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Ask HN: Son is major in CS, but doesn't code. Red flag?

33 points by mapster ↗ HN
His interests are more in socializing and hobbies than tinkering in python, C++, or javascript. He had a few classes in js and C++ and did very well, but its not something he continues to do on his own.

I am not a developer or cs engineer, but my thought is for him to change majors if tinkering doesn't come naturally.

135 comments

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skyyler
Are any of his hobbies things that could be careers?

You don't have to eat sleep and breathe programming to pay the bills with it.

Have you considered talking to your son about his goals and dreams?

willnonya
It's rarely the best move to base careers around your hobbies. It tends to ruin your love for the hobby more often that make your work a joy.
badtuple
He's an adult, let him make his own choices.
mathgeek
I wouldn’t sweat it too much unless he is struggling in school or showing a lack of interest in his studies. The value of a degree in any of the sciences translates easily to many careers.
emars
Sounds like a straight shooter with upper management written all over him.
moffkalast
Well yes, but what exactly would you say he does here?
Raed667
He takes specifications from the customers and brings them down to software engineers. He is a people person!
sys_64738
Why can’t the customers hand the specs direct to the software people?
lamchob
Because there is an inevitable translation step between "customer wants X" and "engineers have to build Y to achieve X". This takes time and is a non-trivial task. I'm an engineer myself and I'm glad there are people between me and the customers. They're there to shield engineers from unnecessary tasks and scope creep. They are the necessary abstraction layer between engineering and business.
moffkalast
Ngl often times I wish there was a people person between me and clients. These damn people with their people things, ugh.

They probably wouldn't need a secretary though heh.

themodelplumber
You should be careful here and make things more objective. If you are looking at rational cues e.g. "socializing and good grades" and concluding that he needs a change, we can also say that you are being irrational wrt the social-norms bell curve.

A lot of mental coding goes on inside the mind first, and some people have an inner coding voice / logical internal monologue.

In such a case he's definitely coding all the time. So social life might even be therapeutic in quieting the inner monologue, so to speak. And that's just one example...

Good luck and always a good idea to let him know you are available to listen whenever.

navanchauhan
I am a sophomore right now. I know multiple students who have no interest in Computer Science outside of the classes and are still majoring in it.

I don't think this is a bad thing at all. To each their own.

Is there anything wrong if he wants to stick with it for now? As long as he knows that he can always switch majors if he wants to, there is nothing wrong with preferring to socialise over tinkering outside class. You can't force it, until it clicks.

qbasic_forever
College is the best time in his life to socialize and build relationships that last a lifetime. Let him do his thing. If his grades are fine why are you worried?

For a fresh out of college grad new hire/interview they're going to care much more about grades and school prestige than hobbies or side projects. At least for the major FAANG companies. Something like "deans list BS computer science from Berkeley" or "masters in CS with specialization in AI/machine learning from Stanford" on the resume is going to matter much more for easily getting hired in today's market than "I.. uhh.. like to tinker in my spare time".

coolspot
> For a fresh out of college grad new hire/interview they're going to care much more about grades and school prestige than hobbies or side projects.

In my experience it is exactly opposite of that. Especially for FAANG companies.

qbasic_forever
Everything is different with companies shrinking. It's an employer's market now and sadly they are mostly filtering based on where you went to school.
yolovoe
Not true. Most FAANGs don't care about grades or even your major. All that matters is the interview which you can get via referrals. The interview is all leetcode for interns and new grads. I have interviewed at FAANGS and work at one.
qbasic_forever
Everything changed last year, those companies are in layoffs and have greatly tightened hiring practices. HR is much more strictly filtering and dialing back where they recruit.
probablynish
Speaking from very recent experience, referrals are by no means enough to get an interview. I found they helped but I think school name (if you go to a top 5 or so) + quality of projects/past experience are also very important.
moffkalast
Aside from the paycheck, is working for FAANG really something people still want? The workplace politics sound dreadfully toxic there.
qbasic_forever
There are some problems like highly distributed computing that you really can't work on anywhere else. No other company is dealing with data on a scale like Google, Amazon, etc. It is a fascinating problem space that's still relatively young and being figured out by the people working on it.
jbirer
More social butterflies are needed in CS, to bridge the gaps.
Waterluvian
I think this is a perception issue on your part. You’ve got what appears to be a misguided idea of what a “correct” programmer is.

There’s a ton of programmers that don’t tinker on their own time. Especially in university. Socializing and being a healthy, well-rounded human is probably a more valuable use of his time.

WoodenChair
I’m a college CS teacher. I would say if he were not doing well in his classes, then it might be a red flag. If it’s not an academic interest, a talent, nor a hobby, then it’s not a good fit. But since he is doing well, let him be, unless you talk to him and find out he’s doing it for the wrong reasons.
ShamelessC
I had undiagnosed bipolar in college. I love coding, but people like you were always there to discourage me because I didn't have coder parents or whatever. Really messed with my confidence. Food for thought.
xordon
I'm confused by your reply. Did you reply to the wrong comment?
eaurouge
Software development is just one discipline in CS. This is probably an indication that he doesn’t enjoy writing software, which is fine. What does he like in CS? Which courses did he enjoy? Maybe he can get an internship, take courses, or go to grad school, to develop that interest.
iLoveOncall
> my thought is for him to change majors if tinkering doesn't come naturally

I wouldn't worry about that. Not everyone that studies CS loves programming, a lot do it because it's a way to have a good career, and that's fine.

> He had a few classes in js and C++ and did very well, but its not something he continues to do on his own.

You have to give a bit more details about how much he writes code and his general situation (which year, classes, etc.).

One thing that is a guarantee, is that people that do their own projects on top of school and get internships will be light-years ahead of someone that does neither, in terms of skills.

From my personal experience, I did a class with people in their last semesters that were literally unable to write any code beyond the basic exercices they had seen in class. They had basically never written and ran an actual project, and it was obvious that they wouldn't have a good time getting a job.

b2btech
Having a CS degree, doesn't mean you have to code. Some of the best product managers or designers I've worked with have a CS background.

Also change to what? Granted I went to a top school, but I remember people with engineering or CS degrees even getting finance jobs, etc... over other majors.

topkai22
If he’s happy and successful, I think he’s fine. In fact, perhaps better then fine.

Plenty of new CS grads go straight into Product/Program Management, and there are plenty of other roles such as consulting and sales that really value being able to combine people skills with technical skills. Having been in that world, the right combo of people skills and technical knowledge is both hard to find and remunerative.

madrox
There's a lot here to unpack, but I don't believe this is a red flag. CS is not a "gimme" major. If he's continuing to pursue it and the college isn't weeding him out, then he's clearly doing alright and has enough enthusiasm for the major. Let him continue.

On a more personal note, I don't believe this is any of your business. Your son is a grown adult. Perhaps he's getting a degree on your dime, but he needs to make his own choices in his education, and you aren't living his experience. You're very focused on "tinkering" as a tell for whether he's in the right degree, but only he can know if he's happy in his major.

My wife had a father who was very involved in her choice of majors, and it left her with anxiety and a sense that her college years were wasted. She was left feeling like getting his approval was more important than reasoning through her own decisions. The best thing you can probably do for him long term is let him make decisions, even if you think they're wrong.

deltree7
Both Indian and Chinese kids continue to excel in every industry, despite heavy involvement from parents. (and happy)

OTOH, I've seen many White students raised by liberal parents with too much student debt (and depressed).

So, unless there is data to prove that "letting 18 years old to make their own life changing decisions" on their own, we need to stop this overly progressive method.

strangattractor
And sometimes heavy involvement with a Therapist later as an adult.
david38
It’s a lot better to be wealthy and pay a few grand a year for therapy than to be always broke and unemployed.
tluyben2
Depends what the therapy is for I think. There are mental struggles worse than broke and unemployed for some, even with a lot of money.

Parents should encourage, not force imho.

superdeeda
This does not check out. Some of the happiest people I know are also some of the poorest people I know. And some of the unhappiest people I know are also some of the wealthiest people I know.
xupybd
It's a mixed bag. My Asian wife had heavy involvement from her parents. For her I think it worked well. For her brother not so much.

I think it's a matter of degree. Many in the west could have more involvement in their children's education and see better outcomes. Many outside the west could give their children a little more freedom and see better outcomes. Neither is perfect.

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peruvian
> (and happy)

Lol, ask most South Asian Americans or Asian Americans how they feel about their parents.

_448
Here is a song from a popular Hindi movie that tackles this subject (this movie was a hit even in China): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbCRtrrMvSw

There is tremendous pressure on students from both parents and society. This is because of the competition. The population is so huge, the infrastructure bad and opportunities far less. So it becomes a rat's race.

enlyth
Thank you so much for saying this. My parents were very involved in my choice of education, I was indirectly pressured to go to medical school, which ended up with me dropping out because I was never the type of person to sit down for days on end and memorize fat stacks of Latin anatomy books.

I eventually became a software developer, and it took years of catching up and self education alongside working shitty jobs.

bloppe
Maybe OP is just thinking of bringing it up for their child to reflect, not apply pressure. It's unclear.
poulpy123
I disagree with you on the general but agree on the specific here. I think parents need to be reasonably involved with their children even when they are students, but here the child seems to do well so there is no reason to worry
cweagans
> I think parents need to be reasonably involved with their children even when they are students, but here the child seems to do well so there is no reason to worry

OP is talking about a full grown adult. Not a child.

jhanschoo
Indeed, the adult child of the parent. The word child in English can refer to a very young person, but also commonly refers to the progeny of a person, as in the comment you were responding to, where child was used in reference to the parent that was also referred to in the comment.
poulpy123
English is not my native language, what word should I have used ?
wilg
It's not an incorrect word, but it can be possibly misconstrued as being infantilizing, because "child" somewhat implies a young person. But I can't think of a better word!

Perhaps it could have been more a bit more tactful to reword to avoid saying "child", like saying "your son is doing well" in this case.

Symbiote
Son or daughter avoids the possibility of infantalizing an adult child.
kbrannigan
An adult child is still the kid of her parents.
Symbiote
Without further context, "his child was in an accident" suggests a child of ~1-12/16/18. (Younger than ~1 and we should say "baby".)

"His son was in an accident" could equally refer to an adult.

wilg
That’s what I said. Unfortunate that there is no obvious way to make it gender neutral.
smegsicle
saying 'his child' wouldn't imply child-age as much as 'the child' does
xboxnolifes
To a parent, they will always be their child.
derstander
> OP is talking about a full grown adult. Not a child.

This is an interesting tangent to me. What makes a full grown adult? Is it being able to drive a car? Being able to serve in the military? Being able to drink? Vote? In the state where I grew up, these were all different ages.

And then there’s the scientific notion of when the brain is “finished” developing and maturing in the mid- to late-20s.

cweagans
In the context of the original ask, I would say "legally allowed to make their own gd decisions about what to study". No idea why OP feels the need to insert himself into that process.
derstander
That's fair, but certainly not my definition of a full grown adult.
kazinator
Johnny, your Algorithms 360 professor is telling me you're falling behind, but I see you're studying nothing but Databases 413, in which you had 97% in the midterm.

Maybe we have to reprioritize your focus.

Sigh, you know, it's the same old story like back in kindergarten.

Symbiote
I was very pleased when my parents wrote to my tutor, but she replied saying the Data Protection Act (predecessor to the GDPR) did not permit her to discuss anything.
madrox
I tend to agree with you. Hard to unpack all this nuance in an HN comment. I've found that there's a middle ground between "making" a child do something and being involved in their life.
superdeeda
Posting on forums about whether your adult child is tinkering or not is probably past that middle ground, to be honest.
kazinator
I would say the CS that I remember wasn't a gimme major; not sure about nowadays.
mock-possum
Agreed, this reminds me a lot of the "if you're a REAL programmer you'll have software-related side projects" line of thought - it's like, no, I do my REAL programming professionally, I spend my free time doing whatever I want. Just because I enjoy programming doesn't mean I spend every waking second writing code.
astura
I started college more than 20 years ago. I had an internship during school and I've been a professional software engineer since I graduated. I get nothing but great performance reviews and I've naturally risen to leadership/mentoring position in every job I've ever had.

I've never "tinkered" or written code outside school or work. Ever. Not before college, nor after.

It's also incredibly weird you're complaining your son is socializing. Socializing is normal and healthy, spending all your free time working is not.

agentwiggles
It's definitely _helpful_ to a young dev if they have a passion for what they do, and it's a trait that would serve them well as they grow their skills. But it's also not a requirement. It might just be the case that his workload from classes takes up enough energy that he's not interested in coding in his spare time.

I'm a firm believer that it's not a requirement for people to enjoy the thing they do for work so much that they want to do it in their spare time. Do people who frame houses build frames for fun off the clock? Do garbagemen go around the neighborhood emptying cans just for the hell of it? No, and no one thinks that's weird.

If he's doing well in his classes, he's probably just fine. I didn't start programming on the side until well after I started my actual career. To me in college, it would have been like doing math in my spare time - programming was homework, not something I did for fun.

One other comment I'll make is that when I was in school I did not yet have the skills I'd have needed to build satisfying side projects. I was learning the basics of syntax and logic, wrapping my head around the concepts behind coding. It wasn't until I was further along in my career that I had enough experience to actually build anything I wanted to build. I found my mid-level programming classes pretty difficult too, and definitely wasn't interested in further "punishment" in my free time!

tl;dr - I don't think you have anything to worry about. If your son is doing well in his classes, that's good. Let him enjoy his hobbies and social life.

automatom
People don’t always get a job in what they major in. If he’s doing well and continues to do well he should complete his degree, he may not use much of it but it will set him up with the ability to learn and solve problems that other majors may not emphasize.
metadat
He can always go to graduate school and become an attorney, underwater basket weaver, or whatever he wants. For many folks, CS is only the beginning and if they don't enjoy the work they'll naturally move on to something else.
wfleming
I don’t think tinkering outside work/class is required to be a good programmer. Nobody rags on accountants for not fiddling with spreadsheets as a hobby. I think the frequent expectation in tech that programmers live & breath code all the time is actually pretty unhealthy. I got into programming as a hobby, but the longer I’ve been a professional at it the less I do in my free time because I just don’t think it’s mentally healthy to do the same thing 80 hours a week.

I do think there’s a risk, if he doesnt also pursue programming as a hobby, of being out-competed by those who do. But not to point of it not being a viable career, just maybe not being like top-of-the-heap. Which is fine, it’s a big industry, not everyone needs to be the best.

The other thing I’ll note is that programming is definitely a career that requires ongoing professional development. Tech changes, you gotta keep up with it to stay relevant to some degree. A lot of that ends up being on-the-job, but like other jobs some it inevitably isn’t.

With those caveats addressed: if he’s doing well and continues to do well, I think it’s entirely possible to have a career programming without also treating it as a hobby.

gidorah
I am an accountant. Can confirm that my clients would be unimpressed if I had learned the trade by tinkering on accounts.

Coding seems to be a minority career where there is expected to have an extracurricular interest in it.

dns_snek
I don't think tinkering outside work/class throughout your life is required to be a good programmer, but it teaches you extremely valuable skills early on, such as setting goals and working to achieve them, breaking problems down into manageable pieces. You will encounter various issues of all kinds and learn how to look for solutions online. You also learn how to find and use documentation, you'll probably encounter industry-standard tools such as Git, learn the basics of Unix-like systems and a lot more, depending on what you're tinkering with.

I wouldn't expect someone who's 35 with 10 years of professional experience to tinker outside of work, but I'd raise an eyebrow at someone looking for a programming job straight out of college who doesn't have a single side project to share, no matter how small or insignificant.

To me that says that they don't enjoy programming, it would be like hiring a mechanic who's never worked on their own car. Programming can be hard and stressful so you need to enjoy it to persevere through problems that leave you scratching your head, otherwise you'll quickly burn out and be out looking for another job.

I'm not advocating for people to sit in a dark room 12 hours a day and grind through Leetcode problems, or to spend all of their free time programming to prove themselves and "get ahead of the competition". However I've never met a programmer who's never showed interest in tinkering at any stage of their life.

wrycoder
I know electrical/electronic engineers that don't know how to solder (which is how things were done in their day) and can't actually construct physical circuits. Hell, one of them is an IEEE Fellow.
Verdex
It might have been a red flag 20 years ago, but the software engineering space has really opened up a bunch. I know plenty of engineers who only code at work and they range from okay to excellent.

Coding as a hobby doesn't guarantee you'll be a quality engineer and not coding as a hobby doesn't preclude it.

The absolute best in any domain will normally involve living and breathing your profession. The difference now is that the hyper majority of software projects do not require anywhere near absolute best in technical ability.

Honestly, ability to socialize gets you further than technical ability nine times out of ten. And in the one in ten where you need the technical chops then being able to socialize means you can find and organize the talent you require.

jstx1
> my thought is for him to change majors

To something else that he won't tinker with either, and in which he doesn't have a track record of doing well like he does in CS?

Awelton
The part where you actually sit down and type in code isn't the part that is fun for me anyway. I like solving problems and the problem needs to be solved before you know what code to write, so the fun part is over before I even open an editor. Maybe he likes programming but just doesn't like typing code. If he seems happy and is paying enough attention to it to do well in class then I wouldn't worry too much about it.