Shouldn't you say that we got spelling assistance correct instead of right? Left-handed people might not like to see the word "right" being used to mean "correct"
As a left handed non birthing person, I was very offended by their comment. Also I was a little offended by your comment, please in the future include “L” or “R” at the beginning of all messages.
Thank you for attempting to be a left handed ally.
What i don't understand is how they can roll out this feature, while the last few weeks I've suddenly started getting spammed in Google Drive with obscene garbage that can only be blocked on an instance by instance basis. Surely they could offer some gate that allows the user to deploy such filters where they actually want them?
Well, such things are always driven by demand. And unfortunately, there is a strong demand in our society for policing words, renaming formulas and issuing apologies all while:
* Property ownership is becoming out of question for an increasing fraction of Americans
* Any kid of retirement (as in not having to work and enjoying life off your savings) has become a pipe dream
* Having a single-income family with one parent dedicated to raising the children has become unaffordable.
* Even if you managed to put enough effort to teach your kids the values of hard work and setting long-term goals, the public education system is set to confuse them and kick them off that path, so they will never be competitive with those who received education abroad.
At the same time, the media oligopoly [0] keeps ignoring the problems and pushing the narratives how addressing short-term emotional problems is the top 1 priority, and anyone who wants real prosperity instead of taking a part in the never-ending mutual comforting game is the enemy of the people.
I wonder if people will ever realize they are being manipulated into poverty before it's too late.
What? The 2008 Mortgage Crisis was the biggest news story for at least a year.
Comparing that to "inclusivity" is also strange because inclusivity is not an event. A single event has a natural decay of relevance, the further into the past it gets.
> What? The 2008 Mortgage Crisis was the biggest news story for at least a year.
It was an event that absolutely decimated MANY people in America financially. And for many of those people, their only fault in the whole thing was, I guess, being ignorant enough to be taken advantage of.
We spend a lot more time discussing things that are a lot more irrelevant than that.
> Comparing that to "inclusivity" is also strange because inclusivity is not an event. A single event has a natural decay of relevance, the further into the past it gets.
OK, then instead compare the general theme of the 2008 Mortgage Crisis / Occupy Wall Street. Specifically: how much time do we spend talking about a small group of powerful elites pulling the financial strings in this country? And how does that compare to how much we talk about "inclusivity"?
The money and power concentrated into the hands of relatively few is an issue that is _several_ orders of magnitude larger than the "inclusivity" stuff we're fed much more often.
The items on the list are the problems relevant to most Americans. Except, the human brain has a limited capacity for "currently tracked" problems and tends to pick them proportionally to the amount of attention paid to them.
So the media is abusing it by spamming people's attention with disproportionately exaggerated problems that don't cost the elites anything to solve, so that people won't have any time left solving the problems that would look bad on the corporate bottom line.
He's pointing out that focusing on issues that don't have real impact is starving us of our ability to focus on broader, more serious issues. The shrinking of the middle class is a tangible problem. Words being insufficiently inclusive is not.
What I don't understand is, where is this perceived demand coming from? I think it is an extremely small minority that happens to be extremely loud on social media and in corporate circles, so the perception of how important this issue is has become grossly exaggerated. I don't think this is purposeful malice on anyone's part, I think it is just a product of social media amplification and the elites desire to constantly virtue signal to each other that has led to this absurd loop in our culture.
Unfortunately, there is a very solid explanation for it and it doesn't yield a good prognosis:
1. There is a small minority of people who truly believed in it in the first place.
2. Then there are people who exploit the system by charging hefty sums for diversity trainings (and calling any opponents to such spending racist).
3. Then there are people who sold the #2 group the student loans and gave the degrees where all you need to graduate is to repeat a fairly basic set of dogmas.
4. There are people who are disillusioned about the whole thing, but are now stuck with the student loans and no other way to make comparable money.
5. There are entrepreneurial people that want to make a change, but since most business niches are occupied by the corporations, the only outlet they have found is to join the diversity & inclusion effort.
6. There are people that want to get rid of their competitors. And since being not inclusive enough is now a firable offense, they are stuck competing who can say more things they don't really believe in.
Ironically, it reminds me of the political situation in Russia, where many people support the war despite suffering economically from it, despite having their children slaughtered, despite losing the rest of civil freedoms in the past months. The mechanism is the same: if you don't play along with the narrative, the competition will eat you alive. And it you overplay it in a clever way, you can get a promotion or a government contract.
I wish sociologists actually studied such phenomena rather than being another echo chamber for the same narrative as everyone else.
Imagine the life of someone who thinks that this is a good and important change. It's probably miserable-- a slight around every corner and no higher purpose than bulling people over terminology. Instead of anger, try gratitude that you're not in their shoes.
The comments on this thread have given me hope for humanity and freedom of expression. Depending on where you read this news you could be forgiven for thinking that you're in the wrong for disagreeing.
In the article they use the example of "Motherboard" and "Landlord" and seem to suggest that these are areas where the Google AI is making mistakes or being overly strict.
As a Google employee expressing my own opinion and observations of company culture, I can say that these are 100% not mistakes. Many Google employees are just so out of touch with the real world that they believe it is the duty of Google Docs to change the English language to exclude the words "landlord", "motherboard", and even "mother" in most contexts (sub with birthing person).
This may seem unbelievable, but the word "motherboard" is literally banned within Google and you are required to use "mainboard" instead. You are not allowed to use this word in documentation or code, and you're also not allowed to say it privately in chats or emails.
Putting myself in the shoes of a kid learning about computers, I find some of these phrases to be more clear, not less clear.
Two examples:
Allowlist and denylist are much clearer to a kid learning about computers than whitelist or blacklist. If you've never heard of whitelist before, it's sounds like a list of things that are white. If you've never of allowlist, it's pretty obvious what it means - a list of things that are allowed.
Similarly, mainboard is clearer than motherboard. Mainboard implies there's one main board. Motherboard could be more ambiguous to someone who's never seen the inside of a computer. Are there two boards, mother and father? Do boards somehow inherit from one another? Is there a grandmother board that's even bigger? Obvious to us, but not obvious to a kid learning computers for the first time.
Not saying these terms are better (there's a huge switching cost and the terms are less colorful), but do want to point out there are dimensions to consider beyond inclusivity. One benefit is better language precision.
> Mainboard implies there's one main board. Motherboard could be more ambiguous to someone who's never seen the inside of a computer. Are there two boards, mother and father?
Am I crazy or does mainboard strongly imply there's more than one -- eg main, supporting / secondary, etc? Stories have a main character which is almost by definition not the only character in the narrative.
"Parentboard" is probably better than "mainboard", but given the choice between "motherboard" and "mainboard", which are the two currently-accepted terms for that particular component, I'm going to go with mainboard.
Edit: isn't the videocard technically a "non-main-board"? I mean nobody called it a "daughterboard" but it kind of technically is one isn't it? And so if "mainboard" implies the existence of "non-main-boards"... that accurately describes its relationship with the video card, which is a baord.
Good point. A similar lack of clarity also tripped me up when some documentation switched from "master key" to "main key" because there actually was an additional concept called a "standard key" which seems to have a lot of potential conceptual overlap with "main key".
It appreciate the idea to make language more precise where possible.
However, terms like motherboard and whitelisting are just a few in the universe of complicated (yet gender neutral) terms like GPU, CPU, DDR, parity, firewall, IP6, etc.
Of course, that is not a reason to not improve the language where one can, but I don't know if it will help that much in CS.
In reality these types of changes often just make learning more difficult, because now you have to learn that it's called both "motherboard" and "mainboard". At least for a generation or two.
This entire comment is a lie. Terms like "motherboard" are readily findable on Google's internal search. I could not find anything referencing a banned non-inclusive words policy in the employee policy guide. I have never heard of anything remotely resembling someone catching heat for saying "motherboard" or whatever.
You're welcome to ping me internally. It's in the banned words list (happy to share a link internally) and I double checked policy before posting this comment to make sure I was accurately representing the rules that are applied to me as an employee.
based on dannybee's comments elsewhere, the list you're referring to is actually for external product comms, not internal googler comms.... could you elaborate on your position further?
That's not true, there are a few internal-only lists that have different contents (lots of overlap but not 100%). Different PAs have adopted different lists.
I don't want to share the name of the internal one publicly, but anyone at Google can ping me if they want help finding it, or they can search "respectful words"
Since you work at Google, maybe you can answer this: does internal tooling exist to flag occurrences of "bad" words in say, code reviews or shared documents?
Former Googler (until a couple of months ago). I've never seen anything like it, but maybe I just didn't use "bad" words in code? There were presubmit checks for typos and such. Also, IIRC I asked people in code/design reviews to rename white/black lists to allow/deny lists, but it might have just been in docs.
I did get an angry code review response from a fellow engineer once, after writing in a commit description (not the actual code) something like "this is a stupid fix but it stops the linter from bitching about so and so" - for using both the words "stupid" and "bitch". I guess the second one was on point but referring to my own work as "stupid" is pretty okay in my book. I would never ever describe anyone else's work as such.
> I would never ever describe anyone else's work as such.
But someone reading your commit message doesn't know that. Someone new to the company might see your change and think "That looks reasonable to me", but see that you called it "stupid", and start to doubt themselves.
Although it makes technology more boring, I think there is some value in using precise words over emotive words. Perhaps using the word "pedantic" instead, or "no-op", would have conveyed more information, without disparaging the amount of intelligence that went into making it (or into the design/configuration of the linter).
> "I asked people in code/design reviews to rename white/black lists to allow/deny lists"
Odd thing to do. "Black" is synonymous with darkness, hidden, off, empty space, and things of that nature. For this reason "blacklist" works. There is no clash with people, or any disrespect.
Politically correct OCD invents problems. Then dictate to others how they should solve those problems. Add penalties for those who don't follow the prescribed solutions to invented problems, and we find ourselves in 2022 looking at Google's efforts to solve the invented problems.
The author of the Vice article states that by removing master/slave and black/whitelist, it "addresses years of habitual bias in tech terminology".
Accusations of bias are just accusations. We can't "find" bias on the grounds of matching words in technical contexts to the same words in other contexts.
In the S&M world, the context is not actual master and slave, it's a new context that encompasses consent and good times. Likewise, the technical context is not one that involves people, but machines communicating under specific rules which "master/slave" adequately describes.
> Terms like "motherboard" are readily findable on Google's internal search.
This is meaningless. I work at a large organization that has banned terms like "master/slave" and "whitelist/blacklist", and I can also readily find these terms through internal search, simply because it's taking a while for the requirements to be implemented and enforced.
> I could not find anything referencing a banned non-inclusive words policy in the employee policy guide.
This also doesn't mean a lot, unless you've comprehensively searched through every possible location for the relevant policy, as almost every organization in existence has terrible knowledge management.
Go talk directly to someone in HR and tell me if they tell you that those words aren't restricted.
I am incredulous at the "mother" to "birthing person" requirement. I have seen one or two people with such prescriptive views on language but the vast majority of people I know consider it ridiculous. And I am in an incredibly "woke" social bubble.
The point is previous things you thought were ridiculous were normalized, in a very deliberate process. So to it will go with "mother", if the past is any indication. However, it may not be, because people are (ironically) waking up to this.
Encountering this aspect of the culture war always makes me wonder why are tech companies so focused on these gender minorities and not, say, on the disabled groups. There are more blind, deaf, mute (etc, etc) people in the US than transgender people who will bear a child. It would be equally incoherent to attempt to replace all usages of “see”, “hear” with “perceive”.
> Go to any college and you'll see the CompSci department is the one with the most amount of LGBT individuals.
Do you have any data on that? It does not coincide with my anecdotal experience. I'm in a Math/CompSci department and there's zero trans people here (that I know of), while there are some in other departments. Anyhow, trans people are a tiny percentage of the total population, so it would be hard to have somewhat solid statistics on them.
Interesting. I don't have data, but it heavily correlates with my school and what I had heard from others. There was like a big cadre of trans people in the CompSci department, then a few in the Math department.
There was a smattering in other afaik. I was on the board of the LGBT club so I knew at least the ones who were out / came frequently.
But wouldn't an underrepresentation of disabled people be cause for concern in the industry? There are more legally blind people in the USA than there are Native Americans yet at the political stage there is very little interest in coming up for those people.
Several impressive videos on social media have shown that programming without using vision or even hands is perfectly possible, there are very few good reasons why such underrepresentation shouldn't be corrected for. In fact, I believe for many disabilities a job in fields like data science or programming would be much easier to adjust for disabilities than many other sectors where interactivity is key.
Oh, I have OPINIONS about why this might be, as someone who was one of the teenagers on LJ back when this weird ideology (the bastardization of intersectionality/identity politics that's taken over all non-right discussions) started. I'm a disabled lesbian, so I get a front row seat to how some forms of discrimination 'matter' more than others.
It boils down to a few things:
1.) A lot of this identity politics is coming from upper-middle class people of color OR white queer people, who are using it to make money and boost their careers. The disabled are, in America at least, far less likely to have careers to boost. This is why the type of disability activism you see in identity politics is usually limited to mental illnesses.
2.) The disabled, to some degree, disprove some of the ideological underpinnings of modern identity politics. Modern identity politics is based on the idea that if we change society/fix discrimination, then everybody (all groups) will have the same rates of success. But even if social discrimination didn't exist, those of us who are disabled literally can't do things able-bodied people can do. There's an undercurrent of 'discrimination is bad BECAUSE all these groups can be normal/productive/participate in capitalism' and the disabled make people confront that they don't actually believe all people are equal. They believe all PRODUCTIVE people are equal, but they can't say that, because then they sound like those 'horrible' right wingers.
3.) Fighting on behalf of the disabled doesn't make people feel like they're 'on the right side of history'. I've experienced a shit ton of sexism and homophobia from right-wingers, but most conservatives would be horrified at insulting me for having MS and agree that I should get help if I need it. They just disagree on how it should be done. That's harder to fight about, which means it's harder for the media to turn into a frenzy, and that's where people on both sides get their 'marching orders'.
>This is why the type of disability activism you see in identity politics is usually limited to mental illnesses
You are using the term "mental illness" in a way that seems to exclude people for whom it is obviously a disability. These people are characterized by:
1. One or more hospitalizations that are not voluntary.
2. Diagnosis by medical professionals, not psychologists or oneself.
3. Having to take medications forever, at least in order to be employable or generally take care of themselves, that cause substantial long term effects including diabetes, brain damage, disfiguring tics and involuntary movements, recurring tumors, sudden death, and other problems.
The people you are thinking of, who act like it is possible to normalize and be open about mental illness, are, let's say "type A", while I have defined above what I'll call "type B".
I just want to call your attention to the fact that "type B" people are erased as much or more by "type A" as the visibly disabled that you acknowledge. You are inadvertently promoting that erasure.
"Type B" people bridge both worlds but can't talk about it normally. I do recognize the emotions regarding "type A". I recognize why they do what they do, and I see you embracing their compulsive erasure from existence of "type B".
The issue of productivity is difficult, if you think there is a right answer. If someone can work, at incredible cost, should they not take pride? Yeah, it's luck that I, or anyone, can work, but you wouldn't sneer at someone with an intellectual disability that was bagging groceries, would you?
I meant it in the way it's typically used in disabled spaces, where it's a contrast to physical disability because the two experiences are different. Mental illnesses are/ can be disabilities, I wouldn't disagree, but there are differences that make mental illness advocacy well-suited to an intersectional framework in ways that physical/intellectual disabilities aren't. (Since you mention them, intellectual disabilities are their own third, distinct category).
Mental disabilities are frequently easier to hide (much like being bi is easier to hide than being homosexual), which means that people with mental illnesses/disabilities are more likely to know how people treat them before and after finding out they're disabled (as opposed to someone whose disability is physical or intellectual who are more likely to always be seen as disabled and not see that on-off switch to ableism). People with mental illnesses are also more likely to have difficulties stemming from stigma and erasure vs. physical limits (I'm not saying any difficulties are worse than the others; they're just different) and intersectionality/identity politics has a lot of focus on correcting or changing behavior and thoughts to improve society.
Intersectionality/identity politics, in 2022, don't really do a great job at changing physical reality, which tends to be more necessary for physical and intellectual disability activism.
There are also historical reasons for the intertwining of mental illness advocacy and intersectionality (the rise of intersectionality/id politics in the upper-middle class coinciding with the rise of psychiatry/therapy/ the move to destigmatize mental illness, for example, whereas the sensory and physically disabled communities had their own activist movements/organizations for decades/centuries beforehand which made them more likely to have disagreements).
> Yeah, it's luck that I, or anyone, can work, but you wouldn't sneer at someone with an intellectual disability that was bagging groceries, would you?
Of course not, but I'm not a capitalist (or a communist, for that matter). The point is more that a lot of people into intersectional activism claim to also be anti-capitalist, but their embrace of diversity often depends on diverse people being able to work and if they advocated for the disabled, they'd have to confront that they can't use 'disabled people can do anything able bodied people can do' as a reason, which means they'd have to articulate some reason diversity matters other than to let marginalized people/ their pet companies make $$$.
I just think if said grocery bagger had to stop bagging groceries that they don't lose value as a human. Of course everyone should be proud of what they can contribute to society and their communities.
>Mental disabilities are frequently easier to hide (much like being bi is easier to hide than being homosexual), which means that people with mental illnesses/disabilities are more likely to know how people treat them before and after finding out they're disabled
I understand where you're coming from, but the implication that someone with a mental disability has control over how they're perceived, or even accurate knowledge is wrong.
If they share information, there's no going back, and it can have devastating consequences.
If they don't intentionally share information, it may leak out anyway. Everybody knows what "crazy eyes" are, and gets uncomfortable if someone rambles on too much or shows excessive emotion.
If I look normal, but I have difficulty walking, and sometimes limp a bit, nobody is going to kick my leg when they notice, to prove that I'm not dangerous and they're not ill but I am. And if I share that I have a club foot, or that my lungs are damaged so I don't get enough oxygen, it's not likely to destroy relationships or seem relevant to share with everyone.
On the other hand, the slightest hint that someone might be mentally unstable leads to immediate concern - is this person a threat? Everybody knows this, and every crazy person feels exactly the same way around someone else that might be crazy. They feel it from both sides, but you have felt it from at least one.
So the way you prove someone isn't a threat is by testing whether they are vulnerable, and if they react incorrectly to that test. You prod them, you try some BS to see if they get upset or respond "normally". It's like being out on a tree limb and hearing a crack. You hold on to something and wiggle it a little to see if it's about to break. Everybody knows this from life experience.
I guess what I'm saying is that the uncertainty and ambiguity around mental illness is its own horror show of catch-22s, not a kind of privilege.
Someone with serious mental illness has to be tranquilized more than just enough to function normally, but enough to suppress normal reactions to provocation.
And once that is accomplished, they cannot share information about their condition indiscriminately because they are totally vulnerable. They can't casually ramble on about their thought process, because it will sound paranoid, no matter how controlled their actions are. Even to other mentally ill people because everybody thinks the same way, because it's logical but awful.
The choices that someone with an invisible condition other than mental illness, have, do not exist for someone with it. Every case where it is suspected, entails the threat of being outside the basic social contract.
>I just think if said grocery bagger had to stop bagging groceries that they don't lose value as a human
Sure, what I meant is that if their job is an immense source of pride and purpose in life, then aren't they in effect promoting the work-based ethic that bothers you? How can you have values without devaluing people who have different values?
FWIW, they do. There's constant efforts to ensure apps are accessible if you use a screen reader and to not exclusively rely on sound for notifications. Additionally there's care to not assume people are using keyboards and mice when interacting with something ("tap" vs "click" vs "select" vs "pick", etc.). At least with the teams I've worked with there's a considerable amount of effort done in these areas.
I've been incredulous to this stuff for 15 years, but violating rules I was incredulous about 5 years ago would be fired and black listed from my industry now.
Maybe the pendulum will stop or swing back, but "that's not going to catch on" has been wrong for nearly two decades.
Because saying this stuff is akin to vowing your allegiance to the party in authoritarian regimes.
Or repeating the cult dogma in a cult.
This isn’t about rationality or what is ridiculous. It is about proving that you are part of a group. And to prove that people have done insane things for thousands of years. Much worse than calling a mother a birthing parent tbh, but it shows you what direction we are headed.
And interestingly this seems to apply to corporations too. They too (probably because of management), want to demonstrate they are part of a group/cult.
> you're also not allowed to say it privately in chats or emails
In this context, what does it mean? For the other stuff, it is easily envisioned that it means official documents need to be scanned for prohibited terms. Ultimately, the term "motherboard" has to at least appear in an official document of banned words. In private chats, do they rely on the other party to turn you in? Is it automatically detected? Are you prevented from actually typing it? Can you post this link [1]?
As someone fairly familiar with the SJWs in a variety of FANGs, motherboard/mainboard doesn't even offend me any more. I kind of get it, even though it is lame logic.
I'm waiting until they start marking "Latino" as non-inclusive, and start forcing "Latinx".
I mentally cannot process "Latinx" to be pronounced as anything but "Lah-tinks". I am prepared to be fully shafted if I ever have to say that word outloud at work, because people seem to visibly cringe when they hear it pronounced this way.
> though not a latino and not in the US, so I wasn't yet under any pressure to use it
To be fair, I've literally never heard anyone try to pronounce "latinx" outloud. And I live in one of the most stereotypical liberal/left-wing cities in the US (Seattle). The usage of that term seems to be mostly confined to a vocal twitter/internet minority and written form (whether online or in promotional materials for certain things).
Even here, this term is extremely fringe irl. And I don't think I've ever felt pressured to use it either, given I've never heard it in use (despite my friend group having a couple of people who are very left-leaning and are vocal about it).
I guess tl;dr, don't mistake a fringe vocal minority on the internet for an accurate representation of what it is like to actually live in the US (even when it comes to certain most heavily stereotyped big cities).
Nothing made me quit NPR, i just prefer to consume it in the same form as most of my news-related stuff, in written form. Nothing against listening or watching it, i just find it easier to process things like that by reading.
With that in mind, i guess i mostly meant "people you actually talk to or hear talking not in public news media" when i said that i dont ever hear it said outloud.
Yeah, fair point. Unless your social circles include ultratwittered people and/or media personalities you'll likely never hear it in meatspace-- even living in the bay area.
I mean, media has enormous influence. If a term is constantly present in every newscast, movie or newspaper around you, people will probably start using it at some point.
> people will probably start using it at some point.
I am not disagreeing with you, and sure, your future prediction is not out of the realm of possibilities. I am just saying that I am yet to see it happen as of today. And I don't really care to be outraged about something that isn't a thing yet.
It isn't global warming or some other thing that is difficult to reverse or has some life/death stakes. Language has been perpetually changing, and still is. Really fast, and really wildly. So making a trouble out of "this one word might become used in future in real life at some point, so you should worry about it now" is not something I am really into wasting energy on.
I find “Latinx” to be so unbelievably stupid because the English “x” sound doesn’t exist in Spanish. Rather than using the gender neutral form “latine”, some moron decided we should start injecting Anglo idioms into the Spanish language
LatinX is complicated. If (white person) corrects someone of hispanic origin that using the word latino is offensive and they should use latinx - I've gotten some pushback. It may be best to just let the folks who care about getting to Latinx hash it out themselves. I've started seeing folx as well instead of folks. Was curious about the offensiveness of folks?
Thank you, very interesting. I'd always taken gender neutral to include non-heteronormative genders. But I started seeing things like folx - confusing because I hadn't understood the word to be gendered or only gender normative.
I think it's a bit unique to folkx because instead of using gendered language (hey guys) folks have moved to hey folks. So I've only seen it on things like that (gender neutral references to other people).
Folx is just a way to signal that you are woke. Since they have pushed folks for everything and co-called "normies" are using it now, they need to go a step further to make sure you know they are part of the special group.
> motherboard/mainboard doesn't even offend me any more. I kind of get it, even though it is lame logic.
Same as "master branch"/"main branch". If there is an equivalent, less fancy and less controversial technical term, by all means let's use that instead. As long as you don't start with "childbearing person board" or "privileged branch" or whatever.
As someone who also works at Google, I agree that there is a vocal minority who want Google to be a promoter of progressive values, but: I think you nay be exaggerating things here.
I've never even heard of any controversy over the word "motherboard". I just did some internal searches. It seems to be a well-used word, both in code and in documentation. (I did a code search for both "motherboard" and "mainboard" and they seem to be used by similar amounts, fwiw.)
In fairness, I will say that I do watch my language more closely than I think is really needed:
The terms "whitelist" and "blacklist" are built into my thought-vocabulary. I do find myself switching to "allowlist" and "denylist" as I translate my thoughts in discussions. Not that anyone has ever "called me out" if I slipped up with "whitelist".
We're sure it's in a List, but the point is that the List is not uniformly enforced, and "motherboard->mainboard" definitely seems like one to go to bat against because it Doesn't Make Sense to get rid of it.
yes, I left google because of stupid shit like this.
More importantly: when I was there, I actively fought against this kind of shit, but it was clear at some point that the content moderation team had enough sway with execs that they were going to continue this sort of idiocy untrammelled.
From a purely linguistic point of view, doesn’t ‘content moderation’ imply a work slowdown? I would think any company would be against using anti-productivity language.
I think all companies realize they have a large amount of "sway" in the actual work that gets done, and things like TPS reports and content moderation get in even if they're a net productivity loss.
Once you stop thinking of companies as single entities and instead as large kingdoms containing many fiefdoms it starts making more sense.
You can see it even in this thread, there exist Lists and tools that can be used as weapons against other groups, even if sometimes they're not currently being used because they're not currently at war.
The list it is on is about what words to use in external product documentation and marketing.
Not some "if you use these words internally the word police are going to come after you" list.
I'm going to be charitable and suggest this person is just accidentally leaving out context, rather than deliberately trying to rile people up because they disagree with something :)
I mean, I'm still pretty shocked to hear 'motherboard' isn't allowed in external product documentation. I don't think it matters if it's internal or external.
"Mainboard" is arguably a bit more literally descriptive: it is the main board of the device.
The figurative part of "motherboard" is pretty vague: it's just larger than the "daughterboards" and in charge of them--it doesn't birth or nurture them or do anything that's stereotypically maternal.
Often power is transmitted from the motherboard to be daughterboards, and the two are connected via a conduit like a fetus in the womb. It's not a completely arbitrary metaphor.
As for whether it's the main board or not, surely that's a matter of opinion. An AI researcher would be much more interested in what the GPU board is doing than on what the motherboard is doing.
It's certainly more central to the device itself. You can run a computer without a GPU, NIC, sound card, etc, but regardless of the peripherals you want, you're gonna need some kind of motherboard/mainboard to tie everything together.
I've heard claims that it's a motherboard because it has female connectors (i.e., sockets), but that's sort hard to square with the contemporary coinage of "daughterboards."
Motherboard isn't offensive. It shouldn't be offensive. If someone is offended by it, that is a problem of theirs.
The idea that a large, influential organization plays along with the idea that "motherboard" should in any way be filtered is as absurd as filtering the words "table" or "stereo".
Sorry, but i'm going to trust the folks who think hard about what should and should not be in documentation that ends up in literally hundreds of different countries more than an an absoluteist HN statement that "it's not offensive" from a random person.
But in typical HN fashion, i'm sure you know better. Just like the people who say that X or Y should take 2 people over a weekend.
Remind me again what your experience is here to say they are wrong? Are you a culture expert of some sort? It's really not obvious from your HN profile or comment exactly why you think your expertise should overrule theirs.
Otherwise, i'd say it sure is fun to get upset and pretend it's the reactionary woke police, rather than a group of people carefully thinking something through.
Saying that something is or isn't offensive doesn't require being and expert in cultural studies. You just know it by the virtue of being part of the culture and observing what the trends of the majority are.
I think your militant stance on the subject is more problematic than someone else's view that the word motherboard is not offensive.
Also, advocating for some narrow unknown group of people to have exclusive right to define language gives off a little cultish vibes.
See, this is the whole issue right here.
It's not about a single culture. It's hundreds.
This wordlist is for global products with literally billions of users in literally hundreds of countries.
Yes, it requires experts to know what will be inoffensive to all of them at once (or at least, the vast majority).
Your "narrow unknown group of people" is really "people who are experts at language and culture and understand this".
Paying and asking them to help figure out how to create common standards that will cover the majority of the hundreds of cultures at once does not seem cultish or militant at all to me?
It is something literally every single company with literally billions of global users in hundreds of cultures does.
Otherwise they end up naming their product something offensive to a culture, etc.
News stories about those gaffes occur literally all the time, so i'm sort of shocked you are really trying to argue that trying to avoid them is somehow cultish.
I am probably one of the least "politically correct" people you will find, and i'm not even all that progressive in the scheme of things, yet this clearly makes sense to me.
So I look at this, and see HN having a huge overreaction because they are upset the world is becoming a lot more politically correct for no obvious benefit.
That bothers me too - a lot in fact. I just don't see the particular thing complained about in this part of the thread (a wordlist used to ensure google doesn't say offensive things in product documentation) all that objectionable.
The original article, about offensive/inclusive/etc AI writing nudges, bothers me about 1000x more than the wordlist.
Again, you literally know nothing about how or why the decision is made, but are 100% sure about what happened and why. Yet they are the problem and not you?
I would urge you to actually seek facts first, rather than make them up yourself just because you are sure you are right.
It's not a particularly helpful approach.
Trust the experts? Really? To people on HN, most of whom have been using the term motherboard their whole lives without incident and who are, in fact, computer experts?
It's quite obviously not a carefully thought through decision, it's more or less random machine-gunning of random words that happen to have the word mother in them because ... well ... because they think motherhood is offensive? Presumably? It's impossible to discern any logic here. This supposedly expert decision is already leading to near universal derision towards Google, a once universally respected name. That derision is now also coming from left-wing media outlets that you'd expect to be fully supportive, like VICE. That's because it's quite obviously insane. Nobody is looking at this and thinking "about time", they're thinking "wtf is that?!".
I'm talking solely about the internal wordlist the grandparent is whining about, not the AI writing thingy.
I don't have a real formed opinion yet on the latter.
For the former, it's none of the things you say, and AFAICT, you have precisely zero knowledge of either the decision making process, or how it is used, etc.
So saying "it's quite obviously x" seems trivially wrong.
No one in this chain said that, however. Some person gave an opinion and you then replied with "you don't have any knowledge on this". Even though in this case, it is indeed a cultural question which everyone has some knowledge and likely opinion on.
If you want to encourage others to seek more information out (if it's out there), then sure. But at some point it just sounds like you're appealing to an authority that doesn't exist here. And honestly, who IS the authority of a thing like language and its usage is a conversation in and of itself.
I "trust the experts" on a number of things, but the spectrum shifts a little with cultural discussions, and it's precisely because Google is so incredibly influential that I am suspicious of actions taken that seem to be the modus operandi of a portion of so-called socially-progressive people who try to "nudge" society through the intentional shifting of language.
I would be interested to see the rationale for the change, if it is so clearly benign and not part of any secret-sauce or competitive advantage - similar to the AP Stylebook.
This isn't a debate about cloud security, or strongly-typed languages, or the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and its impact on the Earth. It's a cultural discussion, and I believe citizens should be encouraged to form an opinion, rather than insulted and berated for having one.
You actually didn't defend your position in any way on the topic, you only berated me for not having faith in closed-door internal Google processes to alter the use of the English language.
From another comment:
>you have precisely zero knowledge of either the decision making process, or how it is used, etc.
Isn't that the issue being brought up? Let's be charitable: Could it be that "mainboard" is the English term used by ESL speakers across the world, and "motherboard" is only used in the US/UK? Perhaps. I know you work at Google, but I am surprised at your surprise that people would be skeptical of that company's motivation.
I'd be interested in your opinion on the first-order topic, and also why you're so angry in the second place.
As an ESL speaker I can confidently tell you that in French the correct term, approved by the "Office québécois de la langue française" (Québec's office of the French language), for mainboard and motherboard is "carte mère" (carte<->board and mère<->mother).
Even google translate mainboard to "carte mère" !!!
I’m a “go along to get along” Asian but even I think this level of obsequiousness remarkable.
These departments have an expertise, sure. But part of being an intelligent, critically thinking person is knowing when people are speaking within the scope of their expertise and when they aren’t. You and I both know that this wouldn’t hold up under Daubert. This isn’t like telling you not to name your car the “Nova” in Spanish-speaking countries. It’s like trying to make “LatinX” happen.
I represent a culture of 100+ million people in my country, 300+ million in total speaking my (non-English) language natively. Motherboard is the word every single hardware repair shop or seller is going to use when talking about motherboards. It might be hard to imagine from a certain perspective, but the vast crushing majority of humans worldwide is entirely unbothered that some words are feminized.
Does "motherboard" even make sense as a term? It's not like a motherboard gives birth to little baby boards that eventually grow up to be mother and father boards of their own. It's just one of those weird words we accept because it's been part of a shared vocabulary for so long. I don't particularly see any harm in assigning a gender role to a hardware device, but I don't see anything is particularly gained either. "Mainboard" is fine.
I'm fairly sure that "motherboard" came about as a term specifically for computer logic boards with slots that other cards -- "daughterboards" -- plugged into. It's very much from the 1970s era when we referred to "microcomputers", "minicomputers" and "mainframes". Granted, I'm a Mac user -- the last time I bought a "motherboard", I think it was a Pentium 4 -- and we tend to use the phrase "logic board" over here in Apple land, probably because, other than debatably the Mac Pro, we haven't had motherboards using the canonical definition for a very long time.
At any rate, while I wouldn't go out of my way to squelch the word, I wouldn't go out of my way to insist on it, either. "Logic board" and "mainboard" both work and get the point across.
Unfortunately most of the people pushing hardest for unionization in tech are exactly the same people pushing the woke craziness. In fact, one of the main reasons they want unions so badly is to use them to make more and more insane social justice-ey demands and add the illusion that there is broad worker support for them.
They do this with the knowledge that most people won't stand up against them out of fear, even though they don't agree with them - the sociopathic Google walkout organizers leveraged this to great effect when they collected signatures and then changed the text of what people had already signed to be a psychotic list of unreasonable demands, knowing that it'd be career suicide for any of us to complain publicly about it (there wasn't much public noise but a lot of us were really pissed about that privately). Surprise, surprise, the overlap between that group and the group later pushing for unionization was nearly 100%.
Started kicking off in universities around 2014-2015, really accelerated on social media (and by extension legacy media) through the Trump years, and has been solidly established across the corporate world as the college students of 2015 entered the workforce.
In the United States the fundamentalists have been doing it for much longer then that as well as people such as the members of the Parents Music Resource Center who controlled a considerable amount of political power.
This idea that it is a recent invention isn't really supported by the reality on the ground. Things like the satanic panic, Dungeons & Dragons / Metal being satanic, Rock being evil, and a host of other things have long been used to remove "undesirable" people for a long time before 2014 on both the local and national level.
The extremes have always used shunning and economic warfare tactics to shut up those who disagree with them.
Uhhh ok yeah all those people who lost jobs and couldn't find employment because they listened to rock music/played DnD. Sure.
The DnD panic was about kids. It was about kids. I find it absurd to go after DnD like that but I don't recall ever reading about people being shunned, losing there jobs etc as happens these days.
Having lived it yes people got shunned and people got fired for it. Same thing for daring to say that LGBTQ deserved equal rights or to use the term from that time gay people. Much the same happened to some who said that black people deserved equal rights.
People have, for many many centuries use various shunning tactics to enforce their will upon others.
The majority imposing language norms on the minority is fundamentally different than a minority using their influence over media, corporations and institutions to impose language norms on the majority.
Lol, come-on, do you really believe this? The first victim of what people call "modern cancel culture" were the Dixie Chicks (now The Chicks) when they made an incredibly mild criticism of president Bush a few days before the invasion of Iraq during a concert in The UK. It costed them their position as one of the top country acts in the country.
With the rise of social media. The modern "cancelling" could not exist without the viral phenomena that social media enables. Of course, you could always be fired for saying unaceptable things in the past, but now it actually ruins your entire life, you can't escape it.
The banned words list they are referring to is about what words should be used in external product documentation and marketing :)
Not about what you are allowed to say inside google, or anything like that.
It is the same logic as why we switched from "fireman" to "firefighter" or "stewardess" to "fight attendant" decades ago. Because some people find the old word offensive. The only real debate is the size of the "some" and whether that "some" is small enough to ethically ignore.
The thing is, those substitutions are logical because "fireman" doesn't refer to female firefighters. But "motherboard" is different, because "board" doesn't refer to a person.
Perhaps, but this is your opinion. Maybe you are in the "some" for certain words and not others. I am not in the "some" for "motherboard" so I can't tell you exactly why people are offended, but I know they are. Whether the rest of us think someone taking offense is logical doesn't stop them from being offended.
I very much doubt anyone is actually offended by the word "motherboard". More likely it's a dumb inductive argument. "Some people are offended by some gendered words => every gendered word might offend someone => every gendered word must be eliminated as a precaution".
This is basically a semantic debate, but I guess this all is anyway. I don't disagree with the pattern you are describing, but I would describe it a slightly different way. There are people getting offended on the behalf of other people who potentially might get offended. Even if this second group never materializes or doesn't even exist, that first group is still getting offended on their behalf.
Basically I don't believe that "precaution" you mention is an apathetic but cautious person. These changes are more often motivated by someone who thinks "this might offend someone so I will take offense to it too".
The exact same pattern was leveraged against blacklist - a word that has absolutely no connection with the skin color usage. It has been removed by notable projects and people were up in arms talking about it being necessary due to "people being offended".
Motherboard. It took me a few moments to guess as to why this is a "problem".
Obviously due to the word mother. Let me roll my eyes.
Frankly it is completely absurd to be offended about a word that is part of a process that keeps our very species existing. Sadly I would not be surprised at all if there are google employees who are offended on behalf of "people being offended".
People are wild. You can find small groups of people who do and think insane things. We as a society should not try to cater to every possible sensibility. That's a recipe for disaster.
Exactly. Mainship instead of mothership? I guess male and female plugs/sockets are off limits now too.
I'm tired of this sort of shallow, performative, language policing. I'm (I believe) a socially progressive, inclusive person, but this shit makes me tired. Just fucking leave it alone and spend our collective fucks to give on something that actually matters.
Imagine a future where babies can be incubated in an external enclosure, rather than a womb.
This doesn't seem too unlikely. I've been hoping tech would go this way -- We're doing IVF in June, and it's still hit-or-miss whether it'll work.
In that future, if someone identifies as nonbinary but still wishes to have a child, neither "mother" nor "father" would accurately describe them. And since a womb isn't required for a baby, there's not necessarily any "mother" (nor "father") in that scenario.
That said, I think the argument is "mainboard is better than motherboard for the same reason that denylist is better than blacklist -- the whole point is so that people don't have to be reminded of social issues whenever the word comes up in discussion."
As an african american, I never particularly liked the whole black and white argument (literally in this case) because those words and concepts go beyond western culture and even civilization. "black" in this case isn't referring to me anymore than a black mage is referring to me in DnD (I don't play magical classes). It's from a much more fundamental concept that humans are diurnal creatures that can't see well at night. Or rather, the "black of night". the unknown is scary, night is full of the unknown. This is why every culture has some concept of "black is scary", because we all have this natural fear or discomfort of what we can't see (our strongest sense).
If nothing else, maybe we should revisit the language as a whole and its obsession with overloaded homonyms.
Perversely though, when I see someone say "denylist", it stands out as an odd word, and it makes me more reminded of social issues than if they had just said blacklist.
Some languages have gendered words as a fundamental grammatical aspect of the language (though since this language aspect evolved out of earlier grammatical distinctions that had nothing to do with “gender”, frequently the gendering of words is kinda random). English doesn’t have grammatical gender, and it has a relatively small set of words in its vocabulary that are specifically gendered. The argument goes that the use of some of this vocabulary is harmful, and that it’s easier to try to move away from using the whole class of gender-specific vocabulary words outside of actually gender-specific scenarios than it is to try to define and keep track of which gendered vocabulary words should be discouraged. Words like “motherboard” are collateral damage of this broader effort to discourage use of terms like “mothering”, which can be used in English to mean both “being mother to”, but also in a metaphorical generic sense as “being responsible for and looking after”, even of things that are not children, and is discouraged in favor of “parenting” or “caretaking”, which have the same implications but without the gendered aspect.
If the objection were to parenthood, which is to say if nurtureboard or parentboard were similarly offensive, then I agree this would have been a stupid stupid choice.
The problem is that you had a motherboard and daughter boards, those were the accepted terms, and never fatherboard or son boards, never parentboard or child boards. Why were they gendered female in the first place?
Because they had “female connections,” which is to say their use is in plugging pins into their sockets.
Obviously that is a sexual analogy that did not age particularly well, this idea that a motherboard is the motherboard because you shove stuff into it. So people started replacing with mainboard because it makes more sense...
>Why were they gendered female in the first place?
well, for this context, it's called a "motherboard" because "mainboard" was already a thing. Motherboard was to distinguish at the time how this new board can be expanded upon by plugging in ports. There was no real malice here, it was just fancy marketing term that stuck.
Ultimately, we're humans and we try to anthropize all kinds of things in life to make them "feel relatable", be it animals, boats, hurricanes, or yes, computer. so that extends to our language as well. Especially in marketing where the goal is to make customers feel good and close the sale. There may be a conversation on WHY we do this, but starting that conversation on the foot of "well people just want to be sexist" won't get us anywhere.
It's more likely that it's a similar naming to mother lode, i.e. the motherboard is the central source of the computer and everything connected to it is a child that hangs off of it.
mainboard does not even communicate the same concept. A main board might be one of several disconnected boards where it performs the primary function, not necessarily the singular substrate on which all other components are hosted.
> "Avoid referring to people in divisive ways. For example, instead of referring to people as native speakers or non-native speakers of English, consider whether your document needs to discuss this at all"
Directional terms like that would be confusing in a lot of infrastructure discussions. An outbound firewall rule's "outlist" is the list of things that don't go out.
Well yes, traffic lights are a problem, I’m red-green color blind myself. But the brain is smart enough to supply the right „color“ because it knows that red is on top and green is below.
Wait a second, is that offensive towards the color green? ;-)
I've always wondered how you handle those lights at night, if you can't see the enclosure; and how you handle the occasional horizontal traffic light, which my town has one of.
Greenlist and redlist would fail in a global company. Plenty of cultures use red as a color that promotes positivity rather than a negative color. Japan has blue rather than green for their "Go" color. And so on.
And for those who would like to change this, any change to a pilot's routine has a chance of being the thing that pushes an incident over the edge into a crash. Would it be worth it?
I would predict that the same people who say we should defund the police (the ones that mean it literally), and say that "being on time", "work before play", and "be polite" is part of the white oppressive culture[1], and needs to be dismantled, would also argue that flying, and the methodology of the NTSB (and foreign equivalents) that has reduced airline accidents of the decades, is also part of the structural racism of white dominant culture.
I'm not saying this is a large set of people. But it looks like some of them have power at github.
I guess if you're doing software for the airline industry you cannot use github.
Well, honestly I wouldn't use github for anything if money depended on it, because of their record of "firing" customers who don't toe the line on their exact politics.
[1] I'm quoting training material that even passed HR review in corporate education DEI here. It's not hyperbole.
Does this mean we should never make progress or change anything?
Also if your tutorials are using a base repository to work from, then you can still have the branch "master" it's just not default. So your existing repos should still work. And if you changed your repo then you should be responsible for updating your documentation to reflect that. It's just good practice.
What about giving master a new meaning? Actively banning it conservers its original meaning. Probably nobody today thinks about woman sitting in a room doing calculations when we speak about computers.
I fail to see how changing the names from "master" and "slave" makes any "progress" at all. What is the most concise way to express the idea that one entity is totally subordinate to another, and must comply with every request the other sends?
I struggle to come up with any two terms that make this more clear than "master" and "slave". Just because we've abolished chattel slavery, doesn't mean we should avoid the very words themselves when they are appropriate. Destruction of meaning is far worse than some abstract offense that doesn't seem reasonable to take on behalf of a computer process.
This is tech. 20 years of tutorials are always becoming slightly wrong.
Don't tell me you're still using bare pointers, `new` and `delete` in your C++ classes instead of using smart_ptr fields, or explicitly declaring local variable types instead of using `auto`...
It's an amortized zero cost because training material is continuously out of date and churning anyway. Amortized in the sense that the cost would be paid one way or the other, because people would still be updating their documentation.
You can make the same argument about breaking changes. Code is constantly changing and needs to be updated, so breaking backwards compatibility is zero-cost?
In reality each change that requires updates to documentation (or code) is of course not actually zero cost.
This is when Ministry of Truth comes into play. The main character's job in 1984 was literally this: rewriting history when it came into conflict with the updated "truth". Orwell didn't foresee that in a world of computers, such updates are trivially made: no need to reprint newspapers and books, since all of them are virtual.
But main also might be offensive because it's implying one thing is more important than another and some marginalized people who have not been the main group of people may not feel great about that. Really we should use one and two. But we should also be careful and should convene a working group with broad representation to come up with a more inclusive term for this.
See how this works? It is also definitely not without cost. It is not free to change all of your documentation and you will inevitably have to be exposed to it anyway because not everyone will have changed it, so it's ultimately not doing anything anyway.
The communication cost of the change is not free. Do you think the internal wiki and new-hire git training materials all updated themselves?
It wasn't a large process change. Most of our git users are competent git users. But I billed hours dealing with it.
I still have people here who haven't touched a repository that uses "main" instead of "master". They have better things to do with their lives than lurk social media focused on programming. They don't know yet. Eventually they'll pull something with "main" instead of "master". Can I get your phone number so you can be the one to explain to them?
I had a script that broke because someone changed master into main, put in an equation the 100 people that got satisfaction from this change and the tousands of people getting frustrated because of it.
Someone somewhere will be concerned by the literal words you speak, or the way you say it, or what you actually meant, intended or unintended. They will do it with good intentions or not, and no meaningful discussion will occur because it would be shorter, cost nothing, and offend no-one if you just let them win.
The mental model of how you use a certain branch could indeed be best expressed by the word "main", so no one can say the word isn't the best one for you to use.
But a master copy or version of something like a master recording or gold master for pressing records is different from merely "main".
Applied to software they are similar but not identical concepts, and neither is in any way wrong or harmful to anyone.
It's a small enough issue that it's not worth fighting very hard over, but, the rationale for the change, and especially for anyone trying to tell anyone else they have to do that change, is still invalid and the word master actually applies better if that's how you're using that branch. It has nothing to do with slave bosses.
> `main` is better. It's shorter, it's more descriptive, and costs nothing to remove something someone might find offensive.
All of these are true! I agree, "main" is a better name.
However, as to the larger point, the individuals and groups advocating for these changes also don't advocate for similar changes (that is, things that have good benefits but come with a very high cost to implement due to breaking backwards compatibility) around technologies/terms that they don't consider to be "problematic".
That strongly suggests that the driver isn't to improve technology, it's to shape language, with occasional incidental technological benefits - and the ignored technological regressions (it's harder to say "allowlist" than "whitelist", for instance, or to write applications that have a field to place in the user's preferred pronouns than just not address the user using pronouns at all).
> However, as to the larger point, the individuals and groups advocating for these changes also don't advocate for similar changes (that is, things that have good benefits but come with a very high cost to implement due to breaking backwards compatibility) around technologies/terms that they don't consider to be "problematic".
I actually know a social-justice oriented trans woman online who strongly advocates for the use of Tau instead of Pi because it is simpler and easier to learn. So sample of 1 there.
Tau vs Pi is a perfect microcosm of this debate with the social justice arguments removed. See also metric vs imperial.
The benefits are small but non-zero and localized to a handful of people, the new terminology is substantially simpler and cleaner, and the costs are primarily related to inertia and the comfort of people experienced with The Old Way.
> costs nothing to remove something someone might find offensive
But there is a cost. You're losing a battle in the war of free speech vs Orwellian thought control.
The woke (an offshoot of last-wave feminism, currently promoted mainly by the control-left strain of the Democratic party) are lying; they're not actually offended, they're just using that as an excuse (propaganda) and as an emotional appeal, to get you to agree to their arguments, and cede power to them. This is most obvious with "Latinx" which is pushed by white journalists & activists but which isn't even supported by the overwhelming majority of Latinos and Latinas in the US.
Don't believe me? Listen to what they (the woke) say themselves!
> I wanted to start by focusing on the obvious one, Its harder for them to object to just one to start with, then once they admit the logic, we can expand the list
I don't think Latinx is a good example. The GP mentions there's no functional cost to `main`, and this is true. Latinx has a functional cost in that the Spanish language literally does not support the phonetics of Latinx.
That phrase is going to die soon and it never picked up in Latin America. Most likely the queer community in Latin America will come up with more effective slang. It took the US queer community decades, a century? To reclaim and come up with effective phrases -- I think the main issue here is lack of patience and a somewhat condescending attitude from American liberals that we, the actual hispanic diaspora, need our hands held.
There is also what I've argued is a hierarchy of needs issue at play with LatinX. The problems facing the queer community in Latin America are more severe than those facing the US community, because it is a younger community in a more conservative atmosphere. Therefore, the effort is better spent advocating for table stakes, like marriage equality in some countries and reduced violence towards queer people -- there is no time to be wasted, right now, on the exact, precise terminology to use. And LatinX is not a way to win hearts and minds in this process.
Edit: this is NOT support for Google's product, which clearly broken and not useful. This is an explanation of why LatinX specifically is not a good counter-example to `main` versus `master`. I hope this pre-empts someone coming in and calling me all 'woke' or whatever is the cool phrase for dismissing people these days.
"Latinx" isn't meant as a counterexample to "master/main", it's meant to demonstrate that the woke don't care about preventing offence, but instead about power, even if it means enforcing non-sensical policies; the fact that Spanish has no "x" further reinforces my point.
On a data driven platform of all places, we should be able to mutually acknowledge that one Tweet does not a pattern or movement make. I, too, can raise anecdata that I've never seen someone justify LatinX as a move to gain power.
The fact the term is dying further reinforces my point: it failed. No power gained. Does optionally calling master 'main' give people power? Do you really believe that? As far as I can tell, the 'wokes' you are so afraid of seem to be failing pretty often recently. If I believed in the existence of the 'woke' monster under my bed, and they had this track record, I would simply ignore them.
Did 'wokeism' stop Disney from losing its special tax status in Florida? No.
Did 'wokeism' stop Texas from passing laws restricting transgender students and their families? No.
Did 'wokeism' stop the abortion bounty laws from passing in Texas? No.
Has 'wokeism' prevented the recent book bannings across the US; for example, the recent banning of math books in Florida? No.
Was 'wokeism', the root of this Orwellian system you propose will engulf us, the reason why state government in Florida censored the phrase 'climate change' in state congress? I would be very surprised.
Who exactly is gaining or losing power here? And why are you so adamant that the culture war will somehow involve GitHub?
There isn't, but if you are going to learn about computers then you're going to hear a lot about master/slave relationships. If you don't get exposed to that kind of jargon then it wouldn't surprise me if you don't have that connotation as strongly and instead only thought of master as in "mastery" or the degree after a bachelors.
I agree that "main" is better, purely because it's a more intuitive word for that role.
As far as "uncomfortable connotations", would you agree that that's a subjective claim?
I don't like that forced slavery is a thing, but I'm capable of handling context-specific word meanings, and of not getting emotional due to alternative meanings.
Slavery was horrible and should not be forgotten. Erasing all related words so that we can all comfortably forget it ever happened seems … wrong? That’s another way of looking at it, anyway.
Why? I think that slavery is bad only if the slaves are people. I want machines to be my slaves! (non-sentient machines only, dear future AI overlords!)
This counterargument is cute, but realistically if ever comes the day that slave feels like an appropriate term to use for my machines, I think I’ll still be a bit queasy.
Because the idea of a slave has immediate connotations of people being enslaved. I'm not talking in some broad philosophical sense of rightness, I mean it brings to mind, for me, thoughts about human slavery that are uncomfortable.
So what? Are we going to find a new word for "driver" because it brings to mind being driven to do something, without autonomy, perhaps against your will too?
Are we going to remove "duplicate" because we can somehow imagine that genetically identical twins are offended by this?
Are we going to remove "admittance" (inverse of impedance) because people will be uncomfortable when reminded that they weren't admitted to their first choice institution?
These are all equally ridiculous to the master/slave debacle.
Those are all ridiculous examples because they are purely hypothetical, but you're missing the point; if enough people felt strongly about those then yeah, we'd probably change the way we talk.
Can you please not use the word s____? My ancestors were Slavs, and when I see the word it is a painful reminder of how they were treated as property by Romans who bought and sold their "ex slava" captives.
When I built a distributed system, I wanted to avoid the terms "master and slave" for the "coordinator and worker", so instead I chose something I thought was relatively less controversial- daimyo, honcho, and peasant. Only later did I realize I had merely recapitulated the power structure of feudal japan.
Actually quite a lot of things exploded. You just don't care about the people who had to pick up the pieces. Moreover, lots of git repos still use master so "new generations" will just have to do deal with pointless divergence and breakage for nothing. The change wasn't progress. It wasn't useful. It didn't stop anyone being offended. It was and still is pure make-work for absolutely no purpose beyond the demonstration of power over irrelevant things.
On landlord I can’t think of a proper synonym. Property owner and proprietor are broader categories of what a landlord is. They don’t mean the person you’re paying rent to for your housing.
To play along with this game, one can say that replacing "landlord" with "property owner" is offensive to those with ancestors who were deemed property.
It ought to be offensive to women because it suggests they can't be landlords-- a word which is already perfectly gender neutral in American English as far as I can tell.
Pushing back against this type of policy is generally a bad idea... There is a very vocal minority who will make life hard for you. This is a case where the vast majority know it's best to keep their thoughts to themselves.
> the vast majority know it's best to keep their thoughts to themselves.
If it's really the case that the vast majority of employees are feeling stifled by the company policy, isn't that a situation where forming a trade union could help?
The irony of workers rising up against oppressive supposedly left-wing rule is not lost on me, especially if it were to occur in Google's office in Poland.
Because the amount of effort required to fight people who are passionate about an ideology when you don't particularly care is far greater than just going along and changing a few words. Sure this can result in catastrophic outcomes sometimes (e.g. Nazism) but most people just want to get their paychecks and go home or do whatever job they have without going into politics.
Sure if you believe it. We also don't speak to each other to cater to people who are deaf, and we don't use sign language to cater to people who are blind.
Out of couriosity: Why then didn't flag it the actual n-word of all things?
> A transcribed interview of neo-Nazi and former Klan leader David Duke—in which he uses the N-word and talks about hunting Black people—gets no notes.
Edit: Also interesting that this comment is dropping like a stone in HN's comment ranking, even though currently the comment score is at 1. If I accidentally triggered some anti-flame or anti-profanity filter, I'm sorry.
Good point. maybe even Google didn't want to be seen as "hey, here are some suggestions how you can make your speech about murdering Black people more inclusive..."
We need Clippy back, with webcam functionality. That way he can suggest ending the word in an “a” if you’re black. If you’re not he’ll report you to HR.
> Edit: Also interesting that this comment is dropping like a stone in HN's comment ranking, even though currently the comment score is at 1. If I accidentally triggered some anti-flame or anti-profanity filter, I'm sorry.
Comment order is a function of both score and age. As far as anybody (except those who actually have access to the source), there's no other "hidden" mechanic.
Because it's not a list of "banned words". It's a list of words or phrases that might accidentally cause offense (apparently similar to some of the entries on the public style guide: https://developers.google.com/style/word-list).
For that role, there's no need to include the n-word, because nobody is going to accidentally put that in a press release.
(Of course, the lists were apparently compiled by total dorks who put in things like "terminate", "dummy variable", and "native". But the list being dumb is a separate issue from it from what you raise).
What is that good reason? The only thing I can come up with is "don't release internal documents", which is a blanket reason and not what I'd consider compelling, but I suspect I'm having a failure of imagination
Because it isn't compelling? It's purely to avoid admitting to something illegal. I presume that this person has a reason that is more nuanced than that, which intrigues me.
"Motherboard" is particularly unbelievable. The motherboard runs the machine. It's a woman in a position of power. Isn't that what everyone says they want?
Or is the idea to just erase the very concept of gender from the world? Welcome to OkCupid, I am a [PERSON] seeking [PERSON]
They'd do a lot better if it was pitched as giving people the freedom to dress and act as they desired as long as they weren't hurting anyone else, rather than trying to act like biology wasn't a thing.
I have zero problems with people dressing however they like, having whatever affectations they want and having sex with whoever is willing. I might not always find it tasteful, but that cuts both ways I'm sure so we can agree to be civil. The buck stops when you try to shame me for not calling a man a woman. Using pronouns should be a kindness like holding the door open for a disabled person, not something that sends emotional children into a socially supported temper tantrum when absent.
It's contradictory, there was already a movement (feminism) that promoted "gender is a social construct" which was to say, no one should be pressured into acting inline with gender stereotypes. Women can be masculine, men can be feminine, let bygones be bygones - the way you act and dress should ideally have no relationship to your sex.
The "men with gender identity issues" referred to by parent have this up-side-down, instead thinking that "social transitioning" aka "living as a woman" is a step towards being a woman, this is not destroying notions of gender, this is elevating gender over sex
That would be nice, but you have it backwards. In most cases the an attempt to make gender more central and essential, rather than less, by decoupling it from biology.
Which is why in some parts of the country children are sometimes being told that if they like boy sterotyped activities like tree climbing or boy stereotyped attire that you are a boy, rather than saying any activity or attire is available to anyone.
Rather than erasing gender it's power as a tool for enforced conformity is amplified by eliminating any requirement for agreement with a person's biological properties.
To exaggerate in order to make the point, it's as if we've gone from: "It's a womans' job to do the dishes" to "Anyone can do the dishes." to "The person doing the dishes is a woman, by definition."-- and the middle state's inclusiveness is increasingly seen as hateful because it denies people the ability to identify as a gender other than the one suggested by their biology through the performance of stereotyped behavior.
Erasure of "mothers" seems contrary to the trend at first blush, but it's made more clear when you see the suggested replacements like "birthing person" or "breeder"-- in this world view "mother" is a biological function, so it must be decoupled from gender so that the strongest possible gender sterotypes can be imposed on people regardless of their biological abilities.
You've written a very long comment about what you think other people believe (or intend), but it's not really clear to me that any of it is true.
For example, I don't think that anybody actually holds the sentence "The person doing the dishes is a woman, by definition" as true in their heads. That's simply not a thing people believe, anywhere along the political (or any other) spectrum.
If you actually talk to trans people, you'll find that most of them fall into the "nonconforming" bucket rather than some gender essentialist one. A lot of them are non-binary or otherwise have gender/sex identities that don't cleanly map onto maleness or femaleness. Given that state of affairs, it's a remarkable stretch to think that these people themselves would see neutral language as "hateful." And, in fact, they don't.
Perhaps I'll reach out to you for assistance the next time someone suggests to myself or a family member that they're trans simply because they engaged in an activity that broke gendered stereotypes. Maybe we'll both learn something!
I don't understand the relevance of someone offering you unsolicited opinions about your gender. The fact that they may or may not be wrong about both you and what it means to be trans doesn't have any particular bearing on whether transgenderedness itself is fundamentally "essentialist" in its performance of gender. Which it isn't.
I’d that were true, people wouldn’t lose their jobs over not using peoples preferred pronouns. It’s actually the opposite of what you say: increasing the number of genders and bullying people into accepting all of them as distinct
If your job is to come up with banned words and they've stopped using the banned words, you've got to keep looking for more if you want to keep your job. I don't think anyone's real job at Google is to come up with the banned words, but some people see it as their big impact and have been commended for it in the past (by leaders looking to bolster their DEI cred in the fakest, easiest ways) so they keep going even when the words seem less and less ban-worthy.
The most tragic part of the endgame of transgender ideology is the erasure of gender.
We'll promise them they can be a boy. They do all the things boys can: can play on the boys sports teams, use the boys lockers and bathrooms... And all the meanwhile we're banishing gendered extracurricular programs and making the bathrooms unisex.
We promise them we'll help them find their identity in gender, and destroy gender in the process.
Nature is full of males and females (with some species being exceptions); the concept of gender is baked in nature and will remain so for a very long time.
About the cultural aspect of gender: this video opened my eyes about what most people think it means to do things 'like a girl', and what it actually is supposed to mean.
> It's a woman in a position of power. Isn't that what everyone says they want?
Wouldn't it be equally problematic if they banned are male words and allowed all female words? If you're going for it, removing gender (from computer terminology) seems consistent. No one is saying to remove it from the world, but mainboard is just as if not more descriptive (to someone who isn't familiar with the word to start with), and things like allowlist/blocklist are much more self-descriptive than whitelist/blacklist.
If we're going to play this game, I think dissuading people from using "mother" in the example of "motherboard" is offensive. Mothers are the source of human life on earth, and in that capacity are revered and honored. When we say motherboard, we're making an analogy that suggests the board's significance and universal connection to everything.
To discourage the term as an analogy for things that are a universal source is to demote women and their role as mothers.
I'd like to know who at Google puts these lists together and what judge decreed their viewpoint on this more valid than mine or anyone else's, since apparently Google feels that from this judgement they have the right to shape speech for millions of people and therefore, by extension, our culture.
It's the natural outcome of far leftist ideologies. People need to wake up and start rejecting this destructive ideology where a person is evaluated only based on their identity. I think MLK had something to say about that.
MLK was a leftist - and arguably a "far leftist" for his time. If you're going to use him as an example, you may have to concede that this is not a "natural outcome" of leftist ideologies in general, but rather the outcome of some other selection pressure that rewards diversion from initiatives that actually affect peoples' material conditions.
As a first comment here, I'd point out that defining women independently from solely their role as mothers is judging them on character rather than identity, so you should support such a thing if that's your rallying cry.
But also, on MLK and postmodernism: postmodernism dates back to the 1940s, To Kill a Mockingbird is postmodern. MLK's Letter From a Birmingham Jail is very clearly postmodern (e.g. when he says "But I am sorry that your statement did not express
a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being.", he's alluding to a failure to consider the viewpoint of the oppressed in the situation).
That letter is also very modern-leftist. Kimberle Crenshaw coined the term "intersectionality" in 1989 and elaborated on it in 1991, saying "When feminism does not explicitly oppose racism, and when anti-racism does not incorporate oppposition to patriarchy race and gender politics often end up being antagonistic to each other, and both interests lose". The letter from a Birmingham jail includes another famous line from MLK: " Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly". To me, those express similar sentiments: that oppression exists in many forms in many places, and it is unwise to pretend that oppression that fails to inconvenience me is therefore unworthy of my attention.
And of course he says later on "there is a type of constructive nonviolent tension that is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must see the need of having nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men to rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism
to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. " which to me describes the people often criticized as "modern far leftists", those people who create the tension and discomfort in society are, in MLK's view, doing us, collectively, a great service.
I'd recommend you read the whole letter[0]. If you're so willing to lionize MLK, but disagree with so much of what he preached, I implore you to consider why exactly that is.
I only used MLK because he's a Western figure that stood up to racism. For us as Muslims, Islam set the guidelines on these issues a long long time ago. All people are equal under God, skin color does not matter. The only thing that matters at the end when we stand in front of Him is who comes with the most piety and good deeds, as those will determine where you end up.
This doesn't conflict with CRT or modern leftism though. If God's accounting of our deeds is perfect (or if God doesn't exist) should have no impact on our actions. It would be sinful to let injustice persist solely because God will even things out in the end. God doesn't give us an excuse to abdicate our responsibility.
This doesn't contradict what I wrote. Islam explicitly rejects racism, and makes it sinful. Because we're equal in front of God, this means that anyone treating someone else differently because of their skin color, race, etc. is going to be accountable in front of God for this sin.
It seems you're engaging in a straw man fallacy saying that we don't need to do anything because we're all eventually accountable in front of God. Islam never said that. Several texts and accounts explicitly call out racism as a sin.
CRT is a fringe offshoot that swings the pendulum so far out, it goes back to being racist, ironically enough. It is not the beacon of equality that its supporters claim it is.
I agree, I never claimed Islam said that. I claim you said that, which misrepresents Islam!
> CRT is a fringe offshoot that swings the pendulum so far out, it goes back to being racist, ironically enough.
What about CRT does this? The core idea of CRT (as you use it) is, I think the recognition that inequality exists, that some people mistreat others and that we should recognize that when it happens. What about that is racist?
> I claim you said that, which misrepresents Islam!
Where did I say that?
> What about that is racist?
CRT, and many other far leftist ideologies conform to what we say in Arabic: "A word (claim) of truth by which falsehood is intended"[1]. We see the same with movements like BLM (with self proclaimed Marxist founders), etc. They're crafted in such a way that if you argue against their actual behavior or criticize their actual behavior, they are able to retort with their canned response: ah so you're against justice/equality/are racist/etc.
These approaches are trite and people are waking up to them. We've known for millenia that inequality exists or the people are prone to mistreating others. CRT/latest fad of the day is not telling us anything new with that regard, but behind the scenes they're power grab movements.
I'll note that you didn't actually describe the particular things that CRT is that are problematic, only that it is in some vague way false. You haven't provided an argument, only a claim that they are in some way bad. Give the argument!
> CRT/latest fad of the day is not telling us anything new
I disagree. The CRT (again, insofar as it is a cultural thing that people argue against) functionally says that people who have power should account for the mistreatment and inequality when making decisions. This is problematic to some people.
CRT paints whites as inherently evil, and coins such ridiculous terms as "white adjacent". Everything is painted in terms of "white supremacy", and it's honestly getting tiring and trite, even for non whites. Everyone is starting to see through the drama and the bullying.
Apparently, this is what's being taught now: https://i.redd.it/vwuw7529iws81.jpg. Just an oversimplification, and dumbing down of any conversation. It's no wonder those people have built a reputation for being impulsive and not being able to take any criticism, retorting to crying and making fusses when they can't defend their positions.
> Everything is painted in terms of "white supremacy", and it's honestly getting tiring and trite
Ah, so it's getting tiring to see people discuss race and its impact? That's exactly the kind of reaction MLK was criticizing ;)
> Just an oversimplification, and dumbing down of any conversation.
Well yes, it's a children's book. Do you think it's a problem that discussions of the solar system or geology are oversimplified when explained to children? You're not even claiming it's wrong (perhaps because, fundamentally, it isn't).
MLK explicitly supported affirmative action and other programs designed explicitly to benefit black people in order to make up for past discrimination. I suspect he would be tired of being used as a justification for absolute colorblindness.
What he stood for changed over time, but at one point he said he hoped the decisions people made about his children would be made based on his children's character and not the color of their skin.
Yes he did say that one line in one speech. But if you review the totality of his writing, it is very clear that total colorblindness in the face of inequality was not his goal. The "I Have A Dream" does not represent some shift away from an earlier opinion. It simply doesn't represent the opinion that a lot of reactionaries think it does.
It is more of a natural outcome of silly corporatists not really understanding why leftists and progressives object to things, and so just reflexively avoiding anything that could be, however tenuously, linked to gender. They are concern trolling themselves.
But that's implying that only mothers give birth, and erases those who don't identify as mothers who give birth.
That's how I understand their thinking, at least.
I agree with you and think anyone who is offended by motherboard is silly. I'm sure it was never even anyone that was actually offended, but a group of people sitting down and looking at any and every word that has any type of gender connotation and saying that's a bad thing.
English has such a rich array of word choices for many parental situations, with many subtle variations conveying tone and meaning. MW has roughly 83 synonyms including both noun and verb forms, just for mother. I don't see how choosing any one of them for my particular situation will detract from anyone else's identity or journey: they are free to chose as well. Unless your tool bans 82 of them.
I think this completely falls apart because most of the women who give birth identify as mothers, and would be very offended if you told them they couldn't.
I wish there was more pushback against this insanity. I've also seen people want to erase the word "blindspot" from the dictionary... Even though I'm sure no blind person was ever offended by it, because that word typically is used to refer to the limits of people who aren't blind.
That can't possibly be true. If nothing else, it's erasure of adoptive parents, or mothers who didn't give birth, among which gay married couples are overrepresented. I realize there is infighting and factionalism even within minority communities, but come on, this stuff doesn't ring true. I've never heard someone called a birthing person outside of a joke.
For what it's worth, in support of the original comment's claim, I just dug around the Pixelbook documentation all over the place and I can't find any mention of the motherboard. But it doesn't seem they renamed it to "mainboard" or "birthing person board." They just dropped it from the specification completely and don't tell you anything about what kind of motherboard you're getting.
Sure. The OED even lists them as contemporary coinages:
[1965 Wireless World July 49/2 (advt.) Contact tail variations..include..tails for direct mounting to a ‘mother’ printed circuit board.]
1965 Electronics 6 Sept. 36/1 Nine daughterboards, each carrying 30 circuit packages, go on each side of a motherboard.
However, that's just an analogy: it doesn't actually tell you anything about what the motherboard does or why. In that sense, I think mainboard is actually a bit more descriptive: it's the principal interconnect between all of the device's parts.
Why not just… the “board”? It’s the only board. There are no other boards, as the things they used to call daughterboards are now “cards”. You plug cards into the board. Board goes into case.
In French we say "carte mere" which is the literal translation of motherboard (carte = board and mere = mother).
The thing is, all nouns in French are gendered, and carte (board) happens to be female. So it can only be a mother, and not a father board. And the reason is that it carries smaller boards, like a mom would carry her babies (in most mammal species, as far as I know, the mom is carrying babies even after birth).
A disque (disk) is male. But a floppy disk translate to "disquette" (small disk) which is female : le disque, la disquette. Don't ask me why, but that's who the language works.
This would drive Silicon Valley wokes completely nuts. The table is female, the cloud is male (note that, in Italian, clouds are female). The TV is female, the glass is male, the door is female, the handle is female, the window is female, the roof is male, the wall is male.
Their role as breeders and birthing people, you mean. Time for a trip to HR for you.
> they have the right to shape speech for millions of people and therefore,
Google', "Do the right thing" could be understood as "if you have the power to do something, you have the obligation to do so". I'd say someone forgot that most evil in the world is done by people convinced that they're doing the right thing, but if that were forgotten the old motto wouldn't have been an impediment.
You could ask what idiot gave google this power, but the answer-- to the extent that they have it-- is each and every one of us. Fortunately, it lasts only as long as we keep giving it to them.
I know we all see this as a slippery slope, but let's remember what's at the other end of the slope.
Anyhow, you might find it awkward, but the general assumption that "parent" is synonymous with "mother" to the exclusion of all other kinds of parents does real damage to inclusiveness, and the term "motherboard" flows from that.
I know your tongue is in cheek, but the mainboard may be considered a parent of the components, but it is not giving birth to them. "Parent" fits better than "mother". So your absurdist counter-argument doesn't really fit here.
We're programmers. We refactor mercilessly. Why shouldn't language be refactored mercilessly too? The term "mainboard" is available, widely understood, and well-adopted, so why not use that?
Because we don't want to keep handing out stupid prizes to the weenies that constantly force us to play these stupid games. Every time they win they're further emboldened, and that's not a good thing, since there are actual problems to solve.
You can refactor a piece of software you wrote, or a piece of your employer's software with his permission. But language doesn't belong to anyone, it's a collective consensus on how to say things. If you believe you have authority to ignore this consensus and force your opinion on others, you must have an incredibly inflated ego.
To be fair, the male/female nomenclature for connectors has been a mess for decades.
One old convention, mostly originating with radio-frequency connectors, is that the gender of the connector is the gender of its innermost contact. Thus, the plug of the common 2.5" and 2.1" connector of power supplies is technically female because the inner contact is a hole. The socket on the appliance has a pin in the middle and is technically male. When you try to buy one, half the time the part is labelled as male and the other half it is labelled as female.
But there is no problem bad enough that cannot be made worse by government. Years ago some US regulator didn't like the fact that people were plugging big radio antennas into wifi equipment, so they invented the "reverse-polarity" connector. What used to be a "SMA male" connector with a pin in the middle now is a "RP SMA male" connector with a hole in the middle. Here is a random link with a picture: http://cablesondemandblog.com/wordpress1/2014/05/05/reverse_... If you order this kind of connectors, now you have a 25% chance of getting what you need. One RP SMA male and a SMA female will mate together but not propagate any signals.
I can believe this. Around the time I left people were patting backs for fighting racism by getting rid of terms blacklist/whitelist.
Not something I feel super strongly about, but the fact that it's so scary to go against these stupid ideas is annoying. It's pure politics, there's nobody benefiting from this except the people claiming impact for antiracist work in their perf.
> Many Google employees are just so out of touch with the real world
This isn't remotely limited to Google. My company does this too. I've heard of others making similar changes.
Are these kinds of arbitrary changes to language usage silly and pointless? Maybe. But tough love here: languages change in arbitrary and pointless ways constantly. They always have. They always will. Your own common usages and idioms would seem outrageously weird to your grandparents. People had these same fights in the 60's, also 80's, and 50's... The 40's too now that I think of it...
To wit: we aren't getting oppressed here, we're just getting old. And the attempt to turn it into a political fight (on both sides) is largely just a reaction to the friction. It's not the cause.
I mean, really. Is "mainboard" such a hardship? It's not even a new word, it's two bytes and one syllable shorter. Must this be a fight?
If Google had shipped a feature that autocorrects my grandparents' slang to "dank" and "yeet", I'd be equally concerned! There's a huge difference between using fun new terms yourself and going around asking everyone to stop using the old ones.
People like turning a blind eye to what they feel uncomfortable accepting. That the world we live in is being increasingly influenced by just a few profit-maximizing entities.
>Many Google employees are just so out of touch with the real world that they believe it is the duty of Google Docs to change the English language to exclude the words "landlord", "motherboard", and even "mother" in most contexts (sub with birthing person).
It's frantic activity to avoid looking in the mirror. Making themselves busy fixing something massive and intractable to avoid having to think about the actionable items closer to home.
This is why I’m pessimistic about the West winning the second cold war. While Chinese engineers are working hard on world dominating AI models and other hard tech, Western engineers are wasting man hours on crap like this.
The west will win the second cold war because the communist party will not be able to release its iron grip on its populace. The Chinese people only accept that iron grip now because it's carrying them up from a low place, but once that stops the constriction will become suffocating, leading to civil unrest and diaspora of the upper tier of Chinese society.
There's a saying - "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent".
Even if there was some natural physical law that guaranteed that oppressive nations would eventually be overthrown/atrophy, there's definitely nothing that puts a bound on how long that will take.
And, as we've seen with Ukraine, war can break out more quickly than any of us think.
(also, if the social justice warriors in the West have their way, the US government itself would be overthrown and replaced with its own, authoritarian, but ineffective regime, long before a conflict with China would occur)
>if the social justice warriors in the West have their way, the US government itself would be overthrown and replaced with its own, authoritarian, but ineffective regime
The summer of 2020 was a great preview of what this dictatorship will look like once the USD collapses in value another 30-40%. Burning buildings and more statues of "heroes" like George Floyd, who stood up to White Supremacy. Remember, removing "master" from git repos was done because of the legacy of slavery in the United States.
Chinese have far bigger and far more strict word list bans.
In US, you need to say “people who menstruate” and “land owning person”; in China you will just just disappear if you say a wrong thing against the regime.
but the argument “I wish I was in China and I didn’t have to be careful what I say in public!” is so laughable if you have actually been in China or interacted with mainland Chinese
What are you basing this on? Have you had any substantial interaction with Chinese engineers? I'm asking because I worked for a well known Chinese behemoth for nearly 6 years and my experience doesn't match your assertion.
Interesting comment. Putin is continually making "west is degenerate"-ish remarks as a kind of justification for his invasion of Ukraine, and yet his words fall flat. It's obvious he's being disengenius.
It's like, yes, we know some over paid highly educated technologists are biased against but that doesn't equal the end of liberalism and democracy itself. His words are not at all going to sway any of the HN readers who may agree with him on cultural issues about the west, that Russia are the good guys!
Perhaps his words are meant to developing nations who are uniformly culturally conservative?
This sounds entirely fabricated. I've been in the hardware department for more than 10 years. Maybe you put a word in a list. I've never even heard of someone considering this.
Okay, for a moment, forget about your position or feelings about the issue. Would you say that these restrictions or changes actually changed anything for better or worse? Is there some kind of evaluation going on to track the results of these policies?
A worse one is to me is that they aren't allowed to say "Quantum Supremacy", because it reminds some people of "White Supremacy"? Nevermind that you actually give that concept more power when you make it so that even discussing it or inadvertently bring it up is stigmatized. Things are starting to get kind of Orwellian.
> This may seem unbelievable, but the word "motherboard" is literally banned within Google and you are required to use "mainboard" instead. You are not allowed to use this word in documentation or code, and you're also not allowed to say it privately in chats or emails.
Is this really true? I always thought I might eventually apply to work at Google someday, but I hadn't heard there was such aggressive internal thought policing.
That's part of Marxist long march through institutions. They achieve these goals through bullying and accusations. Nobody at work wants to be (unfoundedly) accused of racism so they silently accept these new rules. I mean it's a small inconvenience that is probably worth the salary they are getting.
But the truth is people in these organisations are afraid of speaking their minds in case they say something that is deemed wrong by woke police. I noticed that people have become less open and many limits conversations strictly to the tasks at hand.
It's kind of how corporate goals meet with Marxism - they believe people no longer engage in "pointless" socialising that affects the bottom line and if they want to engage, they have a minefield to navigate.
Many of my (former) friends who worked at these big corporations have become zombies - it's not possible to have a conversation with them about day to day life, events etc.
It's really fascinating and worrying.
Google is a large corporation. Large corporations will often enact arcane rulesets to give HR ways to manipulate their labor costs. This really sounds a lot like why this type of approach would be supported.
Not trying to troll here...but are there people advocating that we replace "Mother's Day" with "Birthing Person's Day"? If a person gave birth who no longer identifies as a woman is it not inclusive to gender the holiday as we do?
Can someone reasonably explain to me why mother or motherboard is offensive...at all?
I try to be somewhat reasonable. I can stretch my mind enough to see the complaint with blacklist at least. But mother being offensive...my mind isn't able to stretch that far unless I'm missing something.
How about "motherboard/fatherboard"? If we just use that everywhere they'll all be happy. No fatherboards will feel left out. Mother-of-pearl can just be nacre, and I don't know what you'll have to call mother-of-vinegar. Maybe just say it's something special and not to think too much about how fermentation works - especially if it causes you to have evil, non-inclusive thoughts.
If I'm writing about a ship and refer to it as a "she", does that set off the autoinquisitor?
A brilliant term, and it brings me back to what annoys me the most about all of this: Clippy was shite and got in the way of productivity, and now I'm going to have another "helper" in a tool that I use every day, and it is going to get in my way without even achieving its apparent goals because this stuff just does not work.
To push the Clippy thing further, Bill Gates once gave us "content is king". Google's Woke Clippy needs to learn that "context is king" - but it can't ever do that with language; well, not without a general AI.
eww. This has the same vibes as someone saying "I want to breed with them". Like sure, it's grammatically correct, but you're gonna come off as a creep at best and some weird fetishist at worst.
I wonder if this is an example of not knowing your audience (or rather assuming one's self represents a wider audience than it does).
The people vouching for this at Google are likely product marketing managers, public relations folks, social media managers, etc. All they do is write corporate garbage all day, and much like we have "nit"s in PR's for formatting, variable names, etc; they likely have similar reviews that get flagged for "non-inclusive language" or whatever this is. So they have brilliant idea: the Code people use auto linters/formatters that we enable by default (hey gofmt) and everyone loves it, how about we do the same for the Prose people!
Basically: "All I write is corporate garbage, and all the writing I consume is corporate garbage, and all my coworkers only write corporate garbage, therefore everyone would love a corporate garbage-ifyer!"
There's a market for 'help you write english better' tools that spot things like grammar errors.
For example, if my english-as-a-second-language eastern European subordinates feel self-conscious about their english, they might find an automated tool helpful - where a professional journalist would be better served by their own judgement.
The 'inclusive language' thing is just weird though.
Just like Google is not an actual search engine but a "recommendation" engine that prods users into getting recommended just what Google needs to recommend ("did you mean...?") this is not an actual writing assistant but a "write (and think) the Google way" mould
IMHO OK if the feature would actually provide explainations and it would be based on some sort of rulebook rather some random decision of individuals. I also would be fine if there is a warning if I use the word 'property owner' because some random internet user says that is deeply capitalistic. In the end I could decide if I want to follow the argument. Just nudging people to get away with a warning is bad and will lead to no warning. I doubt even that it will lead to a more inclusive world because no reflection is involved.
The problem for me is particularly that the combination of monopolies combined with AI that will learn from data largely filtered by those monopolies will generate some questionable gradients. So, yes, this might ultimately change language very quickly without much of human discourse over it. This will lead to language with less variation and arguably to a world that does not encourage variation and will be in effect less inclusive.
This explanation rings a lot more true to me than the rest of this thread. Everyone here seems to be looking into shadows for the woke gestapo, when I'd be willing to bet that this explanation is a lot closer to how this tool actually came to exist.
It's a little of both. There's enough woke influence over corporate communication to drive all employees to want to avoid non-inclusive words in docs. At that point, this becomes useful even for employees who don't agree with it—I'd rather just have the word flagged now and fix it instead of going back and forth later.
However, the net result is that words are driven out of the language even if everyone involved in the document wouldn't care.
>However, the net result is that words are driven out of the language even if everyone involved in the document wouldn't care.
No one uses "fuck" in corporate communication either. Is anyone worried about that word being "driven out of the language"? I don't think corporate speech is as influential in overall language use as you are implying.
> No one uses "fuck" in corporate communication either.
Swear words are specifically used to be provocative, so naturally they're not going to disappear. Words like "motherboard" or "whitelist" were historically neutral and primarily used in professional settings, so removal from corporate speech is correspondingly a much bigger factor.
To be clear, I'm not particularly worried or concerned about this. I don't consider it any great loss if we start saying "allowlist" and have happily changed my projects to match. It's not a big deal, and the kind thing to do is to go along with those who do care a lot.
Yeah, I generally either mock them or go into malicious compliance mode. Once they realise I really don't care about losing my job they stop pretending to care about this stuff
It's a perverted version of Pascal's wager, the "You lose nothing by pretend-believing" argument of theologians, but reinvented for an age where social mobs are the new wrathful God. If you stick your neck out and refuse the newspeak, you present a target for Them, you're essentially betting they're too weak to do anything to you, a bet you could either win or lose. But if you comply, then you're safe no matter what the actual influnce The Mob has. The Nash equilibrium is always choosing "COMPLY".
The classic mistake that Pascal and everyone using his argument to argue for their favorite God lies in the simplifying assumption :
- Compliance is cheap, low-risk and fixed-cost relative to taking a stand
Which gets less and less true as the Wrathful God (or His spokespeople) sees you're completely submitting and realizes they can continue making more and more increasingly humiliating demands. Soon enough, you discover you wish you had drawn the red line earlier.
“Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.”
― George Carlin, When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?
> The number of complainants can often be quite small. For centuries, theorists have worried about the potential of unrestrained democracy to lead to a tyranny of the majority, in which majority groups ride roughshod over the rights of minorities. What we often see today is instead a kind of tyranny of the minority: a system in which a particularly extreme and motivated fraction of the populace can wield outsized power in the face of a majority which is either too indifferent or too scared to oppose it.
I don't think there's actually any substantial pushback on the word "motherboard" either. That's not a real thing people are mad about. It seems like Google's AI is just not very good at judging what is considered inclusive or not.
That is just enabling some pretty bad actors in my opinion who don't even care about minorities. People that do care tend to be very flexible about language use.
Not being tolerant here is a pretty clear sign of close mindedness in reality or just a hint of lacking life experience.
Whitelist/blacklist was a hilarious one since it derives from the light/dark day/night separation found in pretty much every culture on the planet.
It's like, of _course_ early peoples created concepts from "day, when it's light" and "night, when it's dark". It has nothing to do with skin colour or ethnicity at all.
Funny. I remember graduating over 20 years ago. My first job out of University was on a construction site as a supervisory engineer. My direct manager, a crusty old guy, took me aside one day and explained to me the importance and necessity of applying the word "fuck" as part of my role. This was not a joke on his part. He had observed that I was a soft university educated well spoken book type. Nobody who I was supervising was going to take me seriously ever. I never actually applied his advice to the full extent but I did learn to toughen up somewhat .
"Fuck" and "badass" are relatively common in job postings in Utah. I assume it's because people from out of state are worried they'll join a company with a bunch of stiff Mormons so we need a signal to let them know that's not the case. Benefit #1 on the list is beer on Fridays.
Anyway, that's what scares me about this, I like language naturally evolving like it is in the above example, to address a specific communication need. I'm really not a fan of some remarkably privileged people using an insanely powerful company to coerce my language in whatever direction they see fit.
When I Google it, the first result is... your post, and none of the other results include the word.
Adding quotes to "badass" turns up (on the first page) a mechanics job posted in January, four hits for the same CNA job from over a month ago, and one hit for an administrative job, posted this month.
That doesn't seem like a lot of postings, certainly not enough to be considered an outlier.
Of course to verify that I'd have to do fifty Google searches and chart the data, which I don't really want to do...
I think you should, though, so next time you make such a dubious claim, you have the data to back it up. :)
If you don't use "fuck" in corporate communication, you're not doing it right. Use swears very sparingly (not in every email or presentation, for sure) and only deliberately for emphasis when you need a little shock. Especially effective when the leadup is really dry.
You're at Google. You need to do some kind of project that can be called a success -- within one quarter. What do you do?
One possibility, the disastrous effects of which we've seen, is to build Yet Another Incompatible Chat App.
This is another possibility. A very safe one, in a way.
You constantly have to demonstrate that you are "useful, self-directed, and doing important things", in an environment where usefulness and importance are extremely hard to judge, and so become very socially-constructed. It can get pretty brutal -- even if, when you step back and take the long view, it all seems ridiculous.
So when you look at what comes out of these companies, it's useful to remember that. Imagine the horrible games in which their employees have found themselves trapped.
(Money's a hell of a thing. Shame you seem to need so much of it.)
If it weren't for the "shadows of woke gestapo" as you call them, these things would never make it to prod because someone would "this ain't right" and when every PM is getting some amount of that feedback it would be heard. The fact that everyone working at Google is on the easy money train and doesn't want to upset that probably has a lot to do with people not speaking up as well.
Actually I've seen an English linter to help you maintain a passive voice for papers, remove waffle words and unnecessary fluff, etc. I'm not sure I can find the exact one I'm thinking of, but wasn't too bad overall, it spotted errors and made helpful suggestions. It was cool too, because it would read from stdin and integrated into vim pretty well with a few lines in my config.
I think it was made for publishing scientific research, and you could flag the options for what you wanted checked. If you were okay without the passive voice hints, you could still make whatever you were writing very direct and concise, or less wishy washy.
This is wrong. It's a good rule of thumb because passive voice can be a common indicator of weak writing, but it has plenty of good uses in strong writing. The best case to apply it is when the object of a sentence was previously a subject or other focus of prior sentences, and so is more familiar to the reader than the subject of the new sentence. For example:
"The United States had maintained neutrality until 1941. However, it was attacked at Pearl Harbor, and then chose to enter the war."
How and why is that possibly better than saying "the Japanese attacked them at Pearl Harbor"? The passive voice is what enables the omission of the actor.
This is disingenuous. Removing the bad actor in this sentence removed part of the cause for the effect. Not an attack happened, a japanese attack happened.
I you feel that the actor is an important part of the sentence, you can include it in passive voice as well: “However, it was attacked at Pearl Harbor by Japan, and then chose to enter the war.”
Where is the line drawn? MS Word suggests style corrections too, despite the meaning being totally understandable.
As an enterprise feature, enterprises would interested in this because they wouldn't want their employees communications to get them cancelled or put on woke twitter. Despite their writing style guide[1] being a bit too woke for my liking i'm sure some people find it a good reference, especially if they don't have capacity to create their own corporate guide.
While I don't doubt that an intent of this is to promote empathy, I would need to see some evidence before I could be open to the possibility that that is its effect. Anecdotally, these things seem to incense anger and hatred- I've never heard anyone say that being language-policed made them a better person, but I have seen people behave in a way that suggests the opposite. Personally, I become less empathic when someone assumes authority over what I say or write.
Serious question: in what way do you feel that Google suggesting alterations to the specific language used in the article (words like motherboard or fierce) is helping people be more empathetic?
I'm putting aside intentionally and just curious about how this actually encourages empathy?
Systematic and well entrenched problem require the first step of acknowledgement. If you do not even acknowledge there is a problem of empathy across the board today in our society then you are not even in the first step.
Nothing about this is about empathy. Not using language that white people at Google deemed offensive does little to help the actual problems. You know what would help?
Not hiring union-busting consultants to convince employees to not join a union against their best interests.
Neither hate or empathy are in words being written but in the intention behind them. If anything, corporate writing is all about feigning empathy while having none. Or do you actually believe that corporations care deeply about your privacy or all the other things they claim to do.
I don't understand what you are referring to when you say "this"; what is "this"? Are you referring to a specific statement by the parent poster, or something described in the OP?
I also don't understand whether the double-negative is intentional (and meant to cancel itself out, and become a positive), or if it is a colloquialism.
I do think there is more activism at play than you might. At a minimum it provides the fear mechanism that prevents employees from challenging the work, particularly if they aren't even on the project (why stick your neck out?).
However, the code format for prose analogy illuminates the writing quality angle brilliantly.
I'm sure I'm not alone in having distinct communication modes in work documents, each with their own reasons to be excluded from the ML dataset:
1. Keep it simple -- when achieved it is highly effective for communicating a work memo, but would be terribly dry if used in auto suggestions for an English major struggling through crafting moving prose.
2. Lazily verbose -- going long is more expedient than crafting a compact message. It's mostly unrefined garbage. (exhibit a this comment)
3. Everything is awesome (positivity inflation) -- a deluge of great, love, awesome, wonderful, perfect, etc. all applied to far too many things, far too often.
Imagine if an ML code formatter included psudeo code inputs, or was given a data set of every local file change
(pre-commit) instead of what is sitting in a main branch? My Docs are filled with things that I'd never commit much less pass a code review.
If Google Docs was only used in corporate settings, and we wanted to double down on our drab corporate communication styles, I guess the feature would make some sense.
Microsoft is in the process of rolling 'inclusive' checking out, in (at least) the web version of Outlook 365. You can see by clicking the gear icon (in top right) -> View all Outlook settings (at bottom) -> Compose and reply -> Microsoft Editor settings (bottom). It is 'very broken'.
One of the reasons I left google is that their "content moderation team" (the folks who make you take down wrongthink memes) is so far out of touch, that somebody had to explain to them there are people in the world who are discriminated against, but aren't black. They simply didn't know that was the case! And if that's the people who are moderating content...
I said motherboard all the time in meetings and chats, never had any pushback. TBH if I did get pushback on that one, I'd bring it to HR and say the pushback was affecting my ability to get work down.
Put yourself in the shoes of your average content moderator. Aren't they there for the paycheck like most people at their jobs? Why does everyone assume these people are first and foremost bastions of acceptable behaviour? They are instructed by executives as to how to do their jobs. Now executives are learning nuance and say "oh there's more to this than you thought, so here's the updated guidelines to follow now", to shift blame for this broken system to the moderators when all along they were following orders from above.
No, those folks are not there just to get a paycheck. They are evangelists for a viewpoint who use their moderation powers to eliminate thoughts they don't like.
And yes, those teams really did come up with their determinations of what was OK and what wasn't, based on their own beliefs. That made that quite clear in their repeated, stupid posts on memegen.
Are other cases of online abuse, workplace harassment, discrimination, etc. so rare that people are actually chasing problems like this for a paycheck? It would be wonderful if that was the case, but I doubt that it is.
I think the point you're missing is that often moderators are in that position because they specifically want the power that comes with it. We see this all the time with volunteer moderators getting high on their power, pushing through whatever agenda they have regardless of user opinion.
I think those types of people are even more likely to end up as paid content moderators, since the work tends to be too tedious for most average people to deal with.
» I think the point you're missing is that often moderators are in that position because they specifically want the power that comes with it.
I love that you were courageous enough to say this because this is completely true and also why we say #ACAB. Most people who want to be police officers are absolutely unfit to be police officers!
I hadn't actually thought about applying that reasoning to the police and while there is a higher bar to becoming a police officer, I do have to agree with the overall idea.
There probably isn't any job which is an exception to this, politicians are similarly mainly people who want the associated influence and even engineers become engineers so they have control over engineering. It's just that the incentives are more perverse with politicians, police and moderators than with engineers.
Once the pool for some jobs gets large enough, the self selection of those who apply for it can become a problem.
From what I understand from rumors in the area, is those who couldn't become police (for whatever reason) would then go apply at the prison, and those who couldn't get a job there (and it appears they take anyone with a pulse) would go work for TSA.
Perhaps the "public servant" idea should be taken to a larger extreme, and some positions picked by lottery instead.
Many people willingly do things like this voluntarily at their jobs to the point that the job they were hired for seems like a second priority for them.
so far out of touch, that somebody had to explain to them there are people in the world who are discriminated against, but aren't black.
Sounds preposterous, but is not. I had a boss around 2000 who believed wholeheartedly that people brought from Africa to the United States were the only slaves that ever existed in history anywhere on Earth.
This came up because someone noted in passing conversation that an anniversary was coming up related to the Atlantic slave trade in the 1600's, and my boss insisted that there couldn't have been slavery before 1776, because slavery was started by the United States.
I walked out of the break room early in the conversation and decided to let the others handle it. She was my boss, and I would have gotten fired for contradicting her.
Not only that, but there are more than three times as many slaves TODAY as ever were in the transatlantic slave trade that is the only one the US knows exists.
I may missing something but it seems plain enough in the thirteenth amendment? “ Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
To this point, if US prison labor isn't "slavery" or "involuntary servitude", then removing the words between "except" and "shall" would be noncontroversial.
Similarly, if there was political consensus that US companies shouldn't own or hire slaves overseas, then the bit starting with "within" would be easy to remove as well.
None of this has had any chance of happening since the thirteenth amendment was passed (not even during BLM). It's pretty clear that a big chunk of the US's leaders are pro-slavery.
Because worrs carry not only direct meanings, but subjective connotations, and most people consider slavery an unjust subjugation of another human being, and think it is immoral by definition, in any circumstances. On the other hand, even most of the people who aren't fans of US prison system still consider the general idea of prison to be just, as the general idea of prison labour as a way to repay society.
From my understanding, the main punishment for not working as prison labor is losing the small wages you do get (i.e, normally one of the punishments for misbehavior is prohibiting you from working).
Idk how this works in the US in particular - but I suppose that - essentially - yes. Harsher conditions.
When one has a essentially complete control over another person's life, there are ways to make this life hell, even while staying within the legal bounds.
For one, most people don't equate indentured servitude with slavery. We generally think of lifelong service when we say slavery, which isn't part of the penal system. The penal system also isn't generational and people aren't born into slavery. There's grounds to call it slavery, yes, but the context you're bringing it up in is in comparison to the African slave trade and you're diminishing the suffering those people went through by saying that what happened to them was just like what we do to prisoners today. What happened to them was much worse.
It's really undermining the atrocities of the transatlantic slave trade by comparing it to prison. We wouldn't compare it to indentured servitude, which is much closer to the penal system (monetary debt vs social debt, but both are contacts even if not purely voluntary). The federal government also doesn't have complete ownership over prisoners. Yes, prisoners are mistreated, but what they face isn't at the level of those from the slave trade and so you're effectively diminishing those atrocities.
Wow, lots of replies are trying to downplay the existence ongoing human suffering.
A few things to consider:
- A disproportionate number of prisoners are African American, and that subset are mostly in prison for crimes that whites simply don't go to prison for (e.g., pot, or coke vs. crack).
- US prisoners aren't given nutritionally adequate food for free. They have to buy that at inflated prices from the prison. Once they blow through any savings, their only option (other than malnutrition) is to work for wages that would be illegally low outside of prison.
- As during the transatlantic trade, it is straightforward to buy your way out of forced prison labor.
- A growing fraction of prisoners consider the current system to be eugenics as well as slavery. The prisons take the majority of men while they are at prime child rearing age. It's well known that any that do manage to have kids will probably be forced into a situation where they can't adequately care for those children (dad goes to prison for driving while black or whatever), making the next generation easy targets for the same scheme. (This is coming from current prisoners, not me.)
The other pushback against my comment boils down to "it's legal, so we don't use that word". Similar arguments were made in defense of the transatlantic trade. For instance, black Africans were generally the ones selling slaves, and often used real or imagined criminal records as an excuse. Any objective comparison of the two systems would find that the transatlantic slave trade was roughly as immoral California's three strike law is in practice. You could argue the slave trade was worse because the kids were automatically slaves. In the current system, they're only probably going to prison, but the prisons also aren't paying to raise them.
I suggest reading Things Fall Apart if you're unfamiliar with the African side of the slave trade.
That feels like a very misleading point. The world population is almost 8 billion, it was almost 1 billion in 1800 (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population), so we decreased slavery as a precentage of the world by a lot, yet the total number of slaves has increased. It's tragic that there is modern slavery, but it was horrible the us did it, it's horrible that people want to minimize and argue we weren't so bad for having it, that the founding father's of the us were mostly slave owners.
> That feels like a very misleading point. The world population is almost 8 billion, it was almost 1 billion in 1800 [...] we decreased slavery as a precentage of the world by a lot
I appreciate what you're saying, but my point is actually that the US view is that "slavery has been abolished for 150 years" makes for a very US-centric view of history. Which for a 250 year old country is laughably closed minded both backwards and forwards in time.
The context of what I said is the parent comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31124042), specifically related to the US-centricism of the retold statement of "slavery was started by the United States".
The story of the world is not that slavery was created for the process of building the US as a powerful nation, and then abolished and now only dealing with the fallout and reparations. But I've heard this understanding many times in the US, to the point where it seems like the mainstream understanding there.
> I said motherboard all the time in meetings and chats, never had any pushback. TBH if I did get pushback on that one, I'd bring it to HR and say the pushback was affecting my ability to get work down.
I would have edited the manifesto to focus on at most one-two points based mainly around the dopey stuff they were doing in DEI classes at the time, Drop all the big-five psychology stuff, and eliminate nearly all the biological claims about women's different ability and interests.
The easiest way to not be Damore'd is to apologize and repent. Damore doubled down and at that point (because the gap between "manager" and "employee" at Google is so narrow) became a walking Title VII violation. Once his coworkers came out in public saying they wouldn't be able to work with him, Google was backed (legally and PR-wise) completely into a corner.
It turns out American companies are not the Athenian Lyceum, and some topics are not up for debate.
> The easiest way to not be Damore'd is to apologize and repent.
What? Absolutely not. That is terrible advice when it comes to something that couldn't have been a literal accident. If he'd used the word "mother", then sure-- that could be apologized for. But a protracted essay on population level statistical differences between genders and its impact on the employment pool? Not a chance.
There is so much noise and outright disinformation about any issue that often the only reliable source for wrong doing is when the target of an accusation admits it themselves.
And even when that fails to protect you, at least you can be a hero to someone. Do you think a damore that apologized and said he was mistaken would be more employable? That people would eventually see it as a youthful transgression? I doubt it greatly-- it's not like the screens that show up when you google his name will yellow with age. Instead he'd just be the enemy to both factions of the war he wandered into, rather than enemy of one and hero to the other.
> There is so much noise and outright disinformation about any issue that often the only reliable source for wrong doing is when the target of an accusation admits it themselves.
Sometimes, but doesn't apply here; the entire kerfluffle happened on an internal-public message-board. There was a paper-trail a mile long.
> Do you think a damore that apologized and said he was mistaken would be more employable?
Absolutely. Google management was very willing to give him a second chance. His mistake was basically tactless following of the existing corporate culture of internal openness, and they recognized that. Unfortunately, he did basically everything in his power to make retaining him as unpalatable as possible, claiming repeatedly the science was on his side and people shouldn't be afraid to debate science. Like I said: walking Title VII violation. You can debate the science all you want, but not as an employee in an American corporation that also has project authority.
In essence, he dared Google to either go up against the Civil Rights Act or admit they were hypocritical about their internal culture. They resolved the issue by removing the irritant (and the corporate culture took a hit too, as people realized in general that a liberal interpretation of it was incompatible with the Civil Rights Act. You can't just say whatever internally).
Compare with Facebook still employing the guy who did an A/B test on whether emotional tone of stories make people sad. Once he realized why that was a problem, he owned up to it and is still doing research at Facebook.
> rather than enemy of one and hero to the other.
Meh. Check his Twitter these days and he's not really their hero; the Right lost interest in him when the labor relations board ruled his firing was legal (they don't want to make a headlong run into the Civil Rights Act either... it protects most voters, so it's very popular).
... and besides, sometimes being hero to none is the most dignified course of action. I can name several historical figures who made the choice to join a faction as a hero at the mere cost of spending their finite lives serving actual evil.
Thanks for the insight! My perspective was colored by thinking about it exclusively after it had blown up in the media. I see how it could have been very different when it was still potentially just an internal debate about internal communication culture.
One of the challenges with moderation teams like that or similar is that the folks who REALLY want to do that job .. are the folks who absolutely should NOT be doing it.
This is I think a major issue. The passionate people on these committees have views that are perhaps in the 10% edge of spectrum. No mothers, birthing persons etc etc.
One thing that keeps me in check is that, I assume, the feeling is mutual. I'm guessing that in both camps there are people who have trouble believing that the other side is arguing/acting in good faith, because their position is so obviously ludicrous.
For anyone reading this, I volunteer. My moderation level would be based on words that were considered bad in the year 2005. I won’t have to do much work and you still get to say that you have someone that’s doing the job. Win-win.
The difference is that I live in the middle of the country, so I'm basically living in the past but can see the future screaming my way via the internet.
I wonder what your age is in comparison to your chosen ideal of 2005. As I am getting older it is easier to see the patterns in all this. Most people just want the entire world frozen from the time they were young. That includes everything from the cast of SNL to acceptable language. I have seen enough decades of people complaining about policing language to know that we survived multiple waves of this before 2005 and we will survive all the waves that came and will come after. I would bet that 20 years from now, Gen Z will be waxing nostalgic about the language of today while Gen Alpha and beyond will be pushing for more change. It is just the way language evolves.
I dunno, man. You're right that the term "mainboard" isn't going to kill us, and I wouldn't advise anyone to make this their main crusade in life. But that's a pretty high standard of dismissiveness and I've never seen anyone apply it to language changes that genuinely bug them. If we discovered that Google employees call codebases which have a lot of bugs "gay", and people got angry about it, would you tell them that it's not a big deal because Google has just developed the language a bit?
>But that's a pretty high standard of dismissiveness and I've never seen anyone apply it to language changes that genuinely bug them.
I am applying that dismissiveness to all objections equally based off their motivation. I don't agree with the argument on either side of the "motherboard/mainboard" debate. But I can emphasize with the motivation of the side pushing for "mainboard" because it is the same as your argument about misusing "gay" being unnaceptable. I disagree with their specific objection but I understand the motivation. I don't understand the side pushing for "motherboard" because the heart of the objection seems to be "things were better when I was young". Presented with those two options, why not side with the people who you would side with if we were arguing over a different word such as "gay"?
It's true that things were different when we were young, but that's true of any new phenomenon and it's not the heart of the objection. If young people these days want to avoid saying "wonderful", or use women by default in hypothetical scenarios, or go around checking their pulse while they say "sheeeeesh", I have no real concerns about those things and I think most people on team "motherboard" would agree.
The reason I push against "mainboard" is, I think, the analogous concern. While it's possible in principle to type out the letters "mainboard" without meaning anything by it, in practice the people who say it are motivated by a package of ideas about gender which I think are bad and would be harmful for society if they were more broadly adopted. To say "mainboard" would make me appear to be endorsing those ideas.
>in practice the people who say it are motivated by a package of ideas about gender which I think are bad and would be harmful for society if they were more broadly adopted
I would argue this is a symptom of the same phenomenon and therefore the heart of the objection is still the same.
Is it possible in your view for any new trend to be bad and worth fighting against? It's hard for me to see how this doesn't reduce to a content-free "nothing really matters" objection.
Sure, if there is any evidence behind the objection I can support it. When the objection is some vague claim about it being "harmful for society" without anything to back that up, I will call BS.
I'm 33, but the reason I chose 2005 was because it was the latest year that I was sure was before "wokeness" was a thing.
I also live in the rural Midwest, so I figured that was about how far in the past you on the coast think we are with this sort of thing - and you'd be right, to an extent.
Which means you were 17 in 2005 which fits my theory perfectly. "Wokeness" might not be a term that existed in 2005, but like I said, there were multiple waves of the same ideal going back before 2005. Maybe you should examine why you are ok with the "political correctness" wave of the 90s and not the "wokeness" wave of the last decade plus. Is it potentially because you didn't see the earlier waves in real-time as a mature adult?
> that somebody had to explain to them there are people in the world who are discriminated against, but aren't black
I wouldn't have believed you that there are people like this, but a few minutes after i read your comment, i saw replies (requires showdead) to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31123102 that said men cannot be discrimated against...
> somebody had to explain to them there are people in the world who are discriminated against, but aren't black.
As a Russian, this is amusing to read. For me and most people I know, when you meet a black person, it's totally normal to ask them "where are you from" because they can't possibly be local. Our society just doesn't have the concept of racism it seems because of the exceeding rarity of people who aren't European or Asian.
People in Russia are often discriminated against based on their sexual orientation, political views, and nationality though.
Either way, people here aren't discriminated based on their race. Never were. This particular problem seems to be uniquely American because of their history.
We do have a word for racism by the way. It's, unsurprisingly, "расизм".
America certainly takes racism to extremes, but it's not a problem unique to the US - racism is a thing all over Europe and Asia too, to varying degrees.
I've never been to Russia, but I'm finding it hard to believe racism doesn't exist there.
having lived in Russia, I assure you there's a lot of pretty open racism there, racist slurs are openly and widely used for anyone who's not a slav, and even some slavs now as well (e.g. Ukrainians)
> Either way, people here aren't discriminated based on their race. Never were. This particular problem seems to be uniquely American because of their history.
I suspect you are overlooking some pretty pervasive discrimination against minority groups because you have become accustomed to it, and/or because you aren't personally affected by it. While racism in Russia appears to have been improving over the last decade or so, it is hardly absent.
As a Russian, I confirm racism is rampant in the country. I don't know if it is even waning anymore, considering the increasingly strong orthodox church and bigotry as indicated by the ongoing war and popularity of the regime that started it.
Anyone who thinks otherwise: go out and talk to ethnically Asian people more. (For an outsider, keep in mind that anywhere in Russian Siberia there are very large indigenous Asian populations in proportion to total.)
My Asian friends are routinely discriminated against purely based on their appearance: subject to searches at subway entrances, subject to disdainful attitude by government officials, salespeople and other citizens. They will have trouble renting flats, etc.
This is significantly worse in western parts of Russia (where you can be targeted by gangs and skinheads), but is still present in their part of the country.
And it is those who were lucky to have gone to good schools and speak perfect Russian. Things are dimmer for someone who has a stronger accent.
Most of my Asian friends never talk about it, but one did, after which I started making observations and reevaluating past ones and recognized that it is very much true.
Those of middle eastern ethnicities (often immigrants and their descendants) have likely even harder time.
> As a Russian, I confirm racism is rampant in the country. I don't know if it is even waning anymore...
Yeah, I had my doubts too. The Wikipedia article claims that racist attacks have been on the decline, and supports that claim with some statistics from the SOVA Center. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if that were simply because those attacks have become so commonplace that they aren't reported at all, or that reports are being actively suppressed.
Racism is a problem in large parts of Europe, and generally any country with a history involving enslaved Africans. I wouldn't be surprised if ethnic discrimination in Russia went a different direction though, since their colonization all happened in central Asia, where skin color isn't all that informative.
(Not a historian, so fully expect half of this to be wrong in one way or another.)
> Either way, people here aren't discriminated based on their race. Never were.
That is untrue.
You could argue the “pale of settlement” (instituted shortly after the annexation of parts of Poland made Jews more than a rounding error) was discrimination based on religion, not ancestry (and indeed it seems to have had some resemblance to the suppression of Old Rite communities, which did not have any particular ethnic composition as far as I know). But the distance between the two is easily bridged (one only needs to look at Ireland to see that), and by the 20th century it was, thoroughly, as evidenced by things ranging from Stalin’s Jewish resettlement attempts in the 30s and 40s (whence the “Jewish autonomous region”) to the ethnic quotas and heavily biased exams at the Mekhmat and elsewhere in the 70s and 80s (supported not only by a mass of mostly-forgotten university functionaries, but also by some of the genuine greats such as Pontrjagin, cf You Failed Your Math Test, Comrade Einstein).
(That last part is why any intentional bias or quota in admissions gives me the chills. Nothing will go wrong, surely.)
It’s not only the Jews, of course. The common euphemistic appellation for the situation on the Caucasus, “tensions”, hides a morass of mutual hatreds that is centuries deep, though again the results of Stalin’s disastrous resettlement efforts are best characterized as “fallout”, and the two Chechen wars intended as election publicity for Putin did not help. But a close look at the 19th-century colonization of the region as described indirectly by authors like Lermontov gives the impression that the whole thing was pretty fucked up even then.
(If you want to dismiss these places as “not really Russia”, you are proving my point, even if there are senses in which that statement is true.)
Shall we talk about the undocumented and (thus) vastly underpaid Middle Eastern migrant workers who have sustained most of Moscow’s municipal infrastructure for the last two decades? (Though perhaps not for much longer, given the recent monetary restrictions.) Who have reversed much of its despair- and alcohol-fueled collapse of the late Soviet times? That the low-wage jobs should go to them may not be not explicitly xenophobic (except inasmuch as any system of employment controls for foreigners is), just the result of the how the USSR was organized and how it fell apart; but I have an acquaintance who has adopted a child from there, and their experiences both with officials and with strangers off-handedly insulting the child or the family sound pretty straightforwardly racist to me.
And, well, let us be honest and acknowledge the mutual feeling of otherness between people from Central or Northern Russia and those from West Ukraine, Belarus, or even the south of the country as it currently is. It can range from having a stereotypical funny-talking character in jokes to toppling monuments, rewriting history, and going to war, but it’s been there for a long time, and the distance between these two extremes isn’t nearly as large as I’d like.
(Navalnyj has distant relatives in Ukraine? Everybody has distant relatives in Ukraine. If you want commentary on the Golodomor and whether it fits here, though, you’ll need to find someone qualified enough to talk specifics about it.)
This is not at all an exhaustive list. (What about the Tatars? The Russian Germans? The postwar expulsions, tacitly accepted by the West, that turned Königsberg into Kaliningrad and Danzig into Gdańsk? I’m sure there are things I’ve never heard of as well.) It might be that there is no “racism” in the precise North American mold in Russia or around it, but that is only because that mold is uninteresting (and to the extent that the opposition to it is built around its incidental features, that opposition is missing the point, although I would not claim to be the one...
While I'm sure the shape of discrimination in your culture is different and not heavily racial, it's unwise to conclude that racial discrimination isn't happening just because you don't see the textbook version of it in front of you. The assumption that a black person can't possibly be local can lead some people to act in a discriminatory way that would produce bad outcomes.
A good example would be some of the pieces out there about what it's like to live in Japan as a black person, like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMpxLmMnS6M - their society is definitely not going to racially discriminate like the US does, but that doesn't mean you won't experience any discrimination or unusual treatment due to your skin color being different.
Also, if people get discriminated against based on their nationality and you just said a black person can't possibly be From Here... it seems like if you combine those two statements that would mean black people would naturally get discriminated against since they're foreigners?
> Also, if people get discriminated against based on their nationality and you just said a black person can't possibly be From Here...
The nationality thing is more about those who work customer-facing jobs here. Like, you call a taxi, it arrives but you can't find where. You call the driver to ask where they stopped, but the driver is from Tajikistan or Uzbekistan and barely speaks any Russian. It is frustrating when you can't use your native language in your home country for something as mundane as asking the taxi driver where they are. Besides, they usually do their jobs much more shoddily, get paid less, and have lower standards. So, yes, these people have this kind of reputation, but every rule has its exceptions.
But then if someone is a foreign student for example, they are never treated like that. So I guess this discrimination is not against the nationality per se, but against people bringing their customs into someone else's society and refusing to blend in?
It's exceedingly unlikely, as historically there's no resident population with African descent and migration was very limited; a black person could have been born and raised in a Russian city, but that would be a rare occurrence as those people are far outnumbered by tourists or temporary students from Africa; and this would also depend on the city - Moscow is a bit more international where e.g. Patrice Lumumba University teaching elites from USSR-friendly African states, however for most regional cities with million+ people there were literally 0 people with African descent when the Iron Curtain fell, so obviously any current adult black person could not have been born and raised there.
> Our society just doesn't have the concept of racism
I'd say "racism" those days is a fairly weird word that I've seen infrequently applied as an umbrella term covering many different things.
It's almost certainly true that there is virtually no "classical" (black vs white) racism there. Russia never had any significant fraction of black population, and the flavors of slavery were quite different from the US. When Russian sees a black person, while their inner voice would surely say "this person is an alien", there's most likely would be no immediate derogatory prejudice involved - because to best of my awareness it was never instilled, at least not in the Soviet and post-Soviet mindspace.
But in Russia there surely is something similar, just of a different flavor - again, because of different history and societal composition. Say, doubtlessly there are tons of prejudices based on ethnicity - just remember how many derogatory names and jokes are there (and always were) for neighboring nations such as Ukrainians (this is so fucked up!), Georgians, Tajiks or Uzbeks; or Russian ethniticies - especially Chechens (this nationality is pretty touchy conversation subject).
Sorry but did you just say one of the reasons you left google was the memegen moderation team? I can't imagine that being a legitimate worry that would impact my employment decisions.
It seems there's a group of people who are too far in the other direction too. When I heard that it's preferred to say "allowlist" instead of "whitelist", do you know what my reaction was?
"Sure, whatever."
And I moved on with my life. It has zero impact on my day to day. The pushback reminds me of people who deadname others on purpose. Like, who cares? Bob wants to be called Sally now? Sure, whatever.
I find this a very reasonable approach. I also find it natural that language evolves and sometimes it can even be marginally beneficial to artificially guide the evolution. All in all, in practice it just doesn't matter in my life.
You're right. I use the new terms and move on. It's really not that bad.
However it tends to become a password game. There's a new password every few months. If you know the new password, you get to feel above those who don't. It's as we invent new crimes to charge people with.
If no one calls it out (because sure, whatever), it keeps ratcheting up. Then banal conversations turn into minefields. What you say gets invalidated because you used the wrong password.
> What you say gets invalidated because you used the wrong password.
This entire discourse is so full of straw men it's hard to believe you have actually had real conversations with these people.
There is so much effort during these conversations toward "calling in" vs "calling out" that I am very confused how a conversation could ever get to the point you describe. You'd have to be really callous, and completely unwilling to meet your conversation partner on an even field, to elicit such reactions.
And no, Twitter pile-ons don't count as evidence for your argument -- Twitter is very, very far from an accurate cross-section of "real life".
Yeah, I’m the same way - also a googler, I used the term “grandfathered” in a meeting with a bunch of people and someone on Meet chat corrected me to “legacy” or something, and I said, “oh, okay, no problem” and corrected myself and moved on.
So - I used a word that someone didn’t like, they corrected me, I adjusted without deep apology and moved on, and everything was fine. Who cares? Why is this such a huge issue, language evolves all the time.
My suspicion is - of people who run into problems with language at tech companies, half of the problem is due to their reaction to being corrected.
Starting when I was a kid, I used the expression “gypped” without concern or awareness, and then at some point someone maybe in high school or college took me aside and explained that it was based on a stereotype. I was nonplussed for a minute, and then I moved on. And I just don’t say that anymore. I don’t feel bad about having said it in the past, I don’t have any deep guilt, I just…got on with my life.
So I guess the password is “don’t use a colloquialism based on an ethnic stereotype “, and that seems pretty straightforward and reasonable.
Similar thing happened to me- I used the term "biner" to refer to a carabiner, but was told that it was an insult used to refer to hispanics who collected beans in the central valley of california. At the time, I was in Connecicut. I've also had people tell me I can't call a particular card suite a "spade".
I mean - it feels like you’re creating a combative situation where one does not exist. “And just who are you?” - what is the point of that? To what end and whose benefit?
As the person who experienced this particular moment, I can assure you there was nothing combative about it. It was a one off comment, a one off response, everyone moved on.
Is every disagreement you experience combative? Every correction? I tell you, I had a catch-up yesterday with a former team member that turned to the subject of web3, and that friendly debate was approximately 50x more combative as the moment I described.
That isn't language evolving, that's you being arbitrarily 'punished' for no better reason than to reinforce the false idea that the other person is better than you. The right response is to refuse because that treadmill is endless and its potential speed is unlimited.
You were being "corrected" by someone else, weren't you? They knew the "right" language and you didn't. What do you think would have happened if you'd disagreed with this particular correction?
Like if I had said, “thanks for the feedback but I’m going to continue using this other word”? I think we probably would have just moved on and the individual would have been offended, but - why would I do that? To whose benefit? Mine?
Because, look, I’m a successful, senior, valued individual who is respected and liked by my team. In the grand scheme of my life, if someone wants me to use one word vs another, why do I care? I have thousands of things that are more important to worry about than that.
It’s the same way that I work with someone who likes to be addressed in emails by their full name - okay, no problem, remind me once and I’ll just move on. Or a coworker I had who was from Africa and did not want to be referred to as “African American” - sure, fine.
Doing so diminishes me not at all, because I don’t define my worth based on whether I use the correct (or incorrect) word or not.
It seems like a lot of the objections that I see in this thread have to do with people having issues being “corrected” or “policed” or “silenced”, all of which have to do with how they interpret how those moments have wronged THEM. Another option would be to let it go. Yet another would be to see themselves as making the faintest possible effort to make sure people feel welcome.
I think we probably would have just moved on and the individual would have been offended
That's the gap between you and others in this thread. What we've experienced is not that one individual is genuinely offended and everyone just moves on, it's that they immediately run the HR/management with crocodile tears in their eyes, and then demand you be fired. They conclude that the only reason to refuse their request is because you're an ideological enemy and don't care about anything else.
And that's why it's bad. It's not about genuinely taking offence, and never was. It is about establishing dominance over powerful institutions so they can turn them all into Twitter - weapons in a never-ending dystopian culture war that can never be won because the victory conditions change every day.
The terms 'guestlist' and 'shitlist' would perhaps be more accurate in terms of what those two forms of security access control are really about. Using a guestlist to control access is more secure (as you can background check everyone on the guestlist), but limits traffic; conversely allowing anyone in except those known troublemakers on the shitlist gets more traffic but means undesirables might slip in and become nuisances.
On the other hand, all that nonsense about 'master' was ridiculous. Master's degrees, the master boot record, come on let that one go.
This AI strikes me as being so dystopian. Time to break out and read Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four again.
A true AI would respond to user behavior and back off or change accordingly. Reminds me of Google News which keeps inserting articles about Kardashians no matter how often I tell it to "include fewer of these stories". For all the hype of Google's advanced AI, instead we get faceless, imperious NannyTech.
is it even AI? They claim it's a language model analysing human bias but it's blindingly obvious that it is just a human curated blacklist.
Maybe they're using a language model for part of speech tagging or to suggest alternative words with similar meaning but there's no way an AI decided that "motherboard" is taboo.
Yes an AI in this case would be more intelligent than whichever human designed this feature. Google is actually a pioneer in the space of AI comment toxicity filters.
Even a toy solution would be smarter, you could compare the TF-IDF of each word in different populations (woke, average, toxic) to identify non-woke language, if that was the intention - not saying it’s right.
This is clearly just someone who ran a regex over a dictionary and didn’t check the output of their script for scunthorpes such as “motherboard”. It’s so low tech for Google, 1990s technology.
Trying to flatten everything into synonyms is the same reason Google search has gone downhill. Now they’re bringing that same feature nobody asked for into Google docs. Language is too complex for any algorithm to “understand”
This is an article nearly entirely built around a viral Tweet regarding "landlord" cause Vice writers live in a strange world where that is essentially a slur they want to use, and then found two edge cases to make it an "article".
It's not a slur, it's just distinguishing people between those that own property and those that don't. As such, it's offensive to large swathes of disadvantaged people.
I can't even begin to follow this line of thought. Is 'billionaire' offensive because it distinguishes those who own billions of dollars versus those who don't? How, by your logic, is 'property owner' not offensive?
"People who own property" and "people who don't own property" are very real and in many cases important groups to discuss. If the fact that I'm a property owner (not a landlord though) offends someone who isn't, well... tough. The correct response would be to tell these people to stop being so soft and getting offended over absolutely nothing.
I object to "articles" that are essentially just popular tweets puffed up. Don't think that is good journalism and don't think it needs much more detail.
I mean, I'm confused why you think the vice authors live in a world where landlord is a slur. It's not. It's a commonly used term and a small number of progressive individuals have manipulated the media and their followers into thinking it's terrible. But it isn't. Hence, my request as to why you think the Vice authors "wanted to use a slur", since it isn't.
Cause I have worked in NYC media and know that Vice writers use "landlord" as an insult?
The impetus for this piece was someone wrote a tweet that got very popular implying Google is somehow trying to cover for "landlords" by calling them "property owners". Vice writers are upset about that and would prefer to use "landlord" cause in their culture it has a negative connotation.
1a : an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo
And to the point, in NYC media circles, it is nearly the equivalent of an actual slur which is why I called it that. Just one writers want to use as opposed to one they think it is inappropriate to use.
I dislike this proposed feature as much as the next person, but it's worth noting that the main complaint of this article is fairly unique: they work on a channel called Motherboard, and this feature is going to cause the name of their channel to be considered a problem. Most people won't experience that specific error case. It's valid, and points to the kinds of unforeseen consequences you run into when trying to manage speech in this way, but it's not by itself a smoking gun for most people.
and as we can see, large numbers of people- there are hundreds of us- think that the name of that channel to be highly offensive. Actually, no, wait, nobody actually finds it offensive.
This is literally Brave New World stuff. Not exaggerating, the word mother was hugely offensive to the people in that book. Unfortunately we don’t even get the Orgy Porgy parts. It’s like the worst parts of 1984 and Brave New World mixed together.
I think this article hints at an important thing though which is that language is contextual. Even if we think that we should describe mothers as birthing persons or fathers as non-birthing parents in the general context, I should be allowed to refer to myself as a father. People of color can re-claim slurs, which a correction to could probably feel paternalistic. There are lots of contexts where certain language is ok, depending on the speaker or the audience. And I guess it means you're not supposed to use google docs for any kind of emotional writing, as it tries to correct "annoyed" or the f word. That and there is this beauty:
> A transcribed interview of neo-Nazi and former Klan leader David Duke—in which he uses the N-word and talks about hunting Black people—gets no notes. Radical feminist Valerie Solanas’ SCUM Manifesto gets more edits than Duke’s tirade; she should use “police officers” instead of “policemen,”
> Even if we think that we should describe mothers as birthing persons
Mother definitely does not mean birthing person. The easiest example is adoption.
Would would you call the mother in that case? Adoptive Female Parent goes again against the 'rule' because it has female in there. Parent 1/Parent 2? no it has Hierarchy.
A female parent is a mother. That's what their children call them, not "parent", with allowances for foster children and older adopted kids calling them by their first name.
I don't think calling a parent 'mother' is something children do by themselves. They call them however they end up calling them, or whatever their parents teach them. Also certainly not 'mother', rather 'mum', 'mom'... and the Turkish children say anne.
Ok, but it makes no sense in the first place? “Motherboard” has long been a technical computer term, that even somebody with a passive interest in computers would understand. You would have to make an effort to be offended by it in some way.
I fail to understand what’s going on these days. Words change their meaning over decades. A small minority seem hellbent on kicking up a storm to change popular usage, where no offense or other meaning is implied in general modern usage.
Considering the word “mother” - a concept that is about as universally understood across the whole of humanity as it is possible for a concept to be - “problematic“ is itself a sign that this movement has gone off the deep end.
It doesn't even make sense that an AI model trained on normal writing samples would flag that as problematic, since it is not considered so by the vast majority of people. Unless the model was trained exclusively on the most extreme Tumblr posts, it suggests that fringe Google employees are injecting their personal ideology into the products.
The vast, vast majority of people do not want their mothers erased from the language.
I've been privy to people trying to ban words like "whitelabel" at my company. Thankfully, management & executives at my company never stood for that BS so I still get to use whitelist & blacklist in documentation, and don't worry about those non-issues get in the way of me actually doing work.
Google might be too far gone, and working with those people would be so exhausting that it's actually stopped me from applying (James Damore)
There are companies that don't stand for that sort of stuff. And top paying ones too (pay better than Goog). Coinbase is one of them, and I don't want to mention mine to avoid dox. And go check blind, you'll find the vast majority of people don't stand for this BS either, and that they're just silenced.
My advice? Hit them where it hurts & vote with your feet. Google's not the top payer anymore, so just leave.
>"My advice? Hit them where it hurts & vote with your feet. Google's not the top payer anymore, so just leave. "
In principle I agree but I feel like level headed folks choosing to leave only makes the echo chamber even worse. And sadly, I don't think Google as a company will suffer much of a downside because they're so big.
I unfortunately have a mortgage and can't live with the stress of the fear of being fired for some esoteric internet community I've joined. I've heard through the grapevines of people starting slack mob witch hunts over people who've used terms like "Fren" because of its very slight relationship with 4chan.
I like the security of not working with unchecked witch hunts . I don't want to be Damore'd because of words I use outside of work.
Hahaha yeah, sometimes I wonder how quickly I'd get fired if I didn't have mouths to feed. I'd probably be somewhere in Miami living in a hacker warehouse working on my 5th failed crypto project, consuming an assortment of drugs.
Instead, it's the white picket fence, steady income and BBQs for me
I've been publishing writing far outside consensus progressive attitudes since the pandemic began with zero issue so far. Don't make your workplace your audience or invite controversy around your workplace and you're very unlikely to have a problem.
This may seem as bad in short term, but it's good in the long run.
As the share of ideologically-driven people rises, capacity to solve problems and create valuable stuff decreases. The organization will die inevitably.
"Black Label" has positive connotations. So it feels like an effort to find anything with "white" where there might be a positive connotation. And anything "black" where there might be a negative connotation. And to remove all that matches, regardless of why the specific connotation exists, why it exists, whether it's related to race in any way, etc.
I suppose that's easier than trying to debate every occurrence.
Silly question: ignoring any kind of history, why fight for terms like "whitelist" and "blacklist" when terms like "allowlist" and "blocklist" are objectively clearer, especially for folks who's first language is not English?
I don't mind those words, and I don't really fight for them. I use the words I use out of habit. I just think that the mismatch in effort/spun cycles on those terms by the routine vocal minority is a testament to how detached to reality these people are
The things that worry me are the witch hunts started by the same group of people. See my other comment on "fren"
Your question takes for granted that people are fighting for whitelist in blacklist, but it's the opposite. Whitelist and blacklist are long-established and familiar terms.
Teach someone with no previous cultural knowledge what "allow" and "deny" means, then ask them what white list and black list means, then ask them what allow list and deny list means.
Black and white list requires previous knowledge of what those terms mean, allow and deny do not. Someone can intuit from just basic language knowledge what the feature does.
My pet peeve is that the new, inclusive terms are often more cumbersome. For example, allowlist is longer by a syllable. I know that it's hard, but I wish that people came up with terms that are just as handy as the old ones. Changing blacklist to blocklist is quite cool for one.
While the first that comes in mind is the "master copy" terminology of the recording industry, git's "master" terminology in fact comes from BitKeeper. In BitKeeper, there are apparently master and slave branches, where master refers to the source of truth where all the slaves pull their info from.
Hmm there's also something about he who picked the name (which wasn't Linus apparently) meant "master" as in e.g. "master recording", see the Twitter tweets in the comments to that answer. And that he doesn't remember if maybe he was influenced by BitKeeper, was 15 years ago
Since there's no "slave" in git (the master is not special, simply the default branch when creating a repo), and there's the already established terminology of "master copy" or "master recording", it makes sense to not associate git's terminology usage with slavery. I originally posted the BitKeeper story because I had no idea either.
I am fine with "blocklist" instead of "blacklist", because it sounds similar. But "allowlist" is just more difficult to pronounce.
Regarding your concern about people for whom English isn't the first language, I dont know how valid it is. Because those terms exist under the same names and fall under the same usage in many other languages. I can confirm that it is the case with Russian, as "черный список" is a commonly used phrase, and it literally translates to "black list", and has the exact same meaning as in English.
Language also adapts over decades so that words are computer/IT terms & have no other connotations. Like most of the stuff in this thread. Have a think about that.
'Whitelist' and 'blacklist' have nothing to do with race, they never had anything to do with race, and anyone who thinks they do is, quite simply, wrong. Knowing these facts, this is nothing like calling a black man 'boy' or using the n-word — so bringing them up is irrelevant.
I think there's a good argument to keep terms to maintain the historical connection. There's a boatload of math and CS terms that are very, very poorly named, but if you renamed them, you lose the link to prior sources.
Because the people/forces pushing them can’t be trusted.
Pushing such terms is (while presumably this is not the conscious intent) a means of cementing power by showing who (as in, “what vague coalition”, not “which specific people”) is in control.
there's hills I'd rather die on but it feels silly. What's appropriate is the transfer of the concept, not by how we judge the style of the analogy.
Ultimately if you're trying to edge proof language then you're just changing which bunch of people you're pissing off but I feel like people who do this act like its impossible they could piss anyone off over this.
I'd imagine it's because it gets extremely tedious. Switching out only whitelist and blacklist isn't a big deal, but with the ever increasing list of words being deemed as 'bad' (e.g. the 'mother' example) it becomes increasingly annoying to communicate. After all, it's distracting from the point just to virtue signal to certain types of vapid personalities.
Most people don't see 'blacklist' with racist connotations or think 'motherboard' is in any way at odds with transgenderism.
I'll fight for these terms because trying to "blocklist" them is such a ridiculous thing that I have zero interest in entertaining it. Nobody's actually offended by any of it, it's all made up by people with nothing better to do and then piled on by more people with nothing better to do.
The problem isn't that "allowlist" is preferred to "whitelist". The problem is that "whitelist" and "motherboard" are literally banned. Google is a private company so they can set whatever policies they want, but it's extremely condescending.
I'm generally on board with using culturally neutral terms, particularly since they're often more descriptive of the actual thing being described. I think there would be far less resistance if people didn't feel coerced.
I've always pictured a 'blacklist' as a document with blacked-out redacted text; a whitelist is just the opposite. It wasn't until this substitutional whitewashing[0] of the English language that I realized whitelist/blacklist held negative connotations for some people.
I just don't like people telling me what to say or write. I think it's unhealthy to look for grievances in language and that if you get good enough at doing so you might not be able to stop. I also think terms like these are just a small part of an ongoing effort.
Independent of all other political goings on, in a vacuum, I could agree that we should get rid of white and blacklist and replace them with something else.
because you give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
look up "menstruators" and "birthing people" to see what else that kind of people fight for.
>objectively clearer
then it wouldn't be necessary to force the change. nobody had a problem with these words until very recently, and only in very narrow circles of very loud people with disproportionate amount of power
>especially for folks who's first language is not English?
You may very well may be right that terms "allowlist" and "blocklist" are objectively clearer. I'm in favor of the idea of changing language to make things clearer and more effective. But the contention I have is that these changes aren't motivated for the pursuit of clarity. They are motivated by a need for cleansing. "whitelist" and "blacklist" are innocuous terms. They have been around for ages. Used and understood with no controversy by our most prestigious institutions from around the world. Then suddenly, within a matter of two years, the term is high-jacked by upper echelon members of our society. The words are re-defined to take on a new meaning and a new interpretation. Virtually every one of us who used this term are now deemed bad. Oppressors. On the wrong side of history. Racists. Now deemed a fireable offense. No room for debate and discussion. It is for these reasons that I push back. The motivation behind this change is wrong and has the potential to be all consuming of our language and culture, deeming innocuous terms as oppressive when they are not.
As I posted to a child: Language also adapts over decades so that words are computer/IT terms & have no other connotations. Like most of the stuff in this thread. Have a think about that.
Unless there is proof that whitelist & blacklist (as terms) were ratified around 'white people good, black people bad' then it is just personal offence at that point.
I wouldn't be so worried about non-native English speakers. 'Whitelist' and 'blacklist' are common enough terms that they've become loanwords in other languages. In Chinese, at least, the equivalent terms are 白名单 'white name list' and 黑名单 'black name list' and 拉黑 'pull (into) black(list)' is common vernacular for blocking someone on social media.
Because they're established terms, and the witchhunt goes so far as to break builds and cause needless work just for the sake of political correctness: https://github.com/ostreedev/ostree/issues/2360
Political correctness linters require you to explicitly acknowledge or disable warnings when you're doing things like pasting existing URLs.
And it never stops with one term. It started with master/slave (which are now replaced with dozens of synonyms that are often hard to figure out), then whitelist/blacklist, and the activists are already queueing up the next words for sure.
Few people want to ban others from using alternative terms that they consider better, but where they draw the line is when others prevent them from using the terms they deem appropriate, or demand/force additional work.
whitelist and blacklist are lazy language, even if you ignore the fact that you personally are not bothered by them and you don't have the mental capacity to understand why someone else might be. They carry no intrinsic meaning, and if you can't come up with more descriptive language you are the problem. In all cases you can come up with a better word - include, deny, allow, block, ban, accept, etc. It all depends on what you are actually talking about. Enjoy your high paying job a Truth Social (I bet!).
My problem with all of this "progressiveness" in the workplace is that it just reeks of laziness.
There are real problems in this world, yet it seems that the progressives are going after the minute details. From a SWE perspective, it would be like your app getting crushed by bugs and technical debt while you argue over how big the logo on the login page should be.
The worst part of all of this, is the companies that are actively pushing this crap are the same companies that have the resources to make a difference in this world.
If you're a company with a 1T+ market cap, actually do something bold with your cash. Imagine if all the top tech companies approached a bunch of non-profits trying to help people in 3rd world countries and said: "here's a blank check, do what you need to". We could solve a shitload of problems on this planet.
But no, we all are just quibbling about our pronouns and how to write "inclusively".
> Journalist Rebecca Baird-Remba tweeted an “inclusive warning” she received on the word “landlord,” which Google suggested she change to “property owner” or “proprietor.”
> A transcribed interview of neo-Nazi and former Klan leader David Duke—in which he uses the N-word and talks about hunting Black people—gets no notes.
I think unfortunately a lot of folks think this is a feature, not a bug.
I spent many years in the bluest corner of a very blue state. But still I can't imagine any objection to the word "landlord" outside of (1) a right wing attempt to satirize the left, (2) a Google product brainstorming meeting, or (3) a rare sincere outlier or concern troll. In any of those cases I don't think this is necessary.
That said, if the word "landlord" organically fell out of favor and out of usage to be replaced by something else I wouldn't care. Language is always evolving, and usually we don't make a big deal out of it. It's mundane and can often be helpful. It doesn't have to become a proxy for culture war arguments if we don't make it one.
But to have Google (or any AI) in charge of this... just... no. Admittedly that's a common stance for me but I think it's well justified here anyway.
Landlord gets hit from multiple sides; those who don't like that it contains "lord" which is a male term, those who don't like that landlords exist, and those who don't like that the concept of owning land exists.
Apartment buildings yes, but most single family homes (where people use the term landlord the most I suspect) are usually owned by an identifiable individual.
A caveat of bending over backwards to be as inclusive as possible is that sometimes you end up including people who are just plain nuts. You end up enshrining the personal problems of a handful of people into company policy.
As someone who somewhat supports public land ownership (of the Georgism variety), I think you'd have to be plain nuts to use that belief to justify discouraging others to use the word 'landlord'. Especially considering I hear the word more from people who oppose land ownership than from anyone else. I'm more inclined to believe that this is about gender.
And the new concept is property owner can be of any gender so change the word that points out to one particular gender. When did change become so difficult in this society? Ha!!
> those who don't like that landlords exist, and those who don't like that the concept of owning land exists.
I think these two groups would prefer "landlord" over "proprietor" because "landlord" has a much more negative connotation and probably inspires a visceral reaction in anyone who's had a bad landlord. Only the "male" thing makes any sort of sense from a left wing POV.
It’s just a modern word. “Landlord”. People know what it means. Stop anybody on the street and ask them what a landlord is? They will tell you. It’s an established word. What’s the point in changing it because a few people actively want to be offended?
Sure the origin is to do with Lords but landlord isn't male, anyone can be a landlord, pretending it's gendered is just lying to try and be offended. Presumably, such people think the word coward references bovines as it includes the word cow.
I don't like that landlords exist, but that's an inordinately stupid reason to try and get rid of a word. Surely noone believes that by sensoring a word you get rid of that which the word describes.
> pretending it's gendered is just lying to try and be offended.
Please don't assume this. In the southern US in the late 80s and early 90s, "landlady" was a term that was very commonly used for female "landlords". I'm not sure if it's specifically regional, though.
> word coward references bovines as it includes the word cow.
I once was scolded by a United Airlines flight agent at Denver when I expressed disappointment that my full-fair buisness class ticket was downgraded to coach because of an operational change. I said, perhaps a bit flippantly, "I didn't pay for a J ticket (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fare_basis_code#Booking_class) to sit in steerage."
She replied: "Sir! How dare you compare people flying coach to cattle!"
(Of course, the word "steerage" has nothing to do with cattle. We sent a Fed-Ex to United corporate telling them we didn't like being scolded and got an apology and a full refund for that flight. This was in 1998 or so. I doubt that would happen today.)
I would be extremely surprised if this came from the left: most people I know relish the negative connotation of being able to describe someone as a landlord.
I would believe the GP's second hypothesis; it's hard to imagine who else would even think to substitute "property owner" for "landlord" (it's not even accurate!)
As possible a reason for #2 going wrong as any other. But #2 thinking they know what's best for humanity is an established enough pattern that I imagine it happens organically as well.
A nudging system like this better have a much higher signal to noise ratio otherwise it really amps up the clippy-like annoyance. Keep in mind this isn't something you have to go turn on in a menu for "help me write inclusively", it's enabled by default for all; and while I might personally appreciate the reminders when they do work, I'm not sure as many users of the software think playing word police should be a priority.
A significant number of people, perhaps even a heavy majority, think there's nothing wrong with "landlord" that needs improvement. Change for change's sake isn't a great justification.
It's hard not to secretly suspect that some of these things arise that way-- satire that is so spot on that it gets adopted as the truth.
> and out of usage to be replaced by something else I wouldn't care
Fundamentally that's why language bullying works-- it doesn't matter what words are used so long as the communicating parties understand each other. Not only does it mean that it's not worth it to fight back, it makes anyone who does fight back against it look automatically suspect.
The same is true for a lot of other bullying: ignoring that its bullying deprives it of its power. Or, at least, it denies it of it's power until it doesn't.
But do we want to live in a world where our language is constantly being rewritten-- at a non-zero cost-- by bullies (and their automation)? Reasonable people could debate it.
Policing Language (and frequently changing it) is one of the levers of control that was outlined heavily by Orwell in 1984, with the concept of Doublespeak.
Now I know people are bored of parallels between reality and 1984, or Brave New World, or whatever other dystopia novels. They were written by authors not prophets after all.
Still, it's impossible for me not to think we're on our way when I read something like
"But do we want to live in a world where our language is constantly being rewritten-- at a non-zero cost-- by bullies"
You mixed up newspeak, the constructed language the state was inventing, with doublethink, the practice of believing 2 contradictory statements that each support the state in opposing ways (having it both ways).
> It's hard not to secretly suspect that some of these things arise that way-- satire that is so spot on that it gets adopted as the truth.
There have been many PR/issues on github that were either very likely, or certainly submitted by trolls, that have been accepted.
[1] Although nowadays it's common to see master/slave being replaced, back in 2015 it was not common, this one one of the first things that dropped that terminology. The fact that the user is called pcbro and has a picture of PC Principal from South Park, makes it somewhat likely that it was a troll.
[2] I think based on the language used is almost 100% certainly a troll
But then Google gives you a car for free, then tells you it won't work in six months as they're canceling the service. Then they do it again, and again, and then no one wants a Google Car because it would just get canceled. The idea may have served them, the execution has not. This idea also translates into, "I know better than you what you want", which leads to not listening, not hearing, and ignoring your customer's needs, which is 199% Google.
Google is an ad company whose core competency is getting lots people to click on links and buy things in exchange for money. They aren't exactly revolutionizing the world for good. Most of their innovative ideas get a splashy launch, middling support for a while, and then fizzle and/or get killed.
The idea that there are millions of people who want to be told that motherboard is a dirty word every time they write it, but won't realize that desire until Google foists it on them, just strikes me as absurd.
Has it actually served them well? How many of Google’s controversial launches have turned out well? The YouTube acquisition was risky but that was more on the commercial side than on the product side.
I feel like I can just gesture to the stock price and say "scoreboard," but that seems an unfair dismissal of the question.
To expound on the topic a bit: I think when they were a smaller company it served them well consistently. Photos and Drive have become an enterprise cornerstone that supports their "light cloud" business space (quite a few people pay for that extra storage). Ads doesn't get talked about much, but the internal culture is very quick-innovate. Chrome went from being a wild idea to dominating the browser-share (and therefore giving Google a foot in the door on everyone's desktop computer), and then they parlayed that into a whole operating system play. Maps basically displaced most of the other players in that space and now competes with only a couple other contenders.
I don't know if it will continue to do so now that they're an 800-lb gorilla in the room. They've certainly become more structurally conservative in the decade-plus since their founding. And I think their push into Cloud is putting pressure on them to act a lot more starched-collar; Enterprise is a different customer than they're used to (or comfortable with) dealing with.
> you'd let the user set a "sensitivity" level for the writing
But what if the company found out (and some employee leaked) the fact that most people deliberately set the default level to "normal human speak", and its campaign to replace and redefine words doesn't have any democratic legitimacy (let alone add any commercial value)?
I'm not a native english speaker either. Chances are you aren't offending anyone. You probably know exactly which words of the english language are unambiguously offensive. Words like motherboard just aren't offensive.
In this particular case, the tool being discussed is meant almost exclusively for people writing "corporate PR approved" content, so it makes sense that the sensitivity setting is cranked.
If you read the article, it is clear who their prospective clients are. Big corporations pretending not to be racist. The next iteration will be a corporate-speak translator.
As annoying as a woke clippy might be, at times I realize that we're lucky we don't live in a racist clippy alt reality. "Would you like to expand all mentions of "n-word"?"
> I realize that we're lucky we don't live in a racist clippy alt reality
If someone is being racist, wouldn't we arguably be better off if they used language that made it transparent to the reader-- rather than disguised it with the magic of search and replace?
Real prejudice can't be erased by search and replace but it can be made more plausibly deniable.
I completely agree, but people complain about anti-racism being "forced" onto them. While it's annoying when it's disingenuous and superficial as it usually is, it's still most likely better than having the establishment pushing for racism or openly accepting it.
I think a grammar checker that warned about cross-cultural confusion would be pretty valuable in many writing contexts. It would best be constructed in that light: rather than moralizing or being activist just noting the fact that some text has a non-trivial odds of being understood in a way different than you likely intended.
So for example, a writer of British English may want to be warned that "Bring me some fags when you return" may be misunderstood by American readers.
This hypothetical checker might still warn you about "master"-- for example-- as there is now a sizable contingent that finds it controversial. ... but it would equally warn you against terms like "birthing person" which is considered by many to be biologically reductive to the point of being offensive, and by most people to be at least highly loaded.
Such a tool would almost certainly not caution you against "landlord".
Yes! This is much more interesting. Audience-based cultural & contextual awareness, rather than "assuming one global context" that takes the veneer of moral high ground. The former would be more helpful to a writer.
MS Word introduced a language censor like this recently (I've not seen it, only seen it announced at a workplace), so maybe they are following where MS leads?
It’s far less intrusive. It will highlight fuck, for example, and tell you “that language might be offensive to readers.” It also flags on idioms that may come across poorly if you aren’t familiar with them/know English well. In a strongly multicultural company it’s been quite nice to have it catch a couple of my phrasings that wouldn’t track well to a non English speaker.
I interpret Microsoft’s as helpful when considering ESL or other cultures. I interpret Google’s as straight woke. Very different products but you’re probably right that Microsoft led them there.
I have been thinking about this for a while, and came to the conclusion that the main weakness of progressivism is its arrogance. A progressive simply thinks that she is more educated, virtuous or simply better than others. This manifests subtly, from "helping poor immigrants", to not so subtle implementations, like knowing better what Google queries you actually meant to type, to censoring "fake news", because people do not have the faculty to decide for themselves, to downright auto-correction of people's speech. A progressive copes with this implied superiority by casting it as her goodness.
My take on the situation is that as a movement and political ideology "Progressivism" is steeped in a sense of righteousness. I very much sense progressives have internalized the notion that what they are fighting for is so obviously good, correct, and just that anyone who opposes such self-evidently virtuous things must either be 1) brainwashed by malevolent forces (Fox news, misinformation, propaganda, internalized oppression) or 2) constitutionally flawed people who cannot be redeemed and must be fought against ("Deplorables", fascists, nazis, racists, etc).
> A transcribed interview of neo-Nazi and former Klan leader David Duke—in which he uses the N-word and talks about hunting Black people—gets no notes. Radical feminist Valerie Solanas’ SCUM Manifesto gets more edits than Duke’s tirade; she should use “police officers” instead of “policemen,”
The intentions of these features aside which will no doubt be the topic of conversation, to me the biggest takeaway about this is just how entirely stupid AI still is. Failing to recognize context, wordplay, even names (suggesting alternatives to Motherboard), and so forth. Trying to adjust something as complex as 'inclusivity' by flipping words is like trying to change the tone of a poem by flipping individual letters. Entirely wrong level of abstraction.
> Cutting phrases like “whitelist/blacklist” and “master/slave” out of our vocabulary not only addresses years of habitual bias in tech terminology, but forces us as writers and researchers to be more creative with the way we describe things.
> calling landlords “property owners” is almost worse than calling them “landchads,” and half as accurate. It’s catering to people like Howard Schultz who would prefer you not call him a billionaire, but a “person of means.”
"I like the tool because it removes others' words that I don't like but I don't like the tool because it removes my words that others don't like"
> On a more extreme end, if someone intends to be racist, sexist, or exclusionary in their writing, and wants to draft that up in a Google document, they should be allowed to do that without an algorithm attempting to sanitize their intentions and confuse their readers.
The author does position themselves against algorithmic sanitization generally.
"Being more inclusive with our writing is a good goal, and one that’s worth striving toward as we string these sentences together and share them with the world. “Police officers” is more accurate than “policemen.” Cutting phrases like “whitelist/blacklist” and “master/slave” out of our vocabulary not only addresses years of habitual bias in tech terminology, but forces us as writers and researchers to be more creative with the way we describe things. Shifts in our speech like swapping “manned” for “crewed” spaceflight are attempts to correct histories of erasing women and non-binary people from the industries where they work."
This is a whole paragraph in the article where the author agrees this is good thing, just that google implemented it poorly.
Actually, it is generally understood that the owner/proprietor of a bar is the business owner (aka license owner) -- and that this in general is not the same person who owns the bricks.
A more clearcut case of semantic confusion I can see a crappy AI creating out of the blue would be:
"My proprietor said if I didn't pay the rent soon she was gonna ..."
Which clearly has a very different (and basically nonsensical) meaning than a the more natural formulation using the now thankfully forbidden L-word.
> A landlord is the owner of a house, apartment, condominium, land, or real estate which is rented or leased to an individual or business
How is that different from "property owner"? The difference is that to you, a native English speaker, landlord is a word you're familiar with. To others, it's a whole new word they need to learn, whereas property-owner is self-descriptive. It's like using good variable names in your code, you don't need to look up the definition of every word when you use re-use words that are common.
Well that's new to me, because I absolutely do not get that from the term "property owner". For example, if I have a place I own that my brother lives in, and someone asks my brother "who is the property owner", he would definitely answer me. I own that property. How does the term property owner say anything about where the person lives in?
Perhaps it's a very specific answer, but I write in simple English, since many of my readers are not native speakers. I stick to words people are likely to understand.
Our local immigration office recently picked a newer, better name, but since no one uses it, I'm sticking to the old one.
Another one is expat vs immigrant. I favor immigrant, but I can't rename expat insurance to immigrant insurance. The latter does not exist.
I use the gender-neutral "they" across the website, but sometimes "he" would be a lot clearer when replacing a singular noun like "the landlord".
Sometimes the common word is the right word to use. When in doubt, I refer to Google Trends.
And now the rest of the world will be very happy learn that they will once more have to silently deal with the aftermath
of America’s latest political trend.
After banning world-famous paintings from Facebook because they dared show a breast, a few well-off engineers and product managers will now pick which English words should remain, and which should be let go.
How nice of them. Don’t know what we’d do without them.
This isn't unique to SV. There are plenty of examples of words and behaviours that were commonplace and then over time evolved to be unacceptable to use in polite company.
I'd like to give some examples, but I fear I'd end up swiftly banned for even using some of the best examples.
One interesting case is "idiots, imbeciles and morons" - once technical terms to describe a mental health scale. The 'most insulting' end of the scale is now probably the most acceptable word to use in public!
> There are plenty of examples of words and behaviours that were commonplace and then over time evolved to be unacceptable to use in polite company.
Cmon man, there's a big difference between the natural evolution of language and some radical-run company forcibly jamming their desired changes down our throats through an instantaneous and global software update.
Absolutely do not do this. There is massive brigading that happens and the folks pushing the "anti-isms" are very very focused on this stuff. You will get on a list as some type of abuser / racist. Everyone knows to keep heads down on this stuff at a place like google or just find somewhere else to work. It really doesn't matter if you are liberal in all other ways even.
I think you could say, "following *this news* and other comments, I feel like my language is going to be constantly policed by my colleagues and this is a level of cognitive and emotional burden I dont want in my workplace".
Though, I agree.. inquisitions and dogma are honeytraps for free-thinkers, by signalling dissent you are exposing that you arent under their ideological control.
Disagreeable sorts should, whereever possible, not raise their hand when asked, "do you have any hetrodox opinions?".
Yep, I understand this could backfire and thank you for pointing it out. It's probably best to let it simmer on HN.
It's just my anecdotal experience with this kind of mentality that the people looking to enlighten us simple minded folk are also using any questioning or opposition of their enlightenment as an opportunity to shame those people that question or oppose. Some kind of twisted competition I guess.
(not to say I don't support enlightenment of certain issues, I do, but with limits)
There's plenty of other companies that have the other side of the coin in values though that would admire people who stand up. It's very nice to be a good culture fit at a company. I have a Blue Lives Matter flag in the corner of my camera during interviews and it's gotten me some really good offers and I havn't been declined once.
On the flip side, I know many that have been discriminated based on their looks or vocal patterns(trans / lgbt). Alot of companies and people assume these people are a problem because of what goes on at google and decline them due to culture fit.
Not being able to strike is not the win you think it is, as striking is the most powerful action that labor has and has lead to the very things you enjoy today - weekends and a 40 hour work week.
If you think google/netflix staff are going into the office and grinding out 40 hour workweeks - I live in the bay area - this is a total lie.
They are paid very well, many especially non-engineering roles have VERY flexible work setups.
Netflix had a big strike over Dave Chappelle
"Transgender Netflix employees and co-workers will stage a walkout next week protesting the streaming giant’s decision to release Dave Chappelle’s latest comedy special"
On Spotify we had the demand for employees direct editorial control of the Joe Rogan podcast:
"Spotify staffers are now considering a walkout or full-blown strike if their demands for direct editorial oversight of The Joe Rogan Experience podcast aren’t met."
I don't listen to Joe Rogan, but I don't think my work environment is necessarily helped by the staff at spotify taking over his show.
So these are the content strikes (the public side of internal pressures).
The question currently is, do you want the loudest voices to control all conversation?
Then for sure, support these strikes and have things taken over by these staff.
What possible kind of persecution could GP experience?
Even if declined citing a reason everyone could reasonably agree is reprehensible, do you imagine that the activists at Google would - what - put GP on a Silicon Valley blacklist that everyone subscribes to?
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 598 ms ] threadGoogle Docs will “warn you away from inappropriate words” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31086310 - April 2022 (964 comments)
Shouldn't you say that we got spelling assistance correct instead of right? Left-handed people might not like to see the word "right" being used to mean "correct"
As a left handed non birthing person, I was very offended by their comment. Also I was a little offended by your comment, please in the future include “L” or “R” at the beginning of all messages.
Thank you for attempting to be a left handed ally.
* Property ownership is becoming out of question for an increasing fraction of Americans
* Any kid of retirement (as in not having to work and enjoying life off your savings) has become a pipe dream
* Having a single-income family with one parent dedicated to raising the children has become unaffordable.
* Even if you managed to put enough effort to teach your kids the values of hard work and setting long-term goals, the public education system is set to confuse them and kick them off that path, so they will never be competitive with those who received education abroad.
At the same time, the media oligopoly [0] keeps ignoring the problems and pushing the narratives how addressing short-term emotional problems is the top 1 priority, and anyone who wants real prosperity instead of taking a part in the never-ending mutual comforting game is the enemy of the people.
I wonder if people will ever realize they are being manipulated into poverty before it's too late.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31077525
Notice how we, as a society, spent relatively little time discussing the 2008 Mortgage Crisis and Occupy Wall Street.
Meanwhile news outlets have been beating the "inclusivity" / race / gender drum for _years_.
Time to wake up, folks.
Comparing that to "inclusivity" is also strange because inclusivity is not an event. A single event has a natural decay of relevance, the further into the past it gets.
It was an event that absolutely decimated MANY people in America financially. And for many of those people, their only fault in the whole thing was, I guess, being ignorant enough to be taken advantage of.
We spend a lot more time discussing things that are a lot more irrelevant than that.
> Comparing that to "inclusivity" is also strange because inclusivity is not an event. A single event has a natural decay of relevance, the further into the past it gets.
OK, then instead compare the general theme of the 2008 Mortgage Crisis / Occupy Wall Street. Specifically: how much time do we spend talking about a small group of powerful elites pulling the financial strings in this country? And how does that compare to how much we talk about "inclusivity"?
The money and power concentrated into the hands of relatively few is an issue that is _several_ orders of magnitude larger than the "inclusivity" stuff we're fed much more often.
That's not a mere coincidence.
HN? Are you talking about in the news? A specific news outlet?
The imbalance of power between the ultra-wealthy and the rest of us is in the news all the time, at least that I watch and read.
So the media is abusing it by spamming people's attention with disproportionately exaggerated problems that don't cost the elites anything to solve, so that people won't have any time left solving the problems that would look bad on the corporate bottom line.
1. There is a small minority of people who truly believed in it in the first place.
2. Then there are people who exploit the system by charging hefty sums for diversity trainings (and calling any opponents to such spending racist).
3. Then there are people who sold the #2 group the student loans and gave the degrees where all you need to graduate is to repeat a fairly basic set of dogmas.
4. There are people who are disillusioned about the whole thing, but are now stuck with the student loans and no other way to make comparable money.
5. There are entrepreneurial people that want to make a change, but since most business niches are occupied by the corporations, the only outlet they have found is to join the diversity & inclusion effort.
6. There are people that want to get rid of their competitors. And since being not inclusive enough is now a firable offense, they are stuck competing who can say more things they don't really believe in.
Ironically, it reminds me of the political situation in Russia, where many people support the war despite suffering economically from it, despite having their children slaughtered, despite losing the rest of civil freedoms in the past months. The mechanism is the same: if you don't play along with the narrative, the competition will eat you alive. And it you overplay it in a clever way, you can get a promotion or a government contract.
I wish sociologists actually studied such phenomena rather than being another echo chamber for the same narrative as everyone else.
Can you disable this feature globally for your account, or do you need to disable this in every document explicitly?
As a Google employee expressing my own opinion and observations of company culture, I can say that these are 100% not mistakes. Many Google employees are just so out of touch with the real world that they believe it is the duty of Google Docs to change the English language to exclude the words "landlord", "motherboard", and even "mother" in most contexts (sub with birthing person).
This may seem unbelievable, but the word "motherboard" is literally banned within Google and you are required to use "mainboard" instead. You are not allowed to use this word in documentation or code, and you're also not allowed to say it privately in chats or emails.
George Carlin's skit couldn't be more timely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isMm2vF4uFs
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/450328-don-t-you-see-that-t...
Two examples:
Allowlist and denylist are much clearer to a kid learning about computers than whitelist or blacklist. If you've never heard of whitelist before, it's sounds like a list of things that are white. If you've never of allowlist, it's pretty obvious what it means - a list of things that are allowed.
Similarly, mainboard is clearer than motherboard. Mainboard implies there's one main board. Motherboard could be more ambiguous to someone who's never seen the inside of a computer. Are there two boards, mother and father? Do boards somehow inherit from one another? Is there a grandmother board that's even bigger? Obvious to us, but not obvious to a kid learning computers for the first time.
Not saying these terms are better (there's a huge switching cost and the terms are less colorful), but do want to point out there are dimensions to consider beyond inclusivity. One benefit is better language precision.
Am I crazy or does mainboard strongly imply there's more than one -- eg main, supporting / secondary, etc? Stories have a main character which is almost by definition not the only character in the narrative.
Edit: isn't the videocard technically a "non-main-board"? I mean nobody called it a "daughterboard" but it kind of technically is one isn't it? And so if "mainboard" implies the existence of "non-main-boards"... that accurately describes its relationship with the video card, which is a baord.
https://twitter.com/canadaduane/status/1465737258850344961
However, terms like motherboard and whitelisting are just a few in the universe of complicated (yet gender neutral) terms like GPU, CPU, DDR, parity, firewall, IP6, etc.
Of course, that is not a reason to not improve the language where one can, but I don't know if it will help that much in CS.
A short-film/parody on how an extreme obsession with inclusive speech makes it impossible to communicate clearly without consequences.
Source: I also work at Google.
This is the public one: https://developers.google.com/style/word-list
I don't want to share the name of the internal one publicly, but anyone at Google can ping me if they want help finding it, or they can search "respectful words"
I’ve mostly cleansed myself of these words while I’m at work but I generally let the shit fly once Im out of the setting
I just look at it like any other corporate politics, you have to play along to get anywhere
Outside of work I’m my own person and use any word I want. Retard, cripple, bum, idiot, motherboard, man, master, slave, fuck, shit, piss!
See! Fire me Amazon I fucking dare you! :)
The mote in the employee's eye vs. the log in the company's eye
I did get an angry code review response from a fellow engineer once, after writing in a commit description (not the actual code) something like "this is a stupid fix but it stops the linter from bitching about so and so" - for using both the words "stupid" and "bitch". I guess the second one was on point but referring to my own work as "stupid" is pretty okay in my book. I would never ever describe anyone else's work as such.
But someone reading your commit message doesn't know that. Someone new to the company might see your change and think "That looks reasonable to me", but see that you called it "stupid", and start to doubt themselves.
Although it makes technology more boring, I think there is some value in using precise words over emotive words. Perhaps using the word "pedantic" instead, or "no-op", would have conveyed more information, without disparaging the amount of intelligence that went into making it (or into the design/configuration of the linter).
Odd thing to do. "Black" is synonymous with darkness, hidden, off, empty space, and things of that nature. For this reason "blacklist" works. There is no clash with people, or any disrespect.
Politically correct OCD invents problems. Then dictate to others how they should solve those problems. Add penalties for those who don't follow the prescribed solutions to invented problems, and we find ourselves in 2022 looking at Google's efforts to solve the invented problems.
The author of the Vice article states that by removing master/slave and black/whitelist, it "addresses years of habitual bias in tech terminology".
Accusations of bias are just accusations. We can't "find" bias on the grounds of matching words in technical contexts to the same words in other contexts.
In the S&M world, the context is not actual master and slave, it's a new context that encompasses consent and good times. Likewise, the technical context is not one that involves people, but machines communicating under specific rules which "master/slave" adequately describes.
This is meaningless. I work at a large organization that has banned terms like "master/slave" and "whitelist/blacklist", and I can also readily find these terms through internal search, simply because it's taking a while for the requirements to be implemented and enforced.
> I could not find anything referencing a banned non-inclusive words policy in the employee policy guide.
This also doesn't mean a lot, unless you've comprehensively searched through every possible location for the relevant policy, as almost every organization in existence has terrible knowledge management.
Go talk directly to someone in HR and tell me if they tell you that those words aren't restricted.
The same can't be said for people who are blind or deaf.
Do you have any data on that? It does not coincide with my anecdotal experience. I'm in a Math/CompSci department and there's zero trans people here (that I know of), while there are some in other departments. Anyhow, trans people are a tiny percentage of the total population, so it would be hard to have somewhat solid statistics on them.
There was a smattering in other afaik. I was on the board of the LGBT club so I knew at least the ones who were out / came frequently.
Several impressive videos on social media have shown that programming without using vision or even hands is perfectly possible, there are very few good reasons why such underrepresentation shouldn't be corrected for. In fact, I believe for many disabilities a job in fields like data science or programming would be much easier to adjust for disabilities than many other sectors where interactivity is key.
I'd bet the theater kids gave CS a run for its money. Or the art kids. Just fewer gay men and lesbians in CS.
https://www.eurogamer.net/twitch-removes-blind-playthrough-t...
It boils down to a few things:
1.) A lot of this identity politics is coming from upper-middle class people of color OR white queer people, who are using it to make money and boost their careers. The disabled are, in America at least, far less likely to have careers to boost. This is why the type of disability activism you see in identity politics is usually limited to mental illnesses.
2.) The disabled, to some degree, disprove some of the ideological underpinnings of modern identity politics. Modern identity politics is based on the idea that if we change society/fix discrimination, then everybody (all groups) will have the same rates of success. But even if social discrimination didn't exist, those of us who are disabled literally can't do things able-bodied people can do. There's an undercurrent of 'discrimination is bad BECAUSE all these groups can be normal/productive/participate in capitalism' and the disabled make people confront that they don't actually believe all people are equal. They believe all PRODUCTIVE people are equal, but they can't say that, because then they sound like those 'horrible' right wingers.
3.) Fighting on behalf of the disabled doesn't make people feel like they're 'on the right side of history'. I've experienced a shit ton of sexism and homophobia from right-wingers, but most conservatives would be horrified at insulting me for having MS and agree that I should get help if I need it. They just disagree on how it should be done. That's harder to fight about, which means it's harder for the media to turn into a frenzy, and that's where people on both sides get their 'marching orders'.
You are using the term "mental illness" in a way that seems to exclude people for whom it is obviously a disability. These people are characterized by:
1. One or more hospitalizations that are not voluntary.
2. Diagnosis by medical professionals, not psychologists or oneself.
3. Having to take medications forever, at least in order to be employable or generally take care of themselves, that cause substantial long term effects including diabetes, brain damage, disfiguring tics and involuntary movements, recurring tumors, sudden death, and other problems.
The people you are thinking of, who act like it is possible to normalize and be open about mental illness, are, let's say "type A", while I have defined above what I'll call "type B".
I just want to call your attention to the fact that "type B" people are erased as much or more by "type A" as the visibly disabled that you acknowledge. You are inadvertently promoting that erasure.
"Type B" people bridge both worlds but can't talk about it normally. I do recognize the emotions regarding "type A". I recognize why they do what they do, and I see you embracing their compulsive erasure from existence of "type B".
The issue of productivity is difficult, if you think there is a right answer. If someone can work, at incredible cost, should they not take pride? Yeah, it's luck that I, or anyone, can work, but you wouldn't sneer at someone with an intellectual disability that was bagging groceries, would you?
Mental disabilities are frequently easier to hide (much like being bi is easier to hide than being homosexual), which means that people with mental illnesses/disabilities are more likely to know how people treat them before and after finding out they're disabled (as opposed to someone whose disability is physical or intellectual who are more likely to always be seen as disabled and not see that on-off switch to ableism). People with mental illnesses are also more likely to have difficulties stemming from stigma and erasure vs. physical limits (I'm not saying any difficulties are worse than the others; they're just different) and intersectionality/identity politics has a lot of focus on correcting or changing behavior and thoughts to improve society.
Intersectionality/identity politics, in 2022, don't really do a great job at changing physical reality, which tends to be more necessary for physical and intellectual disability activism.
There are also historical reasons for the intertwining of mental illness advocacy and intersectionality (the rise of intersectionality/id politics in the upper-middle class coinciding with the rise of psychiatry/therapy/ the move to destigmatize mental illness, for example, whereas the sensory and physically disabled communities had their own activist movements/organizations for decades/centuries beforehand which made them more likely to have disagreements).
> Yeah, it's luck that I, or anyone, can work, but you wouldn't sneer at someone with an intellectual disability that was bagging groceries, would you?
Of course not, but I'm not a capitalist (or a communist, for that matter). The point is more that a lot of people into intersectional activism claim to also be anti-capitalist, but their embrace of diversity often depends on diverse people being able to work and if they advocated for the disabled, they'd have to confront that they can't use 'disabled people can do anything able bodied people can do' as a reason, which means they'd have to articulate some reason diversity matters other than to let marginalized people/ their pet companies make $$$.
I just think if said grocery bagger had to stop bagging groceries that they don't lose value as a human. Of course everyone should be proud of what they can contribute to society and their communities.
I understand where you're coming from, but the implication that someone with a mental disability has control over how they're perceived, or even accurate knowledge is wrong.
If they share information, there's no going back, and it can have devastating consequences.
If they don't intentionally share information, it may leak out anyway. Everybody knows what "crazy eyes" are, and gets uncomfortable if someone rambles on too much or shows excessive emotion.
If I look normal, but I have difficulty walking, and sometimes limp a bit, nobody is going to kick my leg when they notice, to prove that I'm not dangerous and they're not ill but I am. And if I share that I have a club foot, or that my lungs are damaged so I don't get enough oxygen, it's not likely to destroy relationships or seem relevant to share with everyone.
On the other hand, the slightest hint that someone might be mentally unstable leads to immediate concern - is this person a threat? Everybody knows this, and every crazy person feels exactly the same way around someone else that might be crazy. They feel it from both sides, but you have felt it from at least one.
So the way you prove someone isn't a threat is by testing whether they are vulnerable, and if they react incorrectly to that test. You prod them, you try some BS to see if they get upset or respond "normally". It's like being out on a tree limb and hearing a crack. You hold on to something and wiggle it a little to see if it's about to break. Everybody knows this from life experience.
I guess what I'm saying is that the uncertainty and ambiguity around mental illness is its own horror show of catch-22s, not a kind of privilege.
Someone with serious mental illness has to be tranquilized more than just enough to function normally, but enough to suppress normal reactions to provocation.
And once that is accomplished, they cannot share information about their condition indiscriminately because they are totally vulnerable. They can't casually ramble on about their thought process, because it will sound paranoid, no matter how controlled their actions are. Even to other mentally ill people because everybody thinks the same way, because it's logical but awful.
The choices that someone with an invisible condition other than mental illness, have, do not exist for someone with it. Every case where it is suspected, entails the threat of being outside the basic social contract.
>I just think if said grocery bagger had to stop bagging groceries that they don't lose value as a human
Sure, what I meant is that if their job is an immense source of pride and purpose in life, then aren't they in effect promoting the work-based ethic that bothers you? How can you have values without devaluing people who have different values?
Maybe the pendulum will stop or swing back, but "that's not going to catch on" has been wrong for nearly two decades.
Or repeating the cult dogma in a cult.
This isn’t about rationality or what is ridiculous. It is about proving that you are part of a group. And to prove that people have done insane things for thousands of years. Much worse than calling a mother a birthing parent tbh, but it shows you what direction we are headed.
And interestingly this seems to apply to corporations too. They too (probably because of management), want to demonstrate they are part of a group/cult.
In this context, what does it mean? For the other stuff, it is easily envisioned that it means official documents need to be scanned for prohibited terms. Ultimately, the term "motherboard" has to at least appear in an official document of banned words. In private chats, do they rely on the other party to turn you in? Is it automatically detected? Are you prevented from actually typing it? Can you post this link [1]?
[1] - https://www.newegg.com/Motherboards/Category/ID-20
I'm waiting until they start marking "Latino" as non-inclusive, and start forcing "Latinx".
The "-inx" suffix (when pronounced "inks") somehow makes the word sound more objectifying, sexist and even lewd than the original words.
To be fair, I've literally never heard anyone try to pronounce "latinx" outloud. And I live in one of the most stereotypical liberal/left-wing cities in the US (Seattle). The usage of that term seems to be mostly confined to a vocal twitter/internet minority and written form (whether online or in promotional materials for certain things).
Even here, this term is extremely fringe irl. And I don't think I've ever felt pressured to use it either, given I've never heard it in use (despite my friend group having a couple of people who are very left-leaning and are vocal about it).
I guess tl;dr, don't mistake a fringe vocal minority on the internet for an accurate representation of what it is like to actually live in the US (even when it comes to certain most heavily stereotyped big cities).
I guess you quit listening to NPR before they started using that one. It's ubiquitous now.
What was it that made you quit?
> Don't mistake fringe vocal minorities on the internet for an accurate representation of what it is like to actually live in the US.
They I agree, though this particular example is not just internet fringe.
With that in mind, i guess i mostly meant "people you actually talk to or hear talking not in public news media" when i said that i dont ever hear it said outloud.
I am not disagreeing with you, and sure, your future prediction is not out of the realm of possibilities. I am just saying that I am yet to see it happen as of today. And I don't really care to be outraged about something that isn't a thing yet.
It isn't global warming or some other thing that is difficult to reverse or has some life/death stakes. Language has been perpetually changing, and still is. Really fast, and really wildly. So making a trouble out of "this one word might become used in future in real life at some point, so you should worry about it now" is not something I am really into wasting energy on.
Don't you mean "Thanx"?
Same as "master branch"/"main branch". If there is an equivalent, less fancy and less controversial technical term, by all means let's use that instead. As long as you don't start with "childbearing person board" or "privileged branch" or whatever.
I've never even heard of any controversy over the word "motherboard". I just did some internal searches. It seems to be a well-used word, both in code and in documentation. (I did a code search for both "motherboard" and "mainboard" and they seem to be used by similar amounts, fwiw.)
In fairness, I will say that I do watch my language more closely than I think is really needed:
The terms "whitelist" and "blacklist" are built into my thought-vocabulary. I do find myself switching to "allowlist" and "denylist" as I translate my thoughts in discussions. Not that anyone has ever "called me out" if I slipped up with "whitelist".
The fact that it’s in a list at all should make you reconsider your employment with them.
The inmates run the asylum at Google, just because they haven’t come for your corner/fiefdom yet doesn’t mean they won’t.
More importantly: when I was there, I actively fought against this kind of shit, but it was clear at some point that the content moderation team had enough sway with execs that they were going to continue this sort of idiocy untrammelled.
Once you stop thinking of companies as single entities and instead as large kingdoms containing many fiefdoms it starts making more sense.
You can see it even in this thread, there exist Lists and tools that can be used as weapons against other groups, even if sometimes they're not currently being used because they're not currently at war.
That said, consider that leaving just means one less opponent for the other side.
Meanwhile, Google is rotten at the executive layer. No amount of good people working for them will fix things.
I'm going to be charitable and suggest this person is just accidentally leaving out context, rather than deliberately trying to rile people up because they disagree with something :)
The figurative part of "motherboard" is pretty vague: it's just larger than the "daughterboards" and in charge of them--it doesn't birth or nurture them or do anything that's stereotypically maternal.
As for whether it's the main board or not, surely that's a matter of opinion. An AI researcher would be much more interested in what the GPU board is doing than on what the motherboard is doing.
I've heard claims that it's a motherboard because it has female connectors (i.e., sockets), but that's sort hard to square with the contemporary coinage of "daughterboards."
The idea that a large, influential organization plays along with the idea that "motherboard" should in any way be filtered is as absurd as filtering the words "table" or "stereo".
But in typical HN fashion, i'm sure you know better. Just like the people who say that X or Y should take 2 people over a weekend. Remind me again what your experience is here to say they are wrong? Are you a culture expert of some sort? It's really not obvious from your HN profile or comment exactly why you think your expertise should overrule theirs.
Otherwise, i'd say it sure is fun to get upset and pretend it's the reactionary woke police, rather than a group of people carefully thinking something through.
I think your militant stance on the subject is more problematic than someone else's view that the word motherboard is not offensive.
Also, advocating for some narrow unknown group of people to have exclusive right to define language gives off a little cultish vibes.
See, this is the whole issue right here. It's not about a single culture. It's hundreds. This wordlist is for global products with literally billions of users in literally hundreds of countries.
Yes, it requires experts to know what will be inoffensive to all of them at once (or at least, the vast majority).
Your "narrow unknown group of people" is really "people who are experts at language and culture and understand this".
Paying and asking them to help figure out how to create common standards that will cover the majority of the hundreds of cultures at once does not seem cultish or militant at all to me?
It is something literally every single company with literally billions of global users in hundreds of cultures does.
Otherwise they end up naming their product something offensive to a culture, etc.
News stories about those gaffes occur literally all the time, so i'm sort of shocked you are really trying to argue that trying to avoid them is somehow cultish.
I am probably one of the least "politically correct" people you will find, and i'm not even all that progressive in the scheme of things, yet this clearly makes sense to me. So I look at this, and see HN having a huge overreaction because they are upset the world is becoming a lot more politically correct for no obvious benefit.
That bothers me too - a lot in fact. I just don't see the particular thing complained about in this part of the thread (a wordlist used to ensure google doesn't say offensive things in product documentation) all that objectionable.
The original article, about offensive/inclusive/etc AI writing nudges, bothers me about 1000x more than the wordlist.
I would urge you to actually seek facts first, rather than make them up yourself just because you are sure you are right. It's not a particularly helpful approach.
It's quite obviously not a carefully thought through decision, it's more or less random machine-gunning of random words that happen to have the word mother in them because ... well ... because they think motherhood is offensive? Presumably? It's impossible to discern any logic here. This supposedly expert decision is already leading to near universal derision towards Google, a once universally respected name. That derision is now also coming from left-wing media outlets that you'd expect to be fully supportive, like VICE. That's because it's quite obviously insane. Nobody is looking at this and thinking "about time", they're thinking "wtf is that?!".
For the former, it's none of the things you say, and AFAICT, you have precisely zero knowledge of either the decision making process, or how it is used, etc.
So saying "it's quite obviously x" seems trivially wrong.
No one in this chain said that, however. Some person gave an opinion and you then replied with "you don't have any knowledge on this". Even though in this case, it is indeed a cultural question which everyone has some knowledge and likely opinion on.
If you want to encourage others to seek more information out (if it's out there), then sure. But at some point it just sounds like you're appealing to an authority that doesn't exist here. And honestly, who IS the authority of a thing like language and its usage is a conversation in and of itself.
I would be interested to see the rationale for the change, if it is so clearly benign and not part of any secret-sauce or competitive advantage - similar to the AP Stylebook.
This isn't a debate about cloud security, or strongly-typed languages, or the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and its impact on the Earth. It's a cultural discussion, and I believe citizens should be encouraged to form an opinion, rather than insulted and berated for having one.
You actually didn't defend your position in any way on the topic, you only berated me for not having faith in closed-door internal Google processes to alter the use of the English language.
From another comment: >you have precisely zero knowledge of either the decision making process, or how it is used, etc.
Isn't that the issue being brought up? Let's be charitable: Could it be that "mainboard" is the English term used by ESL speakers across the world, and "motherboard" is only used in the US/UK? Perhaps. I know you work at Google, but I am surprised at your surprise that people would be skeptical of that company's motivation.
I'd be interested in your opinion on the first-order topic, and also why you're so angry in the second place.
Even google translate mainboard to "carte mère" !!!
These departments have an expertise, sure. But part of being an intelligent, critically thinking person is knowing when people are speaking within the scope of their expertise and when they aren’t. You and I both know that this wouldn’t hold up under Daubert. This isn’t like telling you not to name your car the “Nova” in Spanish-speaking countries. It’s like trying to make “LatinX” happen.
So this list is real, you own it, and you acknowledge that as a continued employee you are supporting this nonsense?
At any rate, while I wouldn't go out of my way to squelch the word, I wouldn't go out of my way to insist on it, either. "Logic board" and "mainboard" both work and get the point across.
i mean there are some bad words you shouldn’t use, but i just can’t grasp why is there something like “motherboard” on that list?
They do this with the knowledge that most people won't stand up against them out of fear, even though they don't agree with them - the sociopathic Google walkout organizers leveraged this to great effect when they collected signatures and then changed the text of what people had already signed to be a psychotic list of unreasonable demands, knowing that it'd be career suicide for any of us to complain publicly about it (there wasn't much public noise but a lot of us were really pissed about that privately). Surprise, surprise, the overlap between that group and the group later pushing for unionization was nearly 100%.
This idea that it is a recent invention isn't really supported by the reality on the ground. Things like the satanic panic, Dungeons & Dragons / Metal being satanic, Rock being evil, and a host of other things have long been used to remove "undesirable" people for a long time before 2014 on both the local and national level.
The extremes have always used shunning and economic warfare tactics to shut up those who disagree with them.
The DnD panic was about kids. It was about kids. I find it absurd to go after DnD like that but I don't recall ever reading about people being shunned, losing there jobs etc as happens these days.
People have, for many many centuries use various shunning tactics to enforce their will upon others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks_controversy
could you please explain to me, a non-native english speaker, why using "mainboard" is better than "motherboard"?
Basically I don't believe that "precaution" you mention is an apathetic but cautious person. These changes are more often motivated by someone who thinks "this might offend someone so I will take offense to it too".
Motherboard. It took me a few moments to guess as to why this is a "problem". Obviously due to the word mother. Let me roll my eyes.
Frankly it is completely absurd to be offended about a word that is part of a process that keeps our very species existing. Sadly I would not be surprised at all if there are google employees who are offended on behalf of "people being offended".
People are wild. You can find small groups of people who do and think insane things. We as a society should not try to cater to every possible sensibility. That's a recipe for disaster.
I'm tired of this sort of shallow, performative, language policing. I'm (I believe) a socially progressive, inclusive person, but this shit makes me tired. Just fucking leave it alone and spend our collective fucks to give on something that actually matters.
This doesn't seem too unlikely. I've been hoping tech would go this way -- We're doing IVF in June, and it's still hit-or-miss whether it'll work.
In that future, if someone identifies as nonbinary but still wishes to have a child, neither "mother" nor "father" would accurately describe them. And since a womb isn't required for a baby, there's not necessarily any "mother" (nor "father") in that scenario.
That said, I think the argument is "mainboard is better than motherboard for the same reason that denylist is better than blacklist -- the whole point is so that people don't have to be reminded of social issues whenever the word comes up in discussion."
Is there not still an egg supplier and a sperm supplier?
If nothing else, maybe we should revisit the language as a whole and its obsession with overloaded homonyms.
/rant
It seems like people who object to motherboard don't understand analogy?
The problem is that you had a motherboard and daughter boards, those were the accepted terms, and never fatherboard or son boards, never parentboard or child boards. Why were they gendered female in the first place?
Because they had “female connections,” which is to say their use is in plugging pins into their sockets.
Obviously that is a sexual analogy that did not age particularly well, this idea that a motherboard is the motherboard because you shove stuff into it. So people started replacing with mainboard because it makes more sense...
well, for this context, it's called a "motherboard" because "mainboard" was already a thing. Motherboard was to distinguish at the time how this new board can be expanded upon by plugging in ports. There was no real malice here, it was just fancy marketing term that stuck.
Ultimately, we're humans and we try to anthropize all kinds of things in life to make them "feel relatable", be it animals, boats, hurricanes, or yes, computer. so that extends to our language as well. Especially in marketing where the goal is to make customers feel good and close the sale. There may be a conversation on WHY we do this, but starting that conversation on the foot of "well people just want to be sexist" won't get us anywhere.
> "Avoid referring to people in divisive ways. For example, instead of referring to people as native speakers or non-native speakers of English, consider whether your document needs to discuss this at all"
https://developers.google.com/style/inclusive-documentation#...
Your claim is somehow going a little viral. You have a responsibility to try to correct it.
And to those who say this is not inclusive to the colorblind, I say traffic lights
But I think we can agree that the goal when choosing these names isn’t really being concise and easy to use
Retarded differential equations (RDEs) are differential equations having retarded arguments.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037704270...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_energy_levels
And for those who would like to change this, any change to a pilot's routine has a chance of being the thing that pushes an incident over the edge into a crash. Would it be worth it?
I'm not saying this is a large set of people. But it looks like some of them have power at github.
I guess if you're doing software for the airline industry you cannot use github.
Well, honestly I wouldn't use github for anything if money depended on it, because of their record of "firing" customers who don't toe the line on their exact politics.
[1] I'm quoting training material that even passed HR review in corporate education DEI here. It's not hyperbole.
`main` is better. It's shorter, it's more descriptive, and costs nothing to remove something someone might find offensive.
It's pretty much an all around win.
"Why does my git say main and not master? Did I break it?"
"Why cant I push to master like the 100x tutorials show? I get errors!"
Also if your tutorials are using a base repository to work from, then you can still have the branch "master" it's just not default. So your existing repos should still work. And if you changed your repo then you should be responsible for updating your documentation to reflect that. It's just good practice.
I struggle to come up with any two terms that make this more clear than "master" and "slave". Just because we've abolished chattel slavery, doesn't mean we should avoid the very words themselves when they are appropriate. Destruction of meaning is far worse than some abstract offense that doesn't seem reasonable to take on behalf of a computer process.
Don't tell me you're still using bare pointers, `new` and `delete` in your C++ classes instead of using smart_ptr fields, or explicitly declaring local variable types instead of using `auto`...
In reality each change that requires updates to documentation (or code) is of course not actually zero cost.
Adapt or die is the motto out here.
This is pretty much the view of the left now :p
See how this works? It is also definitely not without cost. It is not free to change all of your documentation and you will inevitably have to be exposed to it anyway because not everyone will have changed it, so it's ultimately not doing anything anyway.
The communication cost of the change is not free. Do you think the internal wiki and new-hire git training materials all updated themselves?
It wasn't a large process change. Most of our git users are competent git users. But I billed hours dealing with it.
I still have people here who haven't touched a repository that uses "main" instead of "master". They have better things to do with their lives than lurk social media focused on programming. They don't know yet. Eventually they'll pull something with "main" instead of "master". Can I get your phone number so you can be the one to explain to them?
But a master copy or version of something like a master recording or gold master for pressing records is different from merely "main".
Applied to software they are similar but not identical concepts, and neither is in any way wrong or harmful to anyone.
It's a small enough issue that it's not worth fighting very hard over, but, the rationale for the change, and especially for anyone trying to tell anyone else they have to do that change, is still invalid and the word master actually applies better if that's how you're using that branch. It has nothing to do with slave bosses.
Here you go…
> costs nothing to remove something someone might offensive
It might break scripts, aliases, and any general automation (CI, etc) with a baked in main branch assumption
All of these are true! I agree, "main" is a better name.
However, as to the larger point, the individuals and groups advocating for these changes also don't advocate for similar changes (that is, things that have good benefits but come with a very high cost to implement due to breaking backwards compatibility) around technologies/terms that they don't consider to be "problematic".
That strongly suggests that the driver isn't to improve technology, it's to shape language, with occasional incidental technological benefits - and the ignored technological regressions (it's harder to say "allowlist" than "whitelist", for instance, or to write applications that have a field to place in the user's preferred pronouns than just not address the user using pronouns at all).
I actually know a social-justice oriented trans woman online who strongly advocates for the use of Tau instead of Pi because it is simpler and easier to learn. So sample of 1 there.
Tau vs Pi is a perfect microcosm of this debate with the social justice arguments removed. See also metric vs imperial.
The benefits are small but non-zero and localized to a handful of people, the new terminology is substantially simpler and cleaner, and the costs are primarily related to inertia and the comfort of people experienced with The Old Way.
But there is a cost. You're losing a battle in the war of free speech vs Orwellian thought control.
The woke (an offshoot of last-wave feminism, currently promoted mainly by the control-left strain of the Democratic party) are lying; they're not actually offended, they're just using that as an excuse (propaganda) and as an emotional appeal, to get you to agree to their arguments, and cede power to them. This is most obvious with "Latinx" which is pushed by white journalists & activists but which isn't even supported by the overwhelming majority of Latinos and Latinas in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx
Don't believe me? Listen to what they (the woke) say themselves!
> I wanted to start by focusing on the obvious one, Its harder for them to object to just one to start with, then once they admit the logic, we can expand the list
from https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=4450
That phrase is going to die soon and it never picked up in Latin America. Most likely the queer community in Latin America will come up with more effective slang. It took the US queer community decades, a century? To reclaim and come up with effective phrases -- I think the main issue here is lack of patience and a somewhat condescending attitude from American liberals that we, the actual hispanic diaspora, need our hands held.
There is also what I've argued is a hierarchy of needs issue at play with LatinX. The problems facing the queer community in Latin America are more severe than those facing the US community, because it is a younger community in a more conservative atmosphere. Therefore, the effort is better spent advocating for table stakes, like marriage equality in some countries and reduced violence towards queer people -- there is no time to be wasted, right now, on the exact, precise terminology to use. And LatinX is not a way to win hearts and minds in this process.
Edit: this is NOT support for Google's product, which clearly broken and not useful. This is an explanation of why LatinX specifically is not a good counter-example to `main` versus `master`. I hope this pre-empts someone coming in and calling me all 'woke' or whatever is the cool phrase for dismissing people these days.
The fact the term is dying further reinforces my point: it failed. No power gained. Does optionally calling master 'main' give people power? Do you really believe that? As far as I can tell, the 'wokes' you are so afraid of seem to be failing pretty often recently. If I believed in the existence of the 'woke' monster under my bed, and they had this track record, I would simply ignore them.
Did 'wokeism' stop Disney from losing its special tax status in Florida? No.
Did 'wokeism' stop Texas from passing laws restricting transgender students and their families? No.
Did 'wokeism' stop the abortion bounty laws from passing in Texas? No.
Has 'wokeism' prevented the recent book bannings across the US; for example, the recent banning of math books in Florida? No.
Was 'wokeism', the root of this Orwellian system you propose will engulf us, the reason why state government in Florida censored the phrase 'climate change' in state congress? I would be very surprised.
Who exactly is gaining or losing power here? And why are you so adamant that the culture war will somehow involve GitHub?
I simply cannot wrap my head around it all.
Since you suggest it “costs nothing to remove something someone might find offensive”, I propose it be changed to something else instead of main.
\s
As far as "uncomfortable connotations", would you agree that that's a subjective claim?
I don't like that forced slavery is a thing, but I'm capable of handling context-specific word meanings, and of not getting emotional due to alternative meanings.
Why? I think that slavery is bad only if the slaves are people. I want machines to be my slaves! (non-sentient machines only, dear future AI overlords!)
Are we going to remove "duplicate" because we can somehow imagine that genetically identical twins are offended by this?
Are we going to remove "admittance" (inverse of impedance) because people will be uncomfortable when reminded that they weren't admitted to their first choice institution?
These are all equally ridiculous to the master/slave debacle.
Your use of the word is violence.
/s?
If it's really the case that the vast majority of employees are feeling stifled by the company policy, isn't that a situation where forming a trade union could help?
The irony of workers rising up against oppressive supposedly left-wing rule is not lost on me, especially if it were to occur in Google's office in Poland.
> A transcribed interview of neo-Nazi and former Klan leader David Duke—in which he uses the N-word and talks about hunting Black people—gets no notes.
Edit: Also interesting that this comment is dropping like a stone in HN's comment ranking, even though currently the comment score is at 1. If I accidentally triggered some anti-flame or anti-profanity filter, I'm sorry.
The feature only seems to trigger when it has a suggestion. I can't imagine what suggestion would be suitable to replace the n word.
Comment order is a function of both score and age. As far as anybody (except those who actually have access to the source), there's no other "hidden" mechanic.
For that role, there's no need to include the n-word, because nobody is going to accidentally put that in a press release.
(Of course, the lists were apparently compiled by total dorks who put in things like "terminate", "dummy variable", and "native". But the list being dumb is a separate issue from it from what you raise).
Or is the idea to just erase the very concept of gender from the world? Welcome to OkCupid, I am a [PERSON] seeking [PERSON]
I want out of this timeline
I have zero problems with people dressing however they like, having whatever affectations they want and having sex with whoever is willing. I might not always find it tasteful, but that cuts both ways I'm sure so we can agree to be civil. The buck stops when you try to shame me for not calling a man a woman. Using pronouns should be a kindness like holding the door open for a disabled person, not something that sends emotional children into a socially supported temper tantrum when absent.
The "men with gender identity issues" referred to by parent have this up-side-down, instead thinking that "social transitioning" aka "living as a woman" is a step towards being a woman, this is not destroying notions of gender, this is elevating gender over sex
That would be nice, but you have it backwards. In most cases the an attempt to make gender more central and essential, rather than less, by decoupling it from biology.
Which is why in some parts of the country children are sometimes being told that if they like boy sterotyped activities like tree climbing or boy stereotyped attire that you are a boy, rather than saying any activity or attire is available to anyone.
Rather than erasing gender it's power as a tool for enforced conformity is amplified by eliminating any requirement for agreement with a person's biological properties.
To exaggerate in order to make the point, it's as if we've gone from: "It's a womans' job to do the dishes" to "Anyone can do the dishes." to "The person doing the dishes is a woman, by definition."-- and the middle state's inclusiveness is increasingly seen as hateful because it denies people the ability to identify as a gender other than the one suggested by their biology through the performance of stereotyped behavior.
Erasure of "mothers" seems contrary to the trend at first blush, but it's made more clear when you see the suggested replacements like "birthing person" or "breeder"-- in this world view "mother" is a biological function, so it must be decoupled from gender so that the strongest possible gender sterotypes can be imposed on people regardless of their biological abilities.
For example, I don't think that anybody actually holds the sentence "The person doing the dishes is a woman, by definition" as true in their heads. That's simply not a thing people believe, anywhere along the political (or any other) spectrum.
If you actually talk to trans people, you'll find that most of them fall into the "nonconforming" bucket rather than some gender essentialist one. A lot of them are non-binary or otherwise have gender/sex identities that don't cleanly map onto maleness or femaleness. Given that state of affairs, it's a remarkable stretch to think that these people themselves would see neutral language as "hateful." And, in fact, they don't.
We'll promise them they can be a boy. They do all the things boys can: can play on the boys sports teams, use the boys lockers and bathrooms... And all the meanwhile we're banishing gendered extracurricular programs and making the bathrooms unisex.
We promise them we'll help them find their identity in gender, and destroy gender in the process.
About the cultural aspect of gender: this video opened my eyes about what most people think it means to do things 'like a girl', and what it actually is supposed to mean.
https://youtu.be/XjJQBjWYDTs
Wouldn't it be equally problematic if they banned are male words and allowed all female words? If you're going for it, removing gender (from computer terminology) seems consistent. No one is saying to remove it from the world, but mainboard is just as if not more descriptive (to someone who isn't familiar with the word to start with), and things like allowlist/blocklist are much more self-descriptive than whitelist/blacklist.
It would be interesting to call landlord as landperson.
To discourage the term as an analogy for things that are a universal source is to demote women and their role as mothers.
I'd like to know who at Google puts these lists together and what judge decreed their viewpoint on this more valid than mine or anyone else's, since apparently Google feels that from this judgement they have the right to shape speech for millions of people and therefore, by extension, our culture.
But also, on MLK and postmodernism: postmodernism dates back to the 1940s, To Kill a Mockingbird is postmodern. MLK's Letter From a Birmingham Jail is very clearly postmodern (e.g. when he says "But I am sorry that your statement did not express a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being.", he's alluding to a failure to consider the viewpoint of the oppressed in the situation).
That letter is also very modern-leftist. Kimberle Crenshaw coined the term "intersectionality" in 1989 and elaborated on it in 1991, saying "When feminism does not explicitly oppose racism, and when anti-racism does not incorporate oppposition to patriarchy race and gender politics often end up being antagonistic to each other, and both interests lose". The letter from a Birmingham jail includes another famous line from MLK: " Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly". To me, those express similar sentiments: that oppression exists in many forms in many places, and it is unwise to pretend that oppression that fails to inconvenience me is therefore unworthy of my attention.
And of course he says later on "there is a type of constructive nonviolent tension that is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must see the need of having nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men to rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. " which to me describes the people often criticized as "modern far leftists", those people who create the tension and discomfort in society are, in MLK's view, doing us, collectively, a great service.
I'd recommend you read the whole letter[0]. If you're so willing to lionize MLK, but disagree with so much of what he preached, I implore you to consider why exactly that is.
[0]: https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-...
It seems you're engaging in a straw man fallacy saying that we don't need to do anything because we're all eventually accountable in front of God. Islam never said that. Several texts and accounts explicitly call out racism as a sin.
CRT is a fringe offshoot that swings the pendulum so far out, it goes back to being racist, ironically enough. It is not the beacon of equality that its supporters claim it is.
I agree, I never claimed Islam said that. I claim you said that, which misrepresents Islam!
> CRT is a fringe offshoot that swings the pendulum so far out, it goes back to being racist, ironically enough.
What about CRT does this? The core idea of CRT (as you use it) is, I think the recognition that inequality exists, that some people mistreat others and that we should recognize that when it happens. What about that is racist?
Where did I say that?
> What about that is racist?
CRT, and many other far leftist ideologies conform to what we say in Arabic: "A word (claim) of truth by which falsehood is intended"[1]. We see the same with movements like BLM (with self proclaimed Marxist founders), etc. They're crafted in such a way that if you argue against their actual behavior or criticize their actual behavior, they are able to retort with their canned response: ah so you're against justice/equality/are racist/etc.
These approaches are trite and people are waking up to them. We've known for millenia that inequality exists or the people are prone to mistreating others. CRT/latest fad of the day is not telling us anything new with that regard, but behind the scenes they're power grab movements.
[1] كلمة حق يراد بها باطل
> CRT/latest fad of the day is not telling us anything new
I disagree. The CRT (again, insofar as it is a cultural thing that people argue against) functionally says that people who have power should account for the mistreatment and inequality when making decisions. This is problematic to some people.
Apparently, this is what's being taught now: https://i.redd.it/vwuw7529iws81.jpg. Just an oversimplification, and dumbing down of any conversation. It's no wonder those people have built a reputation for being impulsive and not being able to take any criticism, retorting to crying and making fusses when they can't defend their positions.
This is incorrect.
> Everything is painted in terms of "white supremacy", and it's honestly getting tiring and trite
Ah, so it's getting tiring to see people discuss race and its impact? That's exactly the kind of reaction MLK was criticizing ;)
> Just an oversimplification, and dumbing down of any conversation.
Well yes, it's a children's book. Do you think it's a problem that discussions of the solar system or geology are oversimplified when explained to children? You're not even claiming it's wrong (perhaps because, fundamentally, it isn't).
It is more of a natural outcome of silly corporatists not really understanding why leftists and progressives object to things, and so just reflexively avoiding anything that could be, however tenuously, linked to gender. They are concern trolling themselves.
That's how I understand their thinking, at least.
I agree with you and think anyone who is offended by motherboard is silly. I'm sure it was never even anyone that was actually offended, but a group of people sitting down and looking at any and every word that has any type of gender connotation and saying that's a bad thing.
Think of that what you will.
I wish there was more pushback against this insanity. I've also seen people want to erase the word "blindspot" from the dictionary... Even though I'm sure no blind person was ever offended by it, because that word typically is used to refer to the limits of people who aren't blind.
For what it's worth, in support of the original comment's claim, I just dug around the Pixelbook documentation all over the place and I can't find any mention of the motherboard. But it doesn't seem they renamed it to "mainboard" or "birthing person board." They just dropped it from the specification completely and don't tell you anything about what kind of motherboard you're getting.
https://www.techopedia.com/definition/6772/daughterboard
[1965 Wireless World July 49/2 (advt.) Contact tail variations..include..tails for direct mounting to a ‘mother’ printed circuit board.] 1965 Electronics 6 Sept. 36/1 Nine daughterboards, each carrying 30 circuit packages, go on each side of a motherboard.
However, that's just an analogy: it doesn't actually tell you anything about what the motherboard does or why. In that sense, I think mainboard is actually a bit more descriptive: it's the principal interconnect between all of the device's parts.
The thing is, all nouns in French are gendered, and carte (board) happens to be female. So it can only be a mother, and not a father board. And the reason is that it carries smaller boards, like a mom would carry her babies (in most mammal species, as far as I know, the mom is carrying babies even after birth).
A disque (disk) is male. But a floppy disk translate to "disquette" (small disk) which is female : le disque, la disquette. Don't ask me why, but that's who the language works.
This would drive Silicon Valley wokes completely nuts. The table is female, the cloud is male (note that, in Italian, clouds are female). The TV is female, the glass is male, the door is female, the handle is female, the window is female, the roof is male, the wall is male.
Their role as breeders and birthing people, you mean. Time for a trip to HR for you.
> they have the right to shape speech for millions of people and therefore,
Google', "Do the right thing" could be understood as "if you have the power to do something, you have the obligation to do so". I'd say someone forgot that most evil in the world is done by people convinced that they're doing the right thing, but if that were forgotten the old motto wouldn't have been an impediment.
You could ask what idiot gave google this power, but the answer-- to the extent that they have it-- is each and every one of us. Fortunately, it lasts only as long as we keep giving it to them.
Anyhow, you might find it awkward, but the general assumption that "parent" is synonymous with "mother" to the exclusion of all other kinds of parents does real damage to inclusiveness, and the term "motherboard" flows from that.
I know your tongue is in cheek, but the mainboard may be considered a parent of the components, but it is not giving birth to them. "Parent" fits better than "mother". So your absurdist counter-argument doesn't really fit here.
We're programmers. We refactor mercilessly. Why shouldn't language be refactored mercilessly too? The term "mainboard" is available, widely understood, and well-adopted, so why not use that?
Because we don't want to keep handing out stupid prizes to the weenies that constantly force us to play these stupid games. Every time they win they're further emboldened, and that's not a good thing, since there are actual problems to solve.
https://developers.google.com/style/word-list
You're supposed to use "plug" and "socket" instead.
One old convention, mostly originating with radio-frequency connectors, is that the gender of the connector is the gender of its innermost contact. Thus, the plug of the common 2.5" and 2.1" connector of power supplies is technically female because the inner contact is a hole. The socket on the appliance has a pin in the middle and is technically male. When you try to buy one, half the time the part is labelled as male and the other half it is labelled as female.
But there is no problem bad enough that cannot be made worse by government. Years ago some US regulator didn't like the fact that people were plugging big radio antennas into wifi equipment, so they invented the "reverse-polarity" connector. What used to be a "SMA male" connector with a pin in the middle now is a "RP SMA male" connector with a hole in the middle. Here is a random link with a picture: http://cablesondemandblog.com/wordpress1/2014/05/05/reverse_... If you order this kind of connectors, now you have a 25% chance of getting what you need. One RP SMA male and a SMA female will mate together but not propagate any signals.
> hang, hung
> Don't use to refer to a computer or system that is not responding [..] see Avoid unnecessarily violent language.
Here's a female plug https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-125-Volt-3-Wire-C...
Here's a male socket https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/10A-250V-AC-Male-Powe...
Should it have been renamed to birthing-person-board? What a joke
Not something I feel super strongly about, but the fact that it's so scary to go against these stupid ideas is annoying. It's pure politics, there's nobody benefiting from this except the people claiming impact for antiracist work in their perf.
This isn't remotely limited to Google. My company does this too. I've heard of others making similar changes.
Are these kinds of arbitrary changes to language usage silly and pointless? Maybe. But tough love here: languages change in arbitrary and pointless ways constantly. They always have. They always will. Your own common usages and idioms would seem outrageously weird to your grandparents. People had these same fights in the 60's, also 80's, and 50's... The 40's too now that I think of it...
To wit: we aren't getting oppressed here, we're just getting old. And the attempt to turn it into a political fight (on both sides) is largely just a reaction to the friction. It's not the cause.
I mean, really. Is "mainboard" such a hardship? It's not even a new word, it's two bytes and one syllable shorter. Must this be a fight?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31086310&p=3#31087238
It's frantic activity to avoid looking in the mirror. Making themselves busy fixing something massive and intractable to avoid having to think about the actionable items closer to home.
/s
Even if there was some natural physical law that guaranteed that oppressive nations would eventually be overthrown/atrophy, there's definitely nothing that puts a bound on how long that will take.
And, as we've seen with Ukraine, war can break out more quickly than any of us think.
(also, if the social justice warriors in the West have their way, the US government itself would be overthrown and replaced with its own, authoritarian, but ineffective regime, long before a conflict with China would occur)
The summer of 2020 was a great preview of what this dictatorship will look like once the USD collapses in value another 30-40%. Burning buildings and more statues of "heroes" like George Floyd, who stood up to White Supremacy. Remember, removing "master" from git repos was done because of the legacy of slavery in the United States.
Chinese have far bigger and far more strict word list bans.
In US, you need to say “people who menstruate” and “land owning person”; in China you will just just disappear if you say a wrong thing against the regime.
but the argument “I wish I was in China and I didn’t have to be careful what I say in public!” is so laughable if you have actually been in China or interacted with mainland Chinese
People hours
It's like, yes, we know some over paid highly educated technologists are biased against but that doesn't equal the end of liberalism and democracy itself. His words are not at all going to sway any of the HN readers who may agree with him on cultural issues about the west, that Russia are the good guys!
Perhaps his words are meant to developing nations who are uniformly culturally conservative?
Is this really true? I always thought I might eventually apply to work at Google someday, but I hadn't heard there was such aggressive internal thought policing.
I try to be somewhat reasonable. I can stretch my mind enough to see the complaint with blacklist at least. But mother being offensive...my mind isn't able to stretch that far unless I'm missing something.
If I'm writing about a ship and refer to it as a "she", does that set off the autoinquisitor?
https://mashable.com/article/google-youtube-women-in-tech-di...
To push the Clippy thing further, Bill Gates once gave us "content is king". Google's Woke Clippy needs to learn that "context is king" - but it can't ever do that with language; well, not without a general AI.
eww. This has the same vibes as someone saying "I want to breed with them". Like sure, it's grammatically correct, but you're gonna come off as a creep at best and some weird fetishist at worst.
No more "motherboard" and "daughterboard?" Sounds like Google has found yet another way to marginalize women.
Pay 'em less. Then pretend they don't exist.
Way to go, Diversity Champions!
The people vouching for this at Google are likely product marketing managers, public relations folks, social media managers, etc. All they do is write corporate garbage all day, and much like we have "nit"s in PR's for formatting, variable names, etc; they likely have similar reviews that get flagged for "non-inclusive language" or whatever this is. So they have brilliant idea: the Code people use auto linters/formatters that we enable by default (hey gofmt) and everyone loves it, how about we do the same for the Prose people!
Basically: "All I write is corporate garbage, and all the writing I consume is corporate garbage, and all my coworkers only write corporate garbage, therefore everyone would love a corporate garbage-ifyer!"
For example, if my english-as-a-second-language eastern European subordinates feel self-conscious about their english, they might find an automated tool helpful - where a professional journalist would be better served by their own judgement.
The 'inclusive language' thing is just weird though.
The problem for me is particularly that the combination of monopolies combined with AI that will learn from data largely filtered by those monopolies will generate some questionable gradients. So, yes, this might ultimately change language very quickly without much of human discourse over it. This will lead to language with less variation and arguably to a world that does not encourage variation and will be in effect less inclusive.
I appreciate you adding to the conversation.
However, the net result is that words are driven out of the language even if everyone involved in the document wouldn't care.
No one uses "fuck" in corporate communication either. Is anyone worried about that word being "driven out of the language"? I don't think corporate speech is as influential in overall language use as you are implying.
Swear words are specifically used to be provocative, so naturally they're not going to disappear. Words like "motherboard" or "whitelist" were historically neutral and primarily used in professional settings, so removal from corporate speech is correspondingly a much bigger factor.
To be clear, I'm not particularly worried or concerned about this. I don't consider it any great loss if we start saying "allowlist" and have happily changed my projects to match. It's not a big deal, and the kind thing to do is to go along with those who do care a lot.
Enabling bullies in their social dominance games isn’t being kind.
The classic mistake that Pascal and everyone using his argument to argue for their favorite God lies in the simplifying assumption :
- Compliance is cheap, low-risk and fixed-cost relative to taking a stand
Which gets less and less true as the Wrathful God (or His spokespeople) sees you're completely submitting and realizes they can continue making more and more increasingly humiliating demands. Soon enough, you discover you wish you had drawn the red line earlier.
― George Carlin, When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?
https://areomagazine.com/2019/04/02/the-tyranny-of-the-minor...
Not being tolerant here is a pretty clear sign of close mindedness in reality or just a hint of lacking life experience.
It's like, of _course_ early peoples created concepts from "day, when it's light" and "night, when it's dark". It has nothing to do with skin colour or ethnicity at all.
Anyway, that's what scares me about this, I like language naturally evolving like it is in the above example, to address a specific communication need. I'm really not a fan of some remarkably privileged people using an insanely powerful company to coerce my language in whatever direction they see fit.
Adding quotes to "badass" turns up (on the first page) a mechanics job posted in January, four hits for the same CNA job from over a month ago, and one hit for an administrative job, posted this month.
That doesn't seem like a lot of postings, certainly not enough to be considered an outlier.
Of course to verify that I'd have to do fifty Google searches and chart the data, which I don't really want to do...
I think you should, though, so next time you make such a dubious claim, you have the data to back it up. :)
You're at Google. You need to do some kind of project that can be called a success -- within one quarter. What do you do?
One possibility, the disastrous effects of which we've seen, is to build Yet Another Incompatible Chat App.
This is another possibility. A very safe one, in a way.
You constantly have to demonstrate that you are "useful, self-directed, and doing important things", in an environment where usefulness and importance are extremely hard to judge, and so become very socially-constructed. It can get pretty brutal -- even if, when you step back and take the long view, it all seems ridiculous.
So when you look at what comes out of these companies, it's useful to remember that. Imagine the horrible games in which their employees have found themselves trapped.
(Money's a hell of a thing. Shame you seem to need so much of it.)
It's bad writing for the reader. But lots of writing isn't actually for clear communication. Especially when the government is involved.
"The United States had maintained neutrality until 1941. However, it was attacked at Pearl Harbor, and then chose to enter the war."
I'd say active is still better here.
surely not? even a newspaper should be striving for an active voice, at least anytime the actor is known!
As an enterprise feature, enterprises would interested in this because they wouldn't want their employees communications to get them cancelled or put on woke twitter. Despite their writing style guide[1] being a bit too woke for my liking i'm sure some people find it a good reference, especially if they don't have capacity to create their own corporate guide.
[1]https://developers.google.com/style/word-list
I'm putting aside intentionally and just curious about how this actually encourages empathy?
Not hiring union-busting consultants to convince employees to not join a union against their best interests.
I don't understand what you are referring to when you say "this"; what is "this"? Are you referring to a specific statement by the parent poster, or something described in the OP?
I also don't understand whether the double-negative is intentional (and meant to cancel itself out, and become a positive), or if it is a colloquialism.
I do think there is more activism at play than you might. At a minimum it provides the fear mechanism that prevents employees from challenging the work, particularly if they aren't even on the project (why stick your neck out?).
However, the code format for prose analogy illuminates the writing quality angle brilliantly.
I'm sure I'm not alone in having distinct communication modes in work documents, each with their own reasons to be excluded from the ML dataset:
1. Keep it simple -- when achieved it is highly effective for communicating a work memo, but would be terribly dry if used in auto suggestions for an English major struggling through crafting moving prose.
2. Lazily verbose -- going long is more expedient than crafting a compact message. It's mostly unrefined garbage. (exhibit a this comment)
3. Everything is awesome (positivity inflation) -- a deluge of great, love, awesome, wonderful, perfect, etc. all applied to far too many things, far too often.
Imagine if an ML code formatter included psudeo code inputs, or was given a data set of every local file change (pre-commit) instead of what is sitting in a main branch? My Docs are filled with things that I'd never commit much less pass a code review.
If Google Docs was only used in corporate settings, and we wanted to double down on our drab corporate communication styles, I guess the feature would make some sense.
I said motherboard all the time in meetings and chats, never had any pushback. TBH if I did get pushback on that one, I'd bring it to HR and say the pushback was affecting my ability to get work down.
And yes, those teams really did come up with their determinations of what was OK and what wasn't, based on their own beliefs. That made that quite clear in their repeated, stupid posts on memegen.
It ain't exactly the hottest, edgiest shitposting club out there.
I think those types of people are even more likely to end up as paid content moderators, since the work tends to be too tedious for most average people to deal with.
I love that you were courageous enough to say this because this is completely true and also why we say #ACAB. Most people who want to be police officers are absolutely unfit to be police officers!
There probably isn't any job which is an exception to this, politicians are similarly mainly people who want the associated influence and even engineers become engineers so they have control over engineering. It's just that the incentives are more perverse with politicians, police and moderators than with engineers.
From what I understand from rumors in the area, is those who couldn't become police (for whatever reason) would then go apply at the prison, and those who couldn't get a job there (and it appears they take anyone with a pulse) would go work for TSA.
Perhaps the "public servant" idea should be taken to a larger extreme, and some positions picked by lottery instead.
Sounds preposterous, but is not. I had a boss around 2000 who believed wholeheartedly that people brought from Africa to the United States were the only slaves that ever existed in history anywhere on Earth.
This came up because someone noted in passing conversation that an anniversary was coming up related to the Atlantic slave trade in the 1600's, and my boss insisted that there couldn't have been slavery before 1776, because slavery was started by the United States.
I walked out of the break room early in the conversation and decided to let the others handle it. She was my boss, and I would have gotten fired for contradicting her.
https://www.britannica.com/summary/Transatlantic-Slave-Trade...
Peak transatlantic: 78,000 new slaves per year.
https://thecurrentmsu.com/2021/01/24/prison-labor-americas-s...
Current US forced prison labor population: 1-2.1 million.
Similarly, if there was political consensus that US companies shouldn't own or hire slaves overseas, then the bit starting with "within" would be easy to remove as well.
None of this has had any chance of happening since the thirteenth amendment was passed (not even during BLM). It's pretty clear that a big chunk of the US's leaders are pro-slavery.
When one has a essentially complete control over another person's life, there are ways to make this life hell, even while staying within the legal bounds.
A few things to consider:
- A disproportionate number of prisoners are African American, and that subset are mostly in prison for crimes that whites simply don't go to prison for (e.g., pot, or coke vs. crack).
- US prisoners aren't given nutritionally adequate food for free. They have to buy that at inflated prices from the prison. Once they blow through any savings, their only option (other than malnutrition) is to work for wages that would be illegally low outside of prison.
- As during the transatlantic trade, it is straightforward to buy your way out of forced prison labor.
- A growing fraction of prisoners consider the current system to be eugenics as well as slavery. The prisons take the majority of men while they are at prime child rearing age. It's well known that any that do manage to have kids will probably be forced into a situation where they can't adequately care for those children (dad goes to prison for driving while black or whatever), making the next generation easy targets for the same scheme. (This is coming from current prisoners, not me.)
The other pushback against my comment boils down to "it's legal, so we don't use that word". Similar arguments were made in defense of the transatlantic trade. For instance, black Africans were generally the ones selling slaves, and often used real or imagined criminal records as an excuse. Any objective comparison of the two systems would find that the transatlantic slave trade was roughly as immoral California's three strike law is in practice. You could argue the slave trade was worse because the kids were automatically slaves. In the current system, they're only probably going to prison, but the prisons also aren't paying to raise them.
I suggest reading Things Fall Apart if you're unfamiliar with the African side of the slave trade.
I appreciate what you're saying, but my point is actually that the US view is that "slavery has been abolished for 150 years" makes for a very US-centric view of history. Which for a 250 year old country is laughably closed minded both backwards and forwards in time.
The context of what I said is the parent comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31124042), specifically related to the US-centricism of the retold statement of "slavery was started by the United States".
The story of the world is not that slavery was created for the process of building the US as a powerful nation, and then abolished and now only dealing with the fallout and reparations. But I've heard this understanding many times in the US, to the point where it seems like the mainstream understanding there.
And get Damore'd?
It turns out American companies are not the Athenian Lyceum, and some topics are not up for debate.
What? Absolutely not. That is terrible advice when it comes to something that couldn't have been a literal accident. If he'd used the word "mother", then sure-- that could be apologized for. But a protracted essay on population level statistical differences between genders and its impact on the employment pool? Not a chance.
There is so much noise and outright disinformation about any issue that often the only reliable source for wrong doing is when the target of an accusation admits it themselves.
And even when that fails to protect you, at least you can be a hero to someone. Do you think a damore that apologized and said he was mistaken would be more employable? That people would eventually see it as a youthful transgression? I doubt it greatly-- it's not like the screens that show up when you google his name will yellow with age. Instead he'd just be the enemy to both factions of the war he wandered into, rather than enemy of one and hero to the other.
Sometimes, but doesn't apply here; the entire kerfluffle happened on an internal-public message-board. There was a paper-trail a mile long.
> Do you think a damore that apologized and said he was mistaken would be more employable?
Absolutely. Google management was very willing to give him a second chance. His mistake was basically tactless following of the existing corporate culture of internal openness, and they recognized that. Unfortunately, he did basically everything in his power to make retaining him as unpalatable as possible, claiming repeatedly the science was on his side and people shouldn't be afraid to debate science. Like I said: walking Title VII violation. You can debate the science all you want, but not as an employee in an American corporation that also has project authority.
In essence, he dared Google to either go up against the Civil Rights Act or admit they were hypocritical about their internal culture. They resolved the issue by removing the irritant (and the corporate culture took a hit too, as people realized in general that a liberal interpretation of it was incompatible with the Civil Rights Act. You can't just say whatever internally).
Compare with Facebook still employing the guy who did an A/B test on whether emotional tone of stories make people sad. Once he realized why that was a problem, he owned up to it and is still doing research at Facebook.
> rather than enemy of one and hero to the other.
Meh. Check his Twitter these days and he's not really their hero; the Right lost interest in him when the labor relations board ruled his firing was legal (they don't want to make a headlong run into the Civil Rights Act either... it protects most voters, so it's very popular).
... and besides, sometimes being hero to none is the most dignified course of action. I can name several historical figures who made the choice to join a faction as a hero at the mere cost of spending their finite lives serving actual evil.
One thing that keeps me in check is that, I assume, the feeling is mutual. I'm guessing that in both camps there are people who have trouble believing that the other side is arguing/acting in good faith, because their position is so obviously ludicrous.
"1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things."
2 really was just me being unimpressed generally. For some reason I didn't think much of the ipad...
Now I'm old and everything is amazing.
I am applying that dismissiveness to all objections equally based off their motivation. I don't agree with the argument on either side of the "motherboard/mainboard" debate. But I can emphasize with the motivation of the side pushing for "mainboard" because it is the same as your argument about misusing "gay" being unnaceptable. I disagree with their specific objection but I understand the motivation. I don't understand the side pushing for "motherboard" because the heart of the objection seems to be "things were better when I was young". Presented with those two options, why not side with the people who you would side with if we were arguing over a different word such as "gay"?
The reason I push against "mainboard" is, I think, the analogous concern. While it's possible in principle to type out the letters "mainboard" without meaning anything by it, in practice the people who say it are motivated by a package of ideas about gender which I think are bad and would be harmful for society if they were more broadly adopted. To say "mainboard" would make me appear to be endorsing those ideas.
I would argue this is a symptom of the same phenomenon and therefore the heart of the objection is still the same.
I also live in the rural Midwest, so I figured that was about how far in the past you on the coast think we are with this sort of thing - and you'd be right, to an extent.
I wouldn't have believed you that there are people like this, but a few minutes after i read your comment, i saw replies (requires showdead) to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31123102 that said men cannot be discrimated against...
As a Russian, this is amusing to read. For me and most people I know, when you meet a black person, it's totally normal to ask them "where are you from" because they can't possibly be local. Our society just doesn't have the concept of racism it seems because of the exceeding rarity of people who aren't European or Asian.
People in Russia are often discriminated against based on their sexual orientation, political views, and nationality though.
"Slave is an Ephebian word. In Om we have no word for slave," said Vorbis.
"So I understand," said the Tyrant. "I imagine that fish have no word for water."
-- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
We do have a word for racism by the way. It's, unsurprisingly, "расизм".
I've never been to Russia, but I'm finding it hard to believe racism doesn't exist there.
I suspect you are overlooking some pretty pervasive discrimination against minority groups because you have become accustomed to it, and/or because you aren't personally affected by it. While racism in Russia appears to have been improving over the last decade or so, it is hardly absent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia
Anyone who thinks otherwise: go out and talk to ethnically Asian people more. (For an outsider, keep in mind that anywhere in Russian Siberia there are very large indigenous Asian populations in proportion to total.)
My Asian friends are routinely discriminated against purely based on their appearance: subject to searches at subway entrances, subject to disdainful attitude by government officials, salespeople and other citizens. They will have trouble renting flats, etc.
This is significantly worse in western parts of Russia (where you can be targeted by gangs and skinheads), but is still present in their part of the country.
And it is those who were lucky to have gone to good schools and speak perfect Russian. Things are dimmer for someone who has a stronger accent.
Most of my Asian friends never talk about it, but one did, after which I started making observations and reevaluating past ones and recognized that it is very much true.
Those of middle eastern ethnicities (often immigrants and their descendants) have likely even harder time.
Yeah, I had my doubts too. The Wikipedia article claims that racist attacks have been on the decline, and supports that claim with some statistics from the SOVA Center. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if that were simply because those attacks have become so commonplace that they aren't reported at all, or that reports are being actively suppressed.
Yes. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31126173
> Either way, people here aren't discriminated based on their race. Never were.
That is untrue.
You could argue the “pale of settlement” (instituted shortly after the annexation of parts of Poland made Jews more than a rounding error) was discrimination based on religion, not ancestry (and indeed it seems to have had some resemblance to the suppression of Old Rite communities, which did not have any particular ethnic composition as far as I know). But the distance between the two is easily bridged (one only needs to look at Ireland to see that), and by the 20th century it was, thoroughly, as evidenced by things ranging from Stalin’s Jewish resettlement attempts in the 30s and 40s (whence the “Jewish autonomous region”) to the ethnic quotas and heavily biased exams at the Mekhmat and elsewhere in the 70s and 80s (supported not only by a mass of mostly-forgotten university functionaries, but also by some of the genuine greats such as Pontrjagin, cf You Failed Your Math Test, Comrade Einstein).
(That last part is why any intentional bias or quota in admissions gives me the chills. Nothing will go wrong, surely.)
It’s not only the Jews, of course. The common euphemistic appellation for the situation on the Caucasus, “tensions”, hides a morass of mutual hatreds that is centuries deep, though again the results of Stalin’s disastrous resettlement efforts are best characterized as “fallout”, and the two Chechen wars intended as election publicity for Putin did not help. But a close look at the 19th-century colonization of the region as described indirectly by authors like Lermontov gives the impression that the whole thing was pretty fucked up even then.
(If you want to dismiss these places as “not really Russia”, you are proving my point, even if there are senses in which that statement is true.)
Shall we talk about the undocumented and (thus) vastly underpaid Middle Eastern migrant workers who have sustained most of Moscow’s municipal infrastructure for the last two decades? (Though perhaps not for much longer, given the recent monetary restrictions.) Who have reversed much of its despair- and alcohol-fueled collapse of the late Soviet times? That the low-wage jobs should go to them may not be not explicitly xenophobic (except inasmuch as any system of employment controls for foreigners is), just the result of the how the USSR was organized and how it fell apart; but I have an acquaintance who has adopted a child from there, and their experiences both with officials and with strangers off-handedly insulting the child or the family sound pretty straightforwardly racist to me.
And, well, let us be honest and acknowledge the mutual feeling of otherness between people from Central or Northern Russia and those from West Ukraine, Belarus, or even the south of the country as it currently is. It can range from having a stereotypical funny-talking character in jokes to toppling monuments, rewriting history, and going to war, but it’s been there for a long time, and the distance between these two extremes isn’t nearly as large as I’d like.
(Navalnyj has distant relatives in Ukraine? Everybody has distant relatives in Ukraine. If you want commentary on the Golodomor and whether it fits here, though, you’ll need to find someone qualified enough to talk specifics about it.)
This is not at all an exhaustive list. (What about the Tatars? The Russian Germans? The postwar expulsions, tacitly accepted by the West, that turned Königsberg into Kaliningrad and Danzig into Gdańsk? I’m sure there are things I’ve never heard of as well.) It might be that there is no “racism” in the precise North American mold in Russia or around it, but that is only because that mold is uninteresting (and to the extent that the opposition to it is built around its incidental features, that opposition is missing the point, although I would not claim to be the one...
A good example would be some of the pieces out there about what it's like to live in Japan as a black person, like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMpxLmMnS6M - their society is definitely not going to racially discriminate like the US does, but that doesn't mean you won't experience any discrimination or unusual treatment due to your skin color being different.
Also, if people get discriminated against based on their nationality and you just said a black person can't possibly be From Here... it seems like if you combine those two statements that would mean black people would naturally get discriminated against since they're foreigners?
The nationality thing is more about those who work customer-facing jobs here. Like, you call a taxi, it arrives but you can't find where. You call the driver to ask where they stopped, but the driver is from Tajikistan or Uzbekistan and barely speaks any Russian. It is frustrating when you can't use your native language in your home country for something as mundane as asking the taxi driver where they are. Besides, they usually do their jobs much more shoddily, get paid less, and have lower standards. So, yes, these people have this kind of reputation, but every rule has its exceptions.
But then if someone is a foreign student for example, they are never treated like that. So I guess this discrimination is not against the nationality per se, but against people bringing their customs into someone else's society and refusing to blend in?
I'd say "racism" those days is a fairly weird word that I've seen infrequently applied as an umbrella term covering many different things.
It's almost certainly true that there is virtually no "classical" (black vs white) racism there. Russia never had any significant fraction of black population, and the flavors of slavery were quite different from the US. When Russian sees a black person, while their inner voice would surely say "this person is an alien", there's most likely would be no immediate derogatory prejudice involved - because to best of my awareness it was never instilled, at least not in the Soviet and post-Soviet mindspace.
But in Russia there surely is something similar, just of a different flavor - again, because of different history and societal composition. Say, doubtlessly there are tons of prejudices based on ethnicity - just remember how many derogatory names and jokes are there (and always were) for neighboring nations such as Ukrainians (this is so fucked up!), Georgians, Tajiks or Uzbeks; or Russian ethniticies - especially Chechens (this nationality is pretty touchy conversation subject).
It seems there's a group of people who are too far in the other direction too. When I heard that it's preferred to say "allowlist" instead of "whitelist", do you know what my reaction was?
"Sure, whatever."
And I moved on with my life. It has zero impact on my day to day. The pushback reminds me of people who deadname others on purpose. Like, who cares? Bob wants to be called Sally now? Sure, whatever.
However it tends to become a password game. There's a new password every few months. If you know the new password, you get to feel above those who don't. It's as we invent new crimes to charge people with.
If no one calls it out (because sure, whatever), it keeps ratcheting up. Then banal conversations turn into minefields. What you say gets invalidated because you used the wrong password.
Is this a common occurrence for you? It has never happened to me.
I'm skeptical about whether it's actually and issue or mostly a hypothetical issue.
This entire discourse is so full of straw men it's hard to believe you have actually had real conversations with these people.
There is so much effort during these conversations toward "calling in" vs "calling out" that I am very confused how a conversation could ever get to the point you describe. You'd have to be really callous, and completely unwilling to meet your conversation partner on an even field, to elicit such reactions.
And no, Twitter pile-ons don't count as evidence for your argument -- Twitter is very, very far from an accurate cross-section of "real life".
So - I used a word that someone didn’t like, they corrected me, I adjusted without deep apology and moved on, and everything was fine. Who cares? Why is this such a huge issue, language evolves all the time.
My suspicion is - of people who run into problems with language at tech companies, half of the problem is due to their reaction to being corrected.
So I guess the password is “don’t use a colloquialism based on an ethnic stereotype “, and that seems pretty straightforward and reasonable.
My response would be more like: And just who are you?
So in a way, you’re right.
Is every disagreement you experience combative? Every correction? I tell you, I had a catch-up yesterday with a former team member that turned to the subject of web3, and that friendly debate was approximately 50x more combative as the moment I described.
And how does the other person think they’re better than me? You’re inventing all of this context about a simple conversation that just doesn’t exist.
Because, look, I’m a successful, senior, valued individual who is respected and liked by my team. In the grand scheme of my life, if someone wants me to use one word vs another, why do I care? I have thousands of things that are more important to worry about than that.
It’s the same way that I work with someone who likes to be addressed in emails by their full name - okay, no problem, remind me once and I’ll just move on. Or a coworker I had who was from Africa and did not want to be referred to as “African American” - sure, fine.
Doing so diminishes me not at all, because I don’t define my worth based on whether I use the correct (or incorrect) word or not.
It seems like a lot of the objections that I see in this thread have to do with people having issues being “corrected” or “policed” or “silenced”, all of which have to do with how they interpret how those moments have wronged THEM. Another option would be to let it go. Yet another would be to see themselves as making the faintest possible effort to make sure people feel welcome.
That's the gap between you and others in this thread. What we've experienced is not that one individual is genuinely offended and everyone just moves on, it's that they immediately run the HR/management with crocodile tears in their eyes, and then demand you be fired. They conclude that the only reason to refuse their request is because you're an ideological enemy and don't care about anything else.
And that's why it's bad. It's not about genuinely taking offence, and never was. It is about establishing dominance over powerful institutions so they can turn them all into Twitter - weapons in a never-ending dystopian culture war that can never be won because the victory conditions change every day.
On the other hand, all that nonsense about 'master' was ridiculous. Master's degrees, the master boot record, come on let that one go.
blinks in disabled lesbian
Google: "Hold my beer..."
Try using:
[carbonated malt beverage]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdSi9NW5u3E
A true AI would respond to user behavior and back off or change accordingly. Reminds me of Google News which keeps inserting articles about Kardashians no matter how often I tell it to "include fewer of these stories". For all the hype of Google's advanced AI, instead we get faceless, imperious NannyTech.
Maybe they're using a language model for part of speech tagging or to suggest alternative words with similar meaning but there's no way an AI decided that "motherboard" is taboo.
Even a toy solution would be smarter, you could compare the TF-IDF of each word in different populations (woke, average, toxic) to identify non-woke language, if that was the intention - not saying it’s right.
This is clearly just someone who ran a regex over a dictionary and didn’t check the output of their script for scunthorpes such as “motherboard”. It’s so low tech for Google, 1990s technology.
I think you meant 'person of means'?
The impetus for this piece was someone wrote a tweet that got very popular implying Google is somehow trying to cover for "landlords" by calling them "property owners". Vice writers are upset about that and would prefer to use "landlord" cause in their culture it has a negative connotation.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slur
1a : an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo
And to the point, in NYC media circles, it is nearly the equivalent of an actual slur which is why I called it that. Just one writers want to use as opposed to one they think it is inappropriate to use.
Because I'm sure that actual landlords don't have a problem being referred to as landlords, so you must be referring to some other group.
> A transcribed interview of neo-Nazi and former Klan leader David Duke—in which he uses the N-word and talks about hunting Black people—gets no notes. Radical feminist Valerie Solanas’ SCUM Manifesto gets more edits than Duke’s tirade; she should use “police officers” instead of “policemen,”
Mother definitely does not mean birthing person. The easiest example is adoption. Would would you call the mother in that case? Adoptive Female Parent goes again against the 'rule' because it has female in there. Parent 1/Parent 2? no it has Hierarchy.
I fail to understand what’s going on these days. Words change their meaning over decades. A small minority seem hellbent on kicking up a storm to change popular usage, where no offense or other meaning is implied in general modern usage.
It doesn't even make sense that an AI model trained on normal writing samples would flag that as problematic, since it is not considered so by the vast majority of people. Unless the model was trained exclusively on the most extreme Tumblr posts, it suggests that fringe Google employees are injecting their personal ideology into the products.
The vast, vast majority of people do not want their mothers erased from the language.
Google might be too far gone, and working with those people would be so exhausting that it's actually stopped me from applying (James Damore)
There are companies that don't stand for that sort of stuff. And top paying ones too (pay better than Goog). Coinbase is one of them, and I don't want to mention mine to avoid dox. And go check blind, you'll find the vast majority of people don't stand for this BS either, and that they're just silenced.
My advice? Hit them where it hurts & vote with your feet. Google's not the top payer anymore, so just leave.
In principle I agree but I feel like level headed folks choosing to leave only makes the echo chamber even worse. And sadly, I don't think Google as a company will suffer much of a downside because they're so big.
I like the security of not working with unchecked witch hunts . I don't want to be Damore'd because of words I use outside of work.
Instead, it's the white picket fence, steady income and BBQs for me
As the share of ideologically-driven people rises, capacity to solve problems and create valuable stuff decreases. The organization will die inevitably.
I suppose that's easier than trying to debate every occurrence.
The things that worry me are the witch hunts started by the same group of people. See my other comment on "fren"
Teach someone with no previous cultural knowledge what "allow" and "deny" means, then ask them what white list and black list means, then ask them what allow list and deny list means.
Black and white list requires previous knowledge of what those terms mean, allow and deny do not. Someone can intuit from just basic language knowledge what the feature does.
Although I don't think anyone ever seriously thought that "master" branch meant the "lord" branch.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/474419/does-the-...
I personally like "main" as the replacement. Clear, concise and as you say, feels natural too.
Hmm there's also something about he who picked the name (which wasn't Linus apparently) meant "master" as in e.g. "master recording", see the Twitter tweets in the comments to that answer. And that he doesn't remember if maybe he was influenced by BitKeeper, was 15 years ago
Regarding your concern about people for whom English isn't the first language, I dont know how valid it is. Because those terms exist under the same names and fall under the same usage in many other languages. I can confirm that it is the case with Russian, as "черный список" is a commonly used phrase, and it literally translates to "black list", and has the exact same meaning as in English.
Better hope you're not dealing with a block device or other data structure that involves units of data called blocks.
"Which one, the deny list or the list of blocks?".
Whitelist and blacklist are the words we've been using for decades to describe a concept. Everybody knows what they mean.
Yeah, and so was calling black men "boy" or using the n-word like 50 years ago.
Language changes because people realize there are better words that more people are okay with.
—- The langage police
Pushing such terms is (while presumably this is not the conscious intent) a means of cementing power by showing who (as in, “what vague coalition”, not “which specific people”) is in control.
Ultimately if you're trying to edge proof language then you're just changing which bunch of people you're pissing off but I feel like people who do this act like its impossible they could piss anyone off over this.
Most people don't see 'blacklist' with racist connotations or think 'motherboard' is in any way at odds with transgenderism.
I'm generally on board with using culturally neutral terms, particularly since they're often more descriptive of the actual thing being described. I think there would be far less resistance if people didn't feel coerced.
[0]: like painting over a fence, geez.
Independent of all other political goings on, in a vacuum, I could agree that we should get rid of white and blacklist and replace them with something else.
because you give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
look up "menstruators" and "birthing people" to see what else that kind of people fight for.
>objectively clearer
then it wouldn't be necessary to force the change. nobody had a problem with these words until very recently, and only in very narrow circles of very loud people with disproportionate amount of power
>especially for folks who's first language is not English?
that's a very slippery slope
Political correctness linters require you to explicitly acknowledge or disable warnings when you're doing things like pasting existing URLs.
And it never stops with one term. It started with master/slave (which are now replaced with dozens of synonyms that are often hard to figure out), then whitelist/blacklist, and the activists are already queueing up the next words for sure.
Few people want to ban others from using alternative terms that they consider better, but where they draw the line is when others prevent them from using the terms they deem appropriate, or demand/force additional work.
There are real problems in this world, yet it seems that the progressives are going after the minute details. From a SWE perspective, it would be like your app getting crushed by bugs and technical debt while you argue over how big the logo on the login page should be.
The worst part of all of this, is the companies that are actively pushing this crap are the same companies that have the resources to make a difference in this world.
If you're a company with a 1T+ market cap, actually do something bold with your cash. Imagine if all the top tech companies approached a bunch of non-profits trying to help people in 3rd world countries and said: "here's a blank check, do what you need to". We could solve a shitload of problems on this planet.
But no, we all are just quibbling about our pronouns and how to write "inclusively".
> A transcribed interview of neo-Nazi and former Klan leader David Duke—in which he uses the N-word and talks about hunting Black people—gets no notes.
I think unfortunately a lot of folks think this is a feature, not a bug.
That said, if the word "landlord" organically fell out of favor and out of usage to be replaced by something else I wouldn't care. Language is always evolving, and usually we don't make a big deal out of it. It's mundane and can often be helpful. It doesn't have to become a proxy for culture war arguments if we don't make it one.
But to have Google (or any AI) in charge of this... just... no. Admittedly that's a common stance for me but I think it's well justified here anyway.
I didn't think of that. I always thought of it as "lording over" something. As in she's the "lord of the land."
That said, a landlord and a property owner are not the same thing. Many (most?) apartment buildings are owned by one company and managed by another.
But she wouldn't be; she'd be the "lady of the land".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxRkHeQ7-B8
A caveat of bending over backwards to be as inclusive as possible is that sometimes you end up including people who are just plain nuts. You end up enshrining the personal problems of a handful of people into company policy.
Are you suggesting that it's "plain nuts" to be against private ownership of land?
I think these two groups would prefer "landlord" over "proprietor" because "landlord" has a much more negative connotation and probably inspires a visceral reaction in anyone who's had a bad landlord. Only the "male" thing makes any sort of sense from a left wing POV.
I don't like that landlords exist, but that's an inordinately stupid reason to try and get rid of a word. Surely noone believes that by sensoring a word you get rid of that which the word describes.
Please don't assume this. In the southern US in the late 80s and early 90s, "landlady" was a term that was very commonly used for female "landlords". I'm not sure if it's specifically regional, though.
I once was scolded by a United Airlines flight agent at Denver when I expressed disappointment that my full-fair buisness class ticket was downgraded to coach because of an operational change. I said, perhaps a bit flippantly, "I didn't pay for a J ticket (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fare_basis_code#Booking_class) to sit in steerage."
She replied: "Sir! How dare you compare people flying coach to cattle!"
(Of course, the word "steerage" has nothing to do with cattle. We sent a Fed-Ex to United corporate telling them we didn't like being scolded and got an apology and a full refund for that flight. This was in 1998 or so. I doubt that would happen today.)
I would believe the GP's second hypothesis; it's hard to imagine who else would even think to substitute "property owner" for "landlord" (it's not even accurate!)
Google wouldn’t be my first choice, but it’s nice that someone is able to dedicate attention to this.
- It would be nice to improve our antiquated language. I’m thankful that other people have the time and expertise to work on this.
- Changing language by decree from our tech overlords is dystopian. Google in particular I don’t trust to act in good faith.
Both thoughts can be held simultaneously.
Language constantly evolves through use, and historically this has worked very well. Why is it suddenly necessary for people to "work on" it?
A significant number of people, perhaps even a heavy majority, think there's nothing wrong with "landlord" that needs improvement. Change for change's sake isn't a great justification.
It's worth considering the possibility that the "why" is due to insidious bullying, a miasmatic reframing of language in the false name of unity.
If everyone feels a bit awkward about saying anything, then those who generated the awkwardness gain tremendous power.
It's hard not to secretly suspect that some of these things arise that way-- satire that is so spot on that it gets adopted as the truth.
> and out of usage to be replaced by something else I wouldn't care
Fundamentally that's why language bullying works-- it doesn't matter what words are used so long as the communicating parties understand each other. Not only does it mean that it's not worth it to fight back, it makes anyone who does fight back against it look automatically suspect.
The same is true for a lot of other bullying: ignoring that its bullying deprives it of its power. Or, at least, it denies it of it's power until it doesn't.
But do we want to live in a world where our language is constantly being rewritten-- at a non-zero cost-- by bullies (and their automation)? Reasonable people could debate it.
Now I know people are bored of parallels between reality and 1984, or Brave New World, or whatever other dystopia novels. They were written by authors not prophets after all.
Still, it's impossible for me not to think we're on our way when I read something like
"But do we want to live in a world where our language is constantly being rewritten-- at a non-zero cost-- by bullies"
When talking about a real world situation.
Personally I do not want to live in that world.
You mixed up newspeak, the constructed language the state was inventing, with doublethink, the practice of believing 2 contradictory statements that each support the state in opposing ways (having it both ways).
There have been many PR/issues on github that were either very likely, or certainly submitted by trolls, that have been accepted.
[1] Although nowadays it's common to see master/slave being replaced, back in 2015 it was not common, this one one of the first things that dropped that terminology. The fact that the user is called pcbro and has a picture of PC Principal from South Park, makes it somewhat likely that it was a troll.
[2] I think based on the language used is almost 100% certainly a troll
[1] https://github.com/apple/swift/pull/165 [2] https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/87268
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=People%20of%...
They seem increasingly disconnected with what their users actually want.
... and the willingness to take risks has historically served them pretty well.
The idea that there are millions of people who want to be told that motherboard is a dirty word every time they write it, but won't realize that desire until Google foists it on them, just strikes me as absurd.
Apple is a different story of course.
I feel like I can just gesture to the stock price and say "scoreboard," but that seems an unfair dismissal of the question.
To expound on the topic a bit: I think when they were a smaller company it served them well consistently. Photos and Drive have become an enterprise cornerstone that supports their "light cloud" business space (quite a few people pay for that extra storage). Ads doesn't get talked about much, but the internal culture is very quick-innovate. Chrome went from being a wild idea to dominating the browser-share (and therefore giving Google a foot in the door on everyone's desktop computer), and then they parlayed that into a whole operating system play. Maps basically displaced most of the other players in that space and now competes with only a couple other contenders.
I don't know if it will continue to do so now that they're an 800-lb gorilla in the room. They've certainly become more structurally conservative in the decade-plus since their founding. And I think their push into Cloud is putting pressure on them to act a lot more starched-collar; Enterprise is a different customer than they're used to (or comfortable with) dealing with.
Being passive-aggressively told "blacklist" is a no-no word is not.
If you were really clever, you'd let the user set a "sensitivity" level for the writing from "normal human speak" to "corporate PR approved".
But what if the company found out (and some employee leaked) the fact that most people deliberately set the default level to "normal human speak", and its campaign to replace and redefine words doesn't have any democratic legitimacy (let alone add any commercial value)?
Like, 'I identify both as a mainboard and male, your use of motherboard offends me'???
And this isn't some made up controversy. The Biden administration has been replacing "mother" with "birthing person."
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/09/pregnan...
As annoying as a woke clippy might be, at times I realize that we're lucky we don't live in a racist clippy alt reality. "Would you like to expand all mentions of "n-word"?"
If someone is being racist, wouldn't we arguably be better off if they used language that made it transparent to the reader-- rather than disguised it with the magic of search and replace?
Real prejudice can't be erased by search and replace but it can be made more plausibly deniable.
So for example, a writer of British English may want to be warned that "Bring me some fags when you return" may be misunderstood by American readers.
This hypothetical checker might still warn you about "master"-- for example-- as there is now a sizable contingent that finds it controversial. ... but it would equally warn you against terms like "birthing person" which is considered by many to be biologically reductive to the point of being offensive, and by most people to be at least highly loaded.
Such a tool would almost certainly not caution you against "landlord".
I interpret Microsoft’s as helpful when considering ESL or other cultures. I interpret Google’s as straight woke. Very different products but you’re probably right that Microsoft led them there.
One of the best films on this subject is Dogville by Lars von Trier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogville , with Grace as its main character.
You also assume they are female.
Why?
And much of this logic ignores context.
The intentions of these features aside which will no doubt be the topic of conversation, to me the biggest takeaway about this is just how entirely stupid AI still is. Failing to recognize context, wordplay, even names (suggesting alternatives to Motherboard), and so forth. Trying to adjust something as complex as 'inclusivity' by flipping words is like trying to change the tone of a poem by flipping individual letters. Entirely wrong level of abstraction.
> calling landlords “property owners” is almost worse than calling them “landchads,” and half as accurate. It’s catering to people like Howard Schultz who would prefer you not call him a billionaire, but a “person of means.”
"I like the tool because it removes others' words that I don't like but I don't like the tool because it removes my words that others don't like"
The author does position themselves against algorithmic sanitization generally.
This is a whole paragraph in the article where the author agrees this is good thing, just that google implemented it poorly.
Example: Is the proprietor of a bar the person running it or the landlord who owns the building?
A more clearcut case of semantic confusion I can see a crappy AI creating out of the blue would be:
"My proprietor said if I didn't pay the rent soon she was gonna ..."
Which clearly has a very different (and basically nonsensical) meaning than a the more natural formulation using the now thankfully forbidden L-word.
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis...
> A landlord is the owner of a house, apartment, condominium, land, or real estate which is rented or leased to an individual or business
How is that different from "property owner"? The difference is that to you, a native English speaker, landlord is a word you're familiar with. To others, it's a whole new word they need to learn, whereas property-owner is self-descriptive. It's like using good variable names in your code, you don't need to look up the definition of every word when you use re-use words that are common.
They mean different things: one is a subset of the other. A person who owns their own home that they live in is a property owner, but not a landlord.
Well that's new to me, because I absolutely do not get that from the term "property owner". For example, if I have a place I own that my brother lives in, and someone asks my brother "who is the property owner", he would definitely answer me. I own that property. How does the term property owner say anything about where the person lives in?
Our local immigration office recently picked a newer, better name, but since no one uses it, I'm sticking to the old one.
Another one is expat vs immigrant. I favor immigrant, but I can't rename expat insurance to immigrant insurance. The latter does not exist.
I use the gender-neutral "they" across the website, but sometimes "he" would be a lot clearer when replacing a singular noun like "the landlord".
Sometimes the common word is the right word to use. When in doubt, I refer to Google Trends.
After banning world-famous paintings from Facebook because they dared show a breast, a few well-off engineers and product managers will now pick which English words should remain, and which should be let go.
How nice of them. Don’t know what we’d do without them.
https://www.economist.com/international/2021/06/12/social-me...
I'd like to give some examples, but I fear I'd end up swiftly banned for even using some of the best examples.
One interesting case is "idiots, imbeciles and morons" - once technical terms to describe a mental health scale. The 'most insulting' end of the scale is now probably the most acceptable word to use in public!
Cmon man, there's a big difference between the natural evolution of language and some radical-run company forcibly jamming their desired changes down our throats through an instantaneous and global software update.
However, personally I'm pretty sure that the US is overdoing it.
Issues with breasts aren't exactly a new thing in the US, just ask Janet Jackson.
And this quote, from the wikipedia article, sums it all quite well:
> "I know many people in other countries are scratching their heads and thinking 'What in the world is the big fuss over there?'"
Part of the reason these things have taken off is that their proponents are very vocal, while the opponents prefer to just mind their own business.
Though, I agree.. inquisitions and dogma are honeytraps for free-thinkers, by signalling dissent you are exposing that you arent under their ideological control.
Disagreeable sorts should, whereever possible, not raise their hand when asked, "do you have any hetrodox opinions?".
It's just my anecdotal experience with this kind of mentality that the people looking to enlighten us simple minded folk are also using any questioning or opposition of their enlightenment as an opportunity to shame those people that question or oppose. Some kind of twisted competition I guess.
(not to say I don't support enlightenment of certain issues, I do, but with limits)
You go to shake someone's hand using your right hand. That reinforces the patriarchy, so you are told off.
You ask, no one told me I should shake hands with my left hand.
It's not the job of the oppressed to educate the oppressor.
On the flip side, I know many that have been discriminated based on their looks or vocal patterns(trans / lgbt). Alot of companies and people assume these people are a problem because of what goes on at google and decline them due to culture fit.
In many of the more frugal businesses I've seen, folks just don't have the time to strike / protest etc for some of the stuff the FANG folks are into.
They are paid very well, many especially non-engineering roles have VERY flexible work setups.
Netflix had a big strike over Dave Chappelle
"Transgender Netflix employees and co-workers will stage a walkout next week protesting the streaming giant’s decision to release Dave Chappelle’s latest comedy special"
On Spotify we had the demand for employees direct editorial control of the Joe Rogan podcast:
"Spotify staffers are now considering a walkout or full-blown strike if their demands for direct editorial oversight of The Joe Rogan Experience podcast aren’t met."
I don't listen to Joe Rogan, but I don't think my work environment is necessarily helped by the staff at spotify taking over his show.
So these are the content strikes (the public side of internal pressures).
The question currently is, do you want the loudest voices to control all conversation?
Then for sure, support these strikes and have things taken over by these staff.
Even if declined citing a reason everyone could reasonably agree is reprehensible, do you imagine that the activists at Google would - what - put GP on a Silicon Valley blacklist that everyone subscribes to?
If you know anyone within Google, I suggest privately asking their experiences, rather than sampling only those people who are mad about Google on HN.