Israel has extreme human rights issues they need to deal with before I'll consider doing business with them. The Israeli government insists on continuing to settle its citizens onto Palestinian territory, driving local Palestinians off their land. As long as settlements continue, businesses should not look to Israel as a country to work with.
Israel is only a democracy for those included as citizens. There are millions of Arabs in the West Bank who are explicitly excluded as citizens while the Jewish Israeli settlers all around them are considered Israeli citizens.
Israel is a democracy for those that it wants in its democracy and it is military rule for those that wants excluded.
No, I am saying that Israel runs a two tiered system of rights in the West Bank, one for Jewish Israeli settlers and one for the non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs. I believe it is wrong. Do you feel it is justified?
Contrary to what cq might wish to portray, Israel is by and large a fair society to live in. There's a reason that 20% of the population are Arabs who choose to stay in Israel instead of living in one of the surrounding countries.
Now if only all the Arab residents in Israel had rights and freedoms then everything would be okay. Israel is much better for the Arabs who are citizens that it is for the Arabs in the West Bank who don't.
It's not a fair society. I only lived there for a year, but it was enough time to understand that those people you speak of are considered sub human second class citizens by the establishment that calls shots. Israel is fucked. I mean that with no disrespect.
Both South Africa and Israel were created by European refugees fleeing persecution. Both countries became very militaristic and has Western allies who overlooked the way they treated their natives. Both countries where populated by a people who felt that their culture was under attack and vulnerable.
No one is overlooking the way Israel treats the natives. They treat the Jews fine! Oh, by natives you meant Arabs? Well that would just be a fallacy to say that.
In South Africa, the minority ruled OVER the majority. THAT is the definition of apartheid. In Israel, the Majority rules the minority. Which is the definition of democracy.
Also, there is a reason they are called "Arabs" and not "Israeli", its because they are originally from Arabia, not Israel. They have no roots in Israel.
I totally agree with you cq. Since Saturday 30+ people died in protests in Egypt. It was reported today that a news photographer in Syria got his eyes cut off before he was executed. Israel is such a douche.
But what does Israel has to do with affairs of her surrounding countries?
Why are we to blame for acts of Egyptian and Syrian authorities against their own people?
If ever, the UN and all of the Western World is the douche - why do they let it go on?
Did you ever ask yourself why the US and Europe got involved with Lybia's violent protests, and still remain completely silent about whatever is going on in Syria and Egypt?
You're right. Israel does have serious human-rights issues with the Palestinians.
But: Israel also has a thriving democracy that subjects its government officials to constant, withering criticism and investigation. We have a court system that isn't afraid to punish government officials. (We just sent a former president to prison for rape, and a former prime minister is being tried for corruption.) We have a free press, with newspapers and blogs that raise every possible political idea you can imagine. We have mass rallies and protests. We allow our citizens to travel abroad wherever they want, whenever they want, and encourage them to speak with people from other countries. We invite people to come from other countries into Israel, and to travel more or less wherever they want, without government supervision.
(And yes, many of these privileges are unavailable to Palestinians. Believe me, many of us in Israel realize this, and both vote and act accordingly.)
I can understand and respect someone who says, "I'll only do business with liberal democracies like those in North America and Western Europe." That's a reasonable and consistent approach to things.
But to single Israel out for attention and boycott, when many countries have worse human-rights records and none of the positive democratic attributes I mentioned above? That seems both unfair, disingenuous, and lacking in perspective.
specifically because israel has many characteristics of a liberal western democracy, it's worth being particularly concern about how militarism, ethnic nationalism, etc. flourish there.
by and large we know what's wrong with north korea, libya under gaddafi, etc.
we need to pay particular attention to a country that can almost pass as western and still perpetrate atrocious human rights violations, because it's more plausible that we could end up like that.
Israel got its territory the same way practically every other country in the world got its territory - they obtained it through a treaty, or they won it in a war.
You know, there's a term for holding Jews to moral standards no other nation on earth is subjected to.
And as far as 'extreme human rights issues' are concerned - in the Palestinian National Authority, the freedom to criticize the government is a sham, journalists are regularly killed by governmental authorities, selling land to Jews is a crime punishable by death, there's regular violence against non-Muslims, honor killings take place regularly and are considered acceptable, homosexuality is illegal, and women have to wear a headscarf to enter a government building. And you're not doing business with Israel?
People like you confound me. I can't tell if you're anti-Semitic or just completely brainwashed and blind to the facts on the ground.
Israel runs a two tiered right system. In the West Bank Israeli settlers live under Israeli laws while the non-Jewish Palestinians live under military rule where their land is constantly being confiscated for Jewish settlers.
That is wrong, plain and simple.
It doesn't matter what you said is wrong with Arabs, running a two tiered system of rights is very wrong.
When a party loses a war against another party, they don't have much in the way of rights until there's a negotiated peace. They certainly don't get to talk about 'their land' in any meaningful sense.
Israel occupied the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights after winning the Six-Day War. When Egypt - twelve years and another war later - negotiated a peace treaty with Israel, Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to them, and it once again became Egyptian.
Syria hasn't shown much interest in negotiating peace with Israel, and that's why the Golan Heights are not Syrian at the moment - and the way things are going, likely never will be.
The Palestinians also haven't shown much interest in peace. The Israelis have made many generous offers over the years - the Palestinians could've easily negotiated peace and established a state at the Oslo Accords or the Camp David Accords. They declined to do so. When they eventually decide that they do want peace, then 'their land' will be what they negotiate - but until then, they've got they same status as Germans or Japanese in the immediate aftermath of WWII.
Considering Israel's historical and religious ties to the land, and considering that there's been over forty years to sort out peace, they've been incredibly tolerant by not annexing the entire West Bank outright. (Which they've quite plausibly got the right to do - Israel may have signed the Fourth Geneva Convention, but the West Bank wasn't claimed by another sovereign state at the time of its occupation.) European countries aren't nearly as generous when they win wars - which is why Gdańsk is Polish, Bolzano is Italian, Kaliningrad is Russian, and Hungary is a whole lot smaller than it used to be.
Again, I have to question why people want to hold the world's only Jewish state to a standard followed by no other country.
You seem to state that Israel not annexing the West Bank is a desirable thing from the perspective of Palestinian Arabs.
Actually real annexation is desirable. Annexing the West Bank and incorporating its Arab residents into Israel proper (the Jewish settler residents of the West Bank are already considered Israeli) would be a just solution to the issue.
Then everyone would be equal under the law and the Palestinians would have a say over the future. Many of them would like to return to their homes that they left 1948:
I think that either there is a two-state solution or a one-state solution (which can be annexation if you like) is okay. But the dual system of rights where Jewish settlers are privileged and non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs are under military rule is not something a modern Western state should be justifying to itself or others, and it something that people like yourself shouldn't have to wrap themselves in knots trying to "explain".
It's understandable that my comment was inferred as being anti Israel. You can't say anything about Israel without it being inferred as such. However, I was merely pointing out some news that I thought was important; the kind of news that would never be covered by our media.
I like to be informed seeing how recessions and wars can directly and indirectly affect my business. Things are heating up over there and Israel is one to follow.
It's understandable that my comment was inferred as being anti Israel. You can't say anything about Israel without it being inferred as such. However, I was merely pointing out some news that I thought was important; the kind of news that would never be covered by our media.
I like to be informed seeing how recessions and wars can directly and indirectly affect my business. Things are heating up over there and Israel is one to follow.
Israel's rise as a tech hub has quite a few similarities to Silicon Valley's early history. Having good schools and a frontier spirit seem like key ingredients. Perhaps most important is the involvement of military spending in seeding research which leads to new technologies, which in turn spin off from their government-funded roots and form new private companies, which then seed other new companies, venture capitalists move in, more companies are seeded, the cycle continues. Another 50 years and continued military support from the US, and Israel will surely be an excellent complement to the valley.
Ditto for South Africa. There is (or was) an awful lot of home grown military and mining technology from the days of apartheid and sanctions when everything had to be invented locally.
Ironically a lot of the Isreali inventiveness was from the days when they didn't get automatic US military support. If you want to crush a country's R&D drive, simply give them shiny military toys for free.
This article is pretty poor. I had the opportunity to attend a presentation from Professor Shmuel Ellis, from Tel-Aviv University, where he discusses exactly about this, how Israel turned itself into a high-tech hub. In his research, he could trace the growth of this entrepreneurial culture to a few things. Now, I won't remember all of his words and reasoning, but I do remember some of it and my own takeaways from the talk.
First of all, Israel is a country that went through alot of challenges right after it was formed. Its population doubled in less than 5 years (due to imigration), so there were big problems in building the infrastructure to support this tremendous growth in such short timeframe, which required extreme levels of coordination and a wide set of skills to make this possible. This challenging start, with the imigration of very capable and educated people (many of which had a science background), alongside with the Israeli tradition of debating and questioning (which can be seen even inside Israel's army, according the the talker), led to strong learning, generation of ideas and knowledge. This culture with the funding jump-start from the government gave birth to the first few technology companies in the country.
Later on, government support, influx of new, capable and educated work-force (Israeli families value good education and Israel has some of the best education institutions) and the beginning of the first Israeli VC companies (many of which were funded by imigrants from the U.S., where they acquired the expertise by working in this industry) set a very favorable environment to entrepreneurship. But this wasn't just it, Professor Shmuel Ellis then introduces his research in the genealogy of Israel's tech companies, and manages to show how the first technology companies in the country gave origin to hundreds of new start-ups that were formed either by the parent's company founders, its employees or a mix of both. It wasn't just the environment culture that was favorable to being an entrepreneur, but these companies themselves inspired their own employees to also have an entrepreneurial posture and estimulated the creation of new companies. His genealogy graphs are amazing and I fortunately found some of them here (ppt - slide 22 on): http://www.leadership.umn.edu/news/ppt/Droripowerpoint.ppt
"Another example is Boxee. The five Israeli founders decided from the get-go to headquarter the company in Delaware in the United States, but locate the company's research and development office in Tel Aviv."
How many other "Israeli startups" are registered as US businesses and pay tax to the US government, let alone sell-out to US corporations, and funded by non-Israeli sources?
You should do a better research. If there weren't Israeli startups, the country wouldn't show the highest domestic expenditure in R&D as percentage of the GDP[1], nor would it have ranked second only to the United States in invested private-equity capital as a share of GDP[2]. Israel is also the home of the most foreign companies on the NASDAQ index, surpassing Canada[3]. There are over 6,500 companies between high-tech companies, venture capital and private equity funds, investment companies, technological incubators and Service Providers[4].
I see the protests about inequality and the high cost of housing that took place in that boulevard, but I don't see why that's relevant, could you please explain it further?
I get that you might find it to be immoral, maybe, that so many startups are getting funded or getting pretty good exits in the U.S. (after all, that's the best place atm to get exits), while Israeli are having protests about inequality and high cost of housing, but then again, U.S. has a very high number of startups, and yet we are seeing protests everywhere in that country. That still doesn't mean there aren't startups in Israel.
I am actually Brazilian, but still, none of this is relevant. There are startups in Israel, they are getting funded and having exits where they can. You might have a problem that this isn't solving the problems you believe your country have, but this isn't what the discussion is about.
Ashkenazi Jews comprise a significant fraction of the population of Israel, and they are a rather intellectually fecund group. Ashkenazim earned roughly a quarter of Nobel prizes, Fields medals, ACM Turing awards, and over 60% of John Bates Clark medals, and account for roughly a quarter of Ivy League students.
Those figures above come from a population where Ashkenazi Jews comprise 2% of the population. They constitute at least 10x as much of the population proportionally, in Israel. (It's hard to get an exact figure due to admixture between Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews.)
Having an abundance of such people, relative to America, has surely helped. The specific circumstances surrounding Israel and its birth help to channel its brightest people into startups and technology, and less into law, finance and policy, as in America.
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[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 90.0 ms ] threadIsrael is a democracy, China isn't. Israel has free speech, China doesn't.
The two can hardly be compared.
Israel is a democracy for those that it wants in its democracy and it is military rule for those that wants excluded.
You'r contradicting yourself.
Because they'd like to return to their homes one day?
Not doing business with Israelis because you disagree with policies of their government seems nonsensical to me.
http://www.bdsmovement.net/bdsintro
In South Africa, the minority ruled OVER the majority. THAT is the definition of apartheid. In Israel, the Majority rules the minority. Which is the definition of democracy.
Also, there is a reason they are called "Arabs" and not "Israeli", its because they are originally from Arabia, not Israel. They have no roots in Israel.
http://www.whoprofits.org/
If ever, the UN and all of the Western World is the douche - why do they let it go on?
Did you ever ask yourself why the US and Europe got involved with Lybia's violent protests, and still remain completely silent about whatever is going on in Syria and Egypt?
This is hypocrisy at its best (worst?).
But: Israel also has a thriving democracy that subjects its government officials to constant, withering criticism and investigation. We have a court system that isn't afraid to punish government officials. (We just sent a former president to prison for rape, and a former prime minister is being tried for corruption.) We have a free press, with newspapers and blogs that raise every possible political idea you can imagine. We have mass rallies and protests. We allow our citizens to travel abroad wherever they want, whenever they want, and encourage them to speak with people from other countries. We invite people to come from other countries into Israel, and to travel more or less wherever they want, without government supervision.
(And yes, many of these privileges are unavailable to Palestinians. Believe me, many of us in Israel realize this, and both vote and act accordingly.)
I can understand and respect someone who says, "I'll only do business with liberal democracies like those in North America and Western Europe." That's a reasonable and consistent approach to things.
But to single Israel out for attention and boycott, when many countries have worse human-rights records and none of the positive democratic attributes I mentioned above? That seems both unfair, disingenuous, and lacking in perspective.
by and large we know what's wrong with north korea, libya under gaddafi, etc.
we need to pay particular attention to a country that can almost pass as western and still perpetrate atrocious human rights violations, because it's more plausible that we could end up like that.
You know, there's a term for holding Jews to moral standards no other nation on earth is subjected to.
And as far as 'extreme human rights issues' are concerned - in the Palestinian National Authority, the freedom to criticize the government is a sham, journalists are regularly killed by governmental authorities, selling land to Jews is a crime punishable by death, there's regular violence against non-Muslims, honor killings take place regularly and are considered acceptable, homosexuality is illegal, and women have to wear a headscarf to enter a government building. And you're not doing business with Israel?
People like you confound me. I can't tell if you're anti-Semitic or just completely brainwashed and blind to the facts on the ground.
That is wrong, plain and simple.
It doesn't matter what you said is wrong with Arabs, running a two tiered system of rights is very wrong.
Israel occupied the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights after winning the Six-Day War. When Egypt - twelve years and another war later - negotiated a peace treaty with Israel, Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to them, and it once again became Egyptian.
Syria hasn't shown much interest in negotiating peace with Israel, and that's why the Golan Heights are not Syrian at the moment - and the way things are going, likely never will be.
The Palestinians also haven't shown much interest in peace. The Israelis have made many generous offers over the years - the Palestinians could've easily negotiated peace and established a state at the Oslo Accords or the Camp David Accords. They declined to do so. When they eventually decide that they do want peace, then 'their land' will be what they negotiate - but until then, they've got they same status as Germans or Japanese in the immediate aftermath of WWII.
Considering Israel's historical and religious ties to the land, and considering that there's been over forty years to sort out peace, they've been incredibly tolerant by not annexing the entire West Bank outright. (Which they've quite plausibly got the right to do - Israel may have signed the Fourth Geneva Convention, but the West Bank wasn't claimed by another sovereign state at the time of its occupation.) European countries aren't nearly as generous when they win wars - which is why Gdańsk is Polish, Bolzano is Italian, Kaliningrad is Russian, and Hungary is a whole lot smaller than it used to be.
Again, I have to question why people want to hold the world's only Jewish state to a standard followed by no other country.
Actually real annexation is desirable. Annexing the West Bank and incorporating its Arab residents into Israel proper (the Jewish settler residents of the West Bank are already considered Israeli) would be a just solution to the issue.
Then everyone would be equal under the law and the Palestinians would have a say over the future. Many of them would like to return to their homes that they left 1948:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
I think that either there is a two-state solution or a one-state solution (which can be annexation if you like) is okay. But the dual system of rights where Jewish settlers are privileged and non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs are under military rule is not something a modern Western state should be justifying to itself or others, and it something that people like yourself shouldn't have to wrap themselves in knots trying to "explain".
Things are about to get so hot over there. This is very big news. This could be the thing that sets everything off.
I like to be informed seeing how recessions and wars can directly and indirectly affect my business. Things are heating up over there and Israel is one to follow.
I like to be informed seeing how recessions and wars can directly and indirectly affect my business. Things are heating up over there and Israel is one to follow.
I really hope that we can leave the anti-Israel propaganda at Reddit, instead of bringing it to Hacker News.
Ironically a lot of the Isreali inventiveness was from the days when they didn't get automatic US military support. If you want to crush a country's R&D drive, simply give them shiny military toys for free.
First of all, Israel is a country that went through alot of challenges right after it was formed. Its population doubled in less than 5 years (due to imigration), so there were big problems in building the infrastructure to support this tremendous growth in such short timeframe, which required extreme levels of coordination and a wide set of skills to make this possible. This challenging start, with the imigration of very capable and educated people (many of which had a science background), alongside with the Israeli tradition of debating and questioning (which can be seen even inside Israel's army, according the the talker), led to strong learning, generation of ideas and knowledge. This culture with the funding jump-start from the government gave birth to the first few technology companies in the country.
Later on, government support, influx of new, capable and educated work-force (Israeli families value good education and Israel has some of the best education institutions) and the beginning of the first Israeli VC companies (many of which were funded by imigrants from the U.S., where they acquired the expertise by working in this industry) set a very favorable environment to entrepreneurship. But this wasn't just it, Professor Shmuel Ellis then introduces his research in the genealogy of Israel's tech companies, and manages to show how the first technology companies in the country gave origin to hundreds of new start-ups that were formed either by the parent's company founders, its employees or a mix of both. It wasn't just the environment culture that was favorable to being an entrepreneur, but these companies themselves inspired their own employees to also have an entrepreneurial posture and estimulated the creation of new companies. His genealogy graphs are amazing and I fortunately found some of them here (ppt - slide 22 on): http://www.leadership.umn.edu/news/ppt/Droripowerpoint.ppt
Anyway, according to this (http://recanati.tau.ac.il/_Uploads/Personnel/cvellis-March20...) his research on this subject is still in progress, but he already gives alot of insights in his talks.
How many other "Israeli startups" are registered as US businesses and pay tax to the US government, let alone sell-out to US corporations, and funded by non-Israeli sources?
Israeli entrepreneurs? Yes. Israeli startups? hmm.
[1] http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/fulltext/301...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital_in_Israel
[3] http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_3_jewish-capitalism.html
[4] http://www.ivc-online.com/
Did you see the recent protests on Rothschild Boulevard? The article mentions that boulevard 4 times as "Silicon boulevard - the place to watch."
Check out: http://israelsciencetechnology.blogspirit.com (it's down http://web.archive.org/web/20110708020809/http://israelscien...)
See how many acquisitions? To me that's just wrong - even though it may be right for the Rothschilds.
I get that you might find it to be immoral, maybe, that so many startups are getting funded or getting pretty good exits in the U.S. (after all, that's the best place atm to get exits), while Israeli are having protests about inequality and high cost of housing, but then again, U.S. has a very high number of startups, and yet we are seeing protests everywhere in that country. That still doesn't mean there aren't startups in Israel.
Those figures above come from a population where Ashkenazi Jews comprise 2% of the population. They constitute at least 10x as much of the population proportionally, in Israel. (It's hard to get an exact figure due to admixture between Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews.)
Having an abundance of such people, relative to America, has surely helped. The specific circumstances surrounding Israel and its birth help to channel its brightest people into startups and technology, and less into law, finance and policy, as in America.