Overall it's questionable on muscle efficiency. The main problem with scooters/skateboards is that beginners don't learn using second leg (it feels unnatural and takes practice). Thus getting tired with pushing with one leg.
Another thing at this form factor you can get electric skateboard, muscles are concern.
Muscle usage between a bike and a scooter isn’t even close. The leg you’re pushing with isn’t the problem, it’s that you’re supporting your whole body weight on one bent leg while you’re pushing, and effectively doing a one legged half-squat every time you transition from coasting to pushing and back. Add in the additional rolling resistance from the tiny wheels and the lack of mechanical advantage from gearing and overall you have something that’s only modestly better than jogging except when you’re costing down hill.
My experience is only with using skateboards for long distance, though similar should apply for scooters, but haven't tried.
If I haven't rode both bicycle and skateboards for distance for a while, I'd have exact same thought as you. From my experience of casual rider, it's opposite - I can easily go for hours on skateboard, while on bicycle I get tired and uncomfortable. I've ridden same bike paths 10-20 miles on bicycle and skateboard, and for me skateboard is easier. My guess because on skateboard I can change body position and muscles involved, can switch legs, push or pump. While on bicycle I'm locked in the same position, using same muscles all the time.
Jogging is way way harder than skate, I can barely jog 5 miles, but on skateboard 5 miles i won't even sweat.
I think more people are familiar with riding bycicle and thus it maybe easier for them to go longer distance.
But yeah scooter would be smaller and lighter,even electric powered ones.
Longboard would be even lighter. It takes some practice to start, but for city commute it's quite good and can't beat the portability.
I used a push scooter in Munich in combination with buses and trains. It was fine for short distances of like ~1.5km or less, going to/from transit stations, but past that distance it just gets fucking annoying. Standing up on a push scooter and constant pushing with your feet just isn't as comfortable as sitting down and pedaling.
Also, the non-inflated rubber wheels I had on the thing were very uncomfortable (and loud) on cobblestone-type roads. Almost infeasible to use, really. But otherwise it was a pretty convenient thing to have.
However, the limit on how good a bike is are defined by materials and geometry together. With strong, tight and shock-absorbing enough materials, you could theoretically create a race-quality bike in a form-factor like this.
When or if such things will appear is hard to say. The Bike Friday seems to be at the quality of a decent road bike but foldable into a suitcase (they've had the same basic design for twenty years so twenty years of materials improvement might create a pretty extraordinary thing).
See: https://bikefriday.com/ (relative to other comments, slightly larger than Brompton but I think more of a bike that really can be your only bike).
I have a Bike Friday (and I even visited the factory in Eugene OR to pick it up, which was fun). There's a clear difference between it and a Brompton, slow-fold vs. quick, essentially. I have gone on great plane trips with my Friday, but it wouldn't be very practical for taking on public transit, and it doesn't fold up much without coming apart, and that takes tools and time.
Bike Friday are pretty popular in the Willamette Valley, I guess some local pride. My neighbors have a couple and taken them all over the world, I think they put something like 60K miles on them by now. They look pretty goofy but seem to do the job.
I can't see myself on one of these things but I never had a commute where it would be necessary, in a pinch maybe it's the lesser evil.
A scooter has very bad stability. Your weight is centered, whereas a bike distributes force wider through each foot. Larger tires can handle most surfaces, while a tiny pebble, crack, or wandering ghost could flip a scooter rider into the nearest car or old lady.
Wheels are small, board is short, and center of gravity is high. It just takes a small pothole covered with leaves (so, not even winter), and the driver will fly forward (I did).
E-scooters are heavier, with larger wheels and longer boards, so they may be less accident-prone, but I've never tried one.
They’ve experimented from time to time with hubless wheels, which allow for a lot of flexibility in passing bits of the bike through the plane of the wheel when folded, but it’s never clear how they deal with shock - potholes in particular.
Spoked wheels have partial failure modes and those are important.
I wonder too if at these small dimensions you still want to copy the Brompton model, where a flick of the elbow practically assembles or disassembles the bike. Would a design that requires both wheels to be removed and reattached be more workable? Though removing rear wheels can be complicated greatly by the drivetrain.
The front wheel needs to be bigger I think. Not for comfort but for safety.
This makes me want to design one. Roughly, bigger front wheel, hard (no pneumatic) tyres. Suspension on the rear wheel; a low unsprung weight would make this effective.
It reduces the use case to short distances, not commute rides. But that's ok if it's small enough folded to be taken on a train/bus/taxi.
Intriguing design and it looks like they've sold enough to see some real-world success, but I can't help but think the headset must be under extreme torque with a 150+ lb person sitting on essentially a large lever.
That and the small wheels don't inspire confidence dealing with the typical curbs & potholes that one is likely to encounter in an urban environment.
What's the use-case for folding bikes like this? Is there a pervasive lack of bike racks in certain places that would necessitate stowing a bike in such small quarters?
I've been looking at folding bikes like this.. in my case, I'm a private pilot, and I'm looking for ways to solve the last mile issue of getting from my destination airport to somewhere fun to go - ie a nearby beach, or into town for dinner, etc. Size and weight are important in my use case, since general aviation aircraft don't have alot of cargo space.
This bike looks like it would be a decent fit, but I'm not sure I can convince myself to shell out 1500 bucks for it... So the search for a last mile solution continues :-)
Why not take an rideshare/taxi? It seems you'd be able to even optimally schedule the rides in advance. I wouldn't want to ride this thing on car-only roads.
I live in Michigan, and especially since Covid, many of the small towns in this state have no taxi or rideshare options. Cadillac MI is one example - big enough town that there's some stuff to go do, but only a single taxicab and no rideshare. The single taxi is fairly unreliable. The saving grace at Cadillac is that the airport has a courtesy car you can arrange to borrow, but that's more and more rare.
Ground transportation at a whole lot of the places I can fly to is just nonexistent or not at all reliable. I expect much of the rest of the country probably has similar issues..
Similarly I like to get very cheap ($40-$70) round trip flights to random town and explore around. Unfortunately my uber from the airport to the town is usually more expensive than the flight. Most small towns don't have much in the way of airport buses.
Out of Denver, and I use the date grid on google flights. Frontier and spirit fly to Miami pretty consistently for a $80 round trip, but most flights are to like bentonville, AR or similarly random places.
The key is to people able to take a flight at any time and day, so you can always take the cheapest options. But also if you book 2 months in advance you can go anywhere in the Caribbean/central America on spirit for $100 or so.
Not sure which destination you picked, but KCAD to Clam Lake Brewery is closer to 3 miles, and that's the general area that I'm usually headed to in Cadillac. I take your point about rollerblades, though, it's certainly an option!
From a British perspective it's quite often public transport, bikes are banned on the tube afaik and taking them on trains can be hit or miss, some routes require a specific (and hard to get) cycle booking, most local buses are a non starter and even intercity buses are a big problem (they will often require your bike be dissembled / be in a hard case bike bag thing).
There are none of those nice bike racks on the front of American buses here. The whole system is fairly hostile towards active travel.
> The whole system is fairly hostile towards active travel.
And even more hostile to PLEVs. Electric scooters still illegal (beyond a few set-up-up-to-fail rental trials), a 250W limit on eBikes, and no hope whatsoever of electric skateboards, OneWheels, and so on ever being legal on roads or pavements.
Yet still people wage war on the car, without any attempt to make alternatives more viable.
And despite the roads being at breaking point, the trains being overcrowded and ludicrously priced, and road safety/bike theft/weather deterring all but the most dedicated cyclists, somehow transport isn't even a significant political issue in the UK.
(London-centric politics doesn't help. Many Londoners, particularly politicians, don't seem to have a clue about life beyond the M25)
And even on train lines that do allow bikes, like the Liverpool-Manchester line, you probably won't get a full-sized one on at rush hour, and even feel anti-social with a Brompton. At least in the past; I haven't done it for two years. They're also handy for putting in the car for riding from where you park it, like on the city outskirts.
One use case is for cruisers (sail and power). Having some kind of go-machine to get from the marina to a real market is often preferred over taxis/rideshares due to cost. Some high-end marinas may have a car or something to borrow, but that's rare.
What I've read from people who fall into this use case is the biggest requirement is a large wheel size. (This one wouldn't be great for that reason.) You'll want big wheels and fat tires to deal with, shall we say, less than optimal road conditions. The other main requirement is, of course, some kind of load carrier. Usually some sort of trailer, though several Dahons have a carrier. Dahons are the usual go-to brand.
Use cases: Traveling by train (Kwiggle fits under the seat), commuting everywhere, leaving Kwiggle in the car trunk with enough space left, because trunks are designed for handluggage size, and taking it for last mile, putting it in the camper van, in the sail boat in the sport airplane, in the boat, ...
Yeah I was very into personal electric last mile transport for a while, but realized you can't beat the city bike rentals for convenience and 80/20 efficiency. If they're not available I just walk.
My penny board fits in carry-on luggage, is allowed on airplanes, can be ridden inside airports, and looks cool as heck when you ride in the city. Plus it weighs like 3lbs and costs $100.
But it’s a little more work to ride than a bicycle
I've done SFO, CDG, NYC, OAK, and I think Frankfurt. Super convenient and the floor is smooth as butter.
The only trouble I ever had was at LJU, which is a tiny airport, where security wouldn't let me bring the skateboard as carry-on. Guessing they aren't as used to seeing weird stuff happening.
We are swiftly destroying the planet because people don’t want to look goofy in a small car, and insist on an aircraft carrier-sized truck. And now the same attitudes go for bikes too?!
“Tires with a smaller diameter have a higher rolling resistance with the same inflation pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally greater. The tire is flattened more and is “less round”.”
This only means that smaller diameter tires need higher inflation pressure for the equivalent rolling resistance (or rather, deformation). That only becomes a problem when you approach the limits of the material (eg. you can't inflate it any more).
Many types of fashions or styles have appeared dorky at some point in time and cool at another point. Maybe you can be part of the group that helps transition these bikes from dorky to cool!
Personally, I have a folding bike with small-ish wheels; yeah, it looks quirky, but it works well and fits in my closet, trunk, etc. so I don't care. I'd maybe buy the kwiggle too if I could afford it
The bicycle is a real pinnacle of beauty among human invention. When I think about the concepts of "function" and "form" in design, they are at peak marriage in a bicycle (I need not even point to a specific era). I'd own 10 if I had the space.
The folding bicycle is bastardized version that shoehorns the concept of portability at the expense of nearly every other quality except "gets from point A to point B".
I'm likely wrong and they probably are a great solution for many but goodness.. I love normal bicycles too much to look at a folding bike with anything but cringe.
I get random compliments on my Brompton. Like seriously, an old lady stopped on the sidewalk while I was unfolding and said, "That's a beautiful bike." Also teenagers yowling "Nice bike!" as I cruised by. It's weird.
It's a bit of a chicken and the egg thing. I thought the same thing when I lived in America. I moved to London where Bromptons are very popular (invented here) and I saw so many people of all kinds riding these tiny-wheeled bikes that I no longer find them to be dorky. Just utilitarian.
Genuine question, do you seriously worry about that? I mean, what are you concerned about? That people would think you uncool? What sort of people would think that? People you want to think highly of you? Your position seems so strange to me, I'm just trying to understand it.
I mean it's the same as fashion for me. I could wear poorly fitting clothes and poorly matched items of clothing, but I don't.
I care about how I look and present myself. That's not exactly unique, and it doesn't have to be strongly tied to me caring if people think I'm "uncool".
I'm not suggesting it's unique, I'm saying I don't understand it. If you don't strongly care, why does it matter? Are you suggesting your opinion on how to present yourself is not influenced by others? In which case, how do you decide if something is good?
This is not at all like poorly fitting clothes. The bicycle is clearly used as designed.
I suppose what I don't understand is that I embrace unusual. Something that raises a discussion is partly what makes something interesting and worth doing. It seems to me you present the question around fashion as one of fitting in, and that seems a somewhat depressing view of the world when laid out so starkly.
Even though of course I care about what people think about me, I would never admit that as being the reason I would dismiss something a priori. It's that bit that puzzles me most - your openness to being subject to the whims of fashion.
> and that seems a somewhat depressing view of the world when laid out so starkly
> It's that bit that puzzles me most - your openness to being subject to the whims of fashion.
So it's not my choice to consider how I look (in fashion or with my choice of bike), it's that I'm open about it?
> Are you suggesting your opinion on how to present yourself is not influenced by others?
I don't know why it has to be analyzed so deeply. I consider the appearance of the things I buy. I consider both if I like the look and if I think others would like the look. Clothes, shoes, cars, in this case a bike, etc. Some things are pleasing to the eye. Other things are ugly or dorky or weird, which most of the time I'm not looking for in a look.
More than look I am seriously worried about stability when hitting a pothole. With its small wheels and high riding position, the bike is targeted at people would literally want to fall flat on their face. I would not dare to ride anything with wheels smaller than 18".
Note that Kwiggle is the only folding bike with handluggage size. That is very important, because handluggage fits everywhere. So does the Kwiggle: Under the seats in trains, in backbox of sailing boats, in the airplane,...
I think the Brompton with their 16” is the lowest I’d want a grown adult human to ride. Even in urban areas, there’s lots of uneven surfaces, speed bumps, pot holes, cobbles, you name it.
So even 18” is a compromise - I live pretty rural and a 29” MTB with chunky tires and full suspension is as comfy as it gets, but also a must for rooty singletrack etc
FTA: effortlessly 25 km/h with the folding bike, without much pedaling
25 km/hour is fairly fast for a regular ’upright’ bicycle, and certainly not obtained effortlessly. I don’t see that being better for this bicycle with its small wheels.
And this is even more upright, aerodynamics doesn't like to get cheated no layer the size of the wheels. 25 km/h is close to the speed (not quite there, but almost) where people on particularly upright bikes start folding down their upper body to strike a deal with aerodynamics if they need to go faster.
I'm pretty skeptical about "effortlessly 25 km/h with the folding bike, without much pedaling". Other small-wheel folding bikes I've tried (of, I'm sure, much inferior quality) were not so efficient. Awesome if true.
they do have gears that help with that, I think. Can be seen in the promo videos from the side. Also, the riders are peddling very slow for the speed they are going.
Due to the moving saddle you use more muscle groups and because of the seating position there is much more pressure on the pedals. You use your weight much more with this bike than an ordinary bike where all the weight on the saddle.
The question to ask is: how do you carry your hand luggage with the bike that fits in the hand luggage?
Brompton can sorta solve this by having front and rear cargo carry (bias: I own an older Brompton and have travelled from seattle to california by train with it. see also knockoff versions of it like https://jcat.bike/ )
I've spent a long time with folding bikes over the years. My advice: bite the bullet and buy a Brompton[1].
Yes, Bromptons are expensive. But they ride like a bicycle, have gears, a stiff enough frame, luggage racks etc. There's very little compromise. The fastest I've done on mine is 45 kph and I've ridden 70km in a day. I carry it on and off buses and trains multiple times a day without issue.
In the past I had an A-bike[2]. It's a fun and cute little design but the wheels are absolutely tiny and has no gears. You feel like you're riding a folding contraption rather than a bicycle. The build quality was rather plasticky too. I like the idea of an A-shape with telescoping tubes. It's quite an ingenious fold.
I've also ridden (but not owned) a Pacific CarryMe[3]. The ride experience again suffers for the short wheels and no gears, but it could be useful for some. The fold still leaves you with quite a long package.
I'd love to try the Kwiggle bike. I don't think the strange seat will cause as many problems as people think, but I suspect the overall ride experience to be a bit bouncy and flexy. Maybe it's worth it for the small fold.
For a more out-there design I think the Halbrad/Half-Bike[4] could be quite nice but it never really got past the prototype stage. Under-seat steering is a bit of an adjustment too.
For shorter rides the saddle thing can be no biggie, but on long distances your butt will curse at that thing. Saddles are more important than people would acknowledge.
It was a difficult decision for me to spend 1.300 EUR in a Brompton, but I don't regret it a little bit. I have to admit I didn't use any alternative as a long term foldable bicycle, but after 3 years with the Brompton I don't have a single complain. Great quality, minimum weight, nice riding, fast un/folding. Everything you would expect from a portable bike.
Regarding the cost, I'm quite sure I could sell mine for more than 800 EUR while any other alternative would lose at least 50% of the value and probably require more maintenance.
Ah, another Beixo driver. I really liked the idea of the shaft drive, but I couldn't get used to the elastic feeling in the drive train. I still somewhere hope I rode an old model and everything is better now, but my guess is it's an integral part of the concept of a shaft drive on a bicycle.
Oh, I didn't realize you could even buy them direct now. I was looking at >~£1200 in shops or ~£1400 for the models in stock where I got mine. (The cheapest used to be single speed, and 3-speed is stretching it for non-trivial hills like the scarp round here.)
I'll second that. My dad had a different English folding bike in the 1980s, got rid of it and got a Brompton that he kept for 30 years. I had a Dahon that was ok I guess but the Brompton was way better. The Dahon had lots of frame flex and the folding headset, folding pedal, and flimsy seat post never worked right.
Bromptons are fantastic but there are many folding bikes with gears for much much less money. Decathlon Oxylane 120 retails for €289, with taxes, for example. It's not a Brompton, but for 1/4 of the price it doesn't need to be.
Build quality and longevity. After five years of daily use you will be able to resell your Brompton for 80% of its initial price, while I would guess you would be lucky to get more than $100 for your old Decathlon.
The most you can lose out on the Decathlon is those €289, whereas 20% of the quoted Brompton price of $3800 is double that :)
Resale value is important in the sense that you know you are risking at most X, which with Brompton sounds to be €600 — in case you dislike it or don't have a need for it anymore, or are in a need of cash, so the risk you are willing to take is still larger.
Ultimately, as with anything, if Bromptons are really of such a high quality, the best purchase is a used Brompton which you might be able to resell for the same price you got it at. If you really end up using it to the max, you can resell it early and get a new one specced to your liking.
For something you'll end up using daily, the most important thing is quality, and then you should look for the best price next.
My understanding is that Brompton have a patent on their particular fold configuration and so no one can copy it. I’m very much of the opinion that that fold is the most compact while keeping your cycling position close to that of a normal bike. Every other compact folding bike is fighting for a design against that patent, and it can’t be done. This looks to me like one of those designs, if the designers had been able to independently develop a fold without infringing Brompton they would have come up with something very similar to them, not this strange contraption.
You can see the Brompton influence, one pivoting wheel and folding cross bar with a 45deg hinge. But they have had to compromise in order to not infringe the design resulting in a very odd seat design.
I have spent many many hours trying to design a fold as good as Bromptons and haven’t managed too, it’s just too perfect.
Hmm, will have to dig into it and do some research as, if it is expired, why has no one copied the design?
Edit:
It seems to have been proven in court that they have copyright (rather than the old patent) of the design. A bit like the coke bottle design I suppose.
I did and I didn't regret it for a second, it sees tons of use and is pretty much indestructible. The design is timeless and the second hand market for Bromptons is pretty good, they hold their value better than any car I've ever owned. The first five minutes require some care but after that it's super stable and very low on maintenance given the complexity of the folding. It's small enough that it fits the cargo space in my car where it normally lives so that I always have a bike with me wherever I go.
If there is a downside that would be that even though the wheels are quite a bit bigger than the ones of the bike showcased here that the tires are very high pressure and need frequent topping up.
I'm not parent but since this is framed as if it's a 'gotcha' question ..
a) yes, when it's used anti-competitively; which it almost exclusively is. I haven't been sold on the idea that idea exclusivity funds creative and public works and value-stores. I tend to believe that capitol does that -- and I think capitol can be generated regardless of copyright state.
b) Yes, I have a cc0 1.0 license on anything I release outside of the contracts i'm beholden to from other entities. My thingiverse profile, for one, is filled with general purpose models and assets that are all licensed cc0 1.0 -- these took real person-hours to produce and have actual value for some folks.
other than the occassional irritation with persnickety users here and there I enjoy the work and view it as a social good -- I hope others find the work valuable and use it themselves; surely others exist with the same motivations.
The concern is obviously not that copyright is inherently immoral, or whatever you're insinuating, even though there are valid objections against the current status quo of multi-century copyrights.
The concern is that they're double-dipping. They had a patent. Patents expire after 20 years, but give you exclusive right to use an invention in the meantime. After a patent expires, what's supposed to happen is that anyone can make use of it.
After the patent expired, they started abusing copyright to kill competition.
It's incredibly unethical to try and have it both ways. They had their patent. Their patents is gone. Competitors should be allowed to use the technology in that patent, without worrying about a random court for some forsaken reason allowing them to abuse copyright to stop competitors from being able to compete.
For a small island with a very British habit of regular, unnecessary self-crippling, there's quite a lot of innovation going on here. Just not a lot of self-congratulatory "disruptive" internet BS innovation.
e.g. ARM, Dyson, the RepRap project, the Raspberry Pi, the Oxford/AZ vaccine, Rolls-Royce jet engines. Graphene. The micro-satellite. Vantablack. The genuinely trailblazing .gov.uk project. Quorn. Cloning!
And most importantly, the tikka massala, the balti, and the Henry vaccum cleaner.
(And, someone told me the other day, bungee jumping. Sorry about that)
I have no idea if our IP regime is worse or better than anywhere else's; we do not have a tradition of crazy software patents, though, so my guess is better, not worse.
I think the dismay is about trying to use copyright to slither around the expiration of a patent, if that is what is going on.
I like the Brompton and tried one in a shop, but decided I couldn't see springing $1400+ for one unless I was sure I would use it a lot, so I would possibly start with a lower cost folding bike and see how I liked it. That was pre-pandemic so I put the whole thing aside.
I'm not concerned about travelling with the bike. The attraction of a folder to me is just an easier time getting it in and out of an apartment for commuting purposes.
I would not recommend starting with a lower cost folding bike. When I was shopping for a folding bike 8ish years ago I tried out a bunch of different bikes. Most folding bikes feel pretty squirrely and harder to ride than a typical bicycle. Larger wheels help but then the extra size cuts down on the benefits of having a folding bike. Bromptons were the only folding bikes I tried that felt good to ride as soon as I tried them. If you start with a cheaper bike, you might get used to it but you might hate how it handles and avoid using it as a result.
Filing for a design patent should invalidate any claim to copyright on the features of the design that are claimed in the patent. Pick your IP protection lane, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
> Filing for a design patent should invalidate any claim to copyright on the features of the design that are claimed in the patent. Pick your IP protection lane, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Oh, I so wish that were true.
Software is the poster child for multiple IP regimes applying to the same thing, with copyrights applying twice over (source code and object code/binary executable) as well as patents. Patents can in theory also be applicable to the compilation of source code into object code, but as far as I'm aware no one has pursued a case on that basis, and in any case open source compilers are now standard.
But it gets even crazier when you start adding trademark and trade dress (ie. "look and feel" etc.) into the mix.
Just about the only form of IP that in practice is invalidated by the other forms is trade secret, as the others all involve some form of disclosure or publication.
In the U.S., copyrighting a design merely means you can't reproduce the design documents. It has no effect on the design of an actual product (which would be covered by a design patent, which has a lifetime of 15 years).
(Brompton is a UK company, so this wouldn't apply to UK-based competitors, but it would protect US-based competitors.)
EDIT: it looks like the EU actually has similar rules. Brompton is very likely going to lose this case, and is probably just counting on the court proceedings to delay this competitor's entry into the market. Expect a flood of Brompton-likes when the lawsuit settles.
That confirms my point, the “knock off” makers are unable to optimise the design significantly further than a “real” Brompton. They have decided that the overall design as is perfect as you can get (other than component/manufacturing improvements).
Due to copyright regulations and court orders in the UK and EU the knock off can not be imported and sold.
The Brompton is a much better folded bike (it's a lot smaller, it actually stays folded, it doesn't have exposed greasy parts when folded, you can use it as a shopping cart, etc).
High end Terns (Verge) are more like a normal bike with good components but they are nowhere near as compact when folded (likelihood of walking it into a shop and not getting yelled at is nil, unlike with the Brompton), they don't have as good commuter accessories as the Bromptons and they ride much stiffer (which is good or bad depending on what you are doing with the bike).
I own a Tern Verge myself. Got already > 1'200 km tracked, although not using it that often. Beside some ... issues (a pedal broke, the brakes need some adjustments from time to time and one tire (that I changed myself, I have to add) loses some air over time) I really love it. Especially being able to push it and not having to carry it when it is folded is a big plus for me.
I've had an A-bike in the past as well, and while I like the idea in principle, it's essentially a scam, due to the extremely low-quality materials - some components in the transmission are made of plastic, and they're bound to break rather quickly (I think it took me just a few months, even with around 20 km/week).
Had one for a bit, very small wheels, was kindof fun but in London its just easier to have a normal bike and arrange your commute so that you use it, rather than carry a small bike around.
I also had a Strida, really nice design and a good balance between usefulness and foldyness
i owned an A bike for like a week. they are unrideable. entirely and totally unrideable on real roads of any kind unless you want to damage your prostate.
I use mine in two ways:
1) Multi-modal commute. I ride my Brompton to and from the train station on both ends of my commute, about 2 miles per segment.
2) Weekend/vacation cruising, if I'm going somewhere on a car or ferry, it's easy to take the Brompton along.
I have a dahon mariner bike. I like it even though I lack the boat it’s supposed to pair with (I put it in my car). It doesn’t fold as small as the bromton, but I think the wheels are bigger.. it’s useful to have the bike when traveling, dropping car at shop. I think I like the Danone better than my brothers bromton e-bike (which he won in a raffle.. lucky). Ebikes are great though.
I use my Brompton as an alternative to walking. It is good enough to be my only bike and practical enough that I have no inclination toward a special wardrobe.
I have a Dahon Briza, with 24in wheels. The main thing was that a couple of them can be easily loaded in my car. Otherwise I just ride near my home.
I am not totally satisfied, but it is OK. I'll probably change the crank gear to be larger, the very lowest gears aren't useful right now because they are so slow.
I also can't ride it without having at least one hand on the handlebars.
Did you ever look at the Strida? It was designed in response to the Brompton, with a simpler fold and the ability to wheel it around on its actual wheels while folded, rather than little casters. It doesn't fold quite as small as a Brompton (it's more golf-bag like), but the footprint is similar if there's something to lean it against.
I'm very happy with mine, and it has most of the advantages you list - luggage rack, real bike feel (my longest day is apparently 64km and top speed 64kph). The sensitive steering takes a bit of getting used to the first time but you adapt quite quickly. For me the simple fold (and, sure, lower price) feels like a big advantage compared to the Brompton, which is what several of my friends have.
it's either brompton or strida. other bikes are just dumb. tern. dumb. moulton dumb. pacific cycles dumb. dahon dumb. birdie dumb. bike friday , kinda dumb. old raleigh folding tanks ....the list goes on. any bike with under 16"" wheels is also totally stupid . retardedly so, unless it's for some niche clown world where bumps don't exist and you don't ride the thing farther than a mile.
What do you have against bd-1/birdies ?
Outside of the lock clip that could be improved, it has very few compromises and can be maintained/upgraded without proprietary parts.
Yeah, I'm going to second this. Even the 16" wheels on a Brompton are pretty miserable on bumpy roads (Boston); the Kwiggle has even smaller wheels.
The fold on a Brompton is just about perfect. It takes no time at all. I'm a little annoyed to find that they're using copyright to keep a monopoly on it, but certainly not so much that I'm going to give it up.
I tried out a Tern, a Dahon, and some random ancient thing. I've never regretted spending the extra coin on the Brompton. The fact that all the greasy bits are in the middle when it's folded means you throw it in your trunk without thinking about it. It means you put it between your legs on the subway without thinking about it. The fact that it folds in seconds means you don't miss your train fumbling with it at the fare gate.
The only downside I can see is like half the parts on the thing are bespoke. Replacing a derailleur, for instance is not something your average shop can do. Ditto the shifters.
It's the Apple of bikes: the tight integration of the components gets you an absolutely magnificent package (at a premium price), but you get some lock-in as a result.
Dunno. It looks like you get fenders and a bunch of little upgrades like the folding pedal and a nicer saddle. Oh and a light and the luggage block some standard. The folding pedal is a nice touch, not gonna lie. I've got it on mine. Essential? Probably not, but it's one less thing to clip your shins on as you're running for the train. The package, nice as it is, is still a little awkward.
They've reorganized their product lines since I got mine. I've got a two speed with flat bars and fenders, all steel (i.e. no titanium). I'd say that three speeds is probably a worthy upgrade unless you live somewhere dead flat (and the two speeds are spaced too far apart for my liking, I'd add). Even the flat bars are pretty upright if you're used to a road bike.
Of other note, if you have a long inseam, you'll be getting a bigger seat post. I'm a 34" inseam, and I had to get the extendable seat post to get the seat high enough.
Get the one with the folding peddle. Seems like a minor thing. I’ve left mine unfolded because I was being lazy. Once. It makes that much difference in my experience.
The Brompton is bigger and heavier than this though. The Brompton A line is 25.3" x 23" x 10.6" and 25.6 lbs (64x59x27cm and 11.6 kg.) This is 21.6" x 15.8" x 9.8" and 20.9 lbs (554025 cm and 9.5kg.) Nearly five pounds lighter, 7.2" shorter and 3.7" shorter - that's a big difference for some of these use cases.
For example, lugging it around on public transport, or bringing it on a plane, or just dragging it around a city for the day - this thing easily wins, there’s just no comparison. I haven’t rode one of these so of course I can’t say, but the fact that they rode it all around the entire IJsselmeer (one of the largest lakes in the world) - which is a serious bike ride even on a normal bike - is a pretty good sign that this bike isn’t terrible to ride on, even if it may not quite be a Brompton. So the comparison becomes “decent portability and excellent biking” vs “excellent portability and decent biking”. I think that’s a fair tradeoff. If anything, I wish it would go further - give me half the size and a mediocre biking experience and I’d buy one in a heartbeat.
A discussion about folding bikes would not be complete without mentioning Helix. Helix folds almost as small as a Brompton but has 24” wheels and standard bicycle components such as disc brakes, Shimano/SRAM drivetrain etc.
Also the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space. It also fits in a standard airline luggage without any disassembly which few other folding bikes can claim.
The frame is full titanium including the locking mechanisms. It’s made in Canada and is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.
Thank you. Designing it was a labour of love. It’s function over form in every detail. No gimmicks, cheap materials or manufacturing short cuts like using castings for example. The welded frame components are all cnc machined from titanium blocks and the frame is robotically TIG welded in an argon chamber in our Toronto factory. We literally spare no expense in making them.
A well made titanium bike will easily outlast your Mazda and have better resale value. You’re getting outside and active. Lower carbon footprint. Never pay for parking. There’s so much more.
A bicycle is not a car, in the same way that a tablet is not a PC. If you want the former, the comparative price of the latter isn't relevant.
If you want to talk about why they're expensive compared to cars, IDK... cars are mass produced by robots in Japan and the bikes are small-scale assembled in Canada by people.
If you are not too picky about the exact model of replacement component, you can get most components at bicycle shops on the other side of the world. They are quite standardized.
We have a 10 year warranty on the frame. Replacement parts can be shipped worldwide in 3-10 days. The components such as brakes, drivetrain, wheels are industry standard and can be serviced by any bicycle shop.
Been a fan for a long time, in fact, my dream bike is a helix with a belt drive (and possibly a mid-drive motor). I do understand a belt drive might require a tensioner, but a man can dream! My current folder has a belt and it's a joy to ride on.
Additionally, I saw there are some electric options coming up in Q3, would you spare a moment to share your thoughts about possible future developments (i.e. if you see belt/ebike options expand in the future)?
Wow, a fan here on hn! Belt drive is possible but it makes for a heavier bike as it usually is paired with an internal geared hub. Also all of the innovation in cycling where maximum drivetrain efficiency is the goal is still firmly footed in chain drive (shimano/sram/campagnolo and a growing group of others). Also right now it’s not a priority as we have a lot of open projects: accessories, electric, scaling manufacturing.
Mid drive on the other hand would be a more challenging project because of the space and packaging constraints of our design. But, rear hub motors, which is what we’re using, have improved a lot recently; they are lighter, 2 speed, quieter and are considered to be comparable now. You also have a far more flexible upgrade path when technology improves as it’s not tied to the frame.
Electric Helix is going to be pretty ground breaking because up until now, the only other compact option was Brompton which is front wheel drive.
So maybe the dream bike is still possible, just a bit different.
Definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm excited to see how well can Helix make the pedal assist with rear wheel motor work. What I like in particular is that the setup will be more upgradeable than most mid-drive builds.
With respect to the belt drive, glad to hear that's still a possibility (albeit not a priority, which is fine). This is just a single data point, but if there was a Alfine 11 option with a belt, I'd pull the trigger and buy one right now. Well, perhaps I'd wait for the rear rack and the luggage case that I understand are in the works, those are killer accessories.
For me personally, the weight is less of a concern, at least in the vicinity of the low numbers where current helix builds are. To illustrate, my current 20 inch folder is about 15kg (belt+alfine 11) and I find that quite manageable.
In any case, keep rocking on, I hope you guys succeed - it's exciting to see such novel bike engineering happening here in Canada :)
Another +1 on the belt drive. I owned a Cube with a belt drive for a number of years and absolutely loved it. True "zero maintenance", and none of the other problem a chain brings (oil, dirty right-pants-leg, oily hands after putting the chain back on). Switched to an electric a few years back and couldn't find one with a belt drive under 5k.
Belt drive would need a bunch of frame changes though (mostly rear fork). Actually, looking at the design a bit more, it might work without modification.
Front wheel drive is nice in the winter - I hadn't thought of that until I watched a friend going up a steep snowy road with no problems, while 2wd cars were stuck. The electric motor on the front wheel, his own pedalling on the back wheel: Both wheels are powered. He had traction like a 4wd car.
I feel alfine (mushy, inefficient, wears out in not much longer than a chain drivetrain) as the only igh option (and explicitly making choices that prevent a rohloff being used) and no belt drive is a deal breaker for anyone with the kind of money to blow that is seeking something as convenient and premium as possible.
A bike that is always clean, never needs you to mess around finding a secure lockup and almost never needs service is the dream, and stopping 90% of the way there for want of 3kg seems so strange.
Overall that looks really nice, so thanks for sharing.
A bit of unsolicited feedback; listing the seat post options based on rider height (regular for shorter than 6’3”, and extra long for taller than 6’3”) is wrong.
Seat post height is based on how long your legs are, not how tall you are. If anything, you should list that by inseam.
As it is, I would have no idea which option is the most appropriate.
While twice as expensive the Helix looks much more like a decent bike at roughly the same weight. Like many folding bikes and scooters the Kwiggle looks like you could get seriously injured if you hit something (small). Before your face hits the pavement you would try stick your leg forwards but it has these scary looking spikes there.
I do have some questions: why don’t your bicycles have a spoiler above the wheels to prevent water and/or slush from spattering all over the rider? Are there attachments that can be separately added? Or are these meant to be used only in dry and clean(er) conditions?
That’s awesome! You are living the dream creating that.
Along the lines of my other comment, have you had any problems with Brompton around your pivoting rear wheel? Your design looks very different from the Brompton but I believe it’s that pivoting rear wheel they are quite aggressive about legally (where they can be).
That single sided front fork is genius!
I really hope you have incredible success, next time I’m looking for a folding bike I will certainly check yours out.
Thank you! The pivoting real wheel was actually invented by Mario Raimondi in 1963, 16 years before Brompton. The patent has long expired and in our case we are pivoting and translating, so it's a new take on this function.
I beleve what he is saying is that if they had used 16” wheels like the Brompton their fold would be smaller. But they have gone with larger 24” wheels for better durability and ride.
Going by those dimensions, Brompton takes 89l of space, whereas Helix takes 85l, so I guess they meant the overal volume when rounded up to a containing box.
This bike has a steeper head tube, reducing trail. But reducing rake (even if it goes negative), increases the trail again.
Stability is more complicated than just that, though... iirc bicycles have a bunch of nodes, including 1? 2? that are unstable but slow enough that riders don't notice they're compensating.
Thanks for posting that. A while ago I've been looking at Bromptons for my third bike (first is my long distance / gravel Kona, second is my cheapo 30y old city bike that I leave on the streets). I love Brompton's folding ingenuity (AFAIK they do fit a carry on as well on most airlines), but one thing I couldn't get past is their use of custom components. To me this thing is what Apple would do if they were making bikes. Beautiful, practical, hip, but man you'll rue the day when something breaks. All seems to be custom made by them / for them.
Major kudos for using off-the-shelf standard components. I can't over-stress this enough.
I'm not saying I'm pulling the trigger and ordering straight away (I've had this idea in my head for well over a year, so far just waiting for a good excuse / trip idea), but it's definitely made it close to the top of my list now. Even though it's pricy at around 3k Eur, given the titanium frame it's probably still well cheaper than equivalent Brompton (Chapter 3 or such).
One of the first thing I do when I want to buy a product from a newish startup is check if they've had a kickstarter and see the comments. If there are a lot of negative comments left unanswered like in this campaign, it's a massive red flag
A good rule of thumb I use for Kickstarter and startups in general is: is the world a better place with or without this product? If it is, expect that the process of getting an idea to market is very difficult and can get messy. I try to keep that in perspective. Platforms like Kickstarter help ideas come to life and having it as an option is a net positive for innovation.
Oh, I am very forgiving of campaigns running into issues and do expect a percentage of campaigns I back to fail. I don't treat kickstarter as a preorder. In the past when some campaigns failed and I could see from the update that they made a clear effort, I didn't ask for a refund even if they offered one.
I'm not so forgiving of campaigns running into issues and not replying to comments. In this case, I see that this campaign had a last update in 2017 and people complaining in the comments with no response I can see in the last 4 years.
And this kind of lack of communication that's shown in Kickstarter is not a good sign of the integrity of the company (and doesn't look good for prospective buyers).
Logistic problem are understandable, rising costs make sense but in that case, publicize it. I've seen some kickstarter campaigns that had such issues, had a lot of delays and had to sell retail in order to have enough money to deliver their backers reward but they were transparent, published the updates in kickstarter and even made it visible to everyone.
We do our updates on our own customer portal. Last update was about 3 months ago. Our portal has much better ui/ux, has a forum, access to the customers purchase history, one login vs two and some other benefits. Overall it's a far better experience for the customer.
You should comment then on the kickstarter page for any customers commenting there (who might not have realized that) and for people who are not connected to it who would be looking at your campaign...
And yes agreed, kickstarter's UI is really not great..
We were on track to complete Kickstarter deliveries by end of 2020. Still very late by all measures but the challenges of staring a manufacturing company from scratch cannot be understated. It's very hard. Even so, our backers for the most part supported us and anyone that didn't want to wait was offered refund. The pandemic threw a huge wrench into our plans and the last two years have been an incredible balancing act of managing run-away lead times, rising costs and other critical details. As an example, if you place an order for saddles right now, you're getting them late 2023/early 2024 and it's 30-50% deposit up front. Titanium costs just went up 20% and lead times increased by another 30 days due to recent world events.
As another post here mentions, it would be good for me to write about the lessons of our journey as it is unique and becoming more relevant as hardware startups seem to be on the rise. I will do that soon.
What is the production rate of helix? I have never seen one on a street. Compared to Bromptons, Dahons,.. produced in thousands a year. I guess, I have to wait to see a Helix in real, right? How many are there around nowadays?
In my experience (and maybe you'll correlate), all materials involve compromise; there doesn't tend to be a case where a material is outstandingly better in all categories.
Comparing titanium vs. the best steels, it's half the weight but also half the modulus of elasticity and half the tensile yield strength. I wouldn't expect there to be much weight advantage when comparing two tubes with roughly equal properties but maybe this is a case of "every little bit helps"?
If I remember rightly, titanium is harder to process also.
There were many reasons to choose Ti over steel, aluminum or carbon fiber. Steel would have significantly thinner wall thickness and would be less durable. Folding bikes get handled a lot, they get banged up, fall over, experience crushing forces etc. Carbon fiber is also less durable for this use case and aluminum would have been heavier for our design. Ti leaves no compromises other than cost of manufacturing but that is a great challenge to work on and there are many ways to optimize it which we are working on.
Would you be open to an entry level version in steel with single speed targeting 12kg or so? This would solve many of the manufacturing and part shortage issues.
Hell, I'd probably buy one without any parts which were standardized and likely to be customized anyway (saddle, brakes, bb and cranks, levers, chain, freewheel) and just move them over from a current bike.
> is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.
Do you have sources to back that up?
In the UK, the price on your website lists it as £2,025 (or £3,003 for the higher-end model). I can get a PlanetX titanium gravel bike for £1,799 - granted it's not folding, but you specified "folding or not"!
Definitely not spending any time on the internet soliciting business, you can check. Either the product speaks for itself or it doesn't, that's up to you - I have zero desire to market any wares. I read hn from time to time and saw a folding bike posts at #2 and thought I could enrich the discussion as there was no mention of Helix. If you're into folding bikes or cycling, why not find out about what else is available?
Also not avoiding any questions or intentionally lying. At the time I checked I missed the lower cost bike from PlanetX. Aliexpress would be cheaper as well, so I concede.
Your very presence in this thread exists to solicit business. I'm beginning to see a trend here when it comes to you and your company's representations of reality.
Can we do better than this? It is not welcome here, per the HN guidelines, and poisons everyone who sees it. It's also an accusation without evidence, and therefore meaningless in regard to the accused.
The comment in question, and others provided that evidence: statements from customers that they were still waiting on their bikes, several years after ordering.
If you want more than that, the ball is in your court to follow up on it.
> If you want more than that, the ball is in your court to follow up on it.
We don't have time to dig up evidence for other people's comments, and that claim, even if true, would not be evidence that they lied (delayed shipping are not lies), and not be evidence that they lied here.
I truly think it's the most clinically sterile word to describe what he (and his company... this isn't just a HN issue) are doing and continue to do. In his own response he didn't even challenge the statement that he is lying, but doubled down and says he's not soliciting new business even though he dropped in on a different bike thread to hawk his bike (er.... "down payment for theoretical hypothetical bike in the future") to anyone who was interested in the completely legitimate, in-production one that OP posted.
I think it is great you have managed to ship this but as another poster pointed out there were quite significant delays and frustrations with your backers. Some years backI looked it up again and saw forum discussion with further frustration.
If you have not already done so: you should transparently write up the lessons that you have learned and how you are going to address this for your electric launch to build up confidence. I remember your kickstarter and in retrospect continue to agree with my decision to not participate (I'm the happy owner of a Brompton that I can check in airline luggage instead).
I noticed on your site that a carrying case won't be available until Fall 2022 but I'm wondering whether you're imagining a case along the lines of a suitcase or something more like a backpack. My primary vehicle is a motorcycle and since moving to my current location, biking has entirely fallen off my daily schedule because I have no easy way to transport a bicycle and there are no good paths near me. Something I could strap to my back would be a solution better than I could've hoped for to my dilemma. It'd be an instant buy for me.
I've done lots of touring, including one 1600km trip in China, with a Dahon Speed P8, which has 20-inch wheels, which are likely a bit more pleasant than the 16-inch wheels of the Brompton. It's also a good option if you're looking for something lower priced. If you take the wheels and pedals off and pack it correctly it's possible to fit inside a Samsonite Oyster 29 suitcase which fits regulation dimensions to be accepted as normal check-in baggage on most airlines.
That said the bike in TFA looks interesting for multi-modal commuter use in e.g. Singapore or other such cities where a Brompton likely would not be accepted on the subway.
There's also the JZ88 (https://jz88.com/shop.html) which is claimed to be Singapore MRT-acceptable but I haven't used it.
I'd like to add a type of bike which is tiny but not foldable: a Minivelo.
I recently ordered a frame on AliExpress [0] equipped with internal cable routing and disc brake mounts, 2.25'' tire clearance. My build looks like a gravel bike. A gravel bike on 20'' with an 11 speed cassette, a drop bar and SRAM derailleur. Of course, not to miss a great carbon sear post. Including pedals and tires, the bike accounts for 10kg.
In order to take it on flights, I did sew myself a backpack to fit the bike. Taking the bike apart takes me 10 minutes. It is a tiny bit too large for hand luggage but ideal for being checked in.
For me the frame is a great compromise between size, stiffness and maintainability.
Velo orange [1] does offer a lovely frameset, too. It's just hard to get by in Europe (at a reasonable price point).
The thing is the Kwiggle is not just small but offers a new way of cycling which is much better for your body and uses more muscle groups than normal cycling.
You have to ride one to understand :-)
I'm sure Bromptons are great, but the prices are just ridiculous, and their marketing grates. I really don't need my bike to be handmade in London.
I have a Decathlon foldable. It doesn't fold quite as small as a Brompton, so I wouldn't want to be regularly taking it on public transport. But it's light and solid, folds easily and rides well at about one third the price.
£850 / 1090€[1] sure it's a bit expensive, but ridiculous really? I find it really funny to find such a comment on a forum where a big chunk of users are fine paying more than twice the price for a laptop.
Perhaps you're right that £850 is slightly below the ridiculous threshold (my recollection was that they were all £1000+). Though it seems that price omits arguably necessary features like mudguards.
Ha, interesting. I'm used to road-bike prices, and I also know what cargo bikes can cost, so when I read "ridiculously expensive", I imagined they cost like a cheap used car, not less than €1k... All depends on context.
Yes .. for me, it sounds expensive. A macbook is a rocket ship in terms of complexity vs. a bicycle. If copyright/patents went away, how cheap do you think you can produce a macbook? a folding bike?
This line of thinking is why everything was stupid expensive in the bay area (mattresses, bicycles, etc.) In Canada, I never paid more than 300 for a bicycle or more than 500 for a mattress. As OP said, I don't care if it is made in London, the price needs to be accessible to the masses for these things to solve our transport crisis.
Any bike that costs as little as yours does is probably in reality a pretty poorly designed and built bicycle. Bromptons are actually pretty cheap as far as bicycles go.
Since you have experience with folding bikes (but anyone's help will be welcome). Do you know if folding bikes are viable at all for a tall person? (about 197 cm / 6 ft 5.56 in)
It would be convenient for me to have one due to lack of space in my apartment, but from an external observer perspective they all look like too small and like I would need to ride hunched and uncomfortable, so I haven't really looked into them. But maybe it's just prejudice.
The easy answer is go to a bike shop and do a test ride. I guess it will depend more on your build - how much height is in your legs vs body for example.
I guess Al-Khwarizmi comes from the near East and from 9th century or thereabouts, so there are no local stores for them to try out, but online shopping works perfect since they deliver to all places and to all times.
Being similarly tall with longish legs (especially my thigh bone, important for eg. legroom in cars, airplanes...), I'd be extremely weary of jumping on a bike that's not suitably sized, no matter what claims people make how a smaller bike can fit you.
But what matters just the same is your arm length, body length and such: basically, how far down and in the front you can reach when properly seated above the pedals? I've only got "average" arms (my wingspan matches my height), so smaller frames mean hard to reach handlebars.
When you can't easily try a bike out, if it's not rated for at least 2-3" (5-8cm) taller riders than you are, I wouldn't get it because your balance and posture will suffer.
I'm 6 ft and ride a regular Brompton. They also make a telescopic seat post for taller riders, and the H bars are designed for a more upright riding position. They're surprisingly flexible in setup but I would definitely try and get a test ride.
Back in the mid 2000s I used to ride a 2 miles, 45 minute train, then 7 miles to work, and back, 5 times a week on a Bromptom. No problems, it was ideal.
I then moved and I lived at one end of the Central line in Essex, about a 1 minute walk, and worked a similar distance in West London.
Took about 55 minutes for the train to go, always got a seat in both directions.
However during summer I would ride on my Bromptom one way in the morning two or three times a week - took about 24 miles, or 2 hours, I'd then fold it up and take it home on the train.
My next move was too far to ride (45 miles each way), and less than a mile from the station at each end so didn't do much commuting riding then, and I moved to be a home worker in 2011, but I still ride my Bromptom around the country lanes. Occasionally think I should upgrade to something with more than 3 gears (it's relatively hilly where I live).
The bike itself I think cost £520 back in 2005, a new one of the same model is over £1k now, not sure what the second hand value is
I do a regular 25 mile commute one way across London, train back myself.
One of my routes includes Hampstead and Highgate, a decent amount of climb. I tried the 3 speed hire Bromptons, but went for the 6 speed when I purchased one. The upgrade was well worth the money, I doubt I'd be able to get up those hills on the 3 speed.
Just my comment to "but I suspect the overall ride experience to be a bit bouncy and flexy".
Kwiggle is a new movement for a flexy human being. Humans have been accustomed to putting their natural flexibility into a rigid posture on a bicycle for 200 years.
If you are thinking the bicycle from the anatomically view, you should invent a bicycle, that could be ridden upright with your flexible natural movement similar to the walking.
This was the first idea of the Kwiggle. And this is an opportunity to get back to your natural flexibility. After a little get used to, Kwiggle will adapt to your movement and not the other way round.
My biggest question is the combination of an extremely short wheelbase, small wheel diameter and, perhaps more importantly, the negative fork offset and the steep head tube angle. It seems it would be extremely easy to get thrown over the handlebars when hitting an obstacle... What's your reasoning behind this geo? Is it only space saving?
First of all: The fork offset is needed to obtain the same trail as with a normal bike. Large wheels need to bend the fork forward in order to reduce the natural trail for easier steering. Small wheels need to bend the fork backwards in order to get the same effect, because the natural trail of small wheels is to small. Just look on a shopping cart. The fork of the steering wheels is bent backwards too.
On Kwiggle you ride upright with a small wheelbase. So you have to adjust a little bit and you should pay a little bit more attention to the road. We have so many customers who have mastered that with bravour, so we stopped worrying about it.
Only with this small wheelbase it is possible to get a bicycle folded to handluggage size.
Sure Brompton has the most experience with these kind of bikes, but a steel frame on a bike that is supposed to be carried around?
If I would spend that amount of money I would probably go for https://www.r-m.de/de/bikes/birdy/ with additional benefit that it is a German manufacturer ;-)
I would wholeheartedly agree with this. I've tried Dahon, Tern, and one other frame I can't recall after pining for a Brompton for years but eventually bit the bullet and purchased one for myself. No comparison. It's my favourite bike for non-snow/slush conditions. Bike Friday was also on the short list but I didn't have the opportunity to try.
Good on you for doing 70km! That's about the limit of my comfortable endurance on it too. My record is~100km plus two ferry rides touring on the west coast but I admittedly walked it up the last two hills in the dark and I started to wish I was done around 85km.
What do you use for checked airline travel? I have the B&W hard case but haven't tried anything else. I think it is a linear inch or two over regulation if measured but nobody has ever stopped me or charged overage.
Your B&W case is about 4" over regulation, I believe, but I've read that last year many airlines began waiving the oversize fee for bikes (the weight limit still applies, but a Brompton plus the case should easily meet it). So tell the check-in agent there's a bike in the case if they ever decide to measure it.
I'm in the process of building aluminum cases for two Zizzo folders my gf and I just bought. I'm keeping them under the size limit to be safe, but because they also convert into trailers (to haul carry-on) and are relatively beefy, I'm bumping up against the 50 lb weight limit for economy seats. Right now I'm scratching my head as to how to incorporate casters and center stands with only 1 lb left to play with. :|
I have a folding portage cart with light weight removable wheels that attach via pushpin axles into metal receivers. Buy two extra receivers, drill holes in the side of the case, bolt on the receivers, and attach the wheels at the destination.
I haven't used it for this yet but plan was I would just take the wheels in my carry on. I also have not work out how to attach the cart to the bike yet.
Wike sells the individual wheels, pins, receivers (2) and even a diy box trailer kit(1) using these parts with instructions if looking to visualize this.
When I lived in Amsterdam, I rode a regular (non-folding) bike. It didn't have gears - but I didn't need them. If you do in-city riding, and your town is planar, gears are not necessary. And you won't be going 45 kph anyway.
On the other hand, if you ride 70 Km a day - why would you even need a _folding_ bike? That means you do serious cross-country riding. Use a regular bike.
The difference between the A-Bike and the Kwiggle is:
With an A-Bike you can make max 12-15 km/h, with a Kwiggle you will ride at relaxed 25 km/h and can do even much more.
On a scooter you stand still. On the Kwiggle, you move in natural upright position. We think upright movement is better than standing still. I am the owner of Kwiggle.
The seat is attached to the front column, not to the bottom bracket like on most other bikes (folding or not). This seems to give them a better portability return for sacrificing wheel base than other designs. So that's what they did, apparently: the side views look like on the brink of a wheelie from even the slightest acceleration or incline, all while not getting the CoG all too far from stoppie tipovers. The advertised 25 km/h will feel maddeningly fast.
That's what you get when you put a mountain biker on a road bike.
"One thing became very clear, and every mountain biker will certainly be able to confirm this: when riding uphill on a racing bike, there is always the conflict between riding standing up, which puts more pressure on the pedals, but you have to keep lifting your weight onto the pedal, and riding sitting down"
This is simply not what riding uphill on a roadbike is, unless you are not used to that position at all. The switch between seated and standing is not done to push harder, it's done to get a bit of variation in position and muscle use. It's not a conflict, it's an opportunity.
Except for those particularly steep slopes where you need to move your center of mass forward to not literally tip over, where it's not an opportunity but the only one. That threshold is sits in the vicinity of 20% incline, depending on size and seating position. This is with a wheelbase about twice as long as the kwiggle, and with a considerably lower center of mass. The author even seems to emit that, in a way, with the suggested tweak "So if you ride the Kwiggle in the mountains, always place the saddle a bit more forward". Good luck descending afterwards if it happens to be a route where you might actually need to brake.
The difference in the climb the author was so enthusiastically describing is simply that he went up more than 10% slower on the kwiggle than on the roadbike (92 minutes instead of 81). If you have ever measured endurance efforts in that game, for example on an ergometer, you will know what a huge difference 10% means.
I mean, nice publicity stunt and it surely was a lot of fun given the weather, but if you want to do that more, get proper equipment.
The Kwiggle is the most compact folding bike in the world and introduces a new way of riding a bike due to the moving saddle. This allows for more pressure on the pedals and thus more efficiency.
It looks absolutely amazing, but calling it "affordable" at €1600+ is a stretch. You can find non-electric folding bikes for under €200 that are quite sturdy and dependable (although not that small when folded).
A few months ago I bought a used folding bike for €100, equipped it with a motor and battery that cost less than €400, for use on train trips.
Nothing feels better than getting out of a long-distance train trip, unfolding your bike and going about your way in a different city... No taxis, no complex public transport map to understand, nothing but freedom.
They think its clever - I think most people would see through it and just be pissed. Not sure why companies think they can get away insulting the intelligence of their consumers (who, in this case, would have to be wealthy enough to afford their product and hence can be reasonably expected to be smart enough to spot it).
Yes, a motor + battery kit. It's really simple -- depending on the bike. For a folding bike you need to think ahead of where the engine and battery are going to go when folded. Mid-drive motors are much preferable, if possible (at the center of the bike, between the cranks).
There are two Chinese brands for the engines: Bafang and Tongsheng. Bafang has a better reputation; I used a Bafang for my first conversion (a regular MTB). But Tongshengs, in addition to being a little more affordable, are true pedal assist: power is proportional to the force you put on the pedals. It's a different experience from Bafang, but pedal assist feels better on a small folding bike, IMHO.
You can buy them on Aliexpress; look for vendors who have inventory in your country, which allows for faster shipping.
The 200€ one won't help you if you need to fly it. Even for road trips, for 2 adults in a city car, the size constraints could be enough to not bring two biggish 200€ along.
Basically, the choice comes to a 200€ bike you never bring along, or 800/1600€ bikes you can bring anywhere.
thanks for your comment. we have adapted the translation on the page.
Two of the most important advantages of a folding bike, namely the weight and the folding volume, are also the largest cost factors in the product price.
The price is a matter of quality of material and manufacturing and number of parts. The lower the weight, the higher have to be the quality, the more compact, the more high-tech parts are required. the more expensive will be the bike.
You can't produce a folding bike with only 10 kg and only 55 l of folded volume that can easily be ridden up to 25 km/h and is stable for people from 1,30 m to 1,95 m and up to 100 kg for prices below 2,000 euro, unless you produce 100,000 or more in a year or you sell directly to the customers.
By that measure an Audi R8 is affordable, after all it's literally just a Lamborghini Aventador in a much cheaper package, for the money it's an absolute bargain.
As bambax said - that's not what affordable means. Affordable is all about whether the target market can afford it, not whether it's good value for the materials and work put in.
At that price, if you are regularly commuting by train it would be cheaper and more convenient to have two bikes, one at either end. And you could have two pretty nice bikes.
I guess the appeal of the folding bike is more for irregular or infrequent trips.
Totally agree on the freedom aspect. Bicycles are ideal for inner city travel. Cars should be banned. I often use public bicycle shares when I travel now which is great because you don't even have to fold/carry or lock the bike up anywhere.
Yeah, there needs to be more secure bike parking. A reallocation of space from car parking to bike parking is an obvious solution. In Cambridge there is a bike parking facility that I would feel confident leaving a bike in for long periods but not every station has such a thing.
That being said, I know people who have done the two bikes thing, or at least one bike that "lives" at a railway station, for a long time and not aware of them having any problems.
This depends on where you live of course, here in the Netherlands most big/well trafficked train stations have one or more secured bike parking.
The NS (Dutch National Railway) sells a secured bike storage subscription starting from 75 euros a year. And you can do it cheaper if you use your bike frequently because at some stations the first 24 hours are free.
And if you have a cheap bike that you use just for your commute you can also just put it in the free bike storage and only move it secured if you know you will be gone for >2 weeks or whatever the limit for free storage is.
Yeah well Paris is much less bike-friendly than you would think reading all the English-speaking articles about it. There are more and more bike lanes but very few dedicated parking spaces for bikes, and almost zero secured ones. There was an attempt to build some near train stations, but they are always out of order (and you need a valid subway card to access them!)
Paris is also not flat, so unless you're super in shape it's difficult to use a non-electric bikes (depending on the journey, of course), and ebikes tend to be stolen much more than regular ones.
In other French cities, I don't know enough to have an opinion; I think Strasbourg is a little bit better.
I think the niche of "personal vehicle that you can take on the metro" is better filled by PEVs. Shrinking down a bike's drivetrain size is harder than just putting together a single wheel, some circuit boards, batteries, and an electric motor to make an electric unicycle.
A big advantage EUCs have is you don't have to bother with folding like a bike, just hop off, grab the trolley handle and walk on.
Electric scooters have similar advantages but they have to compromise range, performance, and compactness for their ease of learning.
I haven't had a chance to try a single-wheel electric vehicle as they are not street legal in Germany. But usually I vastly prefer riding a bike over an electric stand-up scooter. My weight is distributed much better on a bike, making the right more stable. On a scooter I cannot reliably raise one arm to give a turn signal. Not signaling can be quite dangerous on shared roads or narrow paths. I never see anybody else indicate their turns on these scooters, so it's probably not a personal problem. Did any manufacturer figure out a way to put easy to read indicator lights on these?
The other thing is that you actually get some light exercise on a bike. Most people with desk jobs would do well to move their bodies a bit more during their days.
One thing that's nice some times about scooters is being able to stand up tall, rather than get into a slightly hunched up position on a bike. The Kwiggle from the GP allows for quite a unique upright body position. So that may be intriguing.
they actually went up in price since then. swapped stock tires because they were rubbish and also bought better seatpost from upper model. removed all the unneccessary stuff like ringer or mudguards and this thing flies. im getting average speed about 18km/h on my rides and done about 4000km so far without any problems. this is perfect city bike in my opinion. if this thing had disc brakes it would be even better.
Hard to do proper disc brakes without hydraulics and hard to do hydraulics on a folding bike. The minimum bending radius of the brake lines is the limiting factor.
I've had them, also hybrids (boosted), compared to full hydraulics there is an enormous difference and I would definitely use a cable actuated system over rimbrakes if there was no alternative but only after exhausting every avenue of getting hydraulics to work. I like the option suggested by the other commenter of using an automotive flex hose for the folding part.
Disc brakes with cables work absolutely fine. Yes you're leaving some performance on the table compared to hydraulic, but most folding bikes aren't used for racing.
I have used hydraulic disc brakes and mechanical (wire) disc brakes. Yes, it's not the easiest to set up, but on my Hayes MX5, it works well enough that I have to seriously worry about locking my brakes :)
I used to like Decathlon but their quality has gotten worse and worse. The bike I bought there 3 years ago or so must be the single lowest quality product I've ever owned. Of course when it's new you don't notice at first until things start breaking. It wasn't the same model as yours so I hope you have better luck but I'll definitely NEVER ever buy a bicycle at Decathlon again. Utter garbage.
You may have gotten a bad item. I bought an MTB from them 4 years ago, transformed it to electric (which it's not designed for), rode 10,000km+ on it, on many different roads, in all kinds of weather, and the thing is still as good as new. It's really indestructible. I also bought bikes for my kids, and had friends buy bikes from them, etc. Never had any problem.
Most stuff I bought at Decathlon was of reasonable (above-expectations given the pricing) quality. But now I'll need to find another place to shop, as they (with a number of other French companies) are expanding in Russia, instead of shutting down: https://www.theretailbulletin.com/sports-and-leisure/decathl...
Going to be really inefficient and possibly unstable for anything that is longer than a few blocks or anything where the terrain changes. Bike wheels are large for a reason
That is still Brompton money, and the seat position looks terrifying. For a cheap folding bike with gears, my Tern Link B7 was £400 a few year ago (£600 now) and has been all my London transport when I travel down alone. It's a lump (12kg) compared to a Brompton, but it feels very solid to ride and gets into a train luggage rack.
You lean back as hard as you can and the regen breaking stops you. It works pretty well actually, if you look up "EUC braking test" on YouTube you're likely to find some videos that will give an idea of their braking performance.
430 comments
[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 343 ms ] threadAnother thing at this form factor you can get electric skateboard, muscles are concern.
If I haven't rode both bicycle and skateboards for distance for a while, I'd have exact same thought as you. From my experience of casual rider, it's opposite - I can easily go for hours on skateboard, while on bicycle I get tired and uncomfortable. I've ridden same bike paths 10-20 miles on bicycle and skateboard, and for me skateboard is easier. My guess because on skateboard I can change body position and muscles involved, can switch legs, push or pump. While on bicycle I'm locked in the same position, using same muscles all the time.
Jogging is way way harder than skate, I can barely jog 5 miles, but on skateboard 5 miles i won't even sweat.
There're various types of longboards and indeed some are quite high and you end up doing one legged squat. There many low to the ground models designed for distance specifically, that are much more comfortable to push, no squatting. Check https://www.instagram.com/p/Cbah6FrJuUv/ or https://www.gbomblongboards.com/longboard-skateboard-gallery
Cycling is more efficient that skateboarding, but surprisingly by a small factor. 24h record for cycling is ~900km, while on skateboard ~500km.
Longboards I think still have serious usability/safety issues compared to scooters and especially bikes.
Also, the non-inflated rubber wheels I had on the thing were very uncomfortable (and loud) on cobblestone-type roads. Almost infeasible to use, really. But otherwise it was a pretty convenient thing to have.
There are push scooters with inflatable tires (I've seen them here in the US) but not sure how much that affects the weight and portability.
https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/faltrad-300km
Ok, 300km/d is not for all people, but it show the possibilies.
However, the limit on how good a bike is are defined by materials and geometry together. With strong, tight and shock-absorbing enough materials, you could theoretically create a race-quality bike in a form-factor like this.
When or if such things will appear is hard to say. The Bike Friday seems to be at the quality of a decent road bike but foldable into a suitcase (they've had the same basic design for twenty years so twenty years of materials improvement might create a pretty extraordinary thing).
See: https://bikefriday.com/ (relative to other comments, slightly larger than Brompton but I think more of a bike that really can be your only bike).
I can't see myself on one of these things but I never had a commute where it would be necessary, in a pinch maybe it's the lesser evil.
Wheels are small, board is short, and center of gravity is high. It just takes a small pothole covered with leaves (so, not even winter), and the driver will fly forward (I did).
E-scooters are heavier, with larger wheels and longer boards, so they may be less accident-prone, but I've never tried one.
They’ve experimented from time to time with hubless wheels, which allow for a lot of flexibility in passing bits of the bike through the plane of the wheel when folded, but it’s never clear how they deal with shock - potholes in particular.
Spoked wheels have partial failure modes and those are important.
I wonder too if at these small dimensions you still want to copy the Brompton model, where a flick of the elbow practically assembles or disassembles the bike. Would a design that requires both wheels to be removed and reattached be more workable? Though removing rear wheels can be complicated greatly by the drivetrain.
This makes me want to design one. Roughly, bigger front wheel, hard (no pneumatic) tyres. Suspension on the rear wheel; a low unsprung weight would make this effective.
It reduces the use case to short distances, not commute rides. But that's ok if it's small enough folded to be taken on a train/bus/taxi.
That and the small wheels don't inspire confidence dealing with the typical curbs & potholes that one is likely to encounter in an urban environment.
What's the use-case for folding bikes like this? Is there a pervasive lack of bike racks in certain places that would necessitate stowing a bike in such small quarters?
Btw. In UK on certain routes or during rush hours you can only take a foldable bike onboard.
This bike looks like it would be a decent fit, but I'm not sure I can convince myself to shell out 1500 bucks for it... So the search for a last mile solution continues :-)
Ground transportation at a whole lot of the places I can fly to is just nonexistent or not at all reliable. I expect much of the rest of the country probably has similar issues..
The key is to people able to take a flight at any time and day, so you can always take the cheapest options. But also if you book 2 months in advance you can go anywhere in the Caribbean/central America on spirit for $100 or so.
There are none of those nice bike racks on the front of American buses here. The whole system is fairly hostile towards active travel.
And even more hostile to PLEVs. Electric scooters still illegal (beyond a few set-up-up-to-fail rental trials), a 250W limit on eBikes, and no hope whatsoever of electric skateboards, OneWheels, and so on ever being legal on roads or pavements.
Yet still people wage war on the car, without any attempt to make alternatives more viable.
And despite the roads being at breaking point, the trains being overcrowded and ludicrously priced, and road safety/bike theft/weather deterring all but the most dedicated cyclists, somehow transport isn't even a significant political issue in the UK.
(London-centric politics doesn't help. Many Londoners, particularly politicians, don't seem to have a clue about life beyond the M25)
What I've read from people who fall into this use case is the biggest requirement is a large wheel size. (This one wouldn't be great for that reason.) You'll want big wheels and fat tires to deal with, shall we say, less than optimal road conditions. The other main requirement is, of course, some kind of load carrier. Usually some sort of trailer, though several Dahons have a carrier. Dahons are the usual go-to brand.
It seems like the fanny pack of bikes: pretty useful but you gotta look dorky if you want to use it.
It's vain but I'd find it hard to believe I'm alone here.
But it’s a little more work to ride than a bicycle
The only trouble I ever had was at LJU, which is a tiny airport, where security wouldn't let me bring the skateboard as carry-on. Guessing they aren't as used to seeing weird stuff happening.
Citation needed
“Tires with a smaller diameter have a higher rolling resistance with the same inflation pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally greater. The tire is flattened more and is “less round”.”
But if I would live in a big city, I might get over that feeling, since it does seem practical.
Personally, I have a folding bike with small-ish wheels; yeah, it looks quirky, but it works well and fits in my closet, trunk, etc. so I don't care. I'd maybe buy the kwiggle too if I could afford it
The folding bicycle is bastardized version that shoehorns the concept of portability at the expense of nearly every other quality except "gets from point A to point B".
I'm likely wrong and they probably are a great solution for many but goodness.. I love normal bicycles too much to look at a folding bike with anything but cringe.
I care about how I look and present myself. That's not exactly unique, and it doesn't have to be strongly tied to me caring if people think I'm "uncool".
This is not at all like poorly fitting clothes. The bicycle is clearly used as designed.
I suppose what I don't understand is that I embrace unusual. Something that raises a discussion is partly what makes something interesting and worth doing. It seems to me you present the question around fashion as one of fitting in, and that seems a somewhat depressing view of the world when laid out so starkly.
Even though of course I care about what people think about me, I would never admit that as being the reason I would dismiss something a priori. It's that bit that puzzles me most - your openness to being subject to the whims of fashion.
> It's that bit that puzzles me most - your openness to being subject to the whims of fashion.
So it's not my choice to consider how I look (in fashion or with my choice of bike), it's that I'm open about it?
> Are you suggesting your opinion on how to present yourself is not influenced by others?
I don't know why it has to be analyzed so deeply. I consider the appearance of the things I buy. I consider both if I like the look and if I think others would like the look. Clothes, shoes, cars, in this case a bike, etc. Some things are pleasing to the eye. Other things are ugly or dorky or weird, which most of the time I'm not looking for in a look.
25 km/hour is fairly fast for a regular ’upright’ bicycle, and certainly not obtained effortlessly. I don’t see that being better for this bicycle with its small wheels.
https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/home-kwiggle-vorteile
I've never ridden one so I'm not in any position to judge it, but the position sounds similar to an elliptical bike.
Brompton can sorta solve this by having front and rear cargo carry (bias: I own an older Brompton and have travelled from seattle to california by train with it. see also knockoff versions of it like https://jcat.bike/ )
Besides that you can attach a standard bike pack (e.g. from Ortlieb) to the frame of the Kwiggle or carry a backpack, of course.
Yes, Bromptons are expensive. But they ride like a bicycle, have gears, a stiff enough frame, luggage racks etc. There's very little compromise. The fastest I've done on mine is 45 kph and I've ridden 70km in a day. I carry it on and off buses and trains multiple times a day without issue.
In the past I had an A-bike[2]. It's a fun and cute little design but the wheels are absolutely tiny and has no gears. You feel like you're riding a folding contraption rather than a bicycle. The build quality was rather plasticky too. I like the idea of an A-shape with telescoping tubes. It's quite an ingenious fold.
I've also ridden (but not owned) a Pacific CarryMe[3]. The ride experience again suffers for the short wheels and no gears, but it could be useful for some. The fold still leaves you with quite a long package.
I'd love to try the Kwiggle bike. I don't think the strange seat will cause as many problems as people think, but I suspect the overall ride experience to be a bit bouncy and flexy. Maybe it's worth it for the small fold.
For a more out-there design I think the Halbrad/Half-Bike[4] could be quite nice but it never really got past the prototype stage. Under-seat steering is a bit of an adjustment too.
[1] https://www.brompton.com/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-bike
[3] https://pacificcarryme.com/
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQIC138vmlE
Regarding the cost, I'm quite sure I could sell mine for more than 800 EUR while any other alternative would lose at least 50% of the value and probably require more maintenance.
Half the price of a Kwiggle [1]. Seems like a bargain to me.
[1] Comparing apples to apples, the base Brompton is a 3-speed for 850 euros. The 3-speed Kwiggle is 1690.
US dealers that sell them seem to start around $1600
Although to be fair I never worked for a company where there was at least one Brompton.
Having said that there’s something very British about it IMO. But I am not British.
Resale value is important in the sense that you know you are risking at most X, which with Brompton sounds to be €600 — in case you dislike it or don't have a need for it anymore, or are in a need of cash, so the risk you are willing to take is still larger.
Ultimately, as with anything, if Bromptons are really of such a high quality, the best purchase is a used Brompton which you might be able to resell for the same price you got it at. If you really end up using it to the max, you can resell it early and get a new one specced to your liking.
For something you'll end up using daily, the most important thing is quality, and then you should look for the best price next.
You can see the Brompton influence, one pivoting wheel and folding cross bar with a 45deg hinge. But they have had to compromise in order to not infringe the design resulting in a very odd seat design.
I have spent many many hours trying to design a fold as good as Bromptons and haven’t managed too, it’s just too perfect.
Edit:
It seems to have been proven in court that they have copyright (rather than the old patent) of the design. A bit like the coke bottle design I suppose.
https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/brompton-puts-the...
If there is a downside that would be that even though the wheels are quite a bit bigger than the ones of the bike showcased here that the tires are very high pressure and need frequent topping up.
Do you use CC0 for all your own work?
a) yes, when it's used anti-competitively; which it almost exclusively is. I haven't been sold on the idea that idea exclusivity funds creative and public works and value-stores. I tend to believe that capitol does that -- and I think capitol can be generated regardless of copyright state.
b) Yes, I have a cc0 1.0 license on anything I release outside of the contracts i'm beholden to from other entities. My thingiverse profile, for one, is filled with general purpose models and assets that are all licensed cc0 1.0 -- these took real person-hours to produce and have actual value for some folks.
other than the occassional irritation with persnickety users here and there I enjoy the work and view it as a social good -- I hope others find the work valuable and use it themselves; surely others exist with the same motivations.
The concern is that they're double-dipping. They had a patent. Patents expire after 20 years, but give you exclusive right to use an invention in the meantime. After a patent expires, what's supposed to happen is that anyone can make use of it.
After the patent expired, they started abusing copyright to kill competition.
It's incredibly unethical to try and have it both ways. They had their patent. Their patents is gone. Competitors should be allowed to use the technology in that patent, without worrying about a random court for some forsaken reason allowing them to abuse copyright to stop competitors from being able to compete.
e.g. ARM, Dyson, the RepRap project, the Raspberry Pi, the Oxford/AZ vaccine, Rolls-Royce jet engines. Graphene. The micro-satellite. Vantablack. The genuinely trailblazing .gov.uk project. Quorn. Cloning!
And most importantly, the tikka massala, the balti, and the Henry vaccum cleaner.
(And, someone told me the other day, bungee jumping. Sorry about that)
I have no idea if our IP regime is worse or better than anywhere else's; we do not have a tradition of crazy software patents, though, so my guess is better, not worse.
I like the Brompton and tried one in a shop, but decided I couldn't see springing $1400+ for one unless I was sure I would use it a lot, so I would possibly start with a lower cost folding bike and see how I liked it. That was pre-pandemic so I put the whole thing aside.
I'm not concerned about travelling with the bike. The attraction of a folder to me is just an easier time getting it in and out of an apartment for commuting purposes.
Oh, I so wish that were true.
Software is the poster child for multiple IP regimes applying to the same thing, with copyrights applying twice over (source code and object code/binary executable) as well as patents. Patents can in theory also be applicable to the compilation of source code into object code, but as far as I'm aware no one has pursued a case on that basis, and in any case open source compilers are now standard.
But it gets even crazier when you start adding trademark and trade dress (ie. "look and feel" etc.) into the mix.
Just about the only form of IP that in practice is invalidated by the other forms is trade secret, as the others all involve some form of disclosure or publication.
(Brompton is a UK company, so this wouldn't apply to UK-based competitors, but it would protect US-based competitors.)
EDIT: it looks like the EU actually has similar rules. Brompton is very likely going to lose this case, and is probably just counting on the court proceedings to delay this competitor's entry into the market. Expect a flood of Brompton-likes when the lawsuit settles.
Our shop has noted that Brompton bottom brackets are low quality. Often poorly aligned to the frame and the threading frequently needs chased.
Due to copyright regulations and court orders in the UK and EU the knock off can not be imported and sold.
The Brompton is a much better folded bike (it's a lot smaller, it actually stays folded, it doesn't have exposed greasy parts when folded, you can use it as a shopping cart, etc).
High end Terns (Verge) are more like a normal bike with good components but they are nowhere near as compact when folded (likelihood of walking it into a shop and not getting yelled at is nil, unlike with the Brompton), they don't have as good commuter accessories as the Bromptons and they ride much stiffer (which is good or bad depending on what you are doing with the bike).
Source: own both
I've had an A-bike in the past as well, and while I like the idea in principle, it's essentially a scam, due to the extremely low-quality materials - some components in the transmission are made of plastic, and they're bound to break rather quickly (I think it took me just a few months, even with around 20 km/week).
Had one for a bit, very small wheels, was kindof fun but in London its just easier to have a normal bike and arrange your commute so that you use it, rather than carry a small bike around.
I also had a Strida, really nice design and a good balance between usefulness and foldyness
https://www.strida.com/
This is an interesting idea, but I wonder if it collides into the electric scooter market.
I think dahon bikes are fairly nice, but I have not tried a brompton.
I have a dahon mu n360 with a variable transmission that I like quite a bit.
https://dahon.com/bikes/mu-n360/
However recently I bought two bikes direct e-bikes - pretty versatile and go off-road/to parks:
https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-elec...
I wonder how people use their folding bikes?
It’s a great tool.
I am not totally satisfied, but it is OK. I'll probably change the crank gear to be larger, the very lowest gears aren't useful right now because they are so slow.
I also can't ride it without having at least one hand on the handlebars.
Having fenders is nice, but they are very flimsy.
Price was a lot lower than a Brompton.
I'm very happy with mine, and it has most of the advantages you list - luggage rack, real bike feel (my longest day is apparently 64km and top speed 64kph). The sensitive steering takes a bit of getting used to the first time but you adapt quite quickly. For me the simple fold (and, sure, lower price) feels like a big advantage compared to the Brompton, which is what several of my friends have.
I really love my light aluminum non-folding bike that is pedal-powered... but if I would buy a folding bike, it would be electric-motor powered.
The fold on a Brompton is just about perfect. It takes no time at all. I'm a little annoyed to find that they're using copyright to keep a monopoly on it, but certainly not so much that I'm going to give it up.
I tried out a Tern, a Dahon, and some random ancient thing. I've never regretted spending the extra coin on the Brompton. The fact that all the greasy bits are in the middle when it's folded means you throw it in your trunk without thinking about it. It means you put it between your legs on the subway without thinking about it. The fact that it folds in seconds means you don't miss your train fumbling with it at the fare gate.
The only downside I can see is like half the parts on the thing are bespoke. Replacing a derailleur, for instance is not something your average shop can do. Ditto the shifters.
It's the Apple of bikes: the tight integration of the components gets you an absolutely magnificent package (at a premium price), but you get some lock-in as a result.
They've reorganized their product lines since I got mine. I've got a two speed with flat bars and fenders, all steel (i.e. no titanium). I'd say that three speeds is probably a worthy upgrade unless you live somewhere dead flat (and the two speeds are spaced too far apart for my liking, I'd add). Even the flat bars are pretty upright if you're used to a road bike.
Of other note, if you have a long inseam, you'll be getting a bigger seat post. I'm a 34" inseam, and I had to get the extendable seat post to get the seat high enough.
For example, lugging it around on public transport, or bringing it on a plane, or just dragging it around a city for the day - this thing easily wins, there’s just no comparison. I haven’t rode one of these so of course I can’t say, but the fact that they rode it all around the entire IJsselmeer (one of the largest lakes in the world) - which is a serious bike ride even on a normal bike - is a pretty good sign that this bike isn’t terrible to ride on, even if it may not quite be a Brompton. So the comparison becomes “decent portability and excellent biking” vs “excellent portability and decent biking”. I think that’s a fair tradeoff. If anything, I wish it would go further - give me half the size and a mediocre biking experience and I’d buy one in a heartbeat.
Also the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space. It also fits in a standard airline luggage without any disassembly which few other folding bikes can claim.
The frame is full titanium including the locking mechanisms. It’s made in Canada and is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.
https://www.helix.ca
Full disclosure, I’m the owner/founder of Helix. Happy to answer any questions related to it or folding bikes in general.
How can I justify that if my Mazda3 2008 is worth that much, and still runs perfectly fine?
If you want to talk about why they're expensive compared to cars, IDK... cars are mass produced by robots in Japan and the bikes are small-scale assembled in Canada by people.
Additionally, I saw there are some electric options coming up in Q3, would you spare a moment to share your thoughts about possible future developments (i.e. if you see belt/ebike options expand in the future)?
Mid drive on the other hand would be a more challenging project because of the space and packaging constraints of our design. But, rear hub motors, which is what we’re using, have improved a lot recently; they are lighter, 2 speed, quieter and are considered to be comparable now. You also have a far more flexible upgrade path when technology improves as it’s not tied to the frame.
Electric Helix is going to be pretty ground breaking because up until now, the only other compact option was Brompton which is front wheel drive.
So maybe the dream bike is still possible, just a bit different.
Definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm excited to see how well can Helix make the pedal assist with rear wheel motor work. What I like in particular is that the setup will be more upgradeable than most mid-drive builds.
With respect to the belt drive, glad to hear that's still a possibility (albeit not a priority, which is fine). This is just a single data point, but if there was a Alfine 11 option with a belt, I'd pull the trigger and buy one right now. Well, perhaps I'd wait for the rear rack and the luggage case that I understand are in the works, those are killer accessories.
For me personally, the weight is less of a concern, at least in the vicinity of the low numbers where current helix builds are. To illustrate, my current 20 inch folder is about 15kg (belt+alfine 11) and I find that quite manageable.
In any case, keep rocking on, I hope you guys succeed - it's exciting to see such novel bike engineering happening here in Canada :)
https://wheretheroadforks.com/chain-vs-belt-drive-bike-pros-...
A bike that is always clean, never needs you to mess around finding a secure lockup and almost never needs service is the dream, and stopping 90% of the way there for want of 3kg seems so strange.
A bit of unsolicited feedback; listing the seat post options based on rider height (regular for shorter than 6’3”, and extra long for taller than 6’3”) is wrong.
Seat post height is based on how long your legs are, not how tall you are. If anything, you should list that by inseam.
As it is, I would have no idea which option is the most appropriate.
Thank you, just what I was thinking!
> If anything, you should list that by inseam.
What you want to measure is the PBH (pubic bone height). It is very precise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yxZkHpAB4g
Helix 71.12 x 63.5 x 26.67 cm
Kwiggle 55 × 40 × 25 cm
While twice as expensive the Helix looks much more like a decent bike at roughly the same weight. Like many folding bikes and scooters the Kwiggle looks like you could get seriously injured if you hit something (small). Before your face hits the pavement you would try stick your leg forwards but it has these scary looking spikes there.
[1] https://helix.ca/#accessories
[2] https://www.helix.ca/store/?categoryID=3
Along the lines of my other comment, have you had any problems with Brompton around your pivoting rear wheel? Your design looks very different from the Brompton but I believe it’s that pivoting rear wheel they are quite aggressive about legally (where they can be).
That single sided front fork is genius!
I really hope you have incredible success, next time I’m looking for a folding bike I will certainly check yours out.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0001985...
> What countries do you ship to?
> Helix ships worldwide.
[1] https://helix.ca/support/faq/
Can you clarify what you mean by “the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space“
The Brompton's folded size is 585mm high x 565mm long x 270mm wide
The Helix is 580mm x 635mm x 230mm.
This claims stability is more determined by fork ~trail. http://avaghon.nl/download/Naloop_Bikestability-Forkrake.pdf
This bike has a steeper head tube, reducing trail. But reducing rake (even if it goes negative), increases the trail again.
Stability is more complicated than just that, though... iirc bicycles have a bunch of nodes, including 1? 2? that are unstable but slow enough that riders don't notice they're compensating.
Major kudos for using off-the-shelf standard components. I can't over-stress this enough.
I'm not saying I'm pulling the trigger and ordering straight away (I've had this idea in my head for well over a year, so far just waiting for a good excuse / trip idea), but it's definitely made it close to the top of my list now. Even though it's pricy at around 3k Eur, given the titanium frame it's probably still well cheaper than equivalent Brompton (Chapter 3 or such).
I'm not so forgiving of campaigns running into issues and not replying to comments. In this case, I see that this campaign had a last update in 2017 and people complaining in the comments with no response I can see in the last 4 years. And this kind of lack of communication that's shown in Kickstarter is not a good sign of the integrity of the company (and doesn't look good for prospective buyers).
Logistic problem are understandable, rising costs make sense but in that case, publicize it. I've seen some kickstarter campaigns that had such issues, had a lot of delays and had to sell retail in order to have enough money to deliver their backers reward but they were transparent, published the updates in kickstarter and even made it visible to everyone.
And yes agreed, kickstarter's UI is really not great..
As another post here mentions, it would be good for me to write about the lessons of our journey as it is unique and becoming more relevant as hardware startups seem to be on the rise. I will do that soon.
In my experience (and maybe you'll correlate), all materials involve compromise; there doesn't tend to be a case where a material is outstandingly better in all categories.
Comparing titanium vs. the best steels, it's half the weight but also half the modulus of elasticity and half the tensile yield strength. I wouldn't expect there to be much weight advantage when comparing two tubes with roughly equal properties but maybe this is a case of "every little bit helps"?
If I remember rightly, titanium is harder to process also.
Hell, I'd probably buy one without any parts which were standardized and likely to be customized anyway (saddle, brakes, bb and cranks, levers, chain, freewheel) and just move them over from a current bike.
Do you have sources to back that up?
In the UK, the price on your website lists it as £2,025 (or £3,003 for the higher-end model). I can get a PlanetX titanium gravel bike for £1,799 - granted it's not folding, but you specified "folding or not"!
Also not avoiding any questions or intentionally lying. At the time I checked I missed the lower cost bike from PlanetX. Aliexpress would be cheaper as well, so I concede.
Can we do better than this? It is not welcome here, per the HN guidelines, and poisons everyone who sees it. It's also an accusation without evidence, and therefore meaningless in regard to the accused.
There's evidence that this company has been misleading customers about order status for at least 7 years. How much more evidence do you need?
If you want more than that, the ball is in your court to follow up on it.
We don't have time to dig up evidence for other people's comments, and that claim, even if true, would not be evidence that they lied (delayed shipping are not lies), and not be evidence that they lied here.
If you have not already done so: you should transparently write up the lessons that you have learned and how you are going to address this for your electric launch to build up confidence. I remember your kickstarter and in retrospect continue to agree with my decision to not participate (I'm the happy owner of a Brompton that I can check in airline luggage instead).
That said the bike in TFA looks interesting for multi-modal commuter use in e.g. Singapore or other such cities where a Brompton likely would not be accepted on the subway.
There's also the JZ88 (https://jz88.com/shop.html) which is claimed to be Singapore MRT-acceptable but I haven't used it.
I recently ordered a frame on AliExpress [0] equipped with internal cable routing and disc brake mounts, 2.25'' tire clearance. My build looks like a gravel bike. A gravel bike on 20'' with an 11 speed cassette, a drop bar and SRAM derailleur. Of course, not to miss a great carbon sear post. Including pedals and tires, the bike accounts for 10kg. In order to take it on flights, I did sew myself a backpack to fit the bike. Taking the bike apart takes me 10 minutes. It is a tiny bit too large for hand luggage but ideal for being checked in.
For me the frame is a great compromise between size, stiffness and maintainability.
Velo orange [1] does offer a lovely frameset, too. It's just hard to get by in Europe (at a reasonable price point).
[0] https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600169443757/SILVEROCK-Chrome...
[1] https://velo-orange.com/collections/neutrino-mini-velo
I have a Decathlon foldable. It doesn't fold quite as small as a Brompton, so I wouldn't want to be regularly taking it on public transport. But it's light and solid, folds easily and rides well at about one third the price.
[1]: https://fr.brompton.com/shop/bikes/a-line?color=white&handle...
Like a macbook pro omits a headphone jack and ethernet ports?
This line of thinking is why everything was stupid expensive in the bay area (mattresses, bicycles, etc.) In Canada, I never paid more than 300 for a bicycle or more than 500 for a mattress. As OP said, I don't care if it is made in London, the price needs to be accessible to the masses for these things to solve our transport crisis.
It would be convenient for me to have one due to lack of space in my apartment, but from an external observer perspective they all look like too small and like I would need to ride hunched and uncomfortable, so I haven't really looked into them. But maybe it's just prejudice.
Being similarly tall with longish legs (especially my thigh bone, important for eg. legroom in cars, airplanes...), I'd be extremely weary of jumping on a bike that's not suitably sized, no matter what claims people make how a smaller bike can fit you.
But what matters just the same is your arm length, body length and such: basically, how far down and in the front you can reach when properly seated above the pedals? I've only got "average" arms (my wingspan matches my height), so smaller frames mean hard to reach handlebars.
When you can't easily try a bike out, if it's not rated for at least 2-3" (5-8cm) taller riders than you are, I wouldn't get it because your balance and posture will suffer.
Looking at comments, they come from western Spain, there's plenty of Bike shops in say Cáceres.
If I was spending €1000+ on a bike I was going to use for the next decade, I'd want to try it out first
I was hoping 9th century mention would give it away though.
I then moved and I lived at one end of the Central line in Essex, about a 1 minute walk, and worked a similar distance in West London.
Took about 55 minutes for the train to go, always got a seat in both directions.
However during summer I would ride on my Bromptom one way in the morning two or three times a week - took about 24 miles, or 2 hours, I'd then fold it up and take it home on the train.
My next move was too far to ride (45 miles each way), and less than a mile from the station at each end so didn't do much commuting riding then, and I moved to be a home worker in 2011, but I still ride my Bromptom around the country lanes. Occasionally think I should upgrade to something with more than 3 gears (it's relatively hilly where I live).
The bike itself I think cost £520 back in 2005, a new one of the same model is over £1k now, not sure what the second hand value is
One of my routes includes Hampstead and Highgate, a decent amount of climb. I tried the 3 speed hire Bromptons, but went for the 6 speed when I purchased one. The upgrade was well worth the money, I doubt I'd be able to get up those hills on the 3 speed.
Kwiggle is a new movement for a flexy human being. Humans have been accustomed to putting their natural flexibility into a rigid posture on a bicycle for 200 years.
If you are thinking the bicycle from the anatomically view, you should invent a bicycle, that could be ridden upright with your flexible natural movement similar to the walking.
This was the first idea of the Kwiggle. And this is an opportunity to get back to your natural flexibility. After a little get used to, Kwiggle will adapt to your movement and not the other way round.
On Kwiggle you ride upright with a small wheelbase. So you have to adjust a little bit and you should pay a little bit more attention to the road. We have so many customers who have mastered that with bravour, so we stopped worrying about it.
Only with this small wheelbase it is possible to get a bicycle folded to handluggage size.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strida
So much for German engineering in this case ;-)
Good on you for doing 70km! That's about the limit of my comfortable endurance on it too. My record is~100km plus two ferry rides touring on the west coast but I admittedly walked it up the last two hills in the dark and I started to wish I was done around 85km.
What do you use for checked airline travel? I have the B&W hard case but haven't tried anything else. I think it is a linear inch or two over regulation if measured but nobody has ever stopped me or charged overage.
I'm in the process of building aluminum cases for two Zizzo folders my gf and I just bought. I'm keeping them under the size limit to be safe, but because they also convert into trailers (to haul carry-on) and are relatively beefy, I'm bumping up against the 50 lb weight limit for economy seats. Right now I'm scratching my head as to how to incorporate casters and center stands with only 1 lb left to play with. :|
I have a folding portage cart with light weight removable wheels that attach via pushpin axles into metal receivers. Buy two extra receivers, drill holes in the side of the case, bolt on the receivers, and attach the wheels at the destination.
I haven't used it for this yet but plan was I would just take the wheels in my carry on. I also have not work out how to attach the cart to the bike yet.
Wike sells the individual wheels, pins, receivers (2) and even a diy box trailer kit(1) using these parts with instructions if looking to visualize this.
(1) https://wicycle.com/products/bike-trailers/diy2 (2) https://wicycle.com/support/replacementparts
On the other hand, if you ride 70 Km a day - why would you even need a _folding_ bike? That means you do serious cross-country riding. Use a regular bike.
I have a Zizzo and bought one for each of my immediate family members. Everyone loves it.
Amazon has reasonable pricing+availability for USA people.
I bought 3 Zizzo Forte, and 1 Zizzo Urbano. The Urbano for my 9 yo daughter to make it slightly easier for her to manage.
Fortunately 45 degree descents and tailwinds don't coincide that frequently.
"One thing became very clear, and every mountain biker will certainly be able to confirm this: when riding uphill on a racing bike, there is always the conflict between riding standing up, which puts more pressure on the pedals, but you have to keep lifting your weight onto the pedal, and riding sitting down"
This is simply not what riding uphill on a roadbike is, unless you are not used to that position at all. The switch between seated and standing is not done to push harder, it's done to get a bit of variation in position and muscle use. It's not a conflict, it's an opportunity.
Except for those particularly steep slopes where you need to move your center of mass forward to not literally tip over, where it's not an opportunity but the only one. That threshold is sits in the vicinity of 20% incline, depending on size and seating position. This is with a wheelbase about twice as long as the kwiggle, and with a considerably lower center of mass. The author even seems to emit that, in a way, with the suggested tweak "So if you ride the Kwiggle in the mountains, always place the saddle a bit more forward". Good luck descending afterwards if it happens to be a route where you might actually need to brake.
The difference in the climb the author was so enthusiastically describing is simply that he went up more than 10% slower on the kwiggle than on the roadbike (92 minutes instead of 81). If you have ever measured endurance efforts in that game, for example on an ergometer, you will know what a huge difference 10% means.
I mean, nice publicity stunt and it surely was a lot of fun given the weather, but if you want to do that more, get proper equipment.
A few months ago I bought a used folding bike for €100, equipped it with a motor and battery that cost less than €400, for use on train trips.
Nothing feels better than getting out of a long-distance train trip, unfolding your bike and going about your way in a different city... No taxis, no complex public transport map to understand, nothing but freedom.
A clever way of answering the actual first question "why so expensive?"
There are two Chinese brands for the engines: Bafang and Tongsheng. Bafang has a better reputation; I used a Bafang for my first conversion (a regular MTB). But Tongshengs, in addition to being a little more affordable, are true pedal assist: power is proportional to the force you put on the pedals. It's a different experience from Bafang, but pedal assist feels better on a small folding bike, IMHO.
You can buy them on Aliexpress; look for vendors who have inventory in your country, which allows for faster shipping.
Here's the final build:
https://i.imgur.com/TBHHOc1.jpeg
... and on the road in Marseilles:
https://imgur.com/a/B2mJ17E.jpeg
http://www.velogical-engineering.com/velospeeder/produktinfo...
The 200€ one won't help you if you need to fly it. Even for road trips, for 2 adults in a city car, the size constraints could be enough to not bring two biggish 200€ along.
Basically, the choice comes to a 200€ bike you never bring along, or 800/1600€ bikes you can bring anywhere.
Two of the most important advantages of a folding bike, namely the weight and the folding volume, are also the largest cost factors in the product price.
The price is a matter of quality of material and manufacturing and number of parts. The lower the weight, the higher have to be the quality, the more compact, the more high-tech parts are required. the more expensive will be the bike.
You can't produce a folding bike with only 10 kg and only 55 l of folded volume that can easily be ridden up to 25 km/h and is stable for people from 1,30 m to 1,95 m and up to 100 kg for prices below 2,000 euro, unless you produce 100,000 or more in a year or you sell directly to the customers.
As bambax said - that's not what affordable means. Affordable is all about whether the target market can afford it, not whether it's good value for the materials and work put in.
I guess the appeal of the folding bike is more for irregular or infrequent trips.
Totally agree on the freedom aspect. Bicycles are ideal for inner city travel. Cars should be banned. I often use public bicycle shares when I travel now which is great because you don't even have to fold/carry or lock the bike up anywhere.
Yep, this is how I use it. I have another ebike for everyday use.
Not sure about the two-bikes concept though, because long-term bike parking is still a huge problem, security-wise, esp. for ebikes.
That being said, I know people who have done the two bikes thing, or at least one bike that "lives" at a railway station, for a long time and not aware of them having any problems.
The NS (Dutch National Railway) sells a secured bike storage subscription starting from 75 euros a year. And you can do it cheaper if you use your bike frequently because at some stations the first 24 hours are free.
And if you have a cheap bike that you use just for your commute you can also just put it in the free bike storage and only move it secured if you know you will be gone for >2 weeks or whatever the limit for free storage is.
Paris is also not flat, so unless you're super in shape it's difficult to use a non-electric bikes (depending on the journey, of course), and ebikes tend to be stolen much more than regular ones.
In other French cities, I don't know enough to have an opinion; I think Strasbourg is a little bit better.
A big advantage EUCs have is you don't have to bother with folding like a bike, just hop off, grab the trolley handle and walk on.
Electric scooters have similar advantages but they have to compromise range, performance, and compactness for their ease of learning.
The other thing is that you actually get some light exercise on a bike. Most people with desk jobs would do well to move their bodies a bit more during their days.
One thing that's nice some times about scooters is being able to stand up tall, rather than get into a slightly hunched up position on a bike. The Kwiggle from the GP allows for quite a unique upright body position. So that may be intriguing.
When unfolded, you can’t tell at all that they’re folding bikes.
https://www.decathlon.fr/p/velo-pliant-oxylane-120/_/R-p-120...
they actually went up in price since then. swapped stock tires because they were rubbish and also bought better seatpost from upper model. removed all the unneccessary stuff like ringer or mudguards and this thing flies. im getting average speed about 18km/h on my rides and done about 4000km so far without any problems. this is perfect city bike in my opinion. if this thing had disc brakes it would be even better.
300km on one day with a Kwiggle.
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000043671440.html