Ask HN: Anyone else quickly losing confidence in Amazon?
What's worse, there seems to be zero way to report these listings. I tried submitting a review warning other customers about the fake reviews for a fake product, but the review was not approved. In that particular instance, I was actively recommended a "wasp trap" by Amazon. Curious, I saw it was rated 4.8.
Turns out the positive reviews were all for... a pet cemetery headstone (complete with photos, to make the issue completely unambiguous). The listing itself was posted by a seller that had almost all negative reviews that were -- removed by Amazon! The reason? Amazon took responsibility, since it was fulfilled by Amazon. The problem: none of the negative reviews had anything to do with things like shipping time. They were all basically calling the product a scam.
This seems like a looming disaster for Amazon. It baffles me that there is no way for customers to at least report these issues. I've done most of my shopping for the last 15 years on Amazon, but I'm seriously considering stopping. Is anyone else in this boat?
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Also re-stated as, “You can’t handle the truth”, i.e., given the widest possible exposure to consumerism ever known, one is unable to make an informed choice. That is exclusively the responsibility of the consumer.
If the dollar store is selling product labeled as premium-quality which is not in fact, or is claiming certifications not actually granted, or contaminated products ... then that store has a problem.
At least when going to a B&M store, it's possible to examine goods and packaging and reject obviously damaged or returned merchandise. Amazon doesn't offer that protection except through a far more tedious return mechanism.
Caveat emptor is NOT in fact governing law and principle, but rather implied warranty is, within the US and most Western countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty
I now only ever buy from Amazon if I’m stuck for time and need it quickly / don't have 10 min to shop around.
Answer: .300
In modern times, a season batting average of .300 or higher is considered to be excellent, and an average higher than .400 a nearly unachievable goal.
At this point people seem to not care since Amazon will give a refund/exchange pretty much no questions asked. It's still extremely annoying and it's definitely not a good look for their business, but I assume the number crunchers have determined actually dealing with the fraud isn't yet worth it financially.
Ryan George - What Shopping on Amazon Feels Like https://youtu.be/nQpxAvjD_30
They’ve dealt with it in limited ways. For example, they’ve inked exclusivity agreements with certain brands (ex. Apple) so that only Amazon can sell them. So at least that inventory should be legit as they don’t allow third party sellers.
Of course this is somewhat to Amazon’s favor. If a brand is concerned about their reputation due to customers unknowingly getting counterfeits, they need to strike a deal with Amazon, and likely one that is favorable to Amazon.
It's a subjective heuristic I developed informally. Never formalized anything statistical.
Just looking at the ration between 5 through 1 stars, I have a high confidence judging whether they bought fake reviews or not.
It's a subjective heuristic I developed informally. Never formalized anything statistical.
Just looking at the ratio between 5 through 1 stars, I have a high confidence judging whether they bought fake reviews or not.
Local optimization beats global optimization. It's why Google went to the crapper too after it reached some number of employees. With 100+k people, no one cares about Google, but about their success within Google.
Someone at Amazon is meeting their short-term objectives and getting their bonus. "The brand" suffering is much more amorphous and harder to translate to a KPI.
(1) To assume high level roles, you must invest $LARGE_SUM_OF_MONEY in funds managed by the company.
(2) After leaving, you get back your money after $FAIR_AMOUNT_OF_YEARS. That's done as an incentive for folks to think long term.
Not sure how you could do that in a company as large as G or A though.
Google Search seems to be in decline but that has more to do with the slow death of the open internet than with any sort of internal issues at Google.
- the ability to engineer good products
- reputation
In the early '00s, most of the really competent people went to Google. Right now, most of the really competent people I know avoid Google, and it's sort of a second choice employer.
It has a lot of market power, but it's increasingly vulnerable.
The cost structure there doesn't help. High salaries+benefits / fewer employees was a good call. High salaries / 100+k employees is less competitive.
I can't predict the future, but I've been bearish on Google for a while.
Google search is worse because their revenue model requires optimising returns for their advertising arm, not for making a better end-user product. Shareholders demand it (in fact, this problem has a lot more to do with a public listing than team size).
The same is true of Amazon. Amazon’s shopping experience is worse because it is more profitable to be a logistics front-end for a million dropshippers selling specialised goods from tiny Chinese factories. The brakes are off and everyone with any influence over the company is incentivised to make the company more “efficient” (profitable).
- AWS - Amazon Ads - FBA - Marketplace
This is in order of profitability. It seems that Amazon doesn't care much about the Marketplace itself.
I’ve had too many incidents of improperly handled or expired food being sent to me or outright fake / gray market things.
It’s hard to lose confidence in a company overall though with such an amazingly easy and liberal return policy.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of things that are difficult to source outside of Amazon, so while I avoid any company whose co-mingling policy pretty much guarantees fakes, sometimes you just have to take your chances. Day Two can't come quickly enough, as far as I'm concerned.
I got in a fight with them because I ordered an SSD, I received a box containing brown packing paper. When I wanted a refund or replacement, they wanted me to return the SSD ..
Their returns policy works fine when you fit in an automated workflow. The moment they have to exhibit independent thought, you're screwed. And if you try to exercise your consumer rights, they'll come down hard. Chargebacks will be met with your account being closed, including losing any access digital media you've "bought" through them (which is why I still won't convert my legacy Audible account to an Amazon account, no matter how many times they ask)
Sounds familiar... in 2019 I bought a multipack of smart bulbs. Unfortunately, one failed after only a couple of months.
I asked amazon for a replacement, and they wouldn't do anything until I sent every single bulb back.
Depending on where you are and what you are ordering, they can bring it faster, but for most orders 5-7 days is the new norm.
Current state is buyer beware, assume adversarial with all amazon and amazon-facilitated offerings.
Not a single bad experience, although I did spend a bit more time than I would have preferred looking through product reviews.
For me, Walmart kills them. Generally better quality, trusted brands that probably won't burn my house down, and they'll bring it to my house from the store today. Or 2 day ship it if it's not there. And I can get groceries.
My kid loves her Gap clothes I buy super cheap from gap factory outlet online. 5 bucks for shirts, maybe 10 or 15 for jeans.
I'm struggling to see the point of department store clothing if they do nothing but mark up clothes.
Obvious disclosure: We are not a high fashion or trendy family, ymmv.
You may or may not case based on your disclosure, but lots of brands have “outlet store” and “main store” versions of their clothes manufactured differently or with QC difference. Sometimes literally cheaper materials and sometimes simply “binning” of QC.
Similarly, many brands of eg TVs will release shadow “holiday versions” of their TVs with worse warranties or lower quality specs meant to hit holiday sale prices (eg 50% off). Obviously iPhone 13 specs are know and won’t get away with it but Panasonic 65TDQ56P (made up SKU on a brand that does BF models)? If they subtly change the specs on the holiday version would you know even when shopping around?
Amazon is becoming a Wish also.
Maybe I am just fortunate to have not had an issue, maybe the counterfeiters are very good, or maybe I am just clueless, or some combination of these.
I try to stick to only name brand items. If there is a product that looks compelling but is from a brand I have not heard of, I generally look at both their website and other reputable retailers which sell that same product.
I largely ignore the reviews. Not necessarily because they are scammy (which I’m sure they are) but because they are so largely subjective. Reviewers will often give a one-star rating for a product because shipping was slower than expected. Or a one-star because the product didn’t package a standard USB-A cable or didn’t include AA batteries. Or a one-star rating in protest something of the company or product itself. Many times it appears the reviewer did not read the description closely enough, and accidentally purchased the wrong product, for which they blame the retailer.
I almost always purchase from Amazon.com as the seller vs. some Harry’s Tech Supply Store. Exceptions are made if there are thousands of Store reviews and a 95%+ positive rating.
In other cases, I will simply purchase the item from the official brand website, or some other retailer. It’s frustrating that Amazon allows commingling of products from different suppliers and retailers in a common bin. It’s also frustrating that other retailers like Walmart and target seem to have followed suit.
The Nike or Polo clothing sold there isn't overstock. It's legitimately lower quality items sold at a cheaper price. They're intended to attract price conscious consumers that like the brand.
When I returned it, I stated that I'd better get a 930e as a replacement, but the vendor (not Logitech -quelle surprise) told me that I would get a 930c, so I cancelled the order, and got one directly from the Logitech site (It was a bit more expensive, but not crazy more).
When I reported it, Amazon rejected my (polite, detailed, and backed up with photographs) reports on the product page, and ignored my reports to them. I would not be surprised if the item is still being sold as a 930e (it's not), and as being sold by Logitech (it's not).
I did mention it to Logitech, but they basically told me that Amazon is an 800-lb gorilla, and that they weren't gonna raise a stink (not in exactly those words).
Amazon’s used marketplace has similar issues, but Amazon enforces refunds. I once brought a typewriter that was used, but advertised as “like new.”
What I got was broken (shipped loose, in a cardboard box), and filthy (it literally looked like someone puked on the keyboard).
I did get a refund, but the vendor ghosted me. I had to exercise Amazon’s guaranteed refund. Once I started that, the vendor contacted me, and I was able to return the item (packed better than they did), and get a refund.
Because Amazon's so bad as everyone is detailing here I have started buying much less expensive stuff on eBay where I'd only buy it on Amazon from a 3rd party seller that ships direct, things like books and CDs. Have had uniformly good experiences without paying as much to pass through to Amazon vs. eBay.
Note the ridiculously low price (it has dropped quite a bit, since my experience, last year). I suspect a number of folks are happy with the Chinese version. Caveat emptor. Lots of apps and drivers can’t figure out what the camera is, and forget firmware or driver updates; let alone support.
To be fair, a couple of the 1-star comments are being listed at the top, warning of the scam, but the item has a couple of thousand “five-star” reviews.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CES5A60
Gave up on Whole Foods. Trader Joe's has shorter lines, good quality, better prices, and less wierdo stuff such as homeopathic remedies. Once in a while, Lucky's, which has short lines and unionized staff.
Haha, oh no, bad news! A lot of times amazon will have special "amazon print" editions and many times they have had printing problems... no print, wrong book inside, etc.
I have never personally seen one IRL but I've seen review pics of people showing the problems with their books they bought directly from amazon.
On the product page itself there are a few different page sections that show alternative products or similar products to consider. Only the single one at the very bottom of the page is not a sponsored listing. ALL the other ones are just sponsored listings.
I actually have more confidence in random ebay used listings lately. At least I get what was described.
But some can be harder to spot because of tricks that sellers use to essentially hijack listings for other products to carry all the positive reviews along. Or they may just go the route of putting completely fake reviews on the product. Some may even be from verified purchasers because they packed a card along with the product offering compensation for a 5 star review. Or they can get verified reviews in an even slimier way involving ordering from themselves and then shipping random crap to people who've they've sent stuff to before.
And then there's the inventory that's poisoned with counterfeits. Thanks to inventory co-mingling counterfeit and legit products can end up getting mixed together. There's a chance that even buying from a fully legit listing will end up with you getting sent a counterfeit product.
However, despite all of that I do still use Amazon. Their immense investment into logistics means that many things will make it to me next-day. And their return policies allow me to order with the confidence that if I get a fraudulent item (or just something I don't like) it will be fairly painless to get a replacement or my money back.
That said, I have also been making more efforts over the years to not use Amazon. I tend to buy all my major electronics from Best Buy or direct from the manufacturer. And I would never buy any food or medicine from Amazon. I don't want to risk things that go into me being counterfeit.
Oddly enough Amazon didn't invent this. All of the "big box" and online retailers had no-questions-asked returns before Amazon came along. My hunch is that one of two things have happened: 1) You figure out that the most cost effective way to manage quality control is through returns and refunds, and you streamline this process; 2) You go out of business.
The retailers who delivered quality goods and charged appropriately for getting it right on the first try are gone.
No. It's actually just about the most expensive way to do it. But the decision is made by the retailers, who (particularly in the case of Amazon, but also other chains, Walmart, Best Buy, etc) can effectively enforce the decision on their vendors unilaterally, and who coincidentally have virtually no financial stake in the matter (their vendors do!).
I can second that, someone I know personally who is building well-reputed longboards in his shop with a few friends, thought a few year ago it would be a good idea to sell through Amazon. Let's just say it didn't went well. Amazon forced them to take basically any returned longboard no matter how obviously it was destroyed.
While Amazon may pay for the shipping, many low quality products are probably losing money for the seller when returned.
Yup, apparently until recently Amazon didn't bother finding a new buyer for the returned products and simply trashed most of them. Now there's a cottage industry of people buying returns in bulk, sorting through, and reselling the quality stuff (kind of like the industry around auctioning unclaimed storage unit contents). However, I imagine that many cheap products even now don't go through the auctioning process and go directly to waste.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66qOop6J8Q8
The price premium to know I'm getting a legitimate version of something in this category is painful. Protein powder might be twice as expensive directly through GNC, but I share your sentiment. I'm comfortable with the risk of a fake widget, but absolutely not with food.
Correct me if I'm wrong but while there is a way for sellers to pay for non-commingled inventory... this is not signaled to consumers in any way either, this is a benefit to the seller to avoid increased returns, not to you as a customer. So you have no way of knowing where any particular "sold by amazon" or "fulfilled by amazon" item comes from. Probably by design... it would not surprise me if "no discussing commingling" was a rule too. It's in Amazon's interest to keep this opaque so that consumers treat them all as interchangeable commodities rather than favoring one storefront or another. Consumer loyalty would be detrimental to amazon's leverage over sellers.
everyone hates the non-prime items because they come slower and frequently incur large shipping costs... but those are the only items that are guaranteed to come from a trustworthy supply chain (if you trust the seller). Prices are actually often higher than a direct transaction with a vendor because they pay large fees to transact on amazon's platform too, and the shipping costs are often more sensible as well.
You really need to price it out because between prime costs, platform costs, shipping costs, etc, amazon is often not that much cheaper than directly transacting with a merchant, and then you would get a trustworthy supply chain by default.
The only thing keeping me on the platform is the unlimited 5% back from the amazon prime card (vs 3% for the card without prime), which can be worth it for certain big-ticket, difficult-to-counterfeit electronic items... and even then, I may end up significantly reducing my usage because Amazon has recently sent me a warning telling me to knock it off (a string of items damaged in shipment). Well, I'll have to make sure I don't order anything I might want to return, then... and I'm definitely going to re-evaluate in light of the price increase kicking in for my next renewal. The platform flat-out does not work if they start getting bitchy about returns given how awful it is in other considerations.
If toxic products are getting into consumer food I would hope the FDA or some other regulatory agency would sue Amazon to oblivion. The USA is supposed to be better than this.
I acknowledge there are some obscure supplements/etc that are difficult to source from third parties but.. a lot, you can.
It used to be easy to tell which items are from third-party sellers, now often that's hidden.
It used to be that I could trust Amazon to have a reasonable price, so I didn't have to price-shop every item every time. Now, many common items are only available from third-party sellers with wildly inflated prices. Now I feel like I have to comparison-shop everything to ensure it's not a rip-off.
It used to be that third-party sellers would be listed in descending order by total cost (price plus shipping). Now they're in seemingly random order, and you can't see the shipping cost until it's in your cart. Many sellers game this by listing a low price with ridiculously high shipping.
Really feels like Amazon is going backward at a remarkably fast pace.
Oh they aren't random. They're sorted by Amazon profit margin.
Spot on for me too. That calculus is slowly shifting in the other direction for me though. It's becoming a pain to have to ship things back repeatedly, and I'm starting to find that the wait time of shipping from normal companies is coming out as a wash when factoring in the multiple-shipment-return-cycle Amazon factor.
At least with other companies that don't have a wild west of third party sellers I can be reasonably confident I won't get an outright counterfeit.
I still order like usb cables and cloths to clean my glasses. That's pretty much it. Looking at the parent and grandparent comments and my experience, I'd say they've become a flea market, where maybe you can get a good price of some throwaway crap you don't care about, but wouldn't use for anything of value. And in reality, that's what a collection of fly-by-night shady sellers is. It should not be a surprise. It's a shame though, in principle the ordering process and older style prime delivery is way better than going to a store for almost everything.
A few years ago I didn't consider Amazon and Ebay as similar options. Now, I think of them as a wash in terms of risk vs. reward with Amazon having a slight edge on return policy (maybe).
I dunno, my point is you're right, it's a wash at this point.
what about a picture on the internet made you believe it? were there images of serial numbers that matched the items received?
Compare to the common opposite on Amazon, 50 listings of different products with an identical image.
They're not the most aesthetic cables, but they're cheap and they work.
Anker typically makes decent products too, but I don't have a lot of experience with their USB-C stuff.
Also I’ve never had that “apple cables suck” experience many had so maybe I’m holding it differently- ymmv
This is what really turned me off from Amazon. They say it'll get to you next day... and then it shows up several days later (or it gets marked delivered or never shows up, and you have to take the time to call them up and complain to get another sent).
And worse yet, there's always the knowledge in the back of your mind that if you complain too often, they'll simply ban you from purchasing from them [https://www.wsj.com/articles/banned-from-amazon-the-shoppers... etc]
Honestly the problems also coincided with the change to in-house amazon logistics... it seems like the delay rate with UPS/Fedex logistics is far lower than with amazon shipping. Especially pre-covid, UPS/Fedex were just absolutely completely reliable, if they said 2-day it would be there in 2 days, nowadays the most I've seen is an extra day here or there occasionally.
It seems like Amazon looked at the logistics problem and said "we can solve that 95% as well as UPS and if anyone complains too often we'll just ban their account, so there is no need to outperform it since we're not the ones who bear the cost if we don't".
After all - the way Amazon gets that 2-day guarantee is, if it doesn't make it through their logistics in time for delivery on UPS 2-day shipping, they have to pay more to UPS for overnight shipping/etc. That's money they can now retain in-house because lol fuck the customer. And I'm sure on-time delivery was a KPI for UPS/Fedex if they wanted to get paid, they had an incentive to get it there on time or else... and amazon logistics doesn't. Having those two entities be separate led to big improvements in quality-of-service as they each tried to minimize the faults in their own behavior, now it's one entity and it's fine if it sucks.
(not talking about busting the balls of some delivery driver here either, these are problems with amazon's logistics and shipments, not the drivers.)
I don't think that's fair. Amazon was among the very very few things that actually worked during the pandemic (in London). And they still have the best logistics operation by far.
What's not working is search. It feels like they're not even trying to show you what you're looking for. They're just trying to sell you something ... anything, regardless of how unsuitable or useless it may be.
It's so frustrating that I'm even resorting to Google search sometimes, which says a lot. Product search is universally broken everywhere.
And I agree totally with your point about search.
Yep, it's running about 25% 'on time' these days for me with Amazon. I've also noticed they'll continue to say 'arriving today by 9pm' even when UPS or Fedex tracking of the package says it is still halfway across the country and it is due to arrive in a couple days.
things still seem to be happening on the back-end of course, but the UI to display to customers must be in a database/service of its own and it is often getting stale and never getting refreshed.
It's getting very hard to wade through offers and find what is the one that will make you waste the least amount of time.
Walmart will actively price match Amazon. I know it won't be counterfeit and I can return in store immediately. I had a recent experience when I returned an unopened Apple watch. Despite them receiving it for several days, I never got a refund. I had to chat with customer service. I don't know if I had any products in the past that never got refunded. I only checked for the Apple Watch because it was a significant amount of money.
Amazon at this point is only good for cheap made in China commoditized goods delivered quickly. i.e. needed a pair of throwaway quality headphones recently.
As someone from Asia am amused.
But seriously, it's understandable that someone wouldn't want to wait for 20 minutes when the alternative is simply dropping off a parcel somewhere. Sure, there's always places that are worse but 20 minutes is relatively long, there's clearly room for improvement.
I'm done with Amazon for the reasons others have mentioned and will gladly wait 20 minutes just so to not give them a single cent of my business. But not everyone hates them as much, some folks might not care much either way and just go with what's most convenient. Maybe they don't notice getting low quality trash from some Shenzhen-based seller either. The same way many people eat junk food because it's convenient. If competitors can match Amazon in that regard, I think even more people will turn their backs on them. Because what Amazon does well is automation and logistics, not quality.
If they don't want to go to the store then don't have to...they can mail it back, just like Amazon.
https://www.walmart.com/cp/returns/1231920
Walmart has the flexibility of both.
If I have an expensive item I'd rather have the piece of mind that it won't get lost in the mail or in Amazon's warehouse, or like the case of my Apple watch...they've received it but haven't refunded it a week later.
Walmart customer service is open in the early mornings and evenings - more flexible hours than a UPS store or the likes and that's when I'd go where there's less people.
Also, while Amazon might seem to get it faster more often, its also the most unreliable. I've had way more taped up empty boxes and never-sealed bubble mailers from Amazon and many times I've had it promise next day and have it arrive a week later. Meanwhile other retailers seem to not have as many shipping errors and tend to hit their shipping estimates better.
Wholefoods is owned by Amazon.
Every product on the site seems to be rated 4.5+, which makes sense if they’re rejecting reviews in this way.
This might be a difference between the U.K. Amazon and their US counterpart but I’ve definitely not had any issues leaving negative feedback.
I can only recall ever having one review rejected, and I've reviewed probably hundreds of things.
I wonder if they have an internal system that marked your reviews in particular for more scrutiny.
I personally got my money back many times when issues came up, so to them it’s probably along the lines of “let sellers do their things and be quick to refund if customers complain..”
is this tradeoff worth it? Hard to say..