Ask HN: Working in a VR Headset?
I am working full remote right now(programming/gamedev) and I travel several times a year for periods of up to two months. Because of specifics of my job I need to have a powerful workstation(I mostly need a powerful CPU) and I am comfortable with at least two 27" monitors. Traveling with that much stuff is only possible with a car, and even then the whole setup takes too much space.
Laptops are getting there with the compute power, but the 27" monitors aren't getting any smaller. Meta Quest Pro(which seems to be the top of the line now) has been just released and even tho it is somewhat pricey($1500), it still costs as much as three good 27" monitors.
Does anyone have any useful experience to share on working in a VR headset? Is it comfortable for longer periods of time? How is it on the eyes?
256 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 236 ms ] thread"I Spent Hundreds of Hours Working in VR"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29978036
and
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28678041
The latter discussing this classic "Working from Orbit" article (below) has been linked before, but it's from a clear fan, which is not necessarily representative. But it demonstrates it works for some - and that's with the Quest 2.
https://medium.com/immersedteam/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d...
I haven't tried it myself extensively, but personally I think the tech and software is not quite there yet for full comfort and practicality (eg text legibility) - at least on a plug-and-play level - for the average interested user.
- Valve Index: 11.07 PPD
- Quest II: 20.58 PPD
- Quest Pro: 22.6 PPD
(In full disclaimer I'm affiliated with SimulaVR, and we're working on a headset with 35.5 PPD.)
Peak human eye res is 60 PPD.
Absolutely no
> How is it on the eyes?
Like staring at a tv from 4cm away for extend periods of time
I've used VR headsets, nothing is comfortable after even an hour of use, we're just not designed for that
There seems to be something specific about VR that invites people to vastly over-extrapolate their personal experience. I find it really difficult to believe you've tried the Quest Pro or NReal Air [0].
Current hardware have lots of other flaws but what you mention (comfort) is mostly solved for most people (there are always exceptions).
[0] https://www.nreal.ai/air/
I used a Quest 2 once at a conference exhibit booth demo -- so maybe 10 mins max in the headset, probably less -- and it left me dizzy, disoriented, and unable to focus my eyes correctly for at least as long after taking it off. Had to sit on the floor in the exhibit hall to clear my head.
Ask your friend to show you some of the basic demos that came with the headset they have. I bet you will have much better time.
Another aspect causing discomfort is for the headset lenses to be sweaty/greasy/fogged up slightly - again very common when doing mass demos on exhibit floors ...
The dizziness and disorientation depend very much on the content you are working with. This is not universal! So the fact that some demo you have tried made you very dizzy and feeling uncomfortable only means that that demo was poorly made and not that all VR content will feel like that.
In addition, the feeling of dizziness and motion sickness will diminish over time for most people. So don't judge the entire concept on your poor 10 minutes experience that you had in less than ideal conditions.
(I have worked over 20 years on VR/AR, both as a researcher and commercially)
I'm interested in how you were able to determine that VR was the cause vs age or just eye strain from using a regular screen in suboptimal conditions.
comfortable reading is around the dozen lines of text.
Surely this tells you that you would go in the opposite direction of the desired one. They are excellent for other applications - as a memex-while-moving, for example. They do not replace a station.
The headset is too clunky and heavy still, after a few hours you get a sore neck and I have trouble with lack of airflow on my skin (where it contacts my face gets sweaty and irritated after long periods)
More importantly: the resolution is too small. Using an IDE to edit text inside VR technically works, but the font size has to be so huge because the resolution inside is so poor, coding becomes an exercise in scrolling and navigation rather than an exercise in problem solving.
I’m the same as you, I like being portable, and when I was a travelling tech nomad for 2 years it meant hauling two monitors in the car everywhere.
One other option that actually worked well was getting a good quality 1080p projector and mounting it on a camera stand, I used this for a bit instead of monitors at the hotels/Airbnbs and it worked well, although that’s just a single 1080p monitor
Good idea on the road. And you could set up two projectors for two giant monitors. Although one projector and laptop should be enough for most needs.
Laser diode projectors in particular are bright and uniform enough to project onto a clean wall. There's also the option of short-throw or regular projector. Flicker-free and reliable. Turning your hotel room wall into a big screen makes sense.
I would definitely choose a portable projector over VR if I needed the equivalent of a large monitor on the road. The other thing is, you can have the screen on and do "normal life things" like read physical documents, gaze out the window, use your mobile phone, pace around the room, scratch your head, play with your hair as you think... and your screen remains stationary and separate.
I would not use it for productivity because it's a new environment/more distracting than useful. Also turning your head a lot to look at things.
I like my curved ultra wide monitor.
When the physical SimulaOne comes out I'll try it out again that one is not tethered/better quality eye display.
RE resolution being low on the Valve Index: we absolutely agree :] The Simula One offers ~3x higher pixel density than the Valve Index, and 50% higher density than the Quest Pro. This dramatically impacts the extent to which you have to turn your head to look at things.
There are upgrades that you really need: A better head strap, ideally one with an adjustment knob at the back to easily loosen and tighten the headset. Also one with an extra battery that both gives you longer unplugged time but more importantly balances the headset front to back.
And a better headset/face interface. You can get one that is much softer and thicker, which puts less pressure on the face and moves the screens a few extra mm away. They also have vented interfaces, which help cut down on the problem of getting hot face.
And lastly, you know how all the experts advise that when you're working you stop and take a break to look away from your screens every 20 minutes or so? It's more important in VR to heed that advice. All you have to do is slip off the headset (you got the easy to adjust one that just slides right off, right?), take ten seconds to look at something far away our out the window, and then put it back on and keep working.
If you do all that, there are a lot of great products out that that will give you great virtual monitors and keyboards.
But I can see they sell an upgraded facial interface that is billed as "full light blocking", which usually means thicker and softer, so they probably at least have that accessory. I doubt any other accessories exist yet, since it's too new and not a big enough market.
But it’s also not yet perfect
I haven’t tried it in wired mode but wireless has a bit of latency (which is fine for coding and other productivity stuff but not workable for games for example)
It’s really nice that it’s easy to switch between pass through to see your environment and VR mode to be able to focus and not get distracted
It’s early but def where things are headed if you ask me!
At home I have a 8k screen which is hard to beat…but just a matter of time until VR can match that resolution IMO
Instructions https://www.meta.com/help/quest/articles/horizon/getting-sta...
There is similar apps from third parties too but I haven’t tried those yet
My biggest complaint about Workrooms is that the MacBook Pro keyboard recognition doesn’t have an option for the 14in model, oddly.
On the other hand, im not sure resolution is high enough for text heavy work
You're pretty much describing the Quest Pro. This part also matches the Quest 2 with Elite Battery Strap for what it's worth, but the Quest Pro also matches your next criteria, whereas the Quest 2 didn't.
> And a better headset/face interface. You can get one that is much softer and thicker, which puts less pressure on the face and moves the screens a few extra mm away. They also have vented interfaces, which help cut down on the problem of getting hot face.
The Quest Pro only attaches at the top on the forehead, is open air by default and further away from the face, and for example I can comfortably fit it over my glasses, which I couldn't do on the Quest 2.
It's a huge step up in comfort for long sessions, although you'd still want to attach a USB-C power cable for anything beyond a couple of hours.
Disclaimer: I work at Meta but not on anything VR related, this is based on my own experience as a personal user of VR headsets.
Speaking as a user of a heavily comfort-modded Quest 2 and recent Pro owner: the Pro is surprisingly comfortable (especially with the below lifehack) and mostly on par with a Quest 2 with a modded Bobo halo strap.
Craziest thing about the Quest Pro is that you can (carefully) pop off the back cushion and flip it. I highly recommend anyone with a Pro try it out since it’s significantly more comfortable and brings a very noticeable increase in FoV.
There’s a thread about this on one of the Quest subreddits - and there’s not a single comment from anyone who prefers the stock placement. It does make aligning the charging dock a bit finicky but otherwise it’s kind of strange that Meta chose the other cushion direction as the default.
I still don't think the systems are 'there', yet. But I feel that I can finally see the way forward to real success.
[edit] I have the older version of this Bobovr fan:
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B09Y58GC34/
Then unless you spend $$$ for very high end hardware with high resolution (4k on a headset != 4k on a monitor!) you will not be able to work efficiently.
There are also many problems with the applications and usability of the entire stack when it comes to doing actually productive work.
Everything I have found in VR land assumes internet connectivity, demands a login/PII, and transmits data back to the mothership against my will.
It could be. Just like you can use Android phones without signing into Google (or at least could, not sure how stock OS works nowadays as I'm on microG for the last couple years).
It’s a stand alone full system though
AFAIK, it will be possible to use SimulaVR either in standalone mode (with its own portable computer running everything) or in tethered mode (plugged into a normal computer which runs everything); there's even an option on the preorder page to get a version without the portable computer (it is my understanding that the portable computer is detachable, so the full version can be transformed into a tethered-only version simply by detaching it).
On Oculus, there's a way to skip the mandatory account sign in and just sideload apps instead. [1] Some tracking will still be there, but I think as it grows more popular we'll also see custom ROMs for it. Maybe even some running the Simula OS?
[1]: https://basti564.github.io/Quest-Account-Logout/
I don’t know any VR setups available today that I can say that about. Even without analytics they phone home with identifiers (serial numbers, login cookies, etc) on launch/boot.
IMO, until VR gets the size and weight of safety goggles you need the device to rest on your forehead. The PSVR is still the single most comformtable VR system that's shipped because there is no pressure on your face whatsoever.
Apparently you can get these for Quest 2. Here's one. Don't own a Quest 2 though so I haven't tried it
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B599S56K
I go have a Rift S. It tried to copy PSVR but failed to make it as good. You have really crank the back of the head strap below the ridge of the back of your head to get the HMD to rest on your forehead and not your face, and then it slowly slides and it's back to resting on your face.
Let me also add, if the thing requires a strap that goes over the top of your head then it's a fail!
This configuration is called a "halo" strap.
I also have the Quest Pro now. It comes with a halo strap. Nothing touches your cheeks. Resolution is also very high, and the new pancake lenses are very clear.
That's another problem with older headsets. The Fresnel lenses in previous systems cause "god rays" around any bright objects on dark backgrounds. Like, say, light text on a dark background for a dark-mode UI.
Pancake lenses don't have that problem. They also have a much larger sweet spot, so you don't have to get the headset perfectly adjusted every time, and you can look around with just your eyes, not moving your head, more.
I think the Vive Flow was the first commercially available headset to use the pancake lenses, but the Flow is otherwise not a great experience. The Quest Pro is really impressive.
I was a complete Meta disbeliever and long time Quest owner, having put a few dozen hours into working in Immersed last year before putting it down and accepting it wasn’t good enough.
Fast forward to last weekend, give it a try with the setup described above instead. Proceeded to do a 9hr shift fully in VR. Went out, got the Pro, and now I am all in. We are there. Give it a shot, you can always return it right?
Also +1 to everything jedberg said in their comment, great advice.
I embraced a single-monitor workflow early in my career after experimenting and finding that having multiple monitors often makes me less productive than just switching workspaces with ⌘+tab. Now it's extended to a single-laptop workflow that's given me incredible flexibility to travel and move around the office.
When do people really need multiple monitors? My only guesses are if they're using Windows, or have a really short feedback loop workflow between two apps that are too big/awkward to share a screen? Which, I guess OP could be in both boats.
Are you able to type something other than you're reading? How do you scroll?
There are many more similar use cases.
For me a laptop screen is simply not usable for more than 2 windows, and sometimes I would like to reference 3-4 windows. Sometimes even 2 is too much on the laptop screens.
Alt tab doesn't work because now one window is partially hidden behind the other.
I've also experimented extensively with tiling, which doesn't really help my issue at all, I simply need two monitors to be as productive as I can be.
But really I get the sentiment. A well organized high resolution single screen can be sufficient
I tried VR but found the resolution lacking.
IMO, assuming OP is using this setup for software development, it has to be a very specific short feedback loop to really justify 2 monitors, something that can't easily tested as part of a test suite such as layout testing which might require specific resolution and thus either constant switching or two monitors. I can't think of many other situation, even in web development, when one cannot make a good use window managers and testing components in isolation to avoid constant switching.
Despite having used 2 monitors in the past on occasion, I found that I've only used it to compensate for not taking the time to perfect my workflow or test-suite in such way that would allow me to be productive.
The only real use case where I can now personally justify the usage of two monitors is for in-person pair-programming: mirroring the display allows both participants to position themselves in front of the monitor rather than at an odd angle which over time strains both necks and eyes. Yet both can sit close enough to allow effective face-to-face communication.
Even doing a single regular 4k monitor was stretching it for me, but my current setup satisfies me almost perfectly. The only upgrade I am planning to do in that aspect in the future is replacing it with an AR/VR headset that can emulate screens at a good enough resolution. While the current VR/AR tech isn't there yet, it is getting closer and closer, which gives me a lot of hope. I tried Quest 2 for that purpose, and I would pick it over a dual 1080p monitor setup even now. Sadly, it isn't quite as good as a single 5k ultrawide at the moment. There are other (very solvable) rought points with it currently too, like comfort (Quest 2 gets a bit tiring and sweaty to use after a couple of hours), but I heard Quest Pro has addressed that specific one, which is also awesome to see.
Given the leaps I've observed over the past few years, I feel like people are realizing the immense value of it, and the companies realize it too. So I am expecting something like this to be a fully viable solution for me within the next 5 years. And that's not even going into the portability aspect. As someone working from a hotel for the past 2 weeks, it would be amazing to have an AR/VR headset that would allow me to have the same setup everywhere, because I am not going to lug my 5k ultrawide with me wherever I need to work. Which is also why I prefer to work from home rather than the office, because my current home setup is much more optimal for my productivity that my office one.
This[0] is the one I have. It is explicitly listed as thunderbolt 4, but, unfortunately, i dont't know if it supports thunderbolt 3. My hunch is that it does, but something wont work perfectly. Most likely, the usb hub won't, and the refresh rate will drop from 72hz to 60hz. Which is imo not a big deal whatsoever, as the main functionality that I personally value is still there.
LG also seems to have a thunderbolt 3 ultrawide monitor[1] that is very similar, and I recommend checking that one out. Only heard good things about it, and it is pretty much the predecessor of the one I linked in the beginning.
0. https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-40wp95c-w
1. https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide-monito...
I like having Email+IM on a vertical monitor on the side. If someone contacts me, I always have this communication screen, and I can respond to people without forgetting what I was working on. On my laptop, I press Cmd-Tab and everything is gone.
I also like having a second monitor above my main monitor just for source control. It's always there, so I can review changes while leaving the source files I was working on visible on my main monitor.
I also work a lot with VMs, and seing them all at the same time makes it easier to work with them.
It's much easier if you can lay out your work on a big area, and when every task has its own designated place.
I also work a lot on a single laptop when I'm not at the office, and I feel way less productive. I spend way more time trying to remember what I wanted to do, because stuff always disappears when I press Cmd-Tab.
Also a drop down quake style terminal with multiple tabs provides the same rapid access functionality for the command line.
I setup a login just for working in VR. I get MUCH more done as I'm totally distraction-free, and it's much better for my neck, as I'm looking at the screens in front of me, instead of down at my laptop. Looking down at my laptop for years has become a source of chronic pain, and working in VR removes it.
Setup is a Macbook Air M1, Quest 2, elite strap, and over-the ear headphones. I use Immersed, which is free, and put up a big screen in the middle to work on, with two narrow screens on either side for reference material.
Why not use an external monitor at eye level?
Or elevate the laptop and use an external keyboard.
I also found it surprisingly frustrating that I couldn’t see the keyboard. Every time I took my hands off it I had to do this blind search for it and get my fingers back to the right starting position. Symbols I don’t know how to touch type because they are rarely used was also more frustrating than I would have thought.
Many seem to be discounting it entirely without qualifying their comments with the headset and tech setup used…
That's fascinating, but it makes sense. I wonder how much of "Zoom fatigue" is caused by feeling you need more personal space, and could be mitigated by just having the screen be (or seem to be) the distance away that a normal human would.
You could probably get pretty far with floating screens rather than the whole avatar thing. They'd all still be staring at you when they talk to each other though.
How were you projected? Was everyone else looking at a person gazing vaguely in the direction of the camera and obscured by a bulky headset?
I'm going to re-try using Immersed as well, I haven't figured out a great way to address the latency in the office yet.
Obviously, working at Meta means showing up as an avatar to a meeting isn't seen as a big or unique deal (usually more than one person in every meeting is an avatar). I do think video of someone's face is WAY more expressive than an avatar.
If you bought a Quest and thought you can finally watch NSFW content at work, remember that Zuckerberg is now watching over your shoulder.
And he might even be looking at the code you write.
Horizon workrooms was like using a Mac - it “just works” when I onboarded, less features but way less hassle. I much prefer it personally.
To me, Mac is like Linux - tons of options, more features, but it’s a bit trickier to set up just right and things seem to not stay right, it takes constant adjustment.
Linux was like using a Mac - it “just works” when I onboarded, less features but way less hassle. I much prefer it personally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x293SiEdv4M
However it looks like they are more focused on hardware than software right now
If you don't have one of those headsets, there are some videos of people (whom we have no affiliation with) on YouTube testing it out: https://youtu.be/8gVLF8SnK84?t=424 Here's also (a pretty old) video of me hacking on Simula, in Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI.
It's also true that we're more focused on hardware right now. We plan on reverting more towards software development in 2023. For more details: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/issues/180#issuecomment-1...
Some things we have planned to implement include VR window tiling and some other UI stuff.
Good luck with the project!
Not yet, you can follow their progress at their blog (https://simulavr.com/blog/).
Meta lifted its ban on this, they will be able to ship! Also, has mucch better pixel density than quest headsets, even quest pro. Will be a bliss to read on. But provably no propper head tracking
They are supposed to include 6DOF positional tracking. Do you mean it's not "proper" because it's inside-out tracking?
This is our first foray into hardware, but we already developed a stable Linux VR Desktop (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula) from 2017-2021.
We try to provide frequent updates on our hardware engineering progress. For example, here's a recent post showing some videos of our review units: https://simulavr.com/blog/first-glimpse-of-review-units/ If you're interested in community discussion, you might also check out https://hn.algolia.com/?q=simulavr.com.
In the pictures and video, the headset the guy is wearing is probably light and without a display to vertically align his sight on.
I imagine they're trying to avoid the strap to make it more stylish to enable its use in public settings, but if it ends up being uncomfortable or hard to focus through, that would really hurt all other values it offers. It's meant primarily for work, so one should be able to stay on it for hours. Wonder how things will turn out.
Worst-case though, adding a strap is probably not too difficult of a mod.
https://invidious.dhusch.de/watch?v=eMsMm_q-akI
The color passthrough means you can actually have coffee at your desk among a million small things it adds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT1sps72_sE
For comparison: it offers 22.69 PPD. The human eye can distinguish up to 60 PPD.
He basically gushes about clarity.
Op: "According to Linus, the Text is still not clear enough"
I would be quite hesitant to use it in public, especially in the office.
I bought the entry level Quest 2 to evaluate the feasibility of this about a year ago. These are some of my insights (that might not apply 100% to Quest Pro):
- The resolution was too poor to comfortably read anything on two displays arranged about the same way as two horizontal 27" monitors side by side. This ultimately killed the whole effort.
- Without good passthrough, using a keyboard and mouse is a bit difficult.
- There is finger tracking, but I found the controllers to be more accurate. So I needed to keep the controllers on my desk.
- There is a bit of motion sickness that either goes away after a few days of use or reduces a bit. For me, I could never get over the motion sickness. But it wasn't very bad after a couple days of use.
- The screen door effect was very noticeable for me on Quest 2.
- It was possible to up the resolution and refresh rate of Quest 2 using developer options on the PC with some third-party software. With that, the headset might become uncomfortably warm to wear.
- The WiFi 6 wireless VR was surprisingly much better than expected. But it will definitely not be a good experience with typical hotel Wifi - not even close.
I was pretty happy to spend about £300 on a Quest 2 to try it for work. I then sold it for about £250. £50 to try this work mode for a few weeks was worth it. I chose not to go with VR for work at the time. I would suggest trying it yourself in some way similar to this. Perhaps not buying it but borrowing someone's VR headset for a bit, or going to one of the VR venues and just seeing how comfortable it is and what kind of resolution you might get?
The main thing was I couldn't make the virtual screen be as good as the physical ones, and being able to see to type - I'm not at the complete touch type level - especially without reference points.
The difference is I haven't sold mine, it is still here to try some VR gaming, which I also haven't got roudn to get.
My summary is I was impressed with what the technology can do, but it's not a replacement if you have a well set up desk.
https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k830-illum...
I didn’t notice the screen door effect on Quest 2, only the low resolution for reading text
Anyway I would consider Quest Pro or Pico 4 or something new rather than Quest 2.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDekX4vrSsA
[1] https://www.nreal.ai/specs/
It feels like a wall height screen about 8-10 feet in front of you. Perhaps a little bigger would be good, but it isn't that too small.
The resolution of 1920x1080 is ok. I wish it was higher. And it doesn't support AR monitors (the 1920x1080 in the glasses a mirror of the iPad - except for blink .. - the demos for android are much nicer with AR windows places in physical space)
The setup I'm testing:
I've only been testing a couple days.It feels much better than my experiments with Quest2 VR desktop. And when I am able to just work within a single app (blink, safari, ...) it is a good experience. My biggest struggle is iPad os - inconsistent keyboard shortcuts even in apple applications.
I'd like to try a tiny raspberry pi like device that allows remote-ssh vscode + remote tmux + streaming chrome (vnc or perhaps https://www.mightyapp.com) - but the hardware needs to support USB-C Display Port.
Perhaps a DIY powered by Framework mainboard... https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/156912081380642406...
Overall, it is still promising and I'm going to keep trying until end of January - to see if this is a good to take anywhere to code/dev/mosh. For a V1 of this experience it exceeds expectations (and is much better than quest2 for me)
At the top of this thread, the youtube video linked by that comment shows AR monitors on a Mac at 7:24 in the video. The software support for that isn't there on iOS or iPadOS, but it is supported on Mac, apparently. (And Android, as you noted.)
Supposedly a new version is being released mid-nov. Hopefully that will address the issues.
On the Nreals, the small FOV means the pixel density is much better than the alternatives.
I am super interested in getting the nreal glasses for work. But I'm also a bit hesitant due to this.
The combination of FoV and the resolution really isn’t there, I struggle reading text through it vs a 27” 1440p desktop monitor I have on the same PC. I really couldn’t imagine reading text for any length of time in VR.
(Edit: I just realised you were comparing to AR, not desktop, sorry.)