Pretty cool. But all these different note taking software suffer from the same thing: it’s not so much about the actual taking of notes that’s the problem, but organizing all the notes when one needs it.
I’m reading a book called “How to Take Smart Notes” which espouses the Zettelkatsen method, and I spent all weekend going down the EMacs + Org-roam rabbit hole to implement what the book espouses. However, it became too complex, and became too burdensome.
The real user pain point here is “it’s difficult to remember what I write down,” and “associating thoughts, and notes from disparate sources is too time consuming.” No software has solved these two pain points, I’m afraid.
I'm in the same boat, and have more or less settled on simply writing plain text (markdown format) files in a plain directory structure maintained by me. I then use Obsidian to "organize" the notes.
I'm also guilty of just jotting quick notes into iOS Notes. It's always there, and "good enough" for most quick note taking tasks. I prefer plain text for longer notes (which i assume has a longer shelf life), but if i'm just jotting down a quick list of things i need to get done today, iOS notes is more than enough.
Straight forward OpenSource notetaking app with Markdown, sync Backends for your prefered cloud service (incl. WebDAV/Nextcloud) and smartphone apps.
https://joplinapp.org/
Sadly, Joplin doesn't support synchronizing files with iCloud, and i'm not about to go out and purchase yet another cloud synchronization option just for notes :)
I wonder if we couldn't use some kind of machine learning tools to provides summaries or overviews of the notes (like there are some bots that summarize news articles)
I just do that manually. Whenever I open one of my notes, I'm immediately greeted with a couple of key bullet points that summarize it, and if I need to dig deeper, all I have to do is scroll further down.
I've used xournalapp++ recently mostly to sketch diagrams as I would on paper. I don't see it as a real note taking, just paper replacement.
That said what you said is absolutely true and in my projects idea folder I called this "Inner knowing". The main problem is that note taking apps are marketed as a replacement for human memory ("brain dump", "second brain", etc). Hence they create a dependency on them as they decrease the ability to remember. When infact what we need is the opposite.
Also I believe it should be an OS/DE feature thightly integrated with file management/search.
Yes, i've tried obsidian, it somewhat works but it's always an electron nonsense.
For me, the Initial notes are handwritten (in notability or onenote on the iPad). I also always have field notes and a pen in reach.
I definitely think the physical action of writing in response to stimulus is critical to initial comprehension and memory.
My new note rewriting workflow is in obsidian. I’m really liking the way it comes together with the links and tags. I’m basically building a personal wiki highly relevant to me. And the final notes are way more accessible.
I've tried them all: roam research, obsidian, logseq, the Archive, org-roam etc. etc. None of them worked for me until I moved from digital to analog with pen and index cards.
Yeah, if you're having trouble doing any of those things in front of computer, I'm not sure if the choice of software would help in any way. Some people are just wired to do things via non-digital ways :) Glad you found your solution.
Disclaimer: I’m currently building a product to help with my own organization challenges.
This is what I realized as well—organization is the hard part. I kept struggling to find notes when I wanted to reference them. In my case, my notes are usually (but not always) captured in a meeting. I would struggle to find content because I might remember a person, a rough date, or some topic discussed… but if I put it in the wrong folder, tag, or physical notebook I was out of luck.
I put together a simple prototype that pulled all the metadata off my calendar included it in notes. That was really helpful.
We liked it enough playing with it internally that we built a product (witful.com). In 2.5 years of real world use I’ve almost never struggled to find stuff. Really has been a game changer for me, but my content is meeting centric.
> it became too complex, and became too burdensome.
I think simplicity is the key for any long lasting system. One of the ways to ensure that my zettlekasten system doesn’t get too complicated is to “discard” most of my writing.
I always put everything into Obsidians daily notes and leave it there without any processing. I process the writing into cards only if I look for it again or it’s interesting enough.
The problem with externalizing information (note taking) is that past a point, it becomes difficult to find information again when you need it (because you have too much information to comb through). wrote extensively on this in [It's Not You - It's Your Knowledge Base](https://www.kevinslin.com/notes/e1455752-b052-4212-ac6e-cc05...)
I find that at the end of the day, the only thing that works over long periods of time (and a large number of notes) are hierarchies with a regular structure that can be applied consistently. The pain point with this system is that hierarchies are hard to change and the way we think of things does change. This is why I ended up creating my own note taking tool built around the idea of flexible hierarchies (https://dendron.so)
"This is my first Rust and GTK project and I am learning as I go along. Expect some bugs and crashes. Also: The file format is still unstable. It might change and break compatibility between versions."
While some sections are TODO, the docs help getting an idea about it without having to install first, which I do like.
I wonder though, what if I don't have a pen? I imagine using it with keyboard for typing, and making some drawings/sketches etc. with mouse. Is that a first-class workflow?
Also, plugins written in Lua, I like that. Whether one is a fan of Lua or not, at least it is an low-entry bar to writing plugins, which generally is nice.
One more question, since the "Config"-part of the docs are very todo - is there some kind of dark mode? All screenshots are light mode, so I wouldn't take that for granted.
Mostly I am curious about the audio-record feature, I can imagine well, writing a brief summary and just talk a few additional remarks into my headset instead of typing that down.
I use rarely Xournal, but not for notes, just to compile pdfs someone have made without form, demand a signature (handwritten) in etc. Since adding text or images on a pdf is hyper-fast.
Not tried other use, nor I have not much idea of the differences with this fork...
I dont use this for general notetaking or anything, but Xournal++ is excellent for editing PDFs. I mean its not exactly a PDF editor but you can use it to add stuff to your PDF like textboxes, drawings, images, etc.
After I started using Ubuntu, the predecessor xournal was my go-to reader. I never understood how the xoj files ended up being much smaller than the PDFs created by regular editors like Foxit once you drew something on the PDFs.
You mean japanese? They do mix up r-l on pronunciations, but I rarely see a written r-l typo. Plus, it looks the HN title was manually typed, so it's unlikely you would mix up r-l with a reference text. Most importantly, the submitter is already too fluent to make that mistake, regardless of his native language is.
I used to use OneNote with the Microsoft Pen (or is it Stylus? I forget...) to take notes in this fashion. Eventually, though, there are only a few cases, like large diagrams that you need to evolve over time, where a digital solution beats a paper notebook. The need to start and unlock the computer/tablet if it's not already on, to dismiss or ignore notifications, to launch the app, to select the right color or tool and the occasional glitch when writing (pen sometimes not writing, or suddenly jumping to a completely different place, even deleting old lines when drawing new ones, I feel like I've seen it all) add up to more friction than a paper notebook.
My notebook, which I use like a Bullet Journal, has no batteries that need recharging, no screen that can crack, no notifications, the pen has an ink capacity of over 2 years of daily writing, with a new recharge costing ~6€, no software updates.
There's no search, and occasionally I do flip through the pages longer than I'd like, but it's rare.
Nowadays I mostly write in my paper notebook, and if there's something in there worth keeping, I upload a photograph of it in Notion.
Why is this an inevitability? I'm almost 50 and I have every such notebook I've ever had since I was ~12. After approximately 20 moves. Know what I don't have? Most of my digital files going back that far.
I don't think it's "this is inevitable" as much as "losing small items like notebooks happens not infrequently to many people and is therefore statistically something to consider as a risk factor".
> Who steals people's used notebooks? Or new ones?
Your nice bag or backpack gets lost or stolen with a notebook among all other things you put in there. You can replace a phone, a driver license, but you cannot replace priceless imprint of your own thoughts and memories lost forever.
If needed, I keep scans of my handwritten notes that are difficult to retype. And then backup, backup, backup ...
Well, I did write that I nowadays store digital photos of my important notes.
However...
Like psyc, I still have notebooks around from my teenage years. What I no longer have are the recordings from my piano compositions from that same period.
I did lose one notebook once. It had my email address in it, and the finder contacted me. Somehow, the handover failed. I was angry, but in all honesty, it hasn't affected my life a bit.
I have tried again and again to switch to a stylus+app solution, and I've reverted to paper and pencil every time. Unbeatable latency, totally predictable UX, and no UI to argue with over anything. I've been a programmer for 35 years, and I hate software. All software, probably. I actually hate it. Sometimes I hate the way I make it, but I definitely hate the way everyone else makes it.
> My notebook, which I use like a Bullet Journal, has no batteries that need recharging, no screen that can crack, no notifications, the pen has an ink capacity of over 2 years of daily writing, with a new recharge costing ~6€, no software updates.
I've always had a stern preference for pen and paper, mostly for the reasons you also outline. Always had Moleskins and they never failed me.
But some time ago, I came across reMarkable (2) that seemed like a very good device for people with a distracted mind like me. And now I don't think I'd like to live without it.
Batteries last weeks between charges, screen feels indestructible (the entire device feel indestructible actually), no notifications or any other distractions, and the nibs are really long lasting. Extra plus is that the screen/pen makes it really nice to write on, something I missed when trying to use any other device for notetaking.
The reMarkable is a bit on the expensive side though, especially for its low amount of use cases. But the cases it's built for, it does it really well, so if you have the cash to spare, maybe look into it and see if it's interesting.
Not affiliated with reMarkable, just a happy user who never thought I'd dump my notebooks for anything else.
On the other hand, an electronic notebook has infinitely large pages, easy cut & paste, ability to zoom in to work on details, and you can repeatedly erase stuff without any smudges. By moving stuff around you can easily rearrange the structure of your notes, and add lots of new stuff in the middle. You can carry around tens of thousands of pages on a single light-weight device. Electronic systems with OCR may also have usable search.
What os are you using? I found it extremely glitchy on windows, but pretty good on Linux. (It still crashes sometimes when I leave it open for a long time on Linux, but still the best handwriting app I've used on windows or Linux.)
Linux (KDE Wayland/GNOME Wayland, Gnome was a bit better for touch use in general but the glitches were the same, IIRC) on a tablet with a Wacom digitizer.
The problem sadly is Wayland. While wayland generally improves touch input, Xournalpp has those hiccups & glitches, for the ones are know are actually GTK bugs. I'm still sticking with Wayland though. I used Xournalpp one year before I switched on Xorg.
When I looked at toolbar, I was reminded of GIMP, the UI of which is such a nightmare that I would not use it even if someone pays me to do so. It's just TOO crowded. And the contrast is terrible in the dark mode.
Please, launch OneNote or any popular note-taking app on iPad, and just copy whatever they are doing. It's going to be much cleaner and more accessible.
I recommend a basic drawing tablet connected to your normal desktop computer, and having a decent mount. They're $50-ish for decent models. XP Pen Deco Mini 7 is very decent. On one of my computers, it pivots out from under my desk (kind of like a keyboard tray). On another one, it's mounted on the desk.
They're all plug-and-play under Linux, Windows, and Mac. Some come with extra drivers for Windows and Mac, but you don't want those. It's like mouse and keyboard drivers -- they add a layer of obnoxiousness for normal users, and unless you're doing something specialized, worthless.
For whiteboarding, 6"x4" to 8"x5" is sort of ideal. Bigger than that, and it's too cumbersome. Bigger has upsides for e.g. artists doing Photoshop, but it's not really for business use.
I like these a lot better than screen tablets or similar. Your hand and eyes are both at comfortable heights. You can also have multiple views open -- I can share a large full-screen view of a whiteboard over Zoom, and on a different screen, zoom in on what I'm specifically drawing. Working this way, I have perfect handwriting, and uncanny artistic ability. You also don't have alignment issues.
Major issue is having lag-free software. Very low latency makes a huge difference.
I'd go for the ones with wacom stylus hardware. I didn't test any more recent setups unfortunately, but Fujitsu's T901/Xubuntu/Xournal++ are just perfect.
While I fully agree that the name is terrible (maybe we should start open sourcing product names?), the name is “Xournal++”, not “Xournalpp++”. The title here is wrong.
I bought a Supernote A5X last year, which is a fantastic e-ink tablet with a stylus. The company behind is very actively developing and enhancing the Supernote's (Android-based) OS and software and people (including myself) love them for it (see /r/supernote). However, I really wish their note file format was also supported by desktop software like Xournal++. Basically, I'm hoping that one day we'll have a standard file format for hand-written notes but of course I'm aware of the usual XKCD…
I hope this fixes something that ended up being a huge pet peeve of mine when trying to use the original versions of xournal: It would autosave on the main thread so the program would just abruptly freeze sometimes.
I'm a lecturer and used Xournal extensively during COVID to write on slides while lecturing. I had a Wacom on my desk, and switching from slides to handwriting was completely seamless. I think it made the lectures much more engaging. So thanks to the Xournal team!
I used the older Xournal, since - if I recall correctly - the rewrite is missing full-screen support.
87 comments
[ 0.51 ms ] story [ 179 ms ] threadI’m reading a book called “How to Take Smart Notes” which espouses the Zettelkatsen method, and I spent all weekend going down the EMacs + Org-roam rabbit hole to implement what the book espouses. However, it became too complex, and became too burdensome.
The real user pain point here is “it’s difficult to remember what I write down,” and “associating thoughts, and notes from disparate sources is too time consuming.” No software has solved these two pain points, I’m afraid.
I'm also guilty of just jotting quick notes into iOS Notes. It's always there, and "good enough" for most quick note taking tasks. I prefer plain text for longer notes (which i assume has a longer shelf life), but if i'm just jotting down a quick list of things i need to get done today, iOS notes is more than enough.
Straight forward OpenSource notetaking app with Markdown, sync Backends for your prefered cloud service (incl. WebDAV/Nextcloud) and smartphone apps. https://joplinapp.org/
That said what you said is absolutely true and in my projects idea folder I called this "Inner knowing". The main problem is that note taking apps are marketed as a replacement for human memory ("brain dump", "second brain", etc). Hence they create a dependency on them as they decrease the ability to remember. When infact what we need is the opposite. Also I believe it should be an OS/DE feature thightly integrated with file management/search.
Yes, i've tried obsidian, it somewhat works but it's always an electron nonsense.
I definitely think the physical action of writing in response to stimulus is critical to initial comprehension and memory.
My new note rewriting workflow is in obsidian. I’m really liking the way it comes together with the links and tags. I’m basically building a personal wiki highly relevant to me. And the final notes are way more accessible.
That's my Helm org-Rifle shortcut for my org-notes over 10ish org files in Emacs.
Works pretty well so far
This is what I realized as well—organization is the hard part. I kept struggling to find notes when I wanted to reference them. In my case, my notes are usually (but not always) captured in a meeting. I would struggle to find content because I might remember a person, a rough date, or some topic discussed… but if I put it in the wrong folder, tag, or physical notebook I was out of luck.
I put together a simple prototype that pulled all the metadata off my calendar included it in notes. That was really helpful.
We liked it enough playing with it internally that we built a product (witful.com). In 2.5 years of real world use I’ve almost never struggled to find stuff. Really has been a game changer for me, but my content is meeting centric.
I think simplicity is the key for any long lasting system. One of the ways to ensure that my zettlekasten system doesn’t get too complicated is to “discard” most of my writing.
I always put everything into Obsidians daily notes and leave it there without any processing. I process the writing into cards only if I look for it again or it’s interesting enough.
I find that at the end of the day, the only thing that works over long periods of time (and a large number of notes) are hierarchies with a regular structure that can be applied consistently. The pain point with this system is that hierarchies are hard to change and the way we think of things does change. This is why I ended up creating my own note taking tool built around the idea of flexible hierarchies (https://dendron.so)
Note that this is a rewrite of Xournal (a GTK application), and there are still some things Xournal get better, but many things xournalpp do better.
It's worth it to try both.
"This is my first Rust and GTK project and I am learning as I go along. Expect some bugs and crashes. Also: The file format is still unstable. It might change and break compatibility between versions."
I wonder though, what if I don't have a pen? I imagine using it with keyboard for typing, and making some drawings/sketches etc. with mouse. Is that a first-class workflow?
Also, plugins written in Lua, I like that. Whether one is a fan of Lua or not, at least it is an low-entry bar to writing plugins, which generally is nice.
One more question, since the "Config"-part of the docs are very todo - is there some kind of dark mode? All screenshots are light mode, so I wouldn't take that for granted.
Mostly I am curious about the audio-record feature, I can imagine well, writing a brief summary and just talk a few additional remarks into my headset instead of typing that down.
Not tried other use, nor I have not much idea of the differences with this fork...
the shape recognition is a bit rough... I need to make an almost perfect circle so that the tool recognizes it...
Anecdotally, I once saw a codebase littered with the variable "rambda".
My notebook, which I use like a Bullet Journal, has no batteries that need recharging, no screen that can crack, no notifications, the pen has an ink capacity of over 2 years of daily writing, with a new recharge costing ~6€, no software updates.
There's no search, and occasionally I do flip through the pages longer than I'd like, but it's rare.
Nowadays I mostly write in my paper notebook, and if there's something in there worth keeping, I upload a photograph of it in Notion.
And also no backup of any kind. So if and when your precious dead-tree notebook is lost or stolen what are you going to do?
Who steals people's used notebooks? Or new ones?
Your nice bag or backpack gets lost or stolen with a notebook among all other things you put in there. You can replace a phone, a driver license, but you cannot replace priceless imprint of your own thoughts and memories lost forever.
If needed, I keep scans of my handwritten notes that are difficult to retype. And then backup, backup, backup ...
However...
Like psyc, I still have notebooks around from my teenage years. What I no longer have are the recordings from my piano compositions from that same period.
I did lose one notebook once. It had my email address in it, and the finder contacted me. Somehow, the handover failed. I was angry, but in all honesty, it hasn't affected my life a bit.
I've always had a stern preference for pen and paper, mostly for the reasons you also outline. Always had Moleskins and they never failed me.
But some time ago, I came across reMarkable (2) that seemed like a very good device for people with a distracted mind like me. And now I don't think I'd like to live without it.
Batteries last weeks between charges, screen feels indestructible (the entire device feel indestructible actually), no notifications or any other distractions, and the nibs are really long lasting. Extra plus is that the screen/pen makes it really nice to write on, something I missed when trying to use any other device for notetaking.
The reMarkable is a bit on the expensive side though, especially for its low amount of use cases. But the cases it's built for, it does it really well, so if you have the cash to spare, maybe look into it and see if it's interesting.
Not affiliated with reMarkable, just a happy user who never thought I'd dump my notebooks for anything else.
In other words, it's a trade-off.
Please, launch OneNote or any popular note-taking app on iPad, and just copy whatever they are doing. It's going to be much cleaner and more accessible.
Written in C++ with GTK3, supporting Linux (e.g. Ubuntu, Debian, Arch, SUSE), macOS and Windows 10.
They're all plug-and-play under Linux, Windows, and Mac. Some come with extra drivers for Windows and Mac, but you don't want those. It's like mouse and keyboard drivers -- they add a layer of obnoxiousness for normal users, and unless you're doing something specialized, worthless.
For whiteboarding, 6"x4" to 8"x5" is sort of ideal. Bigger than that, and it's too cumbersome. Bigger has upsides for e.g. artists doing Photoshop, but it's not really for business use.
I like these a lot better than screen tablets or similar. Your hand and eyes are both at comfortable heights. You can also have multiple views open -- I can share a large full-screen view of a whiteboard over Zoom, and on a different screen, zoom in on what I'm specifically drawing. Working this way, I have perfect handwriting, and uncanny artistic ability. You also don't have alignment issues.
Major issue is having lag-free software. Very low latency makes a huge difference.
Very useful.
I would really like it if it had better snapping to lines/boundaries on the underlying PDF.
Mostly when I have to fill out a stupid form and sign it.
I've been doing this with xournal for years :)
I'm a lecturer and used Xournal extensively during COVID to write on slides while lecturing. I had a Wacom on my desk, and switching from slides to handwriting was completely seamless. I think it made the lectures much more engaging. So thanks to the Xournal team!
I used the older Xournal, since - if I recall correctly - the rewrite is missing full-screen support.