This reminds me of the scene in The Abyss where the rat is forced to breathe in oxygen-rich perfluorocarbons[1]. I think this idea of introducing oxygen through perfluorocarbons has been explored but not sure it’s made much headway in humans to date [2]. This paper seems like a clever idea to introduce the liquid anally where oxygen can diffuse through the linings,
and to also use same liquid (because of its viscosity) to scrub the intestines of mucus, to facilitate the oxygen diffusion process.
I've done it. Inflammation, sensitivity to bacterium, gut pain. The mucus regenerates but takes some time. I found that in my case diet cranberry juice and mastic gum helped until the mucus regenerated.
Some people with severe IBS get to experience this often. I am thankful to not be one of them.
Research on perfluorocarbons in humans progressed into several inventions. Being immersed is not one, but increasing air transfer within the lungs using a spray, reducing the impact of the bends through an injection, or reducing incidence of traumatic brain injuries due to swelling is a third.
There's quite a large group of doctors out there researching them.
I had the exact same though - this could make the suits a reality - providing that the traveller does not need to take large doses of morphine to deal with the pain or are dosed with amyl nitrite.
I bet you would be "gassy" for weeks on end - with a dangerous combination of both pure oxygen and methane - sounds like a party to me.
I'm guessing, with the reference to amyl nitrate, they are assuming that whatever is stuck up your ass to facilitate this breathing process, is going to hurt.
Cameron seems to make a big deal of "the rat really survived" (5 rats, in fact), glossing over the fact that the shocking animal cruelty was also real. It's rather hypocritical to pride yourself on the realism of the scene, while cutting all the parts where the rats defecate from panic.
You better not know what else scientists do to rats. And please, don't even start on the argument that they do it for science and not for entertainment. Entertainment in the form of science fiction is crucial for inspiring new generations of scientists.
> You better not know what else scientists do to rats.
Most people know what scientists do to animals—there have been enough awareness campaigns over the years. Animal experiments are tolerated, and usually strictly regulated [1], because they can potentially improve the lives of people.
> Entertainment in the form of science fiction is crucial for inspiring new generations of scientists.
I don't see why that (if it is true at all) is a reason to abuse animals for movies. If you wanted, you could make 'inspiring' science fiction showing harm to animals by using special effects.
Simply not true. There are some rules to limit the amount of abuse or distress for some types on animal, but that doesn't prevent anywhere near all of it.
Why do I have to think of the Apes, Dogs, and cats with a plug in their skull, for neuroscience? What about the countless bunnies and dogs, used for 'dermatologically tested' label for cosmetics, wet wipes, whatever, by rubbing that stuff in their eyes?
I'd genuinely like to see some objective information about the scene and how it qualifies as animal abuse. The AHA pretty closely monitors scenes with animals and has since the 1940s [1] albeit the rules and regs it follows have continually been improved upon. I understand that there are extenuating circumstances, like the tiger nearly drowning in the "Life of Pi," but from what I can tell, they mostly get it right. After looking for a good amount of time, I'm yet to find a substantiated account of how the rat in "Abyss" was subject to abuse. I understand how the scene might feel but feelings don't equate to actual events.
"The American Humane Association rated this film "unacceptable" because of the rat that was submerged in oxygenated liquid in one scene."
From the same page:
"James Cameron later admitted that four rats had indeed gone through the procedure without problems; the fifth, however, suffered a cardiac arrest. Fortunately, Cameron was able to revive it through careful chest compressions, and later kept it as a pet."
From the article linked in the original comment:
"Supposedly, the only purpose for the cuts in the sequence was to avoid showing the rats defecating from panic."
And you need only watch the scene to see a rat in enormous distress. I'm not sure what more you want.
[0] The first Google result is an explanation from American Humane themselves that they "were told there were no animals in the film. Therefore, AHA was not aware of the scene involving the rat and was not on the set."
I don't have the source but the navy tried something similar for allowing scuba divers to fill there lungs with oxygen rich liquid I don't think it was perfluorocarbons but the ended canceling the project because while they could oxygenated someone they were unable to exchange out carbon and ultimately the person they experimented on (yes human experiment) died from CO2 toxicity. Id be interested to see how long they can ventilate an animal like this
Almost everything we know about all the ways diving can kill you comes from the US Navy's experimental diving unit. A lot of people died after they intentionally gave people the bends.
If I recall correctly, similar experiment have been tried lately, where the subject survive. (maybe because they were shorter than the navy's one)
However, the subjects stated afterward that they felt adequately oxygenated, but also were on the verge of panic due to the constant feeling of drowning induce by having your lungs filled with liquid.
None of them felt like they would be able to do any kind of productive task in this state.
Whenever I have a tiny bit of water “go down the wrong pipe” I think about how truly awful it must feel to drown. Just inhaling a teeny tiny amount of water is so uncomfortable and sometimes even scary even though you can still breath and you know everything will be perfectly fine. I can’t even imagine how awful that sensation must have been for the people involved in this experiment.
Peter Watts' Rifters series is premised on the development of this sort of technology for human use and goes into uncomfortable detail about the (false) feeling of drowning
The last I heard, this form of liquid breathing may have use for premature babies. The concept is that their lungs may better handle liquid than air, so long as they don't start breathing air. It would require a respirator that pumps liquid, a tricky practical problem.
Why can't this be repurposed as a lung cleanse? I imagine that heavy smokers' lungs (or coal miners') could benefit from a wash and rinse, perhaps with some vibration assistance. With a medical team standing by to resuscitate.
At one point in time, they would have, had they existed at all: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31283950/ "Intra-rectal tobacco insufflation as a resuscitation method for drowning victims: A gold-standard in the 18th century"
One limitation I’ve seen on this is that the same mechanism can’t remove carbon dioxide, so this is limited to supplemental oxygen in like a surgery or emergency scenario vs a long-term alternative to say a tracheotomy.
Not necessarily as limiting as you might think. At altitude, people urinate more starting well before you are in any danger of altitude sickness because the air is too thin to breathe out waste gasses rapidly enough and the body compensates by shunting them out through the kidneys.
It's actually the opposite. At altitude you have to breathe more to get the same oxygen, and this makes your carbon dioxide lower than normal, this makes your blood too basic, so the body pisses out basic compounds to compensate.
dumb question -- is it not possible to just directly oxygenate blood? like what stops having a special IV that takes blood out, oxygenates it, and puts it back in?
You need to treat lots of blood continuously, so you have to cut a bypass into the largest, irreplaceable blood vessels, unlike smaller operations like kidney dialysis where you can just "plug into" an arm.
Mechanical pumping of blood is a problem as it damages blood cells. Infection is a severe risk. Any break in the operation or a temporary "plumbing issue" where the machine connects with the body can be fatal. So you need 24/7 monitoring capable of really rapid response.
Red blood cells are meant to travel into capillaries so must deform but will shear easily when subjected to stress which activates clotting action - mechanical pumps still cannot replicate the pumping action of heart.
Heart is truely an amazing organ - don't think we will get close to a mechanical replacement.
Has multiple chambers, Has chambers that pump sequentially with different pressures and volumes, Never needs to stop for additional lubrication, Never needs to be "charged", Never stops for maintenance, Is powered by oxygen delivered by the red blood cells it is pumping, Is controlled by the body's "proprietary" electro-chemical control system, Is not rejected by the body's internal bio-chemical defense mechanisms, Produces only carbon dioxide as waste, delivers that waste
to red blood cells, Doesn't have a single rough or chemically reactive surface, Forms perfect in-line seals around each chamber without crushing red blood cells, Never leaks a single drop, Doesn't retain any fluid in the chambers, Doesn't allow "backward" flow, Has a pump action and pressure that are strong enough to circulate blood up from your toes, but delicate enough to prevent damaging any red blood cells or capillaries
I don't care how amazing the body is (it is), blood flow needs constant flow with a pulse. Put two bellows in parallel, use a linear motor to push out quickly and pull in slowly on each, and voilà mechanical heart without shear.
After some research, it seems like ozone is a last resort treatment in non-evidence-based medicine when vitamins and magical crystals can not cure the cancer or HIV. At least, that is what the first page of Google results tells me. So I would also not advocate it.
Not a dumb question. What you've just described is an ECMO machine ("extracorporeal membrane oxygenation", related to the surgical machines oft known as a heart-and-lung machine). The act of putting the patient on it is called putting them "on bypass" and involves cutting through some of the most major blood vessels in the body, administration of large doses of heparin as a blood thinner, and a team of about ten to twenty people to ensure that they don't die. It's a major operation. After a while the mechanical stress of the pump causes blood cells to be sheared and lyse, causing haemolysis, which would otherwise be fatal if not replaced.
"Yes", is the short answer. Every ECMO machine I've ever seen uses a [1] peristaltic pump and, despite the use of tubes coated with anticoagulants and with various proprietary bits of chemistry [2] to reduce the size of the inviscid layer and hence shear stresses, the maximum length of time you can spend on them is limited. It's always a downhill battle and typically a "metric shitton" of heparin is infused in order to reduce the risk of thrombus, despite the hemorrhagic risk [3].
All of these things are fine balancing acts but you do not want to be on ECMO for a long time. Similar technologies, such as cardiac LVADs are only licensed in the UK as a bridge to transplant, for example, where a well-defined end-date already exists before putting the patient on them.
Future generations will look back on this era's treatment of animals as barbaric. They will have the benefit of being able to grow vat meat identical to any steak and perform drug testing purely in-silico, so they will not need to use animals in the way we do now, but still, when you remove the economic/scientific rationale and look at the fundamentals of our treatment of animals, you can't help feeling at least a little bit saddened by it.
Or maybe they won't care and have less empathy for animals. If anything, it seems like if there were to be evolutional pressure, it would favorize humans sacrificing animals to improve humans' condition.
Both of these issues have at their core the same question: are we gatekeeping "sentience" or I suppose, moral consideration, really - behind the rather utilitarian "so what's it done for us lately?"
Rarely do I wince at the mention of animal testing (which is not endorsement), but this article so thoroughly described the torture and killing of move and pigs in such a clinical fashion so as to be horrifying. All to prove a premise that is also quite horrifying in itself.
> [...] to help save human lives when standard ventilation methods are unavailable, as for example, during the recent coronavirus pandemic.
The tragedy of our era is how Science forgot about the antidote to oxygen toxicity in the 1950's.
While sometimes oxygenation and ventilation are useful, long-term use always accelerates deterioration. I knew a guy who lasted about a month on the breathing machines before giving up his ghost.
Both are also essentially diffusion surfaces for transfering vital substances into (and in the case of lungs, also out of) the body.
The surface area of the lungs is commonly compared to that of half a tennis court, about 80--100 m^2. Checking just now, the surface area of the human digestive tract is about 32 m^2:
One other "fun" use of perflurocarbons (like fluorinated crown ethers or cyclo-alkanes) is that, containing large amounts of 19F, they are MRI visible. So, you can directly image the compound in the lungs leading to some really striking images [1, 2] while they are in the gaseous phase, or indeed in the liquid phase
when one lung is partially inflated. I think that some compounds like these have been proposed for use in patients who have inhaled hot or burning gasses (viz: most likely blast/explosion/deflagration victims) and suffered an internal lung injury. Oedema can impair oxygen availability at the surface of the lung and it's my understanding that there is at least one or two research projects using PFCs as an intensive life-supporting measure as a consequence .
One can also do that with nuclear spin polarized 3He or xenon. The nuclei of these isotopes are sufficiently shielded from the environment that polarization (induced with circularly polarized light scattering off alkali vapor mixed with the inert gas) survives for quite a long time. The polarization is orders of magnitude stronger than that induced by magnetic fields in ordinary NMR.
And then you get the chemical shift differences of the dissolved phases when imaging with 129Xe as well – got to love SEOP and hyperpolarisation techniques in general! :-)
> Because they are highly dense, perfluorocarbons can also help flush mucus out of the intestine
> Introducing oxygen to the intestines would probably kill the microbes involved in digestion
Combining these two for any significant amount of time seems like a recipe for microbiota dysbiosis.
It would be interesting to somehow determine if most of the oxygen is absorbed in the small or large intestine.
Mucus is what keeps bacteria from reaching the intestinal epithelium, especially in the large intestine (https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0803124105), and oxygenating the gut will cause a bloom in facultative aneorobes including E. coli and Salmonella, while killing anaerobic commensals like Bacteroidetes.
People have no idea how important the microbiome is to their health. At the very least, one should make a "backup" of the microbiome so it can be repopulated later in case something goes pear-shaped. Messing with stuff can cause all kinds of endotoxin / auto-immune issues.
I'm no medical science person, but I had surgery a year ago for some type of severe gangrene, and while I miraculously came out whole, I'm still suffering horrible digestive issues that had nothing to do with it, presumably from the antibiotics needed to nuke the bad bacteria (because of intolerance to the one that was more efficient they had to use more indiscriminate solutions).
It didn't specifically cause the issues you mention, but it sure caused some.
Current backups are in close relatives. They'll take a sample of feces from a relative, liquify it and remove solids, and seed your rear end with the results.
If you’ve got a tube up your arse so you can breathe through your bowels, you’ve got bigger issues than microbiome ones. Even not needing that but being sick enough they’re considering that (if it was ever adopted) you’re going to have problems / you’re probably on wild cocktails of drugs.
It is very unlikely much if any of the tested fluids were reaching the small bowel - between the small and large bowels (you probably know this) you have the iliocaecal valve (which can reflux) but the change in diameter means that even if it was incompetent moving any sort of volume would need a cannulation of that valve
not surprising, as methane and hydrogen produced by bacteria in the gut and detected at elevated levels in the exhaled by breath air (i.e. gut->blood->lungs) is an actual diagnostic test for SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth)
I wonder if this kind of studies came out just as a way to justify something seen recently from rectal nutrition (Guantanamo) to anal swab covid tests (China)...
That reminds of one of the "enhanced interrogation" technique used in Gitmo where suspects were "forced hydrated via rectum" to cause often urination and defecation.
It seems all types of human cells absorb oxygen. Skin to a certain extent. The interesting part is researching and documenting oxygen intake per cell type.
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[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 191 ms ] thread[1] https://filmschoolrejects.com/the-abyss-breathing-fluid/?amp
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing
Some people with severe IBS get to experience this often. I am thankful to not be one of them.
There's quite a large group of doctors out there researching them.
I bet you would be "gassy" for weeks on end - with a dangerous combination of both pure oxygen and methane - sounds like a party to me.
I can only imagine they way they are indicating the administration of the oxygen would be painful.
Most people know what scientists do to animals—there have been enough awareness campaigns over the years. Animal experiments are tolerated, and usually strictly regulated [1], because they can potentially improve the lives of people.
> Entertainment in the form of science fiction is crucial for inspiring new generations of scientists.
I don't see why that (if it is true at all) is a reason to abuse animals for movies. If you wanted, you could make 'inspiring' science fiction showing harm to animals by using special effects.
[1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
And generally if you can relieve discomfort then it’s a requirement?
The fact you said “limit the abuse” makes me think you aren’t that familiar. No “abuse” is allowed.
One strict ruler up yours!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Humane#Work_in_the_fi...
From https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096754/trivia/ (which is incidentally the third Google result[0] for "the abyss american humane"):
"The American Humane Association rated this film "unacceptable" because of the rat that was submerged in oxygenated liquid in one scene."
From the same page:
"James Cameron later admitted that four rats had indeed gone through the procedure without problems; the fifth, however, suffered a cardiac arrest. Fortunately, Cameron was able to revive it through careful chest compressions, and later kept it as a pet."
From the article linked in the original comment:
"Supposedly, the only purpose for the cuts in the sequence was to avoid showing the rats defecating from panic."
And you need only watch the scene to see a rat in enormous distress. I'm not sure what more you want.
[0] The first Google result is an explanation from American Humane themselves that they "were told there were no animals in the film. Therefore, AHA was not aware of the scene involving the rat and was not on the set."
People dying during research like this is definitely on the extreme end of things.
However, the subjects stated afterward that they felt adequately oxygenated, but also were on the verge of panic due to the constant feeling of drowning induce by having your lungs filled with liquid.
None of them felt like they would be able to do any kind of productive task in this state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_microbiota
Are you suggesting an IV-drip with likkidfood instead?
This is why inert gasses can be quite dangerous to be around, you won't get the "I'm suffocating" feeling at all, you just get lightheaded and die.
It's very risky and requires a nurse at the bedside 24/7, so it's a last-ditch sort of intervention.
Mechanical pumping of blood is a problem as it damages blood cells. Infection is a severe risk. Any break in the operation or a temporary "plumbing issue" where the machine connects with the body can be fatal. So you need 24/7 monitoring capable of really rapid response.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellows
Has multiple chambers, Has chambers that pump sequentially with different pressures and volumes, Never needs to stop for additional lubrication, Never needs to be "charged", Never stops for maintenance, Is powered by oxygen delivered by the red blood cells it is pumping, Is controlled by the body's "proprietary" electro-chemical control system, Is not rejected by the body's internal bio-chemical defense mechanisms, Produces only carbon dioxide as waste, delivers that waste to red blood cells, Doesn't have a single rough or chemically reactive surface, Forms perfect in-line seals around each chamber without crushing red blood cells, Never leaks a single drop, Doesn't retain any fluid in the chambers, Doesn't allow "backward" flow, Has a pump action and pressure that are strong enough to circulate blood up from your toes, but delicate enough to prevent damaging any red blood cells or capillaries
MIT licensed, go save lives you f'ers.
All of these things are fine balancing acts but you do not want to be on ECMO for a long time. Similar technologies, such as cardiac LVADs are only licensed in the UK as a bridge to transplant, for example, where a well-defined end-date already exists before putting the patient on them.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peristaltic_pump [2] https://www.terumo-europe.com/en-emea/products/tubing-set-pe... [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5457945/
The detached coldness in the writing about the experiments on these creatures dates all of us.
I find it odd how this can float by while we pine over the potential sentience of a server at Google.
The acceptance of the brutality is inherent to our false sense of modernism.
The tragedy of our era is how Science forgot about the antidote to oxygen toxicity in the 1950's.
While sometimes oxygenation and ventilation are useful, long-term use always accelerates deterioration. I knew a guy who lasted about a month on the breathing machines before giving up his ghost.
https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1513/AnnalsATS.202005-405...
https://www.taxiwars.org/2021/06/folly-medical-hyperventilat...
Edit: though I don't like the title. It's not breathing. It's absorbing oxygen.
Breathing involves inhalation and exhalation.
The surface area of the lungs is commonly compared to that of half a tennis court, about 80--100 m^2. Checking just now, the surface area of the human digestive tract is about 32 m^2:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24694282/
[1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmri.26292?...
[2] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/mrm.28270?c...
[3] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/mrm.10008?c...
Combining these two for any significant amount of time seems like a recipe for microbiota dysbiosis.
It would be interesting to somehow determine if most of the oxygen is absorbed in the small or large intestine.
Mucus is what keeps bacteria from reaching the intestinal epithelium, especially in the large intestine (https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0803124105), and oxygenating the gut will cause a bloom in facultative aneorobes including E. coli and Salmonella, while killing anaerobic commensals like Bacteroidetes.
It didn't specifically cause the issues you mention, but it sure caused some.
It worked immediately after taking the first dose.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170109162333.h...
Been doing this for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant
It is very unlikely much if any of the tested fluids were reaching the small bowel - between the small and large bowels (you probably know this) you have the iliocaecal valve (which can reflux) but the change in diameter means that even if it was incompetent moving any sort of volume would need a cannulation of that valve
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2290093/