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One thing I was surprised not to see here but applies to any termination for any reason (even quitting really): do not sign anything without being paid for it. Even if they are offering a severance run it by a lawyer first. Without though, just don't, no matter how innocuous it seems. It's for their benefit, not yours.
If you are a highly skilled technologist you will not have any issue finding a new job. If you are greatly bothered by the changes at Twitter and the new ownership it is almost certainly for the best that you leave and do something else. I don't see why someone skilled enough to work at Twitter would desperately hang on working for someone you can't stand to try and get some severance. Life isn't fair and this is the free market, and you are earning Big Buck$, dust off the resume and join a new company. Life is too short to live like that.
Perhaps. But a lot of people really invest in their job and their projects and their colleagues, and it's a traumatic experience.
Well hopefully it’s also a learning experience to not invest so much in an entity that doesn’t give a crap about your wellbeing.
With age and experience comes that wisdom
I don't know if you know this or not, but often people's first job is in fact at a company. Perhaps even Twitter, so they may not have gone through a wave of layoffs before and don't know their rights or have connected to coworkers outside of work-specific communications.
Why quit for free when you can make them pay?
What makes you think they're going to pay?
Either they pay or you can sue, publicly complain damaging their reputation and so on. That's why you never quit in this cases, but make sure that everybody knows that your BFF is a lawyer.
Unless the company has zero money, there is always a severance package.
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"Preparing for a Malicious “For-Cause” Termination The new leadership has dramatically changed the expectations of workload across the organization. It is now expected that teams work evenings and weekends to ship products. Work progress is being tracked by the hour in spreadsheets to build precedent for terminating workers “for cause” to avoid paying severance. "

That's just shitty. Richest guy in the world and he doesn't want to pay severance. CA has some pretty strong labor laws, I'd think requiring people to work evenings & weekends would be a no-go.

From a game-theory standpoint it seems like given that Musk is going to do everything he can to keep from paying severance that the best strategy would be for everyone to just walk out the door all together and let Musk figure it all out by himself. Don't give notice, just stop showing up for work.

Having won a severance lawsuit in the past (Quebec jurisdiction though):

Employment lawyers must be salivating at this point.

Twitter is blatantly trying to avoid paying severance by using the for cause, and are likely sloppy in doing it given management pressure.

Gentle reminder to everyone that a big reason companies pay severance is so you dont sue them.

If they offer you the minimum legal package, or worse they try to bullshit you into even less, you should be suing them. Theyre hoping you dont.

Even California's labor laws are not going to be close to anything in Canada. And I don't know how many Twitter folks are remote, but if they're not in a very small minority of states, they're basically at the whims of management.

At the end of the day, Twitter is under new management and it is within management's right to change to circumstances of your employment. If they start pushing night and weekend work, and you don't deliver, that alone isn't necessarily a violation of any law. You didn't perform, and it's completely possible that your termination is legally for cause, even in California.

Employment law is very complex and honestly the situation will vary drastically even among similarly leveled folks on the same team fired at the same time. What kind of notification you're given, what kind of documentation there, previous reviews, etc. all play a role.

I think it's shitty to try to squeeze out people like this but just because it's shitty doesn't mean it's illegal or that it's a good idea to sue over it.

Everything you say is correct, but Twitter employees should all still:

1. Document everything off company devices

2. Consult an attorney, preferably specialized in employment law.

Prepare for a lawsuit, itll be worth it if one is necessary.

You are missing a key point: scale of lay offs.

Of course an employer can pull this off for a handful of employees, but not for a significant percentage of their workforce.

If your claim was right, no employer would had paid severance for layoffs. They would just give a cause to every one laid off. Not that hard to come up with bs metrics.

> Twitter is blatantly trying to avoid paying severance by using the for cause, and are likely sloppy in doing it given management pressure.

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/finalpay.pdf

> There is no legal requirement under California law that employers provide severance pay to an employee upon termination of employment. Employees should refer to their employer’s policy with respect to severance pay. Severance pay plans provided by an employer pursuant to the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974, 29 U.S.C. § 1001, et seq. (ERISA), are subject to federal law. Contact the U.S. Department of Labor at www.dol.gov. In certain limited situations, California laws may apply. However, a thorough review of the facts is necessary before a determination can be made.

But layoffs in California of 50 or more people in a 30-day period require the employer give 60-day notice to affected employees as a result of the California Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification (WARN) Act[0]. This is often handled by giving 60+ days of compensation as severance with ~0 notice. If they can get away with saying it's "for cause" then they can claim it's not a layoff and therefore not covered by the WARN Act.

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[0]https://edd.ca.gov/en/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WARN

You are describing garden leave ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave ) which is often part of a the WARN layoff approach - but it is distinct and different than severance.

It is completely possible to say "we are going to lay off these 50 people on January 3, 2023" but not actually have them leave (and instead require them to come into the office for the next four weeks to help with knowledge transfer). That fills the requirement for WARN - the employees know that they are getting laid off and have time to find a new job.

In tech jobs, where IP is important, the garden leave approach is often taken because it limits the opportunity for an employee to engage in IP theft - but it is not required.

When I was laid off from Netapp in 2009, I was informed I was going to be laid off on March 16th. My last day was May 15th, 2009 and then I had a severance package that was 3(?) weeks of pay for every year I had worked there.

I could have left on my own accord in March if I wanted to, but my severance package was tied to me completing knowledge transfer for the next 60 days at which time the layoff would be complete.

> "Preparing for a Malicious “For-Cause” Termination The new leadership has dramatically changed the expectations of workload across the organization. It is now expected that teams work evenings and weekends to ship products. Work progress is being tracked by the hour in spreadsheets to build precedent for terminating workers “for cause” to avoid paying severance. "

Unfortunately this is happening at a different not-quite-FAANG company in the Bay as we speak

It’s a terrible feeling. Getting gaslit, having everything you do suddenly be under a microscope, finding flaws in any work you do correctly to further document your faults. Even though every other review you’ve had with your manager previously was positive. All to avoid paying out a mildly generous severance package en masse, and the bad press that comes with actual Layoffs…

Companies really show their true colors when times get hard. Benefits mean nothing if they’re taken away at the first sign of hard times

Unionize. Unfortunately, there is no other way to improve working conditions on a smaller scale, and it’s more actionable than legislation. Efforts to do so are protected by federal labor law.

Labor rights are not a four letter word. It’s dignity, plain and simple.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33426373

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> Unfortunately this is happening at a different not-quite-FAANG company in the Bay as we speak

It’s happening at FAANG companies as well. My team was dissolved last week and I was reassigned to a different team that already had a senior engineer on it. I was told by my manager that they only need one senior on the team and so it’s them or me. I’m encouraged to document their flaws and I’m sure they were told the same about me. The next review cycle is going to be brutal.

> Don't give notice, just stop showing up for work.

I’d assume many of the employees that will be kept are grateful they don’t have to carry the low performers any longer. Game knows game and high performers want to work with similar people.

Why would the cohort of high performing employees walk out for the benefit of the low performing employees?

Why would a high performer put up with being treated like shit because the new guy regrets his stoned impulse buy?

If I worked there, I'd walk.

Since you're so inspired sounds like maybe you should volunteer to go work there for free?
You sound terribly out of touch with reality, workaholism won't cure the void you feel in your soul... It can make you more money, which will just feel as empty as you are feeling right now.
It sounds like everyone is being required to work some pretty crazy hours. Why would even high performing employees want to be burned out when they could easily get another job?
Sad they’re asking people being paid many hundreds of thousands to put in some time to make real impact.

The great engineers are inspired by this leadership. It’s like fresh oxygen. They have purpose.

Hi Elon! Sounds like you're smoking weed again.
Maybe you can educate us all on what Twitter's new purpose is.

Because from what I've seen from Jason Calcanis, David Sacks etc they seem to be outsourcing product vision to their followers who have no skin in the game and plenty of hidden agendas.

Can't imagine any great engineers finding that inspiring.

So you're telling me that if your current job told you to do 12 hour work days 7 days a week, you'd leap right on that because it's inspiring?
Would and have. My wife is an insurance agent, basically that is her Q4.
Lol. Seriously just give up on your original assertion and say you're wrong. If not today, you will realize this eventually.
You might consider the fact that some folks have a different work ethic and approach to their careers than you do.

Also if I haven’t “realized” it in the 35 years that I have been doing this sort of thing…that perhaps there is nothing eventually to realize.

Twitter hasn't had real impact?

Some would argue that the impact has been negative. I don't even like Twitter. But the impact is one of the greatest of any software platform till date.

And I really doubt great engineers are the kind of herdable cattle like you suggest. Most have pride and self-respect. I suspect they will be the first to leave a s(t)inking ship, and get the good jobs in the market while they are still abundant.

> The great engineers are inspired by this leadership. It’s like fresh oxygen. They have purpose.

I’m sure the great engineers at Twitter were inspired by the order to print out all of their recent commits on sheets of paper and then promptly shred them before anybody looked at them.

I’m sure that the great engineers at Twitter who are parents are salivating at the opportunity to lose almost all of the time spent with their children.

How did you end up being a boot-licker for bosses and corporate management?

I ask this sincerely, given that you seem to be just another worker as most of us. When and how exactly did you decide that forcing workers, as best paid as they are, to work longer hours is something acceptable, and from the tone of your posts even desirable?

How long has been your career? 10 years? 20 years? How often have you found that people work much better when they are pressured with a lingering guillotine over their heads? Have you ever managed someone, or a team? And managed them enough to have to tap into team spirit and morale to keep some semblance of productivity when things crumble around them?

What exactly has happened in your life for you to be on the side of corporate-owners? Is is just a lack of liberating education compelling you to become an oppressor coming from the oppressed?

High-performing is not necessarily equivalent to working crazy hours. In fact, working crazy hours, in some circles, is indicative of not being high-performing.
From the original post it sounds like everyone is being required to work evenings and weekends. Doesn't sound like high performers are excepted from that.
Reading this comment I highly doubt you're a high performer.

The really great people understand that life isn't a zero sum game and have a high degree of empathy and altruism for their team members. And they definitely see the bigger picture e.g. that firing 50% of the company (as is rumoured) is not going to be good for anyone.

> I highly doubt you're a high performer.

They could also be young/naive, but.. yeah.

I'm old enough to have survived large layoffs a couple of times in my career. In both instances a very large number of the "top performing" survivors left the company within a couple of months.

Large layoffs tend to breed a sense of insecurity and insecurity tends to get the remaining people to scurry, and the first out the door are naturally going to be the ones with the most options because their skills are highly sought after.

Putting it in very superficial terms... assuming you manage to get it right with choosing the "Cs" and lower on the layoffs, the As generally bolt soon after and you end up with a company full of Bs. At least that tends to be how it goes in my real world experience.

A lot of things managers and higher ups don't see is the human connection. You can look at the metrics, organize people by stack ranking and then fire the quote unquote worst performers, but those worst performers can also be core to the business in other ways by being good team players or good to work with.

That's when you get Jim the all-star programmer leaving because John the slightly underperforming guy gets laid off and he no longer has anyone with relevant interests to talk to. That's assuming that John is underperforming as a whole and not just underperforming relative to his team, which his team could be generally high performance.

So then instead of a 150% programmer and a 90% programmer, you end up replacing both of them with 110% programmers for a net loss in productivity.

Depends on the current ratio of A/B/C/lower. If Musk thinks that As are currently rare at Twitter, then having a company full of Bs left could be a big improvement. I have no idea if this is true, but Twitter's profits and pace of innovation don't necessarily make me think they're filled to the brim with rockstars.
I've never met a "high performing employee" who is willing to work the kind of hours being demanded, especially to meet arbitrary deadlines. Frankly to high performers know their value and are far less likely to bow to this nonsense.
High-performing employees do not enjoy being abused the way Elon is abusing current Twitter employees. Being good at what you do does not make someone enjoy working 24/7 under threat of firing. They especially don't like doing it for somebody who is openly antagonistic and disrespectful towards them.
It's shameful is what it is. Richest man in the world trying to pick the pockets of average workers after he abused them and threw them out of a job.
I hope this breaks his reputation amongst tech types. But sadly it probably won't.
I think this whole fiasco has definitely tarnished his reputation among all but the very most devoted muskbros. I'd certainly never consider buying a Tesla now - not just because I don't want to support Musk's project, but because driving a Tesla is starting to be a bad look.
Right. They worked for a shitty company with shitty service that elevated shitty people to prominence while collaborating with a shitty government to oppress speech while ignoring shitty users who were distributing underage porn. Poor them.
> If you’re not in a single party consent state, get creative. Have a colleague in one of these states hop on the phone to help you record and document any layoff conversations.

This feels like very risky advice. If your colleague is not party to a conversation, you can’t just sneak them in to the conversation to have them record it.

I think if by record they mean "write down what is said", this may not violate the wiretap laws of some states.
Having someone on a call writing down what is said does not create as compelling of evidence as an audio/video recording. It would be useful since it would be contemporaneous, but assuming the person is your friend, their loyalty/honesty would be called into question in court. That wouldn't happen with an audio recording (barring deepfakes).
If by "record" they mean "write down what is said" then they wouldn't specifically be suggesting finding a colleague in a single-party consent state.

Because "writing stuff down" isn't prohibited in any state.

My reading was that they're suggesting that in so-called two-party consent states, getting a third person in the room (whether or not it's done surreptitiously) and then having consent from 2/3 parties makes the recording legal. That's not true, of course - "two-party" is a bit of a misnomer. This feels like dangerous advice.
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Tweeps should have formed a union in April. It was obvious that Musk was really going to inflict cruelty and disrespects upon them from the beginning.
Why would the high performing employees unionize with the poor performers to protect them? They’re grateful to see the deadweight cut off.
You only need a majority to unionize. Do more than 51% of Twitter employees think they’re the highest performing?

Let the exceptionalists fend for themselves if they feel so inclined. You only have to convince the majority, not those who think they’re the best (whether warranted or not). If you’re “high performing”, you’ll land anywhere you want, right? Call their bluff. What do you have to lose? Your tenuous at will employment?

I very much disagree that a) Twitter is only cutting dead weight and b) Tweeps are happy about seeing their peers fired en masse.
I’m sure there will be some people let go that don’t deserve it. But I imagine the majority of the sorting here is pretty accurate.

My guess is 6 months from now the company will be stronger than ever with an inspired staff that trusts their peers are pulling weight too.

You think half of Twitter's engineers aren't just bad, they are dead weight. And there was no performance evaluation system in place to get rid of them? Come on. That's an outrageous claim without any evidence.
>...be stronger than ever with an inspired staff

Ah yes, the "inspiration" from solving the world's biggest problems of letting people send deep thoughts two sentences at a time.

If half of my coworkers got laid off, I would be exactly the opposite of inspired. I'd feel ashamed that I stayed after that.
If half of my coworkers got laid off, I'd be running away from the company faster than light. Staying after they pull a stunt like that only means waiting until they pull another one (or the company just collapses from the shock of losing that much capacity).
Imagine the look on this guys face when he's the one who gets the layoff slip while the one's he thought would get it, get to keep their job.

Don't be so sure, you're a high performer. High performance isn't just about your own performance. All it takes is for the project you're working on to end up on the dead end list and all the sudden, you'll be on the dead end list too. There's too many factors that influence a person's performance besides just the work they put in.

Based on your comments it sounds like you have beef with what you consider less skilled employees. I bet you're a joy to work with. Maybe you should take some time off, you sound burned out. Like being 100% honest here.
Yeah, it's very weird how this person keeps posting obsessively about how glad Twitter employees are to see their colleagues fired.

I'm not sure what the problem is here, but that kind of behavior does make me suspect they're that obnoxious coworker we've all had who's deeply unpopular and doesn't even realize it.

This has got to be elon’s HN account. Insane amounts of pro Elon, anti union comments.
Musk isn't going to somehow accurately identify the worst performers. You lose good people too when laying off half the workforce. Not just that, but the treatment of those who remain is likely to be really poor. Did Musk wipe out their RSUs? I don't know, but he has incentive and that special lack of empathy needed to cut their pay. The union protects all of the employees.
It's a good reminder that we should all be unionizing.
I wonder if Musk would have claimed that was an MAE. My gut says yes.
I would say that Elon Musk must know that trying to layoff half the company under the guise of "for-cause" would be certain to open him up to massive legal liability, but the past few months have led me to suspect Mr. Musk fundamentally misunderstands the American legal system.

In any event, it would be illegal, there would be plenty of lawyers ready to work on contingency, and politicians would also be eager to investigate.

> but the past few months have led me to suspect Mr. Musk fundamentally misunderstands the American legal system.

I think you're right, but I also think that he figures he's the richest man in the world and can do pretty much whatever he wants at this point.

I think he understands it just fine. He calculates the cost/benefit ratio of trying something whether it's legal or not. If it works, great for him! If it doesn't work, oh well, it costs him a few extra dollars. Just like trying to back out of the buyout.

Most people are easily intimidated by legal-sounding crap, like a severance agreement written up by company lawyers. In my experience, most lawyers are crap (I have had 1 good one out of around 5)and a lot of the "legal agreements" being written have illegal stuff in them, which is why they always say "if anything in this contract is found to be illegal, the rest of it still holds".

The advice to consult with a lawyer and maybe an accountant is IMO well worth the extra trouble and expense. They're counting on employees being too intimidated to do it.

Move your comp letters, redacted promo packets, redacted impact docs, promo letters, and pay stubs (on Workday) to your personal laptop. It’s imperative you have access to your key employment documents.

In many cases these systems only have SSO login. So how do you get that data onto your laptop when as mentioned earlier in the article you could be fired for cause when sending data is detected.

Take a picture of your screen with your phone?
That's clearly not what they meant here. They specifically used the word move.
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Shall we call November 2022 the Mythical Musk Month?

I'm not a tweep, but I'd add:

- if you have any sort of access to your employer's network from your personal devices (e.g. email / calendar / WiFi etc.) remove it and check for any MDM settings. Especially if your employer has remote wipe capability on your device, or could legally confiscate your device due to some legal policy.

- Get a copy of information that makes it easy to write your next resume. E.g. your job description / leveling guide.

- If you're more nefarious than I am, consider maxing out any temporary benefits that might not be withdrawn after you leave. E.g. taking home company desk / chair / hardware for loan use in your home office if allowed (to improve your productivity). If they want it back after you're fired for cause, make them come get it, you don't work for them, so why do their work?

- Less nefariously, it's probably time that you accidentally "lose your badge" and get a replacement especially if that's used for discounts like car rental, airlines, gym memberships, etc. Copy codes for these things especially if they're a good discount you might use when you're laid off.

- Consider the effect being laid off might have on your 401k match etc. Min/Max it out if this makes sense for your financial situation.

- Go through your emails to get a list of contacts that you've ever worked with / emailed. You never know who will be a good person to have in your network later (and who might not appear in linkedin)

- I have heard people say that there are companies with severance linked non-disparagement clauses that can be a PITA, as well as non-disclosure clauses that make it impossible to disclose severance related things like amounts etc. I'd speculate that these clauses could make it problematic to get advice from your peers / friends.

- Plan something good for after the layoff if you're not immediately in need of a new job (take a vacation).

- Talk with an immigration attorney about what termination and not having a job means for you and your family.

- Find out your employer's policies around termination of people that have immigration issues.

- COBRA can be pretty expensive - find out what this might cost for you and your family (it may work out cheaper to just pay for things as they arrive or look at marketplace plans).

- Join blind for your employer

- Take care of your immediate mental health, when everything is going to shit, remember that making time to do the things that you love doing is important. Walk the dog. Play that game. Go to that happy hour.

Good luck

The greatest lie ever told to employees by their company is that "they are all family".
Working at a company like that you really have to come to terms with the fact that any second you're working there, could be your last. Act accordingly.

I take that to mean, that one definately should not be working evenings and weekends. Why do all that, for a company that's not going to value your work and look for wrongful ways to terminate you. If anything it means, you should work much fewer hours.

If we elide "like that" from your first sentence I agree. I promote people always assume that firing could happen anytime. Taking this approach makes you less susceptible to agree to unreasonable requests.
What does “for-cause” mean in an at-will state? If you’re fired, you generally still qualify for Unemployment Insurance. Severance payment is not a law, but a per-company practice. If a company plays games with their benefits, that can’t be unexpected.