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Show HN: Emery – Personal productivity workspace (emery.to)

261 points by chernobai ↗ HN
We're building an app that helps people manage their schedule, tasks and notes all in one place.

The goal is to create a workspace, where people can manage their various priorities, both personal and professional, see a single schedule combined of all their calendars and manage their days without switching between multiple apps.

At the moment we've implemented Google calendar synchronisation, basic tasks and notes. Also Emery has some things we really wanted to see in other apps – private notes for meetings, categories that can be used to group tasks/notes/meetings together, weekly productivity reports.

Happy to hear any feedback and answer any questions!

190 comments

[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 177 ms ] thread
junwonapp
Nice! Is there a way for users to export data? Similar to Notion export to Markdown and CSV.
chernobai
Not at the moment, but it sounds interesting. It'll definitely help people feel more safe about their data.
insightcheck
Just to let you know, the privacy policy makes it sound like users can. Under "The rights of Users," it states (source: https://emery.to/privacy/): "Users have the right to receive their Data in a structured, commonly used and machine readable format and, if technically feasible, to have it transmitted to another controller without any hindrance. This provision is applicable provided that the Data is processed by automated means and that the processing is based on the User's consent, on a contract which the User is part of or on pre-contractual obligations thereof."

Maybe there is a manual option on the company's end that makes this assurance valid?

chernobai
Sure, we can accommodate it manually if the need arises
moltar
Is desktop app native or electron?

Will mobile apps be native or web view?

I currently use Tick Tick which has a lot of overlap with Emery. The main reason I love it is that it is SUPER snappy.

chernobai
We don't have a desktop app at the moment, just a web app for desktop browsers. Planning to introduce an electron-based app later on.

Technical stack for mobile apps is still an open question. Want to get the desktop app right first as most people we talked to prefer to use computers to organise their days.

Despite using web stack, speed of the ui is one of the things we're proud of.

dnh44
Electron or any other web tech makes it a no go for me. For me at least it’s not possible to get a desktop app right if it’s not native.
xpe
There are better alternatives to Electron.
hatware
Too many "Get Started" buttons IMO. If you're running a test ignore me.
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candiddevmike
$7 a month, that's pretty steep. How'd you come to that number for a less featureful version of Google Workspace?
chernobai
We had to start somewhere, so just picked a number we're comfortable with. Getting pricing right will take some time.
awillen
I just signed up for a trial. If it can replace my trusty notepad and paper, I can definitely justify $7 a month.
chernobai
Thanks! Let us know if you have any feedback during your trial
candiddevmike
You're just starting out, your costs can't possibly be that high. Maybe in two years you could charge $7 a month, but you're going to lose business doing it now. You also have no levers to turn to increase the price really, as anything close to $10 is nuts.
swyx
gotta love random driveby pricing opinions from people who have never used the product lol
xpe
> who have never used the product lol

this is non-obvious

codemac
obsidian charges $10/mo just for syncing! I hope you've yelled at them too.
RandomThrow321
Obsidian is free and you can sync using whatever method you'd like. The $10 is if you want them to sync your vaults for you, all while being end-to-end encrypted. I've paid for sync since beta (I'm locked in at a lower price) and I partly do it just to support the devs making such a good product.
ddbrx
so why don't consider $7 as a support for Emery guys doing great all-in-one day planning tool?
sergiomattei
Don’t lower from $7. If anything, raise it much higher.

This is as someone who also worked on a productivity app and priced it at $5/mo.

It’s a mistake you only make once. The economics will never work.

insightcheck
For comparisons to other productivity software systems, it's actually comparable to Evernote at $7.99 USD/month, with similar functionality (except the drag-and-drop from tasks to a schedule).

In contrast, Todoist is around $4 USD/month, which matches Notion's Personal Pro plan.

bachmeier
> it's actually comparable to Evernote at $7.99 USD/month

No, it's not remotely comparable to a product that's had millions of customers for years and years, after basically creating this industry. Most Evernote customers pay $70/year. And for that matter, Evernote regularly has sales to get new users at $42 for the first year.

xpe
Ah, the tired old arguing over if something is comparable or not. People. If you define something as binary (on or off), you have to set a threshold. Don't expect others to share your definition. But feel free to bicker away.
bachmeier
There's nothing to argue about in this case. Trust is incredibly important when you're asking people to give you their personal data. Evernote has an established track record, and this is a Show HN. Evernote is objectively better in that critical area.
xpe
> There's nothing to argue about in this case.

You realize that after this sentence, you proceed to argue your case...

Despite my poking fun at your phrasing, the remainder of your comment does make a decent argument.

xpe
Industry insiders and experts can tell you the history of who did what and when. But "comparable" is in the eye of the beholder (i.e. the potential customer). Does the customer anchor on Evernote? Maybe. Maybe not.

I tend to think "almost certainly not." I have not once thought of Evernote as an all-inclusive productivity, calendaring, and organizing tool. But that's just me.

insightcheck
It remains comparable in absolute terms ($7 versus $7.99). Users can therefore be conditioned to think it's not that expensive. Despite its respected legacy and heavy marketing over the years, it's not exceptional enough at its current state (after its switch to Electron) to say that no other productivity app can charge around that price.

If the app had mobile apps and better privacy assurances that your calendar information and tasks won't be used in advertising, the pricing would not be outrageous at all.

steve-benjamins
The right calendar, notes and task manager is worth way more than $7 per month to many people.
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tiborsaas
It's always easier to lower prices than to raise them.
xpe
This is the common "wisdom", which tends to make me skeptical.

But I do agree in the following sense. Once customers form opinions of a product and its pricing, those opinions tend to change relatively slowly. So managing expectations around pricing at launch is important.

There are many ways to tweak pricing expectations. Off the top of my head, some include: (a) "pre launch" pricing (used by Emery); (b) offering a family of products or modules or whatever, each of which is priced separately, implying that major additions will be an additional cost; (c) varying support levels; (d) varying usage levels; (e) extras such as security & encryption that enterprises will pay for; ...

octokatt
Am I able to link to my own markdown docs, or do I only make notes in your closed app?
quickthrower2
Nice looking app and landing page. Well done on the launch.

I am probably not a buyer of this product, because I don't find switching apps enough of a pain point. Happy to use Gmail and notion ... for now.

insightcheck
I like the "Cancel in one click" message, and the drag-and-drop UI from tasks to calendar (plus Google Calendar sync), but I couldn't easily find (and still haven't found):

-What platforms are supported (it looks like MacOS from the demo video, but I couldn't find whether there is an iPad or iOS app, or whether it supports Windows and Android; access and syncing to a mobile device is very important from my perspective as a user)

-Whether it's possible to "Get started" without using the Google sign-on; I typically avoid using Google to sign in, and prefer traditional registration with an email and password

-A clear and straightforward Privacy Policy, which would be a plus. You have one linked at https://emery.to/privacy/ , where you did write that users have the right to: "Restrict the processing of their Data. Users have the right, under certain circumstances, to restrict the processing of their Data. In this case, the Owner will not process their Data for any purpose other than storing it. [...] Have their Personal Data deleted or otherwise removed. Users have the right, under certain circumstances, to obtain the erasure of their Data from the Owner." The "under certain circumstances" seems vague, and I'm unsure what that means in practice.

However, you have to scroll down quite a bit, and I'm not comfortable with the use of Google Analytics. I'm not necessarily against using the app just due to privacy reasons (though other users might be), but I wish I could find out in advance of signing up, how much data collection I could opt out of before signing up.

chernobai
- At the moment it's a web app for desktop browsers. Looks like we should be more clear on that on the landing page

- We're planning to introduce other login methods such as classic emails later this week.

- You're right, we have to be more clear and give more flexibility on the data collection front.

paxys
$7/mo is extremely steep for something that provides a very tiny subset of features of a hundred other productivity apps out there. And there are no mobile apps?
chernobai
No, mobile apps are still in planning
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davidbanham
I like the concept, but the lack of a great mobile interface (either responsive web or app) is a real deal breaker. Signed up for the trial but will cancel, would love to hear from you again once the mobile side is ready to go.
chernobai
Well, given the amount of interest in mobile apps here, we'll think about prioritising it higher on our list.
mattei
Looks great, an “email sign up for updates” would be valuable as I’d give this a go once you announce an iOS mobile app. As it stands I’ll have no way to know when that happens.
chernobai
Good idea, we'll think about adding it to the landing. Thanks!
nsarafa
Is there a mobile app in the works too? I usually plan from mobile and find doing it outside of a native app clunky
chernobai
It's still in planning at the moment
sidcool
I didn't like that Google is the only option to sign up. And didn't like the 7 day free trial on providing credit card process. And the price is steep.
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pedalpete
I mostly disagree with your comment. Google sign-up is fine as a starting point for a product, I find the price is probably quite reasonable.

I can somewhat agree with requiring a credit card on sign-up, but it does give an idea of if people are REALLY willing to pay, or just kicking the can.

chernobai
Regarding Google – we're planning to introduce other methods later this week.

Regarding credit card process – that's understandable. Unfortunately, that's the most robust way we know to measure how many people would buy a subscription.

xpe
What is the primary goal? To measure how many people are willing to provide a credit card? Probably something else, right? So what is the key metric? And have you made a back-of-the-envelope estimate on the tradeoff you're making towards the key metric?
chernobai
Regarding credit cards – that's precisely our goal. To see how many people would be ready to pay (or provide a credit card at least). Of course, our product is not as developed as one would expect and we're going to see many cancellations. But it provides a useful data point for us nevertheless. Then we can act on the feedback and develop the product further to lower cancellation rate.
mtlmtlmtlmtl
It looks nice, but, but, but... Are there plans for a desktop version, ideally something that could work without an internet connection? I fail to see why an app like this would require a server to be involved other than just at the moment of syncing between devices. And even then just to negotiate a handshake. If syncing is the only justification, having such a subscription fee seems unreasonable to me as a potential customer. And I don't even need sync.
chernobai
We're planning to introduce a desktop app with offline mode a bit later.

Regarding syncing – it'll still be required for syncing between devices and Google calendar integration. Google calendar sync is being done on backend as it's the most stable way from our experience.

mtlmtlmtlmtl
Thanks for the snappy reply!

Warms my heart to see startups still catering to us web/app-averse "luddites".

I'm in no position to question your business model - I don't know your situation as a company, but $7/mo seems a little steep for me. But it's understandable that costs are higher early on. Do you think prices might drop later on, assuming your product is successful? Or when you have more of a feature suite to segment into different plans?

I quite like Bitwarden's model of having a limited free version, an "enthusiast" model with a few extra features nerd especially might like, such as yubikey support. That's $1/mo. Then they have various business facing plans with higher cost and enterprise features.

chernobai
We're thinking about introducing more accessible pricing models in the future, especially given the interest from student audience.

Given, that we're building this project in our free time with no investments, we want to get to a point where we can focus solely on Emery. That's why we're starting with a bit of a steep pricing.

Hamuko
Is it a purpose-built desktop app or is it just the web version stuffed into an Electron container (like Slack)?
rspoerri
I would love to see more integrated workspace tools. Combining calendar, notes, todo is a good start. But i my needs are from source material to documents and presentations. I use currently vscode for this need using (common-) markdown as preferred notes format and lately using csv for tabular data and excalidraw for visual notes. As a teacher and working in different research projects i work mostly with external partners, so everybody brings his own tools and data formats...

I like it because i can open a lot of files within the same application (pdf's, images, excel), unfortunately some formats need an external viewer (word, eml). I try to gather all data to my project folders. With every other notetaking tool i have to switch between a lot of different applications, because my notes are mostly based on other documents, communication or internet research (text, image, video, audio).

---

Some of the plugins and integrated applications i use:

- Vscode has todo applications that can gather all '- [ ] Todo's and add them to the sidebar, so i have an overview of all my project's.

- I use Marp (with some markdown-it plugins) to generate presentations from my markdown files (building the files). Using Pandoc i can convert them to Word/PDF files (based on templates). Pandoc can also convert some formats to markdown.

- I can download most websites and integrate it into my notes for offline (and future) reading using MarkDownload. I wrote a script that downloads linked images. github.com/jely2002/youtube-dl-gui is good to download integrated videos.

- I use syncthing to sync the data across my NAS, desktop and notebook.

---

What i am missing:

- Viewers for file formats that are not yet supported (currently word & eml).

- Collaborative editing of notes (github or similar is a possible solution with it's web editor)

- Realtime collaborative editing (currently i can copy to another editor, edupad.ch)

- Sync my meetings (date-time) i write down in markdown into my calendar (course-planning). I'm currently working on a ical generator for that reason, also to share calendar data to students or partners.

- Integrating my bookmarks into the work process would be good as well.

---

edit: fix layout

unsignedint
Not necessarily apple to apple, but I use Amazing Marvin [1], which allows similar type of configuration, and more. (It's kind of application where 10 different configuration would come out from 10 different people...)

The pricing is high-end, but there's one time option (which I opted couple years ago and paid itself, pretty much!) and optionally usable offline for most features.

[1]: https://amazingmarvin.com/

gnuj3
8$ a month. LOL.
qzx_pierri
The demo screenshot has a quote attached that says "Perfection is the enemy of good", and then below on the page it says "Your quest for the perfect productivity app ends here"

??

unsignedint
There's an optional feature that you can put in selected message, and that seems to be the placeholder text they are using.

In some way, that illustrates the app very well, as I've had to adjust many thing along the way figuring out what works and not, rather than getting it perfect right away...

lumost
This is a solution to a core problem of mine. My current workflow is to create/edit a google doc or quip doc for all of my notes/todos/daily planning. The price point is reasonable, and is something I would pay for as part of my personal "productivity" software budget which includes tools such as Jetbrains/grammarly/overleaf etc.

However you are too fast to make me enter my credit card info. It's 2022, can't I at least play with the app to see if it's what I want? Demo for a day? Create just one page of notes?

As it stands the landing page was not enough to get me over the hump to put in my credit card info. I somehow can't get back to the landing page now that I started the signup flow.

jrib
my 2 cents:

1. Give people a free demo so they can get their data into the system.

2. After the trial period, let them export the data out if they want (don't make the credit card request seem like a ransom request).

lumost
Personally, I’d expect to lose access to data if I stopped paying for it. As a good practice, the company could make it read only for some time before archiving it (what happens if I sign up again!).

Archival storage is so cheap these days that it doesn’t make sense to delete customer data unless they ask, or you are in B2B.

chernobai
That's actually how we do it. Once your trial ends, we switch the account to a read-only mode.
lumost
Just give me the trial without the cc then :)
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akprasad
Congratulations on shipping. Looks great!

From my limited experience in this space: any two users typically have very different needs and want to see very different features (mobile? desktop app? themes? integrations? offline?) before they would feel comfortable making the jump.

So my hunch (although I hope you prove me wrong!) is that getting serious growth requires creating a lot of little features and getting all of them right. I found the prospect of this exhausting when I took a crack at it years ago.

On that basis, my feedback is that it would be great if you all decide what you want this app to be. If you want it to perfectly scratch your itch, that would be a wonderful thing, and I think you would see steady growth in a niche market. If you want it to grow massively, long-term I think it needs to be some kind of platform with a killer edge.

For example, I think Obsidian falls in the platform category. Its killer edge is a great UI over plain markdown notes just stored on disk, and it's also a platform for all kinds of extensions on top.

Also: charge more! [1]

[1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=patio11+charge+more

satvikpendem
You are absolutely right, as someone also working in this space, I found it too fragmented to generate significant revenue [0]. Even in this current HN discussion, there are many people asking for various features like desktop and mobile support, source code integration etc. Figuring out a way to help solve all of everyone's problems will leave you doing nothing well, and I say this from personal experience.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32313370

chernobai
That's very true. Launching a basic MVP is getting harder and harder nowadays as the entire space is much more developed.
swyx
great landing page. will give this a shot.
satvikpendem
Interesting, very similar to what I'm building as well: https://getartemis.app

I've done a lot of research into this calendar/tasks/notes space, how does this compare to

- Sunsama [0]

- Daybridge

- Routine [1]

- Agenda

- NotePlan

- Cron

- TickTick

and the hundreds of others out there?

I've also seen a lot of apps like this shut down over the years, such as Sunrise [2], Woven [3] and more. Personally speaking, I even hesitate to continue on my own app as well because it seems the market is saturated with the same exact idea and style, but it seems that users aren't really that attached to one company for it to generate enough revenue to keep building.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24990238

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565629

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11676448

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26882680

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pigtailgirl
-- FWIW Artemis triggered my GANTT PTSD from bschool - couldn't close the window fast enough (but that's a me problem I suppose) --
satvikpendem
Hah, I talked to some people on my email list and they said they wanted a GANTT chart tool themselves. I didn't originally mean to make it GANTT related since I've never used one myself, but it's an interesting observation.
pigtailgirl
-- It looks like a great tool! - I def wasn't pissing on it - just wanted to let you know =) --
priyadarshy
At Sunsama we address this directly in our pricing: https://help.sunsama.com/docs/pricing-manifesto

Shutting down or acquisition is the norm for calendar/task tools.

You can add Cron to your list too. They were just acquired last month by Notion. I think Cron had more traction than Sunrise/Woven too.

robertlagrant
Given it's early days, it would be good to give people who sign up for a year now more of a discount than "until we launch properly".
colordrops
Not another one of these... I'd be into them if they integrated with standard protocols and file formats, e.g. caldav, carddav, org-mode, etc, and at least provided an API if not integrations with various open source tools. Otherwise I'm not going to have all my important personal information locked up into a proprietary system that may shut down or may be deficient in some annoying way.
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pvg
The bar for critique in a Show HN is a bit higher than harumph.

https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html

colordrops
I was pretty specific about features I'd like to see and problems I could potentially run into with this product. Quite a bit more than a "harumph".
pvg
"Not another one of these" is dismissive, followed by a laundry list of things you think are important which are specific to your needs but are not specific commentary on the thing being shown, which is what Show HN is about.
xpe
My two cents. I reviewed the Show HN guidelines. With them in mind, I found the parent comment spot-on and relevant.

I agree that saying "Not another one of these" is not the nicest tone. It could be improved -- how we treat each other in this community matters a lot. But the substance is useful, and I interpret the intent as consistent with "When something isn't good, you needn't pretend that it is, but don't be gratuitously negative." per the guidelines.

Speaking to the "it's my data" theme, there is at least one additional comment, which I also find useful, asking "What happens if I try this, come to depend on it, and you shut down for some (probably very good) reason? Will I be able to keep using it, or does it die with your severs?"

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dchuk
I’ve tried a lot of apps like this over the years. Two main things I’ve struggled with with all of them:

1) none seem to handle multiple calendars well. I have a personal calendar, a work calendar, and a side project calendar, I want them all to be independent, have tasks blocked out on them, etc, but still be aware of each other. So for example, I want to schedule a doctor’s appointment on my personal and have my other calendars mirror that time block, but scrub the details/make it generic. Super specific idea obviously, but if I don’t have it I have so much manual overhead aligning everything that I just give up and do it by hand.

2) they are all dogshit slow (not sure about this one, haven’t tried it). The combo of electron apps and what I guess is just calendar synchronization latency makes them have surprise ux patterns and overall just shitty experience in general.

A third thing is that I really enjoy planning my life with a kanban, and executing my day from a todo list (scheduled). That’s hard to nail.

Last: my notes live separately (as most people’s do I’ve seen anecdotally).

I hope someone can really succeed in this space because time blocking is so powerful, but nothing has fit my lifestyle quite right yet unfortunately.

mchusma
I use reclaim.ai to do the calendar sync. It works pretty well, worth a look.
dchuk
Oh shit this looks wonderful, I’ll have to give it a shot
kokolores
Thanks for typing it out. Number 1 is also something I would looove to have. Thought about implementing something myself often enough (as we creatives/programmers do), but well ...
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jtolmar
> So for example, I want to schedule a doctor’s appointment on my personal and have my other calendars mirror that time block, but scrub the details/make it generic. Super specific idea obviously

Actually not that specific at all! I know a lot of people have at least the work/personal schedule split, and personally I have the additional side project one the same as you, which I bet is pretty common among people putting on this very website.

I also know a lot of people have other arrangements they'd like. Partially out trans people jump to mind. And I'd like my personal contacts to know what my side project life is up to but not vice versa, which is probably not standard but I doubt I'm alone.

So I think customizable ways to separate your life and who is able to see it is not really a niche feature at all, and just a commonly missing one.

ChildOfChaos
How does "Planning you life with a Kan ban and executing your day from a todo list (scheduled)" look?

Is a scheduled todo list basically just a todo list with times attached? A little like time blocking?

How does your Kanban fit into that?

Gareth321
>none seem to handle multiple calendars well. I have a personal calendar, a work calendar, and a side project calendar, I want them all to be independent, have tasks blocked out on them, etc, but still be aware of each other. So for example, I want to schedule a doctor’s appointment on my personal and have my other calendars mirror that time block, but scrub the details/make it generic. Super specific idea obviously, but if I don’t have it I have so much manual overhead aligning everything that I just give up and do it by hand.

YES, THIS! Managing personal, family, and work calendars is a nightmare. So much double handling.

chernobai
Regarding the first point – that's something I'd like to have personally as I have to manage multiple calendars. We'll come there at some point for sure.

The second point – just give us a go :)

mr-pink
i had a great planner back in the day on my palm pilot. nothing has come close.
madrox
As someone deeply in love with Omnifocus, this feels like a step backward for me. Omnifocus has several features that Emery does not, and the only thing Emery has that Omnifocus does not is a dedicated notes space that isn't tied to tasks, but I'd rather use Omnifocus+a more feature rich notes app than use Emery.

If you'd like a bit of product advice...each of the verticals you're building on (calendar, tasks, and notes) are packed with competitors and feature rich. I don't think you can offer a better product by creating an all-in-one solution. At best, you can help customers with no solution today, but you're banking on their lack of awareness of their options in the space at that point, and that's a bad strategy.

If you want to be successful in the productivity space, I think it's far, FAR more prudent to focus on one of these areas (calendar, email, or notes) and get really REALLY good at it by serving a particular workflow or customer segment that doesn't have a tailored solution.

Though maybe you just built something you want to use yourself and are operating this as a side project. If so...god speed.

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chernobai
Well, we started to build it for ourselves and our own needs. It all started from my personal experience being an Engineering Manager at Bumble where I had to manage multiple priorities/projects and go through 40+ meetings a week. Then we opened for the public access and started to see some interest from other people.

Anyway, you're right, it's a long road ahead of us if we want to be competitive on this market.

madrox
That surprises me. As an EM myself, I don't see this keeping up with my task load. I assumed this was targeted at junior ICs who may not have their workflow figured out yet. I wish you luck.