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Ask HN: Early employee salaries for startups in The Netherlands / Europe?

39 points by throwaway1 ↗ HN
I haven taken a break from my full-time job for a couple of months to develop an app prototype on the iPad for a startup in its initial phase. My break is coming to an end and we are are pretty happy with each other.

I like the work: not just coding but also (with the "server" guy, I'm the "client" guy) selecting technologies, managing features / the project, etc.

And they seem to like me and what I, together with the other guy, have accomplished the last two months.

Now, I know my weak point is salary negotiations. There have been a couple of posts about this the last weeks but I also like to have some indications of salaries for the region I live in: De Randstad in The Netherlands.

I'll be monitoring this thread and will answer any questions people will have.

31 comments

[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 80.4 ms ] thread
davedx
Could you give a bit more information about your job title and experience? Also, what sector are you targeting? I've noticed there's lots of financial sector work in IT in the Randstad which can bump up your salary.
viandante
Hey, could you give some details on the financial start ups in Netherlands? Are there English websites or info around? Thanks!
corkill
I've found two great rules for going into negotiations of any kind: 1. Know exactly what you want and state it. 2. Be prepared to walk away if you don't get it.

You could also try playing equity vs salary off each other. e.g. I usually work for $6000 a month, but if you want I could work for $2000 with 30% equity. Or if you want equity more than salary, I usually work for $10,000 a month but could do it for $1000 a month and 40% equity.

Numbers above are just random. But the idea is to make the option you really want seem MUCH more attractive.

accountoftheday
30-40% equity for a paid employee ... what planet are you from?
dasil003
> ... what planet are you from?

Founding-stage planet, presumably.

If someone asked me to work for $1000 or $2000 a month and they weren't offering high double digit equity I'd laugh in their face. If the company has funding and momentum then I'd want market salaries which is an order of magnitude higher. If it's early stage then it depends on what each person is bringing to the table. An experienced entrepreneur with a relatively inexperienced engineer should not give that much equity, but for the inverse 30-40% is not unreasonable. If you think this person has the chops to make the product a reality then put an appropriate vesting clause with cliff and do it.

At the end of the day it's about ROI, not about bogus conventions on how much "employees" should get.

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JAVagueArgument
I think geographical location makes no difference, because If it were me I would ask them for what I was currently on. Not take a pay cut, but not expect an increase either.

With the lack of security in a start up I might also ask for something in my contract which meant if the product/company were successful I would get recognition (financial or otherwise) in relation to my contribution.

alexchamberlain
I can't speak from experience, but how about asking them to match your current salary and a equity share to account for the risk?
sgalonska
I can tell you how it is in Berlin, Germany. And this is the cheapest city in Europe. Juniors start at around 40k, seniors about 50k anual salary.
drodil
In Finland these numbers are much lower for Juniors. Juniors start around 30-35k. Senior salary is about the same 50k but of course depending what you do and how hard you are to replace ;)
roel_v
Please state clearly if you are talking about gross or net, and if net, what is included (e.g. in .nl you still have to pay health care insurance yourself).
[dead] eurohacker
yes , if salary number does not say if its gross or net , its basicly a useless number
drodil
Gross. Health care included + bonuses.
jpatte
In Paris, junior CS engineers usually start at 35k (gross), but it's not too hard to negotiate up to 45k after 2 or 3 years of experience. Wages are usually lower in the rest of France.
ido 

    Juniors start at around 40k, seniors about 50k 
    annual salary.
40k/12 = 3333 euros per month? Or are you using a different calculation?
jpatte
Most likeky 40k/13 = 3076 euros per month + an extra "bonus" month each year. Which should give about 2000~2500 euros net per month (depending on the local taxes) + an equivalent annual bonus.
ido
40k euro/year would still be a (slightly) above average salary for a beginner programmer in Vienna, which is significantly wealthier than Berlin, so it still sounds a bit optimistic to me.
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throwaway1
Thanks for the info and the replies it has spawned.
mapleoin
And this is the cheapest city in Europe.

Western Europe.

tomh-
Based on your very limited background information: 2500-5000 euro/month excl bonus and other benefits
micheljansen
It's rather hard to say and it really depends on the company and your expertise, but expect from €2500 and up (depending on other benefits) for a starter position fresh out of college/university. In the Randstad, I would try to get closer to €3000 out of it, as the cost of living is rather high. Good luck and veel plezier in Nederland ;)
wsc981
As a 30 year old iOS developer working in Rotterdam I earn about 43000 annually with a 40 hour work week. I do believe a should be able to get a bit more, as iOS developers seem quite rare in the Netherlands and I believe lots of companies are looking for good iOS developers. I should explain I'm not working in a startup - I would guess in a startup people would generally be paid worse.

If you understand Dutch, perhaps a good forum to get a better idea what would be an appropriate salary, you should check out the "Werk & Inkomen" sub forum of the Dutch technology website Tweakers.net.

See: http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/1446515/la...

throwaway1
Thanks for the Tweakers link. I had forgotten about that.
throwaway1
Thanks for the comments so far. I should have said (but can't edit that anymore) that I'm also interested in what would be a reasonable percentage of equity to suggest at a meeting.

To expand a little:

- I'm dutch

- I don't have to move

- I have got a wife, kids and a mortgage

- I've got about 15 - 20 years of experience depending on how you look at it. Starting with: 68000 assembler, C, C++, Java, JavaScript, web front-end and back-end, Lisp and now iOS although I'm just getting up to speed with the latter. I've got Open Source projects on GitHub, a blog I post technical things to a couple of times per year. I'm pretty up-to-date on technical things: call me an average HN reader.

I might be giving away too much for a throwaway account now.

accountoftheday
don't mention wife/kids/mortgage. it is a negative for startup employment because you are bound to be the first to bail (whether by risk aversion or necessity) should things ever get tough.
throwaway1
You have a good point except in my case they are already aware of it since I've already been working for them for two months (and they even knew before that time).
herval
I actually see it the other way around: if you have wife/kids/bills to pay, you're probably the LAST to jump ship, as you actually NEED the money
tluyben2
Here are some really nice jobs; http://forum.nedlinux.nl/viewforum.php?id=14 When friends of mine are job hunting they usually do it here because you know you are going to get a solid tech job for a good ("markt conform" or above) salary.

Edit:

Interesting projects http://forum.nedlinux.nl/viewtopic.php?id=31844 (at least to me). And as far as I have seen, Dutch companies don't really care if you finished any education; usual text is 'HBO of WO denkniveau' (has to reason on college level, roughly translated).

Michiel
Have you checked www.intermediair.nl/salariskompas?