I hope people realize the problem with having a market for medical innovation, backed by patents and copyright as the way of financing medicine, this level of price gouging and capitalization on human suffering can only exist with the current IP laws, and we see a great reduction of price in countries that break those patents and allow for pharmaceutical manufacturers to produce medicine disregarding IP lawfare.
This is less about innovation and more about near-coercion to take the treatment. The price doesn't matter if people are not required/compelled to purchase it. When people are forced to take it to work or travel, then price matters because it looks like compelled theft.
Of course liberals are bending over backwards to defend big business and outrageous (actual) profiteering now, as evidenced by you being downvoted into oblivion. The merger of private corporations and public power, the definition of fascism.
Meanwhile they think Twitter is literally just fascist or something (whereas just a little while ago it was a private business free to do whatever it wanted, when they were censoring unfavorable media about political opponents as well as the opponents themselves). They flip flop like a weathervane in a hurricane.
That's absolutely a red-herring, Pfizer can only increase their prices like this thanks to state protection of their business practices and intellectual property.
Yes. It's important to remember that large parts of the global population are still banned from entering the USA because they didn't take the shots. For instance about a third of the Swiss population still cannot enter America for any reason, not even family connections, about 10% of the British population (officially; unofficially it's more like 25%). And now they want to add it to the childhood vaccination schedule which is the ultimate mandate.
And then we must recall that people are forced to pay for millions of doses by governments that are then left to expire because people didn't want them. A problem that does not happen if you let people make up their own mind whether to buy or not using their own funds. So there is still enormous levels of coercion involved with forcing people to "buy" this product.
Sounds like Pfizer is in need of an Economics 101 study. You can barely convince people to get vaccinated, you think you can make em pay a high price for it? Good luck.
Do you genuinely believe that you and your appeal to Econ 101 is likely to have a better grasp on drug pricing dynamics than drug pricing specialists at Pfizer?
Increasingly over the last week or so I forget that I’m scrolling HackerNews and not Reddit when I read comments like OPs. I mean this literally and not in jest. Is anybody else noticing more low effort / group-think / karma-farming comments lately?
Yes. Particularly in any topic that has been politicized. Covid related posts are filled with Reddit-tier comments. It might be interesting to have something like RES for HN.
I have worked with the design and creation of products regulated by Govt Agencies. When those agencies are both the rule enforcers and the recipient of profit from the very products they regulate, one has created a system that has all the wrong incentives. This is the case with Big Pharma, FDC, NIH, CDC - it has become the Medical/Industrial Complex. There are many examples of regulation application where those that enforce industry/gov't CFR are not on the receiving end of product revenue for which the gov't officials regulate.
Recently, the CDC added this vax to the "approved" list of vaxxes for kiddys. Many don't realize that once this EUA (emergency use approved) vaxx was placed on the kiddy list, Phizer is now off the hook for law suits/any liability. Now since many states will REQUIRE this vax for kids to go to Public Schools etc... hey we can jack the price up.... Reminds me of the TV series The Wire...... sad
"WASHINGTON, D.C. — On Wednesday, the Centers for Disease Control’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) will vote on whether to make COVID-19 vaccines part of the mandatory childhood immunization schedule.
If the committee votes in favor, vaccine makers’ liability for injuries will transfer from the corporations to the federal government’s National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) – effectively shifting the financial responsibility for the shots to the tax payer.
Pfizer and Moderna have so far been temporarily shielded from liability through the PREP Act, but that protection will end in 2023."
Clickbait article. Yes the price will go way up. Oxfam claims the doses cost $1 to make (maybe, maybe not Oxfam is guessing). Of course the "cost" to crank out 1 shot is going to exclude R&D, continued testing, ongoing strain testing, the inevitable lawsuits that arise through the course of business, compliance, cold storage and distribution, etc. Yes Pfizer expects to rake in money. Yes there are plenty of other options out there.
The price is just a game for discounts, insurance deals, government payouts, all shenanigans.
Most significant, no reason to get too incensed by this article.
Why do you feel the need that Pfizer deserves to not make a profit/why do you have an issue with the amount of profit Pfizer aims/wants to make/why do you feel your opinion on the subject matters/why do you feel qualified to "pick a bone" with how much profit Pfizer wants to make/why is it worth getting upset about/what control over the situation do you have that makes it worth your time/thought/resources?
Also, we won't really conquer covid until everyone has built up immunity and the countries with the lowest vaccination rates are the ones that can't afford this kind of markup.
This is still a problem that affects us all. Not saying that it would be less bad if it didn't affect us, but I mean that a hard-fought vaccine for a niche illness could have to be expensive to amortize development costs. Covid is not that.
Ps and like @Beltalowda says a lot of their R&D was publicly funded. And they got a huge boost by bringing their thus far experimental RNA vaccine tech into the mainstream.
At least €375 million of that R&D was funded by the German government.[1] And that is just one very direct grant for this specific vaccine; other estimates total US government spending on the vaccine from $18 billion to almost $40 billion USD (not all directly to Pfizer/BioNTech of course). And the Covid vaccine situation is not exceptional: government is almost involved to some degree in the form of R&D grants, clinical trail grants, being based on fundamental research at universities, etc.
And that's all fine; this is obviously a good way to spend government money as far as I'm concerned, and I don't really have any problems with Pfizer making a profit of it either, but ... there needs to be some balance. These people are socialist when it's convenient and then the next day they're hard-core capitalists when it's convenient.
Those were apparently grants, evidently coming with no long term contractual obligations. We needed a vaccine very quickly and we got it. I agree there needs to be balance, but are you wishing government agencies had delayed the process and spent time with lawyers working out a royalty agreements or otherwise handicapping Pfizer's development cost recovery? What if Pfizer spent all the money to develop the drug and it did not pan out?
Cue the comments whining about them profiting from a life saving vaccine. Yes, that's kind of how it works. Are they supposed to only profit from ineffective vaccines?
This one has already been heavily subsidized both on the production and R&D side.
Also these companies have gotten a huge boost by fast tracking their RNA tech. If it hadn't been for covid it would have still been experimental years away from widespread deployment. And the R&D is well written off by now.
I think they owe society a lot more than we owe them.
On thing to consider is that this is essential a list price. These prices do not necessarily reflect the actual price paid. From an NIH article:
"Private payers, especially large-volume purchasers, are able to negotiate deep discounts with drug manufacturers. Many private payers, including employers and managed care organizations, often contract with pharmacy benefit managers (PBMs) to manage prescription drug benefits for their enrollees."
The same is true for government health care programs.
Governments should not allow such inane profit margins on products subsidized by taxpayer money. It is clear abuse of good will for the sake of profits.
Let's not even touch the ethical baggage associated with excessive greed at the cost of lives.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 45.5 ms ] threadMeanwhile they think Twitter is literally just fascist or something (whereas just a little while ago it was a private business free to do whatever it wanted, when they were censoring unfavorable media about political opponents as well as the opponents themselves). They flip flop like a weathervane in a hurricane.
And then we must recall that people are forced to pay for millions of doses by governments that are then left to expire because people didn't want them. A problem that does not happen if you let people make up their own mind whether to buy or not using their own funds. So there is still enormous levels of coercion involved with forcing people to "buy" this product.
Not that I'm excited for it, just doesn't seem all that different
If the committee votes in favor, vaccine makers’ liability for injuries will transfer from the corporations to the federal government’s National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) – effectively shifting the financial responsibility for the shots to the tax payer.
Pfizer and Moderna have so far been temporarily shielded from liability through the PREP Act, but that protection will end in 2023."
The price is just a game for discounts, insurance deals, government payouts, all shenanigans.
Most significant, no reason to get too incensed by this article.
Your opinion is appreciate but I disagree heartily.
This article does not strike me at all as clickbait, and it completely worthy of "getting incensed" in my view.
The way you describe the Oxfam "claim" while correct, is a strawman argument. Why, because they were already managing to capture $20 - $30 a dose.
Why do you feel the need that Pfizer deserves to not make a profit/why do you have an issue with the amount of profit Pfizer aims/wants to make/why do you feel your opinion on the subject matters/why do you feel qualified to "pick a bone" with how much profit Pfizer wants to make/why is it worth getting upset about/what control over the situation do you have that makes it worth your time/thought/resources?
This is still a problem that affects us all. Not saying that it would be less bad if it didn't affect us, but I mean that a hard-fought vaccine for a niche illness could have to be expensive to amortize development costs. Covid is not that.
Ps and like @Beltalowda says a lot of their R&D was publicly funded. And they got a huge boost by bringing their thus far experimental RNA vaccine tech into the mainstream.
And that's all fine; this is obviously a good way to spend government money as far as I'm concerned, and I don't really have any problems with Pfizer making a profit of it either, but ... there needs to be some balance. These people are socialist when it's convenient and then the next day they're hard-core capitalists when it's convenient.
[1]: https://biontechse.gcs-web.com/news-releases/news-release-de...
[2]: https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/forefront.20210512....
Also these companies have gotten a huge boost by fast tracking their RNA tech. If it hadn't been for covid it would have still been experimental years away from widespread deployment. And the R&D is well written off by now.
I think they owe society a lot more than we owe them.
"Private payers, especially large-volume purchasers, are able to negotiate deep discounts with drug manufacturers. Many private payers, including employers and managed care organizations, often contract with pharmacy benefit managers (PBMs) to manage prescription drug benefits for their enrollees."
The same is true for government health care programs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK561162/
Without more data, it's hard to know how much above the origianl $30 Pfizer will actual make per dose.
Let's not even touch the ethical baggage associated with excessive greed at the cost of lives.