IMO, not all Thinkpads. My E485 was noticeably worse than my X1C6. Never seemed to track as well, nor did it seem to resist "sticking" as much.
I don't quite know to describe sticking, but it's like when an INU (or a strain gauge in this case) fails to properly self calibrate, and it decides that an objectively false input is true. Something similar to video game controllers with "stick drift," but not quite the same afaik.
Aside:
Ultimately, I can take it or leave it w.r.t. the trackpoint. A good touchpad can do wonders. In tight spaces I use my thumbs then rely on decent tap-to-click and inertial dragging implementations (present since ~2008). Though in the recent years, I haven't had to commute to work by train or bus anymore, nor have I had to really travel by airplane.
When typing, I mostly rely on keyboard commands for text-heavy work. I do find quite a bit of use in many thinkpad's KB layout still preserving home/end/insert/pgup/pgdn without needing to resort to "fn" key twister games, even if newer Thinkpad layouts are worse and worse for this (insert key got eaten by fn in some newer laptops, and there are obviously longstanding debates over the 7row vs 6 row). None of the griping about the "swapped" ctrl/fn key positions would even matter if functions weren't being hidden behind fn keys in the first place, negating the need for a fn key at all.
I do appreciate the thinkpad's clustered f1-f12 keys, which make common f keys quicker and easier to find.
I've never used the touchpad on any of my thinkpads.
I think Lenovo have been okay stewards of decent laptops. Not great, especially relative to newer developments on the market.
I have an E585, and I agree it's not quite as good. I think the E series are kind of the "budget ThinkPads" (I got it second-hand in a pinch after my previous laptop broke). It's decent enough I suppose, but I've had a number of curious hardware problems with it (including the drift you mentioned).
> I do appreciate the thinkpad's clustered f1-f12 keys, which make common f keys quicker and easier to find.
Finally I found someone who cares about this too! I've had laptops without those little gaps, and I found it unnoticeably harder to use the F keys; for example brightness up/down is F5/6, and when watching some TV at night when it's dark it's so much easier to find those keys with those little gaps. Even in regular normal use it just makes things a wee bit easier.
It's a small design detail, but it so clearly and objectively makes the keyboard better than I don't understand why so many keyboards don't include it. Well, I do understand: the graphical designers have locked all UX designers in a closet somewhere, but still...
> griping about the "swapped" ctrl/fn key positions
You can just change it in the BIOS anyway so that Fn is Ctrl and Ctrl is Fn, so it's a non-issue anyway.
I bought the first ZBook 15 in 2014. I'm running Ubuntu 20.04 on it now. One of the reasons I got that laptop was the physical buttons, plus on site next day support. Too bad for the 16:9 screen and I absolutely hate the numberpad. I don't have any use for it and it puts all the keyboard off axis. It's a world of compromises.
Which ZBook do you own and which Linux do you run on it?
I have a ZBook 15 G3 from 2016. The number pad is one of those things I love 10% of the time and I wish it could just disappear the rest of the time. Perhaps the ideal laptop should come with a USB number pad?
Website doesn’t work all that great on mobile. But I’d be supportive of a Linux laptop that can market itself to regular consumers rather than already-converted Linux folks.
Looks interesting, starts at $930 which is not too steep vs other products in the same space, price of upgrades is not stated which is a bit scary. Several Linux distros tested including Ubuntu, but Debian is not in the list. Appears to have a non-removable battery with nothing said about replacing it. And of course the CPU (whether you pick Intel or AMD) is full of blobs, management engine, etc. I didn't notice a mention of a built in microphone but it is a standard thing to find on laptops, so what I was hoping to see was a way to hard disconnect it.
Edit: aha, I see replacement parts including batteries are available if you select "parts" from the menu.
Ordering screen alert says "Production for the StarLite's has now finished, and are in the final stages of testing. Orders placed now are estimated to ship out in 2-3 weeks."
There are some unstated "if"s in that, so I would say until people actually receive units, it doesn't quite exist.
Anyway I will keep an eye out for this. I'm going to need another laptop at some point and this seems like a possibility, as does the Framework, etc.
> There are some unstated "if"s in that, so I would say until people actually receive units, it doesn't quite exist.
Kudos for being wary of marketing copy. I'd like to note that StarLabs has been shipping laptops of their own design for a few years now. They've been super transparent about manufacturing lead times and their order queue too. I don't own anything of theirs yet, but I've been keeping an eye on them long enough to say I appreciate their way of doing business.
I can't comment on the StarBook, but the Framework touchpad is really great. I had an early model that had a slightly annoying out-of-the-box issue where I had to click kind of hard, but after doing that it works great now. Two-finger scroll is super smooth, and it properly detects 1/2/3 finger gestures, etc.
I think my frame.work is doing the "kinda hard" click thing too. Did you just break it in, or change something mechanically? I mostly use the keyboard, so it's a very minor annoyance to me.
> Pressing the bottom center of the touchpad firmly a few times has resolved the issue in some cases.[1]
Said in a slightly different way:
> There were also a small number of early units produced that may have contact issues on the physical switch on the Touchpad. Try pressing the bottom middle of the Touchpad firmly a few times to see if that resolves the issue. If it does not, please contact Framework Support.[2]
I purchased and returned an XPS last year and the trackpad was unbelievably bad. After using Mac laptops for the previous 10 years, I hadn’t thought the difference in hardware quality could be so far apart. MacBooks are at least a generation ahead of the best PC hardware (generation as in, 10 years)
Likewise, 2021 Dell XPS 15. Had to retire it very early -- trackpad issues, then frame deformation caused by moving the laptop would cause the RAM or the CPU to crash.
> 2021 Dell XPS 15. Had to retire it very early -- trackpad issues
Me over here with a 2021 XPS 15 using a mouse 24/7 because the touchpad lags hard on linux but refuses to admit I got burnt lol. I'd be over the moon if framework released a 15" model.
The XPS isn't a great example of the best PC hardware, but it IS a pretty good example of the best laptop performance one can get for the price of an iPhone. ^^
I mean, to Dell and the XPS's credit, it all appeared great until I started using the trackpad. Structurally it's super rigid and the hinge was satisfying. I also really prefer the rubberized+carbon fiber thing other Dell laptops have going on, much more than the cold and sharp MacBook. Even the packaging is getting Apple-esque with heavy cardboard and near-mechanical boxes. But, that trackpad produced so much dissonance and is such a critical part of interacting with the machine and software.
On the other hand, almost any keyboard is better than what Apple sells :) their latest mbp is a bit better than the butterfly one but nowhere near the 2015 and earlier models.
I know this back-and-forth happens every single time there's a conversation about this on HN, but I just want to point out that trackpads are extremely personal, and I've had nothing but bad experiences with Apple trackpads until recently. The "hinge" models of the previous decade border on unusable for me because of the force required to click them, whereas my (early decade) XPS model has the best trackpad of any laptop I've ever used and it includes physical left/right buttons, which I love.
My advice is to try out the trackpad on a laptop before you buy it if this is something that matters to you, not trust the opinions of Internet strangers.
huh? apple hasn't used the "hinge" touchpad since 2015, more than 7 years ago. unlike afaik every other touchpad out there, the actuation force is actually adjustable. i'm not sure whether this is necessarily a good change, but it certainly is a change, and your data seems woefully out of date.
My comment is literally a response to someone talking about a MacBook Air from 2012.
Regardless, the comment stands, as even though Apple's trackpads have improved I would still strongly prefer a device with physical left/right buttons.
> My advice is to try out the trackpad on a laptop before you buy it if this is something that matters to you, not trust the opinions of Internet strangers.
This really applies to most products, especially those that you interact with so frequently and directly. It's one reason that in the EU you have a 14-day "right of withdrawal" for all purchases made at a distance (most commonly being internet purchases).
>My advice is to try out the trackpad on a laptop before you buy it if this is something that matters to you, not trust the opinions of Internet strangers.
I can’t disagree, but trying out Mac hardware is far easier than trying PC hardware. I can walk into an Apple store and try all the major hardware variations.
I had to get my XPS 17 based on online reviews. Because I can’t go out and try it. Buying PC laptops is the very definition of trusting internet strangers.
2021 Dell Precision 5750. It's a $3000 laptop and the trackpad is a disaster due to flakey palm or loose t-shirt rejection. 15 years after the introduction of the glass trackpads of the first aluminum unibody MacBooks, you'd think that others would figure it out, but no.
(The rest of the laptop is equally bad, but that's a different story.)
Funny, without js all the specs say "0." I guess they wanted it animated for dramatic affect and now you get something very much the opposite, like they're sarcastically selling you a rock.
This problem happens even with JS enabled. They’re supposed to be dynamic as you scroll but it doesn’t work properly so you end up staring at zeros for quite a while!
Looks decent. From the title it seemed like this only supported AMD, but you can get it with Intel CPUs, too.
I've been burned in recent years by trying to use AMD stuff with Linux and just running into even more weird, minor hardware incompatibilities than usual. For now I would not buy an AMD laptop again.
Make sure to use the latest kernels. My Ryzen 2500U laptop has finally been fully stable and usable after about the 5.10 kernel. There were unfortunately a ton of bugs and issues with Ryzen, especially the APUs, in the earlier kernels. Ubuntu 21.10 or similar derivatives have been solid though.
I do, I use linuxPackages_latest from nixpkgs. On my first AMD machine (2020 Threadripper) I even made and carried a kernel patch to correctly address audio output pins for a while. Some of that works upstream now, but the AMD-compatible mainboards are spread too thin to be well-supported.
This is like the Framework laptop but it's a UK-based company that has been around for years, and with an explicit focus on Linux compatibility to boot. I'm surprised I haven't come across them before as I've been looking for Linux-compatible laptops for years.
They do some things better than Framework such as supporting Ryzen processors, and seem a bit cheaper overall. The battery life seems like it would be better. They have a spare parts store as well and a full disassembly guide as well as an "open warranty". I was never a fan of Framework's swappable ports.
The biggest disadvantage seems to be that the screen is bog-standard 16:9.
I'm curious on the quality of the speakers, webcam, keyboard, and trackpad. I have a feeling they will not be great - in comparison to a Macbook at any rate.
From reviews it looks like the trackpad is poor because it is not whole-trackpad clickable, and the keyboard is also poor due to the short key travel.
Are there any other decent alternatives available in the UK?
> The biggest disadvantage seems to be that the screen is bog-standard 16:9.
Bigger than that IMO is 14" @ 1080p. It's just too little for daily use for me. Framework are so far the only ones in this market segment who have ever marketed >1080p laptop displays AFAIK. I have a hard time understanding why there is such a lack of higher-res panel options across the market, even when seemingly all other relevant specs are high-end.
I'm sure like usual when this comes up, some people will come reply with "you can't make out the difference anyway", which is just not true. Some of us prefer smaller fonts and higher information density. 8px font size is just less ergonomic and more tiring for the eyes. For 16:9 14" I just won't consider anything below 1440p.
8px font size works fine with good hinting. In general, 1080p would be a near-optimal resolution given pixel-perfect rendering. Higher resolutions are useful when the rendering is too fuzzy, they're simply about hiding that imperfection.
Come back when you have tried that with CJK. There is no font or rendering that can make that comfortable to read.
If it works for you, great, I'm just tired of people telling me I don't understand what I want and I shouldn't have to write a blog post justifying myself everytime I claim that higher screen res makes a huge difference for my use-case. It's not like Chinese language is an edge-case.
Sure, but nobody is using 8pt CJK fonts. Even with a 5k panel, you wouldn't be able to resolve their shape without the equivalent of a magnifying glass (i.e. focusing on a smaller section of the screen). Talk about eye tiring.
*px but yes, precisely my point (wouldn't be so sure about "nobody", though...). On higher resolutions, more pixels in the same physical size. I find 10~12 all good, depending on circumstances.
But physical size is exactly what matters wrt. resolving a shape. Already at 1080p, the pixels are too small to resolve individually when comfortably looking at the screen. So there's really nonbenefit to such tiny character sizes.
> Already at 1080p, the pixels are too small to resolve individually when comfortably looking at the screen.
No, and people perpetuating this myth is what annoys me - that physical size is comfortable for me and that's what I use on a daily basis.
Try 8px font of full-width Chinese characters on 14" 1080p next to the same effective physical size on a 4k and if you still tell me it's too tiny to tell, well, I guess we have different eyesight and preferences.
Th e so called perfect rendering you're referring to is just infinite layers of havkd that rely on the subpixel layout of your panel to appear smooth. Monospaced, unaliased bitmap fonts will look great and I use them too, but most fonts out there are not designed to be pixel perfect but instead to be rasterized to different sizes, and for that, higher resolutions do help.
I do not count Thinkpad as open enough to be in the same segment anymore. I have owned many generations of them and some are still in use but will not be getting a newer one the way things look now.
One practical aspect is how they are very inconsistent in making crucial firmware updates available. In theory, they're on fwupd/LVFS. In practice, that can lag behind by months or even years and the only way to get necessary updates to get security fixes or get certain hardware working is many times to boot from Windows.
> In practice, that can lag behind by months or even years and the only way to get necessary updates to get security fixes or get certain hardware working is many times to boot from Windows.
I feel like I get updates fairly often with my p50 on Ubuntu which is 5 or 6 years old at this point.
My gen 9 x1 carbon is the best Linux machine (which includes desktops) I've ever owned.
It is only the trackpoint that locked me on ThinkPad. There is IMHO clearly a user base that would be willing to move away from Lenovo only if they could get an open replacement for that single part...
Yeah me too, the trackpoint keeps me at ThinkPads for my daily driver (I have experimented with others like the Pinebook Pro, but (underpoweredness aside) the lack of the trackpoint kills the deal for me...
> Framework are so far the only ones in this market segment who have ever marketed >1080p laptop displays AFAIK.
Dell has sold their Linux-ready "developer edition" XPS 13 with a UHD+ screen for quite a few years now. (They max out at 16GB of RAM, though, unfortunately.)
Dell isn't quite as "open" as something like Framework or System76 (or Star Labs), but they at least sell their Developer Edition laptop with Ubuntu preinstalled, at your option, and claim the hardware is supported properly in Linux.
(I say "claim", because I have the 2018 model, with a fingerprint scanner with no Linux driver.)
The post-Ice Lake models of the XPS series all support 32GB of RAM on the Developer Editions; I have one. Until that point this was Intel's fault because before then they were behind on their memory controllers, nothing Dell could do about it.
Fingerprint reader support for Linux in general has been a sticking point for a very long time, including on the XPS series. (I still fondly remembering the blobs needed for my old ThinkPad's reader to work...) But it's basically the only thing that requires blobs from my knowledge. I don't even bother with it on my stock Fedora install, though it is quite slick in Windows, I admit...
Ah, strange. I'd just looked at Dell's site, but couldn't configure the Developer Edition for anything over 16GB. Probably my fault I couldn't figure it out... plus their order/configure site is terrible.
I had an xps. The battery swells and the charger stopped working, then the replacement charger stopped working. The keyboard and trackpad werent great either
The key is to just stop caring about absolute pixel count. All that matters is the angular pixel density, with regular pixel density being sufficient when compared within a “class” of viewing distance (e.g. handheld, laptop, desktop, couch).
I wouldn’t use a screen larger than a phone (7”) at 1440p. 4K is the minimum for laptops. Unfortunately 4K is also the maximum for desktops since I can’t find any 5K panels with a decent refresh rate (>=120Hz)
* Asus Vivobook S 14X OLED - 14.5" 16:10 2880x1800 550-nit 100% DCI-P3 120Hz OLED
I'm also keeping an eye out for the next gen refresh of the Tuxedo Infinity Book Pro 14 - they use a 16:10 2880x1800 400-nit display as well (these are a TongFang ID4H1, and XPG and some other OEMs also use a similar chassis).
My last 2 company laptop were a Lenovo X1 Carbon G8 and a Lenovo X1 Carbon G9.
These machines are so reliable and resilient, no matter how much you travel, they are indestructible. I definitely recommend them.
I would not. I've had an X1C7 for three years now. Numerous Linux driver issues (especially audio), issues restoring from sleep, had the screen replaced twice and the trackpad replaced once.
To be fair if you get the on-site repair warranty, that is pretty great.
The audio problems with the C7 were unfortunate but more on the Intel side to have force pushed that with this generation of CPU while nothing was ready. I got it 6 months later at the moment where things were starting working. Never got much trouble for resting from sleep.
I am currently still using my old X1C2 from 2014. That's quite reliable by my standards. I would prefer to continue with Lenovo due to reliability and good Linux support (there is a dedicated engineer for that matter who is available on their forums and who help various distributions including Debian and Fedora to make things work). I was waiting for the Gen 10 but battery life seems disappointing on Windows, so I am waiting for people to test on Linux. Gen9 only has FHD+ or 4K+ (too low and too high).
I'm also looking for a new Linux laptop for this spring. I thought about the Tuxedo laptops, but after reading around there are a lot of complaints about quality and even Linux driver issues.
I've been pretty disappointed with my Lenovo X1 Carbon and don't want another Chinese laptop, so I'm thinking to go ASUS. Currently maybe one of:
- ASUS Vivobook Pro 14X, 14" OLED, 600 nits (peak), 3K, 90Hz
- ASUS ROG Zephyrus G14, 14" LCD, 500 nits, 120Hz, 2560x1600, AMD GPU
I personally try to avoid Nvidia dGPUs since I usually don't need CUDA and they tend to be a PITA even w/ DKMS drivers and are terrible for battery life.
I think the thing with the currently available Vivobook Pro 14Xs (M4700/N7400) is that they're currently last-gen Ryzen 5000 and Intel 11th gen chips. Even though I'd like to try out the OLED display, I'd probably go w/ the G14 atm - Ryzen 6000 and also you get 1 unsoldered DIMM slot so you could probably get yourself get up to 40GB of DDR5.
While Asus doesn't give a crap about Linux, there's a pretty active community (focused mostly on the G/M ROG laptops, maybe another good reason to go w/ the G14): https://asus-linux.org/
It seems like these days there are always si0x/s3 or other power drain issues w/ non-validated Linux laptops though. A good reason to support companies like Tuxedo, System76, Slimbook, Starlabs etc that at least make some effort that their EC/BIOSes actually play nice.
I agree Linux support would be ideal, but hardware quality is of first importance; many of those companies are just rebranded Clevo.
Until recently I agreed about absolutely no Nvidia, though it might be improving. For a few months now the drivers support the standard Wayland interface GBM, which at least means any compositor should work with them.
I agree you want good QC, support, and product design/features, but the various Lenovos, HPs, Asus, are just ODM'd machines manufactured by Wistron, Compal, Pegatron, etc so it's not all that different except big brands pay for more exclusivity. As far as repairability goes, you'd be better off with more standard parts, and honestly, lately some of the white label chassis' like the Clevo L141MU or Tong Fang ID4H1 are as good or in many ways better (lighter, unlocked BIOSes, more upgradeable (SODIMM slots!), better cooling, bigger batteries) than what many of the big OEMs have been putting out.
Not all configurations one these white labels are the same though since OEMs usually can choose what quality display panel, trackpad, etc they want to use...
My concerns are more with chassis quality. Having a good keyboard means having a rigid body. Many reviews of Tuxedo mention mushy keyboards. Even the keyboard on the Stellaris, which they highlight, doesn't fair well in opinions.
I agree most OEMs are bad, but the specific ASUS models I've mentioned, along with Thinkpads in general, seem to have better keyboards. Sadly Lenovo is making them worse every generation (with less travel).
Hey, I'm the one complaining about the lack of options - the Slimbook Executive seems to check all the major boxes and it's the first time I hear of them. Do you have any experience or anecdotes with it?
It looks like the same Tong Fang ID4H1 chassis that Schenker Vision 14/Tuxedo InfinityBook Pro 14 use (also XPG Xenia 14 I believe). If you do a search online, Notebook check, YouTubers (including some Linux-oriented ones) and various subreddits will probably have reviews. Basically looks good to me but ideally for performance/efficiency I'd wait for the 12th gen refresh (this particular chassis is Intel-only, although TF has other AMD models).
Below 45W, Ryzen 6000 outperforms, and it's battery-life can be up to twice as good as Intel 12th gen in idle/low intensity tasks like web browsing though, so for a thin and light, my hope is to see a decent AMD model come out in the next couple months.
BTW, a couple years ago I did a review of one of the first 4800H Tong Fang systems (versions of this have been available as the Schenker VIA 15 Pro, Tuxedo Pulse 15, KDE Slimbook, and Eluktronics Thinn 15): https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDLaptops/comments/hunyv6/my_mechr...
It was pretty thorough and I answered a lot of questions so maye relevant still. Also, one of the things that I liked about the Ryzen laptops is that while it mostly wasn't possible to exactly undervolt, enthusiasts have done a great job documenting mobile Ryzen's power and thermal behaviors, and you can basically script it to behave how you want, when you want: https://github.com/FlyGoat/RyzenAdj/wiki/Renoir-Tuning-Guide
I use a toggle that runs `ryzenadj -f 50` for example, which allows full turbo/speeds, but hard throttles to keep my temps right below my fan hysteresis temp to keep it completely silent. This tends to be my favorite run-mode on battery (I have it attached to a udev script for when unplugged).
> I'm sure like usual when this comes up, some people will come reply with "you can't make out the difference anyway", which is just not true.
It is true for those people. No doubt that's not true for you, but you're not everyone. With fairly small screens (14" is small compared to a 24" desktop monitor) I genuinely don't notice the difference. I'm sure if you would put two screens next to each other I'd be able to spot differences, but in daily use? Not really. I used to have a employer-provided 15" Dell XPS with some >1080p resolution (I forgot which exactly) and I really didn't notice.
There are downsides, too: the computer has to work harder to render all those pixels and the battery life is shorter; my battery life was noticeably shorter than my previous almost identical XPS with a "normal" 1080p screen, so it's a trade-off.
Having an option would be nice for those who care about it of course, but I suspect a large section of people just don't care, and especially as a fairly small shop you can't do everything.
For me personally, I definitely do notice the difference; I just don't care about it enough for it to be worth the downsides you mentioned (plus the downside of worse FPS when gaming).
> We're all different, with different needs and preferences.
Yeah sure; actually, it just so happens I more or less said the same thing in a different comment a few days ago (very different topic, but similar sentiment): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30984309
I mostly just wanted to hook in on why these kind of systems still frequently come with a 1080p screen.
I notice the difference so much that I have a visceral reaction to low res displays, almost claustrophobic as if a screen door is covering my eyes. Can't stand them.
I can live with the lower resolution, as my eyesight is getting worse, but not with the 16x9 aspect ratio. 16x10 (1920x1200) feels so much more productive.
My main monitor is actually 16×10 1920×1200, and at 24" I find it's kind of too low of a resolution: I wish it was more. But it was fairly cheap (second-hand/refurbished from a reseller) and the intersection of "16×10", "not too large" (I don't want a 32" behemoth), and ">1080p" is basically zero, so I had to compromise somewhere, and given the low price point and that I couldn't be arsed to figure out all the display tech and whatnot for the new screens it was an easy choice.
But 16×10 seems to be making a bit of a come-back, at least for laptops.
> There are downsides, too: the computer has to work harder to render all those pixels and the battery life is shorter; my battery life was noticeably shorter than my previous almost identical XPS with a "normal" 1080p screen, so it's a trade-off.
Makes me wonder why Apple is capable of building laptops that run for hours and have a high DPI screen then?
Don't confuse Dell dropping the ball on hardware and software integration with trade-offs.
There are upsides to high DPI too: you can turn off anti-aliasing since you won't notice it when the pixels are too small to see.
> It is true for those people. No doubt that's not true for you, but you're not everyone.
While what you say is probably true I just wish it was not the constant narrative around laptops that have nice screens. I bought a Samsung Galaxy Chromebook and absolutely loved the 4K OLED screen it had up until the day its WiFi suddenly died. Everything looked amazing on it - even just the boring ChromeOS UI elements looked amazing. However every reviewer had the same feedback - that you can't tell the difference and you should shoot for 1080.
1440p is perfect for a 14". It has a close enough dot pitch to my 4k 27" displays, so that I don't have to do any weird scaling when connected to external monitors. My other laptop it 4k and it's a pain in the ass to tune it so that things are not too big or small across displays.
You need to set up various environment variables to scale up per app and framework, but once you do it should work across both the monitors and the laptop.
Isn't 1080p @ 14" like almost exactly the same as 4K @ 27"? It's 157 ppi vs. 163 whereas 1440p @ 14" is 209 ppi. And 4K at 200% scaling is just sharp 1080p. I guess it depends what scaling you're using on the 4K display 27" display but if it's 100% it should be near perfect unless scaling isn't working like I think.
> Framework are so far the only ones in this market segment who have ever marketed >1080p laptop displays AFAIK.
This is weird to me because I feel like I have the opposite problem. I don't want retina displays I derive no joy from and that eat more power for that lack of joy, never mind cause problems with differential scaling if I plug into a lower res desktop screen. I find I can't get high quality laptops that don't force me to have a too-high density screen.
I have settled for the framework because everything else about it is perfect for me, but I kind of hope someday they sell a replacement non-hidpi screen for it and I will very much buy it. The possibility of those kinds of choices down the line is why I bought into it.
I don't get this either. I picked up a cheap Samsung Galaxy laptop with Manjaro a while ago to replace my broken mac book pro until I can get that replaced (getting the new 14" pro for work).
The Samsung is fine but the screen is very mediocre in comparison. The same dreadful 1080p screen as world + dog insists on these days. Gnome makes it more cramped by insisting on a top bar thingy. I'd love to have a much higher resolution and brighter screen. 16:9 is just way to claustrophobic. And why do window managers insist on this silly top bar these days? That just eats into already limited space. Currently using Gnome and of course the one extension for that that fixes that (auto hide the damn thing), promptly broke when I updated Gnome.
Writing this on my good old imac 5K; the original one from 2014. Now that's a nice screen. My 2017 15" macbook pro had the infamously shitty keyboard, which actually ended breaking the very nice retina screen by virtue of a loose key that inserted itself in between the keyboard and the screen when I closed it. So something that should not be falling apart actually fell apart and did maximum damage. Absolutely disgraceful. I'm glad they ditched that design.
The Samsung at a quarter of the price manages a nice keyboard (with numeric keys even), a passable touchpad (multi touch but mechanical click sadly) and even a nice aluminium cover. If it weren't for the screen, I'd call it a superior deal. About as fast, same amount of ssd/memory, and it runs a lot cooler (i5 with xe graphics). Also, no thermal throttling because it just does not overheat. But at this price, I'm not complaining. This laptop with a better screen would be an awesome deal. Somebody needs to start doing this. 16:10, 4K would be what I'd spend money on.
>I have a hard time understanding why there is such a lack of higher-res panel options across the market
There are plenty of options, just most of them aren't cheap, or fitting in targeted price range.
There isn't a lack of high-res panel in supply, but a lack of high-res panel in demand. Or in other words, no-one apart from Apple (not that Apple gave its user a choice, but let's ignore this for a moment ) manage to market Retina or high-res panel and created enough demand to sustain a different upgrade option or SKUs.
This then cycles back, without economy of scale, not just a vendor but the whole industry, high-res panel do not enjoy the unit cost reduction as standardise low -res panel ( or 1080P panel, which isn't really "low-res" ). So the cost of these specific panel are far higher, increasing BOM, increase RSP, etc. etc.
Next question that always comes after this answer is always;
>"But we have higher prices SKUs, it is not like there isn't a demand for current SKUs +$100 / 200"
Yes. But given the option to choose between paying extra $100 / $200, the market tends to flavour for more memory, faster CPU or better GPU. Not higher-res panel.
Regarding laptop speakers (in general) Dave2D recently uploaded an interesting video [0] where he compared MacBook speakers to best Windows laptop's ones that he had in the studio.
It really does make you wonder why there such a noticeable difference!
> They do some things better than Framework such as supporting Ryzen processors
For some weird reason if you pick a non-english keyboard you can only pick the i7-1165G7 (which IMHO is the worst proposal of the three available if you pick an english keyboard).
Oh that is quite interesting. I did not even know that there were AMD Chromebooks. I don't know who at google is forcing hardware vendors to publish sources, but they are really awesome. Several arm vendors seem to only publish sources for their Chromebook SoCs (e.g. Rockchip, mediatek).
It says in the specification it has DP alt mode for the USB C. You just don't get thunderbolt on the AMD models. This is pretty typical and it's the same case on the AMD ThinkPads.
When I loaded the website it was slowly going incrementally through different intel generations. So I thought for a second they were offering versions with older intel chips. But the page was just animating slowly.
Do I understand correctly that this is capable of charging over USB-C, and includes a USB-C power supply, but the default charging cable is USB-C -> DC barrel jack?
So you can charge over USB-C, but only if you buy a C-to-C cable and tie up the single USB-C port.
Yup, at the same time it allows people to use USB-C for charging, which might easily be the case with some of those usb-c hubs that also provide charge to the device.
I think it's good that they have the barrel-jack option for people who want to use the USB-C port for something other than charging, but I would just prefer they ditch two of (or even all three) USB-A ports and have 3 or 4 USB-C ports instead.
You know what I'd buy? A proven laptop brand that a third party revamped/Coreboot-ed/etc. and resold. These mediocre, unproven, semi-bespoke laptops with third-rate keyboards and so-so screens (the two features that really matter to me) are never compelling enough.
Tiny bit puzzled by the random USB2 port? Seems out of place given rest of specs. Is there a specific reason why that would be desirable over another USB3?
I was interested, but sadly the German keyboards are only available in combination with an intel 11th gen mobile CPU. I really wanted the Ryzen variant. I wonder if the keyboard can be bought separately - the layout at least looked compatible with that.
Another point against it is the screen resolution - I really wanted to have a 1440p screen this time around.
I hope it does well and the range ends up expanding a bit, it would be nice to see some options with discreet GPUs (and higher res displays). The pricing seems reasonable and more support for Linux is always welcome
Damn, I wished I had bought the mini-PC from them instead!
I really don't understand the appeal of laptops, it only makes sense for the people that is really on the move like university students or blogger. Even then, they only need cheap laptop for browsing (cue memory hod jokes). That or you prefer to do your work at public spaces like libraries or cafes.
What's the point of spending huge sums of money on a laptop that performs 1/3 compared to its PC equivalent? You're also stuck with that keyboard and monitor for the rest of its natural life.
I'm using this laptop in bed right now, and I took it over to my in-laws' house the other day. And yeah maybe I'll go to a cafe tomorrow, that sounds great.
I haven't regularly sat at a desk using a computer in years. My most common locations are on the couch or in bed. Anything but a laptop would be incredibly awkward.
And yes, I do more than just web browsing. Mid-range gaming (no, I can't play the latest graphics-heavy titles on this kind of hardware, but I don't mind), development, etc.
space - you have to have at least 1 dedicated desk for your desktop.
mobility - You can do your work in places other you workplaces/home. Change of scenery/environment is trivial. even inside your own house, you can work from your own bedroom, kitchen, lounge, garden, wherever you want.
Your last point is baffling, really. Just treat it like any PC. If you dont want to use the screen/keyboard/trackpad just connect what you want to the laptop.
Actually I dont see the point of mini PC. Theyre just desktop that you can lug without monitor and any input devices.
What's the point of spending huge sums of money on a mini PC that performs 1/2.9 compared to its PC equivalent?
> Actually I dont see the point of mini PC. Theyre just desktop that you can lug without monitor and any input devices. What's the point of spending huge sums of money on a mini PC that performs 1/2.9 compared to its PC equivalent?
It's cheaper for the same specs; for example this StaBook with the 5800U is €1074, but their mini-PC with the same CPU is €786: €288 cheaper! You can also put a 2.5" SSD in it next to the MMC drive (my E585 also allows this, but many laptops don't). And for a lot of "serious work" I use my USB keyboard and HDMI screen anyway: the laptop doesn't really give any advantages here.
Right but you can get a faster full fat desktop for the same price that'll let you shove in 3.5" and 2.5" drives if you want, typically have higher RAM ceilings too, etc. Even in my tiny apartment the volume taken up by an ATX case isn't too much.
I'm in my 30s, been doing this since I've been 23, and absolutely zero issues related to that so far. Everyone I know who has RSI from this line of work seems to be unlucky mostly, so maybe it's just me, but I think it's mostly a matter of getting up and walking or running around for around 15 minutes for every hour of sedentary activity, stretches, underwater ocean swimming for the lungs... All things WAY more likely to give me an RSI just from stepping in the wrong place or whatever other exercise-related injury. Not like I spend hours in strange positions acting like I'm a three toed sloth
What do you do if you have to work in the office and there's a meeting where you want to demo something? Or you want to quickly look up an email with something you want to show to others?
Why only a single USB-C port? Almost everything I buy these days has only USB-C ports/cables/charging.
It's gotten to the point now that I am increasingly frustrated with the fact that there are no good USB-C capable hubs that take a USB-C USB 4 and turn it into an 8 port USB-C hub. With a mix of 10 Gbps/5 Gbps/480 Mbps speeds.
I can get plenty of USB-C to USB-A hubs, but that is not what I want.
I believe that when companies do this, it's because there's only a single Thunderbolt controller on-board the host, and they think that giving people two USB-C ports, where either port can do Thunderbolt, but you can't use two Thunderbolt devices (in actual Thunderbolt mode, where you're passing through PCIe lanes) at once, would be too confusing. So they force you to buy a hub or dock — pushing the consumer's blame for this confusing quagmire onto the peripheral manufacturer.
> 8 port USB-C hub
And I believe a major reason for the lack of these, is that, if a dock/hub/etc. that consumes a USB4/Thunderbolt host port, wants to be able to expose a full-speed USB4/Thunderbolt downstream port of its own, then that port isn't going to work for peripherals that are picky about speeds/lanes if you have any other USB devices plugged into the hub. So vendors choose "the ability to plug a single Thunderbolt device in, plus other things" over "the ability to plug a bunch of USB4/3.2 devices in."
On the plus side it does have three USB A ports, and it has a barrel charging port instead of one of those shitty USB-C ports for power. And you can plug USB-C-charging things into a USB A port with just an adaptor cable.
It's funny; my reaction is the opposite. Yes, I think the barrel charging port is good to have, but only because there is just a single USB-C port. I don't want a barrel port! I have USB-C chargers littered around my house already! And that's how I like it!
And I definitely don't want my default to have to be using adapters for my USB-C devices, so they can be plugged into the USB-A ports.
I guess my experience with USB charging ports is that they always break, and then they're a huge pain to fix, and my experience with barrel charging ports is that they almost never break, and then fixing them is pretty easy. So I think of a computer that can only be charged via USB as a piece of cheap trash. Maybe USB-C is different on this axis; I don't know yet. I really miss barrel charging ports on cellphones. I don't know, maybe I just abuse my hardware.
I never had problems with USB-A ports but I'm not using them much. All my laptops had barrel ports and I'm not using external keyboard or mice. A USB-B port started to get loose on a phone of mine after 6 years of use. I didn't use any USB-C port for more than 4 years yet. They look sturdier but time will tell.
Yeah, I wish USB was designed to be a little more sturdy in general. I find it disconnects a little too easily (compared with most chargers/AC adapters), breaks far more often, and even the cables I encounter are thinner and more easy to damage.
If we're settling on "charge/power everything with USB!" I hope the next version (USB F?) holds up better to more "abuse" than charging a phone on s desk or end table inflicts.
Having a barrel charging port is a serious flaw. I have many devices, but I expect to carry a single charger for all of them; if my laptop has a non-USB-C charger than I need a separate charger for the headphones/phone/Kindle/etc which is extra weight to carry around, extra mess and e-waste.
The world has moved to a single standard for charging for all devices, we're just waiting for the "transition period" to run out as the devices with nonstandard charging expire, it's inappropriate to design new hardware with an obsolete charging approach.
> my experience with USB charging ports is that they always break, and then they're a huge pain to fix, and my experience with barrel charging ports is that they almost never break, and then fixing them is pretty easy
The opposite for me. I’ve broken a proprietary charge port and had to wait over a week for the replacement. Never broke a USB-C port, but if I did it’d be no big deal since I have plenty of C connectors in my cabinet. I can solder a replacement in 10 minutes.
> So I think of a computer that can only be charged via USB as a piece of cheap trash. Maybe USB-C is different on this axis
Wait are you saying you’ve owned a laptop that charges over USB, but not USB-C? If so that laptop really was cheap trash. Why compare trash with flagship products?
USB-A (or quasi-USB-A) charge ports on laptops were a weird abberation for a while. I had a dell with that, and it's now one of the few laptops I've got that I might never be able to power on properly again because the power delivery over the port is 100% proprietary and the AC adapter for it is busted. I don't think there's ever been a high wattage PD standard for USB-A? Even with USB3. So any version of it was just some manufacturer's attempt to jump the gate on PD over USB-C.
USB-C is a completely different ballgame here. It has its flaws but it's nothing at all like that weird little era of laptops.
I've owned many computers that charge over USB but not USB-C. They're cellphones, though, not laptops. I'm sorry to hear about your experience with a proprietary charging port.
I like it, when both USBC charging, and BarrelJackCharging are available. So I can use the BarrelJackAdapter at home for when in "DeskMode", and only need to travel with the USB-C charger, that can also charge all my other devices.
Also makes for the possibility of "Redundant Power Supply", in case you use your old Laptop as a "HomeServer".
Yeah, I'd actually use the barrel charger on the road so that it can just live in my backpack and USB-C (provided by an appropriate dock that's connected to a keyboard, monitor, etc) at home.
Depending on what/where/how I hook up in DeskMode, I also have Power on USB-C. Mainly depends on how/where I want to route DP/HDMI-output.
Also, POE-to-BarrelJack is a thing, while POE-to-USB-C-with-more-than-5V is not.
Barrel charging ports provide a superior user experience: they are easier to use because you can insert the charger at any angle.
Barrel connectors are physically much more robust: they can rotate around their axis without imposing any torsional stress on the device being charged, and the longer lever arm inside the charging device (typically 15 mm) means that flexural stress around other axes creates much less force on the connector. Consequently, they break much less often than pre-C micro-USB connectors. It's too early to tell whether USB-C will improve on its predecessors in this regard, and it may, but it seems unlikely to reach barrel-connector levels of reliability just based on its geometry.
Barrel-connector ports are easier to repair when they break: there are only two wires, and they are quite thick. This is true a fortiori for the cables.
Barrel-connector charger faults are easier to diagnose: either the voltmeter tells you it's outputting 19 volts open circuit (or whatever the rated voltage is), or it's not, or, rarely, it has the correct open-circuit voltage but sags under load, the diagnosis of which requires a voltmeter and a power resistor. Moreover, they are less likely to occur; you are not going to break a bipolar SMPS with static electricity, not even if it is attached to a 5-volt USB cable, but you can easily do that to the CMOS control chips necessary for USB-C voltage negotiation.
Barrel connectors pose less of a security risk: they do not, in most cases, have a data connection at all, and a malicious charger definitely cannot execute a firmware upgrade attack on your device through a barrel connector.
Against this list of technical advantages you claim that barrel charging ports are "nonstandard" and "obsolete" — not because of any actual USB-C functionality, nor even because there are more USB-C-chargeable devices in the world than devices with barrel connectors, but just because USB-C is newer and currently fashionable. The maximally charitable interpretation of your post is that USB-C chargers are capable of providing a range of different voltages, so the complexity of voltage conversion goes into the charger instead of your headphones. But that's an extremely weak argument; a buck converter capable of deriving 5 V 300 mA from, say, 19 V is already much smaller, lighter, and cheaper than a pair of wireless headphones, and adding USB-C charging support to your product also requires a significant BOM cost, and the necessity to operate on 5 V as well as whatever it prefers, though maybe less weight than the buck.
What's inappropriate is that you're attempting to dictate decisions of technical functionality on the grounds of mere fashion and social approval, then shaming others for disagreeing with your judgment rather than supporting it by any actual arguments.
I predict that >99% of devices made this year that can only charge through USB-C ports will be nonfunctional in 15 years. That is, they are cheap trash, designed to be discarded rather than repaired. You should be ashamed of yourself for attacking my social standing to convince people to accept this inferior technology. The form of your argument — a veiled personal attack — makes it unworthy of being posted on this site, or, actually, anywhere.
8 ports is high expectations, I don't think there's anything really there, but there is a 3 port tb4 hub by plugable[1], and you can I think daisy chain multiple together. Pretty expensive to get up to 8 though, never mind all the power bricks to get the power necessary.
Yes, please! Ideally, also with POE .bt Power Supply possibility (upto 80W), and compliant to USB PerPortPowerSetting specification, to be able to toggle power to each port comfortably with uhubctl/Home_assistant/etc.
1920x1080 on a 14" display is unfortunately not something i will be okay with anymore. i feel like 2k resolution is the sweet spot for this size display.
it never changed, p in 1080p always referred to progressive lines as it came from movies/tv, 4k always meant 4096 at horizontal.
We still have 2160p which is 3840×2160
They never replaced each other, just different definitions for screen sizes
It changed with the “K”. The marketing teams decided that 4K sounded better than 2160p. This is all the more ridiculous as 4K usually means UHD where neither axis has 4000 pixels ( 3840 x 2160 ). In the industry I am in, this would be called 8 MP ( Megapixel ) instead.
After the popularity of 4K, somebody noticed that they could start calling 1080p 2K to make it sound better than 1080p. If you say 3 MP, does that sound even better? I mean, 3,000,000 is more then 2000 right?
I thought QHD would be nice enough at that size but I really like my 3840x2400 14"-ish Dell Precision. The extra resolution means the fonts look printed instead of no-too-pixelly.
380 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 307 ms ] threadThinkPads are unfortunately uncontested.
I don't quite know to describe sticking, but it's like when an INU (or a strain gauge in this case) fails to properly self calibrate, and it decides that an objectively false input is true. Something similar to video game controllers with "stick drift," but not quite the same afaik.
Aside: Ultimately, I can take it or leave it w.r.t. the trackpoint. A good touchpad can do wonders. In tight spaces I use my thumbs then rely on decent tap-to-click and inertial dragging implementations (present since ~2008). Though in the recent years, I haven't had to commute to work by train or bus anymore, nor have I had to really travel by airplane.
When typing, I mostly rely on keyboard commands for text-heavy work. I do find quite a bit of use in many thinkpad's KB layout still preserving home/end/insert/pgup/pgdn without needing to resort to "fn" key twister games, even if newer Thinkpad layouts are worse and worse for this (insert key got eaten by fn in some newer laptops, and there are obviously longstanding debates over the 7row vs 6 row). None of the griping about the "swapped" ctrl/fn key positions would even matter if functions weren't being hidden behind fn keys in the first place, negating the need for a fn key at all.
I do appreciate the thinkpad's clustered f1-f12 keys, which make common f keys quicker and easier to find.
I've never used the touchpad on any of my thinkpads.
I think Lenovo have been okay stewards of decent laptops. Not great, especially relative to newer developments on the market.
> I do appreciate the thinkpad's clustered f1-f12 keys, which make common f keys quicker and easier to find.
Finally I found someone who cares about this too! I've had laptops without those little gaps, and I found it unnoticeably harder to use the F keys; for example brightness up/down is F5/6, and when watching some TV at night when it's dark it's so much easier to find those keys with those little gaps. Even in regular normal use it just makes things a wee bit easier.
It's a small design detail, but it so clearly and objectively makes the keyboard better than I don't understand why so many keyboards don't include it. Well, I do understand: the graphical designers have locked all UX designers in a closet somewhere, but still...
> griping about the "swapped" ctrl/fn key positions
You can just change it in the BIOS anyway so that Fn is Ctrl and Ctrl is Fn, so it's a non-issue anyway.
Which ZBook do you own and which Linux do you run on it?
I run NixOS on it.
Edit: aha, I see replacement parts including batteries are available if you select "parts" from the menu.
Ordering screen alert says "Production for the StarLite's has now finished, and are in the final stages of testing. Orders placed now are estimated to ship out in 2-3 weeks."
There are some unstated "if"s in that, so I would say until people actually receive units, it doesn't quite exist.
Anyway I will keep an eye out for this. I'm going to need another laptop at some point and this seems like a possibility, as does the Framework, etc.
And of course it can't do fast homomorphic encryption either, so that's a hard pass here.
It's buried, but their website claims the ME is disabled by default: Go to "Configure", expand "Firmware", and click "Learn More":
> By default, the Intel ME is disabled on both coreboot and AMI.
ARM is no better. You’d have to get RISC-V for that.
Also POWER stuff is free from most, if not all, boot blobs. Maybe something for ram init... I forget.
Kudos for being wary of marketing copy. I'd like to note that StarLabs has been shipping laptops of their own design for a few years now. They've been super transparent about manufacturing lead times and their order queue too. I don't own anything of theirs yet, but I've been keeping an eye on them long enough to say I appreciate their way of doing business.
EDIT: this is what fixed it for me:
> Pressing the bottom center of the touchpad firmly a few times has resolved the issue in some cases.[1]
Said in a slightly different way:
> There were also a small number of early units produced that may have contact issues on the physical switch on the Touchpad. Try pressing the bottom middle of the Touchpad firmly a few times to see if that resolves the issue. If it does not, please contact Framework Support.[2]
[1]: https://community.frame.work/t/known-issues-on-early-framewo...
[2]: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/touchpad-not-working-...
My XPS 17 from 2020 has a worse trackpad than my 2012 MB Air.
Framework working great now.
Me over here with a 2021 XPS 15 using a mouse 24/7 because the touchpad lags hard on linux but refuses to admit I got burnt lol. I'd be over the moon if framework released a 15" model.
I just couldn't be productive with the laptop, ya know? You gotta be able to move!
The XPS isn't a great example of the best PC hardware, but it IS a pretty good example of the best laptop performance one can get for the price of an iPhone. ^^
My advice is to try out the trackpad on a laptop before you buy it if this is something that matters to you, not trust the opinions of Internet strangers.
Regardless, the comment stands, as even though Apple's trackpads have improved I would still strongly prefer a device with physical left/right buttons.
This really applies to most products, especially those that you interact with so frequently and directly. It's one reason that in the EU you have a 14-day "right of withdrawal" for all purchases made at a distance (most commonly being internet purchases).
I can’t disagree, but trying out Mac hardware is far easier than trying PC hardware. I can walk into an Apple store and try all the major hardware variations.
I had to get my XPS 17 based on online reviews. Because I can’t go out and try it. Buying PC laptops is the very definition of trusting internet strangers.
(The rest of the laptop is equally bad, but that's a different story.)
>0th gen Intel processor
>0GB of memory
>0hrs of battery life
>0GB/S SSD write speed
I've been burned in recent years by trying to use AMD stuff with Linux and just running into even more weird, minor hardware incompatibilities than usual. For now I would not buy an AMD laptop again.
They do some things better than Framework such as supporting Ryzen processors, and seem a bit cheaper overall. The battery life seems like it would be better. They have a spare parts store as well and a full disassembly guide as well as an "open warranty". I was never a fan of Framework's swappable ports.
The biggest disadvantage seems to be that the screen is bog-standard 16:9.
I'm curious on the quality of the speakers, webcam, keyboard, and trackpad. I have a feeling they will not be great - in comparison to a Macbook at any rate.
From reviews it looks like the trackpad is poor because it is not whole-trackpad clickable, and the keyboard is also poor due to the short key travel.
Are there any other decent alternatives available in the UK?
Bigger than that IMO is 14" @ 1080p. It's just too little for daily use for me. Framework are so far the only ones in this market segment who have ever marketed >1080p laptop displays AFAIK. I have a hard time understanding why there is such a lack of higher-res panel options across the market, even when seemingly all other relevant specs are high-end.
I'm sure like usual when this comes up, some people will come reply with "you can't make out the difference anyway", which is just not true. Some of us prefer smaller fonts and higher information density. 8px font size is just less ergonomic and more tiring for the eyes. For 16:9 14" I just won't consider anything below 1440p.
If it works for you, great, I'm just tired of people telling me I don't understand what I want and I shouldn't have to write a blog post justifying myself everytime I claim that higher screen res makes a huge difference for my use-case. It's not like Chinese language is an edge-case.
No, and people perpetuating this myth is what annoys me - that physical size is comfortable for me and that's what I use on a daily basis.
Try 8px font of full-width Chinese characters on 14" 1080p next to the same effective physical size on a 4k and if you still tell me it's too tiny to tell, well, I guess we have different eyesight and preferences.
One practical aspect is how they are very inconsistent in making crucial firmware updates available. In theory, they're on fwupd/LVFS. In practice, that can lag behind by months or even years and the only way to get necessary updates to get security fixes or get certain hardware working is many times to boot from Windows.
I feel like I get updates fairly often with my p50 on Ubuntu which is 5 or 6 years old at this point.
My gen 9 x1 carbon is the best Linux machine (which includes desktops) I've ever owned.
Dell has sold their Linux-ready "developer edition" XPS 13 with a UHD+ screen for quite a few years now. (They max out at 16GB of RAM, though, unfortunately.)
Dell isn't quite as "open" as something like Framework or System76 (or Star Labs), but they at least sell their Developer Edition laptop with Ubuntu preinstalled, at your option, and claim the hardware is supported properly in Linux.
(I say "claim", because I have the 2018 model, with a fingerprint scanner with no Linux driver.)
Fingerprint reader support for Linux in general has been a sticking point for a very long time, including on the XPS series. (I still fondly remembering the blobs needed for my old ThinkPad's reader to work...) But it's basically the only thing that requires blobs from my knowledge. I don't even bother with it on my stock Fedora install, though it is quite slick in Windows, I admit...
Currently announced:
* Lenovo X1 Carbon G10 - 14" 16:10 3840x2400 500-nit 100% DCI-P3 60Hz IPS
* Lenovo ThinkBook 13X Gen2 - 14" 16:10 2560x1600 400-nit 60Hz IPS
* Lenovo ThinkPad Z13 - 13.3" 16:10 2880x1800 400-nit 100% DCI-P3 60Hz IPS
* ASUS Zenbook 14X OLED UX5401 - 14" 16:10 2880x1800 550-nit 100% DCI-P3 90Hz OLED
* Asus Vivobook S 14X OLED - 14.5" 16:10 2880x1800 550-nit 100% DCI-P3 120Hz OLED
I'm also keeping an eye out for the next gen refresh of the Tuxedo Infinity Book Pro 14 - they use a 16:10 2880x1800 400-nit display as well (these are a TongFang ID4H1, and XPG and some other OEMs also use a similar chassis).
To be fair if you get the on-site repair warranty, that is pretty great.
I am currently still using my old X1C2 from 2014. That's quite reliable by my standards. I would prefer to continue with Lenovo due to reliability and good Linux support (there is a dedicated engineer for that matter who is available on their forums and who help various distributions including Debian and Fedora to make things work). I was waiting for the Gen 10 but battery life seems disappointing on Windows, so I am waiting for people to test on Linux. Gen9 only has FHD+ or 4K+ (too low and too high).
> pulseaudio -k
I've been pretty disappointed with my Lenovo X1 Carbon and don't want another Chinese laptop, so I'm thinking to go ASUS. Currently maybe one of:
I think the thing with the currently available Vivobook Pro 14Xs (M4700/N7400) is that they're currently last-gen Ryzen 5000 and Intel 11th gen chips. Even though I'd like to try out the OLED display, I'd probably go w/ the G14 atm - Ryzen 6000 and also you get 1 unsoldered DIMM slot so you could probably get yourself get up to 40GB of DDR5.
While Asus doesn't give a crap about Linux, there's a pretty active community (focused mostly on the G/M ROG laptops, maybe another good reason to go w/ the G14): https://asus-linux.org/
It seems like these days there are always si0x/s3 or other power drain issues w/ non-validated Linux laptops though. A good reason to support companies like Tuxedo, System76, Slimbook, Starlabs etc that at least make some effort that their EC/BIOSes actually play nice.
Until recently I agreed about absolutely no Nvidia, though it might be improving. For a few months now the drivers support the standard Wayland interface GBM, which at least means any compositor should work with them.
Not all configurations one these white labels are the same though since OEMs usually can choose what quality display panel, trackpad, etc they want to use...
I agree most OEMs are bad, but the specific ASUS models I've mentioned, along with Thinkpads in general, seem to have better keyboards. Sadly Lenovo is making them worse every generation (with less travel).
Below 45W, Ryzen 6000 outperforms, and it's battery-life can be up to twice as good as Intel 12th gen in idle/low intensity tasks like web browsing though, so for a thin and light, my hope is to see a decent AMD model come out in the next couple months.
BTW, a couple years ago I did a review of one of the first 4800H Tong Fang systems (versions of this have been available as the Schenker VIA 15 Pro, Tuxedo Pulse 15, KDE Slimbook, and Eluktronics Thinn 15): https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDLaptops/comments/hunyv6/my_mechr...
It was pretty thorough and I answered a lot of questions so maye relevant still. Also, one of the things that I liked about the Ryzen laptops is that while it mostly wasn't possible to exactly undervolt, enthusiasts have done a great job documenting mobile Ryzen's power and thermal behaviors, and you can basically script it to behave how you want, when you want: https://github.com/FlyGoat/RyzenAdj/wiki/Renoir-Tuning-Guide
I use a toggle that runs `ryzenadj -f 50` for example, which allows full turbo/speeds, but hard throttles to keep my temps right below my fan hysteresis temp to keep it completely silent. This tends to be my favorite run-mode on battery (I have it attached to a udev script for when unplugged).
It is true for those people. No doubt that's not true for you, but you're not everyone. With fairly small screens (14" is small compared to a 24" desktop monitor) I genuinely don't notice the difference. I'm sure if you would put two screens next to each other I'd be able to spot differences, but in daily use? Not really. I used to have a employer-provided 15" Dell XPS with some >1080p resolution (I forgot which exactly) and I really didn't notice.
There are downsides, too: the computer has to work harder to render all those pixels and the battery life is shorter; my battery life was noticeably shorter than my previous almost identical XPS with a "normal" 1080p screen, so it's a trade-off.
Having an option would be nice for those who care about it of course, but I suspect a large section of people just don't care, and especially as a fairly small shop you can't do everything.
It's a tired myth that "the human eye can't perceive the difference and you don't either". We're all different, with different needs and preferences.
Yeah sure; actually, it just so happens I more or less said the same thing in a different comment a few days ago (very different topic, but similar sentiment): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30984309
I mostly just wanted to hook in on why these kind of systems still frequently come with a 1080p screen.
But 16×10 seems to be making a bit of a come-back, at least for laptops.
Makes me wonder why Apple is capable of building laptops that run for hours and have a high DPI screen then? Don't confuse Dell dropping the ball on hardware and software integration with trade-offs. There are upsides to high DPI too: you can turn off anti-aliasing since you won't notice it when the pixels are too small to see.
While what you say is probably true I just wish it was not the constant narrative around laptops that have nice screens. I bought a Samsung Galaxy Chromebook and absolutely loved the 4K OLED screen it had up until the day its WiFi suddenly died. Everything looked amazing on it - even just the boring ChromeOS UI elements looked amazing. However every reviewer had the same feedback - that you can't tell the difference and you should shoot for 1080.
This is weird to me because I feel like I have the opposite problem. I don't want retina displays I derive no joy from and that eat more power for that lack of joy, never mind cause problems with differential scaling if I plug into a lower res desktop screen. I find I can't get high quality laptops that don't force me to have a too-high density screen.
I have settled for the framework because everything else about it is perfect for me, but I kind of hope someday they sell a replacement non-hidpi screen for it and I will very much buy it. The possibility of those kinds of choices down the line is why I bought into it.
Retina is a slightly overkill for me too, but I'd still prefer it over FullHD.
System76, Clevo, and OP(StarBook) are all 1080p only. I'm sure I saw others I just don't remember right now.
For me, my big pet peeve is the difficulty of finding a high resolution (4K/5K) desktop monitor that is not enormous.
The Samsung is fine but the screen is very mediocre in comparison. The same dreadful 1080p screen as world + dog insists on these days. Gnome makes it more cramped by insisting on a top bar thingy. I'd love to have a much higher resolution and brighter screen. 16:9 is just way to claustrophobic. And why do window managers insist on this silly top bar these days? That just eats into already limited space. Currently using Gnome and of course the one extension for that that fixes that (auto hide the damn thing), promptly broke when I updated Gnome.
Writing this on my good old imac 5K; the original one from 2014. Now that's a nice screen. My 2017 15" macbook pro had the infamously shitty keyboard, which actually ended breaking the very nice retina screen by virtue of a loose key that inserted itself in between the keyboard and the screen when I closed it. So something that should not be falling apart actually fell apart and did maximum damage. Absolutely disgraceful. I'm glad they ditched that design.
The Samsung at a quarter of the price manages a nice keyboard (with numeric keys even), a passable touchpad (multi touch but mechanical click sadly) and even a nice aluminium cover. If it weren't for the screen, I'd call it a superior deal. About as fast, same amount of ssd/memory, and it runs a lot cooler (i5 with xe graphics). Also, no thermal throttling because it just does not overheat. But at this price, I'm not complaining. This laptop with a better screen would be an awesome deal. Somebody needs to start doing this. 16:10, 4K would be what I'd spend money on.
Mine has a 4K screen and to be honest it’s a bit of a pain at that size.
It looks great but everything is a bit small with pixel doubling.
If it boots in native res then it’s unreadable. You have to mess with grub and set the font size to something enormous.
I wish I’d opted for HD 1080 when I bought it. Would be readable and the battery life would be longer.
I'd probably opt for 1440p+, but given the rest and the price maybe not. For others, 1080 might be just fine.
There are plenty of options, just most of them aren't cheap, or fitting in targeted price range.
There isn't a lack of high-res panel in supply, but a lack of high-res panel in demand. Or in other words, no-one apart from Apple (not that Apple gave its user a choice, but let's ignore this for a moment ) manage to market Retina or high-res panel and created enough demand to sustain a different upgrade option or SKUs.
This then cycles back, without economy of scale, not just a vendor but the whole industry, high-res panel do not enjoy the unit cost reduction as standardise low -res panel ( or 1080P panel, which isn't really "low-res" ). So the cost of these specific panel are far higher, increasing BOM, increase RSP, etc. etc.
Next question that always comes after this answer is always;
>"But we have higher prices SKUs, it is not like there isn't a demand for current SKUs +$100 / 200"
Yes. But given the option to choose between paying extra $100 / $200, the market tends to flavour for more memory, faster CPU or better GPU. Not higher-res panel.
It really does make you wonder why there such a noticeable difference!
[0] https://youtu.be/LkYB931iUjc
I should hope so! :P
For some weird reason if you pick a non-english keyboard you can only pick the i7-1165G7 (which IMHO is the worst proposal of the three available if you pick an english keyboard).
So you can charge over USB-C, but only if you buy a C-to-C cable and tie up the single USB-C port.
I feel like a barrel jack may be more resilient, if you're plugging it in twice a day.
You know what I'd buy? A proven laptop brand that a third party revamped/Coreboot-ed/etc. and resold. These mediocre, unproven, semi-bespoke laptops with third-rate keyboards and so-so screens (the two features that really matter to me) are never compelling enough.
- f1-f12 aren't split in 4-keys blocks
- backspace, enter, etc. aren't the right-most keys. No additional spacing too on the right
- cursor block with crippled up/down
Touch-typing would be a nightmare. But backlight, yeah...
(and those aren't speaker grills either; just aesthetic markings)
https://www.starrlabs.com/
I really don't understand the appeal of laptops, it only makes sense for the people that is really on the move like university students or blogger. Even then, they only need cheap laptop for browsing (cue memory hod jokes). That or you prefer to do your work at public spaces like libraries or cafes.
What's the point of spending huge sums of money on a laptop that performs 1/3 compared to its PC equivalent? You're also stuck with that keyboard and monitor for the rest of its natural life.
And yes, I do more than just web browsing. Mid-range gaming (no, I can't play the latest graphics-heavy titles on this kind of hardware, but I don't mind), development, etc.
mobility - You can do your work in places other you workplaces/home. Change of scenery/environment is trivial. even inside your own house, you can work from your own bedroom, kitchen, lounge, garden, wherever you want.
Your last point is baffling, really. Just treat it like any PC. If you dont want to use the screen/keyboard/trackpad just connect what you want to the laptop.
Actually I dont see the point of mini PC. Theyre just desktop that you can lug without monitor and any input devices. What's the point of spending huge sums of money on a mini PC that performs 1/2.9 compared to its PC equivalent?
It's cheaper for the same specs; for example this StaBook with the 5800U is €1074, but their mini-PC with the same CPU is €786: €288 cheaper! You can also put a 2.5" SSD in it next to the MMC drive (my E585 also allows this, but many laptops don't). And for a lot of "serious work" I use my USB keyboard and HDMI screen anyway: the laptop doesn't really give any advantages here.
A desktop computer would be like a ball and chain against that level of freedom.
I highly doubt that the ergonomics of the hammock setup you have going are any good. And by ergonomics, I mean RSI and other related posture injuries.
It's gotten to the point now that I am increasingly frustrated with the fact that there are no good USB-C capable hubs that take a USB-C USB 4 and turn it into an 8 port USB-C hub. With a mix of 10 Gbps/5 Gbps/480 Mbps speeds.
I can get plenty of USB-C to USB-A hubs, but that is not what I want.
> 8 port USB-C hub
And I believe a major reason for the lack of these, is that, if a dock/hub/etc. that consumes a USB4/Thunderbolt host port, wants to be able to expose a full-speed USB4/Thunderbolt downstream port of its own, then that port isn't going to work for peripherals that are picky about speeds/lanes if you have any other USB devices plugged into the hub. So vendors choose "the ability to plug a single Thunderbolt device in, plus other things" over "the ability to plug a bunch of USB4/3.2 devices in."
And I definitely don't want my default to have to be using adapters for my USB-C devices, so they can be plugged into the USB-A ports.
If we're settling on "charge/power everything with USB!" I hope the next version (USB F?) holds up better to more "abuse" than charging a phone on s desk or end table inflicts.
The world has moved to a single standard for charging for all devices, we're just waiting for the "transition period" to run out as the devices with nonstandard charging expire, it's inappropriate to design new hardware with an obsolete charging approach.
> my experience with USB charging ports is that they always break, and then they're a huge pain to fix, and my experience with barrel charging ports is that they almost never break, and then fixing them is pretty easy
The opposite for me. I’ve broken a proprietary charge port and had to wait over a week for the replacement. Never broke a USB-C port, but if I did it’d be no big deal since I have plenty of C connectors in my cabinet. I can solder a replacement in 10 minutes.
> So I think of a computer that can only be charged via USB as a piece of cheap trash. Maybe USB-C is different on this axis
Wait are you saying you’ve owned a laptop that charges over USB, but not USB-C? If so that laptop really was cheap trash. Why compare trash with flagship products?
USB-C is a completely different ballgame here. It has its flaws but it's nothing at all like that weird little era of laptops.
Also makes for the possibility of "Redundant Power Supply", in case you use your old Laptop as a "HomeServer".
Most laptops with multiple USB-C ports should be able to charge from any port.
Barrel connectors are physically much more robust: they can rotate around their axis without imposing any torsional stress on the device being charged, and the longer lever arm inside the charging device (typically 15 mm) means that flexural stress around other axes creates much less force on the connector. Consequently, they break much less often than pre-C micro-USB connectors. It's too early to tell whether USB-C will improve on its predecessors in this regard, and it may, but it seems unlikely to reach barrel-connector levels of reliability just based on its geometry.
Barrel-connector ports are easier to repair when they break: there are only two wires, and they are quite thick. This is true a fortiori for the cables.
Barrel-connector charger faults are easier to diagnose: either the voltmeter tells you it's outputting 19 volts open circuit (or whatever the rated voltage is), or it's not, or, rarely, it has the correct open-circuit voltage but sags under load, the diagnosis of which requires a voltmeter and a power resistor. Moreover, they are less likely to occur; you are not going to break a bipolar SMPS with static electricity, not even if it is attached to a 5-volt USB cable, but you can easily do that to the CMOS control chips necessary for USB-C voltage negotiation.
Barrel connectors pose less of a security risk: they do not, in most cases, have a data connection at all, and a malicious charger definitely cannot execute a firmware upgrade attack on your device through a barrel connector.
Against this list of technical advantages you claim that barrel charging ports are "nonstandard" and "obsolete" — not because of any actual USB-C functionality, nor even because there are more USB-C-chargeable devices in the world than devices with barrel connectors, but just because USB-C is newer and currently fashionable. The maximally charitable interpretation of your post is that USB-C chargers are capable of providing a range of different voltages, so the complexity of voltage conversion goes into the charger instead of your headphones. But that's an extremely weak argument; a buck converter capable of deriving 5 V 300 mA from, say, 19 V is already much smaller, lighter, and cheaper than a pair of wireless headphones, and adding USB-C charging support to your product also requires a significant BOM cost, and the necessity to operate on 5 V as well as whatever it prefers, though maybe less weight than the buck.
What's inappropriate is that you're attempting to dictate decisions of technical functionality on the grounds of mere fashion and social approval, then shaming others for disagreeing with your judgment rather than supporting it by any actual arguments.
I predict that >99% of devices made this year that can only charge through USB-C ports will be nonfunctional in 15 years. That is, they are cheap trash, designed to be discarded rather than repaired. You should be ashamed of yourself for attacking my social standing to convince people to accept this inferior technology. The form of your argument — a veiled personal attack — makes it unworthy of being posted on this site, or, actually, anywhere.
[1] https://plugable.com/products/tbt4-hub3c
Gives you power and three usbc.
EDIT: sorry, i meant QHD (1440p) (2560x1440)
After the popularity of 4K, somebody noticed that they could start calling 1080p 2K to make it sound better than 1080p. If you say 3 MP, does that sound even better? I mean, 3,000,000 is more then 2000 right?