But why specifically in Bucha? Is this about Russians being obliged to retreat, and committing atrocities on the way out? Or is this going on in other places Russians still hold, and we only found it about it in Bucha, specifically, because they are out? Can we expect similar revelations in each place they are forced out of?
The Bucha was taken by the Russians and, as they are retreating to theirs border right now, the Bucha is now again in Ukraine hands and now it became possible to document the atrocities.
The world isn't ready to understand what has happened in Mariupol. Like the other commenter said, it will be uncovered once Russian forces retreat, and is ten times the destruction.
I, personally, am very concerned about Mariupol, the Russians there are free to do whatever they want (torture, rape, etc..). As they are there for quite some time already, they also had time to cover up their wrongdoings which is even more concerning.
The world isn't ready to understand that the Russians aren't going to retreat from Mariupol, that land bridge to Crimea through the important port of Mariupol was always the key point of the invasion.
Four weeks ago, people said the entire Ukrainian state was no match for the Russian army spearheading towards Kyiv. Today, the entire north of the country is free due to Ukrainian resistance. There are no givens. Ukraine may be able to retain their entire country.
This Wikipedia article and most reporting is a mess.
"Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk, "hundreds of Russian soldiers" were also among the bodies" - so you will also expect hundreds of dead Ukrainians who fought to be buried in the mass grave. That is not a "massacre", that would be war.
We know the media constantly lies about mass graves and what they are, see the Canadian schools or New York and Hart Island.
What they do seem to have evidence of is very bad for Russia. So Russia lost control of the troops in the area. It should have not happened or should have been cleaned up. So far Russia seems to have structurally failed everywhere, so I'd expect more of this.
There seems to be no evidence Chechens were in the area. That would be an alternate explanation of why Russia couldn't control these troops.
> Professor Michael Clarke, a defence and security expert and a specialist adviser to the House of Commons Defence Committee, has said that the images coming out of Ukraine are clear evidence of war crimes. He told Sky News:
"The deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime in and of itself, every day of the week. So unless somebody can provide a military logic why civilians are targeted, that is a straight war crime. Civilians who appear to have had their hands tied behind their back and were shot. There’s no strategic rationale for that whatsoever."
As to the response from Russia to the accusations, Clarke said:
"They always deny it. The Russia deny everything like this. They go through three phases. First of all, they deny everything. And then they try to obfuscate, they create stuff on social media, which indicates 'Oh it’s all very complicated and this was going on at the time, and that was going on, and no simple answers are possible'.
And then a couple of years later, they often admit it and they say yes, yes, we did do this or we did do that, but you do the same. And they point to some sort of moral equivalence in the West.
They did it over the poisoning of Litvinenko in 2006 and Skripal in 2018. They did it over the bringing down of the civilian airliner over Ukraine. They always deny it. They always do. And nobody believes them. That’s the point."
> Professor Michael Clarke, a defence and security expert and a specialist adviser to the House of Commons Defence Committee, has said that the images coming out of Ukraine are clear evidence of war crimes. He told Sky News:
For anyone interested in what Michael Clarke actually said rather than this misrepresentation, it was interesting, video -
You attribute too much intellect to the grunt on the ground.
Nobody thinks like that after fighting in the war, they might die tomorrow. Who else might have "done it"? Ukrainians themselves? What a very bad joke.
That's right, although we need not to let emotions prevail and at least ask for independent investigation.
I have no knowledge who did it because I haven't seen any investigation yet. And yes, I wouldn't rule out anything. War is ugly, people do ugly things. It's not a fight of angels with demons.
exactly, the only grunts with intellect and smarts are seen here placing a dummy AA system in a residential area so that it will become clear hopefully that the russians are needlessly bombing civilians.
These are Ukrainians found tortured, mutilated, raped and killed, not Russians. There is plenty of evidence in the linked article. Please don't do this here.
You have a long history of coming to the defense of what is now an international pariah that has lied about the purpose of a troop build up, 200,000 strong which has now senselessly displaced millions and murdered thousands more.
Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers. Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here.
> Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers
As the US passed a law to invade the Hague in case the ICC ever tries to accuse the US of war crimes, I'm assuming the US is not a "peer".
> Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here.
Israel was murdering Palestinian children in the West Bank and Gaza last year, backed by the US. Accounts of that posted here which managed not to be flagged were heavily "defended" with concerned deflections, where are your comments all over those threads to not deflect and do that here? Or the ongoing Saudi massacres of Yemeni, which the US backs and are happening now. Or the US drone attack on children in Kabul last August? When are those war crime trials starting?
I've called out whataboutism here before and I'll do it again here. It offers no solutions, only deflections and tarpits of inaction.
No one is saying any of those atrocities that occurred were defensible, least of all me.
But I am deeply concerned by the defense of an imperial power in its twilight that believes invasion in the 21st century is a sound method for solving disputes. Russia is the aggressor here. Apologies are not needed for its behavior or appropriate when Mariupol has been turned into a new Grozny and Odessa is next.
The "whataboutism" defense has basically become codeword for "how dare you point out our hypocrisy!" Especially for people in South America or the Middle East, why should they care about war crimes in Europe when Europeans/Americans have been committing war crimes or supporting people who do in their regions?
This isn't the topic of discussion of this thread. What do you propose to achieve with this line of questioning?
I live in the EU. Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs. What exactly do you intend to convey by pointing out hypocrisy here? Do you have a solution to propose? Should we/I stop caring about an aggressive state power at our doorstep because hypocrisy exists?
>This isn't the topic of discussion of this thread.
This is true, my intention isn't to derail the topic of the thread. Just pointing out that "whataboutism" is often just a defense for "stop pointing out my hypocrisy".
>Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs.
Unless its in Palestine or Western Sahara?
>Do you have a solution to propose?
Yes, perhaps if the West wasn't so hypocritical on ignoring its own numerous war crimes, then countries like China/India and entire regions like South America/Middle East would be more willing to support the West in conflicts like Ukraine. Its obviously too late for that now, but something to keep in mind for the future.
Its a tangential point, but you can't expect people to help you or care when you refuse to show them the same sympathy.
It's flattering to find you have spent some time going thru my history, although if you have tried to think critically instead of throwing emotional messages, I would consider that to be more useful activity.
Proper investigations means independent and not biased, which is clearly not the case for you and those who blame without any evidence, just because media provided a nice picture. Will it ever be the case and will russian forces be there or someone else is to be found. Unfortunately massive campaign on media blaming russia for that hints us the proper investigation will never take place.
And lastly - luckily it's not your private space, so please don't behave like you own it. If you enjoy echo-chambers there are plenty of places for that. HN is one of few where people freely express substantiated POV.
Though the early information states that there were bodies of "hundreds of Russian soldiers", found when the Ukrainian forces eventually arrived to the area.
In a country with 20-40% of ethnic Russians, and ~10% other non-Ukranians (anything from greeks to tatars), I'd say odds are far from zero some of those people are definitely not Ukranian.
You could tell a Russian from a Ukrainian in that video? I can't tell them apart even in person.
Perhaps you won't be failing to understand if you read it once again - the part "wouldn't be Russia in any way" refers to benefitting from crimes. I never said Russia actually commit or didn't commit those crimes, it's simply not enough evidence to say for sure.
All credible and verified evidence points to your skepticism being badly misplaced. In this case, we have satellite photos of the Russians from March 10th through March 31st having dug a large at mass grave site. Reuters journalists later confirmed seeing dead civilians along the roads of Bucha, some with their hands tied behind their backs and bullet wounds to the head being shot at close range. After the Russian's original shock and awe failed, they have restored to their tried and true strategy to terrorize, demoralize, and depopulate key cities in Ukraine (a strategy they've used in multiple wars including this one), which is how the Russians are attempting to "profiteer" from mass civilian slaughter.
You do realise Russia caused this right? As in, there wouldn’t have been mass executions in Bucha if Russia hadn’t invaded. I don’t much care who did it (ignoring the obvious most likely culprit), the fact is Putin killed those people either once or twice removed.
Yes let’s have an independent investigation, call up Putin and ask him to withdraw from Ukraine and pause his attack, and submit DNA samples and verified identities of all his soldiers so the investigators can have a good look.
A truly independent investigation is what is needed. And the U.S. hypocrisy statements is not helping Ukraine's case one bit, like Anthony Blinken promising to hold perpetrators accountable. How about cleaning your own house first?
Again, an independent investigation is what we must ask for.
Even if this turns out not to be the true chain of events, at least this is an attempt to get at the facts rather than venting. I read HN to find comments that try to make a concrete contribution to our knowledge. So, please folks, more.
Comments like that, even though he's just asking legitimate questions, are often downvoted into oblivion very quickly.
Given the amount of lies circulated by Ukraine's and Russian authorities, I'm always wary of accepting anything I read at face value.
Also, Ukraine has an abysmal track record when it comes to investigations (see those into the Maidan sniper killings and the Odessa massacre), so again, I don't see how you can immediately buy into this shit without the least amount of doubt. It seems most people do though and it makes me really sad.
the narrative is walking a thin red line and people pick the view they like, should or actually have.
3-31 NYT posts story about UA fears of saboteurs (pro-Russian Ukrainian civilians). 4-2 UA news publishes story of UA forces going into #Bucha to clear it of "saboteurs & accomplices". Now photos/vids show many of the dead with RU food bags & white RU armbands. UA looking guilty.
Funny how hard it is for you to believe it was Russia and how easy it is to believe it was Ukraine
Funny how you say “we need independent investigation” to anyone who says it was Russia but here you are saying you don’t blame Ukrainians for staging it
Also funny that your account was opened after the war started
There are Stepan Bandera museums in Dubliany, Volia-Zaderevatska, Staryi Uhryniv, and Yahilnytsia. There is a Stepan Bandera Museum of Liberation Struggle in London, part of the OUN Archive,[147] and The Bandera's Family Museum (Музей родини Бандерів) in Stryi.[148][149] There are also Stepan Bandera streets in Lviv (formerly Mury street), Lutsk (formerly Suvorovska street), Rivne (formerly Moskovska street), Kolomyia, Ivano-Frankivsk, Chervonohrad (formerly Nad Buhom street),[150] Berezhany (formerly Cherniakhovskoho street), Drohobych (formerly Sliusarska street), Stryi, Kalush, Kovel, Volodymyr-Volynskyi, Horodenka, Dubrovytsia, Kolomyia, Dolyna, Iziaslav, Skole, Shepetivka, Brovary, and Boryspil, and a Stepan Bandera prospect in Ternopil (part of the former Lenin prospect).[151] On 16 January 2017, the Ukrainian Institute of National Remembrance stated that of the 51,493 streets, squares and "other facilities" that had been renamed (since 2015) due to decommunization 34 streets were named after Stepan Bandera.[152] Due to "association with the communist totalitarian regime", the Kyiv City Council on 7 July 2016 voted 87 to 10 in favor of supporting renaming Moscow Avenue to Stepan Bandera Avenue.[153][154]
Stepan Bandera monument in Ternopil
Monuments dedicated to Stepan Bandera have been constructured in a number of western Ukrainian cities, including a statue in Lviv, as well as Staryi Uhryniv, Kolomyia, Drohobych,[155] Zalishchyky,[156] Mykytyntsi,[157] Uzyn,[158] Buchach,[159] Hrabivka,[160] Horodenka,[161] Staryi Sambir,[162] Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk,[163] Strusiv,[164] Truskavets,[165] Horishniy, Velykosilky, Sambir, Velyki Mosty, Skole,[166] Turka,[167] Zdolbuniv,[168] Chortkiv,[169][170] Sniatyn,[171] and in such cities and villages as Berezhany, Boryslav, Chervonohrad, Dubliany, Kamianka-Buzka, Kremenets, Mostyska, Pidvolochysk, Seredniy Bereziv, Terebovlia, Verbiv, and Volia-Zaderevatska.[citation needed] In 2010 and 2011, Bandera was named an honorary citizen of a number of western Ukrainian cities, including Khust,[172] Nadvirna,[173] Ternopil,[174] Ivano-Frankivsk,[175] Lviv,[176] Kolomyia,[177] Dolyna,[178] Varash,[179] Lutsk,[180] Chervonohrad,[181] Terebovlia,[182] Truskavets,[183] Radekhiv,[184] Sokal,[185] Stebnyk,[186] Zhovkva,[187] Skole,[188] Berezhany,[189] Sambir,[190] Boryslav,[191] Brody,[192] Stryi,[193] and Morshyn.[194]
In late 2018, the Lviv Oblast Council decided to declare the year of 2019 to be the year of Stepan Bandera, sparking protests by Israel.[195] Two feature films have been made about Bandera, among them are Assassination: An October Murder in Munich (1995) and The Undefeated (2000), both directed by Oles Yanchuk, along with a number of documentary films. In 2021, the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory under the authority of the Ukrainian Ministry of Culture, included Bandera, among other Ukrainian nationalist figures, into Virtual Necropolis, a project intended to commemorate historical figures important for Ukraine.[196]
"Stepan Bandera led Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which fought alongside Nazi Germany during WWII, killing thousands of Jews and Poles"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Jews
They sure love to name streets (50 thousand streets reenamed since 2015!) erecting monuments, and march in parades for an actual, documented and proven Nazi collaborator, anti-Semite, and racist who slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Jews, Poles, anyone not Ukranian, in pursuit of "pure" Ukrainian race" (his own words, published in WaPo, of all places).
This thread is full of comments from accounts created within the last month whose only contributions are [flagged] allegations of Ukraine being a Neo-Nazi state.
I'm old enough to have watched the "Kuwaiti incubator hoax" play out. Having observed a few wars at fairly close range, I'm automatically suspicious of elaborate atrocity stories. That particular story you link actually influences me to be suspicious of the Bucha story. The intent of the article is to portray how bad things are, and the stories it relates are truly awful. But if the Bucha story really represents what is going on, the writers should have found much worse things to report.
Be on the lookout for the unholy trinity of Russian troll tactics:
1) bUt thE UsA cOmMiTtEd wAr cRiMes In tHe MiDdlE EaSt!
2) UkRaIne StaGed iT!
3) uKrAinE iS a nAzI sTaTe!
Responses are simple.
1) How's that relevant at all right now?
2) ...in areas that were under Russian occupation for weeks and only recently liberated, okay. Also, why stage atrocities when Russia isn't even hiding the fact that it's committing constant atrocities?
3) Unconvincing and unverified. Nazis are everywhere. Russia has an FSB commander with the SS bars tatted on his neck and their whole playbook in this war is Fascism 101. Ukraine's 6 biggest uber-far-right factions came together in the last election and got a whopping <2% of the vote. Whoop-de-f*#king doo. Tell that to folks with active KKK movements in their states.
"Stepan Bandera led Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which fought alongside Nazi Germany during WWII, killing thousands of Jews and Poles"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Jews
They sure love to name streets (50 thousand streets reenamed since 2015!) erecting monuments, and march in parades for an actual, documented and proven Nazi collaborator, anti-Semite, and racist who slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Jews, Poles, anyone not Ukranian, in pursuit of "pure" Ukrainian race" (his own words, published in WaPo, of all places).
That's their national hero. Unverified, with only 50,000 monuments and streets named after a literal Nazi.
Burning people alive isn't cool no matter what. Burning traitors alive is a different issue, although no less humane.
sigh The Bandera argument. I lived in East Ukraine for several years and they're not all hoo rah rah about Bandera at all, so I don't buy the "all Ukrainians worship Bandera THEREFORE they're all Nazis" argument. It's lazy, frankly.
Bandera also spent most of WWII in prison, by the way.
The Israel Times "article" is a poorly researched blurb, not an article. It also says that Ukraine started an armed conflict with Russia in 2014, which is a very Putin-esque take on what the rest of the world sees as an unlawful annexation of sovereign Ukrainian territory.
Was Bandera a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist? Yeah. Remember that Wikipedia article you're citing to me?:
"Ukrainian nationalism did not historically include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role."
Does that mean people in WWII were angels? No. Is history much more nuanced than you're making it out to be? Yes.
Also, not sure where you're getting that 50,000 number from at all.
> I don't buy the "all Ukrainians worship Bandera THEREFORE they're all Nazis" argument. It's lazy, frankly.
What you are doing here is called "ignoratio elenchi" or "a strawman argument", and it is truly lazy. No one has ever made an argument that "all Ukrainians are Nazis".
On the other hand, a huge portion of evidence used as a base to claim that current post-coup Ukrainian government is in bed with neo-Nazis, is confirmed and acknowledged by institutions all over the globe and all around the sides of this particular conflict.
Including the United States and Western media, for whom acknowledging support for neo-Nazis wouldn't be politically favorable.
Stepan Bandera, who is highly respected in Ukraine, had a reputation during WW2 of mass murdering Ukrainians who were "insufficiently Ukrainian". Its not unreasonable to ask for an independent investigation by the UN/ICC before assigning blame.
Also, on your first point, considering that many atrocities in the Middle East are ongoing, it is highly relevant. When the West has shown that it doesn't give a crap about war crimes in the Middle East/South America which it is complicit in, then why should they give a crap about war crimes in Europe?
If you had ever spent 0.002 seconds in Ukraine you would know Bandera is not on a pedestal throughout the entire country. Paradoxically, he's more favored in the West despite the atrocities his UPA committed against the Poles, but Bandera's a whole other can of worms that can't be broadstroked across all of Ukraine.
I mean, "doesn't give a crap" is kind of a hard sell, although I understand the uselessness of rhetoric when it comes to horrible sh*t like chemical weapons in Syria, ISIS publicly beheading people, etc. What war crimes in South America has the West been complicit in recently, by the way?
Most people in the West, including myself, knew nothing about Bandera until perhaps a month or so ago, so I'm not sure what you mean by "he's more favored in the West" unless you meant Western Ukraine. He has tons of monuments and streets named after him throughout Ukraine (someone in this thread pointed out the exact number), so I'm not sure how you could claim he is "not on a pedastal".
Funny how you leave out the crimes committed by the U.S. and its allies in the Middle East, how are chemical weapons in Syria and ISIS relevant to my point? Why didn't you mention the mass killings of civilians carried out by the U.S. in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan which the U.S. never accounts for (and when it does it basically says "oops, it was an accident, but not our fault". The mass sale of weapons by the U.S./UK to Saudi Arabia in atrocities in Yemen? Bringing back slave markets to Libya? Mass starvation of Afghanistan by witholding money which belongs to them by the U.S.? Mass murder of Iranians via sanctions by the U.S. for ripping up its own deal? I haven't even mentioned the horrendous amount of hypocrisy on the Israel/Palestine issue.
With respect to South America, perhaps those crimes are older, but they are still within memory. Support for Pinochet and the UK refusing to prosecute him for his crimes (of course, with the explicit support of the U.S.)? The countless interventions by the U.S. in South America over the last 50 years (funny how no one said anything about the U.S. not being allowed to have a sphere of influence back then)? Ongoing right now...mass murder via sanctions on Venezuela and Cuba for daring to exercise their own sovereignty?
The West is so hypocritical that the rest of the world (unfortunately) does not care about Ukraine. It is not the Ukrainians' fault, but frankly countries like China and India are not going to commit economic suicide by refusing to purchase Russian oil/gas, when they know the U.S. and its client states commit war crimes all over the world that are just as bad as what is going on in Ukraine and turn a blind eye to their own crimes.
I legit don't get it what's the end game here for Russians. What can they possible achieve by doing all these atrocities in broad daylight for everyone to witness? I have heard their military doctrine is to escalate to de-escalate, whatever that means, they seem to be doing fine, so what's next?
Even if the points listed turn out to be all propaganda, this gives us specific names, dates, places, and actions to investigate. Can we please agree to have more like this and less ranting. The war is a terrible thing and I'm sure it makes some people feel better to vent, but I really want to understand what happened and most posts in threads about the war are just noise.
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[ 0.18 ms ] story [ 114 ms ] threadhttps://rumble.com/vzj5jh-ukraine-mariupol-residents-speak-a...
Sad how you still haven't learned after Russia repeatedly lied to you about how it wasn't going to invade Ukraine.
"Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk, "hundreds of Russian soldiers" were also among the bodies" - so you will also expect hundreds of dead Ukrainians who fought to be buried in the mass grave. That is not a "massacre", that would be war.
We know the media constantly lies about mass graves and what they are, see the Canadian schools or New York and Hart Island.
What they do seem to have evidence of is very bad for Russia. So Russia lost control of the troops in the area. It should have not happened or should have been cleaned up. So far Russia seems to have structurally failed everywhere, so I'd expect more of this.
There seems to be no evidence Chechens were in the area. That would be an alternate explanation of why Russia couldn't control these troops.
"The deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime in and of itself, every day of the week. So unless somebody can provide a military logic why civilians are targeted, that is a straight war crime. Civilians who appear to have had their hands tied behind their back and were shot. There’s no strategic rationale for that whatsoever."
As to the response from Russia to the accusations, Clarke said:
"They always deny it. The Russia deny everything like this. They go through three phases. First of all, they deny everything. And then they try to obfuscate, they create stuff on social media, which indicates 'Oh it’s all very complicated and this was going on at the time, and that was going on, and no simple answers are possible'.
And then a couple of years later, they often admit it and they say yes, yes, we did do this or we did do that, but you do the same. And they point to some sort of moral equivalence in the West.
They did it over the poisoning of Litvinenko in 2006 and Skripal in 2018. They did it over the bringing down of the civilian airliner over Ukraine. They always deny it. They always do. And nobody believes them. That’s the point."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/apr/04/russia-uk...
For anyone interested in what Michael Clarke actually said rather than this misrepresentation, it was interesting, video -
https://nitter.net/SkyNews/status/1510868662982479875
I have no knowledge who did it because I haven't seen any investigation yet. And yes, I wouldn't rule out anything. War is ugly, people do ugly things. It's not a fight of angels with demons.
https://twitter.com/gbazov/status/1510773542618550280?s=20
What makes you think you can give advices on what people should or shouldn't do here?
If you don't need proper investigation to figure out who actually did that - it's your choice. But don't try to censor those who think not like you.
Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers. Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here.
As the US passed a law to invade the Hague in case the ICC ever tries to accuse the US of war crimes, I'm assuming the US is not a "peer".
> Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here.
Israel was murdering Palestinian children in the West Bank and Gaza last year, backed by the US. Accounts of that posted here which managed not to be flagged were heavily "defended" with concerned deflections, where are your comments all over those threads to not deflect and do that here? Or the ongoing Saudi massacres of Yemeni, which the US backs and are happening now. Or the US drone attack on children in Kabul last August? When are those war crime trials starting?
Ignorance is bliss indeed :(
No one is saying any of those atrocities that occurred were defensible, least of all me.
But I am deeply concerned by the defense of an imperial power in its twilight that believes invasion in the 21st century is a sound method for solving disputes. Russia is the aggressor here. Apologies are not needed for its behavior or appropriate when Mariupol has been turned into a new Grozny and Odessa is next.
I live in the EU. Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs. What exactly do you intend to convey by pointing out hypocrisy here? Do you have a solution to propose? Should we/I stop caring about an aggressive state power at our doorstep because hypocrisy exists?
This is true, my intention isn't to derail the topic of the thread. Just pointing out that "whataboutism" is often just a defense for "stop pointing out my hypocrisy".
>Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs.
Unless its in Palestine or Western Sahara?
>Do you have a solution to propose?
Yes, perhaps if the West wasn't so hypocritical on ignoring its own numerous war crimes, then countries like China/India and entire regions like South America/Middle East would be more willing to support the West in conflicts like Ukraine. Its obviously too late for that now, but something to keep in mind for the future.
Its a tangential point, but you can't expect people to help you or care when you refuse to show them the same sympathy.
Proper investigations means independent and not biased, which is clearly not the case for you and those who blame without any evidence, just because media provided a nice picture. Will it ever be the case and will russian forces be there or someone else is to be found. Unfortunately massive campaign on media blaming russia for that hints us the proper investigation will never take place.
And lastly - luckily it's not your private space, so please don't behave like you own it. If you enjoy echo-chambers there are plenty of places for that. HN is one of few where people freely express substantiated POV.
You could tell a Russian from a Ukrainian in that video? I can't tell them apart even in person.
https://www.newsweek.com/bucha-massacre-images-show-mass-gra...
Yes let’s have an independent investigation, call up Putin and ask him to withdraw from Ukraine and pause his attack, and submit DNA samples and verified identities of all his soldiers so the investigators can have a good look.
Again, an independent investigation is what we must ask for.
Given the amount of lies circulated by Ukraine's and Russian authorities, I'm always wary of accepting anything I read at face value.
Also, Ukraine has an abysmal track record when it comes to investigations (see those into the Maidan sniper killings and the Odessa massacre), so again, I don't see how you can immediately buy into this shit without the least amount of doubt. It seems most people do though and it makes me really sad.
3-31 NYT posts story about UA fears of saboteurs (pro-Russian Ukrainian civilians). 4-2 UA news publishes story of UA forces going into #Bucha to clear it of "saboteurs & accomplices". Now photos/vids show many of the dead with RU food bags & white RU armbands. UA looking guilty.
https://twitter.com/morphonios/status/1510943831109287940?s=...
Funny how you say “we need independent investigation” to anyone who says it was Russia but here you are saying you don’t blame Ukrainians for staging it
Also funny that your account was opened after the war started
There are Stepan Bandera museums in Dubliany, Volia-Zaderevatska, Staryi Uhryniv, and Yahilnytsia. There is a Stepan Bandera Museum of Liberation Struggle in London, part of the OUN Archive,[147] and The Bandera's Family Museum (Музей родини Бандерів) in Stryi.[148][149] There are also Stepan Bandera streets in Lviv (formerly Mury street), Lutsk (formerly Suvorovska street), Rivne (formerly Moskovska street), Kolomyia, Ivano-Frankivsk, Chervonohrad (formerly Nad Buhom street),[150] Berezhany (formerly Cherniakhovskoho street), Drohobych (formerly Sliusarska street), Stryi, Kalush, Kovel, Volodymyr-Volynskyi, Horodenka, Dubrovytsia, Kolomyia, Dolyna, Iziaslav, Skole, Shepetivka, Brovary, and Boryspil, and a Stepan Bandera prospect in Ternopil (part of the former Lenin prospect).[151] On 16 January 2017, the Ukrainian Institute of National Remembrance stated that of the 51,493 streets, squares and "other facilities" that had been renamed (since 2015) due to decommunization 34 streets were named after Stepan Bandera.[152] Due to "association with the communist totalitarian regime", the Kyiv City Council on 7 July 2016 voted 87 to 10 in favor of supporting renaming Moscow Avenue to Stepan Bandera Avenue.[153][154]
Stepan Bandera monument in Ternopil Monuments dedicated to Stepan Bandera have been constructured in a number of western Ukrainian cities, including a statue in Lviv, as well as Staryi Uhryniv, Kolomyia, Drohobych,[155] Zalishchyky,[156] Mykytyntsi,[157] Uzyn,[158] Buchach,[159] Hrabivka,[160] Horodenka,[161] Staryi Sambir,[162] Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk,[163] Strusiv,[164] Truskavets,[165] Horishniy, Velykosilky, Sambir, Velyki Mosty, Skole,[166] Turka,[167] Zdolbuniv,[168] Chortkiv,[169][170] Sniatyn,[171] and in such cities and villages as Berezhany, Boryslav, Chervonohrad, Dubliany, Kamianka-Buzka, Kremenets, Mostyska, Pidvolochysk, Seredniy Bereziv, Terebovlia, Verbiv, and Volia-Zaderevatska.[citation needed] In 2010 and 2011, Bandera was named an honorary citizen of a number of western Ukrainian cities, including Khust,[172] Nadvirna,[173] Ternopil,[174] Ivano-Frankivsk,[175] Lviv,[176] Kolomyia,[177] Dolyna,[178] Varash,[179] Lutsk,[180] Chervonohrad,[181] Terebovlia,[182] Truskavets,[183] Radekhiv,[184] Sokal,[185] Stebnyk,[186] Zhovkva,[187] Skole,[188] Berezhany,[189] Sambir,[190] Boryslav,[191] Brody,[192] Stryi,[193] and Morshyn.[194]
In late 2018, the Lviv Oblast Council decided to declare the year of 2019 to be the year of Stepan Bandera, sparking protests by Israel.[195] Two feature films have been made about Bandera, among them are Assassination: An October Murder in Munich (1995) and The Undefeated (2000), both directed by Oles Yanchuk, along with a number of documentary films. In 2021, the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory under the authority of the Ukrainian Ministry of Culture, included Bandera, among other Ukrainian nationalist figures, into Virtual Necropolis, a project intended to commemorate historical figures important for Ukraine.[196]
"Stepan Bandera led Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which fought alongside Nazi Germany during WWII, killing thousands of Jews and Poles" They sure love to name streets (50 thousand streets reenamed since 2015!) erecting monuments, and march in parades for an actual, documented and proven Nazi collaborator, anti-Semite, and racist who slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Jews, Poles, anyone not Ukranian, in pursuit of "pure" Ukrainian race" (his own words, published in WaPo, of all places).That's their national hero.
There are multiple independent reports of the Russian army committing war crimes: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-cri...
Ukraine’s Got a Real Problem with Far-Right Violence https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s...
Responses are simple. 1) How's that relevant at all right now? 2) ...in areas that were under Russian occupation for weeks and only recently liberated, okay. Also, why stage atrocities when Russia isn't even hiding the fact that it's committing constant atrocities? 3) Unconvincing and unverified. Nazis are everywhere. Russia has an FSB commander with the SS bars tatted on his neck and their whole playbook in this war is Fascism 101. Ukraine's 6 biggest uber-far-right factions came together in the last election and got a whopping <2% of the vote. Whoop-de-f*#king doo. Tell that to folks with active KKK movements in their states.
Ukrainian nationalists committed massacres in Odessa: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o...
Their national hero: https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-national...
"Stepan Bandera led Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which fought alongside Nazi Germany during WWII, killing thousands of Jews and Poles"
They sure love to name streets (50 thousand streets reenamed since 2015!) erecting monuments, and march in parades for an actual, documented and proven Nazi collaborator, anti-Semite, and racist who slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Jews, Poles, anyone not Ukranian, in pursuit of "pure" Ukrainian race" (his own words, published in WaPo, of all places).That's their national hero. Unverified, with only 50,000 monuments and streets named after a literal Nazi.
Obviously only angels live in that country.
sigh The Bandera argument. I lived in East Ukraine for several years and they're not all hoo rah rah about Bandera at all, so I don't buy the "all Ukrainians worship Bandera THEREFORE they're all Nazis" argument. It's lazy, frankly.
Bandera also spent most of WWII in prison, by the way.
The Israel Times "article" is a poorly researched blurb, not an article. It also says that Ukraine started an armed conflict with Russia in 2014, which is a very Putin-esque take on what the rest of the world sees as an unlawful annexation of sovereign Ukrainian territory.
Was Bandera a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist? Yeah. Remember that Wikipedia article you're citing to me?:
"Ukrainian nationalism did not historically include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role."
Does that mean people in WWII were angels? No. Is history much more nuanced than you're making it out to be? Yes.
Also, not sure where you're getting that 50,000 number from at all.
What you are doing here is called "ignoratio elenchi" or "a strawman argument", and it is truly lazy. No one has ever made an argument that "all Ukrainians are Nazis".
On the other hand, a huge portion of evidence used as a base to claim that current post-coup Ukrainian government is in bed with neo-Nazis, is confirmed and acknowledged by institutions all over the globe and all around the sides of this particular conflict.
Including the United States and Western media, for whom acknowledging support for neo-Nazis wouldn't be politically favorable.
Ottawa Citizen - Canadian Troops training Nazis and War Criminals https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/allega...
Newsweek - Ukrainian Nationalist Volunteers Committing 'ISIS-Style' War Crimes https://www.newsweek.com/evidence-war-crimes-committed-ukrai...
Reuters - Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/...
The Nation - Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-righ...
Foreign Policy - The Historian Whitewashing Ukraine’s Past https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewash...
The Times of Israel - Netanyahu meets with head of Ukrainian party that includes neo-Nazis https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-meets-with-head-of-u...
The Times of Israel - Call for Ukrainian priests to stop glorifying Nazis https://www.timesofisrael.com/call-for-ukrainian-priests-to-...
Al Jazeera - Attacked and abandoned: Ukraine’s forgotten Roma https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/11/23/attacked-and-a...
Haaretz - The Upcoming neo-Nazi Concert in Ukraine That No One Is Talking About https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-the-upcom...
The Hill - The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality...
The west shook hands with Nazi defence ministers and sent them weapons.
That’s a good thing, right?
Also, on your first point, considering that many atrocities in the Middle East are ongoing, it is highly relevant. When the West has shown that it doesn't give a crap about war crimes in the Middle East/South America which it is complicit in, then why should they give a crap about war crimes in Europe?
I mean, "doesn't give a crap" is kind of a hard sell, although I understand the uselessness of rhetoric when it comes to horrible sh*t like chemical weapons in Syria, ISIS publicly beheading people, etc. What war crimes in South America has the West been complicit in recently, by the way?
Funny how you leave out the crimes committed by the U.S. and its allies in the Middle East, how are chemical weapons in Syria and ISIS relevant to my point? Why didn't you mention the mass killings of civilians carried out by the U.S. in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan which the U.S. never accounts for (and when it does it basically says "oops, it was an accident, but not our fault". The mass sale of weapons by the U.S./UK to Saudi Arabia in atrocities in Yemen? Bringing back slave markets to Libya? Mass starvation of Afghanistan by witholding money which belongs to them by the U.S.? Mass murder of Iranians via sanctions by the U.S. for ripping up its own deal? I haven't even mentioned the horrendous amount of hypocrisy on the Israel/Palestine issue.
With respect to South America, perhaps those crimes are older, but they are still within memory. Support for Pinochet and the UK refusing to prosecute him for his crimes (of course, with the explicit support of the U.S.)? The countless interventions by the U.S. in South America over the last 50 years (funny how no one said anything about the U.S. not being allowed to have a sphere of influence back then)? Ongoing right now...mass murder via sanctions on Venezuela and Cuba for daring to exercise their own sovereignty?
The West is so hypocritical that the rest of the world (unfortunately) does not care about Ukraine. It is not the Ukrainians' fault, but frankly countries like China and India are not going to commit economic suicide by refusing to purchase Russian oil/gas, when they know the U.S. and its client states commit war crimes all over the world that are just as bad as what is going on in Ukraine and turn a blind eye to their own crimes.