Ask HN: How did you find joy in life?
I can't find joy in life. Nothing interesting. When I think rationally I am excepting myself as whom I'm. Yes, for example, friends talk to me passionately about something (music, events, chess, etc..). I'm just like, "yeah, interesting". I never feel excited about anything deeply. I admire people like Feynman who are passionate and curious about science, life, to learn. I want to feel like them but nothing triggers that type of feeling. In the end, I'm just passing my days. Naval says in his book something like " we will be forgotten 100000 years from now. There is no meaning". this is not the case for me. I don't want to be remembered or make something useful for people, for the world. I just want to be curious, and passionate like Zorba (Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis), like Feynman. Without curiosity, man is nothing. If you had experienced this type of thing, how did you handle it?
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[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 155 ms ] threadOnce I wondered if my interest levels are affected by how well I'm sleeping. That got me interested in the physical things that affect your mood -- and how serious exercise could flood your brain with generally-uplifting biochemicals. (Though it can also bring you down if you don't also eat enough protein and carbohydrates to fully rejuvenate.)
The last piece of the puzzle is mental -- some people try meditation, but even listening to extremely calming music can have an impact. People have tried "gratefulness" lists or a conscientious positivity practice. Someone once advised me to just do something nice for someone else, and then savor that feeling of having been helpful. (More or less that feeling you get when you see a tiny kitten or a cute animal in the zoo -- and you spontaneously start wishing them well.)
The other thing that causes low-curiosity is burnout. (Just getting out of the house, taking a trip, seeing some people can sometimes help.) Working less, changing fields to a different challenge. Changing cities, changing countries....
YMMV. Worked for me.
1. anti-depressants
2. therapy / exercise / diet changes
3. a perspective change
4. ignoring it
"Another proposed mechanism of action is that the seizures induced by ECT cause a profound change in sleep architecture (a reversible inhibition of REM sleep); it is this change in the state of the organism that drives the therapeutic effects of ECT and not any simple change in the release of neurotransmitters, neurotrophic factors and/or hormones."
So a small percentage of patients not relapsing after one sleep deprivation would actually make it the best available cure with reduced risks compared to ECT.
Other treatments possibly aren't curative and have not as serious side effects as ECT, more similar to sleep deprivation.
I'm not really interested in giving anyone medical advice, etc, based on my selective reading of pubmed, I just think it is important to list treatment options neutrally and with more consideration of what self treatment patients are probably very effectively applying if managed medical treatment is supposed to have a safer and better outcome.
In any case, those 4 things you've mentioned are well enough already.
- Optimizing the microbiome. There’s tons of studies around various strains and methodologies etc. You could benefit from just eating no sugar and more fiber, or you could be in need of a fecal matter transplant. Unfortunately the microbiome and its effects on health is still not that well understood.
- Light therapy, or photobiomodulation with near-infrared light has some promising studies. I’ve personally used it to great effect.
- Magnesium supplementation has been shown to work in some treatment-resistant cases (obviously only works if you’re deficient). Mg is quickly eliminated via kidneys, so lower doses spread over the day might work better.
- Check Glycine levels (or just try a supplement, it’s cheap). Low levels are linked to depression. It also improves sleep usually, a nice side effect.
- Anything that lowers inflammation in the brain could work well in treatment resistant depression.
I was sitting on a small hill in the grass and was feeling depressed like the weeks and months before that. I figured, a little bit of dirt couldn't hurt. I licked my finger, stuck it in the sand, and ate it.
This is of course anecdotally, but I'm certain it helped me.
It may not be a dead cert cure for depression but all of the above has accumulative effects over time and it is more difficult to feel bad mentally when you are feeling really good physically.
This is not necessarily good advice, overtraining is a thing and actually causes depressed mood. Check heart rate variability to make sure you are rested enough to exercise.
People with depression should really try to keep inflammation low, and preventing overtraining is an important part of that.
Everyone should get regular exercise. Worry about overtraining after you’ve started training at all.
I don't disagree at all with doing regular training. I'm doing 10km walks almost every day now. But everybody's metabolic capabilities are different, and rest periods are highly individual. Rest isn't optional, ask any bodybuilder.
You do mention inflammation in a previous comment and overtraining increases it but does the negative consequence of inflammation due to overtraining on how one feels subjectively outweigh the cascade of endorphins and neurotransmitters in response to exercise that correspond to an uplift in mood or an alleviation of stress? I'm not sure but in the given context (original post) your point is valid but of much less concern probabilistically and physiologically.
I do grant however that that is only my opinion and very much up for debate.
Usually exercise in overtraining doesn’t feel good in the way you are describing it. It creates extra stress and the body won’t be inclined to release endorphins to encourage that behavior.
None of this is going to be "overtraining" and/or earn me medals.
Over November I'll be going on a hiatus of anything that I do just to fill time and distract myself to prevent boredom.
So first of all, it's pretty clear that you _do_ have some interests. You mention Feynman and Kazantzakis. That sounds like you're interested in the history of science and literature. That sounds pretty cool.
Many people will recommend going to a professional which I won't try to dissuade you from but that's not mutually exclusive with examining your lifestyle.
I'm obsessed with this podcast by Andrew Huberman (Stanford Neuroscientist) because he's talking about a scientific basis for stuff that has "felt" true to me for a while. Your food diet affects how you feel but your information diet does massively as well. There is a neurochemical basis for this with your baseline dopamine levels, that sets your motivation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmOF0crdyRU&t=779s
I also recommend reading the book Dopamine Nation.
Too much social media will fry your brain. If you're checking Hacker News more than a handful times of day, work on doing less of that. If you're addicted to Reddit, Twitter, or pornography, work on doing less of that. Exercise. Spend time in the outdoors. Focus hard on sleep hygiene. Eat less sugar and processed foods.
You can not change all this stuff overnight but if you can take baby steps it will help massively. You will not feel better tomorrow or next week but if you take tiny steps you will feel a tiny bit better in a few months.
I would also highly recommend learning about mindfulness, meditation, and yoga. A lot of dissatisfaction is aversion to a feeling of emptiness that we have to learn to accept.
Again, I'm not trying to dissuade you from getting any sort of help, especially if you're socially isolated (though you mention having friends). I just don't want you to underestimate how much you can help yourself.
Lastly but not least, if you're eating great, exercising, getting natural sunlight, spending meaningful time with good social relationships, sleeping consistently, and moderating your internet usage, and you still feel no energy or interest in anything, you can just calmly accept it. Life "passes" us all by whether we're joyful or interested or not. Sometimes people with passionate interests actually get more problems from those interests than someone who can just calmly accept the moment for what it is. Ask yourself if the interests would make you happier, or if the actual problem is that you are making an imaginary problem out of not being interested in things. Just food for thought!
Zorba the Greek is a fictional character. Not a great role model at all, since he's purely a made up construct.
So, just like almost everybody else - but in his case he was indeed a genius and very interesting...
>Zorba the Greek is a fictional character. Not a great role model at all, since he's purely a made up construct.
Missing the point...
Projection?
Not to dissuade you from finding passion, but from someone who’s always been passionate about things, it can drive you a little crazy. Not to mention the joy that you speak of is temporary, there is always another hill to climb/ goal to reach
To answer your question, though: I found a friendly community of people that held a similar worldview to me.
There's certainly side effects, but most people find the side effects more tolerable than depression itself. And, many are able to use the SSRIs as an adjunct to more permanent therapy and do not need to take the pills long term.
“The core symptom of depression is said to be anhedonia, which refers to loss of interest or a loss of feeling of pleasure in certain activities that usually bring joy to people.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(mood)
Later, when I read Buddhism, it says similar things.
So, should we just prepare ourselves for death like the ancient Jains who starved themselves to death because nothing had any meaning?
That would be pretty worthless, innit?
I have discovered a simple, yet, profound truth: "Meaning is what you assign to stuff with stern agency. Nothing else."
You are the sole assigner of meaning, and you do the assigning, and it's your life's mission to stick to it.
I have found meaning in health, self-preservation through earning money, love- romantic and other kinds, parents, dog, learning new things, music, enjoying small things in life, helping others selflessly, and making it a mission to contribute to society as much as possible so maximum number of people can realize such intricacies of the nature of reality.
Yes, I was in your situation before. And I did bounce back. All it took me was being in ICU for 15 days when I was 21, fully conscious but fully paralized and ventilated. And meditations. A lot of it.
(I fully recovered within two months, and currently live a fully healthy life with no medications.)
It seems solid advice since part of the problem with depression in general and your description seems to be the inward focus on yourself...
Also, I'll add we like different things: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!”
Life is a curse, but maybe I can make something from it.
We were all happier before we existed. Non-existence had no upside but no downside either (practical or existential), we are burdened with existence and the knowledge and uncertainty it brings. But... how can a curious person not want to see how far they can go? The herculean attempt to transcend ones station will probably end in failure, but... maybe it won't, how interesting would that be?
And after all, let's be intellectually humble, as much as we know/think that this is all meaningless, what if we are wrong? What if everything IS meaningful? What if we ARE the meaning? Who can truly say for certain one way or the other? Only the arrogant would claim to know 100%.
Get weird with it, see what silly shit you can do, maybe your consciousness will drive our von neumann probes, maybe fundemental truths will be discovered in our life time (we are in the middle of an unprecedented technology hockey stick after all. )
The only thing really keeping me alive and fighting is my girlfriend and my family, which I have pretty poor contact with if I'm honest, but I still don't want to upset them.
Makes me think that people who talk about kids are just those whom it hit much earlier.
Maybe you need find some place to volunteer? help your community? or do any kind of meaningful work?
Do you think you can just stop being a mammal?
There is no greater impact, no clearer sense of impact, than starting from ones own neighborhood.