New car, bought from dealer, who swear they did not install it and are blaming another dealer from whom they acquired the vehicle.
As far as the dealer goes I intend to make a lot of over-the-top demands and threats until they replace the wiring with all-new OEM parts and a lifetime warranty, but I think I'll start from just pointing to California Penal Code 637.7, demanding a completely new vehicle, and seeing what happens.
New car, bought from dealer, who swear they did not install it and are blaming another dealer from whom they acquired the vehicle.
It's possible. Something like that happened with my wife's car. We only found out about the tracking device when they sent us a bill in the mail to activate the tracking service.
I encourage heavy demands, and talking with an attorney if they so much as twitch about it. “All the warning lights on” in a brand new car is a special hell.
Then, regardless, perhaps file a complaint with the appropriate state agency # they’re probably quite interested in what a prior dealer might’ve done…
My Honda dealer back when I had crummy credit "included" a gps but it was never explained why and I tried to say I wasn't really interested. Somehow I ended up agreeing, likely due to some interest rate bait and switch as referenced elsewhere.
They couldn't "install" it there so I drove off the lot. They started calling the next week to schedule the installation and I wasn't very eager to go quickly. It became apparent they really wanted this installed and eventually bothered me enough that I acquiesced.
This brought no gps functionality to the car itself so I quickly realized this was because I had ~ 610 FICO and they expected to repo the thing at some point.
I paid it off but never bothered to remove it and the whole thing really bugged me. Nobody mentioned anything the last time I bought a car with an 800+ FICO so this is either for bad credit buyers or they just do it without asking now.
> I think I'll start from just pointing to California Penal Code 637.7
I would strongly advise not doing that until you can prove that this was in fact a tracking device. I think a remote start/cutoff is much more likely, c.f.:
You’re better off just disconnecting it than getting new wiring. Wiring harness replacements are notorious for requiring obscene amounts of interior disassembly, and you might just end up with annoying squeaks and rattles.
Depending on the car it may not even be possible, some Volvos for instance are notorious for being complete write offs if the wiring loom is faulty because it ends up being sandwiched in between the bottom shell plates prior to welding and there is simply no good way to replace it without wrecking the car in the process.
Did they (or will they) tell you who the other dealer is? If they won't, then maybe the "other dealer" is a fiction to try to make you stop blaming them.
(I would expect that they would be reluctant to name another dealer that was actually innocent, knowing that it could turn into a libel lawsuit.)
I know some lower-end dealerships will install remote disable components on vehicles to disable in event of non-payment. This happened to a friend of mine. I don’t know if it goes as far as to report GPS coordinates.
> Car starts and runs without it, but every warning light on the dashboard comes on.
Yeah, the simplest explanation is still that it is supposed to be there, but has been spliced in there to save some time and has an as of yet unknown purpose.
Looks like a crappy remote starter honestly. Those things butcher the wiring. You'd find something to bypass the ignition lock somewhere on the canbus network as well, I wager.
That's what my speciation covers. At some point the search engine decided that page is a good result for that string, the content may have shifted since then as it currently isn't, or perhaps someone is back linking to it with "PL884-200" in the href? Either way it's something a dealer would add after market to a car and it has some connection to PL884-200.
Tracking devices don't need to be nearly so complicated nor hard wired into the ignition.
If it's a remote kill for a lease/lender then you'd expect some ability to transmit it's location. Why go through all the trouble of installing a remote kill that can't transmit it's location nor actually disable the car (it still works after removal)
[edit]
Going with the KARR "dealer alarm" per other post.
Hrmm, must be a master-key type system as stated above because this car comes from Honda with remote start, which is still working after I excised this weird thing.
How is it allowed for a dealer to cut wires and install a non OEM-approved electronic device onto the CAN bus? This seems like it would void all the manufacturer warranties and potentially create liability for the manufacturer if it malfunctions.
This is a complete hack job and I doubt there is a single component related to the electrical system that wouldn't be an easy denial from Honda unless the dealer played along... and in a modern car so much is tied to the electrical system that, while technically they didn't just void their entire warranty, they did just gut it to the point of being nearly useless.
Manufacturers must prove a modification to a car caused the fault in a product to deny an otherwise-covered warranty issue, regardless of who installed it. As for if this device kills the battery or what-have-you, i'm not sure what sort of liability the dealership is taking.
What do you mean "no matter what the manufacturer says"? If the manufacturer says your warranty is void - it is. If they broke a law in doing so is a separate issue that you would have to battle out in court.
When your 800$ laptop's speakers start buzzing and the service center says you need to pay 80$ for the repair because the tamper seal on the RAM was broken, are you really going to spend 30k and a year of your free time to sue them over it?
If you can get the big company to say they're denying the warranty for that reason in writing, you could probably find a no-win, no-pay lawyer to file an eight digit class action lawsuit.
They know that as well as you do. I've found they usually do more passive aggressive / ambiguous stuff than overtly break the law.
Once we had a Toshiba laptop with a bad motherboard. They replaced it with some other board that didn't have drivers for Linux, or even for Windows.
Lenovo took over thirty days to repair my IBM thinkpad (broken screen connector), and when it came back, the high voltage screen transformer was shorted to the case, so it shocked the heck out of me when I turned it on.
On top of that, they didn't replace the broken screen connector, and claimed it was "no fault". This was after the local lenovo repair people found the fault, and lenovo said they couldn't ship the required part.
>>are you really going to spend 30k and a year of your free time
Are there no small claims courts where you live? Ombudmans? It really isn't a huge deal, nor is it very expensive. It's not 30k - more like $50. And not a year, usually few weeks at most.
>>? If the manufacturer says your warranty is void - it is.
All of those things are protected. If the firmware melts the board, the CPU overheats, or the replacement part shorts something out then the warranty is void. However, if the failures are unrelated, then it's fine.
I once caught a motherboard on fire, then found some unrelated mechanical issues with it. (It still worked, except for the bad connector.)
The burn marks were cosmetic, and the shop sent me a DOA replacement. (That's more a story about the shop being awesome, but they were technically legally obligated to honor the warranty.)
Does this apply even if the manufacturer adds a clause like "any modification not authorized by [manufacturer] or performed by a [manufacturer]-approved repair shop voids the warranty"?
It doesn’t matter what the manufacturer says, they cant void the entire car’s warranty due to a modification. If a 3p repair shop performs eg. a brake pad replacement and then your brakes fail, then that repair shop is liable and not the manufacturer.
When we bought a brand new GMC, Dealer A installed a counterfeit backup camera.
Half a tank of gas later, Dealer B claimed the warranty was void because of the camera. We brought it in because the radio kept freaking out and it would drain the battery if left off over night.
There was an active recall for both those issues. Dealer C fixed them by installing a firmware update.
We got a car two weeks ago, the experience at the Acura dealership was pretty good (of course, we got presented the bullshit warranty stuff in the finance manager's room, but we were able to turn everything down for a couple of minutes and things were ok).
We also had a good time at a Toyota dealership, but any car buying with them had a $6290 markup....
Re. markdown, why should I? Also, what's sales documentation, is that something I should have received?
Given the state of the market, choosing between many cars wasn't an option, but outside of that, I care that the process is fast, there aren't sneaky charges, and the interaction is respectful. I prefer all my paperwork printed out, and that's what they did by default.
Our certified pre-owned GMC Acadia spent two months in the dealership. They needed a special tool to fix an emissions issue. GM said it would take 6 months to get the tool, so the dealership ordered one on eBay. They gave us a rental car the whole time, and even swapped it out for a premium trimmed GMC Terrain when we went on a family road trip.
The dealership had previously repaired the moon roof, and inadvertently damaged the headliner. So, while working on the emissions issue they replaced the whole headliner. The replacement is a little cheesier than from the factory, but good enough.
There's still an exterior rattle that they claimed they fixed 3 times now. At least they're trying. Last time I took it in, they removed several trim pieces and drove it around. I'm just going to have to track it down myself I guess.
I bought a new Mustang in 2010, and paid for the 5 year extended service plan. The hood paint corroded and the dealership repainted it, and gave me a rental car for the week. The hood has since corroded again and it's out of warranty now. I am mulling over splurging on a new paint job, with a classic Mustang racing stripe.
Buying the Mustang, I went to three dealerships. The first one, I got a test drive, and then the salesmen just walked away. I think he assumed I wasn't serious when I said I was buying a car that day. The second dealership, the salesman was super sleazy and pushy, and so I walked away. The third dealership, the salesman was really relaxed and professional. He asked if I was financing, and when I said no, he said he didn't like to waste time haggling and was happy just to move inventory. He offered me a price just $200 above the friends-and-family x-code price.
It's amusing to me that someone would go through the effort of deconstructing it, writing a gist, and posting it on HN before literally just googling "device under steering wheel" and seeing other people posting about the _exact_ same device.
People tend to imagine their lives are more interesting and worthy of surveillance than they really are :)
You make it sound like the NSA can never fail. If it's monitoring you then you are likely doing something deserving of monitoring. They can be wrong though and you'll still have been spied on and information collected for future use. Consider a career in politics, perhaps?
For several months, keyless entry stopped working on my car. It fixed itself. My unlikely conspiracy theory is I was being tracked and interference kept the keyfob from working.
If this is America, it would be the FBI who has jurisdiction. If this was outside America, CIA would be more likely to be installing hardware on a vehicle. If you hear the guys breathing on your phone line, that's probably the NSA ;)
Nah, the NSA doesn't need to bug your car. All cars after 2016 or so come pre bugged with an OnStar/StarLink/BMW Assist Remote/etc Telemetry System continuously sending data over 3G or LTE. Conveniently, the manufacturers already sell this data in an "anonymised" form. (cough Otonomo cough Wejo).
Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA when it comes to privacy -- you have none -- your life's data is to be mined, brokered, and sold to the highest bidder.
The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
Welp, my car is now effectively bug free. It shipped with 2G, got a free upgrade to 3G, because 2G was being shut down. It has an optional upgrade to LTE but the features don't justify the cost and the mounting is derpy (new modem is a different shape, so it's velcro + double sided tape)
I wonder how those telemetry systems work for EU customers. Cause that sounds pretty much illegal under GDPR (non-consented tracking, data stored overseas...)
Do you have a source for these claims? Without informed consent, they would be significant breaches of both national data protection legislation and the GDPR.
People tend to VASTLY overstate what sort of protections you get under the GPDR, to the point that I tend to assume nobody has actually read the regulations built off it.
In this case, there is no protection for data from your car, beyond the fact that carmakers don't want to share it. Writing regulations to cover it is being done now, and the tug of war is between giving any company who wants it access and giving companies the car manufacturers themselves select and get paid by access to it.
Read the article I linked yourself, no misinformation.
Quoting:
The contest is entering a pivotal phase as EU regulators look to hammer out the world's first laws for the ballooning industry around web-enabled vehicles, pitting carmakers against a coalition of insurers, leasing companies and repair shops.
[...]
Car manufacturers, guarding their gatekeeper role in accessing data from their vehicles, have resisted specific regulations for in-vehicle data, saying that protecting consumers is paramount.
"Europe's auto industry is committed to giving access to the data generated by the vehicles it produces," said a spokesperson for the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association (ACEA). "However, uncontrolled access to in-vehicle data poses major safety, (cyber) security, data protection and privacy threats."
And this is exactly why I have a manufactured in 2016 Subaru. I saw this regulation going into effect, investigated what vehicle would last the longest, and purchased the last available non-snitch personal vehicle generation.
We're in the initial stages of a new dark age for humanity. Surveillance Capitalism and our generalized Adult Immaturity is going to swallow the free world, and it may be hundreds of years before actual human maturity develops to allow whatever comes after.
> Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA when it comes to privacy -- you have none -- your life's data is to be mined, brokered, and sold to the highest bidder.
Intel agencies privatize their spying to get around warrants. Private companies spying on you are not a far step from the NSA spying on you directly.
> The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
Hah. If you have any political aspiration at all, you are a potential target. FBI lied to attain FISA warrants, and the lawyer responsible got a slap on the wrist. DC juries will never convict one of their own, there is zero accountability at this point.
They are imagining being part or the target of a conspiracy. It's a paranoid quirk of American politics, all sides see scheming and conspiracy.
Catholics, Communists, Woke subversives, or white supremacists. If you are part of American politics there is a mainstream conspiracy theory that your group has.
Also to cool your car when it's hot outside. Was 105F/40C today where I live. The parking lot will can significantly hotter than that in direct sun on tarmac surfaces.
Most people in the US do not drive manuals. You can get them in manuals but you have to hack some stuff, and yea, it will stall your car out if you start it in gear. In the US they are largely for convenience so you can heat or cool your car before you go out.
Ah I forgot about that. All my own cars were manuals.
And I've lived mostly in countries with pretty mild climates so there wasn't any need for this. Though even in the Netherlands this could be handy in the middle of winter or summer. Beats scraping the windows.
No manual I have ever driven will even start without the clutch engaged, so I assume a remote starter can bypass that somehow?
I always leave my manual car in gear in the opposite the direction the car would be likely to roll if the emergency brake ever failed. (If the car would roll forward, put it in reverse. If it would roll backwards put it in 1st).
I think that modern cars have electronics that keep you from starting the car without the clutch pressed. Cars I owned in the 80s and 90s would engage the starter when you turned the keys. Cars since then won't engage the starter unless the clutch is in.
It’s not necessarily a good thing. Imagine stalling on the train tracks and being unable to start the engine. You could still move the car using the starter motor, but not if it refuses to with the clutch engaged.
Just to clarify for less automobile oriented people: The clutch is engaged when the pedal is not being pressed, and disengages when pressed. Starting a manual car in gear without the clutch pedal fully pressed leaves the power train connected to the motor, and so the car moves when the starter motor turns the engine.
I am the GP of the comment, and that was my mistake. Thank you for the clarification because I did not know this. I meant, "the clutch pedal fully pressed" in my GP comment.
There's plenty that do, and in fact UK driving test examiners would frequently slip a car into gear before the candidate makes their first start. If they hop the car, it's an automatic fail, before you even get out on the road.
All the cars I've owned in Europe (all manual) had no lock out whatsoever.. No need to press the clutch or brake for the starter too work.
Having said that, when I still had a car I used to drive old cars. My newest car was a 2005 Volvo S40. But this was also perfectly capable of starting in gear and with the clutch engaged.
All of my vehicles were owned in the USA, and maybe that has something to do with it? Every model of car I have driven had this -- late 80s BMW, multiple Volkswagens, and a Jeep Wrangler. Hell, the John Deere farm equipment I grew up using (tractors, old lawn mowers, etc.) all had this too.
Cold weather primarily. You need the engine to warm up before driving and it’s much nicer to have the heater warm up the car and loosen ice on the windows.
You can run outside and start the car then come back, as I did growing up in a cold region, but remote start is sooo much nicer.
Makes sense yeah. Sometimes I'd do this manually but because I used a shared car park I'd need the spare key to do this safely with the main key in the ignition. I didn't consider this option. I haven't owned a car for many years and the last one was already pretty old :)
The one I installed tied into the brake light circuit, such that pressing on the brake would kill the remote starter’s completion of the “run” circuit. That’s a simple and fairly effective way to prevent a casual drive-off.
I live in Montreal, and when I had an ICE car, most days, it was fine to just de-icing the windows, then start the motor, and slowly roll out of the alley. Admittedly, most winter days, it's not that cold.
Kind of drives me crazy, the smell and pollution from idling ICE cars :/
It's hyper super duper useful in rough climates. Primarily when it's minus 40 outside and you have kids, it's nice to warm up the car slightly before entering it. If you get spoiled, you might then also remote start it when it's plus 40 outside and you want ac to at least start.
Also note that "if it's left in gear" is virtually irrelevant in North America, fwiw - something like under 2 percent of cars here are manual. Vast majority of vehicles and models do not have it as an option.
Thanks also, I get it now. I used to do this manually sometimes in the Netherlands to warm up the ice to make it easier to scrape off. But it involved the spare key to relock it while running and also to set the heat to full blast. We never get minus 40 though and where I live now it doesn't even freeze :)
And as we also have pretty tiny engines here, it takes a long time to heat up this way because first the cooling water needs to get warm which takes ages with the engine running stationary. So I only did this once in a while if it was really needed.
My old Volvo did have an option to open all the windows with the remote though which was great to let the heat out in summer.
Almost every car I’ve recently owned and/or rented has this option: unlock the car, then hold down the unlock button to roll all the windows down (and in some models, additionally open the sunroof).
I hate this feature with all my heart. Ive never needed it or wanted it and can easily roll down my own windows. 4-5 times ive come back to my car and windows rolled down after shopping or working as i must have accidentally activated it.
I hate it when it's operated by remote, but it's really nice to do it with the key in the lock. If you have to leave your car outside in the sun and you know it won't be raining, you can easily crack all the windows 1.5 inches or so to let the heat easily escape your car.
Note that, for emmesions, heating up the car in stationary is actually positive. It prevents driving a car with a cold engine. Cold engines cause horrible inefficiency in cars. It's one of the reasons why city driving is worse for mileage and emissions than highway driving. Shorter trips.
Seems to be caused by the period before the catalytic converter gets up to normal exhaust temperature.
“Vehicles fitted with catalytic converters emit most of their total pollution during the first five minutes of engine operation; for example, before the catalytic converter has warmed up sufficiently to be fully effective.”
Sure. But otoh the car is idling for tens of minutes maybe and possibly no single part of the engine and exhaust system is gaining the needed temperatures to operate cleanly. This means more emissions, more wear and more stressed out neighbours. I'm sure about the last one at least.
Spoiled? Being low tolerant to anything above 23C I find getting into these pressure cookers a very uncomfortable experience. I’m simply refusing to get a taxi when such happy summer driver arrives with windows down in 35C+. I’d better get into an ice cold car rather than that.
I live in a country where it's above 23 degrees most of the year :) I got used to it. When I first got here I used to wear T-Shirts in winter at the agony of my colleagues. But the second year was a lot tougher..
Here it's cold in the winter and it is definitely illegal to install a remote start system in a car with a manual transmission.
Before my life in tech I worked in car audio installs back in the 90s.
One day one of the senior installer techs put a remote start in his own Mazda truck which had a manual transmission. A bit of time went by and we were outside smoking one day when he must have hit the button in this pocket. Apparently the e-brake wasn't on, and the truck was in first gear, so it started and drove across the parking lot and hit the wall of a building as we all watched.
IIRC he just bypassed the sensor that would have been for Park on an automatic, since there were no manual transmission kits for sale as they were (and I think still are) illegal for sale where I live.
He would even refuse to do this sort of thing for other people so it was pretty funny it happened to him.
I didn't realize the percentage of manual transmissions was so low, no wonder the car culture there seems to idolize it.
In my climate, on a 45c day, inside the car's going to be more than that. It's definitely a workout for the generally imported car's A/C unit. I am guilty of turning the car on and waiting under a tree or something for the AC to bring the temperature down to at least ambient.
I'm looking at a series hybrid car. I must admit, pre-conditioning the car off the battery would be pretty luxurious.
I've looked at remote start systems. The specs always require an automatic transmission. The use case is simple: Today's high is 111F (44C), if the car is parked in the sun it's going to be a lot warmer than that inside. In those conditions we typically open the doors and wait a little bit before entering--using a remote start to turn the AC on a minute or two before getting in would be nice.
If the car is new ask Honda if the device should be there, if not ask the dealer a new car. I would never feel safe driving a car tampered by who know who.
You say it's a 2020 car, how many miles have you driven with the unknown device plugged and doing its job? Crazy stuff.
Looks like a dealer installed 'alarm system'. I bought a mazda in 2011 which had a similar system, as best as I can tell the dealer installs them as asset trackers for cars on the lot and then tried to upsell it to me as an 'alarm system'. Its a bit sketchy that they didn't mention it to you when you bought the car...
The 433MHz is likely a keyfob receiver (and possibly transmitter to spoof the original key).
It's an aftermarket car alarm and the button is the valet button. Pretty stupid to install one in such a new car as the car itself likely has better security than the alarm (exception of KIA/Hyndai).
I've seen this quite a bit from dealerships that purchase rental vehicles from suppliers after they've become out of date, or the rental company wants to offload them. The rental company won't bother removing the tracking/remote start bundle, and the dealer will happily sell it none the wiser, or worse, as a added feature.
When I got home I looked under the dash and straight away I could see someone other than Honda had been in here. The first thing I saw was this surface-mounted switch that doesn't belong there.
Does anyone else find it odd that he just bought a car and effectively started using it without going over it thoroughly and familiarising himself with what controls it contains? Then again, my experience has been with far older and simpler vehicles, so perhaps newer ones are so complex that people have given up spending any time to become acquainted with them.
You acquaint yourself with the underside of the dash of a new-to-you car before driving it?
I’m quite interested in cars (do all the repairs in our household except body, paint, and tires) and I’ve never looked under the dash before driving off, unless I was attaching a scan tool on a used car I was buying.
Not before, but certainly after --- and certainly some models have controls like the hood release as well as adjustments for the steering wheel and pedal position there.
Ha, well blame me for that I guess, but none of this stuff is visible from a normal seated position. You have to crawl under the steering wheel to see any of it.
When buying a factory-new car I do not ordinarily rip off the dashboard trim panels to see if the wiring has been tampered with.
No, this was not in a location you would see during normal end-user operation of the car given that most users will never do much more than wash the car and refill fluids. Neither is it expected behavior by an official dealership to install undisclosed components. Especially when the salesperson will (in my experience) do a pretty thorough tour of the car, under the hood, obscure storage compartments etc, and the aftermarket component in this post would not have been in a locations reviewed as part of that.
If this was a desktop computer I certainly would expect even a moderately knowledgeable user to open a computer direct for the manufacturer or retailer before using it to see if there were unauthorized components present.
No, I don't find it odd. All the critical controls are in basically the same place in every car. Steering wheel, pedals, turn signals, etc. The rest I can figure out as needed. No need to study in advance.
267 comments
[ 19.5 ms ] story [ 5463 ms ] threadAs far as the dealer goes I intend to make a lot of over-the-top demands and threats until they replace the wiring with all-new OEM parts and a lifetime warranty, but I think I'll start from just pointing to California Penal Code 637.7, demanding a completely new vehicle, and seeing what happens.
It's possible. Something like that happened with my wife's car. We only found out about the tracking device when they sent us a bill in the mail to activate the tracking service.
Then, regardless, perhaps file a complaint with the appropriate state agency # they’re probably quite interested in what a prior dealer might’ve done…
Call the automakers regional representative.
Found this: https://thriveglobal.com/stories/drivers-need-to-be-aware-th...
But you'd think it'd be more clearly a GPS device.
They couldn't "install" it there so I drove off the lot. They started calling the next week to schedule the installation and I wasn't very eager to go quickly. It became apparent they really wanted this installed and eventually bothered me enough that I acquiesced.
This brought no gps functionality to the car itself so I quickly realized this was because I had ~ 610 FICO and they expected to repo the thing at some point.
I paid it off but never bothered to remove it and the whole thing really bugged me. Nobody mentioned anything the last time I bought a car with an 800+ FICO so this is either for bad credit buyers or they just do it without asking now.
I would strongly advise not doing that until you can prove that this was in fact a tracking device. I think a remote start/cutoff is much more likely, c.f.:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32040472
(I would expect that they would be reluctant to name another dealer that was actually innocent, knowing that it could turn into a libel lawsuit.)
> The device uses the car's cellular data peripheral to send this information somewhere.
Maybe somebody can find what that somewhere is, or help with how to go about that.
That’s not a tracking device, and those are pretty common aftermarket additions.
Yeah, the simplest explanation is still that it is supposed to be there, but has been spliced in there to save some time and has an as of yet unknown purpose.
You can search YouTube for repo tracking devices.
Perhaps this is a part of one of those units? They have "hard wired" as a option on the site, but it's greyed out.
Speculation: the site used to talk about a PL884-200 hardwire kit but they have since stopped selling it.
Here's a tear down of one that looks pretty similar in principle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chw__TwMgdI
Tracking devices don't need to be nearly so complicated nor hard wired into the ignition.
If it's a remote kill for a lease/lender then you'd expect some ability to transmit it's location. Why go through all the trouble of installing a remote kill that can't transmit it's location nor actually disable the car (it still works after removal)
[edit]
Going with the KARR "dealer alarm" per other post.
I found identical looking devices by using Google Lens and focusing on just the black box with the green button.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/never-buy-car-alar...
https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisit/comments/rnr48t/found_unde...
https://www.reddit.com/r/subaru/comments/7m9dv9/mysterious_b...
That's what the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty... is for.
This is a complete hack job and I doubt there is a single component related to the electrical system that wouldn't be an easy denial from Honda unless the dealer played along... and in a modern car so much is tied to the electrical system that, while technically they didn't just void their entire warranty, they did just gut it to the point of being nearly useless.
When your 800$ laptop's speakers start buzzing and the service center says you need to pay 80$ for the repair because the tamper seal on the RAM was broken, are you really going to spend 30k and a year of your free time to sue them over it?
They know that as well as you do. I've found they usually do more passive aggressive / ambiguous stuff than overtly break the law.
Once we had a Toshiba laptop with a bad motherboard. They replaced it with some other board that didn't have drivers for Linux, or even for Windows.
Lenovo took over thirty days to repair my IBM thinkpad (broken screen connector), and when it came back, the high voltage screen transformer was shorted to the case, so it shocked the heck out of me when I turned it on.
On top of that, they didn't replace the broken screen connector, and claimed it was "no fault". This was after the local lenovo repair people found the fault, and lenovo said they couldn't ship the required part.
Are there no small claims courts where you live? Ombudmans? It really isn't a huge deal, nor is it very expensive. It's not 30k - more like $50. And not a year, usually few weeks at most.
>>? If the manufacturer says your warranty is void - it is.
No, it isn't, that's the whole point.
I once caught a motherboard on fire, then found some unrelated mechanical issues with it. (It still worked, except for the bad connector.)
The burn marks were cosmetic, and the shop sent me a DOA replacement. (That's more a story about the shop being awesome, but they were technically legally obligated to honor the warranty.)
Half a tank of gas later, Dealer B claimed the warranty was void because of the camera. We brought it in because the radio kept freaking out and it would drain the battery if left off over night.
There was an active recall for both those issues. Dealer C fixed them by installing a firmware update.
We also had a good time at a Toyota dealership, but any car buying with them had a $6290 markup....
Given the state of the market, choosing between many cars wasn't an option, but outside of that, I care that the process is fast, there aren't sneaky charges, and the interaction is respectful. I prefer all my paperwork printed out, and that's what they did by default.
The dealership had previously repaired the moon roof, and inadvertently damaged the headliner. So, while working on the emissions issue they replaced the whole headliner. The replacement is a little cheesier than from the factory, but good enough.
There's still an exterior rattle that they claimed they fixed 3 times now. At least they're trying. Last time I took it in, they removed several trim pieces and drove it around. I'm just going to have to track it down myself I guess.
I bought a new Mustang in 2010, and paid for the 5 year extended service plan. The hood paint corroded and the dealership repainted it, and gave me a rental car for the week. The hood has since corroded again and it's out of warranty now. I am mulling over splurging on a new paint job, with a classic Mustang racing stripe.
Buying the Mustang, I went to three dealerships. The first one, I got a test drive, and then the salesmen just walked away. I think he assumed I wasn't serious when I said I was buying a car that day. The second dealership, the salesman was super sleazy and pushy, and so I walked away. The third dealership, the salesman was really relaxed and professional. He asked if I was financing, and when I said no, he said he didn't like to waste time haggling and was happy just to move inventory. He offered me a price just $200 above the friends-and-family x-code price.
People tend to imagine their lives are more interesting and worthy of surveillance than they really are :)
the three letter agencies don't care about people who play video games and watch cat videos all day
(Talking out of my ass)
unless you're suspected of smuggling nuclear secrets
ftfy
Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA when it comes to privacy -- you have none -- your life's data is to be mined, brokered, and sold to the highest bidder.
The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
The data is used for improved road safety (real-time traffic jam awareness) and also so premium clients can find parking spots.
In this case, there is no protection for data from your car, beyond the fact that carmakers don't want to share it. Writing regulations to cover it is being done now, and the tug of war is between giving any company who wants it access and giving companies the car manufacturers themselves select and get paid by access to it.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/your-c...
I can only ask that you refrain from spreading misinformation - it muddies the waters.
Quoting:
The contest is entering a pivotal phase as EU regulators look to hammer out the world's first laws for the ballooning industry around web-enabled vehicles, pitting carmakers against a coalition of insurers, leasing companies and repair shops.
[...]
Car manufacturers, guarding their gatekeeper role in accessing data from their vehicles, have resisted specific regulations for in-vehicle data, saying that protecting consumers is paramount.
"Europe's auto industry is committed to giving access to the data generated by the vehicles it produces," said a spokesperson for the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association (ACEA). "However, uncontrolled access to in-vehicle data poses major safety, (cyber) security, data protection and privacy threats."
We are in the long swing where people think only state tyrany matters. They forgot how bad private tyrany can get, of robber barons were.
We're in the initial stages of a new dark age for humanity. Surveillance Capitalism and our generalized Adult Immaturity is going to swallow the free world, and it may be hundreds of years before actual human maturity develops to allow whatever comes after.
Intel agencies privatize their spying to get around warrants. Private companies spying on you are not a far step from the NSA spying on you directly.
> The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
Hah. If you have any political aspiration at all, you are a potential target. FBI lied to attain FISA warrants, and the lawyer responsible got a slap on the wrist. DC juries will never convict one of their own, there is zero accountability at this point.
Why are you so confident about who the NSA cares about?
COINTELPRO anyone?
Catholics, Communists, Woke subversives, or white supremacists. If you are part of American politics there is a mainstream conspiracy theory that your group has.
used cars, on the other hand, are a different story. complain to American Honda perhaps? Contact info for anyone's convenience:
https://owners.honda.com/help/customer-relations
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Mail Stop: CHI-5
1919 Torrance Blvd.
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
And I've lived mostly in countries with pretty mild climates so there wasn't any need for this. Though even in the Netherlands this could be handy in the middle of winter or summer. Beats scraping the windows.
I always leave my manual car in gear in the opposite the direction the car would be likely to roll if the emergency brake ever failed. (If the car would roll forward, put it in reverse. If it would roll backwards put it in 1st).
Having said that, when I still had a car I used to drive old cars. My newest car was a 2005 Volvo S40. But this was also perfectly capable of starting in gear and with the clutch engaged.
My first car still had a choke :)
> My first car still had a choke :)
What car? Was it a Datsun by chance?
You can run outside and start the car then come back, as I did growing up in a cold region, but remote start is sooo much nicer.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/a19086/...
But yeah, icy/foggy windows are a pain to clear.
I live in Montreal, and when I had an ICE car, most days, it was fine to just de-icing the windows, then start the motor, and slowly roll out of the alley. Admittedly, most winter days, it's not that cold.
Kind of drives me crazy, the smell and pollution from idling ICE cars :/
They don't need to be warmed up for the engine. They still might need to be warmed up for the driver, though.
I've had cars with auxiliary heat just for this purpose.
Also note that "if it's left in gear" is virtually irrelevant in North America, fwiw - something like under 2 percent of cars here are manual. Vast majority of vehicles and models do not have it as an option.
And as we also have pretty tiny engines here, it takes a long time to heat up this way because first the cooling water needs to get warm which takes ages with the engine running stationary. So I only did this once in a while if it was really needed.
My old Volvo did have an option to open all the windows with the remote though which was great to let the heat out in summer.
“Vehicles fitted with catalytic converters emit most of their total pollution during the first five minutes of engine operation; for example, before the catalytic converter has warmed up sufficiently to be fully effective.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
I don't there is a big benefit overall.
Before my life in tech I worked in car audio installs back in the 90s.
One day one of the senior installer techs put a remote start in his own Mazda truck which had a manual transmission. A bit of time went by and we were outside smoking one day when he must have hit the button in this pocket. Apparently the e-brake wasn't on, and the truck was in first gear, so it started and drove across the parking lot and hit the wall of a building as we all watched.
That's the key part. Proper :)
IIRC he just bypassed the sensor that would have been for Park on an automatic, since there were no manual transmission kits for sale as they were (and I think still are) illegal for sale where I live.
He would even refuse to do this sort of thing for other people so it was pretty funny it happened to him.
In my climate, on a 45c day, inside the car's going to be more than that. It's definitely a workout for the generally imported car's A/C unit. I am guilty of turning the car on and waiting under a tree or something for the AC to bring the temperature down to at least ambient.
I'm looking at a series hybrid car. I must admit, pre-conditioning the car off the battery would be pretty luxurious.
Yeah, it's getting more and more difficult to even buy them at all over here. Rather slim pickings.
You say it's a 2020 car, how many miles have you driven with the unknown device plugged and doing its job? Crazy stuff.
The 433MHz is likely a keyfob receiver (and possibly transmitter to spoof the original key).
https://github.com/merbanan/rtl_433
Looks like an aftermarket alarm system (and some of the other comments seem to confirm that).
Does anyone else find it odd that he just bought a car and effectively started using it without going over it thoroughly and familiarising himself with what controls it contains? Then again, my experience has been with far older and simpler vehicles, so perhaps newer ones are so complex that people have given up spending any time to become acquainted with them.
I’m quite interested in cars (do all the repairs in our household except body, paint, and tires) and I’ve never looked under the dash before driving off, unless I was attaching a scan tool on a used car I was buying.
When buying a factory-new car I do not ordinarily rip off the dashboard trim panels to see if the wiring has been tampered with.
If this was a desktop computer I certainly would expect even a moderately knowledgeable user to open a computer direct for the manufacturer or retailer before using it to see if there were unauthorized components present.