This is thanks to the absurd guidance by the govt. to only give tax break Model Y like vehicles if they are under $55K. (Personally,this hurts as I bought a MY in December)
There is an argument for it: the best technologies start out expensive and even kind of crappy and only reach the people who really want (or need, in B2B) it. Then the important features get shaken out, and as mfg comes down the learning curve the production cost drops and the price does too (to build share).
So if you can increase the number of people who participate in the early stage the technology will come down the learning curve faster, which is good for everyone (except the legacy producers, in the case of a replacement technology). In other words society can get a lot of leverage from the subsidy.
Of course that's the best case, and there are opportunities for regulatory capture etc.
I bought my first electric car around 2000 or 1999. No subsidies back then and the product was crappy. Tesla started selling subsidized cars that were adequate to enthusiasts, what, a decade later. The environment was different: not just the subsidies but technological infrastructure. You had to put up with the limitations of Tesla, but it was a viable product.
Now there are many more manufacturers of electric cars, mostly better than T. So T has to scramble (if they can, which I doubt, but whatever). So this case is a net positive, IMHO.
The fossil fuel industry propered due to extensive subsidies, and that was also a very good thing (among other things it cleaned up cities and saved the whales). But they should have been withdrawn long ago. That is an extreme example of regulatory capture.
You're misunderstanding the purpose of the policy. It's not to help out car purchasers, but to shift consumption towards EVs.
As somebody who cares a lot about the damage that ICEs do, locally and globally, it's enormously frustrating how many people care more about obsessive hatred towards the rich than they care about the planet burning.
Sure, if they go into someone's garage as part of a collection, that's carbon positive (due to all the emissions to manufacture it and the lack of savings as it sits in a garage). Emissions are only potentially saved if it's frequently used and offsets an ICE vehicle that would have been used otherwise.
Sometimes I feel like people really overestimate the number of "rich people" and also attribute cartoonish behavior to them.
I highly doubt the average Tesla owner (or luxury EV car, for that matter) is 1) so rich they buy it as a "collectible" and/or 2) don't drive it enough to justify subsidy
That wasn't really the question though was it? The question was, is there a reason why rich people might be less desirable subsidy targets than other people. I have known several wealthy people with car collections, not like Jay Leno style collections but collections nonetheless.
OK, sure, but it’s sort of derailing the discussion by focusing on this absurd hypothetical that we have no reason to think is true. The context is a $7500 tax cut with an income cap. Does it seem likely that removing that cap would cause a meaningful number rich people to sequester their EVs. Also, even if they did, it still helps build out the infrastructure for EV manufacturing.
You asked a question and I responded to it. If you didn't like the direction that took the conversation, I understand that, I don't think the conversation went in a good direction either. But I don't think it's fair to put the responsibility for that all on me, if you wanted to take the conversation in a certain direction, you could've either declined to respond to my comment, or indicated in your response what it was you wanted to discuss.
As it was, you engaged with the premise in a dismissive way, and then it became a conversation about dismissing the premise. You had these criticisms about how it still builds EV capacity and such, but you didn't express those, you just said, "no."
I didn't hide my criticism – the main issue with your answer was that there is no reason to think what you mentioned was a real or relevant problem! My first reply was to say this. I responded to your claim and explained why it didn't seem like a good answer.
I apologize if I was unclear, I didn't mean to say you hid your criticism, but that if you wanted to expand the conversation instead of contract it to a topic you found unsuitable, you could've expressed yourself differently, eg, by saying, "I don't see a reason to believe that, but even if that were true, wouldn't it still build capacity?"
You're free to express whatever however, but you expressed dissatisfaction with how the conversation went, so I was just offering my perspective on how that came to pass.
The subsidy's goal is not to make the recipient's life better, but to shift consumption decisions from ICEs to EVs. The theory is that ICE/EV cost comparison is skewed by the substantial extra negative externalities of the former.
This has nothing to do with how much is in the purchaser's wallet, and shifts consumption back to ICEs on the margin.
The article seems US focused. Last week they cut prices in China, South Korea, Japan and today also in Europe. In case of Germany: Model 3 50.000 -> 44.000, Model Y 54.000 -> 45.000 Euro
Seems like inflection point has been hit with tesla and EV industry. I remember not even that long ago tesla would try to drive sales by increasing prices and telling people to order before higher price goes into effect.
We are significantly more supply constrained in the production of current EV batteries than an ICE engine due to the rare earth minerals + Lithium involved. Unless there is a revolution in EV battery tech that reduces this reliance, the supply will never meet the demand of a 100% conversion of ICE to EV.
As far as I can tell, we have 10-100x more Lithium on earth compared to what we would need for 100% EV at current tech. And who knows what future tech will bring.
"ICE engine due to the rare earth minerals + Lithium involved."
AFAIK, there are absolutely no rare earth minerals in lithium batteries used in vehicles. Perhaps I'm wrong?
For the reference, here are all of the rare earth metals:
Lanthanum: symbol Ln, atomic number 57
Cerium: symbol Ce, atomic number 58
Praseodymium: symbol Pr, atomic number 59
Neodymium: symbol Nd, atomic number 60
Promethium: symbol Pm, atomic number 61
Samarium: symbol Sm, atomic number 62
Europium: symbol Eu, atomic number 63
Gadolinium: symbol Gd, atomic number 64
Terbium: symbol Tb, atomic number 65
Dysprosium: symbol Dy, atomic number 66
Holmium: symbol Ho, atomic number 67
Erbium: symbol Er, atomic number 68
Thulium: symbol Tm, atomic number 69
Ytterbium: symbol Yb, atomic number 70
Lutetium: symbol Lu, atomic number 71
Scarcity is one thing, but it seems that they tend to be a bit more upmarket than comparable cars. Hopefully we'll see many more EVs like the sub-30k Chevy Bolt.
Setting aside the usual Tesla/Elon discussions, I think it’s good for the auto market for prices to be able to change more dynamically. Especially when they are lowered. It’s better than the paradigm of having an inflexible sticker price and leaving it to dealers to de facto adjust then based on unpleasant negotiations and add-one.
I wonder how much of the drop is just due to Elon's public persona in the past 2 years. He's really embraced the billionaire villain arc.
In my personal bubble of young friends who are right around the age to buy their first EVs, Teslas are kind of cringey to own just because of Elon. Which sucks because Teslas do provide some good value still, especially with the supercharging network.
I cancelled my Model 3 order a few years ago because Elon was such a tool. I don't remember exactly what he did, but it was something where I thought, I don't want people to think of that when they see me in my car.
Yes? We are talking about luxury automobiles. There is a component of practical utility in these things, but most of the dollars are allocated to something more akin to fashion, which is expressive. It doesn't make sense to call out a fashion decision as "petty". You could just wear a Dickie's janitor jumpsuit to work, but you don't: you pay some extra amount of money, expressively, to signal something different.
I drive an ICE Audi. I like the car, and it's zippy and smooth and fun to drive, but I'm not going to pretend there isn't an huge element of fashion to it. If Audi decided to lean into Nazism, it wouldn't be petty of me to ditch the Audi, just like I wouldn't wear a Fred Perry shirt.
If you think about it, the car you drive is one of the stronger social signals you send in American society.
I hope you do this with every product, you should never use Amazon because they treat their workers bad, don’t use google for search because they gave up their “don’t be evil” tagline, and don’t use Apple products either because they use cobalt in their products
Meh, a person has to pick their battles. If you think Amazon is a worse company than Tesla, by all means, boycott Amazon, and feel free to tell us why.
The thing that always bothered me about Tesla fans was that it was less a car purchase for them and more about cultural capital and signaling to their extended peer group. The South Park episode about hybrid cars creating a "smug" problem comes to mind. I don't care who or what team designed my car, just that it's well designed and works.
Now that Elon is suddenly "uncool" with the never-grew-up after highschool crowd, a significant number of people who bought Teslas suddenly feel cringe. It's fun to watch this kind of idiocy play out and come full circle. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
As if these fans really know who Elon is as a person anyways. ProTip: if you haven't actually met and interacted with a person, then you really know nothing about a person beyond hearsay. What's on the screen ain't real folks.
Blows my mind. This isn't a $200 pair of shoes. These are/were seriously expensive cars.
I'm happy with the EVs my wife and I bought - unless you are familiar with them, our car don't look much different than ICE cars made by the same manufacturer.
However, I don't feel the stereotype is completely fair. Plenty of people buy Teslas because they are committed to zero emissions, and Teslas have better range and a great charging network. (and avoiding dealerships is a nice advantage as well)
But the people who are really and truly committed to owning a Tesla because of the range and charging network don't have to go bragging to all their friends about how they bought a Tesla.
If they bought the car for it's range and charge network. It's all still there pretty much same as it was, the equation hasn't changed. Nothing for these people to feel cringe about.
On a side note: the people who paid $10k up front for FSD option probably feel a lot of well deserved cringe right now. My buddy bragged over 5 years ago about the package, I bet him it wouldn't be working in 5 years, I won the bet and he feels lousy about the purchase now. A sucker is born every minute.
> As if these fans really know who Elon is as a person anyways. ProTip: if you haven't actually met and interacted with a person, then you really know nothing about a person beyond hearsay. What's on the screen ain't real folks.
You don't think Elon tweeting: "My pronouns are Prosecute/Fauci" doesn't reveal something about his personality or his values?
It's just self promotion. Influencers are just that, influencers. They influence people.
Maintaining the public face of these people is a full time job.
None of the people in the media are really like what they show us on our screens. It's all entertainment. Much of it in the service of business interests, like Elon.
Do his politics lean right? Sure why not. Does he also lean left? Probably. We're all not 1 dimensional. Getting us to "fill in the blank" and project our own ideas into their personality is how they hook you.
The public / promotional image caters the 1-D chess crowd.
The fact people let this stuff influence major purchase decisions like a car is endlessly entertaining to me.
The appeal of celebrity used to be mostly confined to teenage spheres, bored housewives, and old people. But now in the digital era having a public image has become a spectator sport, and we get emotionally caught up rooting for the team we've chosen. This is how they win people.
For the younger of you reading this, I'm letting you know it didn't use to be this way. Nobody cares much about what car you drive or why.
I think you're conflating two things - positive signaling (i.e., I want a Tesla because I want to be cool) and consumer choice (i.e., I would've bought a Tesla but I don't want to anymore because of how Elon Musk has behaved).
- Musk had Tesla praise Shanghai's covid measures and say that it "always strived to fulfil its epidemic prevention responsibilities and that it believed Shanghai's COVID-19 measures helped lay the foundation for the city's future development": https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...
It's all grubby.
> For the younger of you reading this, I'm letting you know it didn't use to be this way.
No, it's always been this way. People are the same as they ever were.
I'm not saying the messaging is coherent (heck wasn't that Trumps strategy as well). But there are many reasons that people pay attention to him and then go on to buy his products. There's no such thing as bad publicity. At the end of the day we're still here talking about him.
Tesla's current problems aren't due to Elon being on the political outs with the woke in-crowd, but the fact the rest of the auto industry has largely caught up, and that the irrational bubble of hype around his products has finally burst. Combine with high interest rates and the other financial problems most companies are facing in 2023. That's the only explanation needed.
> > At the end of the day we're still here talking about him.
By the same token the whole world was talking about Osama Bin Laden on 9/12/2001, that must have been positive for him?
In reality there is bad publicity , because although even haters know your name , it would take a 1:1 face to face meeting to turn them into supporters and you will never be able to meet everyone
The goal for Tesla has always (at least officially) been to make a cheap electric car, but when their expensive cars sold out at almost any price it made sense to keep the price high and invest in production capacity.
From what I can gather, this move is very much in line with a decade of communication from the company so I'm not convinced it's as desperate a move as many headlines insinuate.
I could be wrong of course and either way the signal to the market is "we expect growth to slow down" which is seen as a disaster in our economic system no matter why it happens.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 96.5 ms ] threadhttps://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/tesla-abbatte-listini-model-...
So if you can increase the number of people who participate in the early stage the technology will come down the learning curve faster, which is good for everyone (except the legacy producers, in the case of a replacement technology). In other words society can get a lot of leverage from the subsidy.
Of course that's the best case, and there are opportunities for regulatory capture etc.
I bought my first electric car around 2000 or 1999. No subsidies back then and the product was crappy. Tesla started selling subsidized cars that were adequate to enthusiasts, what, a decade later. The environment was different: not just the subsidies but technological infrastructure. You had to put up with the limitations of Tesla, but it was a viable product.
Now there are many more manufacturers of electric cars, mostly better than T. So T has to scramble (if they can, which I doubt, but whatever). So this case is a net positive, IMHO.
The fossil fuel industry propered due to extensive subsidies, and that was also a very good thing (among other things it cleaned up cities and saved the whales). But they should have been withdrawn long ago. That is an extreme example of regulatory capture.
As somebody who cares a lot about the damage that ICEs do, locally and globally, it's enormously frustrating how many people care more about obsessive hatred towards the rich than they care about the planet burning.
I highly doubt the average Tesla owner (or luxury EV car, for that matter) is 1) so rich they buy it as a "collectible" and/or 2) don't drive it enough to justify subsidy
As it was, you engaged with the premise in a dismissive way, and then it became a conversation about dismissing the premise. You had these criticisms about how it still builds EV capacity and such, but you didn't express those, you just said, "no."
It takes two to tango.
You're free to express whatever however, but you expressed dissatisfaction with how the conversation went, so I was just offering my perspective on how that came to pass.
This has nothing to do with how much is in the purchaser's wallet, and shifts consumption back to ICEs on the margin.
Still a ways to go it seems.
https://energyx.com/blog/will-we-run-out-of-lithium/
AFAIK, there are absolutely no rare earth minerals in lithium batteries used in vehicles. Perhaps I'm wrong?
For the reference, here are all of the rare earth metals:
Most big box stores will honour price changes within x days of your purchase to alleviate this.
In my personal bubble of young friends who are right around the age to buy their first EVs, Teslas are kind of cringey to own just because of Elon. Which sucks because Teslas do provide some good value still, especially with the supercharging network.
I drive an ICE Audi. I like the car, and it's zippy and smooth and fun to drive, but I'm not going to pretend there isn't an huge element of fashion to it. If Audi decided to lean into Nazism, it wouldn't be petty of me to ditch the Audi, just like I wouldn't wear a Fred Perry shirt.
If you think about it, the car you drive is one of the stronger social signals you send in American society.
Tesla just became one of the best selling cars in Europe (in Nov).
The new Harry Potter game just became one of the highest selling games on steam (and its not even out).
A lot of things that seem like a "big deal" online, don't even hit the radar of most people.
Now that Elon is suddenly "uncool" with the never-grew-up after highschool crowd, a significant number of people who bought Teslas suddenly feel cringe. It's fun to watch this kind of idiocy play out and come full circle. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
As if these fans really know who Elon is as a person anyways. ProTip: if you haven't actually met and interacted with a person, then you really know nothing about a person beyond hearsay. What's on the screen ain't real folks.
Blows my mind. This isn't a $200 pair of shoes. These are/were seriously expensive cars.
However, I don't feel the stereotype is completely fair. Plenty of people buy Teslas because they are committed to zero emissions, and Teslas have better range and a great charging network. (and avoiding dealerships is a nice advantage as well)
But the people who are really and truly committed to owning a Tesla because of the range and charging network don't have to go bragging to all their friends about how they bought a Tesla.
If they bought the car for it's range and charge network. It's all still there pretty much same as it was, the equation hasn't changed. Nothing for these people to feel cringe about.
On a side note: the people who paid $10k up front for FSD option probably feel a lot of well deserved cringe right now. My buddy bragged over 5 years ago about the package, I bet him it wouldn't be working in 5 years, I won the bet and he feels lousy about the purchase now. A sucker is born every minute.
You don't think Elon tweeting: "My pronouns are Prosecute/Fauci" doesn't reveal something about his personality or his values?
Maintaining the public face of these people is a full time job.
None of the people in the media are really like what they show us on our screens. It's all entertainment. Much of it in the service of business interests, like Elon. Do his politics lean right? Sure why not. Does he also lean left? Probably. We're all not 1 dimensional. Getting us to "fill in the blank" and project our own ideas into their personality is how they hook you.
The public / promotional image caters the 1-D chess crowd.
The fact people let this stuff influence major purchase decisions like a car is endlessly entertaining to me.
The appeal of celebrity used to be mostly confined to teenage spheres, bored housewives, and old people. But now in the digital era having a public image has become a spectator sport, and we get emotionally caught up rooting for the team we've chosen. This is how they win people.
For the younger of you reading this, I'm letting you know it didn't use to be this way. Nobody cares much about what car you drive or why.
In this case Musk is influencing people to not buy a Tesla. Fully embracing nihilism doesn't make you sophisticated.
Here's how Musk wants you to think of him:
- Musk likes to call people paedophiles: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/15/elon-musk...
- Musk says Americans are complacent and entitled, but China rocks: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/31/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-china-ro...
- Musk continuously lies about full self-driving: https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-ne...
- Musk recommends Ukraine submit to Russia: https://futurism.com/the-byte/russia-loves-elon-musk-now
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/04/zelenskiy-hits...
- Musk recommends Taiwan submit to China: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/08/elon-musk...
- Musk wants to "Prosecute/Fauci" and now says he's going to release some kind of "Fauci Files" from Twitter: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dr-anthony-fauci-responds-to-el...
- Musk called California's covid measures "fascist": https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/29/elon-musk-slams-coronavirus-...
- Musk had Tesla praise Shanghai's covid measures and say that it "always strived to fulfil its epidemic prevention responsibilities and that it believed Shanghai's COVID-19 measures helped lay the foundation for the city's future development": https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...
It's all grubby.
> For the younger of you reading this, I'm letting you know it didn't use to be this way.
No, it's always been this way. People are the same as they ever were.
Tesla's current problems aren't due to Elon being on the political outs with the woke in-crowd, but the fact the rest of the auto industry has largely caught up, and that the irrational bubble of hype around his products has finally burst. Combine with high interest rates and the other financial problems most companies are facing in 2023. That's the only explanation needed.
By the same token the whole world was talking about Osama Bin Laden on 9/12/2001, that must have been positive for him?
In reality there is bad publicity , because although even haters know your name , it would take a 1:1 face to face meeting to turn them into supporters and you will never be able to meet everyone
From what I can gather, this move is very much in line with a decade of communication from the company so I'm not convinced it's as desperate a move as many headlines insinuate.
I could be wrong of course and either way the signal to the market is "we expect growth to slow down" which is seen as a disaster in our economic system no matter why it happens.