don't doubt the leaks from Snowden increased awareness of privacy.
Snowdens early justification statements were "I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, Internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building. "
He was either a pawn or naive. Perhaps at the time we all were.
Snowden then went to China and then Russia. These are hardly the bastion of human rights, privacy and freedom that he supposedly fought for.
At some point we have to admit that all countries of any significance likely have intelligence and monitoring programmes. Maybe (in countries with some semblance of freedom) these are there to protect us from those countries that work against those same principles Snowden claimed to support.
“If you think that we will stop in #Ukraine, you are deeply mistaken, this is just an intermediate stage” says the main Kremlin’s propagandist, Vladimir Solovyev
Imagine if someone came on TV like this during the second gulf war and said "They're lying to you about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" Would anyone even care? Some cynical people at the time would say, "sure they're lying." Lots of people would be like, "She's totally brainwashed, blah, blah." The whole thing would then be forgotten in two days and the war would go on as usual.
In the UK I don't recall the public truly believing that Iraq actually had "weapons of mass destruction". The press had been calling the intelligence report the "Dodgy Dossier" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Dossier and I recall wide doubt on the famous phrasing of weapons being "launched within 45 minutes" https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/05/iraq.iraq1 which it turns out referred to... conventional battle munitions like mortars.
My recollection as an average UK member of the public was the news said 'allegations of WMDs' so I thought well maybe, then 'Hans Blix is investigating' so I thought fair enough and then 'UK and US forces have invaded without waiting for Blix'. So yeah not much you could do about it. It's probably similar for the Russian public.
90% of 140 millions of inhabitants is certainly a big number. Your example is quite extreme and might reflect that the country is completely out of context.
This is such a false analogy. I heard hundreds of dissenting voices on the streets and in the media all over the world (and in the US) during the Iraqi war, the attack on Serbia, the attack on Libya.
That's moving the goalposts. The inference made by narrator was that the vast majority of Americans supported the Iraq war and any resistance to it was incidental, dismissed and quickly forgotten, that something like the protest incident in OP couldn't happen in the US.
That plays easily into the common narrative of Americans being bloodthirsty or brainwashed by their media but it simply isn't correct. There definitely was a period after 9/11 when any criticism of the government or war against Afghanistan and Iraq was seen as unpatriotic, the Dixie Chicks were cancelled, French fries became Freedom fries, and propaganda like Courtesy of the Red White and Blue became hits. But the US is more complex than many people give it credit for, and there were also protests in the streets and criticism within the media, even people going to Iraq to serve as human shields[0] against their own military.
Moreover, Ukraine did not invade its neighbors decades ago. It gave up wmds rather than accumulate them. Saddam did have and use wmds, and professed to seeking more. Dissenting voices had to ask us to trust Saddam Hussein.
I had a somewhat utopian thought today to prevent the next Ukraine invasion. Here are the components:
1. I have heard many stories online, and even in-person, of people calling home to Russia and their families not believing the facts of the war in Ukraine.
2. One of the bigger sub-stories from the war in Ukraine is the availability of commercial satellite imagery.
Problem: Information asymmetry can lead to state sponsored mass murder.
Solution: Require universal access to 24hr-old global imaging to all citizens, if your country wants to be part of the global economic system.
I skipped over many problems to avoid a wall of text. I look forward to hearing why this idea could never work.
Until very recently Russians were not blocked from the global information. It was gradually shut down on TV, but people can still read what the rest of the world thinks on the internet, including in Russian language. Yet most people resist exposure to anything conflicting the state's point of view.
I personally thought that Russia proved that the total mind control is possible without cutting off alternative points of view and 1984 is exaggeration, but apparently it's not enough in the time of crisis like invasion of Ukraine. Now they have to introduce 15-year prison sentences for telling that the "sky is blue" metaphorically speaking.
In dictatorship like russia, it is hard to believe that you can easily interrupt a live stream by standing behind a news anchor and nobody stops you (do not forget that this is the main TV channel in russia)
Secondly, the majority of people that work on TV say that live news is not really live, there is always a slight delay to avoid anything unexpected going live (but not in this case). Thirdly, 280$ fine while others facing 15 years in jail?
Seems like yet another masquerade created by Russian propaganda.
We will never know for sure.
My guess is that either distract west media from what is happening in Ukraine at this very moment (russian solders, not Putin, using heavy artillery are bombing the cities and killing civilians) and/or to convince west that because of this "brave" woman (not really), russians do not deserve sanctions.
78 comments
[ 1.7 ms ] story [ 150 ms ] threadSee also the Daily Mail its partner in crime in nastyness.
I nominate Marina Ovsyannikova for International Woman of the Year.
As much as I am revolted by Russian invasion and the apparent broad support from Russians, the bravery of those who oppose it publicly is real and enormous.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkd4xy
Her bravery is incredible.
I am not sure that this is how it'll end. Could be common revolt with army support.
>"I'm not sure I can name a single dictatorship that's suddenly turned free."
Because you did not look. Romania and Argentina for example. You can find others but whatever.
It's the West that needs this kind of intervention.
Impressive though, how "the West" does all that project management and is capable of coordinating all their lies in so many different languages across so many different cultures and so many different ideologies and religions.
The trap, like always, is in the premise. This isn't Russia vs the West. Like its two superpowers battling.
This is an authoritarian hierarchical regime vs Ukraine. That same regime vs Poland. That same regime vs Finland. The same regime vs "empty sign holders".
The West is not some kind of homogenous blob. The few times all media across all these countries say the same thing, is when the other side is lying pants-on-fire.
They are literally suggesting Greece, Turkey, Germany and Poland are conspiring and coordinating to harm a hasbeen superpower with an economy the size of a potato of which half is energy exports. And the little bit of money they do make is then spend on the military, but due to the corruption, all ends up in apartments in London and yachts in Italy.
The Russians constantly employ disinformation -- a term that means lying -- to get their way. The level of chutzpah when they accuse Ukraine of being a neo-Nazi country, and so on and so on...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-14/elon-musk...
> Billionaire Elon Musk has challenged Russian President Vladimir Putin to “single combat”, with the “stakes” being Ukraine.
> With Mr Putin’s name written in Russian and Ukraine written in Ukrainian, the Tesla chief executive tweeted: “I hereby challenge (Vladimir Putin) to single combat.
> “Stakes are (Ukraine).”
The nerve of that guy. Ukraine isn't his to bet.
Its just a matter of time before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Jox becomes reality.
When I saw it in the nineties the ending felt like there is a hope what a solution for a peaceful co-existence and partnership could be found soon.
Both of them are working FOR Putin
Assange likely started with pure motives, but became compromised as WL ran out of money. He (claimed he) was about to release a pile of intelligence against the Russian govt & oligarchy, then never did, and was soon doing spots on RU.
The vast bulk of Snowden's pilfered haul had nothing to do with his stated aims, and definitely put agents in danger. And of course he ended up there. Notice he's not said a word since the RUS invasion of Ukraine. He hasn't got enough courage to be worthy to lick clean the soles of Marina Ovsyannikova's shoes.
Snowden, I think, somewhat blinded by the overwhelming US propaganda machine and the fact that he's stuck in Russia, made an honest mistake. He admitted as much on his Twitter. Nobody's perfect, that doesn't mean they're working for Putin.
For reference on what such a machine actually looks like, go look at Russian media this last two weeks.
Read what people who were actually in the intelligence agencies said; this [0][1]should have enough details and links to start you off.
You might also note that while the progressive Barack Obama had no problem pardoning Manning, he did no such thing for Snowdon. This was after the US House Intelligence Committee — not intelligence agency people, and both parties — UNANIMOUSLY voted to approve a report on Edward Snowden finding that he "did tremendous damage" to U.S. national security [2].
Perhaps you can explain how the whole airport fiasco and taking on Snowdon could have happened without Putin's direct approval - and why he'd do such a thing if it is "only" US civil rights issues at stake from Snowdon's theft.
Perhaps you can also explain how among the million+ documents Snowdon stole, only a few actually have anything to do with the headlines touting the civil liberty cause - e.g., exposing details of Israel’s killing of senior WMD proliferators in Syria [3]. Seriously, how does that improve anything in the US?
If you actually bother to look, without the hero-worshipping glasses and Qanon-level suspicion of anything related to government, you find that his massive story is a fraud.
Seriously, stop being fooled. I was similarly fooled, until I started trying to find actual experts on what had happened, and not just going along with the utter Kremlin line pushed out by popular trolls like Greenwald, and picked up and repeated uncritically.
[0] https://observer.com/2016/09/the-real-ed-snowden-is-a-patsy-...
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20200606111426/https://20committ...
[2] https://www.lawfareblog.com/house-intelligence-committee-rel...
[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20200226232346/https://www.jpost...
As another poster mentioned, they may have started that way but they became compromised and their motives now are not so clear. Self interest has become more prominent in their decisions and perhaps it was always that way.
This protestor on the news however has courage.
His last tweet hit me pretty hard, and I started worrying about his general safety after that. I don't wish being in an authoritarian state as a foreigner during a massive external and internal conflict and I'm very worried for his safety (and I mean that both in and outside of Russia)
[0] https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1498049577131208705
"I'm not suspended from the ceiling above a barrel of acid by a rope that burns a little faster every time I tweet, you concern-trolling ghouls. I've just lost any confidence I had that sharing my thinking on this particular topic continues to be useful, because I called it wrong."
I'd be curious to know what makes you say that, but beyond that, even the people here who believe their intent was not so pure cannot deny that the actual effect of the Snowden revelations has been a widely increased awareness about privacy, and much increased legitimacy for the products and ideas that attempt to improve the privacy situation for the average user (not sure if Assange/WikiLeaks revelations have had any material effect apart from shock at the scale of corruption being even beyond what people assumed).
Far from the "Snowden revelations changed nothing" cry of despair that was popular for a while, it's becoming clear that they changed the conversation around privacy from hypothetical situations from tinfoil hatters, to something everyone can and does talk about.
I don't doubt the leaks from Snowden increased awareness of privacy.
Snowdens early justification statements were "I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, Internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building. "
He was either a pawn or naive. Perhaps at the time we all were.
Snowden then went to China and then Russia. These are hardly the bastion of human rights, privacy and freedom that he supposedly fought for.
At some point we have to admit that all countries of any significance likely have intelligence and monitoring programmes. Maybe (in countries with some semblance of freedom) these are there to protect us from those countries that work against those same principles Snowden claimed to support.
I can't fault him for that. What would you suggest that he should have done instead?
Similar to Snowden was case of Alexander Litvinenko. Unfortunately Litvinenko was not hiding from USA but from Russia and is now dead.
“If you think that we will stop in #Ukraine, you are deeply mistaken, this is just an intermediate stage” says the main Kremlin’s propagandist, Vladimir Solovyev
Prove you worked against the regime and renounce your Russian Citizenship and get a Western passport. Let's see what Russians chose.
It was an absolute shit show of lies that nobody really believed. A million people protested https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_pr...
And still, the war went on as usual.
Even if 90% of Russians protested against the invasion of Ukraine I couldn't be sure it would make a difference.
As it is, most Russians don't even see this as a war, just a continuation of the ongoing Donbass conflict.
And mind you, prisons aren’t made equal. Russian ones are on the tough end of the scale.
That plays easily into the common narrative of Americans being bloodthirsty or brainwashed by their media but it simply isn't correct. There definitely was a period after 9/11 when any criticism of the government or war against Afghanistan and Iraq was seen as unpatriotic, the Dixie Chicks were cancelled, French fries became Freedom fries, and propaganda like Courtesy of the Red White and Blue became hits. But the US is more complex than many people give it credit for, and there were also protests in the streets and criticism within the media, even people going to Iraq to serve as human shields[0] against their own military.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_action_to_Iraq
1. I have heard many stories online, and even in-person, of people calling home to Russia and their families not believing the facts of the war in Ukraine.
2. One of the bigger sub-stories from the war in Ukraine is the availability of commercial satellite imagery.
Problem: Information asymmetry can lead to state sponsored mass murder.
Solution: Require universal access to 24hr-old global imaging to all citizens, if your country wants to be part of the global economic system.
I skipped over many problems to avoid a wall of text. I look forward to hearing why this idea could never work.
I personally thought that Russia proved that the total mind control is possible without cutting off alternative points of view and 1984 is exaggeration, but apparently it's not enough in the time of crisis like invasion of Ukraine. Now they have to introduce 15-year prison sentences for telling that the "sky is blue" metaphorically speaking.
Seems like yet another masquerade created by Russian propaganda.