Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3167412
First term I've heard this term is in a YC funded company recruitment post. I know I'm directly referring to a YC company's recruit post here, but someone did not switch their brain on when they posted that one.
Stating that you should be a fan of 'brogramming' to get a job comes across as blatant sexism to me. Especially given the pages that promote it at the moment.
Seriously, you're a company now, not a frat club. I'm not trying to spoil your fun, I'm sure that's your culture, but you just can't advertise for men only roles in this day and age.
I don't know the law in the US but over here in the UK these guys would be opening themselves up for a nasty lawsuit.
211 comments
[ 0.23 ms ] story [ 248 ms ] threadAlso: I would try to hire flowgrammers because you know they are always in the zone.
EDIT: Make that flogrammers
They did one thing right though: they decided to be in stealth mode so we don't know who those fools are.
There are words that work in person, at a party, after several drinks, among friends that just do not work in text. Good writers know that. Sometimes bad writers learn that.
Is it sexist to state you're only interested in hiring male programmers? Yes.
My brother and cousins are increasingly "brotastic", with tough talk, and repeated high fives (followed by finger pistols). And they didn't even get it from the aforementioned chans; it grows naturally. As scary as that may be to the rest of us.
So, if the term sexist? That's two questions:
1. Is it intended to offend or drive away women? Probably not.
2. Is it offensive to women despite intent? Not for me to answer, as a man. But this is the more important question.
(Sorry, lots of editing. I realized I had a lot more to say. But if they wanted to go for this style, they could've just as easily made the first line say something like "looking for awesome dudes and lady-dudes with awesome skills and awesome personalities to join our awesome startup!" Or something as cheesy to ensure inclusion.)
1) Yes, even if implicitly. It says "I expect people to conform to masculine norms; everyone else need not apply." Whether or not they specifically set out to exclude women, they did set out to exclude everyone who wasn't willing to tolerate their sexist and exclusionary behavior, who will statistically be more female than male (though plenty of men are excluded too.)
2) Yes it is. Plus, as men stated up stream, it is directly offensive to some men too, and it should be offensive to anyone who doesn't want to work in a field populated by sexist assholes.
I certainly don't think women would want to be called "programmerettes" or "programmeresses" en masse. And I'm too afraid to Google those.
As to the points I was trying to make, my intent was to say that yes, I believe it absolutely would drive off more women than men by appealing to a culture that is male-dominant. But I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that it was done with the explicit intent of establishing a "no girls allowed" company. I do think those guys should've been more thoughtful about who they were appealing to, and I'm glad MattManser brought it to our attention; it's an interesting read. But I'm not as quick to call them sexist assholes. For all I know, they were going for a sense of cultural fraternity (that someone earlier in the thread excellently brought up as a word that, despite its roots, is a feeling we all typically aim to share.) Then again, that leads directly to my second point...
Being a part of that culture? That isn't a place I would want to work, either. But just because I find something untoward doesn't mean everyone would. That's what I mean when I said women get to decide what's offensive toward them, not men.
If men think something is offensive toward women, and women don't... Then I think it would be a very odd argument indeed. I think men can have an opinion on it, and I think most of us here probably agree it's at the very least tasteless, but matter like this, I would tend to defer to the party claiming offense. The question becomes what makes HER feel uncomfortable, and avoiding that.
It's something polite that could be done with anyone on any topic, but especially should be if the vast majority of a group finds it shockingly offensive.
(The 26th result is from a woman's profile on Facebook who commented on a link about brogramming.)
These super-duper-cool-stealth-YC-startup job listings are becoming more idiotic every month.
Anyway, is it sexist? At least in Italy you can't do that. But.. are there people who really like male only working environments?
I guess it means: "You write code, but you're not one of those nerds"
Also see: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro (definition #1) for what the "bro" part stands for. It's not technically "brother".
When I was in college the term was a little more harsh: "douche" http://peoplewtf.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DOUCHE-4.jpg
It seems they have better PR now.
edit: hdctambien's comment is on-point with the urbandic link. I believe a similar synonym with less euphemistic connotations is douchebag in certain circles, but not amongst brahs.
also see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi_AAqi0RZM
and this: http://www.quora.com/Brogramming/How-does-a-programmer-becom...
This is probably more helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqg01Nk3SYI
and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4uDPZGYWmE
and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm4KlxG1SEg&feature=relat...
bonus round: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJh-13maChY
The term "bro" refers to values like fraternity and solidarity. Even the word fraternity comes from the latin frater which means brother but "fraternity" is not a male-only concept.
I myself consider some girls to be my "bros" even though I wouldn't use that term, but I agree in the values it conveys.
Additionally, if a girl applied for that job in particular I don't think she would be turned down because of her sex (at least I hope so).
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brogrammer
2. A programmer who looks like, acts like, or is a bro.
3. A popular, cool, or otherwise normal person who has become intrigued by the fun of programming.
4. a bro who somehow learned to program
All of these seem to agree with what I said about it being bro + programmer and not itself about gender.
Try looking up the term "bro" on there http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro
Obnoxious partying males who are often seen at college parties.
An alpha male idiot.
a usually white young male
Stupid white trash guys in the 909 with lifted trucks, wife beaters, shitty music
The first piece of advice is "Attire: Polo, tight so the chicks can see how defined your muscles are".
The first piece of advice is "Attire: Polo, tight so the chicks can see how defined your muscles are".
I was indeed playing devil's advocate: it's not because the ad is clumsily worded that its author's intent was to exclude females.
"Just tried to jerk it to #siri. She couldn't get me off. #turing_test_fail or dyke?"
https://twitter.com/#!/brogramming/status/129638489905053697
I've just learned an important author safety tip: Google the neologisms!
I think people take themselves way too serious sometimes. Relax, there is really more important things in the world than getting upset about "brogrammers" or guys making silly jokes about Siri.
Hell, I love memes, Reddit, drinking, partying, etc.
But is that a professional or appropriate job advert for HN? Do we want to be a community which actively cultivates a 'no girls allowed' policy?
That's not fair. An unwise attempt at humor isn't actively cultivating such a policy. It may be inadvertently fostering such an environment, but so many comments are busy casting aspersions on the job poster without addressing that issue.
This is one of those things in the Valley that I really hate (I'm a ho-grammer). The immature attitude - up there with "rockstar" postings. Is there anything in the ad about the tech? Oh right, because it's "stealth" (another annoying Valley thing). I am also wary of a company that feels the need to state that programmers get some sleep. Really? The reality is that they're going to get tons of applicants because it's a recession. The applicants are going to be eager and inexperienced, probably not from here. The poster didn't evenhave to use brogrammer to get 95% men applying- that's roughly the % of men in the CA-Bay Area industry.
The new hires are going to work for a bit, the start-up will fizzle to nothing, but in the meantime the brogrammer will learn how to party in SF, go to strip clubs, get crunk, work hungover, and write passable code. He'd doubtless leave with a few great connections, and then starting or join another startup, where he'll fondly remember the ad that got him here and post a similar one. A kid just out of a midwestern school will see it and buy a cheap one-way ticket to SF. Like begets like (another thing that annoys me about SV). The monoculture continues.
Thus, it is the responsibility of every person in every industry to work hard to intentionally work against sexism or racism or discrimination of any kind (intentional, unintentional, or implied).
For better or for worse, when you have an industry as heavily male dominated as the tech one, it takes more active work to counteract the natural tendency of the industry to a masculine culture.
I am on a mailing list that spent a fair amount of time discussing the recent dust up over sexually explicit slides at the EECI conference.
One respondent wrote to the list saying that as an employee of the federal government she finds all of these controversies sort of amazing (in a negative way) since employees of the federal govt all have a very clear understanding of what is and isn't appropriate and would never show slides with sexually explicit material.
I know that everyone probably just read "Fed govt" and thought "PC, boring, and miserable" but as a women in tech, I would LOVE it if less of my time could go into being angry and frustrated, or spent trying to educate people on why things are offensive, and we could all just spend more time doing the work we are here to do: making cool technology.
If you're asking if they were sexist. (once again I haven't read it nor can I find it, I'm going off what everyone else has quoted.) Then it would seem safe to say no, what with them saying that it's not only "brogrammers" that can apply. I would also go as far to say that this post should be considered good if nothing else then the brutal honesty given. They party, they get "crunk" they brogram, which is to say they are comrades that support each other and like minded individuals. Is that bad? Not inherently so. Is it immature? I think they made sure everyone knew that was the case.
Also I forgot this part, to answer the question posted, (my bad.)
Do we want a community of people that supports a no girl allowed rule? Um hell no, I like women, generally they have ideas that I don't consider because I'm a male, my DNA and my social upbringing made me who I am, which is different then who anyone else is. I don't feel like that's what they were trying to do though.
That is poor logic.
That ad certainly tells me that's not the sort of company any woman should be working for.
I agree with mattmanser, if that was a UK job add they would be in serious trouble!
I think that we (as a society) want young people to see all avenues as open to them regardless of gender. I highly doubt that the company doesn't want to hire women or has any sexist intention. However, it is unwise for us (as individuals and an industry) to use terms like "brogrammer" because it subtly suggests gender. One might not mean it as gendered, but certainly some young people will and will internalize it as meaning that "programming is really a guy's thing". This is compounded by the fact that programming is a field where women aren't well represented. I'm not suggesting quotas or anything like that. I'm simply suggesting that when people are thinking about their future, perceptions about industries affect their decisions and terms like "brogrammer" can create perceptions.
The same could be said if a library position were to use female-gendered terminology. Library science is a field that is predominantly women and using female-gendered language can only help to reenforce that perception. We don't want to force males into library science, but we also don't want young males to feel like they shouldn't go into it "because it's women's work".
When someone says that something is "sexist", I think a lot of people become defensive because they aren't sexists. I doubt that the person who wrote the post is sexist. However, a person who believes in equality can say something that negatively impacts that goal in our society. I don't know if it should be called sexist, but I do think that it negatively affects what we generally want in our world and our companies. Maybe not a lot, but it's something to think about when writing things in the future.
edit: obviously, the above point excludes job posts that break laws.
I think the idea they want to convey could be more inclusively expressed as "We believe in being happy and having a life and interests outside of programming" or something like that.
> Polo, tight so the chicks can see how defined your muscles are
It's hard to see how this would apply to a straight woman.
That being said, brogrammer probably is a bit sexist.
Edit to add: 'Man' either started in Old English as man or mon, or came from Old High German man. In either case it meant 'human being'. It seems to have become male-only more recently.
Source: Marriam-Webster.
I think this YC-funded startup is likely more guilty of tone-deafness rather than misogyny.
And these YC guys... they're just knuckleheads using the latest buzzwords. The "web scale" meme may fit them too.
Serious, that's how they're blowing their startup money?