Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order
Razorpay is an Indian payment platform[1].
Recently Indian police arrested[2] the co-founder of a fact-checking website for a tweet he did in 2018. There are reports that Government is trying to nab him for reporting the fake news and religious hatred the current regime has been peddling.
Police demanded the data of the donors to the fact-checking website from Razorpay and they complied without a court order[3].
1: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/razorpay
2: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/28/delhi-police-a...
3: https://inc42.com/buzz/razorpay-alt-news-controversy-spotlig...
320 comments
[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 314 ms ] threadhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31431224
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30899352
imagine enriching yourself by having poor ppl transfer over their life savings and causing suicides. this is what Paul & YC/crypto proponents are okay with since its not illegal.
There is such a thing as using our brains and then living with the consequences of our decisions.
Twitter has been having a very hard time operating in India too(2) and routinely censoring stuff so while IANAL just remember that things are very different in different parts of the world.
(1) https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/arrested-over-a-fa...?
(2) https://restofworld.org/2022/twitters-censorship-india/
India is not pro-Western, and none of those things upthread are inconsistent with democracy. They are illiberal, perhaps, but not all democracy is liberal democracy.
This line of reasoning feels like a motte and bailey to me. When that fact is being trotted out by supporters it's almost always a comparison to liberal democracies. I doubt when Indians say "we're the largest democracy" they're comparing themselves to russia.
The West tends to cultivate them in relation to China, at which point calling them "the biggest democracy in the world" is simply a propaganda tool to sell them as the 'good guys' to public opinions (vs. China who are obviously the 'bad guys'). But the issues between India and China are independent of any "pro-Western" stance or political system, they are purely based on conflicts of interests between those two countries, including left-overs from the British Empire when it comes to border disputes.
New York Times:
“India is valued the world over for a great many things, but for three over others: the Taj Mahal, Mahatma Gandhi and India’s electoral democracy.” It is the 17th general election in India, being held in seven phases over 38 days. Nine hundred million Indians are registered to vote! Around 70 percent are expected to vote. The voting age in India is 18, and 15 million are voting for the first time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/opinion/india-elections.h...
USA + European Union = ~750M population (not voters)
Minorities are routinely targeted, court judgments are filled with personal opinions... i could go on.
The mere existence of a voting system does not a full democracy make. Remember, Russia also has "elections".
> court judgments are filled with personal opinions..
Sounds like another country that we know of.
This is what you are made to believe by the propaganda machine. As someone else mentioned here, India is "elected autocracy". And "first-past-the-post" election doesn't mean the government has support of the majority of Indians.
Sad to say as an Indian, India is going Russia way.
Getting almost anything done without having to wait months / years / decades requires some form of black money payment ie a bribe.
I thought that it was obvious :)
The cases where it becomes authoritarian is when it comes to religion and criticism of the government. This is the reason that the majority of the population does not even believe in issues that exist (social, political, ecological or otherwise).
Do you have any examples, where someone was arrested for simply criticising govt actions?
1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/editor-arreste...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai
Muslim citizens of India being arrested for criticizing the government's action of insulting their religion
One even had their family home demolished without any due process as revenge for criticizing the government
Alternative crowd sourced media houses such as AltNews, The Wire among others are under real danger as are socio-political activists, union organizers, smaller opposition political parties, etc.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944
I don’t agree with any of this of course but it is unfortunate reality here.
And before you complain, that's exactly what I was talking about. That's what we are talking about.
A number of legitimate polls have found substantial majorities/pluralities opposing the ruling [0].
> should have either seen pressure building up on "pro-life" states
On the one hand, I've definitely seen this pressure at the grassroots. On the other hand, there has probably been significant geographic sorting, especially as the states that are leaning towards de jure abortion bans have been trending that way de facto for years, likely driving people that care about the issue to friendlier states.
> or a BLM style movement in favor of legalizing abortion.
Give it a minute, abortion was a legally protected right until 2 weeks ago.
[0] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-views-on-abor...
"Complaints are everywhere ... that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority."
I believe the problem is laws related to religion and hate speech. They are stupid. Section 295 is non-bailable offence and can be easily abused by either side to placate group that feels offended.
The discussions about India sliding into authoritarian is interesting because strictly speaking many of these laws are pretty old. I wish that these laws did not exist but strictly speaking these laws have been abused to placate Hindus, Muslims, Christians(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai) at different times.
The only exception is if you manage to piss off someone higher up in the power hierarchy.
Its not so much as authoritarian as it is Darwinian.
It is not about govt per se (which is grappling with bigger issues - Russia, Srilanka..) but is about mid and lower level politicians, govt and police officers..
Also the pattern is inconsistent, some regions in India is polar opposite to this kind of right leanings - Ex. East of India. Some are neutral - most of South India. India is a large and complex country; the general sentiment is no different than looking at Ireland and thinking French politics generally sucks (or whatever appropriate example.. I have no clue how politics is in either of these countries).
Hindu Nationalist’s Historical Links to Nazism and Fascism
Sorry for the awful source, but the predecessors of the BJP were openly patterned after European fascist movements, there were contacts between them and a mutual affection. There's even a strain of European mystic Hindu Nazism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitri_Devi
These laws are vague to a fault and govt. has given themselves too much power (and I do not see it changing anytime soon, who wants to give up power?). It is easy to selectively apply these laws and that in itself can promote enmity that these laws were designed to protect from.
For Non Indians here, TimesNow is the channel and that news reporter is Laura Ingram of India.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
AltNews alleges that RazorPay banned their account (and later restored it) without cause: https://archive.is/R9OJ8
To me, it seems like RazorPay simply buckled under pressure. Why wouldn't they, they need to be in bed with the central govt, or their business falls apart pretty quick.
Yet, I can't agree with your comment.
First, I don't think Razorpay supports BJP or its bigotry, at least openly.
One indicator of that is that they have retained critical media like AltNews and Wire as customers from years. I don't think they'd do that if they were pro-BJP or pro-bigotry.
Plus, I've noticed that rightwing companies and founders are generally very vocal about their support on social media (e.g.: PayTM, Zoho). They like boasting about their ideology. I don't see that with Razorpay or its founders. As far as I can see, Razorpay is "neutral".
Second, I don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies. You can't really expect them to include a rightwing checkbox that automatically excludes founders. YC itself seems to ignore ideology anyway. To repeat the previous point, there's nothing visibly political about Razorpay. It's not involved in any Indian government projects. It's not a Huawei or Palantir of India. I really don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies.
Third, the justice system that emerges from Indian laws, police training, and even its legal jurisprudence is anything but liberal. And that's ignoring the unethical malicious thinking that's prevalent in those people. We have sedition, UAPA, a quasi-blasphemy law, and a dozen other similar illiberal laws. Section 91 of the CrPC does seem to compel companies to hand over any information that's asked. I see this as an undesirable, but inevitable, outcome of our legal system. Whenever I donate, I do so knowing that I may come under government scrutiny some day.
Probably, Razorpay could have resisted the demand a little. But I doubt any neutral company does that. And even if they did, it wouldn't be for too long - some lower court would have forced them to disclose transactions.
A possible future outcome: The law and judiciary are increasingly turning into kangaroo courts. If Zubair or AltNews are declared terrorists under UAPA, all donors (who were just donating to upholding truth) can be labeled terror funders!
I think it's time to consider Boycotting, divestment and sanctions of India since it's flat-spinning into the clutches of full-on fascism.
Very sad.
But you are starting a new type of apartheid.
It will need to start from the individual level so I will be encouraging everyone around me to limit their exposure to Indian businesses.
Western democracies can certainly do a better job if they are principled but they aren't. They take only two extreme positions - either be chummy with dictators or sanction/bomb them to oblivion. Little acts of social control to keep all the dictos in check doesn't seem to be taught in western capitalism's textbooks.
It was facebook of the past.
Having said that, razor pay has very less options here. Anti-money laundering laws across the world record sender-reciever details out-of-the-box even though the transaction is as benign as buying a box of chocolates.
In this scenario, govt came back to collect information, which it asked razorpay to collect as part of book keeping.
But, couldn't they fight it in court?
Why would they? They want to do business without much headache.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...
Then they did it again in the USA, preserving a backdoor in the end-to-end crypto of iMessage for the FBI:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
If you are large enough, the laws don't apply to the government's strong-arm treatment of you. They have all the machine guns, you have none.
Presumably Apple de facto does not have the right to widely publish surveillance-resistant end to end crypto without state retribution for same, even on home turf with ostensible 1A rights. This is why they are deploying clientside spyware to scan your local files for CP (or anything else they are forced to scan for in the future by a adversary-controlled DoJ or DHS (hello 2025)). The secure architecture of the iPhone and iPad make it impossible to alter or disable this functionality even on your own device.
The power dynamic is the same in all large countries, regardless of political structure.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
Even if you disable iCloud Backup, everyone else you iMessage with will back up all your iMessages from the other end, because it is on by default.
The idea that Apple can't read your data is mostly false. They can see all your photos and read all your chats, and all of the other files and app data from your device. They can do this without your device or password at any time.
They do this for the US government without a search warrant to over 30,000 user accounts per year, per their own transparency report.
Interestingly this also works for small fish: If you are too small, you can get by without sticking to the rules because you won't be on the governments radar.
Equal application/protection under the law is a myth.
The prosecution on the other hand documented pretty extensively that he and several Qwest execs were making false claims to the press to increase the Qwest share price so they could buy US West.
The current jingoistic BJP regime is doing all sorts of authoratarian things in India, like demolishing housing for merely taking part in protests [0].
They have also used facial recognition techniques to identify mere protesters and punish them severely [1].
They put a doctor in jail for saving lives of kids by paying for oxygen out of his own pocket, because he publicized those already dead [2].
I am seriously worried about what will happen to the people whose names were in the donors' list.
Will they be arrested, be put on some sort of shitlist and their lives will be made full of problems because they dared to fund a company that merely fact-check the lies spread by the IT cell of the ruling party?
Note that, the tweet is a mere screenshot of a movie from 1983. The director or the producer of the movie aren’t touched. But sharing the screenshot unedited put him in jail [3]. It is also a major factor that he has an Arabic name.
[0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-india-61785275
[1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-citizenship-protest...
[2]: https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/explained-who-is-dr-ka...
[3]: https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/kissi-se-na-kehna-m...
Or **opIndia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law
We ban such accounts, and creating accounts to do it will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://thewire.in/rights/up-man-arrested-for-wrapping-chick...
Amazing that in a country where there’s a Hindu in practically every single position of authority, Hindus still harbor such a deep seated victimization complex.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I just don’t understand what people are so angry about.
Everything is going as well as it could in a billion strong parliamentary democracy but people are still mad about old wounds.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
No the article says - Police "alleged" that he swung his knife as well, which he and his family denies. I don't know what really happened but it would be silly to solely rely on cop's version of events.
Especially in Modhi's Hindu nationalist India.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31999966 and marked it off topic.
1. Register your company outside of India. The US is an excellent option because of the solid legal framework.
2. Encrypt the data. Ask for access from your customers, even for your own support teams.
3. Use international companies for services whenever possible.
It would be great to have a regular process to delete old data if you don’t need it for business purposes, and this is hard to do because you could develop an innovative way to add customer value using the old data you don’t know of today.
It is not "hard to do" just because you would like not to do it. This is the first step you should be taking, not faffing around with international corporate registrations and encryption to create weak protection for data that you shouldn't have in the first place.
It can come from "any Court or any officer in charge of a police station".
Banks and fintech in many countries are even more exposed to data demands than regular data processors.
Pitchforks may be justified here, but perhaps not directed at Razorpay.
This is less moderation than we would normally do. Under normal circumstances, we would not allow a submitter to use a text post to put their own tendentious spin on a story like this—especially when the account seems politically driven (e.g. bringing up past partisan tweets to bolster a political case, which is not in the intended spirit of HN). Most probably we'd change the post to point to the most neutral third-party article we could find—or, if someone had already posted one, we might merge this thread into it.
However, the first principle of HN moderation is that we moderate less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is involved (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...). So I'm suspending normal practice in favor of this relatively small intervention.
Edit: I suppose I should add that none of what I've written here has to do with the specific details of the story, which I haven't personally looked into. Commenters in this thread seem to be doing a reasonable job of discussing it, with the exception of some veerings into religious/political flamewar, which we've done the usual moderation with.
I suppose I should also add that we haven't downweighted the submission—its ranking is being determined by user voting and flagging. And we haven't pinned any comments, except the moderation replies in flamewar subthreads like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000788 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000252 (standard practice).
Also Razorpay is not innocent here. They could have disputed the demand in the court. Could have informed the users that their data was shared with government. Could have shared only the transactions that originated in a foreign country.They did none of these.
Also note that donations could not have been done with a foreign credit card. So the intent is to harass the individuals that supported the fack-checking website.
Also, note that the founder and the company has been fans of the current nationalistic government. More reasons why they did not dispute the police demand.
https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728
https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
Why just that, they might as well fight the case for the accused.
> Could have shared only the transactions that originated in a foreign country.They did none of these.
We re sorry but it doesn't work like that. I am not sure if you understand that its not in hands of razor pay to bargain what they would like to share.
Let’s say if a CEO support country top leader and there is nothing wrong in it. He is Indian citizen and it’s his choice to do so.
I have donated several foundations in India from US via razorpay gateway and it works for few VISA cards.
You can’t dispute with police under this section given section 91 is a rare section. Your intent to harass, malign YC brand name and its companies. Please do read about section 91 and it’s implications.
Please check your claim and facts. Be a positive member to YC community. Any topic associated politics and hate should not be discussed here.
Let’s make better world talking about latest technology trends.
I think YC in future to flag post like this if they see motivation towards politics and false information.
Just updating the title doesn’t help much. The post owner pretended and presented a false and half narrative. He used only links that would be beneficial to his claim or final purpose.
They hate the ruling party, who to be honest are amoral assholes like most Indian politicians and bureaucrats, so facts don’t really matter to them.
This is not true. There is enough precedence where this was successfully disputed. Including by Google and Amazon in India. Would Apple turn in all the records if a police officer asks for any data they seem fit for an investigation?
Re Hindutva:, there is enough literature online to educate you about it. https://cjp.org.in/tag/hindutva/
This is untrue. Razor pay did not accept international credit cards.
>Data was sought from the startup about this account by court order.
There was no court order.
Did you learn this from WhatsApp University?
Interestingly, it's possible for political parties to receive foreign funding (via. Electoral Bonds) without much transparency to the electorate about how much they receive.
We do not accept foreign remittance as we are not registered under the FCRA Act. Only Indian citizens with Indian bank accounts can donate currently.
https://pages.razorpay.com/altnews
The upstream question is harder to answer, though: if the majority of the governed support this approach, is it democracy in action or an autocratic overreach?
If terrorists attack Indians, they are called 'militants' or simply 'fighters'.
At one point of time, it used to be regular news to hear about the jihadists bombing places.
I was about 8 or 9 when there was a bomb blast quite close to my house in Hyderabad. That was about 10 years ago.
Folks in the west appear to condemn others but not themselves, leaving a rather poor taste in the mouth.
The Mumbai terror attack was followed by similar attacks in Paris where civilians going about their day were targeted.
That wave of terror is over, probably because ISIS and AQ are no longer the force they used to be.
Now it’s domestic terror and social polarization.
Don’t think these laws are the reason why foreign terror attacks reduced.
There is sufficient Hindu diaspora outside, so this comment seems extremely uncalled for.
My point was there was sufficient Hindu diaspora outside but it has not been involved with violence of religious nature and are mostly considered model minorities.
The problem in India is well known, and it is an actual issue there. Although, I will add all of the events you mentioned have precursor events to them as well; not that that justifies anything.
it's high time the world recognizes this issue and places security concerns in respective countries for people having such bent of mind.
Out of the payments done through Indian banks to altnews, the government is searching if there is a foreign IP address. The social media trolls are making an issue that altnews is being funded by terrorists from Syria and other countries
Any idea how much money came in from the so called terrorist wih Indian bank accounts with a foreign IP addresse? It's 2500$
It's a mere 2500$
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/sto...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemint.com/news/india/alt...
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000429.
- Nupur Sharma, spokesperson of the governing party (BJP) mocks Prophet Mohammed on National TV saying that he had sex with a 9 year old. She then justifies it saying she was quoting the Hadith (Islamic religious texts).
- ZooBear on Twitter brings attention to the issue, via his channel AltNews
- India gets international condemnation, Gulf countries are pissed
- India apologizes to various Gulf countries and calls Nupur Sharma a "fringe element"
- Muslims in India are still very, very angry. There are widespread calls to behead Nupur Sharma.
- Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video streamed) for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media
- Now it's Hindus' turn to be pissed; they want ZooBear arrested (using whatever laws they can find)
- They dig up ZooBear's own old social media posts, file cases against him using blasphemy laws, and he gets arrested
- The govt is pissed too; so they try to lock ZooBear up under various laws, such as laws pertaining to how international donations need to be accounted
- The police ask RazorPay to hand over a list of people who have donated to AltNews, under Section 91 of the Code Of Criminal Procedure
- They comply.
Oh, and they are succeeding spectacularly.
- TV debates in India are charged and partisan.
- Nupur Sharma was debating a man named Tasneem Rehmani.
- Tasleem Rehmani said something denigrating towards a Hindu God (which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even unnoticed in India).
- Nupur Sharma countered him by saying "Do not mock my religion. Do you want me to start talking about flying horses or the fact that your Prophet married a girl at age 6 and consummated the marriage at age 9?"
- Various Islamic scholars have themselves said exactly what Nupur Sharma said. She was merely quoting their own texts in a debate.
- Debate goes on and ends. Nothing happens for days.
- Self-proclaimed 'fact checker' (not a journalist, according to himself) Mohammed Zubair edits this debate clip, removes the provocation by Tasneem Rehmani, only showing Nupur Sharma 'insulting' this religious Prophet.
- Zubair then distributes this clip across social media and various Islamic Whatsapp groups.
- In India, free speech is not absolute. Saying and doing things to create enmity between religious groups is a crime.
- The fact that what Nupur Sharma says is factual and simply a response to what Tasneem Rehmani said, becomes irrelevant.
- Many Muslims in India, millions of whom study in Islamic seminaries (madrasas), are whipped into a frenzy and behead multiple people with the slogan 'Sar Tan Se Juda' (meaning they will separate heads from bodies, in the ISIS style).
- Police and agencies arrest this 'fact checker' Zubair and are looking into his funding. This is where the RazorPay data comes in.
- Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods.
- Various organizations like the BBC, New York Times, Al Jazeera as well as India's left leaning publications decry Zubair's arrest as an 'attack on democracy'.
> Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods.
You're literally peddling IT cell propaganda.
This website shows 99 deleted tweets between 26th and 27th June.
You may argue that Mohammed Zubair is somehow an evil cynical person who wants to watch the world burn, but the fact is that tweeting a segment from national television is not a criminal offence and should not be treated as such.
> which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even unnoticed in India.
Kudos for living in an alternate dimension!
If he had stuck to doing what he did I guess no one would go after him.
He had caused diplomatic issues and bayed for nupurs head. It would do well to remember what a minority ABV gov did to tehelka and promotors. Guess that is what Modi gov is trying here.
I watched that entire debate and he didn't say anything degrading towards Hindu Gods.
Here's the context- Hindu RW claimed a fountain in Gyanvapi mosque (situated in Kashi) as Shivalinga (God Shiva's phallus)[0] which is a part of larger campaign of claiming Muslims mosques as Hindu temples by RSS/BJP. Started with demolition of Babri mosque (situated in Ayodhya) in 1992.[1] The war-cry of the time was "Ayodhya to zaki hai. Kashi Mathura baki hai" (Ayodhya is just a trailer. Kashi and Mathura are remaining)
Many Indians (majorly we secular Hindus) made fun of communal Hindus for claiming anything shaped like a phallus to be a "Shivalinga". I myself shared how in 1990s Hindus in San Fransisco started worshiping traffic barricade as "Shivalinga".[2]
[0] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/hindu-group-recognise...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_of_the_Babri_Masjid
[2] https://www.freepressjournal.in/viral/san-francisco-people-w...
I will offer you a rhetorical choice. Either we agree on free speech: that you or Tasneem Rehmani or anyone else is allowed to publicly mock Hinduism by saying things like you just did: "Hindu Gods are phallic in shape" etc. and in return Hindus are allowed to mock your favorite religion or way of life in any way. Or we agree instead on no free speech: that neither anyone can mock Hindus in any way nor can Hindus mock others (as is enforced by HR departments in companies). Either way, we will make it a level playing field.
I say this choice is rhetorical because this choice does not really exist.
In reality, if Hindus are mocked, violence is rare. Hindus have no text or decree saying that if they are insulted they must engage in violence. In the rare cases there is violence, it is not due to mockery but in response to extreme acts of violence. And even so, there are groups within Hindus who will hold them to account. One oft cited example by people like you in the context of Modi are the 2002 Gujarat riots where Hindus retaliated on the streets after 59 Hindus were burned alive by a Muslim mob in a train compartment. For 20 years, every left-leaning Indian and Western publication, the usual suspects, likened him to 'fascist hitler', even though he has been exonerated at every level of court in India, including in the final appeal by the Supreme Court recently [1].
However, if Islam is mocked or even questioned, there will be threats, intimidation, violence. The Nupur Sharma case is not the first and will not be the last. As examples, see cases of Salman Rushdie [2], Ayaan Hirsi Ali [3], Geert Wilders [4], Samuel Paty [5], Charlie Hebdo [6], Mila [7], Asia Bibi [8], Salman Taseer [9], Taslima Nasrin [10] and countless more.
You are well aware of this double standard. You openly mock Hindu Gods because you are pretty certain nobody will hunt you down and kill you. You do not ever publicly mock or criticize the Islamic faith because you know you do not enjoy that same guarantee.
Winston Churchill summarized this quite well: "While the Hindu elaborates his argument, the Moslem sharpens his sword.".
I believe this double standard must change. Hindus must learn from Israel in this regard. If you hurt the Jewish people in any way, they will hurt you back. You are a 100 year old ex-Nazi in Argentina? Does not matter, the Mossad is on its way. You express an anti-Semitic opinion somewhere? You will never find meaningful work again.
> Here's the context- Hindu RW claimed a fountain in Gyanvapi mosque (situated in Kashi) as Shivalinga (God Shiva's phallus)[0] which is a part of larger campaign of claiming Muslims mosques as Hindu temples by RSS/BJP. Started with demolition of Babri mosque (situated in Ayodhya) in 1992.[1] The war-cry of the time was "Ayodhya to zaki hai. Kashi Mathura baki hai" (Ayodhya is just a trailer. Kashi and Mathura are remaining)
Simply put, you seem to be unaware of the fact that Islamic invaders destroyed places of worship wherever they went as a sign of religious conquest. In India, several waves of Islamic hordes over time destroyed tens of thousands of temples in addition to libraries and other cultural centers. The ones you list are some of the most prominent and sacred to Hindus. Islamic historians bragged about this in their own chronicles.
Upon gaining independence, any self respecting country would have restored all landmarks: city names, places of worship etc. tainted by signs of conquest to their original form. But for reasons I will not discuss here, India did not do so. Hindus must therefore fight these battles in court.
Hindus and India aside, see the cases of Hagia Sophia, converted from a church to a mosque in 1453 after the Islamic conques...
> - Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video streamed) for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media
JFC, humans suck.
Also interesting after looking into it is that ZooBear has tweet after tweet mocking Hinduism, yet takes extreme offense at someone mocking Islam and seems to consider it hate speech.
Absolutely false. Can you share one?
https://www.opindia.com/2022/06/netizens-dig-up-old-posts-al...
https://www.opindia.com/2022/06/alt-news-mohammed-zubair-del...
The usual process is for the a bunch of policemen and beareaucrats to just show up unannounced; seal the office so that no one can enter or leave, and seize computers / phones, files and demand random stuff like invoices for $10 purchases from three years ago and so on. This can happen regularly until all business basically comes to a halt (unless the company complies with whatever the government wants). [1]
The next step is to threaten arrests and actually carry out some arrests on trumped up charge, and you can wait forever until trial (unless you comply with what the government wants). The trials usually result in acquittal after several years but the process is the punishment. The media in the meanwhile is happy to go along with the official version (that the company is question is allegedly employing shady accounting practices).
The next stage is painting the company as 'anti national', arrange for a few mobs to harrass folks / attempt lynchings and finally actually 'dissappear'/kill people (this last step is usually reserved for judges/writers etc since others usually comply before this step)
[1]: https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/10/02/indias-government-...
How is this working against the % of the population incarcerated?
disclaimer: gun owner and competitive sport shooter.
My grandpa always used to say:
>>I will never say "I am a gun owner" <-- Something gun owners should never say (see the 2nd amendment, as, when the 2nd amendment is repealed guess who they have a list of
--
Personally EVERYONE should know how to properly handle a gun. ESPECIALLY if you "hate guns" <-- If you hate guns, then you best be sure to know how to ensure (I love etymology; ensure - the act of being sure, proficient, con-fident (vouching for the fidelity|truth)) they are unloaded, safe, or disabled/locked/safe/well-kept/not around fucking kids on SSRIs.
/rant.
And yes, the 2nd was certainly co-opted. It is how politics is played; there is a very long list of co-opted issues which were not divisive before they became useful for politics.
And are people arming themselves more to protect themselves from the police? No.
Post-truth world is not pretty.
The India government is actually trying their best to persecute the journalist (Mohd. Zubair) and putting pressure on Razorpay to get to AltNews/Zubair. (The govt. is trying to insinuate that the journalist is writing articles criticizing India on the behest of foreigners - by cooking up allegations that he has been receiving donations from people outside India)
I'm only arguing that it's next to impossible to stand up to the government in India; Razorpay need not be pro-government or anti Alt news, they are likely being forced to comply with the Government's (perhaps extra legal) demands via shady tactics and they need to save their own skin.
This is also leaving out the part that this 'journalist' doctored a video about a person and posted it that is causing islamists to give the person beheading threats. 2 people who supported her have already been beheaded. This 'journalist' also has several allegations of fake news of his own. So it's not so black and white.
as for the allegations, I have not seen anything about the video encouraging killing, but have seen lots of coverage of the Indian government looking away from, or participating in, threats and actual violence against non-Hindi Indian citizens
As to the rest of your comment, his video was doctored to take the statement out of context and aimed at violent islamists to take action against the individual. His specific video is quoted by most of the islamists threatening her with beheading.
did the video actually tell people to kill or not?
"The website has published fake news[26] and anti-Muslim[30] commentary on multiple occasions, including a 2020 incident in which it falsely claimed that a Hindu boy was sacrificed in a Bihar mosque"
From the wiki page of OpIndia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia
Also foreign credit cards were not enabled on RazorPay
1. https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/
In other words, any justification possible for their views.
BTW, what agenda Alt News promote? Regarding injustice, if you are alive atleast you can hope for justice.
What justification you are going to provide for beheading of Hindus?
There is no point in having a petty argument when your whole world view is warped and you don't recognize what's going on in your country. You seem to only be focused on one-quarter of the reality that favors your views. It might be due to willful ignorance, it might be due to bigotry, who knows. I'm not accusing you of any of those, just stating the possibilities.
Either way, it comes to down to savagery in discussions like these and just shows you don't intend to seek the truth rather intend to provoke others around you.
P.S This is not directed at just you. This is directed at others who practice similar ways of getting their point across as you.
Sorry about the rant, but it's annoying and sickening.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Indian_sentiment#New_York...
Completely false.
Mohammad Zubair has been arrested for posting a screenshot from 1983 Indian film "Kisi Se Na Kehna" (Don't tell anybody). Yes, let me repeat. For posting a screenshot from a 40 years old Indian film.
"Democracy" my foot!
PS - I don't think that this should matter but unfortunately in today's India it does so here it is - I am a Hindu. A secular one not one of the communal big0ts.
https://scroll.in/latest/1027077/zubair-arrested-for-posting...
Your secular credentials come from the fact that you will only criticize Nupur Sharma for her comments but will whitewash comments of other panelists or for that matter posts of Md. Zubair.
PS - I am an Indian, who just wants equal treatment for all regardless of Religion.
I mean, I'm not sure a guy who's been dead for 1200 years AND supposedly has the favor of God needs any protecting, but I'm also not sure than any actual gods are in a lot of need of protecting.
Not that either arrest or beheading would be an appropriate response to an insult to an actually living and vulnerable person, either.
The atmosphere become highly polarized after Md. Zubair selectively amplified the outrageous comment on social media. He even translated the video in Arabic for middle-east countries to take note. He rejoiced on twitter when the Islamic nations was summoning Indian ambassadors and Indian product was being boycotted. If you are going at that length to malign image of any country then certainly people have right to demand legal action against your mischief.
No foreign donations
We do not accept foreign remittance as we are not registered under the FCRA Act. Only Indian citizens with Indian bank accounts can donate currently.
Does a criminal ever accepts his(her) crime?
AltNews is free to write anything on their website OR on their own page on RazorPay, that doesn’t mean a thing.
There are several hundreds other payment processors and ways that they can avail to get money from foreign nations.
As of current state of investigation, Police say that he has already accepted taking money from Pakistan and Syria.
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/alt-news-co-f...
No court order is required for this data. The relevant law states this:
Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station considers that the production of any document or other thing is necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation, inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place stated in the summons or order.
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw_away_1042
The issue is not misrepresented. There was no court order. The said police written request is not contested by Razorypay.
Looking at the past tweets from one of the co-founder it is not surprising to see the compliance with the request.
https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728
https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
I would be far more ready to believe you if you had stuck to the facts.
Please rethink this criterion. Those of us who live under authoritarian regimes have to be cautious to protect us from both our governments and members of our society who support them.
I don't see it as a hitpiece. A hitpiece is when the main intention is to hurt a reputation. But any damage to reputation here is a secondary consequence of this company's actions that deviate from a moral and legal standard that a section of society wants companies to practise. It's no different from the posts that complain about Google bots blocking access to gmail accounts without redressal - we don't consider them hitpieces though they damage Google's reputation.
OP's intentions, IMO, are to bring to the IT community's attention, this situation where people may face penalties for doing a moral good (donating to a fact-checking service to fight disinformation) and for having their personal data handed to a malicious government without even token resistance.
Since social issues with data privacy and government intimidation aspects have been discussed here before, perhaps they thought this is a suitable forum. Everything OP said about the case and company's actions are factually correct for which they provided supporting links.
The only thing I disagree in the post is the inclusion of YC. I don't think YC could have done, can do, or even should do, ideological policing. "YC company" can be removed from the post because it's irrelevant. But without it, this post may never have been upvoted because western audiences don't know about Razorpay, a local Indian company.
On anonymity and cowardice, I feel you are belittling the entire philosophies of anonymity and whistleblowing that have legal backing even in western democracies.
Plus, there is no upside to revealing one's name when living in a malicious society where online mobs carry out intimidation campaigns, and law and courts don't are not seen as protectors. If OP reveals their name, it may persuade you but what benefit do they actually get?
Nonetheless, if you are strictly against cowardice in all forms, please remember that individuals are not the only cowards here:
1) Razorpay, a well-funded organization with lawyers, handed over data without even a murmur of protest or legal resistance. There are always legal loopholes to at least stall or make the cops work a bit harder. But they tried none of that.
2) The Indian government has overwhelming voter and ideological support, and practically limitless executive powers. Yet it funds disinformation and propaganda networks hiding behind a huge network of anonymous social media accounts, and cracks down hard on individuals who dissent or protest, a minority in our society.
I hope your disdain for cowards is not selective against the least powerful.
Yes, it can seem unlikely to outsiders who haven't observed the behavior of Indian outrage mobs on Twitter, Whatsapp, etc. There's a frightening arbitrariness and unpredictable lack of logic in their behavior. One never knows what triggers them. But once triggered, they go all in with doxxing, death threats, rape threats, online bullying, threat calls, and similar. So the best option is to stay silent all the time. The second best is to murmur our troubles to sympathetic audiences from anonymous accounts. If we were to criticize Indian government and it makes it to the Twitter/Whatsapp mob ecosystem, here's a small sample of the outcomes:
1. Police arrested a muslim woman after a complaint by a hindutva activist for posting this WhatsApp status on Pakistan’s Republic Day: “May God bless every nation with peace, unity and harmony”. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/mudhol-woma...
2. Police lodged complaint Against Two Minor Muslim Boys for Listening to a Pakistani Song. The FIR against the teenagers was lodged on the complaint of a local hindu, who objected to their playing the song which praised the neighbouring country. https://scroll.in/latest/1021926/two-muslim-boys-detained-fo...
3. Gujarat legislator Arrested Over Tweets Criticising Modi. The arrest was over recent tweets after communal violence in Gujarat, in which Mevani had called Prime Minister Narendra Modi a supporter of Nathuram Godse, who assassinated M.K. Gandhi. https://thewire.in/politics/gujarat-mla-jignesh-mevani-arres...
4. Delhi university professor Held Over 'Objectionable' Post on Gyanvapi. https://www.thequint.com/news/india/du-professor-ratan-lal-a...
5. Complaint Against Alt News‘ co-founder Mohammed Zubair for Calling Militant Hindutva Leaders 'Hatemongers'. https://thewire.in/government/fir-against-mohammed-zubair-fo...
6. Physics Lecturer Held After Rightwing Activists Complain he Insulted 'Sanatan Dharma' https://thewire.in/rights/silchar-physics-santan-dharma-arre...
7. Police lodge complaint against Assam Professor Over Facebook Joke on Ram and Modi. He never mentioned Ram or Modi in his tweet, but still the complaint was accepted by police. https://thewire.in/rights/after-abvp-complaint-fir-against-a...
8. Woman gets rape threats for tweeting on Dipa Karmakar’s gymanstics in Rio olympics. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/jaipur-woman-gets-...
In this discussion, redditors discuss how to i...
How does sharing a mainstream Indian movie clip in 2018 be considered as offensive? The Indian government has stooped a lot.
The YC company razorpay founder from his previous tweets has serious inclination towards the ruling government, that's the reason he sold out private data without court order.