Ask HN: Developers who switched careers, what are you doing now?

228 points by kirso ↗ HN
There is no back story here, but just curious of you who actually started off as an engineer and decided to switch early, mid or late career. What are you up to now? Why did you switch? How are you liking it?

343 comments

[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 295 ms ] thread
Moved to renewables. Wanted to try and help with climate change and needed new challenges.

Solar is a fantastic industry. Lots of room for improvement feels like internet did in thr mid 90s. Just a ton of enthusiasm and a sense you're part of something big and important.

could you please describe how you did the switch?
I came to terms with the belief that it was important for me to try and help with what I viewed as the critical problem of our time.

I just couldn't sit on the sidelines any more.

After that leap it was simply aligning my personal skills with various opportunities until I found a good fit. I looked broadly for a while: reforestation, fintech, residential installations, real estate, utility scale, training, open source, enterprise software, venture, etc. And I'm fundamentally an entrepreneur and a capitalist so I looked for problems through that lens.

But for me that process began with the same basic question every engineer has almost every day: "What is the problem, and what can I do to help fix it?"

What is your typical day? Did you need any certifications etc?
One of the few interviews I accepted was for a renewable management company. It does change the motivation a bit.
Could you give a sense about what the interesting problems there are? I get the sense (knowing nothing) that it's maybe similar to ML in the sense that only a few top research labs does all the fun stuff. The internet in the 90s had tons of low hanging fruit just about anyone could pluck.
Energy is fundamentally an economic problem so you're looking for places that reduce the incremental cost to deliver a kWh of renewable energy consistently over a long period of time. There is a shocking amount of soft costs (lawyers, permitting, financing, insurance, monitoring, sales, etc.) in renewables. Software can help with a lot of that. Fintech too.

The scale of our global energy infrastructure is incredible so small gains can have outsized impacts. I encourage you to just dig in.

Can only speak for ourselves, but at Solar Monkey we make software for solar panel installers and consumers. We have plenty of fun challenges! Like figuring out how to make it easy for sales people to design (electrically) valid solar panel set ups, as well as determining whether systems perform well for consumers based on yield data (with both analytical and ML models).
do you think NEM 3.0 is coming and will it kill the residential solar industry?
That would help with climate change, but the biggest part is reducing our consumption in all senses. For example, my electricity bill is 10€/month, I have no fridge, use no heating, no hot water, so I'd totally be able to live with just a small solar panel, as I almost never use a device that requires a high power (I eat mostly raw fruits/vegs, more rarely eggs, fish or rice)
I mean, kudos to you, but the vast, vast majority of people (myself included) are not willing to give up refrigerators, or heat, or hot water, so your approach really isn't relevant give the scale needed to solve the problem.
I haven't done so myself either, but as the time passes I increasingly become convinced that the only available options for vast majority of population will be to do it now on your own terms or be forced to do it with everyone else later.
I like how as a people, we exploded with technology and capabilities, and now supposedly need to return to living like a cave man. I just hope that people who decide to live that way can cope with the fact that all the rich people and politicians will still live in affluence no matter what
"like a cave man" → I advocate for cherry-picking what's really useful in our modern societies: internet, a laptop, runnable water, electricity, and saving energy and resources for all the rest because we're reaching our limits on this planet. But that's hard to pass this message without making people feel "guilty" (which again is not my point at all)
If you "explode with technology and capabilities" while externalizing a lot of their costs to future generations, what other outcome can you honestly expect? The future starts now.
sure, I just gave an almost extreme example for our capitalist societies, but just reducing their consumption by 20%-50% is easily achievable for most people, and that makes a huge difference
That sounds horrible haha, each to their own. I used to live like that when I had no money, maybe I’m a bit biased

I think I’ll wait till corporates are mandated to reduce waste at scale before I go that far. Ever seen how much waste a single Dominos store makes per day? Can’t recycle greased cardboard

Same here as a student, but I kept that lifestyle since then because I like that simplicity, the amount of money I earn doesn't change anything to that
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Why doesn’t using solar for heat & refrigeration do as much as foregoing heat & refrigeration? Isn’t the climate problem due to using non-renewables, and the emissions that come from physical construction, and not from energy use per se?

What do you envision as realistic for society, and how could we actually get there? Is it realistic for families with children to go without heat or refrigeration? How about senior citizens? As much as I agree that consumption should be reduced in a general sense, I’m a bit skeptical of “personal responsibility” solutions, when a huge fraction of current emissions, perhaps the majority, come from corporations. Another massive fraction comes from personal vehicles. Heating & refrigeration is pretty far down the list of big problems, if we’re going to be realistic about what the “biggest part” is, right?

When you see the amount of waste generated by hospitals, I would think twice before increasing the risk of food poisoning....
Are you doing software in that field, or are you an entirely different sort of engineer now? If so, did you have to obtain some kind of certification? Can you tell us about how that works?
I stayed in software and specifically fintech software where I spent most of my career.

There are aspects of renewables that require certification or licenses depending on your country (electrical work for example). But most of the work does not.

I could imagine woodworking in the future!
One more down the dev-to-woodworking pipeline [1].

[1]: https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...

Oh hey that's me! I blew my 15 minutes of internet fame on a throwaway comment on a github issue :-)
I'm thinking of making custom Kentucky Long Rifles personally. Tons of handcrafting - really woodworking since most makers use manufactured barrels and/or lockwork, and I believe there's a market for them. From a US Federal perspective, they're not even legally firearms so I don't think you'd have to worry much about red tape.
If you do, add me to the waitlist. I love classic firearms.
One of my "retirement" daydreams is to have a garage where I'd spend my days doing woodwork. There's something about building things with your bare hands that is very appealing to me.
I’m 34 and I am nowhere near retirement and I do this now.

It's easier to get started when you're young and have the physical stamina and strength to spend a Saturday in the shop. I'm going to go spend my day down there today, as it happens, while the dog supervises!

That's super cool! I'd love to have a dog as a supervisor. Unfortunately it's a bit harder to do in Europe where people don't generally live (or can afford) houses and tend to live in big cramped cities instead (I live in Barcelona). That said, I want to get out of the cement jungle in the next couple of years if the economy and work allows, and start realizing some of those dreams I've been having, before I'm dead or unable.
What's the housing market like in Spain? In Greece you can get houses/land for dirt cheap, if you can get the deed from the previous owner (bribes are basically required)
I am wondering if after changing career, would they still read this site, or is it part of what they wanted to get away from?
When I first stumbled on a senior engineer browsing HN at my very first internship, I assumed it was a hut for developers. However, the more I've browsed this place over the years, the more I realize the community is much, much larger than that. There are some very insightful people from many industries contributing to this site.
As someone who’s changed careers, I value HN for the wide variety of intellectual topics and often insightful commentary. I think in recent years it’s actually moved further away from the ‘$N raised by $X from $Y to build A for B’ headlines that I used to hate. It still takes some digging to find stuff I like, but not long. The classic web1 design helps.

Every community on the internet has its problems. Every community has its own circlejerk customs. And n-gate.com is all that needs to be said about HN’s problems (hope he comes back).

I’d be curious to hear from people here about other communities or news aggregators of the same quality or better

Switched to remodeling houses and landscaping.

I switched because this is better. Healthier. Saner. Happier. More in line with my long-term goals and general growth.

Remodeling doesn't sound like a healthy activity.
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It can be. It's physically taxing work but that's not a bad thing.

Living where you're remodeling at the same time is stressful.

I have no doubt that it is very fulfilling, but was thinking more of the dust, solvents, VOC, ie. the tiny things that are out to make you sick.
All those absolutely exist and you absolutely have to pay attention to them. And that is why your good friend Keen makes comfy ceramic-toed boots and your other good friend, the Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing Company, makes respirators with high-flow P100 filters and WorkTunes Bluetooth headphones/ear protection.

I'm thankfully mostly done my last (for a while) remodel, but I spend a bunch of time in my wood shop, and I'm always struck by how much longer I can do stuff when I'm even just wearing an RZ mask even when I have the dust extraction on and the overhead filters going. Dead trees just make a lot of crap, let alone gypsum boards and the like.

Stress and sitting at a desk all day kill just as effectively as gypsum dust.

However it’s a lot easier for a remodeler to put on a P100 mask.

The greatest danger is prolonged intellectual concentration. It will drive you stark raving bonkers and that's no lie. And it's so slow and gentle that you'll never know it. And when everybody around you suffers from the same derangement, it's considered perfectly normal
It can be physical too. Pretty sure my GI issues were caused from the stress of shipping software.
If you allow the question, what long-term goals and general growth (goals) did you set yourself to come to this choice?
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I'd rather not go into that. Sorry.
How did you get into remodeling? I like design and making things, it sounds interesting. Is it like those HGTV shows?
I was an old carpenter's assistant parttime for many years. And developed software part/full time for many years. Mixed together simultaneously. A gradual segue punctuated by several decisive acts
Any photos of your work? I work on houses in my spare time too... but its not a full time thing.
I'm afraid this sector is soon going to be saturated.
That's what people have been saying about software engineering for 20+ years. More substantively, I wouldn't count on the sector getting saturated. The US has under-built new homes for a decade, and available housing stock is extremely low. A lot of the money that would have gone to buying a new home is flowing into renovations.
Better, healthier how?, subjective maybe?. . Seems like you had a toxic job maybe?. I work in tech and all those good qualities apply.
Not sure if this is what you mean, but I 'switched' from an ML consultancy to entrepreneurship. I now build and market my own projects ([1], [2]) and try to gain enough ad revenue to replace my former salary.

Started 1.5 months ago, and enjoying every minute of it! No longer occupying my mind with corporate power dynamics saves a lot of cognitive bandwidth, but to my surprise it has been replaced. I thought I'd feel more 'free', but instead I now feel self-imposed pressure to make this one shot count. I know my runway is limited, so every day that didn't tangibly contribute to bottom-line growth feels wasted. I can rationalize it by reminding myself that I can always get a job and try again later, and that I should be spending most of my time on mid to long-term goals that have delayed effects. But that hardly changes how I _feel_. All in all, I'm really glad I made the jump, and I'm still super excited about what I do now.

[1] https://www.nslookup.io/

[2] https://www.whoismyisp.org/

I did something similar. Building is the easy part. Getting meaningful traction is difficult.

My own projects:

https://cxo.industries

https://tradecast.one

I like the "Copy successful traders if you don't know technical analysis." feature. I've always wanted that as an option for stuff like this.
Glad you like it! It came about because the feedback I got was that not everyone knows or is good at technical analysis, or even wants to learn it.
I should mention I'm going to Open Source a lot of the dev tools I built, including a back-end SDK + Flutter renderer to make life easier building mostly CRUD apps in Flutter.

I'm using Nim on the back-end, but a Python SDK is going to be added soon after the initial release.

https://nexusdev.tools/

Are you actually making money with the web pages you provided? My understanding is that adsense no longer pays the way it did before.
Yes. I'm on Carbon ads for the first, and I've partnered with NordVPN and ipinfo.io for the second. ~400 USD/month at the moment for nslookup.io. Stats are open: plausible.io/nslookup.io The end game for that site is to partner with a hosting provider or CDN and sell ad space to them exclusively.
nslookup.io is great — bookmarked it, I’m sure I’ll be using it in future!

Side note, curious how the domain name autocomplete works when searching? My domain wasn’t suggested, but all the other services I tried in my sector all came up. What’s the source for that data?

It's a stale list (checked into git) of the top 1m sites according to alexa.com, back when it was still maintained. Will need to update it to https://tranco-list.eu/ some time.
The SSL CT logs are public domain. Zonefiles from major TLDs can be found if you pay enough.
The first site is useful, but the second feels parasitic and slimy to me, sorry.
What would make it more useful, less parasitic and less slimy?
I'm really not trying to rag on anyone else's projects and detest it when other HN commenters do, but in this case the only honest answer I can think of would be "scrapping the site, domain, and concept and making something else instead".

A slightly related concept I would find interesting would be a way of visualizing and summarizing ISP/AS information in general (without any expectation the user would be particularly interested in their own; though that could be displayed on the landing page, perhaps). For example, an alternative way of presenting what https://bgp.he.net provides (example: https://bgp.he.net/AS33657#_peers, plus all the other tabs).

Providing an easy, quick, simple way to see "what network providers are upstream of this ISP/AS?" could be a useful feature.

Ideally without just being a proxy for bgp.he.net (unless the UI is totally unique and actually presents things in a fundamentally different way), and ideally without any VPN scarevertisements.

Frankly, this is why I've yet to pursue solo entrepreneurship myself. Unless you get really lucky, it seems there's a constant trade-off between "parasitism/skeeviness" and "not being able to afford rent or food". I've got plenty of ideas, but, so far, all either wouldn't provide enough for me to sustain myself, or would be too shady for me to be comfortable with, despite being legal.

All business models that promote VPNs feel parasitic to me. For example, there is this "unprotected" thing in red screaming DANGER to the unknowing visitor that feels exceptionally scammy. It says I am unprotected while I'm using a VPN to my server, Mullvad VPN or even Tor Browser. Why don't you say "You are not connected to NordVPN, the sponsor of this site"?
In all fairness, Mullvad also shows as 'protected'. I think I'll add a pop-up on hover that explains what 'unprotected' means, and how a VPN helps.
It works fine for the VPN I tested, which is not Nord. Like every IP list it just isn’t perfect.
It looks fine to me I’m not sure what this person is on about.
It's basically a promo site for NordVPN.
Does anyone actually use nslookup.io? Why wouldn't they just run `nslookup` and/or `dig` from their terminal?
About 7000 people per day [1]. Because they either

- Don't know you can do it from a command line

- Don't bother remembering the order of arguments

- Want to see all record types in one go instead of repeating the command for every record type

- Would like to have the output clearly formatted

- Are currently on mobile

- Would like to see additional ip info for A/AAAA records

- Would like to check responses for multiple recursive resolvers without remembering all their IP's

- Would like to test GEO DNS

[1] https://plausible.io/nslookup.io

That's awesome! Glad you found a niche
Hey Ruurtjan! Funny just replied to you on Twitter yesterday :)

I think any switch actually counts irregardless.

I feel you on the uncertainty thing. Quite honestly don't think you ever can escape this feeling. What helps is sort of going backwards from your imagined lifestyle that you want to live and how much you need.

Generally there is always a conflict of how much $ can I earn on the job and maximise my retirement account vs risking it with potential autonomy factor but less or no $.

Think the best we can do is just try to accept that feeling and do the best to achieve the financial needs necessary to keep going.

> Think the best we can do is just try to accept that feeling and do the best to achieve the financial needs necessary to keep going.

I think so too. Thanks :)

Followed Bill Gates' footsteps and bought a section of farmland. I grew up in FFA, and knew I wanted to raise beeves, etc since I was young. After a divorce, I pulled the trigger. Software funded beeves.
I wasn't sure so I googled it. You are talking about some kind of cattle ranching?

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/beev...

Regardless, congratulations on taking the plunge! I hope it goes well for you!

You got it-- running a fold of Scottish Highland beasts. Thank you!
My first guess would have been beaver farming.
I thought it was beehives
That's a different insanity — "BEEKS" we call ourselves =P
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Just don't follow entirely in Bill's footsteps. If someone offers you a ride on their private jet to meet some women...say no.
It’s all good, I’m eligible for farmersonly.com now…
What is FFA?
Future Farmers of America
Future Farmers of America[0] is common as a high school program especially in agriculture heavy areas in the US. My particular chapter focused on horticulture, dairy farm, and leadership structure. This involved hands on, on location apprenticeships with large animal veterinarians, various crop farms, etc.

When you are older and out of high school it’s sort of like a Linked In/resource.

[0] https://www.ffa.org/about/

Not reading Hacked News… that’s what they’re doing now.
Patently false
I know that’s not true. I live in a remotish town of ~50,000. With ag and retirement as the primary backbone. A couple months ago, someone on HN’er responded to one of my comments, and we’ve hung out a few times. I actually came here to see if he’s posted since he pivoted to real estate. I’m still in tech.
Not feeling obliged to read HN is an actual life goal of mine.
Why do you feel obliged to read this site?
Went from opera singer to developer to most recently CTO Solutions Architecture which is more change management and BD strategy than anything else. Enjoying it so far and it’s definitely blowing away my idea of a comfort zone. 37 now, will probably look to do another industry change again around 45-50. I could probably go into performing arts technology or something like woodworking or auto mechanic would be a lot of fun.
Love this! 34 now, I started as a renewable energy analyst, moved into tech sales, then product and currently just hacking for fun but not looking into transitioning into a full-time SE.

I truly believe we will have more than one career throughout our lifetime due to information availability and accelerated learning. Also for those of us who are privileged and have the time and opportunity, I believe when we achieve the basis mastery of the field, most of us just want to learn something new and do not want to go into PhD level depth.

My next forte is probably design!

Not a switch per se, because I still work on IT related stuff, but I started a bakery and a retail store (two separate businesses).

I hired a chef and a manager to do the work professionally, and I pay for wages, rent, material, etc. But I get to learn the immense efforts it takes for a brownie to be on a table, for a cake to bring a smile to face, and a cheesecake to melt in the mouth. It was a fresh experience, and I really like the change of pace it brought. We have been experimenting with waffles, brownie flavors, cheese cakes, etc. It feels like buying a new domain every day!

Any insight on initial investment required and ROI? Is this actually passive or you still have to do a lot of back-office work?
Interesting, have you leveraged your tech background to help the business?

I'm in a similar spot--my wife bought a retail business (gift shop + dress boutique) with her sister around 2018. My tech background made some things easier, like modernizing how they operate (bluetooth scanners, iPads, inventory management vs. the old clunky stuff that was in place).

Retail is a hard way to make a dollar, but very interesting -- I manage the business's finances and bought the commercial building they operate out of (and rent it to their business at a loss), so I've been learning a lot. For context, the business has grown ~30% YoY the last few years. But to continue growth I think we'll need to expand business online (90%+ of sales are in person).

"Sell online" seems harder and harder these days due to the competition--building to thrive in brick and mortar is different than online. During COVID they started weekly Facebook live shows which do well, but the audience is mostly local.

Since it is a brick and mortar businesses they already have processes for inventory, etc. in place with thousands of SKU's and are next door to the local post office, so I think there are some opportunities to leverage that into unique business opportunities. For example, they are a gift shop and specialize in helping people find gifts. What if they turned that into a service where people submit who they need a gift for + their budget and the store sends a gift to the person?

If I ever take a few months off I'd probably spend time thinking about how to leverage the unique advantages of old-school brick and mortar businesses like this.

My wife is doing the online business for her mother’s brick and mortar business. Unfortunately having the brick and mortar store doesn’t help all that much for the inventory situation. That’s because you can sell 1000 different SKUs with only 1 of each in inventory in a brick and mortar store. But online you better have only 1 SKU and 1000 of that in the inventory. It takes effort to put a SKU online as you need a description, picture etc. for each.

You might want to keep that in mind when looking at helping your wife & sister to bring their business online. For example by having a reduced availability or offering a live video call service walking around the store and let customers choose that way.

Thank you.

Yes my wife has had the same trouble putting stuff online: much effort to put it online without the inventory depth to make it worth it.

> What if they turned that into a service where people submit who they need a gift for + their budget and the store sends a gift to the person?

I've built sonething like this ~3 times as a consultant and I've never seen it get meaningful usage. Somehow it still sounds like a genius idea. Maybe if they have a following that is personally loyal to them it will work well?

I hate to be discouraging but I might see if the idea gets traction with your customers by mentioning it on Facebook Live and running it through the chat before building out anything complicated.

Thanks for the insight--that's a good suggestion!
Where is your bakery/store located? I would love to visit a bakery owned by another HN user.
> It feels like buying a new domain every day!

... and gain new domain knowledge every day (sorry :D

How about version-controlled ingredients, chief-as-a-service CI pipelines, taste issues tracker, things like that?

It's a dream of mine to exit into running a bakery/cafe when I retire from IT. So much in fact I've held off on buying a house.

Have you written about your experience anywhere? And if not would you be open to sharing more of your experiences with it?

Cheers.

I build furniture now[0], but I occasionally hack up code for myself[1].

[0] https://longwalkwoodworking.com [1] https://github.com/longwalkwoodworking

Very cool. I assume you are able to make a living selling your pieces? They seem pricey to me but then again you're not in the business to outsell IKEA.

Is shipping a problem or do your customers generally arrange to pick up the pieces themselves?

Thanks! Let's say I'm (actually, not Silicon Valley) profitable, growing, and making a meaningful contribution to our household income. Not quite "making a living" on my own, but I feel good about this year and going forward.

I'm definitely targeting people in the post-IKEA parts of their lives, but sometimes the value prop is as simple as "you can't get a decent book shelf for a kid's room". I built some for a customer whose daughter destroyed a set of cheap ones. That's a very different bookshelf than if a lawyer wants a set for their office, obviously, but not everything I do is high-end either.

Shipping is interesting. After a bad experience with a carrier whose trucks are a familiar sight in the US, I no longer ship anything I can't box the hell out of via non-specialist carrier. Some stuff I deliver, some stuff goes by carriers that specialize in art-type stuff. LTL would likely be an option for some stuff as well. Pickup is an option as well, of course.

I'm not sure if you're looking for stories of moving away from tech, software, or just development, but I did the latter.

I started as a web developer, but I realized that my favorite part of the job wasn't building new pages/apps but helping my colleagues when they ran into roadblocks. I got a reputation as a problem-solver and people would come to me with their thorniest bugs or browser compatibility issues and I loved it - the detective work of investigating and diagnosing the issues, the creative solutions to work around browser limitations, and the satisfaction of helping people achieve their goals.

Then I met a product support engineer at my friend's startup and heard about that role, and realized it was an entire job made of what I loved most about my previous jobs. I joined the team and was on it for years, and have been working in technical support for software products ever since (about twelve years now). I still build websites as a hobby, but I wouldn't want to do it for a job anymore. I'm very happy in product support.

can you explain that role sound interesting ?
It's been a bit different in each of the companies I've had it, but fundamentally it's about using product expertise, general tech skills, and problem-solving to help the people who are using the product. Sometimes there are planned/scheduled/proactive projects, but the primary responsibility is responding to and helping with whatever issues customers are running into. This means the job can be unpredictable, because on any given day you don't know what's going to come up, but I like that - it keeps things new and interesting.

Support requests come in through whatever channels the team uses (every team I've been on has used email, some have also used Slack/phone/videoconference/etc.) and include things like bug reports, questions about best practices or how to do something with the product, and sometimes feature requests. As a support engineer, I take ownership of the support requests and do whatever is appropriate to drive them toward successful resolutions for the customer.

Because software products can change quickly, this often involves learning new features or systems. I often get support requests about tools or workflows I've never seen before (or that have changed significantly since the last time I looked at them) and have to quickly get up to speed on them. I learn best when it's in service of a goal, so this works well for me - I'm trying to help the customer accomplish their own goal and that motivates me to dig in and learn.

If it's a bug, I also investigate and try to reproduce the reported behavior. Sometimes the issue isn't what it appeared and the problem was that our documentation or UX was unclear, in which case I clarify things to the customer and file a ticket to fix the docs/UX. (Or just fix it myself - the amount of direct work I've been able to do in the docs/product has varied between companies, based largely on their size.) Sometimes it is a bug, in which case I'll try to come up with some alternate way for the customer to do what they are trying to do and then also file a ticket to get the bug fixed (with clear repro steps and getting as close to the root cause as I can, depending on how familiar I am with that part of the code base).

I also try to be proactive and serve as a customer champion - in most companies I've seen, product support has the broadest view of what issues are coming up for customers, and that can be valuable signal for the product team on how to prevent issues before they happen.

That's it in a nutshell. :) Always learning and applying expertise to help people succeed. I think it's a great fit for people who don't need to be in the spotlight but like knowing they've helped individuals and who work well in a rapidly-changing environment. (I think it might actually be kind of a dream role for technical people who have ADHD.)

Honestly this sounds like me
This is my favorite part of the job too - digging through weird, ancient spaghetti code and finding obscure bugs. Then either crafting a fix to the code, or creating some kind of migration path or workaround to mitigate the problem. Unfortunately in a lot of companies this kind of "maintenance mode" job is not well-paid or well-respected, and is given to the least-qualified devs. I keep finding myself promoted out of the position, or assigned to work on something that supposedly has more "impact" (read: increasing revenue and/or encouraging investment), even though from my perspective the most impactful work is helping loyal customers who already value the product highly enough that they're paying for support.

How did you deal with the "overqualified" problem, or did you switch early enough that it didn't matter? From my end, I have over 20 years of development experience, and I feel that often disqualifies me from consideration by a lot of employers.

I went and worked on Wall Street. Good experience and the work could be interesting but honestly got to the point where I wasn’t willing to sacrifice my life to the extent necessary to stick it out. Heading back to tech in a more business oriented role that I think will be better for me, and money is the exact same for now. It won’t ramp up as fast but I do think the lifetime upside is similar in compensation and immeasurably better in health and happiness.
how did you make the move? without prior track record in trading or finance?
MBA
never thought that would be enough. what did you exactly do day to day in your wall street job?
I was on the private side doing m&a, debt and equity advisory. MBA is a common path into the role.
ok, i thought you went into trading… like being a quant or trader.
Product Management. I hate it, but I was too stupid to get into FAANG as an SDE and my personality type better matches the role. I love coding and have done it my whole life and for 10 years professionally but at the highest level I’m simply not as smart as other people
why do you hate it? (ur personality matches dev better than pm? not sure how to read your comment)
You don't have to LOVE your job/profession per se, but hating is certainly not healthy for you, it sounds to me you at least have the choice to pursue a different career.
Au contraire. “faang” ( with the exception of the “n” ) engineers aren’t on average smarter than gen pop devs. They are simply willing to grind leetcode and put up with a lot more behavioral stressors ( large companies are incredibly difficult to prove impact and all the low hanging fruit is done, so the fights are more bitter because the stakes are lower )
Being willing to do the interview process is part of it, yes, but this idea that they’re all just average is completely wrong.

Highly paid big company engineers are some of the most talented developers out there. The companies invest great resources into making it that way.

The idea that they’re all just average devs who did LeetCode for a month and now they’re paid twice as much is a comforting fiction for non-FAANG engineers, but it’s not true.

If it was true, we’d be seeing scores of average developers taking a month to do LeetCode and then get huge pay increases. Who wouldn’t invest a month of work on a free website if the payoff was millions of dollars over the next decade?

Since supply of these jobs is so limited, how do you know whether that’s true or not?

It may be a lottery ticket where a 30-day investment increases your chances of winning to 1:100 from the default of 1:10,000. It’s still unlikely that you’ll get in.

This is just a hot take, and personal observation of mine, but the smarter / more intelligent your applicant pool becomes, the less financially motivated they seem to be - i.e., their main motivation is to work on interesting and challenging things. Of course, those things are not mutually exclusive - but fact stands that almost no-one that joins some megacorp, gets to work on the most challenging things from the start (well, other than certain R&D groups).

The "golden" pool of applicants would be those that are above average intelligent. They're more financially motivated, willing to jump through the hoops, and confirm to the system, if it guarantees some huge payoff in the end (financial gain, power and prestige, etc.). These applicants are the bread and butter to sectors like high-finance and management consulting. And in recent years, they've jumped ship to join tech.

Agree and personally I think the Leetcode part is the easiest part in their process. The whiteboard algorithms is where the real fun begins.
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You're being downvoted but your point about FAANG engineers not being "special" resonates to a degree with me. I think every team need engineers, that are learning, to do the drudgery — even (especially?) FAANG companies. (I did mostly that in my own career.)

To be sure, FAANG companies have their luminaries that are some of the brightest people I have ever known. Among engineering they are recognized as the really smart ones — the ones you go to when a bug is kicking your ass (for example — or when you need to re-architect the entire graphics pipeline of your product in order to stream 60 FPS 1080K video).

But they are not representative of the rank and file at big companies.

I'm sure the average Google dev is of higher intelligence than the average dev at Coca Cola. No disrespect to anyone but how wouldn't it be the case? I can't make it into FAANG btw, I get too stressed during interviews or I'm not a quick study enough (I don't really have the energy to self study for months preparing for an interview) or a combination of the two.
I’ll concede this point in specialized areas: these companies are able to pay top of band for ML researchers and data scientists. 10 years ago I’d have agreed that G and F had the best. But now, knowing many many engineers who work there, my anecdotal and very subjective assessment is that they don’t exactly demonstrate an advantage. Especially if the task is pure ( non leetcode ) development of a software product, I would even go so far as to say they’re at a distinct disadvantage.
I'm good at project management though, but highly unconventionnal compare to PMI type. So this create a lot of issues that make me hate my job... but I do deliver, so there's that. Still, after 4 years, I realise I truly despise my job.

I'm searching for my next career switch. I don't know what it'll be.

IIUC, you live sw development but you took the job you hate just because it is at FAANG? If I may ask, why would you want to be there and nowhere else? Asking because there are quite a few great jobs around for devs, so the decision seems pretty weird to me, which probably means I am missing something... :)
Jeez it's either FAANG or you're out? There's quite a lot of other companies out there...
I just moved from a full-stack engineer position to AI researcher of an R&D lab in a software company.

Honestly, not much of a career change, but given the new position, I can be much more exposed to new technologies, get to try out new things, like IoT and Blockchain as well. Hopefully with the new knowledge I acquired, I can start my own business someday. Mostly since somewhere along the road of coding 8-to-5 as a developer, I want to create something for myself instead of building other's dream.

I did software engineering for 3 years after graduation. Now I teach mathematics in a high school since '20. Software engineering was very stressful for me and I also wanted to sync holidays with my kids. Parents seem to value my background. Pay is low but I have a reasonable amount of extra time to tinker.
Never undervalue work-life balance. Good move on your part, I'd say
I also think teaching is thousand times more rewarding and motivating than the 500th CRUD app.
I was a SWE at a FANG. Left to get an MBA, then went back to FANG to do other things. Finance, Operations, Product.

My role now still has me involved in solving problems, and I will still review technical architecture (eg why are you proposing a GraphDB for this highly structured data, how are you going to address the fact that Cassandra is eventually consistent, etc.), but it’s a lot more people and solutions driven. A lot of email, Excel, and Zoom. Very little writing scripts and running queries, which I do once a quarter or so.

Sounds like what I want to do. Do you believe this transition was worth it? Did you see a pay increase or cut? What do you see in the career trajectory?
I did this. SWE before, got MBA, came back to tech and eventually settled on project management.

Pros:

- You get a bigger picture of the business and product. As a SWE you generally work on a tiny morsel of a huge product. Product managers and project managers often get to work across the broad product (or even a portfolio of projects if you're overworked), interact with leadership more, if your lucky, even have a voice in the direction the project/product is going.

- Greatly helped me work on that "social skills" muscle. I have to actually talk to people--people who are not also introverted nerds like me!

- Work life balance can be better than SWE but find the right company. I currently stop work at 5:30 and it's great.

Cons:

- Your work output is generally slide decks and spreadsheets. Yuck. I miss my work output being the actual software that users use.

- The pay is much worse than as a SWE. You're not going to be seeing these $500K total compensation packages that every SWE that posts on HN apparently gets.

- The cost of the MBA can set your net worth back quite a bit, and given the above pay disparity, it's not worth it financially. You can also be a project manager or product manager without paying $X00,000 for an MBA. I'd be closer to retirement now if I just remained a SWE.

- Career growth: Meh. About the same. At most places you're either junior or senior and that's it. Just like software engineering. If your goal is to be VP or This or Director of That, I don't think changing careers to "a different type of individual contributor" is going to help.

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I generally agree with the other Ryan’s feedback.

I’ve been very lucky/fortunate/successful, so it’s hard to call it a pay cut, but giving up FANG RSU’s 15 years ago hurt, and in general engineers make more than non-engineers.

It was definitely worth it to me because I enjoy the work I do much more. It’s still technical but I get to make business decisions (and pre-pandemic, travel to great places). I work with a lot of project managers but don’t have to do too much PM, which I find a bit dull and not a good match to my skills. I prefer creative thinking and problem solving (with some analysis mixed in) to highly structured work.

It’s easy to say when you’ve got the benefit of privilege (good schools, financial safety net), but I was able to choose to focus on the work I liked and be good at them, and the other parts fell into place.

All that said, multiple times a year since graduating I talk to engineering colleagues about getting an MBA and I almost always advise against getting one. It’s not a good financial decision. If you know what you want to do and are at a good company, figure out a way to pivot to that role eg as an engineer work on projects that are more customer facing, or closer to the product, or closer to analytics, rather than going deeper into SRE or architecture. Why spend $300-500K in lost wages and fees to learn to be a PM if you can be paid to figure out how to do it?

The exception to that is if you want to be a VC. Then it makes to get a Stanford MBA, if you can get in.

I switched from development at startups to a solution architecture role at a Fortune 500 and then eventually to a business executive role at the same Fortune 500. Hated working in big company IT and the business role gave me a significantly larger role in decisions and influence.

Compensation wasn’t really effected one way or another since trajectory has been steady upward. I think that slows down nowish since I didn’t come up in the traditional business and many more senior roles are filled by traditional executives.

Like many people right now I’m evaluating options for better work-life balance and really actually miss learning new domains. The downside of looking at other options is the role is so unique I don’t fit exactly into most roles at other companies. So it’s been hard to get a foot in the door with other companies outside the industry I’m in.

I was a manager, for many years. I ran a development shop, but did not write paid code. I was good at it, but hated it. I wanted to code all the time.

During that time, I wrote open-source stuff, on the side (unpaid).

Since leaving that job, I am now writing code, more than ever, and still not getting paid.

Not what you're looking for, I know, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Have you considered getting sponsors on Patreon or Github?
Not really. I have a very specific demographic that I Serve. It would not be considered "proper" to solicit money from them. Most others would not find my software useful.

I actually don't mind that my stuff isn't that popular. The more folks that use it, the less freedom that I have to modify it.

I'm my own best customer. I write the software that I need, and consume it. Publishing it forces me to cross my t's, and dot my i's.

It seems that high-Quality software isn't a "thing," these days, so I guess my stuff isn't something people want.

I switched mid-career to being a full-time parent. The pay sucks but the benefits are amazing.
Woohoo! Me too! Now the kids are 8 and 10 and I’m looking to get back into the workforce. It’s amazing how few people respect the work involved being a full time parent.
I was a journalist, and a foreign correspondent. Software engineering was the second career, not the first.
Mid-career I went back to school for a PhD in Computer Science, and now I definitely think of myself as a CS researcher rather than an engineer. I still write code occasionally, but it’s no longer a daily activity. I switched because I wanted to better understand the why’s of what I was doing as an engineer (applied ML by the time I got out if the game). I like it a lot! Grad school salary was a rough come down after engineer money, but I was a saver, and I saw it as an investment in my happiness and future career. And I really love what I do now and feel like I have real impact on the world, so it was very much worth it!
what is your area of research now and are you also teaching or in industry?
Walked away from 20 years of software development last year. I've been day and swing trading stocks for last 2 years. I'm now trading full time and doing great. I don't miss the daily stand-ups, scrum meetings, planning meetings, "quick chats", one-on-ones with management, weekly department meetings, monthly company meetings, and late night critical support calls one bit!
Sorry for the blunt question, but how does it feel to go from something where you make something valuable to ...that?

(At least I feel what I do give me meaning)

Providing liquidity to the market is valuable too, as well as rapid reallocation of capital where it's needed.

Not to say there aren't differences, of course. But I feel like your comparison is condescending. These people do valuable work too.

Stock traders don't "provide" anything, they're just playing a part in a poor, and exploitation-buttressing, system of exchange and resource allocation.
That's a very shortsighted view.
Shortsightedness is exactly the problem with daytrading.
Well don't daytrade if you're shortsighted, for sure. But if you think daytraders can afford to be shortsighted, you're very wrong - it's one of the most exposed professions in this regard, the market will react weeks or months in anticipation of an event.
Most developers work on meaningless, "make the rich richer", products anyways
But you can find something meaningful (very easy), or start your own business (easiest moment in history to rise 1million), or teach in a bootcamp...

There are 100 options. Wasting a wonderfull mind just because... sad

Dunno, finding something meaningful to work on has been really hard for me, personally.

It's either a big drop in revenue or bullshit projects

What a load of shit. This is the same mindset folks who pop up to yell at some Google engineers have. Why are you using your skills to collect data for adtech! You could be helping bring clean drinking water to the world!

People value what they value, and should be able to work in fields that bring them happiness and don’t break the law without your judgement. Who are you to tell anyone what’s meaningful?

It's unfortunate that adtech enjoys less popularity than bringing clean drinking water to the world. That's really a tragedy and the main thing wrong with the world.

I wish I could do wildly unpopular things without people criticizing me.

Who the hell is everyone else, to dare judge me?

I am above judgement.

Or you know, do the polite thing and keep quiet?

The sentiments from you, and the original post I was replying to, have inherent privilege baked into them. A South Asian person with family who depends on them for remittances is ignored. A family with a child with special needs that require specific health insurance coverage is ignored. There are so many reasons people do the work they do. Presumably you think people who work in adtech, for example, are somehow morally inferior. It's this sophomoric view of the world that's bothersome. To tell anyone they should consider teaching at a coding bootcamp instead of what they're doing ... I have no words.

I'd love to hear how these folks are changing the world for the better. It's much easier to tell others what they should do with their time and money.

You paint a picture of adtech workers as underprivileged selfless providers for their disabled family.

The truth is there are underprivileged people in every type of industry, doing every kind of job. When people criticize adtech, it is not poor people they are criticizing, and I think we both know the picture you're painting is nothing like the median adtech worker.

You're using disadvantaged people as a blanket justification for the whole industry. But the industry targets everyone, whether they're disadvantaged or not. With that reasoning you can justify anything, but that's not even the core of the problem.

There are scammers who target the elderly over the phone, that have the same justification. You might think I'm picking scammers because they're so hated, but the truth is scammers are people too. They have families that depend of them, they have kids to feed, and they deserve empathy just as much as you do.

But who does their work hurt? Old people, poor people, rich people, and also other underprivileged people.

That's the real problem with the idea that doing the right thing is a privilege. You don't care who's being hurt, and you don't care what their privilege is.

If you're hurting more people than you're helping, you don't get to demand that people also love you for what you're doing, is the problem.

>Presumably you think people who work in adtech, for example, are somehow morally inferior.

No. I think that's being presumptuous.

The point is not about calling people "morally inferior". Before thinking of yourself as underprivileged and above criticism, you should try to see that there are people less privileged than you that adtech is targeting (or preying on), and people much more privileged than either of us that profit from this work.

>I'd love to hear how these folks are changing the world for the better. It's much easier to tell others what they should do with their time and money.

No, absolutely not. It's really not me who has a pet peeve against adtech in particular, it's a whole lot of people from all walks of life. Do you think I want to feel "superior" and tell you that you're "inferior"? What good does it do to anyone to think like that, exactly?

Maybe I happen to do something that is less unpopular than adtech. Or maybe not. But if you think that's why I replied to you, you're missing the point.

Sadly, there not many options if you want comfortable life and do good at the same time.

My fiends and I really wanted to do good when starting our careers and looked at many non-profits, all of them pay sub-market rates. And then we learned secondhand that most of these non-profits were run by narcissists leaders with worse office politics than regular offices.

We got jobs in regular companies building some of most critical infrastructure of the internet. We felt like we were contributing to advancement of humanity and freedom. But after 10 years, we realized we just made rich kids richer, divided humanity like never before, destroyed privacy, and made sure everyone is addicted to their screens.

I mostly helped in the building of the cloud, and I know what business most of our clients are in. Very few are doing something that is not harmful.

Teach in bootcamp? So that these rich-kids will have more workers?

Start your own business? Consulting? Helping other companies do evil? Another app to get hooked on? Restaurants? There is already obesity epidemic? Build new homes or rehab? I can respect that but it is capital intensive.

Anyways, I see whenever trading is mentioned people call it a useless activity while most of us are engaged in actual harmful activities.

Ethical healthcare? There is not much you can bs when faced with your own mortality.
> And then we learned secondhand that most of these non-profits were run by narcissists leaders with worse office politics than regular offices.

I've worked for a tech-focused nonprofit for the last decade, and know people who have worked for other tech nonprofits. My experience (direct and secondhand) does not match what you said here. There are lots of good mission-focused tech companies to work for (both non- and for-profit). If, as a sibling comment suggested, you want to bring clean drinking water to the world, I know people who have worked at charity: water and enjoyed it.

It's true the pay will usually be below market rate for software engineers. It still can be much higher than most people in US[0] will ever make, and not an obstacle to living comfortably (by any definition of "comfortable" I consider reasonable). It's possible it could make it more difficult to buy a nice house in a central location in one of the more expensive cities, but that's true for most people and needs systemic changes to address it.

0: I assume we're talking about the US, since that's where the really high tech salaries are (and it's the place I live and have experience)

I think that is a little harsh. A huge amount of tech work is not meaningful. Almost none of what tech companies output is required for a meaningful or happy life. It’s just that humanity is addicted to growth and things and just “doing stuff” thinking it all matters. Just look at the several meaningless companies YC supports.

Some meaningful tech work can be found in healthcare, social work, some portions of national security work, environmental research, teaching, and other places, but they are the exceptions. My definition of meaningful is that it either helps people, in a real way, or furthers knowledge or adds to the expression of humanity (i.e., art).

In my opinion, if someone can siphon off value from the human constructed rivers of the financial markets, and then use that value to live a good life, then I don’t see the problem. Some loose arguments about market liquidity could be made.

Hey, if you were working in advertising or crypto, you’re probably about breakin even in the “meaningfulness” department
I'd argue that daytrading is less of a net negative for the world than working on ad tech software.
ads and fake news fuel daytrading, same side of the coin
Don’t know about GP’s details, but IMO trading brings quite a lot of value to society especially compared to at least some non-sense tick the box software jobs. Trending brings liquidity and makes resources available to where it is needed.
The term valuable is subjective. What really matters is whether you are happy in whatever you’re doing. People who make good money in trading are mostly going to spend some too somewhere which indirectly puts food on table for others.
When I first started out I actually got to develop, write and deploy complete applications as opposed to endless updates or tiny sections of some larger project. It was an amazing feeling seeing something you write being run by dozens or even hundreds of users around the world. If the code you write today is meaningful to you that's great but its been a LONG time since I could look at something running that I wrote and feel any sense of ownership in the deal. I used to tell my team - when we have a bad day something crashes or doesnt work right. When my wife has a bad day somebody may have died literally (she's a nurse). Perspective!
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Tbh, i dont really feel i ever do anything valuable with software either
Fair enough, and probably more people feel that way? Not all tech is good tech, especially not if one follows the money. But I feel the stuff I've done in my career have had a direct impact on people's lives, but perhaps it's because I self select for those kind of projects because that matters to me?
Mastering something like trading to the point where you can earn a living from it is probably pretty meaningful to a lot of people.
My guess is that you do the more "meaningful things" in your spare time. Likely day trading affords you a little more of that?
Giving back to the world is just one way to be satisfied. Being great at something, or even just learning, are often sufficient.
In my twenty year dev career I can count the meaningful projects on just a few fingers.
Have been thinking a lot about this.

There are more ways to make an impact, such as earning a good salary and re-investing / donating to build trees, renewables or serve any of the UNDP goals that are helping society.

In fact that is probably more impactful that personally picking fruit in the garden.

I guess it just depends on the place itself not being generally net negative to society compared to the impact you can make with it.

Here is a good primer: https://80000hours.org/

That's brave, given the odds. Having gotten into options recently myself, I'm curious if there was some research or reading materials that you found particularly helpful in your ramp up to trading full time. Also do you try to close out every position by close of business each day or is there a longer term approach?
Here’s the thing. If I could just code without being a slave to a scrum master or being product micromanaged.. I would never leave the industry. I worked five years in mobile gaming when the Apple Store first opened. Released 13 titles, had my hands in a half a dozen others, three teams in two countries, 15 employees at our height (95% remote). Never had a standup, planning meaning, grooming.. etc.
I'm surprised you made it 5 years. It seemed like the App Store collapsed to free within a year or two.
You make it sound like there's no money to be made in Apps, but that's clearly obvious to not be true. Switched to freemium with In App Purchases is the model I see every where, and I am constantly amazed at the fact that $0.99, $1.99, etc are paid multiple times by the user to the point that they could have bought a AAA console new release with the IAP paid.

These apps also include ad sales to the IAPs. The money no longer needs to come from the initial download.

We made the switch from paid, to ad driven, to freemium/IAP for our in-house games.

Zynga was one of our biggest clients. Hasbro came in second. As well as a few white label advergames (eg. Vans shoes). We rarely made more than a small cut on profits (if that) and were generally paid upfront and on delivery.

What were your main means of coordination and planning?
We knew what needed to be built. Sometimes it was easy, we were doing a direct port, other times product and design would write it up in somewhat detailed documentation (can you believe no stories/tasks?!). Because they were games you’d start with the play loops and continually tweak them. Assets would come in from designers throughout the lifecycle of the project and they’d just document what they wanted to see (fonts, colors, animations, flow).

We had a product manager who would regularly play our builds and speak with the clients. If the clients were unhappy, had feedback, or found bugs, he would chat or hop on a call with the lead developer (usually me). We’d write it on a sticky note or put it in our mind palace as a Todo (or if you were a defensive programmer and planned that a certain piece of code needs to be flexible, you were fixing it while he was explaining the problem).

So, we had communication, but not in the form of formal meetings. Product set the delivery dates, we set goals/cadence as engineers around those dates, and based off of continual feedback we iterated on the design.

As a footnote. Let’s face it, good devs are good communicators. We do it constantly with our team members. I’m blocked, I need help, why don’t you work on, what if we did..

Daily scrum and weekly grooming and quarterly planning. That’s for product. That’s counting beans and making sure no one goes rogue and accidentally innovates.

Daily scrum is nothing more than a product status meeting. If you’re a dev and you’re waiting for that meeting everyday to tell someone you’re blocked or need something.. then there’s a communication problem.

> If I could just code without being a slave to a scrum master or being product micromanaged.. I would never leave the industry.

My current job has zero planning meetings and a standup twice a week with 20 people attending that lasts about 7 minutes on average; standup is literally "what are you working on and are you blocked?". If the person rambles in standup, our boss cuts them off and has the next person go. It's been this way for at least a year and a half (when I started). We're given wire-frames or high-level designs of what needs to be built and the target goal date. Developers are then left to code with nearly full autonomy. We always deliver the product early. I've worked in so very many places over the last decade and a half - from huge corporations to small startups - and if all of them took this approach, they would've increased their productivity at least 10-fold.

This is almost exactly what we do and I love it but there's one exception. We have sprint review meetings on the last day of our sprint where several product teams present what they accomplished during the sprint. It works fine for people in time zones where it's the end of their day but for others they have to present what they achieved during the sprint, while the sprint hasn't ended. It's been shocking to see how vehemently the scrum masters have fought to not move it to the first day of the new sprint. Cargo cult agile is probably the worst part about the industry.
There do exist corporate positions with a high degree of autonomy and as-needed coordination. I have one of them right now. I will be sad to ever let it go.
I would love to talk with you more about this. You open to conversation?
How do you deal with the stress related to trading? Isn't it hard mentally when it goes "not your way"?
How much did you need to make day trading worth?
Good luck to you! I remember back in the late 90's / early 2000's when The Stock Market Only Goes Up, and 1/4 of my software peers quit to "become day traders." Well when the bear market inevitably came, I started seeing them back in scrum meetings... Do your due diligence and and preserve your capital :)
I remember. So easy to day trade when everything was going up, ha ha.
I remember this too. I decided I'd only try it with $1K. Soon, I'd tripled my money (despite trading fees), decided that I'd proven I could do it, and then put it all for long-term into a company I liked and believed in (Red Hat).

Later, I learned that winning being easy was the nature of the market at the time, rather than it being a personal achievement worth proving.

I also was lucky that I didn't discover a compulsive/addictive weakness for the activity, which could've turned a $1K experiment into personal ruin.

A good day trader is able to shift gears in case of a bear market e.g. knows when to short. Very few days traders are actually good, most lose money and quit after some months.
It can be very difficult to look at the realised outcome and disentangle how much of that outcome was driven by decision making, and how much was due to variability of factors entirely outside of your control, i.e. "luck". What if your decision making is poor and over-fitted to current conditions that are not guaranteed to persist, but you keep (temporarily) winning anyway?

Taleb writes about this kind of thing in Fooled by Randomness. Poker player Annie Duke's book "thinking in bets" also goes into it.

I reckon to some extent public market conditions in recent years since GFC have approximately been "stock market only goes up" with a few small fluctuations from covid, negative oil price weirdness, etc. Lots of investors trying desperately to invest cash in recent years pouring money into variety of highly speculative areas -- SPACs, crypto, fraudulent EV companies (Nikola rolling their "truck" down the hill to make it look like it was self propelled, lol).

At some point the music will stop.

I've been exploring day trading recently and have not yet found the angle that works for me and also fits my lifestyle/budget. It's hard to find reliable sources of education on the topic because it seems like so many materials are teaching hindsight technical analysis that looks good on paper but is really just BS to sell a e-book or Discord subscription. I'm still exploring what time frames I want to trade and if I should go with option strategies or stock scalping. Do you have any advice for learning materials?
That’s because it’s a fancy word for gambling
The best way of day trading is to exploit a market inefficiency that nobody (or very few) are aware of. As soon as this inefficiency is know to public it will disappear, that's why there is not much sensible material for day trading to learn from, maybe except for the psychological aspect, which is very important. Try to find a system that works for you and be quiet about it. Unfortunately, 95%< of day traders didn't find a system that works and quit after some time.
The best way to learn trading is to work for an investment bank / hedge fund and learn from folks who already do that successfully.

Anything else is likely BS.

For about a year I've been watching a guy on Twitch (in the background while working my real job) who day trades everyday. I thought TA was BS but I was wrong. I've learned a ton from just watching/listening and after paper trading for 8 months I'm now comfortable using real money. You're right though almost everything out there is BS selling a book/newsletter/chat room. (Twitch streamer = StockJock)
Sad to hear that top minds just give up on humanity and accept money as a goal by itself. I do have long term investments (5 nanometers, extreme litography, electric vehicles... just what I love), I make money, but is not something I need to live.

Last month, when war started I told my team, Aerovironment stock, is gonna double (war drones) but I'm not gonna be part and I want you all to feel how calmed I'm about that and undertand (I don't need those 100k). I now undertand the difference between being Socrates or a 'sofist' (greek philosophs both, one for pleasure, the second as a job). Investing shouldn't be a need, is what's best for humanity. I think Elon musk already refered this way

Day trading doesn’t work. What is your secret ? You can make millions selling your book.
Well, that's the catch.

Those who actually consistently make money daytrading (averaged out over a long enough time period) don't have a need to write those books (and potentially put themselves at a disadvantage by doing so) to make money.

While those who write "daytrading secrets" books typically make heavy majority of their money from those books, because they cannot make money from actual daytrading.

I thought so too but it really can work if you have the right emotional mindset and stick to your game plan. There are streamers who do it live to prove it.
What are some of the resources and communities you use for trading?
What would you need to get into day trading, properly, as a full time job? I'm certain that bank defaulter lists are filled with mediocre day traders, so without asking what's your secret, what's your secret?
I wish you great luck, but please be cautious.

I'll never forget the great crash of 2000. Among the signs I should have seen-- I knew a guy from my bowling league who quit his job to day trade. I don't know what your qualifications are for this line of work, but this guy had no discernible skills. He was doing fine 'till the big crash, then he was wiped out.

Please be safe.

Was in tech for 15 years, I was feeling burned out and started a beverage company out of my kitchen. It really took off and now its my full time gig. I have a small staff and work 3-4 days a week. Work-life balance is way better, however I'm missing the challenges and smart individuals that come with working on tech products.
Could you tell me a bit more about your beverage company?
I worked full time as a software dev from about 1999 until 2010. It was never really all that fulfilling for me, although I was pretty good at what I did. I was laid off in 2010, and spent the rest of the year milking goats and sheep, and making cheese in France and the UK. When I returned home in late 2010, my wife and I moved to a more rural location, bought a small herd of goats, and started building a cheese plant.

We've been making cheese going on 8 years now, and have expanded into sheep and cow's milk production, in addition to our goat's milk varieties. Unlike most of the cheese producers around us, we focus on raw milk cheeses with natural rinds. Many of our varieties are inspired by cheese I encountered while working in Europe.

  Here's a small gallery of some of our cheeses: https://imgur.com/a/zg0eaTz
We're just emerging from our kidding season and heading into lambing. It's the most challenging period of the year, as we'll have 150+ kids and lambs arrive over a couple of weeks.

  https://imgur.com/a/USmPghf 
The shift has been fulfilling overall, and I still do work on some tech related projects which has been great. I have to some degree begrudgingly watched my peers' income shoot up dramatically over the last 12 years, while I have to work twice as hard to bring home the same amount.

Overall though, it's been net positive for my family, and while I've tried to quit farming at least half a dozen times, I was never able to bring myself to make the break.

"as we'll have 150+ kids and lambs arrive over a couple of weeks."

Holy cow can you give more specs on your farm?

In the grand scale of things, we're pretty small. We milk just under 100 dairy goats, and have about 150 goats total on the farm (the other goats being a couple of breeding bucks, and some kids of various ages that will be milked in future years.)

I'm somewhat smaller than I was two years ago - we scaled back a bit in 2020, as the pandemic seriously killed cash flow for a couple months.

We produce our own sheeps milk too, but on a much smaller scale. We also pick up cows milk from a neighbouring farm. I'm expecting this year to process around 100,000 liters of milk, producing around 10-12 tons of cheese.

i applaud your move and glad you pursue your dream. when you made the career change, what was your net worth?
I haven’t left the industry but do live rurally and have considered getting some sheep for personal cheesemaking. Do you also shear them on any regular interval? Is that even necessary for any reason? If you do, do you sell the wool? I’ve seen it going in farmers markets for quite high prices, although I’m not familiar with the processing requirements.
I usually shear just before lambing, which is right now for us. Whether or not you need to shear will depend on the breed of sheep - some can lose their coats on their own, some will not.

For us it's necessary as our sheep get a 2"+ thick coat, which during our summers (last summer we hit 42C/108F, normally we peak at around 35C/95F), and having a thick coat can be deadly.

I put the fleece in the burn pile. I don't have the time nor inclination to clean and card the wool to prep it for sale. I imagine some people would take it to do it themselves, but at this point, I need one less thing to do, not one more. :)

Did not switch jobs, but got a huge land (with my amazing IT income) that used to be a quarry. The plan is to pump Carbon in the depleted soil to help climate change and build a fruit forest to share with local community (not doing it for profit). Too early for success story
"The plan is to pump Carbon in the depleted soil"

This sounds awesome. Can you elaborate? What does this look like and what are the costs involved?