it's cheap - i could go for a walk - go to the gym - call my mother - clean the house - na - clicking the same 3 buttons in a different order on youtube - hoping for something new and amazing-- is "cheaper" - it's easy - & very occasionally - I win something amazing-
think this has always been true tho - mum used to buy the sunday times then read the same pages multiple times throughout the week - not sure she thought she would get something new out of them each time - it was just something cheap to do -
> clicking the same 3 buttons in a different order on youtube - hoping for something new and amazing-- is "cheaper" - it's easy - & very occasionally - I win something amazing-
You just made me realize that these algorithmic feeds are quite literally a skinner box because you're exactly right.. once in a blue moon there is a recommendation, a video, or a tweet, that really is amazing and can change your perspective or give you huge amounts of enjoyment
So we click on, waiting for that next payout of gold.
If it annoys you, then you're probably an extrovert.
I am an introvert and I like being alone and being able to choose how much I self-express and communicate. In person, I do not have as much choice about my time and energy commitment in front of company if I want to be polite. It's just easier for me to manage my social bandwidth while being on the internet.
I think he is more annoyed of being unproductive, i.e. wasting time on social media instead of getting work done. I am more of an introvert and love working alone, but I hate looking back at a day and realizing that I spent most of my time lurking on certain wensites instead of implementing that undo functionality which I had originally planned.
I am also an introvert and the computer is an easy escape after a day of what I can only describe as sensory overload. That said, the author's point was more about productivity than socialization. There, I can only agree.
To offer a couple of personal examples: I have to actively avoid certain types of games since it is far too easy to explore virtual worlds, gather virtual resources, and build virtual things when I would feel more productive doing something real. That something real may be as mundane as learning how to develop software more sophisticated than toy projects, simply because the product is reflects reality rather than fantasy.
The other example is my tendency to watch other people do real things, like embedded development or repairing electronics. I have the interest and I even have most of the tooling. Still, consuming is easier than creating. That is especially true after a mentally exhausting day.
I can only conclude that technology has made some things easier than others, and that it doesn't necessarily correlate with what people value. It doesn't even matter whether those values are social or asocial.
It's so often expressed it feels like a universal, but I don't feel like I do, at least. I spend a lot of time on the Internet but I don't think it's a waste because there's nothing else I'd rather be doing. Now, maybe my ambitions and dreams are set a bit low, but that's a different matter ;-)
Lifting heavy weights helps one get rid of all that mental bullshit. It's a cornerstone habit. So lifting can form a base for all other beautiful stuff in your life.
It's hard to care about trivial shit on Youtube or Instagram when you just lifted dumbbells until fatigue and did some good squats.
Or you start worrying about RPE / programming and comparing yourself to others.
At least that’s what happened to me. Got very strong over the years, didn’t get much happier, and then would stress out about losing any gains that were made.
Eventually I quit caring and started walking more. I feel the same.
Or browse the internet between sets. It’s big brain time. I’m not even joking, if you’re going to waste time at least multitask and get stronger/healthier in the process.
This is the sole reason I use reddit on my phone. I keep a tab for AskReddit, open something for later if the title seems interesting enough, and at least skim the thread within a few days. No app, no login, old-style UI.
Since my brain is usually disengaged when lifting (gotta save those calories for what matters), I rarely bother with anything 'deep' between sets.
One potential upside of this is that the threads are usually a few hours or days old before I actually read them, which means that I can expect no new content from them once I have my fill of a thread.
Like any other addiction, it's a way of coping with painful emotions that you (and I) are hiding from (consciously or not). I've been in therapy for several years now and I'm still struggling.
Substituting drugs, alcohol, shopping, cutting yourself, etc, it’s all the same root cause which is hiding somewhere deep inside yourself. Either do the work to find out what that root cause is or be held hostage by it. Took decades for me to figure it out for myself. Well, the process took decades to play out. Once the root cause was dealt with, improvement was instantaneous.
Well done, you have condensed and encapsulated the problem into a single line. This is evil corps motto, "Keeping you at the mercy of our addictive user engagement algorithms since 20xx".
I'm not sure about wasting. Most of my surfing consists of unearthing gems, and I have to wade through a lot of noise and muck to find those gems, but the gems are there. If I could automate it, I would, but it wouldn't be the same.
A piece of code that crawls the net looking for something I would really enjoy is a hard problem, and I would have to code in my own biases to the program to make it work properly, and this means I couldn't share the program with others since it would be very personal and context specific.
I am aware of confirmation bias and filter bubbles, but it doesn't mean I don't like my own bubbles. It's just plain psychology afterall and we're all human, although I do try to break out of my comfort zone in terms of what content I consume, and regularly scout for different places to get my content besides The Bird Site, Reddit, FaceBuck etc
Can you give an example of such a gem? Normally I just rely on HN to provide me with interesting links, but lately it doesn't seem to give me the same kick it used to.
These people also have a cool demo of splitting a single program across two different computers (frontend and backend webserver in their case). Maybe a bit less convincing than the previous one, but something I intend to watch: https://www.hytradboi.com/2022/uis-are-streaming-dags
These people have some really cool work on automatically solving physics problems (just linking to one of their talks as an example): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHhDgxkiR9c
I'm not the person you asked but I try to keep my gems in bookmarks, would love to share some. Obviously I don't know your interests so take it for what you will. I have many more than I'll post here if you want some.
Some of this came from HN, some from elsewhere.
This website lists the first references to some cultural icons on Usenet (for example the first time AIDS was ever discussed, first mention of a new TV cartoon "The Simpsons", etc.)
http://www.eightyeightynine.com/culture/80susenet.html
The Public Domain Review, a collection and analysis of interesting stuff in the public domain
https://publicdomainreview.org/
David Rumsey Historical Map Collection. I have spent many hours browsing the incredible content here.
https://www.davidrumsey.com/
Restoration Mustang. A high quality long term journal of the restoration of a classic Mustang. Think like an /r/diy project but with way more detail and over a longer time scale.
https://restorationmustang.com/
The Renegade Gardener. Highly opinionated no-bullshit gardening advice. I especially love the "Don't Do That" section.
https://renegadegardener.com/
Garden Myths. There's a lot of misinformation and old wives' tales in gardening, this website cuts the crap.
https://www.gardenmyths.com/
Million Short is a search engine that lets you cut out the million (or 10,000 or 100,000) top results from a search, really good for finding gems. It also has an option for removing e-commerce websites from search which is a godsend.
https://millionshort.com/
> code in my own biases to the program to make it work properly
Isn't this, in theory, what the "algorithms" are trying to do for you? They see what you interact with and try to optimize for "similar" content to surface these gems for you automatically, since it will keep you in their platform longer.
The quality to noise ratio on mostly social media platforms has become obscenely low over the past three years or so. I do think social media can be a force for good but it seems like the algorithms are best at perpetuating the lowest effort, spamiest content.
Completely agree with this - it's those gems that keep us addicted. If the internet were 100% time wasting garbage, I think it would be easy enough to quit completely. But that tiny percentage of good content, which can often be very good (some of the best and most worthwhile writing I have ever encountered has been posted on obscure forums), keeps you searching for the next "hit."
Personally, I would love to subscribe to a paid service that would produce a "daily briefing" of sorts with well curated highlights of the internet. Content aggregators have tried to get at this, but the signal to noise ratio is still way off. If someone could produce this product, I actually think it could be quite successful.
Well if you want friends the first step is to find them. Wish there was an easier way to do this but messaging people from HN/Slack/Discord has been a great option
Another key factor is, that YouTube interleaves really well made educational content with fun and stupid videos (these have their own merit, of course).
I think this leads to people hunting for new videos about topics that really interest them, those can be insightful and stimulating. At the same time, the next 20 minute TikTok compilation is one click away, as well as numerous click-farmy videos with no real substance but the appearance of depth and knowledge.
This is simply not possible if you, for example, get your knowledge and entertainment from e.g. books. To click a funny video after watching a good video essay or educational content is somehow simpler than putting away your textbook and searching for your favorite comic in your bookshelf.
Just speaking for myself, I've noticed that my habit is to eat what is in front of me, and clean my plate. I mean this both literally and figuratively.
If I have dessert in the house, like a bag of chocolate, then I eat one after dinner. If I don't have it in the house, then I just don't eat dessert.
If I have a social media feed full of content, then I'll scroll through all of it until there's nothing else that's new.
So what I've been doing is not entirely quitting Internet stuff, but instead I just massively unsubscribing, unfollowing, and filtering all the feeds. Sort of a Marie Kondo thing. I go through every subreddit I'm in, every RSS feed, every account I follow on Twitter, and i strongly consider "is this really providing lots of joy and/or value?" If not, it gets the chop.
I've cut out at least 2/3s of the stuff I was following since the peak, and it's only going down. Now when I doomscroll it's only for a few minutes. I hit the end of new content very very quickly. When that happens I start to look elsewhere. I've been reading a lot more actual books, done more chores, and been more productive overall.
As for the things I unfollowed? They clearly had no value because not only do I not miss them, I can barely even remember what they were.
Doing the same, but this does not really apply for algorithmic feeds.
When you open YouTube the recommendations are always the first thing you see, same for TikTok and Twitter (although at least you can configure it there).
Sure you can say “just don’t use recommendation systems” just as you can say “just don’t go on YouTube”.
Nice. I'll have to incorporate this little gem for the Linux laptop. Thank you. When I'm home, I primarily watch YouTube on my TV, but I don't use YouTube. Rather, I use SmartTubeNext, which grabs the same videos as YouTube, but has no ads, tracking, kills sponsored content in the video, as well as no YouTube recommendations. I'm very happy with it. I run it off my Amazon Firestick. If you're interested, here is the how-to: https://troypoint.com/smarttubenext/
I find it relatively easy to use YouTube without exposing myself to their recommendations (not that they're ever particularly good, in my experience).
My bookmark for YouTube is directly to my subscriptions, and it's also possible to create a android shortcut link directly to subscriptions. Occasionally, a flow will direct me to the homepage, but that's rare and I usually organically bounce back to my subs without even thinking about it.
There's always recs below a video, but again, those are rarely very interesting to me or they're things I've subscribed to anyway.
I’ve been using a really nice extension the past couple months called unhook [0] that gives a lot of control over the YouTube UI. I’ve disabled shorts, the homepage, related videos, comments, etc. and now I only see videos I have subscribed to. Much more useful (I subscribed for a reason!) and much less time wasted. Just thought I’d share in case it helps anyone!
I block recommendation sections on some site with the ublock element picker (like the "recommendations" stackoverflow puts in the right column from their other sites, completely unrelated to the current page or search terms).
I never got round to trying that with Youtube, this seems a better solution.
> When you open YouTube the recommendations are always the first thing you see
There is a brilliant hack to YT's urge to show you some BS. Make a bookmark of YT submissions on HN. Clear cookies. Click on any few random vids. Voila! Now YT considers you enough smart person to be shown a decent recommendations!!! (But the magic quickly disappears if you will click any BS from main because my hack does not affects the main page).
The recommendation algos can be quite good but you need to give them good signal. I doubt many people do this, but clicking 'not interested' on the clickbaity vids and thumbs-up high-effort content can very quickly tune your recommendations to be very high quality.
Switching Twitter to timeline mode rather than their poor excuse of an algorithm helps. Learned that from HN....but I have a browser plug-in that also removes all their recommended and "Joe also owed this tweet" junk.
Funny enough I have the opposite opinion regarding twitter:
If I use it in timeline mode I have the urge to read through all of it until where I stopped last time as the OP described (same with my Feedly RSS feed)
In algorithm mode its more like a "don't care, its garbled anyway, just a sea of stuff".
That being said I am still mostly using timeline mode.
I'm the same way, keep me away from buffets, cupboards containing sweets, and any newsfeed.
One thing I've founds success with was getting a digital Economist subscription (confession, just a shared password). Having a steady stream of high quality content without paywall nonsense helped me replace my regular trolling around internet with something more useful and less addictive. Perhaps paying a bit for something high quality can help fill void for those dopamine seeking internet impulses.
I've always looked at paywall sites as obnoxious cash grabs that try to reel you in with small samples of quality content... But this makes me look at them differently now. Perhaps the fact that you gave them money allows them to forego excessive advertising and clickbait and provide you with quality content that is actually worth reading because they can focus on creating good content rather than pulling people in with free clickbait and just do anything possible to keep us scrolling and watching ads. The unfortunate part is that it doesn't really make sense to pay money to subscribe to every single website individually... Maybe if google had a quality version of google news... lol
Thought this was just me and it’s so refreshing to hear. I can never eat just part of a bag of chips. Or save the really good sandwhich for later. Or not drink another coffee because I already had one. Etc. etc
Do lots of other folks experience this? I seem to only have self control when it hurts my job or income, and even then, barely.
ADHD here. Kids are ADHD. My Malinois has to be ADHD. Being ADHD like I am with almost two decades of IT under my belt has felt weird. I crave my YouTube channels and certain news sites since the content creators I watch/read put out daily content. Ditto my insane amount of caffeine and nicotine consumption, which I learned from having my kids diagnosed, is me self medicating in lieu of something pharmaceutical. I'm also OCD, so that doesn't help. People with ADHD/OCD need closure something fierce, so when I feel like I'm not getting it, I feel the world is not right.
On the professional side, my ADHD/OCD makes for some clean code and pedantically-set up servers. Nothing says ADHD/OCD like taking two days to crank out code which some of my colleagues can crank out in half the time. I'm told I'm too pedantic sometimes. Too much of a perfectionist. ADHD can do that to you. I'm happy with my lot in life.
I don't know why this comment feels like a punch in the face... I have severe ADHD, it's been getting worse and only medication helps, and I cannot get it.
I have failed my whole life, I cannot start shit, I cannot finish anything, I'm just an impulsive monkey who is unfortunately aware of their own situation, stuck inside a body, forced to watch a deadly trainwreck in slow motion.
The little I've achieved has taken me 10x as much time as it would've a normal person. And I'm pissing it all away anyway.
This is hell.
And then I see "everyone in my life is ADHD lolkek" "I'm happy".
Wouldn't you say that ADHD affects the person, and therefore the type of personality would change the outcome?
(In contrast to ADHD defining the person)
Hey, I feel your pain. It’s important to consider though that you can only do your best with what you’ve got. So long as you’re doing your best, your honest best, what else can you do?
I know the urge to beat yourself to for it is pretty strong. But the only thing you can do is regroup and try to make the rest of today better. Then start again tomorrow.
You’ve achieved something, right? Maybe it took ten times as long. That’s fine. Just keep at it. Don’t compare yourself to other people, just yourself yesterday. That’s all that can count.
It’s easier said than done. Don’t hate yourself though. Life isn’t easy, you just make the most of it. Take care.
I think it's pretty common. I personally call it "Goldfish syndrome", although apparently that's caught on with another informal meaning according to the internet.
Eating and drinking delicious high calorie things rewards your brain. On an evolutionary time scale, delicious things were relatively rare and often required expending a lot of energy to acquire. In the last 100 years or so, modern technology has shifted the typical diet to be primarily cheap, processed high calorie foods.
If you want to change your behavior, I would suggest calorie counting with a phone app. Do it every meal or snack, before you eat it. Even if you don't restrict yourself, it will make you consciously aware of your intake. You'll naturally start thinking in terms of energy intake rather than sensory intake. You'll also start to be able to correlate your emotional state to your current level of hunger rather than the other way around. "I am so hungry I could eat 300 calories of potato chips!" I did that for a few months recently and lost 8 pounds. I stopped doing it more recently, and have gained 3 back.
If you're a hipster at heart and have free time, you could also start doing more of your own food processing at home. Rather than order a pizza ever again, learn how to make a really good hand stretched pizza dough from scratch. If you really like good coffee, buy a hand grinder and whole beans, or figure out how to roast your own beans.
If you think you're eating unhealthy and having external pressure would help with your self control, maybe just go see a primary care physician and request a cholesterol check and to be screened for non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. If you have indeed been too indulgent and lethargic over an extended period of time, your cholesterol will probably read high, and you probably have fat in your liver that may be causing slightly elevated enzyme levels. A Dr. telling you to try to eat healthy may not be motivating, but quantitative data may be.
If you want an altogether nerdier name maybe call it Wittgenstein syndrome?
Drury reports a conversation with the famed philosopher:
> So the next day when we were alone I asked Wittgenstein to tell me more about Kierkegaard. Wittgenstein: “Kierkegaard was by far the most profound thinker of the last century. Kierkegaard was a saint.” He then went on to speak of the three categories of life-style that play such a large part in Kierkegaard’s writing: the asethetic, where the objective is to get the maximum enjoyment out of this life; the ethical, where the concept of duty demands renunciation; and the religious, where this very renunciation itself becomes a source of joy. Wittgenstein: “Concerning this last category I don’t pretend to understand how it is possible. I have never been able to deny myself anything, not even a cup of coffee if I wanted it. Mind you I don’t believe what Kierkegaard believed, but of this I am certain, that we are not here in order to have a good time.”
> Rather than order a pizza ever again, learn how to make a really good hand stretched pizza dough from scratch
This is good for different reasons, such as less additives in your food which might be healthier in the long term, taste, and the pleasure in the activity itself, but is unlikely to help with weight loss. There is little difference in calorie content between two similar pizzas, home made and from a restaurant (assuming you’re not eating Domino’s cheese-stuffed crust style pizzas).
If you compare the same pizzas restaurant vs. homemade then sure, but learning to do it well allows you to modify everything to suit your needs. A really nice thin crust can be made with quite a bit less dough, which may then need a lot less cheese to saturate the dish. Just like that you've knocked down two of the most calorically heavy parts of a pizza!
Neapolitan style pizza baked at high temperature is actually extremely sensitive to excessive topping. Too much sauce or fresh mozzarella, and there will be too much liquid for the center of the crust to cook properly. I'll typically only use maybe 3 tbsp of tomato sauce, and aim for 50% of cheese coverage by area if using hand cut mozzarella cubes, or 80% coverage if shredded.
My typical dough recipe has 150g of flour and 5g sugar per pizza, which is about 550 calories. Let's say 250 calories of cheese. Raw tomato sauce isn't even worth counting. So 800 as a baseline for one pizza. Fully loading it with pepperoni might bump it up to 1000.
A few months ago I was trying to restrict myself to 1800 calories per day. We had friends over for pizza one night, and I decided to just not worry about it and gorge myself. I counted it all up before going to bed, though, and my daily intake worked out to be about 1900.
My point is it's good to make lifestyle changes that lead to healthier choices on average. Pizza is inherently calorie dense, and easy to eat too much of. You might as well make it a relaxing hobby that requires some effort and forethought, rather than something you order out for several times a week because you're stressed out and exhausted. Good dough takes 24 hours to optimally ferment, and requires at least a few minutes of kneading by hand. Stretching the dough, topping it, and then baking it require some focused attention. It's not a big time commitment, though. The activity, mindfulness and the delayed gratification are the healthy part.
Neapolitan style pizza in particular is very thin crust, and the emphasis is on carefully chosen high quality ingredients rather than quantity. It is significantly less calorie dense than typical American pizza. Eating a whole pizza with toppings might be 1000 calories, while a single slice of cheese pizza from Costco is around 800 calories.
It's also very informative to see for yourself the ingredients going into what you're eating. Buying a can of cake frosting at the store gets you roughly the same outcome as making it from scratch using a whole stick of butter and several cups of sugar, but the latter seems more likely to influence the size of the piece you take, or at least make it obvious why you feel bleh after eating it.
When I first read about willpower being an exhaustible resource, it totally aligned with my experience. A few years later I read that those ego depletion studies had been invalidated and that surprised me. Running out of willpower seems like something I experience.
But it might be something that is subjectively felt, and people then attributed it to be something that depletes.
Even if the depletion is invalidated, the subjective feeling might however still be valid.
---
If I should suggest another possibility on the spot, I would suggest mental fatigue.
You get tired of denying yourself things the same way you get tired of denying your kid pestering you for a treat.
It's not directly depletion, but I could subjectively describe it as a resource getting depleted.
It might be worth thinking about what it is that is being depleted, exactly. When I "run out of willpower" it doesn't really feel the same as when I "simply cannot do it anymore". If I lift a weight enough times, eventually I simply can't anymore, no matter how much I will it. It's not a decision, like a decision to stop working on a problem. That would be a lack of willpower to continue...?
Is there really a mental equivalent to physical exhaustion that leaves us beyond the ability to make a decision? Is that what running out of willpower would be?
Believe it or not, even something like physical exertion has hard-to-define limitations. The amount of reps that you can do of an exercise is more based on how forcefully your brain drives your nerves to activate your muscles and keep going. If you have a habit of sticking to sets of 10 reps, odds are you will feel exhausted at 10 reps, and this is because once you hit your magic goal, you're no longer applying the same concentrated mental energy, and you suddenly feel tired and stop there. But if you did that set like as if it were the last set of your life, or like you were at the olympics trying to break records, you'd be able to push 15 or 20 reps, rather than just the 10 that you do as your comfortable limit. You have the physical ability to keep doing something until the moment that your muscles lock up from lactic acid buildup and you just drop. But people rarely ever reach that state. They stop much sooner because pushing further requires more concentrated brain input which they don't want to dedicate. Maintaining your current routine is effortless, and we tend to favor the easy, comfortable. Pushing your limits is uncomfortable, and in a world where we have become so accustomed to prioritizing indulgence and comfort it becomes hard to break out of our safe zones.
Reading your comment made me realize that you're right, there really isn't such a hard rule even with physical exertion. Even putting some motivating music on might make you push for an extra rep or two. If a gun was to your head maybe you'd do even more. The extreme end might be phenomena like "dead man's grip" where inhuman strength is shown while on death's door.
It may be a common trait in programmers, since we're rewarded by getting to the bottom of things: "why is this function failing? who calls it? in which possible states?"
Most programmers have experienced being so immersed in code that we don't notice time is passing, forgetting to eat or sleep.
It's similar with immersion in social media / food / whatever. We become lost in the activity and lose our sense of self.
I've recently heard of the concept of conscientiousness as a personality trait. People with low conscientiousness tend to procrastinate more, and it's tied to ADHD. Apparently it can be trained. I'm trying (though not really succeeding) to make pauses, take a deep breath and think about "what am I doing right now? What should I be doing instead?". Seems so basic, like I've regressed to being a child who has no self control...
> to make pauses, take a deep breath and think about "what am I doing right now? What should I be doing instead?".
this too can have its pitfalls. In my case, I always feel like I have BOTH too many things that I WANT to do and too many things HAVE to do and whenever I step back and try to look at the bigger picture, I realize that I don't feel like I'm making tangible progress on any of them. And then the anxiety sets in and I feel like, "well, if I'm working this hard and not even keeping up, why am I working at all?" And so I sort of "give up" for a few days or a week and feel even MORE guilty because literally nothing is getting done and I'm getting even further behind.
A lot of the comments I write here may sound like I really have my shit together, but that's just because I have a lot of generalized experience that just basically comes from lots of introspection and time being alive. But I have yet to figure out the one weird trick to being both productive (making progress toward future life goals) and happy (enjoying what I have in the present).
I joke about my procrastination with my team: "I looked at my TODO list for the day and there's no way I can get to 90% of it, so I might as well just not get to 100% of it". Sometimes there's a lot of truth to the joke, however.
As much as I know I should prioritize it based on urgency, highest impact, what I could delegate etc., if the willpower required to do that is more than the ramifications or not doing it, it can be a losing battle.
On days when I push through a ton of work, I'm energized at the end of the day. Compared to the feeling of guilt that I just wasted a day when there's so much to do and I achieved little. Yet knowing that still just doesn't provide the necessary motivation some days. I've yet to figure out a reliable solution for it.
It's worth mentioning that conscientiousness is a personality trait that's part of the "big five" personalities traits. It's a personality trait brouping that is supported by evidence [1] unlike Myers Briggs [2].
Yes indeed, many of us do. Nearly everyone I've ever dated gets mad at me at some point because I can't keep cookies in the house or I will eat them all. You are far from alone, and in fact I suspect the overwhelming majority of people are the same. Hence the obesity epidemic.
Personally I find that my self-control is limited to the same extent that my time and energy are limited. If I'm tired, it's harder for me to be disciplined, and the place that I most often tired is at home at the end of the day, when temptation to over eat is at the greatest. I believe there is a fairly substantial body of evidence that shows I am not unusual in this regard. This phenomenon is why groceries stores put candy in checkout lanes, when you are mentally tired from exercising discipline by not picking up the delicious-looking tray of cupcakes in the bakery aisle and thus are most susceptible to temptation.
I think some people can just use willpower to maintain their discipline in every situation, but those people are extreme outliers. Like Navy SEALs or Olympic athletes or other extreme high performers, and not even all of them. Those who can are experts at delayed gratification and are able to visualize what they want and then never deviate from their plan for how to achieve it, regardless of their current emotional state or energy levels. But that is vanishingly rare and often their behavior is a result of some deep trauma (eg someone who is super disciplined about their diet because their dad died early from an obesity-related illness) rather than a positive focus on a certain outcome. The truth is that the vast majority of people just follow their natural inclinations and do whatever is easiest for them. The path of least resistance.
As one such weak-willed person, my approach has been to structure my life to remove temptations, much as the GP comment above described their approach to curating their internet content. For example, I have lived almost exclusively in big cities for my entire life until the last year, when I moved to the middle of nowhere. Which means I can't get takeout food delivered and it's much harder to go out and get ice cream on a whim. Compared to living in a major city where I could get Michelin star restaurant food delivered in a matter of minutes, the temptation is just much, much less powerful. I order my groceries online too, which also dramatically reduces the tendency to impulse buy anything unhealthy (I get to skip the checkout lane with the candy, for one thing). On the other side of the caloric equation, I set up a home gym so that travel time to the gym doesn't become an excuse not to exercise. Basically I add barriers for bad choices and remove them for good ones. I am in the best shape of my life as a result.
I guess what I'm saying is that most people achieve good behaviors in part because of their intentional discipline and in part because their environment is conducive to those behaviors. The real trick is figuring out how to intentionally structure your environment to match whatever behaviors you want. It's effectively borrowing motivation from your peak-energy level periods to provide discipline during periods when you don't have the energy to generate it yourself. It can be incredibly hard to figure out, because you need to know how to change your environment and how you will actually react to that new environment, which isn't always predictable.
An easy way to have self control is to switch to a keto-like diet. You don't even have to count calories and carbs in most cases. There's a variant called lazy keto, where you just stick to approved foods and don't need to count. It's surprisingly hard to overeat on things like cauliflower and pork chops.
Be wary however of the more "extreme" advice on keto-like diets. You don't have to stuff yourself with fats, or put a stick of butter in your coffee.
100% this. People often ask me "How do you stick with keto? It's such a strict diet." I always answer: "It's actually one of the easiest diets: the answer to most 'can I eat this?' question is 'no'."
There isn't a persistently high cognitive load on deciding what you can eat, once you master the foundational knowledge of eating low-carb.
That usually happens because people use stimulants to accelerate energy burn and it dries you out, and when your body, especially your mouth, get dry, you will get bad breath immediately. If you want to test this out for yourself, try brushing your teeth while you feel very dehydrated. Your breath will smell bad soon after.
This is terrible advice. Any fads are. Ketogenic diets are not good for you in any way.
Bad behaviour starts with acknowledgement and the best way to do that is to track what you eat and learn to adapt slowly and develop self discipline. Use a tracker app and set a reasonable daily break even nutritional target and start thinking about what you eat. Slowly substitute better choices in. Eventually you will develop self control.
People want quick fixes but keto just breaks other things.
This is a very low effort, unsourced listicle, that is probably wrong on several points. Disregarding that, I was more curious about how this particular person managed to get hospitalized.
True enough, but it does outline the potential nutritional shortfalls of extreme food regimes, most of which I was aware of. It seemed to sum up most of the obvious shortfalls - I was only passingly interested and this was a low hanging answer. I have seen numerous extreme diets. Many of which are OK in the short term - but not in the longer term. Unless the OP replies - I have no idea in detail what befell him?
Keto can definitely cause constipation under some circumstances, but I'd be dubious about linking it to fibre. Fibre also doesn't count towards carbs, so it's not something that you can't have.
The key thing you do in a keto diet, entering a state of ketogenesis, can cause massive complications for diabetic people due to ketoacidosis.
Unfortunately a lot of people who would be interested in dieting and trying out a keto diet are diabetic. It's not always dangerous, but it's generally not a good diet for diabetic people because of this.
This is incorrect. I'm a Type 1 Diabetic and in my opinion keto diet is probably the healthiest diet a diabetic can be on.
Ketoacidosis is a result of extremely high blood sugar for a prolonged period of time combined with ketosis. The reason this happens is that without insulin your body cannot use the sugar in your blood so your blood sugar keeps going up and your body doesn't get any energy out of it.
What happens when your body is out of fuel for a couple of days? It enters ketosis and starts to burn fat. Ketons mixed with sugar in your blood will acidify blood, this is ketoacidosis. It's an extremely dangerous condition.
However, if a diabetic is on keto diet they will have low blood sugar and their body will enter regular ketosis almost eliminating the need for insulin and ensuring a stable healthy blood sugar.
In other words, a diabetic will end up in ketoacidosis if they're bad at controlling their blood sugar, regardless of their diet. However, if they are on keto diet the chance that their blood sugar will be very high is extremely small. High blood sugar is the killer, not ketosis.
I've been doing a keto diet on and off for a number of years. When I'm in ketosis my blood sugar is steady in 80-100 range and I don't need almost any insulin.
Yeah, you absolutely don't need to overthink keto once you have a good idea of what foods provide the ideal set of nutrients that you need. You just have to keep those foods stocked, and eat whatever you have on hand when you're hungry, until you stop being hungry. As for avoiding junk food, just STAY OUT OF THE JUNK FOOD AISLE. Don't walk through there, don't daydream about chocolate, make a conscious effort to keep it out of sight, and it will be out of mind. That part takes some self-discipline, but once you make the conscious decision to keep it out of sight, your mind will go wander to some other distraction or stimulus and you will forget about it, and it will become a habit soon.
The truly hardest part of all of this in general is finding a suitable form of substitute stimulus that keeps you from being driven to seek your default vices. The unfortunate part is that there are not a lot of accessible/healthy things in life that provide the adequate stimulus that we seek/need in order to feel "okay". We're drawn towards drugs and junk food and etc because it's easy to acquire and satisfies our needs for stimulus in the short term.
We tend to keep doing what we are already doing (an inertia of sorts). If we are eating, we keep on eating (even if we are not hungry anymore) until an external factor stops us (e.g. the food is over).
Changing states (starting/stopping) is the hardest part, but if you trick yourself somehow to stop it's easy to just put the food aside. The question that remain is how do you stop yourself from doing what you are currently doing? Some people use an "1,2,3 technique", where you just count to yourself and once you reach three you start doing what's needed. Mindfulness also helps, where you take a breath and think exactly what you are doing and why (I am eating, I am putting my hand in the bag of chips, I am bringing the chip to my mouth even if I am not hungry and don't even enjoy it that much, this would just make me feel fat afterwards).
To me, part of it is being mindful. Don't open the bag of chips and then watch a movie or surf the net while munching on them. You will eat the whole bag.
If I mode change from sitting in front of the computer to standing in the kitchen eating the chips and then mode change to back in front of the computer, I don't mindlessly consume the whole bag. But I will still sometimes consume the whole bag.
One thing I have also tried to do is differentiate between "I want chips because I'm hungry" vs "I want chips because I'm craving salt". It's not easy for me to tell the difference. I coat some baby carrots in salt or Old Bay seasoning and munch a few--if that keeps the munchies away, my body wanted salt. If I'm hungry again 15 minutes later, well, my body wants calories.
Nevertheless, I'm mostly in the camp of "Just don't have chips/cookies in the house". It also helps that I learned to bake as a child. I like tasty desserts, and most of what now exists is mostly sugar overload with no flavor. So, a dessert easily sets off my "Is this dessert tasty enough to merit skipping two entire steaks <or insert whatever main course you like> to compensate?" And, if my that activates, the answer is almost always a resounding "No." and I skip dessert.
Unfortunately for me, I found a middle eastern place that does homemade Baklava with a cream filling. It's right next to a Mexican restaurant that I also find quite nice. This is a bad thing for my waistline.
This is me so bad. I have it in the good and bad ways.
In the good I will run couple marathons a month and in the bad I will eat whatever I can find.
I always felt like an outcast, good to hear I am not alone :)
For media consumption it is exactly the same. The good is that I get to the nitty gritty of technical problems. But I also read the unless crap till no end.
I have been able to ditch Twitter, reddit, Facebook and Instagram but I just substitute it with hackernews and YouTube.
Haha. Same here.
I have gotten back into reading though. That took a while because I lost the ability to concentrate on books as I grew more dependent on streaming and social media.
Its been about a year now, since I left all the major social media hubs, got incredibly selective on daily news (only one local media outlet and a couple of polar opposite international ones that I pay for) and cut down on watching streaming services, that I started to be able to concentrate on reading books again.
I grew up reading everything I could get my hands on.
I missed it terribly.
HN and youtube still stick. Mostly tutorials, workouts or info videos ( Andrew Huberman, justforfunc, 3blue1brown etc. ) on youtube though.
Same, but with books and audiobooks I just misuse them in the same way, feels like consumption addiction, even though, like you, it is all in the selfhelp / tutorial / learning space.
My default method of weight control is not to have unhealty food and alcohol in the house except for weekends. In the office I only have healthy food available. It works and I have gotten used to it - mainly because my anything goes weekends act as a great pressure release valve.
Yup, dashcam videos / crashes is a huge time sink which I have to ruthlessly unsubscribe from. It's one of those things where you can feel your blood pressure increase as you watch it.
I used to spend a lot of time on youtube, in part because I had the free time to spend on it, and had gaps in my schedule that were convenient for watching certain content creators.
Since moving into the workforce, my free time is no longer segmented into so many pieces. I don't get as much value as I used to from 10 to 15 minute chunks of entertainment, so I stop keeping up with the sources, and just lose touch.
It isn't that the content I'm leaving behind is bad or 'cheap', it's just that I don't have the time and attention to keep up with most of it. My entertainment time is better spent on stuff that takes longer to engage with/consume, since those bigger things are often more valuable as entertainment.
I'm coming to a realization across all facets of my life, where I am interested or engaged in many more things than I have time for. I am starting to prepare myself for the uncomfortable process of sacrificing a few (in fact, many) things I've previously mentally and emotionally invested in, but I know it's going to be a big shift and the dread causes my feet to drag. There's just not enough time... and I don't believe that the solution is "improve focus and productivity" because that's a fast track to burnout and disengagement for all but the most obsessive of minds.
Curiosity can be a curse, and has killed several cats.
I may have been on psychedelic mushrooms at the time, but something I took away from the trip was an acknowledgement of a feeling of 'shedding' in life, in terms of hobbies and interests.
Stuff will get boring and be forgotten, or fall to the side and be ignored while it collects dust. This is something that I should expect to happen, and be prepared for. So long as you derived some value from those once-great things, it hasn't been a waste, and is just a symptom of time passing.
Maybe you pick those things back up later, and maybe you don't. For myself, I think my 'best life' would be one where I had the space and tools to be able to pick up or put down whatever ideas come to me.
> I may have been on psychedelic mushrooms at the time, but something I took away from the trip was an acknowledgement of a feeling of 'shedding' in life, in terms of hobbies and interests.
I had a very similar feeling in a similar setting, like a large part of the process of life is scrubbing crusty exteriors off so that new capacities can emerge. Like continuous molting.
scrub-a-dub-dub the existential dirt from your soul, wanderer.
Somewhat related is a one-player game I'm looking at, called Thousand Year Old Vampire. Eventually, the character must choose what memories to leave behind. It's going to be a strange experience when I get to that stage.
"Out of sight, out of mind" works great for me too. It's staying occupied so that your thoughts don't meander back to that thing, that makes the trick.
Which looks at the accounts you're following, looks at the links in their bios, sees if there's an RSS feed indicated at that link, and puts the whole thing together into an OPML feed (the standard XML-of-RSS-feeds format used for RSS reader import/export, among other things).
i would love if a tool like this were made based on interactions I've had with authors. generally, i like comment or retweet content that "sparks joy".
Glitch will let you fork ("remix") and modify -- I don't know if the Twitter APIs are real friendly anymore for that open-ended of use, but it'd be worth trying :)
Facebook I left a decade ago, for its ethical issues. Instagram I left because I felt the performance aspect was unhealthy: even in my only-friends-and-family circle, I'd still care too much about picking out the perfect photo of my kid or wherever.
For Twitter I realized it was way too easy to get sucked down political/angry feeds. One day Twitter said my account has suspicious activity (maybe a bot tried to log in) and I needed to reply to an email to re-enable it. I never replied to the email. Somehow this meant that every time I followed a Twitter link, I'd get that alert, so I could never see content. I felt so much happier.
I noticed the same about myself and have been doing something similar. I haven't been as focused on cutting down things I follow (actually even increasing), instead just paying attention to what I find valuable and aggressively cutting out everything I either dislike or find superfluous and spammy (eg if I see the same post multiple times on my reddit feed, I'll quickly check the poster's profile, if they spam the same content on several subreddits regularly I'll block them even if the content is something I enjoy).
On the other hand I started following only “teaching chinese” accounts on instagram. Whenever I go on instagram I just watch stuff to learn chinese because it’s in my feed.
>I just massively unsubscribing, unfollowing, and filtering all the feeds.
Nothing has been more effective for me than this, as well unfriending/following people or accounts that actively make me angry. Had to unfollow like 10 people tops and the quality of my feeds got noticeably better.
Haven't been using social media for more than five years and it doesn't feel like I'm halfway there.
Now I am using my smartphone pretty much in the same way I was using my PC when smartphones didn't exist (e.g. 20 years ago): quite a bit of browsing and few comments here and there.
It's not that I can't do without smartphone: on holidays I can totally avoid using it for browsing. But that inevitably comes back to "normal".
And I'm pretty sure I was distracting myself with literature in a similar way when I was even younger (e.g. 25 yrs ago). I read very fast and hardly retain anything:) Is it in any way healthier? Not so sure, it feels like binge reading is as addictive and unsatisfying -- I do that nowadays (rarely) too.
In weight watchers (yes, weight watchers), we classified certain foods as "red flag foods"; these were foods that we _knew_ we could not control ourselves around. The kind of food where you have one, and then suddenly you've finished the bag/box.
I tend to agree with you: if it's there, you're going to go for it. We all have things like this. "Cleaning your plate" is a good metaphor, but I'm betting you don't "clean your plate" when it comes to exercise or other things that may be less enjoyable.
Identify the things in your life that are red flags, and consciously keep them out of your life. It's hard at first, but soon, you don't even miss them.
I think a corollary to this is the relatively modern idea that life needs purpose in the form of measurable accomplishments.
Looking back at how most people lived their lives, it was sustenance, interspersed with things like family, religion, and friendship (if you were lucky). Nearly nobody owned much, nearly nobody 'did cool things,' nearly nobody was famous.
They all just had a part of life (surviving) that they knew was bad and hard work, then they tried as hard as they could to escape that briefly.
Now, we expect work to be fulfilling and non-work to be fulfilling. For the majority of people where that isn't true, it feels really depressing, which is compounded by the fact that society pushes you to spend more time on improving the work side of things (which again for most people will not be intrinsically fulfilling no matter how hard they try), so they end up feeling lonely and sad.
This! I often let my phone run out of battery and avoid plugging it in so I can do other things.
From a similar thread, someone mentioned that phones are only good for content consumption. When I’m on the computer, I’m at least somewhat productive and the distractions aren’t quite as strong.
In the world of food it was a watershed moment for me in controlling my waistline when I stopped checking the unit price on items at the store.
The brain invents its own portion sizes that are more dependent on the size of the container than the total supply. I don't know how you introduce portion control to the Internet, but we definitely need it.
Some people have strategies for avoiding a shopping cart full of junk food. I wonder how far you can stretch that into media consumption before the analogy tears.
I waste so much time on the internet because it's easier than doing anything else. Binging YouTube videos and peoples post mortems gives me a dopamine hit akin to being productive without actually putting any work towards my goals. I hate it.
The modern internet, with ever-refreshing recommendations, is fully intended to be addicting. Possible mitigations: make it very inconvenient to repetitively view social media. Examples:
- Create UBlock rules to remove recommendations, only keeping the search bar on the youtube home page so if you want to watch a video you have to explicitly seek it out
- Redirect an address like reddit.com in /etc/hosts so it is inaccessible
- Seek out more productive forms of social media, and set loose timers for accessing them so you don't get caught in infinite scrolling
- Do not have social media apps on your phone
- Turn off internet when doing productive work if possible. Or employ context switches - one browser for fun, another for work.
I've been around since the birth of the internet, and just have been amazed with how much stuff there is to do and see and learn. Granted, there's a lot of cesspools, but lots of good wholesome stuff too. I mean, think about it - when in the history of mankind have we had so much information at our fingertips?
My completely unprofessional opinion is that almost everyone that uses the internet throughout the day has developed some form of undiagnosed ADD/ADHD.
The modern internet has broken our slowly evolved brains. We are not built to cope with these types of attention destroying activities and media. At least 20 years ago you had to sit down at a specific place and use a chunky computer. Smartphones have made it 1000x worse.
There's no easy solution. I don't think becoming a digital luddite is the answer...but we all need to be more intentional with our time.
It's not the only answer, but Cal Newport's book Digital Minimalism^1 is a good read for anyone that finds themself feeling this way.
It's not, but it will lead to some (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc).
In the same way, consuming infinite amounts of quick-hitting and dopamine-inducing social media is not a disease, but it can damage our brains and lead to "disease" in the same way that sugar damages the rest of our body.
Again, I'm not a doctor and I have no facts/evidence to share. Just my own thoughts on how things are going.
I'm reminded of Scott Alexanders musing re: whether someone "has ADD" if they have trouble focusing on things that are simply boring as fuck, like looking at spreadsheets (or code...) all day every day, week, after week, after week.
But then if all their peers are in fact outperforming them, because they're already all self-medicating for ADD symptoms, or have a prescription for ADD meds, so they can focus on something that most ordinary people would have trouble focusing on... what then?
What's normal in a work environment that's fundamentally and extremely not normal?
Given enough time abnormal becomes normal and everyone who couldn't fit in is selected out. Several thousand years ago agricultural societies were abnormal, but they allowed high population densities and were better at war so they dominated (except on the steppe).
When Henry Ford popularized the assembly line he had extremely high employee turnover. People didn't like working that way.
I remember years ago being a teenager and having limited access to computers and the internet so when I did have them I used my time to learn as much as I could.
When I didn’t, I got bored, and I picked up books. I remember reading books on history, biology, psychology, electronics, programming, etc. and learning from them, often just by flipping pages and reading passages that looked interesting. In fairness, even nowadays, it’s not uncommon for me to have a dozen Wikipedia tabs opened about random stuff that piqued my interest.
Nowadays I can’t get bored anymore. My phone is rarely out of arms reach and I own every steam game I ever wanted and a computer that can handle them.
Recently, I recall trying to work on a side project when I got stuck on a design aspect. My power went out later and with all my devices dead and I remember being bored to death, pacing around the apartment when the solution came to me.
Someone introduced me to the same idea a few years ago and it really stuck with me, "the only time people in the modern world experience boredom is in the 15 seconds before they pull out their smartphone".
It's in moments of boredom that you start having deep thoughts about the world, start thinking through solutions to problems you have, start thinking about changes you can make in your life.
I got rid of my smartphone and now the 20 minutes each day on the train where I'm "bored" are one of the most valuable parts of my day. And my mind feels much fresher after it, rather than being crammed with 20 minutes worth of mental junk food from the internet.
Teach me! How do you keep in touch with people on the go? This is the only thing that has stopped me from dumping my iPhone altogether. I sometimes leave home without it but I end up relying on others for coordination, etc -- which means I haven't liberated myself so much as fobbed off the responsibility to others.
I don't have social media (besides HN), so my main contact with people who aren't in my immediate vicinity is through sharing photos directly on iMessage and the odd article-inspired rant.
I just use a £15 nokia phone (they still make them). It calls, texts, and plays snake.
Texting on a T9 keyboard is slow but I've come to consider that a feature. Before I had a smartphone I would just text everyone, now that texting takes actual effort I find myself calling people more, or asking to meet up in person. And I find myself forming much deeper personal connections with people as a result.
>> I got rid of my smartphone and now the 20 minutes each day on the train where I'm "bored" are one of the most valuable parts of my day. And my mind feels much fresher after it,
Thats interesting - I think I lost ability to be bored even if I do not reach for phone immediately. My mind somehow switches to a strange mode where I reply random events from my life and try to come out with different plays for each interaction.
And I cannot do this if I feel discomfort - its too hot or too cold etc. And I used to think that this was boredom but now I think this was because I was distracted by environment. The real boredom is something that I vaguely remember from my early childho hit`od and I cannot get there now - my mind is to full of past interactions. The smartphone age can be somehow at fault here - maybe my brain thirsts for dompamine hit so much that it creates its own mental junk.
I recently uninstalled the social media apps on my phone and I have been noticing the number of times I reach for my phone are quite many. These are times I am just seeking stimulation of some sort, not trying to communicate or research something. Since I no longer have the apps, I just head over to settings or photos and then get so bored I just end up reading a book instead.
I’d also recommend Nicholas Carr’s 2011 book “The Shallows: What the Internet Is Doing to Our Brains”. I read it a long time ago and was impressed with its insights on attention (or the lack of it) and the usage of the Internet.
I think it's much shorter now, that article is almost 8 years old. With the ubiquity of digital cinema, I suspect the average shot length is 1.x seconds.
I'd expect that some films, at least, have an uneven distribution of cuts. Action scenes will have more cuts than non-action scenes etc. Still, it's interesting to watch these films with the shot length in mind, it can definitely be unnecessarily frenetic.
The article kind of says this, but I suspect the process of editing films and composing shots has gotten easier over the years as the industry has refined tooling and techniques. Not just CGI, but the ability to arrange and view scenes is probably much more fluid today than it used to be. This also seems like something where incremental editing improvements lead to incremental changes in shot duration.
- I forgot how time could pass outside of internet. Days were flying in-house.. yet everytime I walked to anything 5mi away.. suddenly I felt like I lived a whole life yet only 1 hour had passed.
- It reached a point where when my ISP was failing, seeing the internet box being solidly offline dilated time in the blink of an eye. I had a giant "oh god yes." screamed by my brain because I felt free.. no more F5/refresh of stuff that only satisfied me shallowly and forbid mind wandering or in-depth activities. Stunning effect an electronic pipe..
Not exactly. It's definitely not ADHD if there's no prolonged and debilitating impact. Being distracted an hour there and a couple there is not like ADHD.
ADHD would be like more like falling in a pit where one basically cannot do anything meaningful for days and days despite willing to do so (if the motivation is lost, in turn, we are talking about depression-like states).
I doubt that many of normal smartphone users get into such pits despite they appear distracted and might have an urge to get into one's smartphone.
ADD/ADHD are very much a spectrum. If someone is having trouble focusing for a few hours a day, even if it’s not literal days on end, I don’t think it’s crazy to investigate ADD/ADHD as the cause/name of the problem.
Agreed. Especially if slacking for days would quickly lead to negative consequences. ADHDs are often distracted until the very last moment when the failure becomes imminent -- and then work to avoid it.
Some times I go through periods where I do that repeatedly. Distracted and unproductive, to the point where it physically hurts, until there's no possible alternative but to work hard or fail.
I found Newport's book to be so surface level for anyone with even a passing familiarity with the problem that it wasn't worth my time.
What really helped me was these two books:
(1) The Attention Merchants by Tim Wu
(2) The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshanna Zuboff
and the nextdns.io installed on all my devices. I literally blocked Reddit, et al to break the cycle of "I just woke up so I'mm scroll until I'm fully awake" and then oops -- an hour went by.
The thing that ended up motivating me to change was reinforcing for myself the fact that I'm in this mess because very smart people have designed systems to exploit me. Fuck that. I'm in control of my attention.
The first thing I did is move my phone out of the bedroom. This helped break the habit of picking it up right away in the morning, and created some friction. I keep it on my desk on a charger.
The second thing I did was decide on a few things I had to do before picking up my phone for the first time in the morning. This like a game, where I started with one thing and then built up more, to see how many things I could get done before checking my messages. I started with taking a shower. Then I added walking the dog, then coffee, then breakfast... now I'm up to the point where my entire morning routine has to happen before I pick up my phone.
It's not easy. I'm not perfect at this, and there are days when I go back to bad habits. (In this context, I use "bad habits" to mean "habits that prevent me achieving the goals I set for myself). That's why I block certain websites still, for myself, to help from getting back into those habits.
I have diagnosed ADHD and I can waste just as much time on my amateur radio as the Internet. I guess we get a pass due to the technical neediness, but I spent 3 hours yesterday listening to static trying to hear a specific station…
ADHD is a developmental condition which is highly genetic and relates to neurotransmitter brain chemistry (Dopamine / Norepinephrine). People with ADHD have it their whole life, it's not something you can develop in adulthood. However, people can be (commonly are) diagnosed in adulthood, especially for the inattentive subtype which has less outward symptoms.
What can change or develop over time is the life circumstances that a person with ADHD finds themselves in. Circumstance can make the difference between ADHD being a disorder with significant impairments vs a joyful and creative existence.
Situations which demand executive function, like putting down that mobile phone or closing youtube in favor of doing something more productive are much harder for people with ADHD. The market built by the tech industry to transact human attention for profit certainly hasn't helped here.
According to the CDC/DSM-5, people with ADHD simply have enough of the described ADHD symptoms, and most importantly "interferes with functioning or development."
We don't yet know enough about the brain besides that people have different brain makeups and respond to different stimuli differently. We don't quite know what causes ADHD but we can group the overall symptoms together to try and treat them.
That said, plenty of the criteria in the DSM-5 can be as a result of our modern lifestyles. I talked to multiple psychiatrists/therapists who had consensus that I had ADHD. I tried all the different meds, none of them really helped. The only thing that did was changing my lifestyle. Completely eliminating some addictive habits that wrecked my response/reward circuits (porn and addictive video games) (still a work in progress but it helps). Structuring my life for more consistency and setting up a system that would prevent me from dropping into the negative ADHD habits.
I recommend reading ADHD 2.0 by Dr Halowell. Everyone's journey is different and I don't want to take away from people who get serious improvements from traditional ADHD treatments. But ADHD is a spectrum, and it's unfortunate that many of the traits that come with ADHD cause negative outcomes for our modern society, but it's really just a different functioning of the brain. Some activities exacerbate the negative outcomes, and some can reel them in. Like most other things, I believe ADHD is partly genetic and partly behavioral. The weight differs from person to person. One of those you can't control, and one you (sort of) can
I'm not sure we're disagreeing here? As I understand it, some people have a certain kind of distractable brain and there's an underlying brain chemistry implicated here which isn't something you develop in adulthood.
However, having this brain chemistry doesn't necessarily mean a person suffers impairments in daily life: impairments are highly situational.
I suppose - to the extent that the DSM-5 requires a fair level of impariment for someone to be diagnosed with ADHD - that it's technically correct to say people can develop this in adulthood: there it passes from a syndrome to an disorder. (Personally I feel it's kind of absurd not to have a name for the syndrome if it occurs in the absence of impariment due to life circumstances! Perhaps this will be "fixed" one day as psychology slowly becomes more quantitative.)
As it's a developmental issue, you can't get it once your brain is fully developed.
However, your circumstances change as you become an adult and once well managed symptoms can start showing. You don't see impaired decision making when you can ask your parents about everything. You're not late when mom makes sure you get out one time. You manage all 2-3 household chores you have, but crack when you get 20-30. You manage your pocket money well enough, but not so much a full adult budget. You're fine when you know what you're supposed to be doing (the homework for tomorrow), but adult life gets you overwhelmed. Etc. Etc.
I think the last couple years have been especially bad. We've had a pandemic that isn't 100% over that removed a lot of the non-Internet interactions from most people's lives, we have a major land war in Europe now that could turn into a civilization-ending nuclear war at the drop of a hat, we had a contentious election in the U.S. about a year and a half ago that culminated in the Capital being ransacked, we've had ongoing droughts, wildfires, and heat waves that will probably just keep getting worse, we have supply chain disruptions, and so on.
It's really no wonder people are paying attention to the Internet, because at any moment some new calamity will be upon us. (It was kind of also true for me during the Trump presidency: I felt compelled to check the political news multiple times a day as if somehow my personal supervision and online comments would keep Trump from doing anything too crazy.) I've started to wonder if I'm exhibiting ADD-like symptoms, and I'm also wondering if it's not just me, that it's happening to most people at the same time.
Maybe things will go a little bit back to normal as in-person social interaction ramps back up. (I'm in the Portland area. Here, Covid restrictions are basically over but a lot of people are still operating in a pandemic mode. We've just now been allowed to work from our cubicles again, and only a couple of my coworkers actually do it on kind of a once-a-week cadence.) I don't think things are going back to anything like what I'd like to think of as normal, though. The world's just a really turbulent place right now.
I spoke to a fairly well respected psychologist about exactly the issue OP was describing. He felt that the issue was really poor impulse control and suggested introducing delays between action -> reward.
He thought it wasn't ADHD because I don't otherwise get distracted if I'm engaged (watching a movie in a theater, cooking etc) and can generally see the task through to the end.
Note: watching a movie in a theater is, for me, a totally different experience to watching it at home. At home there's always an option to pick up the phone in the middle or walk away and do something else whereas at the theater I don't have that option. I can very easily watch a full movie at the theater but it's been a fairly long time since I was able to watch a full movie at home in one go.
As someone with actual ADHD, before I had internet, I could waste hours reading the TV guide or pacing my room bouncing a ping-pong ball.
However, when I actually have something to do, when I'm with friends or on a vacation, I barely remember my smartphone exists. But again, at the end of a 2-week vacation, I catch myself doing the same things routinely and mindlessly, without enjoying them as much.
Basically, when I'm tired or something, my brain goes for a quick dopamine fix which requires the less effort and, very importantly, the less deciding. The "beauty" of social media, is that they free you from the decision. On Wikipedia, you have to decide what to read, but social media give you a nice platter of content: "here's a tip for straining pasta, here's a nine-year-old who died."
If there's a started jigsaw puzzle on the coffee table, I'll go for that. A Duolingo lesson pending, a book laying around, sweets in the pantry, a small enough cleaning task...
> but we all need to be more intentional with our time.
Yes. Think how you want your time to be spent. Then make the hard easy, and make the easy hard. Make a "dopamenu" of fun/relaxing/satisfying stuff to do when you need a break.
I’ve been thinking about this for some time, since so many people (including me) seem to struggle with this, even while being completely aware of our behavior.
I think legislation should force social networks to:
- have a reverse chronological timeline for your network
- optionally disable any algorithmic recommendations
Social Media companies are mostly unrestricted in the current legislation system while they are trying their hardest to maximize user engagement.
Just like the use of certain drugs this something some people can’t responsively deal with themselves, hence it should be regulated.
And probably my idea is not very fleshed out, but I think something has to be done, and it has to come from states as the companies themselves can’t be held responsible.
For me at least I feel like there's a difference between being unproductive due to doomscrolling $socialMedia and being unproductive due to a more 'traditional' way of "wasting" (as in not being productive) time. Spending time on a grassfield in the sun is just as unproductive as doomscrolling, yet it feels a whole lot different. One feels abusive and abrasive to the soul; the other is relaxing and soothing. All while being unproductive. There may be a lot more layers to this productivity conundrum than being just a productivity boolean.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned ADHD yet. It's not clear-cut or anything, but I recently just went through diagnosis and testing and mentioned this behavior. For me, I tend to resort to this behavior when I can't summon the focus to work on things I know I SHOULD be doing, so I end up scrolling for hours instead, because there's so much less inertia to overcome there.
It may be worth talking with your family doctor about. If so, there's medication and/or targeted coaching that can help significantly.
I am addicted to twitter and reddit. Especially reddit. It often takes the place of reading, hobbies, quiet moments, improving my home, talking with my spouse, and playing with my baby.
When reddit records a click or an upvote, it thinks it has been a Good Product, and created Engagement. Reddit then takes those feedback loops and tunes the algorithm and feedback loops to create further engagement.
But in reality, there's almost no positive relationship between my engagement with social media and my personal human flourishing. I think these products are mostly poison for my soul.
I’m the same, and I’ve been struggling with it for a couple of years. I’ve even addressed it in therapy, and it hasn’t helped. The only thing that has helped at all is a site blocker.
Twitter and HN mostly fill me with frustration, loathing, and angst. Like the cigarettes I smoke fill me with tar and carcinogens. Reddit at least I occasionally find something interesting, due to carefully curated subs.
There are a lot of incredibly frustrating, problematic, and exasperating opinions and personality types to be found on HN. The particular members of any of those sets will differ based on the eyes of the beholder.
There's no shortage of passive aggression, angst, oneupsmanship,virtue signaling, dogwhistling, etc. It just so happens that there's a sufficient about of incredibly useful opinions and comments from subject matter experts that make it worth consuming in spite of the fact that it's a forum on the internet, and all of the baggage that entails.
(side note: this isn't intended as a dig on HN moderation - you probably all do a better job than most other venues. kudos.)
100% agree, which I do not take for granted. Niche communities in reddit used to be that way. Not it's an overwhelming abundance of low effort content like "me too", "tree fiddy", "and then I took an arrow to the knee"
For me, reddit is the one that gets me angry. It's addicting, but also seems like teenagers and bots arguing with it each other. Instagram is increasingly inundated with ads, but at least I get to see thirst traps and cute animals.
Youtube is the only social media site that I think is a net positive on my life, because I learn so much, but I've started going for runs again because I really need time away from a screen and the constant dopamine hits.
> seems like teenagers and bots arguing with it each other
Yeah that helped me with getting over the addiction. Most people dont care about your opinion, you aren't going to change anything, if some dumb teenager thinks they're smart (even though they're wrong) just let them be.
I am absolutely caught in a loop between refreshing reddit, hopping to twitter, hopping to Instagram, and then back to reddit — a cycle that takes just long enough for all three platforms to re-popluate with more content.
It's not healthy, and I feel bad about it.
They have got me exactly where they want me.
And like you, it's very clear that this is not conducive to human flourishing. Unfortunately, I've been caught in this, and similar loops for so long that I have a hard time knowing what flourishing even looks like anymore.
EDIT: One thing that did help me, for a time, was finding a REALLY good book, one that completely sucked me in—in this case it was David Mitchell's latest, 'Utopia Avenue'. It's been a long time since I found a really fantastic book, when you do, there's nothing better.
And I realized that the next morning, when you wake up after a long evening of reading a good book, you remember it. You remember it as being a great use of time, something you can be proud of.
An evening spent scrolling through social media is never memorable. It's never something you're proud of, something you want to tell people about.
A good night with a good book is a good use of time.
A possible experiment to try: what happens when you only browse Reddit through an anonymous, not-logged-in browser and IP address? And then only use your account when you are actually sure you want to post something?
> But in reality, there's almost no positive relationship between my engagement with social media and my personal human flourishing. I think these products are mostly poison for my soul.
This is why "engagement" is something only corporate f---splats say under normal circumstances. Either they secretly know it's a form of psychological enslavement or they're oblivious to the problems inherent in trying to measure it.
my problem with reddit (and here i guess?) is idk what else to do with like 5-30minutes of down time. I dont really have my life optimized for constant activity and idk what else to fill that with now.
Be bored. I’m not good at this yet, but I’m practicing just sitting there in those idle periods. It’s what we evolved to do, and what our phones are breaking us about
I almost never regret time spent reading a book. But I frequently regret time spent on Reddit/Youtube/Twitter, even if I enjoyed the content at the time.
I'm more likely these days (as the decades pile up) to deliberately stop reading a book, if it hasn't engaged me by the time I've read 20% of it. Of course, many never get started, once I do a quick scan.
I estimated how many more books I would likely read before I die, and it's a shockingly small number, even though I read a lot! So - choose wisely.
As a married husband (almost 20 yrs) and father of five kids, allow me to share some wisdom. Spouse time is vital to a healthy, strong, vibrant, lasting relationship. Reddit doesn't care about you like your spouse does. And kids grow up way too fast. Treasure every moment.
>> Spouse time is vital to a healthy, strong, vibrant, lasting relationship
Hear! Hear! This cannot be overstated.
>> And kids grow up way too fast. Treasure every moment.
And this on the other hand ... works only if You somehow like children (and who does not like small psychopats with dictatorial aspirations). For the others (I believe most of people who lives in my housing estate can be counted) I observe that the moments they really treasure are those when their children are is safe distance from them taking care of themselves.
Interestingly, not caring about your children will likely result in little dictators. You might not want to give them attention, they do want it, and they'll get it one way or another.
Yeah it seems like with my own children good behavior is proportional to attention. They don't ask for much, but they don't like feeling like they're in my way. If I treat them decently, they'll let me do the things I need to do, and they know I'll come back to finish up with them later.
could not agree more with this. social media exists out there, but spouse and kids are right in front of you each and every day. when done correctly, seeing the growth of your family and spending time with them can be extremely rewarding, even more than the dopamine produced by interacting with the social media
The danger is that the social media provides a moderate dopamine hit but at nearly no “risk” - whereas many other situations provide a higher hit but at a much larger risk: the kid may be cranky, your spouse might be having a bad day, etc.
We tune our activities for the minimization of risk. Perhaps adding a random chance to ban you for browsing would help add some risk back in.
I find time passing subjectively much faster when there are close long-term daily social connections (even remote), although maybe that’s just me getting older.
I would encourage you to not think of this in an addiction framework. Instead think of this as a self medicating framework.
Why are you choosing reddit over spending time your baby? Do you fear handling the baby? Does handling the baby make you feel uncomfortable thoughts or feelings?
Is there something, like ego, that reddit gives you?
This is a good problem for self journaling, working with someone, or whatever your preferred form of self introspection is.
Chronic media consumption is not always based on avoidance. It is very easy to open social media during genuine downtime "for 5 minutes" only for an hour to pass before you know it. That is just bad self control due to dopamine addiction.
It gives a constant stream of novelty and instant gratification, two things the human mind is deeply biased to crave, delivered through an interface produced by decades of A/B testing and applied behavioral psychology.
It tastes good. People really like it. Given the choice between rice cakes and chocolate, you'd probably choose chocolate. Chocolate manufacturers test chocolates and release the more successful ones.
Does chocolate have teams of behavioral psychologists designing every aspect of the experience of its acquisition and consumption in order to create a situation in which a huge chunk of our society is unable to stop compulsively consuming it to a point where it's negatively affecting their lives?
Everyone else replying to you is trying to convince you with arguments that reddit isn't a good use of your time. As you already know, this won't work. You're already convinced.
The only thing that works is a site blocker. It actually works. Convince yourself that the block is permanent. Delete the app. This of course won't completely stop you, because you could always unblock yourself. But it'll stop you from mindlessly pulling up reddit.
If you can't control your reddit consumption already I'd expect that the site blocker will end up disabled before long. I'd try to involve a therapist if the goal is getting to the bottom of this beyond even reddit or websites in general.
Start a habit tracker tracking # of days not browsed reddit. you can trick your brain, since it loves streaks. also tie it to some reward mechanism so it seems like you're earning something by not browsing vs a punishment.
Sometimes a simple "pattern interrupt" can break the cycle. If you've a habit of opening the page whenever you hop on your phone, that extra effort may be enough to push back against the potential incentive
Anecdotally, a lot of digital addictions come down to ease of access vs dopamine hit. As soon as your access method is "futz with a hosts file" or "ask your wife to unlock the blocker" (I was pretty bad), it becomes easier to break the cycle.
More people need to utilise their tendency toward lazyness, I swear
I had a similar addiction to reddit a couple of years ago, especially while I was in college. It just became something I did as part of my routine. In hindsight I don't know why, since I rarely had a good time on there. It felt like everyone was an asshole, the content was all repeats of the same shitty jokes and fake stories from people desperately trying to farm internet points. It all felt pathetic, and I knew it at the time, but something kept bringing me back.
So one day I decided to just delete my account, and that was it. As soon as the account disappeared, so did my interest in the site. It was like a switch flipped in my head. I guess it was the internet points that were tickling the addiction part of my brain?
Next time I find myself wasting too much time on a social network, I'm just going to delete the account and move on. Unfortunately, I don't think HN lets you delete your account, so I'll need to get creative if I decide to drop this site too (maybe do something to get myself banned?)
>In hindsight I don't know why, since I rarely had a good time on there.
Someone told me once that addiction is built more strongly with negative experiences and it blew my mind. I think it's probably true.
Addiction isn't built by you getting a reward, it's built by you desperately chasing a reward you never quite reach. We call a book a "page turner" not because it's a satisfying book, but because every chapter ends in some bullshit cliff hanger. Same applies to TV shows.
I would suggest that maybe you weren't addicted to reddit because it was actually giving you what you wanted, but because you were chasing some satisfaction that you never quite got. Satisfied users leave a site happy after 5 minutes and get on with life. People who have spent 2 hours opening 200 threads and still haven't got the happy feeling they came there for stay around to open "just one more thread" another 50 times.
Others have said, but spending time with your spouse is important. But, equally important (and it's a big part of having a good relationship) make sure you're stepping up and pitching in around the home with the chores.
Nobody likes them, but if you're not doing 50/50 (or at least something mutally recognised as fair) and you don't occasionally overachieve to give your spouse a bit of a break, it can be a big issue. If Reddit/Twitter are prioritised over getting the basics done, get that sorted out.
> I think these products are mostly poison for my soul.
You spend time on reddit because you want to. It seems unproductive to tell yourself that you don't.
You have a cognitive disonance, logical contradiction that you just need to bring to the surface and follow through. When you are about to reddit ask yourself whether you want to or not. Not some idealized version of yourself in your head. Just what do you want right now.
Then debug, introspect. Eliminate wishful thinking and accept reality - more time on reddit less time for other things. Do I want that?
Answer yes is perfectly fine. You do what you want anyway, but in my case simply bringing these contradictions to my conscious mind (and sometimes looking for a moment where it is exactly - like, I know that it's A or B I can't be spending time on both things at the same time, If I want to learn X it requires time) is enough to eliminate them.
I still spend time on reddit (not that much), but I don't think I'm doing anything I don't want to do or that it would be better to do anything else.
We are always doing what we want to. Telling ourselves that we don't is needless suffering.
Replace "reddit" with "heroine" and not much changes, except to the same effect.
I like to think of it as "I can't stop scrolling Reddit despite knowing I'm not enjoying Reddit". I deleted the Reddit app, and blocked reddit.com (which I found myself using next) to 0 minutes on Digital Well-being (on stock Android).
Addiction is just a pattern, a framework of looking at reality. You could say you are suffering addiction withdrawal when you are away from somebody or some place you love.
Addiction framework and associated solutions seem to be pretty effective for things like stopping heroin usage.
Quite likely it can work for reddit too, but I'm guessing PC already tried it.
I'm just offering a different framework and way of looking at things, which works great for me - or to be even more precise, removes some suffering. One may just decide she wants to spend a lot of time on reddit, but being honest with oneself and trying not to hold logically contradicting things in one's head seems like a good thing.
Its just your association with the term pattern. Or maybe mine. To me, love, death and myself are just some patterns too.
I mean just something that we name. If we look at a tree and I say its crown forms a nice sphere, I'm not treating trees like geometric objects and I can still appreciate its beauty and marvel.
Observing the same reality you can see it through different frameworks consisting of different patterns. The same tree can be seen as color palette for a designer, bunch of areas with different living conditions for microbiologist, shapes for painter, material for woodworker etc.
Once you divide reality to some patterns in a certain way (what I call a framework) when somebody suggests different division we usually don't throw away existing one, so we subdivide our patterns based on what's somebody is saying instead of looking at a whole thing and then the other framework usually seems like a detail, not important, worse, less useful.
Being able to abandon your preferred framework for a moment allows too see the same things differently.
E.g. I can have a long conversation with somebody who deeply believes in God, (we skip the church bit for a moment) and if I substitute just a name of the pattern, if I do s/God/Universe, it turns out our worldview is virtually identical despite me being an atheist.
I think there's some value in most of what you're saying. Your overall proposal, etc etc.
But when you say "You could say you are suffering addiction withdrawal when you are away from somebody or some place you love", you demonstrate that you have no idea what addiction is. No idea.
With respect, I strongly advise you to not say things like that. It's super wrong (which is okay but sub-optimal), you look dumb (which is bad for you), and it's hurtful to other people (which is bad for other people).
I hope you can continue to be naive about addiction for your entire life.
I have seen some forms of addiction up close, but I think the term is more general and we shouldnt taboo every with which some people have extremely bad emotional association with.
IMO I should be able to say I was forced to do some work even if I wasnt in a concentration camp myslef. Or that it bugs me that something is messy even if I dont have extreme OCD.
Internet addiction is a normalized term and I think withdrawal fron losing somebody you love or even a place can be more accute.
Also I'm sorry about whatever you had to experience related to addiction.
It sounds like you're mixing up the casual, colloquial use of addiction ("I'm addicted to key lime pie") with the medical term ("i suffer from addiction"). The latter is not just a failure of willpower and is qualitatively different from the former.
You can use either, but if people think you mean the latter and you start arguing points that only apply to the former, expect pushback.
Perhaps I should have added "given restrictions of reality"? I mean you can have diarrhea and be currently shitting your pants. And you may not want to do that. Seems like a stronger argument than equaling heroin to reddit. But in both cases your options are limited. From those, you choose what you want. And you are then doing what you want to do (with or without telling yourself that you don't really want to do that - whether that's shooting heroin, going to rehab or changing your pants). If your argument is that what you want was not available as an option, then your problem is wishful thinking. Reality is what it is. You are here now.
As far as I understand it, a heroin addict, at times when he's not craving and has some choice, has a choice to continue doing it or to go through hell and then some. I doubt there is much cognitive dissonance before dosing. But I just don't know this context enough (except for the fact that random dude view's on life are very unlikely to help).
But in general yes, if you murder people you can apply this thinking too. You will either decide that's not what you want or have less cognitive dissonance while doing it. Happily slashing without thinking that you don't really want to do that.
I'm not selling any cure, just suggesting that there seem to be no need to ever think "I don't want to do this" and then do it. And I mean it. From cleaning up shit from the floor, through putting your dog down to going to a funeral.
It seems that you may be unfamiliar with the concept of compulsion. All you've done is water down the word "want" to meaninglessness and uselessness. It distinguishes nothing in your theory.
> As far as I understand it, a heroin addict, at times when he's not craving and has some choice, has a choice to continue doing it or to go through hell and then some.
No, not at all. I think your understanding depends strongly on your ignorance on that subject.
The dangerous thing about reddit is the fact that it has these wonderful nuggets of information. Some really thoughtful opinion, or some unique perspective on things. I always use the example of someone writing essentially an essay on how to make neapolitan pizza [1], including a list of references, one of them being a scientific article. Where would I find this in a book or on the internet? Blog sites and similar things usually are only there to sell ads or something else, are padded with fluff or simply wrong. Here I have someone anonymous without any ulterior motive, without fluff, just exactly what I want: pure information in a useful structure.
Similarly you can sometimes find really cool answers on /r/askscience or /r/askhistorians.
Of course, this is in stark contrast to the vast amounts of low quality posts from people posting thoughtless one-liners while they are waiting on the bus, sitting on the toilet or about to fall asleep. Not to mention many toxic comments. But every now and then I find these little nuggets which keep me hooked.
I weaned myself off reddit by blocking everything except i.reddit.com in my hosts file. if i blocked everything, inevitably there would be some post that I'd need to read because i stumbled upon it on google or what have you.
Now, if I really want to read a reddit post, I can. but half of the links break unless you manually change the url to include the "i." subdomain again, the interface isn't so great, but I can access all the content if i really want to, it's just inconvenient enough that you're not going to mindlessly scroll for all eternity
I totally blocked Reddit in my hosts file. If I really need a post work purposes I go to Google translate, load the post and click 'see original'. Such a hassle that I hardly ever do it. YMMV.
I think its funny that we both stumbled on a similar approach
I'm addicted to reddit too. But before that I was addicted to newsgroups and other web forums. I dont think I can blame Reddit app, I think I just love talking with people online. What I've learned is that most people really dont care about my opinion. I now only comment on stuff that I have something useful to bring, and its a topic that is really relevant to the board/thread. Those rules can cut back commenting a lot.
I logged off from Twitter and Reddit and blocked it with Leechblock NG [1] on my computer. That took care of 50% of the problem. I would still browse them on my phone.
When I switched phones I decided to not install Twitter or Reddit on the new one for a week.
After getting over some FOMO on the first week, I decided to extend it for 1 month.
I have been "clean" for ~7 months now. Except for the occasional direct link from my mobile phone, and fortunately thanks to the ingrate mobile experience their webs provide, I will probably keep doing this for a while.
I find other ways to distract myself, though (other websites, doing random queries in google, etc). I am working on the underlying problems I have. But for me getting the distractions out of the way first was easier than the alternative.
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 345 ms ] threadSame reason some people play slot machines all day.
think this has always been true tho - mum used to buy the sunday times then read the same pages multiple times throughout the week - not sure she thought she would get something new out of them each time - it was just something cheap to do -
You just made me realize that these algorithmic feeds are quite literally a skinner box because you're exactly right.. once in a blue moon there is a recommendation, a video, or a tweet, that really is amazing and can change your perspective or give you huge amounts of enjoyment
So we click on, waiting for that next payout of gold.
I am an introvert and I like being alone and being able to choose how much I self-express and communicate. In person, I do not have as much choice about my time and energy commitment in front of company if I want to be polite. It's just easier for me to manage my social bandwidth while being on the internet.
To offer a couple of personal examples: I have to actively avoid certain types of games since it is far too easy to explore virtual worlds, gather virtual resources, and build virtual things when I would feel more productive doing something real. That something real may be as mundane as learning how to develop software more sophisticated than toy projects, simply because the product is reflects reality rather than fantasy.
The other example is my tendency to watch other people do real things, like embedded development or repairing electronics. I have the interest and I even have most of the tooling. Still, consuming is easier than creating. That is especially true after a mentally exhausting day.
I can only conclude that technology has made some things easier than others, and that it doesn't necessarily correlate with what people value. It doesn't even matter whether those values are social or asocial.
Lifting heavy weights helps one get rid of all that mental bullshit. It's a cornerstone habit. So lifting can form a base for all other beautiful stuff in your life.
It's hard to care about trivial shit on Youtube or Instagram when you just lifted dumbbells until fatigue and did some good squats.
At least that’s what happened to me. Got very strong over the years, didn’t get much happier, and then would stress out about losing any gains that were made.
Eventually I quit caring and started walking more. I feel the same.
Since my brain is usually disengaged when lifting (gotta save those calories for what matters), I rarely bother with anything 'deep' between sets.
One potential upside of this is that the threads are usually a few hours or days old before I actually read them, which means that I can expect no new content from them once I have my fill of a thread.
Substituting drugs, alcohol, shopping, cutting yourself, etc, it’s all the same root cause which is hiding somewhere deep inside yourself. Either do the work to find out what that root cause is or be held hostage by it. Took decades for me to figure it out for myself. Well, the process took decades to play out. Once the root cause was dealt with, improvement was instantaneous.
Years from now we will still be examining the after effects of years spent at the mercy of addictive user engagement algorithms.
A piece of code that crawls the net looking for something I would really enjoy is a hard problem, and I would have to code in my own biases to the program to make it work properly, and this means I couldn't share the program with others since it would be very personal and context specific.
I am aware of confirmation bias and filter bubbles, but it doesn't mean I don't like my own bubbles. It's just plain psychology afterall and we're all human, although I do try to break out of my comfort zone in terms of what content I consume, and regularly scout for different places to get my content besides The Bird Site, Reddit, FaceBuck etc
https://highbrow.se/ (Alternative search engine)
https://cora-pic.com/en (Meme generator)
https://www.mightyapp.com/ (New upcoming cloud browser)
https://ossdatabase.com/ (Database of OSS)
Gankra's work on a useful rust memory model is both fascinating and useful: https://twitter.com/Gankra_/status/1509335163045650436
This tool to convert low-complexity rust tests to proofs is interesting and something I'm glad I know exists: https://model-checking.github.io/kani-verifier-blog/2022/05/...
I'm using this code I found out about via reddit in a side project, probably less interesting to you though: https://github.com/setzer22/egui_node_graph
(Warning, videos from here on out):
Cool product demo of a futuristic debugger: https://www.hytradboi.com/2022/debugging-by-querying-a-datab...
These people also have a cool demo of splitting a single program across two different computers (frontend and backend webserver in their case). Maybe a bit less convincing than the previous one, but something I intend to watch: https://www.hytradboi.com/2022/uis-are-streaming-dags
These people have some really cool work on automatically solving physics problems (just linking to one of their talks as an example): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHhDgxkiR9c
Some of this came from HN, some from elsewhere.
This website lists the first references to some cultural icons on Usenet (for example the first time AIDS was ever discussed, first mention of a new TV cartoon "The Simpsons", etc.) http://www.eightyeightynine.com/culture/80susenet.html
The Public Domain Review, a collection and analysis of interesting stuff in the public domain https://publicdomainreview.org/
David Rumsey Historical Map Collection. I have spent many hours browsing the incredible content here. https://www.davidrumsey.com/
Artvee. Free, high quality art. https://artvee.com/
Restoration Mustang. A high quality long term journal of the restoration of a classic Mustang. Think like an /r/diy project but with way more detail and over a longer time scale. https://restorationmustang.com/
The Renegade Gardener. Highly opinionated no-bullshit gardening advice. I especially love the "Don't Do That" section. https://renegadegardener.com/
Garden Myths. There's a lot of misinformation and old wives' tales in gardening, this website cuts the crap. https://www.gardenmyths.com/
Million Short is a search engine that lets you cut out the million (or 10,000 or 100,000) top results from a search, really good for finding gems. It also has an option for removing e-commerce websites from search which is a godsend. https://millionshort.com/
This one is relevant if you live in New Zealand and love the outdoors: Can I Light a Fire? https://www.checkitsalright.nz/can-i-light-a-fire
Isn't this, in theory, what the "algorithms" are trying to do for you? They see what you interact with and try to optimize for "similar" content to surface these gems for you automatically, since it will keep you in their platform longer.
Personally, I would love to subscribe to a paid service that would produce a "daily briefing" of sorts with well curated highlights of the internet. Content aggregators have tried to get at this, but the signal to noise ratio is still way off. If someone could produce this product, I actually think it could be quite successful.
> Societies eventually develop antibodies to addictive new things. [...] It took a while though—on the order of 100 years.
> Most people I know have problems with Internet addiction. We're all trying to figure out our own customs for getting free of it.
If I have dessert in the house, like a bag of chocolate, then I eat one after dinner. If I don't have it in the house, then I just don't eat dessert.
If I have a social media feed full of content, then I'll scroll through all of it until there's nothing else that's new.
So what I've been doing is not entirely quitting Internet stuff, but instead I just massively unsubscribing, unfollowing, and filtering all the feeds. Sort of a Marie Kondo thing. I go through every subreddit I'm in, every RSS feed, every account I follow on Twitter, and i strongly consider "is this really providing lots of joy and/or value?" If not, it gets the chop.
I've cut out at least 2/3s of the stuff I was following since the peak, and it's only going down. Now when I doomscroll it's only for a few minutes. I hit the end of new content very very quickly. When that happens I start to look elsewhere. I've been reading a lot more actual books, done more chores, and been more productive overall.
As for the things I unfollowed? They clearly had no value because not only do I not miss them, I can barely even remember what they were.
When you open YouTube the recommendations are always the first thing you see, same for TikTok and Twitter (although at least you can configure it there).
Sure you can say “just don’t use recommendation systems” just as you can say “just don’t go on YouTube”.
https://github.com/tubearchivist/tubearchivist
My bookmark for YouTube is directly to my subscriptions, and it's also possible to create a android shortcut link directly to subscriptions. Occasionally, a flow will direct me to the homepage, but that's rare and I usually organically bounce back to my subs without even thinking about it.
There's always recs below a video, but again, those are rarely very interesting to me or they're things I've subscribed to anyway.
[0]: https://unhook.app/
I block recommendation sections on some site with the ublock element picker (like the "recommendations" stackoverflow puts in the right column from their other sites, completely unrelated to the current page or search terms).
I never got round to trying that with Youtube, this seems a better solution.
There is a brilliant hack to YT's urge to show you some BS. Make a bookmark of YT submissions on HN. Clear cookies. Click on any few random vids. Voila! Now YT considers you enough smart person to be shown a decent recommendations!!! (But the magic quickly disappears if you will click any BS from main because my hack does not affects the main page).
If you need it for mobile, on my mobile (Android) I downloaded Kiwi Browser so I can install that plugin.
One thing I've founds success with was getting a digital Economist subscription (confession, just a shared password). Having a steady stream of high quality content without paywall nonsense helped me replace my regular trolling around internet with something more useful and less addictive. Perhaps paying a bit for something high quality can help fill void for those dopamine seeking internet impulses.
Do lots of other folks experience this? I seem to only have self control when it hurts my job or income, and even then, barely.
I don't think we're alone but I doubt that we're "normal."
On the professional side, my ADHD/OCD makes for some clean code and pedantically-set up servers. Nothing says ADHD/OCD like taking two days to crank out code which some of my colleagues can crank out in half the time. I'm told I'm too pedantic sometimes. Too much of a perfectionist. ADHD can do that to you. I'm happy with my lot in life.
I have failed my whole life, I cannot start shit, I cannot finish anything, I'm just an impulsive monkey who is unfortunately aware of their own situation, stuck inside a body, forced to watch a deadly trainwreck in slow motion.
The little I've achieved has taken me 10x as much time as it would've a normal person. And I'm pissing it all away anyway.
This is hell.
And then I see "everyone in my life is ADHD lolkek" "I'm happy".
Sorry. Glad your case is mild enough.
Wouldn't you say that ADHD affects the person, and therefore the type of personality would change the outcome? (In contrast to ADHD defining the person)
Edit:spelling
I know the urge to beat yourself to for it is pretty strong. But the only thing you can do is regroup and try to make the rest of today better. Then start again tomorrow.
You’ve achieved something, right? Maybe it took ten times as long. That’s fine. Just keep at it. Don’t compare yourself to other people, just yourself yesterday. That’s all that can count.
It’s easier said than done. Don’t hate yourself though. Life isn’t easy, you just make the most of it. Take care.
Eating and drinking delicious high calorie things rewards your brain. On an evolutionary time scale, delicious things were relatively rare and often required expending a lot of energy to acquire. In the last 100 years or so, modern technology has shifted the typical diet to be primarily cheap, processed high calorie foods.
If you want to change your behavior, I would suggest calorie counting with a phone app. Do it every meal or snack, before you eat it. Even if you don't restrict yourself, it will make you consciously aware of your intake. You'll naturally start thinking in terms of energy intake rather than sensory intake. You'll also start to be able to correlate your emotional state to your current level of hunger rather than the other way around. "I am so hungry I could eat 300 calories of potato chips!" I did that for a few months recently and lost 8 pounds. I stopped doing it more recently, and have gained 3 back.
If you're a hipster at heart and have free time, you could also start doing more of your own food processing at home. Rather than order a pizza ever again, learn how to make a really good hand stretched pizza dough from scratch. If you really like good coffee, buy a hand grinder and whole beans, or figure out how to roast your own beans.
If you think you're eating unhealthy and having external pressure would help with your self control, maybe just go see a primary care physician and request a cholesterol check and to be screened for non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. If you have indeed been too indulgent and lethargic over an extended period of time, your cholesterol will probably read high, and you probably have fat in your liver that may be causing slightly elevated enzyme levels. A Dr. telling you to try to eat healthy may not be motivating, but quantitative data may be.
Drury reports a conversation with the famed philosopher:
> So the next day when we were alone I asked Wittgenstein to tell me more about Kierkegaard. Wittgenstein: “Kierkegaard was by far the most profound thinker of the last century. Kierkegaard was a saint.” He then went on to speak of the three categories of life-style that play such a large part in Kierkegaard’s writing: the asethetic, where the objective is to get the maximum enjoyment out of this life; the ethical, where the concept of duty demands renunciation; and the religious, where this very renunciation itself becomes a source of joy. Wittgenstein: “Concerning this last category I don’t pretend to understand how it is possible. I have never been able to deny myself anything, not even a cup of coffee if I wanted it. Mind you I don’t believe what Kierkegaard believed, but of this I am certain, that we are not here in order to have a good time.”
This is good for different reasons, such as less additives in your food which might be healthier in the long term, taste, and the pleasure in the activity itself, but is unlikely to help with weight loss. There is little difference in calorie content between two similar pizzas, home made and from a restaurant (assuming you’re not eating Domino’s cheese-stuffed crust style pizzas).
My typical dough recipe has 150g of flour and 5g sugar per pizza, which is about 550 calories. Let's say 250 calories of cheese. Raw tomato sauce isn't even worth counting. So 800 as a baseline for one pizza. Fully loading it with pepperoni might bump it up to 1000.
A few months ago I was trying to restrict myself to 1800 calories per day. We had friends over for pizza one night, and I decided to just not worry about it and gorge myself. I counted it all up before going to bed, though, and my daily intake worked out to be about 1900.
Neapolitan style pizza in particular is very thin crust, and the emphasis is on carefully chosen high quality ingredients rather than quantity. It is significantly less calorie dense than typical American pizza. Eating a whole pizza with toppings might be 1000 calories, while a single slice of cheese pizza from Costco is around 800 calories.
It's also very informative to see for yourself the ingredients going into what you're eating. Buying a can of cake frosting at the store gets you roughly the same outcome as making it from scratch using a whole stick of butter and several cups of sugar, but the latter seems more likely to influence the size of the piece you take, or at least make it obvious why you feel bleh after eating it.
When I first read about willpower being an exhaustible resource, it totally aligned with my experience. A few years later I read that those ego depletion studies had been invalidated and that surprised me. Running out of willpower seems like something I experience.
But it might be something that is subjectively felt, and people then attributed it to be something that depletes. Even if the depletion is invalidated, the subjective feeling might however still be valid. --- If I should suggest another possibility on the spot, I would suggest mental fatigue. You get tired of denying yourself things the same way you get tired of denying your kid pestering you for a treat.
It's not directly depletion, but I could subjectively describe it as a resource getting depleted.
Is there really a mental equivalent to physical exhaustion that leaves us beyond the ability to make a decision? Is that what running out of willpower would be?
Most programmers have experienced being so immersed in code that we don't notice time is passing, forgetting to eat or sleep.
It's similar with immersion in social media / food / whatever. We become lost in the activity and lose our sense of self.
I've recently heard of the concept of conscientiousness as a personality trait. People with low conscientiousness tend to procrastinate more, and it's tied to ADHD. Apparently it can be trained. I'm trying (though not really succeeding) to make pauses, take a deep breath and think about "what am I doing right now? What should I be doing instead?". Seems so basic, like I've regressed to being a child who has no self control...
> to make pauses, take a deep breath and think about "what am I doing right now? What should I be doing instead?".
this too can have its pitfalls. In my case, I always feel like I have BOTH too many things that I WANT to do and too many things HAVE to do and whenever I step back and try to look at the bigger picture, I realize that I don't feel like I'm making tangible progress on any of them. And then the anxiety sets in and I feel like, "well, if I'm working this hard and not even keeping up, why am I working at all?" And so I sort of "give up" for a few days or a week and feel even MORE guilty because literally nothing is getting done and I'm getting even further behind.
A lot of the comments I write here may sound like I really have my shit together, but that's just because I have a lot of generalized experience that just basically comes from lots of introspection and time being alive. But I have yet to figure out the one weird trick to being both productive (making progress toward future life goals) and happy (enjoying what I have in the present).
So many of our "wants" are social status goals, or social expectations.
I find it very hard to discriminate my own desires from my unconscious programming by others.
Whenever you feel pressured, try and find the root cause of the pressure?
Just an idea - perhaps damaging but hopefully enabling.
As much as I know I should prioritize it based on urgency, highest impact, what I could delegate etc., if the willpower required to do that is more than the ramifications or not doing it, it can be a losing battle.
On days when I push through a ton of work, I'm energized at the end of the day. Compared to the feeling of guilt that I just wasted a day when there's so much to do and I achieved little. Yet knowing that still just doesn't provide the necessary motivation some days. I've yet to figure out a reliable solution for it.
[1] https://www.simplypsychology.org/big-five-personality.html
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2013/mar/...
Personally I find that my self-control is limited to the same extent that my time and energy are limited. If I'm tired, it's harder for me to be disciplined, and the place that I most often tired is at home at the end of the day, when temptation to over eat is at the greatest. I believe there is a fairly substantial body of evidence that shows I am not unusual in this regard. This phenomenon is why groceries stores put candy in checkout lanes, when you are mentally tired from exercising discipline by not picking up the delicious-looking tray of cupcakes in the bakery aisle and thus are most susceptible to temptation.
I think some people can just use willpower to maintain their discipline in every situation, but those people are extreme outliers. Like Navy SEALs or Olympic athletes or other extreme high performers, and not even all of them. Those who can are experts at delayed gratification and are able to visualize what they want and then never deviate from their plan for how to achieve it, regardless of their current emotional state or energy levels. But that is vanishingly rare and often their behavior is a result of some deep trauma (eg someone who is super disciplined about their diet because their dad died early from an obesity-related illness) rather than a positive focus on a certain outcome. The truth is that the vast majority of people just follow their natural inclinations and do whatever is easiest for them. The path of least resistance.
As one such weak-willed person, my approach has been to structure my life to remove temptations, much as the GP comment above described their approach to curating their internet content. For example, I have lived almost exclusively in big cities for my entire life until the last year, when I moved to the middle of nowhere. Which means I can't get takeout food delivered and it's much harder to go out and get ice cream on a whim. Compared to living in a major city where I could get Michelin star restaurant food delivered in a matter of minutes, the temptation is just much, much less powerful. I order my groceries online too, which also dramatically reduces the tendency to impulse buy anything unhealthy (I get to skip the checkout lane with the candy, for one thing). On the other side of the caloric equation, I set up a home gym so that travel time to the gym doesn't become an excuse not to exercise. Basically I add barriers for bad choices and remove them for good ones. I am in the best shape of my life as a result.
I guess what I'm saying is that most people achieve good behaviors in part because of their intentional discipline and in part because their environment is conducive to those behaviors. The real trick is figuring out how to intentionally structure your environment to match whatever behaviors you want. It's effectively borrowing motivation from your peak-energy level periods to provide discipline during periods when you don't have the energy to generate it yourself. It can be incredibly hard to figure out, because you need to know how to change your environment and how you will actually react to that new environment, which isn't always predictable.
Be wary however of the more "extreme" advice on keto-like diets. You don't have to stuff yourself with fats, or put a stick of butter in your coffee.
There isn't a persistently high cognitive load on deciding what you can eat, once you master the foundational knowledge of eating low-carb.
It's definitely a thing, you can smell when people are in ketosis
Bad behaviour starts with acknowledgement and the best way to do that is to track what you eat and learn to adapt slowly and develop self discipline. Use a tracker app and set a reasonable daily break even nutritional target and start thinking about what you eat. Slowly substitute better choices in. Eventually you will develop self control.
People want quick fixes but keto just breaks other things.
For me it ended in a few days in hospital.
Unfortunately a lot of people who would be interested in dieting and trying out a keto diet are diabetic. It's not always dangerous, but it's generally not a good diet for diabetic people because of this.
Ketoacidosis is a result of extremely high blood sugar for a prolonged period of time combined with ketosis. The reason this happens is that without insulin your body cannot use the sugar in your blood so your blood sugar keeps going up and your body doesn't get any energy out of it.
What happens when your body is out of fuel for a couple of days? It enters ketosis and starts to burn fat. Ketons mixed with sugar in your blood will acidify blood, this is ketoacidosis. It's an extremely dangerous condition.
However, if a diabetic is on keto diet they will have low blood sugar and their body will enter regular ketosis almost eliminating the need for insulin and ensuring a stable healthy blood sugar.
In other words, a diabetic will end up in ketoacidosis if they're bad at controlling their blood sugar, regardless of their diet. However, if they are on keto diet the chance that their blood sugar will be very high is extremely small. High blood sugar is the killer, not ketosis.
I've been doing a keto diet on and off for a number of years. When I'm in ketosis my blood sugar is steady in 80-100 range and I don't need almost any insulin.
The truly hardest part of all of this in general is finding a suitable form of substitute stimulus that keeps you from being driven to seek your default vices. The unfortunate part is that there are not a lot of accessible/healthy things in life that provide the adequate stimulus that we seek/need in order to feel "okay". We're drawn towards drugs and junk food and etc because it's easy to acquire and satisfies our needs for stimulus in the short term.
We tend to keep doing what we are already doing (an inertia of sorts). If we are eating, we keep on eating (even if we are not hungry anymore) until an external factor stops us (e.g. the food is over).
Changing states (starting/stopping) is the hardest part, but if you trick yourself somehow to stop it's easy to just put the food aside. The question that remain is how do you stop yourself from doing what you are currently doing? Some people use an "1,2,3 technique", where you just count to yourself and once you reach three you start doing what's needed. Mindfulness also helps, where you take a breath and think exactly what you are doing and why (I am eating, I am putting my hand in the bag of chips, I am bringing the chip to my mouth even if I am not hungry and don't even enjoy it that much, this would just make me feel fat afterwards).
To me, part of it is being mindful. Don't open the bag of chips and then watch a movie or surf the net while munching on them. You will eat the whole bag.
If I mode change from sitting in front of the computer to standing in the kitchen eating the chips and then mode change to back in front of the computer, I don't mindlessly consume the whole bag. But I will still sometimes consume the whole bag.
One thing I have also tried to do is differentiate between "I want chips because I'm hungry" vs "I want chips because I'm craving salt". It's not easy for me to tell the difference. I coat some baby carrots in salt or Old Bay seasoning and munch a few--if that keeps the munchies away, my body wanted salt. If I'm hungry again 15 minutes later, well, my body wants calories.
Nevertheless, I'm mostly in the camp of "Just don't have chips/cookies in the house". It also helps that I learned to bake as a child. I like tasty desserts, and most of what now exists is mostly sugar overload with no flavor. So, a dessert easily sets off my "Is this dessert tasty enough to merit skipping two entire steaks <or insert whatever main course you like> to compensate?" And, if my that activates, the answer is almost always a resounding "No." and I skip dessert.
Unfortunately for me, I found a middle eastern place that does homemade Baklava with a cream filling. It's right next to a Mexican restaurant that I also find quite nice. This is a bad thing for my waistline.
In the good I will run couple marathons a month and in the bad I will eat whatever I can find.
I always felt like an outcast, good to hear I am not alone :)
For media consumption it is exactly the same. The good is that I get to the nitty gritty of technical problems. But I also read the unless crap till no end.
I have been able to ditch Twitter, reddit, Facebook and Instagram but I just substitute it with hackernews and YouTube.
HN and youtube still stick. Mostly tutorials, workouts or info videos ( Andrew Huberman, justforfunc, 3blue1brown etc. ) on youtube though.
My default method of weight control is not to have unhealty food and alcohol in the house except for weekends. In the office I only have healthy food available. It works and I have gotten used to it - mainly because my anything goes weekends act as a great pressure release valve.
Since moving into the workforce, my free time is no longer segmented into so many pieces. I don't get as much value as I used to from 10 to 15 minute chunks of entertainment, so I stop keeping up with the sources, and just lose touch.
It isn't that the content I'm leaving behind is bad or 'cheap', it's just that I don't have the time and attention to keep up with most of it. My entertainment time is better spent on stuff that takes longer to engage with/consume, since those bigger things are often more valuable as entertainment.
I may have been on psychedelic mushrooms at the time, but something I took away from the trip was an acknowledgement of a feeling of 'shedding' in life, in terms of hobbies and interests.
Stuff will get boring and be forgotten, or fall to the side and be ignored while it collects dust. This is something that I should expect to happen, and be prepared for. So long as you derived some value from those once-great things, it hasn't been a waste, and is just a symptom of time passing.
Maybe you pick those things back up later, and maybe you don't. For myself, I think my 'best life' would be one where I had the space and tools to be able to pick up or put down whatever ideas come to me.
I had a very similar feeling in a similar setting, like a large part of the process of life is scrubbing crusty exteriors off so that new capacities can emerge. Like continuous molting.
Thanks for the reminder.
Somewhat related is a one-player game I'm looking at, called Thousand Year Old Vampire. Eventually, the character must choose what memories to leave behind. It's going to be a strange experience when I get to that stage.
Presents the Twitter accounts you're following so you can decide whether they "spark joy"... pairs well with
https://opml.glitch.me/
Which looks at the accounts you're following, looks at the links in their bios, sees if there's an RSS feed indicated at that link, and puts the whole thing together into an OPML feed (the standard XML-of-RSS-feeds format used for RSS reader import/export, among other things).
i would love if a tool like this were made based on interactions I've had with authors. generally, i like comment or retweet content that "sparks joy".
would be a good first pass filter
But what about things like Instagram, TikTok, etc. - did you delete those apps altogether or also aggressively trim (if you use them)?
Facebook I left a decade ago, for its ethical issues. Instagram I left because I felt the performance aspect was unhealthy: even in my only-friends-and-family circle, I'd still care too much about picking out the perfect photo of my kid or wherever.
For Twitter I realized it was way too easy to get sucked down political/angry feeds. One day Twitter said my account has suspicious activity (maybe a bot tried to log in) and I needed to reply to an email to re-enable it. I never replied to the email. Somehow this meant that every time I followed a Twitter link, I'd get that alert, so I could never see content. I felt so much happier.
I think for most with social media the equivalent would be to eat the entire bag.
Nothing has been more effective for me than this, as well unfriending/following people or accounts that actively make me angry. Had to unfollow like 10 people tops and the quality of my feeds got noticeably better.
Now I am using my smartphone pretty much in the same way I was using my PC when smartphones didn't exist (e.g. 20 years ago): quite a bit of browsing and few comments here and there.
It's not that I can't do without smartphone: on holidays I can totally avoid using it for browsing. But that inevitably comes back to "normal".
And I'm pretty sure I was distracting myself with literature in a similar way when I was even younger (e.g. 25 yrs ago). I read very fast and hardly retain anything:) Is it in any way healthier? Not so sure, it feels like binge reading is as addictive and unsatisfying -- I do that nowadays (rarely) too.
I could never do that with Facebook as it is mostly all useless crap and ads
I tend to agree with you: if it's there, you're going to go for it. We all have things like this. "Cleaning your plate" is a good metaphor, but I'm betting you don't "clean your plate" when it comes to exercise or other things that may be less enjoyable.
Identify the things in your life that are red flags, and consciously keep them out of your life. It's hard at first, but soon, you don't even miss them.
Looking back at how most people lived their lives, it was sustenance, interspersed with things like family, religion, and friendship (if you were lucky). Nearly nobody owned much, nearly nobody 'did cool things,' nearly nobody was famous.
They all just had a part of life (surviving) that they knew was bad and hard work, then they tried as hard as they could to escape that briefly.
Now, we expect work to be fulfilling and non-work to be fulfilling. For the majority of people where that isn't true, it feels really depressing, which is compounded by the fact that society pushes you to spend more time on improving the work side of things (which again for most people will not be intrinsically fulfilling no matter how hard they try), so they end up feeling lonely and sad.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15761167/
It strikes me the Internet is now a bottomless soup bowl of content, and we have know indicators to tell us when we should stop.
This! I often let my phone run out of battery and avoid plugging it in so I can do other things.
From a similar thread, someone mentioned that phones are only good for content consumption. When I’m on the computer, I’m at least somewhat productive and the distractions aren’t quite as strong.
The brain invents its own portion sizes that are more dependent on the size of the container than the total supply. I don't know how you introduce portion control to the Internet, but we definitely need it.
Some people have strategies for avoiding a shopping cart full of junk food. I wonder how far you can stretch that into media consumption before the analogy tears.
I also treat it in the same way by cutting everything. That doesn't fix the problem though, and eventually I replace the bad habits with new ones.
For a proper fix for that you need to solve the underlying causes of your depression.
- Create UBlock rules to remove recommendations, only keeping the search bar on the youtube home page so if you want to watch a video you have to explicitly seek it out
- Redirect an address like reddit.com in /etc/hosts so it is inaccessible
- Seek out more productive forms of social media, and set loose timers for accessing them so you don't get caught in infinite scrolling
- Do not have social media apps on your phone
- Turn off internet when doing productive work if possible. Or employ context switches - one browser for fun, another for work.
The modern internet has broken our slowly evolved brains. We are not built to cope with these types of attention destroying activities and media. At least 20 years ago you had to sit down at a specific place and use a chunky computer. Smartphones have made it 1000x worse.
There's no easy solution. I don't think becoming a digital luddite is the answer...but we all need to be more intentional with our time.
It's not the only answer, but Cal Newport's book Digital Minimalism^1 is a good read for anyone that finds themself feeling this way.
[1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40672036-digital-minimal...
Is eating sugar when it is offered a disease, or an environment that is toxic to instincts that usee to suit us well?
It's not, but it will lead to some (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc).
In the same way, consuming infinite amounts of quick-hitting and dopamine-inducing social media is not a disease, but it can damage our brains and lead to "disease" in the same way that sugar damages the rest of our body.
Again, I'm not a doctor and I have no facts/evidence to share. Just my own thoughts on how things are going.
But then if all their peers are in fact outperforming them, because they're already all self-medicating for ADD symptoms, or have a prescription for ADD meds, so they can focus on something that most ordinary people would have trouble focusing on... what then?
What's normal in a work environment that's fundamentally and extremely not normal?
When Henry Ford popularized the assembly line he had extremely high employee turnover. People didn't like working that way.
When I didn’t, I got bored, and I picked up books. I remember reading books on history, biology, psychology, electronics, programming, etc. and learning from them, often just by flipping pages and reading passages that looked interesting. In fairness, even nowadays, it’s not uncommon for me to have a dozen Wikipedia tabs opened about random stuff that piqued my interest.
Nowadays I can’t get bored anymore. My phone is rarely out of arms reach and I own every steam game I ever wanted and a computer that can handle them.
Recently, I recall trying to work on a side project when I got stuck on a design aspect. My power went out later and with all my devices dead and I remember being bored to death, pacing around the apartment when the solution came to me.
It's in moments of boredom that you start having deep thoughts about the world, start thinking through solutions to problems you have, start thinking about changes you can make in your life.
I got rid of my smartphone and now the 20 minutes each day on the train where I'm "bored" are one of the most valuable parts of my day. And my mind feels much fresher after it, rather than being crammed with 20 minutes worth of mental junk food from the internet.
Teach me! How do you keep in touch with people on the go? This is the only thing that has stopped me from dumping my iPhone altogether. I sometimes leave home without it but I end up relying on others for coordination, etc -- which means I haven't liberated myself so much as fobbed off the responsibility to others.
I don't have social media (besides HN), so my main contact with people who aren't in my immediate vicinity is through sharing photos directly on iMessage and the odd article-inspired rant.
Texting on a T9 keyboard is slow but I've come to consider that a feature. Before I had a smartphone I would just text everyone, now that texting takes actual effort I find myself calling people more, or asking to meet up in person. And I find myself forming much deeper personal connections with people as a result.
Thats interesting - I think I lost ability to be bored even if I do not reach for phone immediately. My mind somehow switches to a strange mode where I reply random events from my life and try to come out with different plays for each interaction. And I cannot do this if I feel discomfort - its too hot or too cold etc. And I used to think that this was boredom but now I think this was because I was distracted by environment. The real boredom is something that I vaguely remember from my early childho hit`od and I cannot get there now - my mind is to full of past interactions. The smartphone age can be somehow at fault here - maybe my brain thirsts for dompamine hit so much that it creates its own mental junk.
https://www.wired.com/2014/09/cinema-is-evolving/
ASL 1.55 - Doomsday (2008) : 4052 shots over 105 minutes
ASL 1.72 - Transporter 3 (2008) : 3360 shots over 96 minutes
ASL 1.73 - Domino (2005) : 4046 shots over 116 minutes
ASL 1.83 - Quantum of Solace (2008) : 3198 shots over 98 minutes
ASL 1.84 - Crank: High Voltage (2009) : 2718 shots over 84 minutes
ASL 1.92 - Transporter 2 (2005) : 2524 shots over 81 minutes
ASL 2.01 - Band of Ninja (1967) : 3424 shots over 114 minutes
ASL 2.01 - Moulin Rouge! (2001) : 3594 shots over 120 minutes
ASL 2.03 - Gamer (2009) : 2502 shots over 84 minutes
ASL 2.03 - The 6th Day (2000) : 3418 shots over 116 minutes
ASL 2.08 - Hot Fuzz (2007) : 3304 shots over 115 minutes
ASL 2.10 - Dark City (1998) : 2982 shots over 104 minutes
ASL 2.15 - Armageddon (1998) : 4025 shots over 145 minutes
ASL 2.17 - The Transporter (2002) : 2420 shots over 87 minutes
ASL 2.17 - The Bourne Ultimatum (2007) : 2910 shots over 105 minutes
- I forgot how time could pass outside of internet. Days were flying in-house.. yet everytime I walked to anything 5mi away.. suddenly I felt like I lived a whole life yet only 1 hour had passed.
- It reached a point where when my ISP was failing, seeing the internet box being solidly offline dilated time in the blink of an eye. I had a giant "oh god yes." screamed by my brain because I felt free.. no more F5/refresh of stuff that only satisfied me shallowly and forbid mind wandering or in-depth activities. Stunning effect an electronic pipe..
ADHD would be like more like falling in a pit where one basically cannot do anything meaningful for days and days despite willing to do so (if the motivation is lost, in turn, we are talking about depression-like states).
I doubt that many of normal smartphone users get into such pits despite they appear distracted and might have an urge to get into one's smartphone.
What really helped me was these two books:
(1) The Attention Merchants by Tim Wu (2) The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshanna Zuboff
and the nextdns.io installed on all my devices. I literally blocked Reddit, et al to break the cycle of "I just woke up so I'mm scroll until I'm fully awake" and then oops -- an hour went by.
The thing that ended up motivating me to change was reinforcing for myself the fact that I'm in this mess because very smart people have designed systems to exploit me. Fuck that. I'm in control of my attention.
The second thing I did was decide on a few things I had to do before picking up my phone for the first time in the morning. This like a game, where I started with one thing and then built up more, to see how many things I could get done before checking my messages. I started with taking a shower. Then I added walking the dog, then coffee, then breakfast... now I'm up to the point where my entire morning routine has to happen before I pick up my phone.
It's not easy. I'm not perfect at this, and there are days when I go back to bad habits. (In this context, I use "bad habits" to mean "habits that prevent me achieving the goals I set for myself). That's why I block certain websites still, for myself, to help from getting back into those habits.
What can change or develop over time is the life circumstances that a person with ADHD finds themselves in. Circumstance can make the difference between ADHD being a disorder with significant impairments vs a joyful and creative existence.
Situations which demand executive function, like putting down that mobile phone or closing youtube in favor of doing something more productive are much harder for people with ADHD. The market built by the tech industry to transact human attention for profit certainly hasn't helped here.
Here's a good brief overview of ADHD: https://www.adhdbitesize.com/post/understand-what-adhd-is-re...
Or a bite-size youtube version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMWtGozn5jU
An online ADHD test which is relatable and seems fairly accurate: https://totallyadd.com/do-i-have-add/
I disagree, from my own personal experience.
According to the CDC/DSM-5, people with ADHD simply have enough of the described ADHD symptoms, and most importantly "interferes with functioning or development."
We don't yet know enough about the brain besides that people have different brain makeups and respond to different stimuli differently. We don't quite know what causes ADHD but we can group the overall symptoms together to try and treat them.
That said, plenty of the criteria in the DSM-5 can be as a result of our modern lifestyles. I talked to multiple psychiatrists/therapists who had consensus that I had ADHD. I tried all the different meds, none of them really helped. The only thing that did was changing my lifestyle. Completely eliminating some addictive habits that wrecked my response/reward circuits (porn and addictive video games) (still a work in progress but it helps). Structuring my life for more consistency and setting up a system that would prevent me from dropping into the negative ADHD habits.
I recommend reading ADHD 2.0 by Dr Halowell. Everyone's journey is different and I don't want to take away from people who get serious improvements from traditional ADHD treatments. But ADHD is a spectrum, and it's unfortunate that many of the traits that come with ADHD cause negative outcomes for our modern society, but it's really just a different functioning of the brain. Some activities exacerbate the negative outcomes, and some can reel them in. Like most other things, I believe ADHD is partly genetic and partly behavioral. The weight differs from person to person. One of those you can't control, and one you (sort of) can
However, having this brain chemistry doesn't necessarily mean a person suffers impairments in daily life: impairments are highly situational.
I suppose - to the extent that the DSM-5 requires a fair level of impariment for someone to be diagnosed with ADHD - that it's technically correct to say people can develop this in adulthood: there it passes from a syndrome to an disorder. (Personally I feel it's kind of absurd not to have a name for the syndrome if it occurs in the absence of impariment due to life circumstances! Perhaps this will be "fixed" one day as psychology slowly becomes more quantitative.)
Thanks for the book suggestion!
However, your circumstances change as you become an adult and once well managed symptoms can start showing. You don't see impaired decision making when you can ask your parents about everything. You're not late when mom makes sure you get out one time. You manage all 2-3 household chores you have, but crack when you get 20-30. You manage your pocket money well enough, but not so much a full adult budget. You're fine when you know what you're supposed to be doing (the homework for tomorrow), but adult life gets you overwhelmed. Etc. Etc.
It's really no wonder people are paying attention to the Internet, because at any moment some new calamity will be upon us. (It was kind of also true for me during the Trump presidency: I felt compelled to check the political news multiple times a day as if somehow my personal supervision and online comments would keep Trump from doing anything too crazy.) I've started to wonder if I'm exhibiting ADD-like symptoms, and I'm also wondering if it's not just me, that it's happening to most people at the same time.
Maybe things will go a little bit back to normal as in-person social interaction ramps back up. (I'm in the Portland area. Here, Covid restrictions are basically over but a lot of people are still operating in a pandemic mode. We've just now been allowed to work from our cubicles again, and only a couple of my coworkers actually do it on kind of a once-a-week cadence.) I don't think things are going back to anything like what I'd like to think of as normal, though. The world's just a really turbulent place right now.
He thought it wasn't ADHD because I don't otherwise get distracted if I'm engaged (watching a movie in a theater, cooking etc) and can generally see the task through to the end.
Note: watching a movie in a theater is, for me, a totally different experience to watching it at home. At home there's always an option to pick up the phone in the middle or walk away and do something else whereas at the theater I don't have that option. I can very easily watch a full movie at the theater but it's been a fairly long time since I was able to watch a full movie at home in one go.
However, when I actually have something to do, when I'm with friends or on a vacation, I barely remember my smartphone exists. But again, at the end of a 2-week vacation, I catch myself doing the same things routinely and mindlessly, without enjoying them as much.
Basically, when I'm tired or something, my brain goes for a quick dopamine fix which requires the less effort and, very importantly, the less deciding. The "beauty" of social media, is that they free you from the decision. On Wikipedia, you have to decide what to read, but social media give you a nice platter of content: "here's a tip for straining pasta, here's a nine-year-old who died."
If there's a started jigsaw puzzle on the coffee table, I'll go for that. A Duolingo lesson pending, a book laying around, sweets in the pantry, a small enough cleaning task...
> but we all need to be more intentional with our time.
Yes. Think how you want your time to be spent. Then make the hard easy, and make the easy hard. Make a "dopamenu" of fun/relaxing/satisfying stuff to do when you need a break.
I think legislation should force social networks to:
- have a reverse chronological timeline for your network
- optionally disable any algorithmic recommendations
Social Media companies are mostly unrestricted in the current legislation system while they are trying their hardest to maximize user engagement.
Just like the use of certain drugs this something some people can’t responsively deal with themselves, hence it should be regulated.
And probably my idea is not very fleshed out, but I think something has to be done, and it has to come from states as the companies themselves can’t be held responsible.
It may be worth talking with your family doctor about. If so, there's medication and/or targeted coaching that can help significantly.
When reddit records a click or an upvote, it thinks it has been a Good Product, and created Engagement. Reddit then takes those feedback loops and tunes the algorithm and feedback loops to create further engagement.
But in reality, there's almost no positive relationship between my engagement with social media and my personal human flourishing. I think these products are mostly poison for my soul.
Twitter and HN mostly fill me with frustration, loathing, and angst. Like the cigarettes I smoke fill me with tar and carcinogens. Reddit at least I occasionally find something interesting, due to carefully curated subs.
It’s just addiction, nothing more.
Why does HN bother you like that?
There's no shortage of passive aggression, angst, oneupsmanship,virtue signaling, dogwhistling, etc. It just so happens that there's a sufficient about of incredibly useful opinions and comments from subject matter experts that make it worth consuming in spite of the fact that it's a forum on the internet, and all of the baggage that entails.
(side note: this isn't intended as a dig on HN moderation - you probably all do a better job than most other venues. kudos.)
Youtube is the only social media site that I think is a net positive on my life, because I learn so much, but I've started going for runs again because I really need time away from a screen and the constant dopamine hits.
Yeah that helped me with getting over the addiction. Most people dont care about your opinion, you aren't going to change anything, if some dumb teenager thinks they're smart (even though they're wrong) just let them be.
It's not healthy, and I feel bad about it.
They have got me exactly where they want me.
And like you, it's very clear that this is not conducive to human flourishing. Unfortunately, I've been caught in this, and similar loops for so long that I have a hard time knowing what flourishing even looks like anymore.
EDIT: One thing that did help me, for a time, was finding a REALLY good book, one that completely sucked me in—in this case it was David Mitchell's latest, 'Utopia Avenue'. It's been a long time since I found a really fantastic book, when you do, there's nothing better.
And I realized that the next morning, when you wake up after a long evening of reading a good book, you remember it. You remember it as being a great use of time, something you can be proud of.
An evening spent scrolling through social media is never memorable. It's never something you're proud of, something you want to tell people about.
A good night with a good book is a good use of time.
I need to remember this more often, myself.
I scroll reddit obsessively but I don't enjoy it.
I read books obsessively but I enjoy it.
This is why "engagement" is something only corporate f---splats say under normal circumstances. Either they secretly know it's a form of psychological enslavement or they're oblivious to the problems inherent in trying to measure it.
I estimated how many more books I would likely read before I die, and it's a shockingly small number, even though I read a lot! So - choose wisely.
Hear! Hear! This cannot be overstated.
>> And kids grow up way too fast. Treasure every moment.
And this on the other hand ... works only if You somehow like children (and who does not like small psychopats with dictatorial aspirations). For the others (I believe most of people who lives in my housing estate can be counted) I observe that the moments they really treasure are those when their children are is safe distance from them taking care of themselves.
We tune our activities for the minimization of risk. Perhaps adding a random chance to ban you for browsing would help add some risk back in.
what seems like an instant, they are gone.
Want to slow time down? Maxwell's equations have you covered.
Why are you choosing reddit over spending time your baby? Do you fear handling the baby? Does handling the baby make you feel uncomfortable thoughts or feelings?
Is there something, like ego, that reddit gives you?
This is a good problem for self journaling, working with someone, or whatever your preferred form of self introspection is.
It absolutely is an addiction machine.
It tastes good. People really like it. Given the choice between rice cakes and chocolate, you'd probably choose chocolate. Chocolate manufacturers test chocolates and release the more successful ones.
The only thing that works is a site blocker. It actually works. Convince yourself that the block is permanent. Delete the app. This of course won't completely stop you, because you could always unblock yourself. But it'll stop you from mindlessly pulling up reddit.
but we are just good friends.
reddit man.
Anecdotally, a lot of digital addictions come down to ease of access vs dopamine hit. As soon as your access method is "futz with a hosts file" or "ask your wife to unlock the blocker" (I was pretty bad), it becomes easier to break the cycle.
More people need to utilise their tendency toward lazyness, I swear
So one day I decided to just delete my account, and that was it. As soon as the account disappeared, so did my interest in the site. It was like a switch flipped in my head. I guess it was the internet points that were tickling the addiction part of my brain?
Next time I find myself wasting too much time on a social network, I'm just going to delete the account and move on. Unfortunately, I don't think HN lets you delete your account, so I'll need to get creative if I decide to drop this site too (maybe do something to get myself banned?)
Someone told me once that addiction is built more strongly with negative experiences and it blew my mind. I think it's probably true.
Addiction isn't built by you getting a reward, it's built by you desperately chasing a reward you never quite reach. We call a book a "page turner" not because it's a satisfying book, but because every chapter ends in some bullshit cliff hanger. Same applies to TV shows.
I would suggest that maybe you weren't addicted to reddit because it was actually giving you what you wanted, but because you were chasing some satisfaction that you never quite got. Satisfied users leave a site happy after 5 minutes and get on with life. People who have spent 2 hours opening 200 threads and still haven't got the happy feeling they came there for stay around to open "just one more thread" another 50 times.
Nobody likes them, but if you're not doing 50/50 (or at least something mutally recognised as fair) and you don't occasionally overachieve to give your spouse a bit of a break, it can be a big issue. If Reddit/Twitter are prioritised over getting the basics done, get that sorted out.
You spend time on reddit because you want to. It seems unproductive to tell yourself that you don't.
You have a cognitive disonance, logical contradiction that you just need to bring to the surface and follow through. When you are about to reddit ask yourself whether you want to or not. Not some idealized version of yourself in your head. Just what do you want right now.
Then debug, introspect. Eliminate wishful thinking and accept reality - more time on reddit less time for other things. Do I want that?
Answer yes is perfectly fine. You do what you want anyway, but in my case simply bringing these contradictions to my conscious mind (and sometimes looking for a moment where it is exactly - like, I know that it's A or B I can't be spending time on both things at the same time, If I want to learn X it requires time) is enough to eliminate them.
I still spend time on reddit (not that much), but I don't think I'm doing anything I don't want to do or that it would be better to do anything else.
We are always doing what we want to. Telling ourselves that we don't is needless suffering.
This seems like a mischaracterization of how addiction works.
I like to think of it as "I can't stop scrolling Reddit despite knowing I'm not enjoying Reddit". I deleted the Reddit app, and blocked reddit.com (which I found myself using next) to 0 minutes on Digital Well-being (on stock Android).
Addiction framework and associated solutions seem to be pretty effective for things like stopping heroin usage.
Quite likely it can work for reddit too, but I'm guessing PC already tried it.
I'm just offering a different framework and way of looking at things, which works great for me - or to be even more precise, removes some suffering. One may just decide she wants to spend a lot of time on reddit, but being honest with oneself and trying not to hold logically contradicting things in one's head seems like a good thing.
I mean just something that we name. If we look at a tree and I say its crown forms a nice sphere, I'm not treating trees like geometric objects and I can still appreciate its beauty and marvel.
Observing the same reality you can see it through different frameworks consisting of different patterns. The same tree can be seen as color palette for a designer, bunch of areas with different living conditions for microbiologist, shapes for painter, material for woodworker etc.
Once you divide reality to some patterns in a certain way (what I call a framework) when somebody suggests different division we usually don't throw away existing one, so we subdivide our patterns based on what's somebody is saying instead of looking at a whole thing and then the other framework usually seems like a detail, not important, worse, less useful.
Being able to abandon your preferred framework for a moment allows too see the same things differently.
E.g. I can have a long conversation with somebody who deeply believes in God, (we skip the church bit for a moment) and if I substitute just a name of the pattern, if I do s/God/Universe, it turns out our worldview is virtually identical despite me being an atheist.
But when you say "You could say you are suffering addiction withdrawal when you are away from somebody or some place you love", you demonstrate that you have no idea what addiction is. No idea.
With respect, I strongly advise you to not say things like that. It's super wrong (which is okay but sub-optimal), you look dumb (which is bad for you), and it's hurtful to other people (which is bad for other people).
I hope you can continue to be naive about addiction for your entire life.
IMO I should be able to say I was forced to do some work even if I wasnt in a concentration camp myslef. Or that it bugs me that something is messy even if I dont have extreme OCD.
Internet addiction is a normalized term and I think withdrawal fron losing somebody you love or even a place can be more accute.
Also I'm sorry about whatever you had to experience related to addiction.
You can use either, but if people think you mean the latter and you start arguing points that only apply to the former, expect pushback.
"Just stop being depressed" - Psychiatrists hate that one trick.
"You are suffering most of the time. It seems unproductive to tell yourself that you aren't"
We are always doing what we want to.
Perhaps I should have added "given restrictions of reality"? I mean you can have diarrhea and be currently shitting your pants. And you may not want to do that. Seems like a stronger argument than equaling heroin to reddit. But in both cases your options are limited. From those, you choose what you want. And you are then doing what you want to do (with or without telling yourself that you don't really want to do that - whether that's shooting heroin, going to rehab or changing your pants). If your argument is that what you want was not available as an option, then your problem is wishful thinking. Reality is what it is. You are here now.
As far as I understand it, a heroin addict, at times when he's not craving and has some choice, has a choice to continue doing it or to go through hell and then some. I doubt there is much cognitive dissonance before dosing. But I just don't know this context enough (except for the fact that random dude view's on life are very unlikely to help).
But in general yes, if you murder people you can apply this thinking too. You will either decide that's not what you want or have less cognitive dissonance while doing it. Happily slashing without thinking that you don't really want to do that.
I'm not selling any cure, just suggesting that there seem to be no need to ever think "I don't want to do this" and then do it. And I mean it. From cleaning up shit from the floor, through putting your dog down to going to a funeral.
> As far as I understand it, a heroin addict, at times when he's not craving and has some choice, has a choice to continue doing it or to go through hell and then some.
No, not at all. I think your understanding depends strongly on your ignorance on that subject.
Similarly you can sometimes find really cool answers on /r/askscience or /r/askhistorians.
Of course, this is in stark contrast to the vast amounts of low quality posts from people posting thoughtless one-liners while they are waiting on the bus, sitting on the toilet or about to fall asleep. Not to mention many toxic comments. But every now and then I find these little nuggets which keep me hooked.
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/neapolitanpizza/comments/h8llnp/fre...
Now, if I really want to read a reddit post, I can. but half of the links break unless you manually change the url to include the "i." subdomain again, the interface isn't so great, but I can access all the content if i really want to, it's just inconvenient enough that you're not going to mindlessly scroll for all eternity
I think its funny that we both stumbled on a similar approach
When I switched phones I decided to not install Twitter or Reddit on the new one for a week.
After getting over some FOMO on the first week, I decided to extend it for 1 month.
I have been "clean" for ~7 months now. Except for the occasional direct link from my mobile phone, and fortunately thanks to the ingrate mobile experience their webs provide, I will probably keep doing this for a while.
I find other ways to distract myself, though (other websites, doing random queries in google, etc). I am working on the underlying problems I have. But for me getting the distractions out of the way first was easier than the alternative.
[1] https://www.proginosko.com/leechblock/