Personally I feel that this is a step in the right direction, albeit at the cost of some user pain in the short term. Prepaid SIMs are already manufactured, packaged, and shipped to convenience stores, so why not a Prepaid eSIM QR code? I imagine that it'd be cheaper to print a simple QR code for an entire factory run than to have SIM cards manufactured with unique data on them, and the savings can be spent upgrading the infrastructure to support eSIM (a one-time process).
> Prepaid SIMs are already manufactured, packaged, and shipped to convenience stores, so why not a Prepaid eSIM QR code?
Unlike regular SIM cards, the eSIM QR code doesn't actually contain your subscriber information. Everyone who uses the carrier gets the same code. This can make the process of signing up for a new carrier more complex, as you need to tell them your phone's IMEI number before you attempt to use the SIM. (This also makes switching devices harder; you can't just pop the SIM out and use it in a different phone.)
So a post-eSIM prepaid carrier would probably end up selling something like iTunes gift cards, with a code you have to scratch off and type into a website. Or they'd just sell exclusively online.
> Everyone who uses the carrier gets the same code.
I don't think that this is always the case:
For my eSIM at T-Mobile US it was as you described: The QR code appeared to be a general QR code and T-Mobile seems to have recognized my phone based on the IMEI that I configured previously. But for my eSIM at another European carrier that I'm using each QR code appears to be different and at no point in the process the website asks about an IMEI.
The author seems to be unaware of the large market for travel data esims. Airalo and Ubigi are two examples of user-facing resellers of these, which make buying a physical prepaid sim near obsolete.
I would say that for travel, esim is much better than sim. Given that seamless data roaming is one of the main features of Google Fi, this opinion is not uncommon.
Travel SIMs are great but so are options. One issue with outfits like Airalo is they often give you an eSIM from a random third country carrier that happens to have a cheap roaming agreement in the country you are in, resulting in your data being routed around the world and 300ms+ pings.
Eh, although the travel data eSIMs are better than travel data SIMs, it still doesn't beat local SIMs.
For example, anytime I go back to Romania I pick up a ~6EUR prepaid Orange SIM card which has 2000 minutes, unlimited texts, and 6GB data with a bonus 120GB data on activation.
I have found that having a local number when I go to a new place is a big convenience. Doing things like ordering takeaway food online or trying to contact a hotel or some other service is a lot easier when not having to deal with an international call.
Most of the travel eSIMs don't provide a local number (esim.net is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) but getting a SIM at a corner store after getting out of the airport always does.
Orange is a huge company that supports eSIMs already in their major markets. I'm not exactly sure about Romania, but this page does exist which leads me to believe they do support it. https://www.orange.ro/servicii/esim/
It's not a large market. I've used them myself on iPad when I travel (as they don't do voice or SMS, just data). Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Pain to move them to other devices or to recharge sometimes. Many are dirt slow as they're basically foreign carrier roaming SIMs rather than native local SIMs.
It works but I certainly wouldn't want it to be my only choice when abroad.
I'm not sure I understand your position. eSIM has been present in iPhones since the XS model. You were free to use it over a physical sim wherever supported. What's happening with iPhone 14 is they are upselling eSIM while reducing flexibility by eliminating the physical sim option. It's a feature reduction, not a feature addition. eSIM was there either way.
There are countries either not available through Airalo et al or their offering is simply not price competitive with local SIMs (and in some cases even roaming prices with home carriers). I went to New Caledonia recently and looked into a vast range of eSIM options. Most could not offer access in New Caledonia at all (as the local telco seem to be very selective to whom they have roaming agreements with) and the few that did (IRRC) was priced in such a way that buying a local SIM was significantly cheaper. I did a quick look at pricing for other countries where they did offer service and I must say I was not that impressed with the prices compared to what I get via local SIMs and in some cases roaming agreements through my home carrier was cheaper. YMMV especially when it comes to smaller countries and destinations not usually frequented by tourists.
The markets where physical SIM swapping is most entrenched are exactly the markers where iPhones are minority products, i.e. the places that Apple has most potential for growth. Is the SIM tray really so important that that Apple is going to sacrifice those markets? I doubt it. So if Apple is tied to physical SIM for the foreseeable future, why bother trying to kill it? Feels like a butterfly keyboard moment.
>And the fact that the market quietly moved on from headphone ports, SD cards etc. shows that it was the right call.
I doubt this. I think the market moved that way because it is more profitable to upsell users to wireless headphones or cloud storage or greater internal storage. Remember, apple releases airpods as they removed headphone jack? It does not necessarily represent an increase in utility on the customer side.
Yea. It's really put a dent in Apple's sales. Why do you think you are Apple's primary customer type? They want a solid phone with secure OS and App Store, no wires and they already have a dozen USB charging bricks.
BTW The iPhone 14 Pro is actually thicker than the 13 - you know because they needed to put in a better camera and larger battery. And your snide comment is somehow implying that Android is more useful and intuitive? Hahah.
Android would more useful and intuitive because it has an actual file-system, and the android phones generally come with replaceable storage. This has been my personal experience using an iphone myself and helping my family with their iphones. I think apple purposefully increases camera resolution, prevents upgradable storage, and charges much more for increased storage, all in an effort to upsell users to their "iCloud" network storage service.
My experience with the iOS store is that it is mostly crap. I go to look for a pdf editor, the first three options that come up are a "free download" trying to get me to to sign up for an overpriced subscription service to use the app. The Android store is also garbage, but there is at least f-droid which is good.
The idea that iOS is somehow made more secure through the locked-down App Store and firmware is a prototypical case of security-by-obscurity. It has been trivial for law enforcement and other motivated groups to bypass iOS security measures. Operational Security is not some collection of marketable "features" or "solutions" that can be bought, it is a holistic mindset towards reducing risk and severity of cyber-attack. When you outsource the security of the device to a single all-powerful company, that is not good opsec. The find-my-iphone network is an example of this: is is an inescapable global surveillance network. to me, this reflects poorly on apple's security and privacy practices. The apple "ecosystem" is designed in a way to encourage the use of proprietary software such that apple can extract a fraction of sales revenue through their store.
Apple is a very profitable company because they are good at inventing new reasons to charge their customers more. I don't think the price of the product reflects its underlying usefulness, intuitiveness or security.
That being said, most android OEMs do ship a quite bloated, non-standard verison of android- this is analogous to PC OEMs that will install bloatware on any windows laptop they sell. This reflects quite poorly on the android ecosystem: the OEMs like samsung that most associate with "high-quality" smartphones are paradoxically the crappiest OEMs when it comes to software.
I disagree with this. Most non-tech people don’t know or care about file systems. As long as they have the sharing options they need and find them easier to use, they’re satisfied. FWIW, iOS/iPadOS has a Files app that exposes part of the file system.
You mean when you search in the Play Store you always get highly relevant applications. Come one. The Play Store is a mess which you noted. Your attempt to discount the App Store is just you being ignorant and ill informed.
It is not trivial to bypass iOS security. People may be inattentive to best practices but nobody is going to crack a new iPhone with USB security and a long password.
Find My is opt in. Don't use it if you don't wish.
Sure iOS software is proprietary but Android software is what? That nonsense tells me you have noting to contribute.
They need to ban this shit. I need to be able to pickup a $30 flip phone and get it working with my sim. Honestly, Apple has added a lot if features I dislike and since I pretty much gave up on mobile privacy/security I have been preferring them because of nice ux/hardware but this is too much for me.
5G and wifi can track my movements through walls, "find my device" will use a satellite to pin me down if my account is pwned, businesses and employers are requiring these tracking devices. This shit is too messed up.
I am gonna be moving to laptops and flip phones completely (except now esim threatens them as well). Please let me know if there are non-profits that lobby and promote liberty and privacy preserving tech. That aside I will write lawmakers I guess what other way is there to enact laws that tell apple and pals to fuck off with that shit?
Sure, phones have been moving in a terrible direction in terms of privacy, but I don't really see what the difference here is with eSim. Your modem can communicate with cell towers regardless of whether it has a SIM connected.
It means i can't switch to a more private phone easily. For example I sometimes move my sim to a flip phone with only 4g now I won't be able to do that without contacting the carrier and jumping through hoops. They are enforcing sims as a permanent thing so it is more inconvenient for consumers and more costly for smaller device makers.
I'm constantly chuckling at the underestimation of Apple's influence in the US and worldwide. Do you really think all of the cellular providers and resellers are not at this moment reviewing their business model and giving strong consideration to supporting eSIM activation?
The folio of "stupid" ideas that people claim Apple adopted which are now readily adopted by many Android phone purveyors is substantial.
No one spends more money on all consumer products domestically and internationally than Apple users especially folks with a new phone.
We shall see how many "cheap" SIM purveyors suddenly figure out a way to go eSIM. In the meantime I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) and one less opening for dust and moisture to get inside.
I can't wait to send my first Satellite message...
IT has nothing to do with carriers supporting eSIM or not. With eSIM comes activation processes where carriers can make pricing decisions. Have an iPhone or coming from the US? There's a different higher price for you. Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. Fair pricing. eSIM opens the floodgates for carriers to lock you in or implement stupid rules. I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Also eSIM being less hackable than the SIM? Time will tell. Im sure the NSO Group is already working on that.
> Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle.
The exact same is possible is with an e-sim. Have you ever used an e-sim? It's literally a QR code the carrier hands you that you need to scan. You can scan it with any e-sim compatible phone. This is the equivalent of "inserting the sim into any phone" except without the actual insertion.
> I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM.
Assuming you are a new iPhone user? ATT locked the sim down for iphones in the first few years. Not sure how it is now, but earlier I couldnt use my phone with any other carrier unless I begged ATT to unlock it. I once had to show them my travel documents to say that I just needed it for a short while so I can use a foreign sim on what they considered their phone. So this is nothing new, and e-sim doesnt improve or worsen the situation.
All this is possible with standard SIMs. The SIM is just a trust anchor, a token. What that token means for the telco in terms of services and pricing is entirely up to the telco. eSIM is just a way to connect to the HSM that is already soldered on the phone at manufacture. The only problem is that if you damage your phone you have to bootstrap a new “onboarding” and cannot just extract the SIM and put it in a new phone.
> I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM.
I already have to deal with this bullshit. ATT has a device whitelist that they refuse to deviate from - you cannot just put a SIM into any device you want.
ATT also will not give you a physical eSIM (they deliver their eSIMs on cardboard cards as QR codes printed; I have not been able to remotely provision one, they charge for these, and stores run out frequently)
> I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) and one less opening for dust and moisture to get inside.
There was so much esim fraud in Austria via customer support attacks and the online self management interfaces that they removed the ability to get an esim QR online. Some carriers are bringing it back but jusr yesterday A1 (the largest carrier) had to admit that customers got their esim stolen through attacks of their processes.
In Japan, eSIMs are exclusive to Japanese citizen and permanent residents. Not sure about the reason behind this but I don't think they're going to change policies just because Apple is pushing.
You mean yo can't wait to be stranded in a remote place, severely injured and having to maybe get help by pointing your phone to the right place in the sky? That's the oddest FOMO I've ever seen.
It’s unclear what you mean by eSIM and SMS being more secure. It’s not, as other commenters noted.
Also, the international SIM card thing is still an issue. It could take 2-4 years for carriers to pick up, and the buyer needs to beware and it’s silly for Apple to not provide the workaround. I won’t opt for an iPhone 14 as this is exactly my use-case
Also the Satellite messages is for emergencies. Are you planning to be in an emergency or just abusing the service?
I’ve been using Airalo for a couple years now to get cheap data during international travel. I’m sure there are cheaper local/physical store options, but the ease of getting access to local cellular network with a couple of clicks cannot be understated. Airalo supports 190+ countries via esims, it’s amazing
I see a lot of concern here and elsewhere about getting local pre-paid SIMs when traveling. Wouldn't widespread eSIM support be a boon for those carriers? As I understand it all they need is a thin app and a sign-up process. It's not a high barrier to entry and most pre-paid markets are very competitive, so I think there soon will be many choices. (The iPhone won't be the last to drop the physical SIM port.) The real losers will be the corner stores.
It already exists. There is both Truphone and Airalo that I’ve used and actually quite liked. Much easier than finding a store to buy a sim. You can literally just activate it at the airport with WiFi. Also how I tested a domestic carrier before switching over, I didn’t have to order a sim and wait 10 days.
A physical SIM requires no data connection to use.
You can collect it from a vending machine, put it in your device and it works immediately.
Carriers often don't let people outside of the country sign up for service - even prepaid.
Perhaps in the long run we'll see consumer-friendly options, but so far, carriers all over the world have shown how anti-consumer eSIM can be. They have many new found opportunities to restrict competition, consumer choice, and make additional profit from unfair charges.
Nope. If you want to convert a SIM card (micro, nano or whatever size, they're all the same thing just differently cut plastic part) to eSIM you're SOL. Unless maybe if you have a very ancient SIM card that you've refused to upgrade (but then you're probably without LTE).
The reverse might be theoretically possible during activation (if you feed the QR code to your own custom device and your software implementation doesn't guard the keys, letting you copy those freely), but I suspect there is some form of attestation so it won't let you activate with anything but "trusted" devices (by network, not yourself). And if eSIM is already activated on a phone, you most likely won't be able to extract the keys, because those are most likely protected with some sort of secure element.
> The reverse might be theoretically possible during activation (if you feed the QR code to your own custom device and your software implementation doesn't guard the keys, letting you copy those freely), but I suspect there is some form of attestation so it won't let you activate with anything but "trusted" devices (by network, not yourself).
There are programmable SIM cards available that allow you to install an eSIM from a QR code. Those SIM cards can then be used in any phone that doesn't officially support eSIMs: https://esim.me/
> Since then, all iPhone models launched since then have eSIM support.
Slight nitpick: Except those in Greater China which ship with dual nano-SIM slots and have no support for eSIM (even on iPhone 14).
iPhone 14 shipped in the rest of the world have 1 physical SIM slot and support for either physical + eSIM or two eSIMs.
I don't know engineering wise why China model phones can't ship with both dual physical slots and support any combo of two physical/eSIM. There doesn't appear to be any obvious technical limitation.
> I don't know engineering wise why China model phones can't ship with both dual physical slots and support any combo of two physical/eSIM. There doesn't appear to be any obvious technical limitation.
As far as I know Chinese carriers don't support eSIMs for smartphones yet. I'm not sure if Apple would have been able to legally ship eSIM support in China, but even if they would be able to do that it would be an additional cost for a feature that nearly none of their customers there would use.
This is an extremely short-sighted move by Apple with no upside to the customer:
- Traveling abroad will be a hassle: Multiple countries (and especially smaller carriers) *do not* offer eSIM functionality (and/or it is more cumbersome to get than advertized). Planning a trip to a developing country? You're in for a surprisedpikachu face when your expensive device $800-1000 can't use basic phone functionality compared to a basic $100 phone. Step outside the international airport in Cambodia (like I did just a few days back) and ask for eSIM - and you're going to get stares. Physical SIM is the way to go in developing and under-developed countries.
- "But I can just use an app!" argument does not work: Sure you can. There are apps like Airalo and others but - they're often targeted around offering data only and are often more expensive than buying a local physical SIM.
- Moving abroad with new iPhone will be a challenge: Good chunk of regular business travelers or expats living in developing countries. I actually know a girl who moved to India for a couple months' project and was trying to set up eSIM with a carrier in India for days. Physical SIM took 5 minutes to swap!
It is very naive to think it will stay this way. Now that Apple made this move, cell providers in any country will be forced to provide e-sims to stay in business. Apple has such a huge influence it won't take years but months even if it only targets us smartphones.
Other phone manufacturers will follow this decision sooner than later.
At least from the Indian experience, I’d wager that tons of iPhones from the US find their way into other countries because it’s way cheaper to get it from there than pay local prices that may include higher customs duties, higher (than US) taxes, etc. It’s possible that a lot of iPhones in Cambodia are/were originally sold in the US.
That's a very North-American-centric view.
You're overestimating influence of iPhone customers on telecom providers - especially in developing countries where they're often <5% of the users.
In developing countries I'm not sure, but the introduction of eSIM on iPhones is why I can get one in an increasing number of European countries, and it makes travel soooo much easier (and cheaper).
I think especially in developing countries e-sims will be huge. They save cost in the end for phone manufacturers and cell providers. It won't take long until low end android phones will have e-sim only options aswell.
Maybe u are right and I am overestimating the influence of apple. Only time can tell.
How large of a market share do you think "immigrants from the US who recently immigrated but still use the iPhone 14 they bought in their origin country" makes up? My bet is that it's quite small in a whole lot of places. Will cell providers really scramble to appease them?
I don’t know what kind of problems the person you’re referring to faced in setting up an eSIM in India, but I wanted to point out that eSIM has been available in India for at least four years or so, with the three major carriers (airtel, Jio and Vi) offering it for postpaid connections. For prepaid, only airtel and Jio offer it. Vi doesn’t offer eSIM so far for prepaid. Perhaps the new iPhones that people in India get from the US (because it’s a lot cheaper) will change that.
Apple is also quite stubborn in most of its decisions. So it will be up to the carriers around the world to support eSIM and improve the experience. If I were to guess, I’d say there won’t be physical SIM slots in all iPhones from 2023 (iPhone 15*) unless legally mandated in certain countries. Apple does not like ports and holes on its smartphones and smartwatches, and it will continue eliminating them at its pace.
If you call Airtel to get eSIM OTP or whatever, the answering machine warns in 2-3 languages that "Airtel does not support eSIM".
You'll need to have KYC done anyhow but you can't realistically rely on local vendors to help you with that either. Physical SIM takes 5-10 minutes at best.
We're talking about one of the largest telecom providers in the second most populated nation on Earth. Most populated country - China - equally does not have adequate eSIM offering either. So you've two nations already with combined 3 Billion+ people who don't have robust eSIM offering.
And God forbid if you actually decide to go to some parts of the world (as in Africa), where eSIM is just not supported.
Many that do offer eSIM have stringent process, or aren't cheap/no option to call (if you decide to use Airalo and other such apps).
So much for a "mobile" phone, especially in our post-Covid world with rising number of digital nomads and people who move countries.
There's no upside to customers in this and this isn't about "courage" this time.
One implication not considered with eSIM is that not the SIM is indeed virtual. if something happens to the device... you need to do much more to get yourself up and running.
An example, my wife dropped her phone and her screen is now completely broken. phone unusable. When the phone has a physical SIM, I can simply take out the SIM and put it in a backup/older phone.
With eSIM only, I need to:
contact the carrier or have an additional phone with additional "backup" sim.
Same happened to my sons phone, but it has an esim. I pulled out the original sim paper, scanned the QR code, entered the confirmation and SIM pin. Bam, it was transferred instantly to the new phone. It was easier than a traditional sim, simply because I didn’t have to create or find a tool to open the sim tray.
You can also go online to do it in like three clicks, but you have to verify stuff to get the QR code. And don’t you keep the original paper the physical sim comes on for the PUK?
QR codes can be one-time-use only though; it depends on the carrier. They can also be revoked (sometimes by accident - maybe their "reusability" was an oversight to begin with that's now been corrected) which you will only realize when it's too late.
Some carriers (for example, all the major carriers in the U.S., Telekom in Germany, and Vodafone in Australia) have eSIM "Quick Transfer", which requires no contact with the carrier at all:
Will the phone only have one esim? Currently I use both the esim AND the physical sim of my phone. Very convenient and therefore a feature that is very dear to me.
Edit: seems the phone can support up to 8 esims :-)
My problem with eSIM only is as a private network architect (working with open source LTE EPC stuff, for instance), I don't know exactly where the hell I can go to get an eSIM cut for our test networks.
I can't figure out what eSIM personalization/etc providers will even take on such a small use case like myself where I just need to have an eSIM provisioned and get my authentication values to throw into the core network.
This is going to screw over a lot of private LTE deployments on CBRS if there's no good way to cut eSIMs for this use.
The fear (for me) is that this make a blow for pre-paid.
I have never get a plan in all this years, and wanna stay like that. But this stuff make even more easy(?) to force to get into one (the amount of SPAM I get for my carrier to please pay monthly is amazing, and with this stuff I worry if will be easier to get trapped).
P.D: I reluctantly use cellphone, mostly for development (I made mobile apps), and rarely if ever move out.
Android here ... Was in Europe recently and was gonna esim my way into connectivity there. Then realized no support. My next Android phone better have esim. Instead I had to buy sims over a taxi ride to store and back and back by having the taxi wait outside cause I could not phone for a new one in the small chance I couldn't get the new sim to work.
Ugh. I'm not planning on updating this cycle, but eSIM + physical SIM was best of both worlds for me, as a US user who travels internationally. Carriers in my most common European destination do not offer eSIM or restrict it solely to long-term monthly accounts... whereas I could pick up a rolling month-to-month SIM card with a great local plan super easily before.
Sure, maybe by the time I upgrade next more carriers will be offering it. But it's definitely a current downside and one which I expect will be exploited for market segmentation in future.
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[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 153 ms ] threadUnlike regular SIM cards, the eSIM QR code doesn't actually contain your subscriber information. Everyone who uses the carrier gets the same code. This can make the process of signing up for a new carrier more complex, as you need to tell them your phone's IMEI number before you attempt to use the SIM. (This also makes switching devices harder; you can't just pop the SIM out and use it in a different phone.)
So a post-eSIM prepaid carrier would probably end up selling something like iTunes gift cards, with a code you have to scratch off and type into a website. Or they'd just sell exclusively online.
I don't think that this is always the case:
For my eSIM at T-Mobile US it was as you described: The QR code appeared to be a general QR code and T-Mobile seems to have recognized my phone based on the IMEI that I configured previously. But for my eSIM at another European carrier that I'm using each QR code appears to be different and at no point in the process the website asks about an IMEI.
I would say that for travel, esim is much better than sim. Given that seamless data roaming is one of the main features of Google Fi, this opinion is not uncommon.
For example, anytime I go back to Romania I pick up a ~6EUR prepaid Orange SIM card which has 2000 minutes, unlimited texts, and 6GB data with a bonus 120GB data on activation.
According to https://esimdb.com/romania, that same 6EUR offers 1GB of data.
Is it more convenient? Sure, a bit. But it's nowhere near as cheap for most local SIMs.
Most of the travel eSIMs don't provide a local number (esim.net is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) but getting a SIM at a corner store after getting out of the airport always does.
It's available only on postpaid/contract (abonament) services.
It works but I certainly wouldn't want it to be my only choice when abroad.
imagine they made the most useful, intuitive, and beautiful device instead of just the thinnest one?
Having features like headphone port and SD cards means you don't have space for other ones that are potentially more useful or popular.
And the fact that the market quietly moved on from headphone ports, SD cards etc. shows that it was the right call.
Physical SIM cards will unquestionably be the next to go.
I doubt this. I think the market moved that way because it is more profitable to upsell users to wireless headphones or cloud storage or greater internal storage. Remember, apple releases airpods as they removed headphone jack? It does not necessarily represent an increase in utility on the customer side.
BTW The iPhone 14 Pro is actually thicker than the 13 - you know because they needed to put in a better camera and larger battery. And your snide comment is somehow implying that Android is more useful and intuitive? Hahah.
My experience with the iOS store is that it is mostly crap. I go to look for a pdf editor, the first three options that come up are a "free download" trying to get me to to sign up for an overpriced subscription service to use the app. The Android store is also garbage, but there is at least f-droid which is good.
The idea that iOS is somehow made more secure through the locked-down App Store and firmware is a prototypical case of security-by-obscurity. It has been trivial for law enforcement and other motivated groups to bypass iOS security measures. Operational Security is not some collection of marketable "features" or "solutions" that can be bought, it is a holistic mindset towards reducing risk and severity of cyber-attack. When you outsource the security of the device to a single all-powerful company, that is not good opsec. The find-my-iphone network is an example of this: is is an inescapable global surveillance network. to me, this reflects poorly on apple's security and privacy practices. The apple "ecosystem" is designed in a way to encourage the use of proprietary software such that apple can extract a fraction of sales revenue through their store.
Apple is a very profitable company because they are good at inventing new reasons to charge their customers more. I don't think the price of the product reflects its underlying usefulness, intuitiveness or security.
That being said, most android OEMs do ship a quite bloated, non-standard verison of android- this is analogous to PC OEMs that will install bloatware on any windows laptop they sell. This reflects quite poorly on the android ecosystem: the OEMs like samsung that most associate with "high-quality" smartphones are paradoxically the crappiest OEMs when it comes to software.
I disagree with this. Most non-tech people don’t know or care about file systems. As long as they have the sharing options they need and find them easier to use, they’re satisfied. FWIW, iOS/iPadOS has a Files app that exposes part of the file system.
It is not trivial to bypass iOS security. People may be inattentive to best practices but nobody is going to crack a new iPhone with USB security and a long password.
Find My is opt in. Don't use it if you don't wish.
Sure iOS software is proprietary but Android software is what? That nonsense tells me you have noting to contribute.
5G and wifi can track my movements through walls, "find my device" will use a satellite to pin me down if my account is pwned, businesses and employers are requiring these tracking devices. This shit is too messed up.
I am gonna be moving to laptops and flip phones completely (except now esim threatens them as well). Please let me know if there are non-profits that lobby and promote liberty and privacy preserving tech. That aside I will write lawmakers I guess what other way is there to enact laws that tell apple and pals to fuck off with that shit?
The folio of "stupid" ideas that people claim Apple adopted which are now readily adopted by many Android phone purveyors is substantial.
No one spends more money on all consumer products domestically and internationally than Apple users especially folks with a new phone.
We shall see how many "cheap" SIM purveyors suddenly figure out a way to go eSIM. In the meantime I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) and one less opening for dust and moisture to get inside.
I can't wait to send my first Satellite message...
The exact same is possible is with an e-sim. Have you ever used an e-sim? It's literally a QR code the carrier hands you that you need to scan. You can scan it with any e-sim compatible phone. This is the equivalent of "inserting the sim into any phone" except without the actual insertion.
> I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM.
Assuming you are a new iPhone user? ATT locked the sim down for iphones in the first few years. Not sure how it is now, but earlier I couldnt use my phone with any other carrier unless I begged ATT to unlock it. I once had to show them my travel documents to say that I just needed it for a short while so I can use a foreign sim on what they considered their phone. So this is nothing new, and e-sim doesnt improve or worsen the situation.
Apple is not taking us from a physical SIM to an eSIM world.
Apple is taking us from a physical SIM + eSIM to an only eSIM world.
All the arguments in this thread so far in favor of Apple’s decision fail when considering this reality.
I already have to deal with this bullshit. ATT has a device whitelist that they refuse to deviate from - you cannot just put a SIM into any device you want.
ATT also will not give you a physical eSIM (they deliver their eSIMs on cardboard cards as QR codes printed; I have not been able to remotely provision one, they charge for these, and stores run out frequently)
doubtful. insecurity of sms has always been on carrier side. this does not solve fundamental problem.
There was so much esim fraud in Austria via customer support attacks and the online self management interfaces that they removed the ability to get an esim QR online. Some carriers are bringing it back but jusr yesterday A1 (the largest carrier) had to admit that customers got their esim stolen through attacks of their processes.
You mean yo can't wait to be stranded in a remote place, severely injured and having to maybe get help by pointing your phone to the right place in the sky? That's the oddest FOMO I've ever seen.
Sounds like you don't understand how eSIM and/or SMS works.
Also, the international SIM card thing is still an issue. It could take 2-4 years for carriers to pick up, and the buyer needs to beware and it’s silly for Apple to not provide the workaround. I won’t opt for an iPhone 14 as this is exactly my use-case
Also the Satellite messages is for emergencies. Are you planning to be in an emergency or just abusing the service?
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Yep. Apple is silly. You'll make note of this claim chowder for us won't you?
And right in the keynote was the comment "And for more casual uses also". Why don't you watch it before you comment?
Most people are targeted by online-only attacks which social-engineer the carrier into doing a SIM swap - this would happen just as well with eSIM.
This is a non-issue.
A physical SIM requires no data connection to use.
You can collect it from a vending machine, put it in your device and it works immediately.
Carriers often don't let people outside of the country sign up for service - even prepaid.
Perhaps in the long run we'll see consumer-friendly options, but so far, carriers all over the world have shown how anti-consumer eSIM can be. They have many new found opportunities to restrict competition, consumer choice, and make additional profit from unfair charges.
The reverse might be theoretically possible during activation (if you feed the QR code to your own custom device and your software implementation doesn't guard the keys, letting you copy those freely), but I suspect there is some form of attestation so it won't let you activate with anything but "trusted" devices (by network, not yourself). And if eSIM is already activated on a phone, you most likely won't be able to extract the keys, because those are most likely protected with some sort of secure element.
There are programmable SIM cards available that allow you to install an eSIM from a QR code. Those SIM cards can then be used in any phone that doesn't officially support eSIMs: https://esim.me/
Slight nitpick: Except those in Greater China which ship with dual nano-SIM slots and have no support for eSIM (even on iPhone 14).
iPhone 14 shipped in the rest of the world have 1 physical SIM slot and support for either physical + eSIM or two eSIMs.
I don't know engineering wise why China model phones can't ship with both dual physical slots and support any combo of two physical/eSIM. There doesn't appear to be any obvious technical limitation.
As far as I know Chinese carriers don't support eSIMs for smartphones yet. I'm not sure if Apple would have been able to legally ship eSIM support in China, but even if they would be able to do that it would be an additional cost for a feature that nearly none of their customers there would use.
Hong Kong
1O1O
3
csl
China Mobile Hong Kong
SmarTone
---
Taiwan
APT
Chunghwa Telecom
Far EasTone
Taiwan Mobile
Taiwan Star
Truphone
---
Macao
CTM
That being said I still need a SIM card slot because I visit countries with no eSIM carriers.
- Traveling abroad will be a hassle: Multiple countries (and especially smaller carriers) *do not* offer eSIM functionality (and/or it is more cumbersome to get than advertized). Planning a trip to a developing country? You're in for a surprisedpikachu face when your expensive device $800-1000 can't use basic phone functionality compared to a basic $100 phone. Step outside the international airport in Cambodia (like I did just a few days back) and ask for eSIM - and you're going to get stares. Physical SIM is the way to go in developing and under-developed countries.
- "But I can just use an app!" argument does not work: Sure you can. There are apps like Airalo and others but - they're often targeted around offering data only and are often more expensive than buying a local physical SIM.
- Moving abroad with new iPhone will be a challenge: Good chunk of regular business travelers or expats living in developing countries. I actually know a girl who moved to India for a couple months' project and was trying to set up eSIM with a carrier in India for days. Physical SIM took 5 minutes to swap!
Other phone manufacturers will follow this decision sooner than later.
[0]https://www.statista.com/statistics/930856/cambodia-mobile-o...
Everyone back then had third-hand used stuff that I suspect was mostly ex-eWaste. Smartphones were not ubiquitous.
I see the graph but don't believe it, especially given how much of their economy is tourism.
Maybe u are right and I am overestimating the influence of apple. Only time can tell.
Apple is also quite stubborn in most of its decisions. So it will be up to the carriers around the world to support eSIM and improve the experience. If I were to guess, I’d say there won’t be physical SIM slots in all iPhones from 2023 (iPhone 15*) unless legally mandated in certain countries. Apple does not like ports and holes on its smartphones and smartwatches, and it will continue eliminating them at its pace.
You'll need to have KYC done anyhow but you can't realistically rely on local vendors to help you with that either. Physical SIM takes 5-10 minutes at best.
We're talking about one of the largest telecom providers in the second most populated nation on Earth. Most populated country - China - equally does not have adequate eSIM offering either. So you've two nations already with combined 3 Billion+ people who don't have robust eSIM offering.
And God forbid if you actually decide to go to some parts of the world (as in Africa), where eSIM is just not supported. Many that do offer eSIM have stringent process, or aren't cheap/no option to call (if you decide to use Airalo and other such apps).
So much for a "mobile" phone, especially in our post-Covid world with rising number of digital nomads and people who move countries. There's no upside to customers in this and this isn't about "courage" this time.
An example, my wife dropped her phone and her screen is now completely broken. phone unusable. When the phone has a physical SIM, I can simply take out the SIM and put it in a backup/older phone.
With eSIM only, I need to:
contact the carrier or have an additional phone with additional "backup" sim.
https://www.t-mobile.com/support/tutorials/device/apple/ipho...
It's just a series of steps that you do on both phones, not that different than transferring a physical SIM.
Edit: seems the phone can support up to 8 esims :-)
I can't figure out what eSIM personalization/etc providers will even take on such a small use case like myself where I just need to have an eSIM provisioned and get my authentication values to throw into the core network.
This is going to screw over a lot of private LTE deployments on CBRS if there's no good way to cut eSIMs for this use.
I have never get a plan in all this years, and wanna stay like that. But this stuff make even more easy(?) to force to get into one (the amount of SPAM I get for my carrier to please pay monthly is amazing, and with this stuff I worry if will be easier to get trapped).
P.D: I reluctantly use cellphone, mostly for development (I made mobile apps), and rarely if ever move out.
Sure, maybe by the time I upgrade next more carriers will be offering it. But it's definitely a current downside and one which I expect will be exploited for market segmentation in future.