Just realized that the trackpoint on my laptop is completely worn smooth. I've been using Thinkpads for 25 years, I doubt I could switch to anything else. First thing I do when getting a new laptop is to unplug the ribbon cable going to the touchpad. Can't accidently enable it when it's unplugged!
Those feel great hen they're brand new but they very quickly fill with debris. Even if you clean them regularly it doesn't take long to wear them smooth. The newer dimpled ones provide a much more consistent and durable experience.
Absolutely. That rubber is a little narrower and a little higher, and more grippy, making it a lot more easier to manipulate.
That trackpoint + the good old thinkpad keyboard were, to me, the best experience ever. But thinkpad were always too hot, too big, and then they gave up on that amazing keyboard.
Honestly, didn't really find the ergonomics of putting significant lateral force on my fingers. My fingers didn't feel like it was well constrained with lateral force applied to it.
I used a TrackPoint for years and I absolutely believe that I damaged the big joint in my index finger from the required lateral force of that input method.
you may be should have adjusted the sensitivity. only the slightest touch should get the cursor moving. and quick snaps across the screen are done in a fraction of a second, in my experience.
trackpad people seem to love this process, which I have never understood:
put finger down on trackpad.
move finger.
lift finger from trackpad.
move finger.
put finger down on trackpad.
move finger more slowly to get some precision.
lift finger from trackpad.
tap trackpad once followed by tap and hold.
move finger to edge of trackpad to very slowly continue to drag selection marker.
> trackpad people seem to love this process, which I have never understood
I mean... Right back at you: you should have adjusted the sensitivity :P
The trackpads on my laptops are set so that a single moderately quick swipe across the surface is more than enough to cover an entire 24inch 4k monitor's worth of movement.
And no one on a modern trackpad (that I know of... I'm mid 30s) uses the "tap, tap again to hold" pattern. They click the button of the trackpad with a thumb (hold) and navigate using a finger while the button is held. It's mid 2020s, every trackpad shipped supports multipoint input.
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That said - a traditional mouse is still the hard winner in this category. No question. But I'd take mouse -> trackball -> trackpad -> trackpoint. My hands are large and the positioning of the nub is incredibly awkward and uncomfortable to use for any extended duration without moving my hands just like for a trackpad, and the nub doesn't allow real multipoint input or navigational gestures.
> My hands are large and the positioning of the nub is incredibly awkward and uncomfortable to use for any extended duration without moving my hands just like for a trackpad, and the nub doesn't allow real multipoint input or navigational gestures.
I just tried putting the sensitivity on my trackpoint to max, and the cursor literally doesn't move if I swipe my finger across the trackpoint. I have to actively apply downward force for the trackpoint to register. When I use an Apple touchpad, I only ever have to lift my finger if I exhaust the pad's surface area, and the force required to click is lower than what is required to activate the trackpoint.
that is a garbage trackpoint, then. Absolute rubbish. if I turn sensitivity way up on my old IBM A31p and blow through a straw onto the side of the trackpoint, the cursor moves, albeit very slowly.
Back in the day, I would return the entire laptop because of a rubbish trackpoint if it were an IBM built ThinkPad.
I find that trackpoints tend to have low default sensitivities, which require a lot of force to use.
At least for me, maxing out the trackpoint sensitivity on my X1 Yoga results a noticeable decrease in the amount of force required & didn't have an impact on accuracy.
Typing this on a Tex Shinobi, I can't recommend this keyboard enough.
Its Trackpoint is even better than a Thinkpad one. It's the original module with 2 improvements: the ability to adjust the nipple sensitivity from the keyboard and the large buttons which are actually full-blown keys with mechanical switches.
It's also a very nice keyboard on its own. The keycap shape is unique and very nice to the touch, once you get used to it.
I can even place the Shinobi directly on top of my Thinkpad's (X1C6) built-in keyboard so that I don't have to use the latter unless I'm traveling (and unwilling to bring the Shinobi along).
I have the Shinobi as well. It is my keyboard dream come true: I always wished that somebody (ideally not Lenovo) would make an external Thinkpad keyboard with physical switches. And then Tex did exactly that.
Now some laptop project (perhaps Framework?) just has to team up with Tex to make a real ThinkPad alternative.
> If I can smash a trackpoint onto a mechanical keyboard I would love to.
There's precedent. :)
If I heard correctly, when the inventor went to pitch TrackPoint in a meeting at IBM, he showed up with a normal keyboard, a TrackPoint assembly, and a drill, and proceeded to retrofit a TrackPoint in front of them.
He once spontaneously offered to give me a new TrackPoint SpaceSaver II keyboard (he had a couple retail boxes of them in his office). That happened to be my dream keyboard at the time, so I knew it was $170, which seemed way too expensive a gift for a poor grad student, so I couldn't accept. :)
I loved trackpoints and was a vocal aficionado - even had one of those Model Ms that had a trackpoint built in, the black ones - until I got my first laptop that had both a trackpoint and a touchpad. I've never had anything with a trackpoint since, nor wanted.
I don't think that trackpoints are the best in every case, but they're hard to beat in situations where space is at a premium and you don't have the space to properly operate a trackpad or mouse (e.g. airliner seats). So personally, I find them of more value in an ultraportable than I do something bigger and more performance-oriented.
They're also pretty great for controlling a computer from the couch, way way better than the horrifically bad trackpads found in most keyboards made for entertainment center usage. For this reason I have a ThinkPad Keyboard II hooked up to my living room PC, and as a bonus the keyboard's switch between Bluetooth and an RF dongle makes it easy to switch over to a PS5 with the dongle plugged in for the odd occasion where it's useful to be able to type on it.
I'd say the best part of the trackpoint is not having to move a hand away from my keyboard. I might still have a mouse connected, but 90% of the time I'll still prefer the trackpoint because of how convenient it is. Even on devices with a trackpad too, I'd primarily use the trackpoint unless I needed something like easy scrolling or quick swiping.
This isn’t something I’ve been able to judge too well, because ever since I started working as a dev over 90% of my serious typing has been docked with a mech board and trackball.
Some time in the coming months I’ll be receiving the TEX Shura[0] (and more precisely, the DIY variant[1]) I preordered a few months ago which will let me see how well a trackpoint meshes with my desk setup.
Since I don't use a trackpoint-equipped laptop anymore (couldn't resist the M1 Macbook), I've since switched to a Contour Rollermouse Red (mouse) and Kinesis Freestyle 2 (ergonomic keyboard). The mouse basically fills the same role of allowing me to keep my hands at the keyboard while also being extremely comfortable to use long-term and as precise and easy to use as any mouse.
The Shura looks really cool though, thanks. I might get one.
A company I worked at had one of the guys behind the TrackPoint come in and give a technical talk once. He was great, absolutely obsessed with building a great user experience. The amount of thought and testing that went into that little nub was incredibly impressive. I'm not surprised that people love it so much.
Touchpads have a hard time competing on user experience because they need to be physically large to work well, and that's expensive.
I had the (mis?)fortune of receiving a hand-me-down ThinkPad 10 or so years ago. Now I simply can't use a laptop for an extended period of time without a trackpoint. I always feel like my options for newer laptops are limited because of this, forever tied to Lenovo. I tried a Dell one once but it just didn't feel right.
Being right in the middle of home row is so nice. I've now even use a modifier key to make home row keys become arrows/home/end/PgUp/PgDn, so my hands never have to reach far for anything at all.
A few people here have noted problems with the amount of force needed to use the trackpoint, but I wonder if that's a problem of either settings or wear since I barely need to nudge mine to do everything I want it to do. They do seem to require significantly more pressure to use as the rubber cover wears out, otherwise your finger slips off. You might not even notice it, but do yourself a favor and get a pack of replacements for a few dollars on ebay or wherever, new ones feel so nice!
I used to care a lot more. I simply couldn't use a trackpad at first and I wasn't even thrilled with a big Alienware Windows laptop I got a number of years back. I had to have a trackpoint on a laptop. But trackpads on Macs and Chromebooks became fine for me and I didn't really care after some point. Don't even use a mouse when I'm using a laptop basically as a desktop.
1. Stop. Don't type/mouse through pain, or you could be causing permanent damage. Figure out what the problem is, maybe with the help or a doctor and/or workstation ergonomics expert.
2. If TrackPoint is involved, that's possible, but I find it's mostly a win, but the win might depend on how one uses it. I use little force, and have done it all day for 20 years, without problem. The sensitivity is adjustable. Which cap you put on it makes a big difference. There are 5+ different caps. I like the soft concave top one best. With some of the other styles of cap, especially early on (like the hard sandpaper one, and the slick Toshiba(?) one), I found I was pressing much harder, just to get a grip on it.
Cannot second this enough. I typed through the pain and couldn't use a computer for 10 months. That was very stupid of me; please be smarter.
It's worth investing time & money in a good, ergonomic typing setup. If you don't do it up front, you'll be investing a lot more time in money - in physical therapy, and buying top-of-the-line stuff because the mid tier equipment isn't good enough for you to avoid reinjury anymore.
Some things that work for me:
- Vertical mouse (Logitech MX Vertical - there are knockoffs, I haven't tried them)
- Mechanical keyboard with a good amount of travel (laptop keyboards with hardly any travel are no good for me anymore)
- Gaming mouse pad (it's like a mousepad that covers a large area)
- Pads that go over the armrests of my chair (if my arms are resting on hard plastic, it limits my circulation, which exacerbates my tendonitis)
I strongly encourage you to learn proper typing habits. I don't want to speak too authoritatively (if I'm saying anything incorrect, please correct me, and please do research this yourself - it's really important for your health & career), I'm not an expert I just know what works for me, but you shouldn't rotate your wrists, and you shouldn't have them at any sort of angle relative to your firearms; it should be straight and they should just glide over the keyboard. It's a good idea to learn how to stretch your wrists as well.
There are a litany of reasons why one’s hand may hurt. As far as non-traumatic injuries go (meaning pain that develops over a period of time as opposed to, say, a skateboarding accident), it’s usually going to be caused by inflammation of tendons (tendonitis), wearing away of bone cartilage (arthritis), or nerve impingement. Diagnosis of the first two is typically straightforward, while diagnosis and treatment of nerve impingement is more complex, reason being the nerve or nerves could be impinged in one (or more!) of several locations between the spine and hand.
I have seen many armchair orthopedic experts on Reddit, Quora and elsewhere talk about “RSI” like it’s a single disorder with a single treatment. In reality, RSI is an umbrella term for many conditions, and not just of the arms and hands. Googling “RSI” is useless. You MUST determine which RSI (if any) you have. The treatment for tendinitis is very different from the treatment for cubital or carpal tunnel syndromes. This is probably why so many people who identify as having “RSI” have been unsuccessful in finding an effective treatment. Heck, if you truly have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, surgery is THE treatment. Anything else is a band-aid. Fortunately, the surgery is quick, the recovery is quick (typically within a week for light activity), and it is usually permanent.
A few times a month my wife has what she calls a "Google patient". Her canned response is: "Your google search isn't equivalent to my medical degree." Some get it.
Yeah, but at the same time I saw 3 orthopedic surgeons and 1 neurologist and 2 of them said "carpal tunnel syndrome", one of them said "arthritis" (after saying my X-Rays didn't show any signs of arthritis), and none of them got the diagnosis right (thoracic outlet syndrome). The kicker is the one who settled on "arthritis" is a shoulder guy, the one you'd expect to at least test for TOS.
Just like there are bad engineers, the medical community has bad doctors. Perhaps "bad" is too strong a term. It might be more accurate to refer to them as "low information" or "not up to date" or "low skill" professionals.
On the engineering front, it takes work to stay up to date on the latest technologies. I have been in the field for 40 years, I know lots of people with the same time in the domain who can barely deal with a modern computer, much less design with modern FPGA's, processors and write software in a range of modern languages. People do stagnate. That's just reality.
The same is the case with doctors, or almost any profession. One plumber might be up to date with the latest advances and have great diagnostics skills while the other hits everything with a hammer.
Which hints at the other reality. I have worked with dozens of young engineers just out of school. It is interesting to see just how wide a range of skills and capabilities you get. Those who went into engineering with passion stand out because they are engaged in the field and have a real tangible sense of how things work. For lack of a better term, they were getting their hands dirty before they started university, and it shows. Others came to my desk with such low skills it was hard to conceive how they might succeed.
Doctors have to be in the same reality. We've all heard of doctors who misdiagnose people who, months or years later, through great personal effort, finally discover what was wrong and got it handled. What I have never seen is a root-cause analysis of this (well, there was a TV show years back that did some of this). That's what matters. Medicine (or engineering) will never improve if we don't have a mechanism through which we can go back and ensure some of these things happen with less frequency.
This is where I believe AI-based diagnosis will eventually become a useful tool. Not to replace doctors, but rather to present them with a range of opinions to explore. As with anything in computing, these systems will require accurate data, both medical and from the patient. And that's how we come full circle to the problems in medicine, one of which is having to work with patients who are uninformed or ill-informed from whom it is difficult to obtain accurate data for diagnostics. Not an easy problem.
While all the docs I saw were "friendly", they were all in a hurry, which is probably imposed by the hospital they work for (where applicable), but 2 of the orthopedic surgeons I saw were father and son, with their own practice. Nevertheless, each of them were incredibly late (over 30 min) seeing me. So I would suppose that greed is a component.
The son literally came into the exam room with a laptop showing my X-Rays, said I don't have arthritis, went to leave, I had to stop him and kind of press him because he didn't diagnose me with anything, then he did some test where he pressed my thumbs into their joints and asked if that hurt. It did. Then he said that I have arthritis in my thumb joints. This is the kind of sloppiness I would expect from the juniorist of junior developers, not a medical doctor who spent over a decade in school and specializes in orthopedics. Needless to say, that same maneuver does not hurt my thumbs anymore, and I brought this up when I saw his dad a couple of weeks later. He said something to the effect of "well sometimes arthritis comes and goes" and then changed the subject. The sheer arrogance (I don't think it's incompetence) in that building was astounding. So I, a 27 year old with no signs of arthritis on X-Rays, have arthritis that "comes and goes", even though I continue to work a desk job for 8 hours a day. Makes sense.
I saw a hand surgeon who said the arthritis diagnosis was wrong and couldn't explain why he made that diagnosis.
When the nerve conduction study came back normal, it was subtly suggested that the pain might be psychosomatic since I mentioned the pain went down when I started taking an SSRI.
So after being told by 3 docs it was carpal tunnel syndrome, and then the neurologist saying it wasn't, I went back to the Internet, and stumbled upon Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. It fit so perfectly, and the provocative tests for it immediately made my symptoms worse. At the follow-up with the hand surgeon, I brought this up after she said something to the effect of "well, it's not CTS so I can't help you, here's a prescription for physical therapy, good luck", she immediately said that "TOS is very rare, and it would have shown on the nerve conduction study". This is obviously false (even without the research papers I found) because performing stretches and exercises meant to treat TOS have been incredibly effective for me.
Complete shitshow. And of course I had to pay ~$1000 for all that. It's funny how we can see doctors who are either wrong or unable to come to a diagnosis, and we have to pay them anyway, but if a plumber comes to my house, says I have a bad septic tank, then proceeds to replace my kitchen faucet, obviously I am not going to pay him.
I think my issue was that I was not assertive ENOUGH with these docs, but of course I don't want to be "that guy". Kind of a lose-lose situation.
Sadly, that does happen. I know a couple of people who went through experiences similar to yours. Different ailments, same issue with incompetent/uninformed/lazy/whatever doctors.
In one case the patient had been gaining weight for a couple of years and had other issues despite eating a very restricted diet, exercising, etc. Long story short, it turned out to be a pituitary gland tumor (Cushing's syndrome). This was diagnosed at UCLA by an expert in the field. One surgery later and she was back to normal weight (half the prior weight almost) within a year and feeling healthy. The other doctors had her on a path to nothing good and potentially a short life.
Thankfully bad doctors like these aren't the norm. Yes, of course, as a patient, being informed is super important. Nobody is going to care more about you, your kids, your family than you.
The problem with google searches happens with scenarios like a patient insisting on getting Hydroxychloroquine because they found it online or heard someone recommend it.
The part that isn't visible by reading a simple one-line comment describing the interaction is the reality of dealing with patients in almost any kind of practice. I cannot properly convey the experience here. For one, I am just an observer. Here are a few points that seem to come up with some frequency during our "How was your day?" conversations:
Patients, just like doctors and engineers, are in a range between good and horrible. Some work with the doctor, follow directions, take the medicine/treatment and make progress. Others are the opposite, they keep coming back with the same issues (and often more) and, when interrogated, doctors discover they completely ignored (or worse, modified) what they where told to do. This kind of thing is truly frustrating. To put it in CS terms, imagine telling a junior developer how to fix a problem that has been compromising a codebase, only to discover, a month later, that the developer ignored your advice and decide to change variable names instead, because an article on the web said short variable names are better. Bullshit example, yet not too far from medical reality sometimes.
At the extreme are patients who are uninformed, rude, entitled and combative. It seems my wife comes home rattled once every couple of months after having to deal with a complete asshole who ruined her day.
With regards to information, yes, of course, she absolutely prefers informed patients. Why? Because those often turn out to be the good patients she can really help. The "Your google search..." comment isn't a universal statement delivered to anyone who says "I read on the web...". No, that isn't the case at all. She tells me patients do come-in who have done their homework and contribute valuable information to the process. These patients are actively engaged in the process.
There's a vast difference between being informed and engaged in what's going on and reading a few things in social media and actually thinking you know what you are talking about. People insisting on getting antibiotics for just-about everything is one example of this.
Those who receive and deserve the put-down are zero-effort, zero-knowledge patients who, after having read something on the web --which is often irrelevant or way out there-- come to the doctor absolutely convinced that is THE way to handle whatever it is might ail them. These patients are often in the combative, arrogant, rude category. The often require what my wife calls "The New York attitude" treatment. In other words, you have to forcefully (not physically, of course) assert yourself or you can't help them.
As an example, imagine someone coming in asking for a prescription to some ridiculous medicine to be protected from COVID and, at the same time, refuse to get vaccinated because they believe the government injects you with microscopic radio transmitters that track you. Yes, this is an extreme example, of course, however, it is hard for someone not dealing with dozens of patients a day to imagine the range of situations a doctor encounters on a daily basis.
Thank you for writing that down so nicely. I was imagining you meant something like this but I'm still grateful you made it explicit.
I guess the reason I'm touchy about the topic is that, given that I am not a doctor, I have much more experience with encountering idiot doctors than idiot patients. This makes my fear of being patronizingly shut down for "reading things on the internet" much more prominent.
With a strong emphasis on "occasionally". The vast majority of doctors and hospitals (the overwhelming majority) are good and medicine is too complex for most people to understand. I see how hard my wife works to keep up with the latest medicines, research, treatments and developments in her field. It's on part with what any top-level hardware or software engineer has to do on a daily basis to be informed and remain relevant. The exception is: We don't generally kill people if we make a mistake.
In other words, yes, being informed is good. Everyone should dig as deep as their education allows them to when it comes to their own medical needs. However, at the end of the day, it is impossible (and unwise) to pretend that this can substitute for a real doctor. We are talking about good doctors here, not the few at the bottom of the barrel who would have better-served society by choosing a different career.
I don't think "good doctors" and "bad doctors" is really a good framing. I think the medical system sabotages the relationship between doctor and patient and creates incentives to spend the least amount of effort on any given patient. That isn't anyone's fault but if your diagnosis is off the beaten path, and especially if it looks like a common diagnosis but isn't that one, it can be incredibly difficult to get a doctor to take you seriously. I think people reacted strongly to your comment because they felt it was emblematic of a dismissive attitude they receive from doctors - regardless of how good a doctor may be.
Same. One doctor didn't understand the previuos one prescription - that it's a combo for self-amplifying symptoms and makes no sense incomplete - I'm lucky that the other worked there for a while. No doctor found out that as a vegetarian I may be missing an enzyme (bromelain, which dissolve mucus).
To be sure, if you're experiencing pain you need to see a doctor, and explicitly this is stuff that worked for me that people might try but is not a prescription. I guess what I'm trying to do is encourage people to research ergonomics and experiment with their setup before they experience pain. If you type with bad habits & bad ergonomics for 40 hours a week, it's likely that you will end up in trouble eventually, no?
I just feel like this is a huge missing stair, not only in our industry but in life in general (I've met people who've had similar issues playing piano, using a cash register, and playing guitar), and I try not to overstate how much I know about it, but I also want to let people know it is something they should pay attention to. When the opportunity presents itself I try to give people the warning I wish I'd had.
I saw a physical therapist, an orthopedic surgeon, etc. The surgeon didn't really examine me at all, and no one per say looked too close. I guess I've just never questioned their diagnosis of tendonitis. They were surprised it took me so long to recover, but I chalked it up to being the second time I got an RSI from typing (go figure) and that I probably kept reinjuring myself despite my best efforts (there certainly was some of that).
I don't want to give specifics of my age publicly (if you'd like them please shoot me an email & I'll share then privately) but I'm on the younger side. I don't remember every symptom, but it hurt to type, my hands would fall asleep in the night if I wasn't very careful, I couldn't rotate my wrist comfortably, et cetera. My forearms were covered in adhesions.
That was a few years ago. I don't do as much as I should to take care of my hands but things are a lot better. My hands tire easier than they ought to, they're very sensitive to being impinged upon (eg I can't use the hard plastic armrests of my chair without additional cushioning), and I can't type or especially use the mouse if it's cold without pain (so I don't, I turn the heat up and wait).
I do have this memory of when I was a child, I regularly refused to hold anything when I first woke up. People would try to hand me things and I'd insist my hands felt weird and that I couldn't hold anything until they "warmed up" (figuratively). From what I remember it was similar to how my hands feel when I'm not using my armrests of when I've typed too much. I did have a terrible sleeping habit where I folded my arm under my neck like a chicken wing; maybe I did impinge a nerve in my shoulder or some other weird thing that's followed me around this whole time, I can't say for certain. That sleeping habit did start fucking me up more and more in my adulthood and I had to stop it, and I do get aches in my neck on that same side of I don't use a special pillow. I think I still have a remnant of it where I turn my head at night if my special pillow doesn't discourage it, and then I wake up with a sore neck. I got that special pillow after an incident where I somehow fucked up my back and my whole back was stiff and it was a struggle to move for a day or so.
I don't know if any of that means anything, but there you go.
It doesn't sound like tendonitis to me. I'm not a doctor, but I've spent "tens of hours" researching in this area for my own sake.
There are a lot of people out there who will tell you their "symptoms" got better when they switched to an ergonomic keyboard or a vertical mouse. My theory is that this "very gradual relief" is typically because those ergonomic peripherals subtly relieve nerve impingement going on in, say, the shoulder area. For example, a split keyboard that slopes up towards the middle achieves two things: 1) it pushes the shoulders more out of interior rotation (interior rotation causes Thoracic Outlet Syndrome) and 2) allows the forearms to not be in full pronation (though this is apparently less important as the related nerve impingement, Pronator Teres Syndrome, is linked to repeated pronation MOVEMENTS, not static pronation like you'd expect at a desk job).
I remember reading a Medium article last Summer where the author (a SWE) talked about how switching to an ergonomic keyboard helped, but it took several months to recover from "RSI". To me, it sounds like he switched to an ergonomic, split keyboard, that VERY SLOWLY (over a period of months), relieved interior rotation of the shoulders. I believe that the author would have experienced more drastic relief, sooner, if he engaged in certain stretches and exercises aimed at correcting posture/strengthening posture muscles.
I can't stress enough how important it is that you figure out WHICH RSI you are dealing with. There's A LOT of armchair/self diagnosis going on in places like /r/RSI where people A) don't know which RSI they have and just try things until something works and B) often assert they have "many" RSIs (e.g. tendonitis AND carpal tunnel syndrome AND cubital tunnel syndrome) - this is possible but unlikely. The problem with A is that the treatment for tendonitis is very different from the treatment for carpal/cubital tunnel syndromes, arthritis, radiculopathy, etc. Some on /r/RSI complain of "years of pain", were diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, but are refusing (or are perhaps unable) to get Carpal Tunnel Release surgery, which I compare to wisdom teeth removal in both commonality and risk-reward.
Finally, it seems to often take many months, or even years to get a proper diagnosis for "RSI". I recommend to people to do their own research, but do NOT rely on Google. OrthoBullets is a great website full of reliable information, especially in the area of diagnosis. It's meant for medical students, but still very readable by those with other backgrounds. NIH.gov has a lot of good info, like research papers/studies that shows things like:
- There lacks strong evidence to support the notion that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and using a computer have a causal relationship (correlation does not imply causation!)
- Nerve conduction studies (often abbreviated as NCS and EMG) often return a normal/clean result, in spite of nerve impingement, and seem to be useless particularly in early cases (e.g. the nerve related symptoms started, say, a few months ago).
For you I would be looking at Thoracic Outlet Syndrome being that you are I assume under 35 and male. Just from those two datapoints (age and gender) and the fact that your symptoms seem to be nerve-related rather than tendon-related... sounds like nerve impingement between the spine and arm. I would read up on the symptoms of Thoracic Outlet Syndrome (and related/sub-syndromes like Pec Minor Syndrome, which is sometimes considered an entirely separate condition and other times considered a sub-type of TOS).
There are tests you can do at home (some require another person) to test for all of these, and I suspect at least one will aggravate your symptoms:
- Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
- Cubital Tunnel Syndrome
- Pronator Teres Syndrome
- Thoracic Outlet Syndrome
- Arthritis (it's probably not this)
- Cervical Radiculopathy (it's probably not this, unless you are old or recently experienced trauma in that area, like a car accident)
All of these are TREATABLE, especially the first four. Ideally you don't have one of the last two, but both of those seem to typically be an "advanced age" thing. Statistically speaking, you probably have one of the first four. It is theoretically possible to have more than one of these things, but probably very unlikely (I don't have any stats handy, but I know it's uncommon).
This is funny and why Thinkpad people are so … religious.
- Vertical mouse (Logitech MX Vertical - there are knockoffs, I haven't tried them)
Or a trackpoint.
- Mechanical keyboard with a good amount of travel (laptop keyboards with hardly any travel are no good for me anymore)
Or a Thinkpad keyboard (though they have been getting shallower).
I've been addicted to Trackpoints since forever. Trackpads seem so backward to me. A trackpoint is like mind control in comparison. I'm lucky Thinkpads are generally good and I don't care for MacOS, because otherwise I'd be really stuck.
I loved the Trackpoint. Personally I can't use the Thinkpad keyboard anymore (that being the keyboard I was using when I injured myself). Once you commit to an external keyboard, you can't really use the Trackpoint anymore.
I have the ThinkPad TrackPoint Keyboard II. It's pretty good, feels … plasticky but good travel and has a Trackpoint.
However, for me I use the Thinkpad as a "controller" for a desktop, so I get two (well, three, the desktop has two) independant screens and kvm functionality via Barrier (derived from Synergy).
Maybe I'd never want to go back if I tried a mechanical (I got my partner one, but haven't touched it), but I could not go back (way back) to a mouse.
One hundred and eighty five dollars for the Tex one, ugh. I love the trackpoint to almost death but I go through thinkpad keyboards faster than average (I guess) and couldn't afford such a luxury, sadly.
Thinkpad keyboards are way better than other laptop keyboards, but it's just not in the same league as a decent mechanical one.
Which then requires a mouse (especially annoying when you're left-handed), but I only need that to click things on websites. There's nothing else I can't easily reach from the comfort of my (mechanical) keyboard. I just plug in a hub filled with HDMI/USB devices and close the lid.
I was dealing with soreness for a while, and of course it's different for everybody, but two things helped me: 1) Learning more keyboard shortcuts and terminal commands, to cut down on mouse use for a while. 2) Touch screen. Those things also helped with eyestrain headaches.
I think in the case of keyboard shortcuts, I was able to look away from the screen while typing, or at least, not focus so intently. The touch screen might be a bit more hypothetical, but I think it doesn't require as much visual acuity, so can relax my eyes a bit more.
I've read that frequently looking away from the screen, so your focus doesn't remain fixed to one position, is helpful for eyestrain. Thanks to touch typing, I can write text and even code with my eyes closed.
Of course you know how it goes... other things may have changed at the same time.
> I've read that frequently looking away from the screen, so your focus doesn't remain fixed to one position, is helpful for eyestrain. Thanks to touch typing, I can write text and even code with my eyes closed.
Interestingly, not knowing how to touch type would also mean that you frequently switch your eyes from the screen (to look at the keyboard). In fact, as someone who has learned to touch type but is still making a lot of mistakes, my eyes are much more glued to the screen than when I used to have to look at the keyboard to find my place again.
I don’t understand why it is adjustable in the first place[1]. Personally I bring it all the way to the right, or one notch below, and never touch it again. To me it is less adjustable, and more that the default value is wrong and have to be mitigated.
1: On TrackPoint tab in classic Control Panel screen, separate to mouse cursor sensitivity on the other tab. Both has different effects.
To point #1: it’s been my experience that ergonomics and orthopedics are incredibly misunderstood by the tech industry at large, and in my personal experience, orthopedic doctors are often wrong in their diagnoses.
One of many examples is the prevalence of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in the world. It’s the most-common orthopedic surgery in the US, yet its success rate is thought to be around 90%. What would cause the surgery to fail? Technically it could be a botched surgery (eg scalpel cuts the median nerve), but that’s always known at the time of surgery because duh. Rather, the ~10% failure rate is mostly made of cases where the surgery went as expected, yet the nerve impingement symptoms persisted. There’s very little out there on the notion that these patients could simply have been misdiagnosed. If you feel tingling or numbness or burning in your fingers/hand, it could be caused really at any point between the spine and the hand. Typically nerve impingement of the hand occurs in the spine, thoracic outlet, cubital tunnel, forearm, or the carpal tunnel. The symptoms are more or less the same regardless, yet Docs seem to always implicate the carpal tunnel, even though there does not exist a reliable study that shows keyboard/mouse use is a risk factor for developing CTS.
An EMG/NCS isn't necessarily going to bear fruit. Studies and anecdotal evidence both support the idea that nerve conduction tests do not rule out nerve impingement in a particular area. TOS in particular can be tricky to "truly" diagnose through diagnostic imaging.
> 1. Stop. Don't type/mouse through pain, or you could be causing permanent damage. Figure out what the problem is, maybe with the help or a doctor and/or workstation ergonomics expert.
Back twenty years ago I did just this. I was working 18 hour days. Sadly, pain was normal. The thing is, when it is your own company you can't take a couple of weeks off to sort it out.
Ultimately, I designed and fabricated my own ergonomic desks. My preference has been to use a thumb-actuated trackball. Soon after making these desks I was back to my 16 to 18 hour a day schedule and had no pain at all. Yes, it took a while for the soreness and inflammation to disappear. The point is, my wrists got better, even while working long hours.
It is crucially important to pay attention to ergonomics and learn to be relaxed. Mice, in my opinion, are terrible. It depends on the task, of course. In my case, my time is split between EDA CAD (electronics design), software development and mechanical 3D CAD. In other words, reaching for the mouse is unavoidable. In this context, the trackball has proven to be the right tool for the job. I have tried some of the fancy 3D knob technology and more. None of it really worked for me.
Here are a couple of old pictures showing the key element in the design; a dropped-down surface for the keyboard and trackball and a nice forearm support bar.
I have also used for some years a thumb-actuated trackball, which was a great improvement in comfort over a mouse.
However, more recently I have replaced it with a Wacom graphic tablet configured in mouse mode, which, at least for me, has been a huge improvement in precision, speed and comfort over any mouse, trackball, trackpoint or touchpad.
In my case it spans a range from typical office/email applications to mechanical 3D CAD, software engineering, electronics CAD, various specialized manufacturing tools/applications and graphic design software. It's varied enough that there's no way I could use a Wacom tablet (I have a few). The trackball seems to be the best common denominator for everything but running tools like Photoshop/GIMP/Corel. In that case the preference these days for us has shifted to drawing tablets with built-in displays (https://www.xp-pen.com/).
Upping the sensitivity and switching to the soft rim cap makes a huge difference. We have ThinkPads at work and I'm not surprised most of my colleagues don't like the Trackpoint with its default cap and settings; Lenovo aren't doing it and favours.
> I always feel like my options for newer laptops are limited because of this, forever tied to Lenovo.
I'm now becoming convinced that pairing a good external Trackpoint keyboard with a 2-in-1 laptop will be the way to go if you don't want to be tied to Lenovo.
But then I'd have to cart around an extra keyboard! Plus I use my laptop far too often in places where it'd be uncomfortable to do so: namely me sitting somewhere with the computer on my lap.
What made me give up the TrackPoint was.. a new Thinkpad. It has simply gotten so difficult to use with the T460s, possibly due to the high screen resolution (I had the 2560x1440 variant). Increasing the sensitivity did not feel right, and it sometimes have too much inertia (pointer keeps moving after I release the nipple mouse). I hurt my fingers trying to use it at a low sensitivity. Eventually I just gave up and switched to the touchpad for most use cases. More recently, I got another Thinkpad with a lower resolution, and it seems to be much better, but I'm no longer that accustomed to using it anymore. Maybe I should consider trying it again.
I like them even on newer ThinkPads just as much, and I've used them on an X1 Carbon with a 4K screen (I do use Linux exclusively, so maybe it's different on Windows). One thing I have noticed is that as the trackpads have gotten bigger, hitting it with your palm becomes much easier, despite any software protections against that. I generally disable the touchpad on newer models, something I never have to do on my old trusty T420s.
I agree with the grandparent and disagree with the parent. My X220's Synaptics TrackPoint is very responsive and natural, and I can get my work done (though the TrackPad is poor). My X1 Carbon Gen 7's ELAN TrackPoint randomly increases and decreases in sensitivity, I can't get used to it, and I end up using the TrackPad instead (which is decent but I still prefer a good TrackPoint).
I also agree. The whole reason a got an X1 Carbon was that I figured Lenovo couldn't screw up the trackpoint or keyboard too much. I was wrong. The trackpoint frequently meanders off on its merry way and the keyboard is unimpressive and now has some keys which don't work. Even though the screen and sound are a big step up, I'm back on the X220.
Naturally, like every device nowadays, they've traded thickness for function so it is also impressively thin. If I enjoyed using the keyboard, I would also be pleased with the battery life.
I have the same problem. For some weird reason my company-provided X13 Yoga's trackpoint just doesn't feel right. I tried adjusting it but I eventually gave up and switched to trackpad (I don't use the laptop that much anyways).
That one doesn't even have a huge screen resolution (1920x1200 I think) so I don't quite understand what's wrong. Maybe some change in parts?
I use an X220 for everyday computing, with the trackpad disabled. Before that, I used a Fujistu Lifebook P1120, which also had a trackpoint (and a touchscreen, and no trackpad). I can't use other laptops. If I can't keep using Thinkpads or the equivalent, I'll cobble something together and abandon the laptop form factor entirely.
And then be stuck in the same situation: tied to one company, albeit a different one?
But no, I still prefer the trackpoint: any trackpad, no matter how godly, still involves moving my hand from the keyboard down, back and forth, back and forth. Nothing is speedier than to move the mouse pointer around with a trackpoint.
And I would grant for certain applications a trackpad is better, like image editing where your hand is on the trackpad most of the time. But for anything involving heavy keyboard use, a trackpoint can't be beat.
There is minor variance required in the force, but I think that the people who believe it required force either had really weak fingers or did not understand you dont 'mash' it like a track pad.
I'm in the same boat, but using trackpoint + vim shortcuts for most things (including window manager, browser, and of course, vim). Works really great for day-to-day coding and browsing. If I have to do something that's easier with a lot of pointing (like making diagrams on inkscape) then I just use an actual mouse.
I had a lot of problems with the pain in the arm strings as you mentioned.
At some point I switched to slim keyboards, and to a trackball mouse. I also tried to use a magic trackpad in between but that made it worse.
Nowadays I am using the Thinkpad USB keyboard combined with a CSL vertical mouse and I don't have any string injuries anymore. I mainly chose the keyboard because it is actually one of like 3 that doesn't have batteries and doesn't have a numpad that I don't use anyways.
As a mousepad I am using an aluminium/teflon mousepad I have for like 20 years now. It is superflat and doesn't make my arms stick to it while moving.
As to your mouse movements: the thinkpad usb keyboard has an additional middle mouse key, which does exactly that. It's just so comfortable to use while browsing.
For lots of mouse movements, like in CAD tools or other mouse-heavy environments I still stick to using my vertical mouse though.
I disable the trackpad in the bios I’m so addicted. I would go to meetups in the before time and people would try use my computer and I’d have to tell them, oh yeah the trackpad is disabled… from the bios.
Also there have been times (I guess long ago) when id rub into someone with a computer with a nipple (did toshiba used to have these? Guess they didn’t call then trackpoints?) and start poking at it, and the person would say, “yeah this piece of junk has one of those” and I’d say “what? These are awesome!”
Don’t get me started on how deadly I was with a shotgun in CounterStrike on one of these in college
Toshiba laptops, now branded Dynabook and owned by Sharp/Foxconn, still have them on some models. If you want 32gb noticeably below 1000g they are literally the only option on the market (if you can find them, that configuring seems to be virtually unavailable).
Unfortunately their trackpoints come without that middle mouse button, which I liked to set to scrolling by trackpoint on my Dells.
(haven't used a laptop without trackpoint in ages but never really converted for regular pointing)
A few people here have noted problems with the amount of force needed to use the trackpoint
If that is the case, get a tighter-fitting and harder top for it. The tiniest bit of play or flex is wasted force. The actual pointing stick is remarkably sensitive.
> A few people here have noted problems with the amount of force needed to use the trackpoint, but I wonder if that's a problem of either settings or wear since I barely need to nudge mine to do everything I want it to do.
IMO which rubber nub you use is huge as well. I'm partial to the wide and concave nub, as you can simply pressure the edge and the mouse moves.
I was the same - had ThinkPads for years after my first laptop (a Toshiba) in the early 90's had a trackpoint.
The only thing that has come close to being good enough are apple trackpads. Yes, still have to remove fingers from home row, but the control is as good.
I've only ever bought one laptop in my life, a 2007 Lenovo Thinkpad right after I graduated high school. I ordered it with a touchpoint and, critically, no trackpad at all. It was glorious. Physical mouse buttons immediately under the spacebar instead of five miles away. No touchpad to accidentally brush against. No sharp trackpad edges to rub against your palm. Physical mouse buttons instead of these godawful buttonless trackpads that are ubiquitous now. My god. Just leagues and leagues better than anything manufactured today. I've considered buying a new laptop a few times, but the trackpad is mandatory today, so I just throw up my hands and stick with my desktop & phone.
Re the force - it's the settings 93.2%, and the nub preference 6.8%. Different height shape and grip of different nubs work for different people.
Otherwise agreed. I find track pads Incredibly wasteful - we've continually canibalizing the keyboard for sake of larger track pad. I bit the bullet and splurged on t25 (with traditional keyboard including home row)about 5 years ago,and it remains my daily driver.
Especially the smaller you go, including what used to be net books (12" and smaller) - track point is exactly as effective at all scales, whereas track pad and keyboard compromises become worse and worse.
P.s. For some reason even though I'm a rightey,I use track point with my left hand which lets me switch it up a bit and makes for less of a stretch. Using track point for me is effective efficient and completely automatic. Track pads, still a struggle, whether I'm using it myself or watching somebody else scroll scroll scroll :-/
The best benefit is indeed not taking hands off main keys on the keyboard to move around.
Old Toshiba Tecra's trackpoints were notorious for their drifting into some direction after they've been used for a while, some sort of sensor preference.
The ones on P and T lines of Thinkpads are totally the only way to go. I swear by mine on my old P50 workhorse, but alas, my new work laptop doesn't have one. Another challenge is not misplacing the extra nubbins that came with this back 6 years ago...
I love the idea of being able to move your mouse cursor without moving your hand off of the keyboard. I just don't think that the trackpoint was fast and accurate enough to pull it off.
I want to see someone try out a solution where each key on a keyboard gets a dedicated sensor, and you can have one hand/thumb press a magic "activate mouse" button, while the other hand basically runs across the keys just like you would use a touchpad. For bonus accuracy, you could sum/aggregate the movement of all fingers for the single pointer so that you can avoid lifting even any part of your hand.
The Blackberry Passport had a capacitive keyboard which you could swipe your fingers on to scroll without touching the screen. This was extra useful in landscape mode since it maximized vertical scrolling space. The feel of scrolling on the bumpy keys was awesome.
I don’t think that would work as well on a larger keyboard, especially mechanical ones, or ones where there is a lot of space between keys.
> I don’t think that would work as well [...] where there is a lot of space between keys.
A capacitive "touch sensor" is pretty much the same as a proximity sensor, just tuned to the touch surface, so I don't think that could be much of a problem. Just put the sensor plane behind the keys.
BTW, I've seen a keyboard prototype that used capacitive sensing of the user's fingertips as the key-actuation method. By doing that, the trackpad/keyboard might be even simpler.
Yeah but the keys/switches themselves could become damaged by pushing them side to side. Maybe on a low height keyboard on a laptop it’s less of a problem, but trying to swipe my fingers across my mechanical keyboard and my X1 Yoga keyboard definitely feels like I’m going to break something.
The BB Passport had almost no gaps between the keys, so it felt like a continuous, slightly bumpy surface. I don’t think that’d work well on a larger form factor, but maybe I’m wrong.
I love them, but don’t think they’ve held up over time. This is subjective, but they just don’t feel right on modern, wide, high resolution displays.
The acceleration always feels wrong and UI elements have gotten smaller or nearly vanished. Trying to position a trackpoint to resize a window is maddening these days.
Back on the old Toshiba Satellites in the Win 9x days though? They felt just right, a solution that truly fit the computer and UI of the era.
That all said I still prefer them over virtually every touchpad.
Cannot deal with its inaccurate method...the trackpad gives position control whereas a trackpoint gives speed or even acceleration control and that's not what I want... ideally you want to mimic a touchscreen and the trackpoint is the furthest you can have from that, barring arrow keys
Even when I'm at home with a mouse, I tend to fall back to the trackpoint to adjust sliders or pick colours precisely in Lightroom.
Trackpoints on my Thinkpad give superior position control to everything tried from Mac trackpad to digital tables.
The only drawback is that moving the cursor across 3 screens is way too slow using the trackpoint.
Not to brag, but I used to be pretty good at Quake with a trackpoint. Not as good as with a real mouse, but trackpoints work reasonably well for first person games. Better than a touchpad for sure.
IMHO, the nub is great when your screen is small and you still mostly interact with the computer by typing. On large screens, you have to choose between having an extremely fiddly pointer or an infuriatingly slow one. I wouldn't mind a nub on a truely tiny computer, but nowadays something that small would have a touchscreen. I'd classify this as great for its time and an occasionally a nice, but inessential feature on a laptop today.
I used to really insist on the trackpoint. Now, I feel like the best part of the trackpoint is "laptops with a trackpoint also have physical mouse buttons".
I'm fine with a trackpad, but physical mouse buttons are a hard requirement for me on any laptop.
Out of curiosity, have you tried the Apple ones? After years of using the button-less trackpad that simulates clicks with vibrations, ones with buttons just seem weird.
I have tried the Apple ones a few times and every time I go back to a laptop that has physical buttons it just feels so much better. I also find I get much less cramping in my fingers too.
I have, and I really can't stand them. I regularly use right-click and middle-click, as well as click-and-drag, and I find the substitutes for those on a buttonless touchpad quite uncomfortable.
I've also converted from Trackpoint to trackpad over the years. My solution for "physical mouse buttons" on a Mac laptop involves mapping Caps Lock (left pinky) to Left Click, and Right Option (right pinky) to Right Click. With Karabiner, this is easy and works perfectly for my needs. I typically Tap to Click on the trackpad for following links and the like, but always hold down Caps Lock for click and drag (which I find very uncomfortable otherwise). If you are otherwise interested in Mac hardware, you might like it too.
I think a great option if we really want to build a better mouse is to replace the scroll wheel with something TrackPoint-like.
Scroll wheels are a ridiculous interface that we tolerate because they're useful, but if we had a better alternative I think they'd quickly go extinct and no one would miss them. The problem with scroll wheels is that you end up scrolling up and down in a jerky fashion because you have to reposition your finger constantly. With a TrackPoint style control, or something like the spring-loaded pitch-bend wheel on most MIDI keyboards, you don't have to reposition your finger and can just scroll.
I haven't investigated what's involved in building a custom mouse these days, but it's kind of tempting.
>something like the spring-loaded pitch-bend wheel on most MIDI keyboards
That's a great idea! It would also have usable clicking, unlike today's scroll wheels where clicking ends up moving the scroll wheel or not clicking way too often.
I haven't had an issue with the scroll wheel clicker, or have any particular idea to improve upon it, unless one were to do away with the clicker entirely in favor of thumb buttons or maybe putting an extra button next to the scroll wheel instead of having the scroll wheel be the button.
Those look like they have standard scroll wheels, albeit maybe they're wide enough that you could get a continuous scroll by alternating between index and middle fingers. Am I missing something fundamentally unique about them?
My Logitech g500 from many years ago has a physical toggle for detent/freewheel scrolling, and I love it. Precise when I need it, and zooming up or down when I need speed.
That seems like an improvement, but not really what I'm talking about. I'd like a mouse where the scroll wheel is replaced with something you can apply pressure to, and as long as you apply pressure it continues to scroll -- no need for your finger to even let go of it. (Someone else pointed out that IBM released a mouse that works the way I'm describing a long time ago. It was kind of a commercial flop, partly due to IBM being slow to switch away from mechanical mouse balls to optical sensors.)
This already existed. The IBM/Lenovo ScrollPoint mouse.
I seem to remember using the original one 20+ years ago, which was literally just a TrackPoint where a scrollwheel was on a mouse. But I think the 2.0 version was more popular.
The early "TrackPoint Mouse" had a regular Trackpoint. ScrollPoint had a bigger knob shaped more like a mousebutton. There were several models with different shaped mouse bodies.
A problem is that you'll need drivers to use them, or some hack to turn down the scrolling sensitivity. If you just plug one in, it will scroll much too fast. They had been made before Microsoft's high-precision scrolling extension to the USB HID protocol: the default is 24 detents/revolution which is not enough for scrollpoint.
Huh, I'd never seen those and that's pretty much exactly what I want. I figured my idea was too obvious to be original, but wondered if someone had created a failed product based on a patented design, thus locking out anyone else from making the same thing. I don't know if IBM ever patented it, but that seems to fit. And since it was released in 1998, the patent (if there is one) is probably just recently expired.
TBH reaching back into the foggy recesses of my raving-addled-brain-from-the-90s, I never saw one other than when I worked on contract at IBM (Toronto, Don Mills office) in the fall of 1999. I seem to remember having one at my desk. The original TrackPoint version.
And I have a vague recollection of liking it, though I also remember my finger calloused a bit from its use. Like playing guitar.
I very like this one. We could be using zooming UI now if it had two joysticks: one for scroll, one for zooms (view and text or distance and perspective); three had the keyboard (one for cursor) - and what about one more (not on the mouse) for 'rotation', mean 4 2D analogues as default ?
It's not supported in every application, but most web browsers & document browsers have some kind of middle-click autoscroll situation. You may have to toggle it On in the settings. Basically you middle-click once (or click & hold), a little scroll icon appears, and then the document scrolls based on how far your mouse cursor is from the scroll icon. Click again (or release) to stop scrolling. Functionally it's pretty similar to the pitch bend wheel you describe. Works great when it's available.
completely anecdotal, but when Diablo 2 resurrected came out I went on a 2-day binge, 16 hours a day. A couple hours into the first day I was already feeling pain in my mouse hand, but after switching to trackpoint I had zero issues grinding for the next 2 days.
I don't have a trackpoint on my keyboard.
So I use warpd [1] for pointing at a location on the screen with key combinations. It is really convenient, once your brain has rewired to this way of clicking.
Still have to use the (real) mouse when dealing with drag'n drop or selection, though.
253 comments
[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 268 ms ] threadthey clog up but with 500 of them and an ultrasonic cleaner I bet they last a long time.
I imagine you after a plague, or zombies, or war, in an enclave, 5 years later, panicking with only 2 spares left.
http://www.trackcap.com/
That trackpoint + the good old thinkpad keyboard were, to me, the best experience ever. But thinkpad were always too hot, too big, and then they gave up on that amazing keyboard.
Perfect thinkpad: - 4:3 screen - arm-based - touchpad-less, grippy-trackpoint - old-keyboard
trackpad people seem to love this process, which I have never understood:
put finger down on trackpad.
move finger.
lift finger from trackpad.
move finger.
put finger down on trackpad.
move finger more slowly to get some precision.
lift finger from trackpad.
tap trackpad once followed by tap and hold.
move finger to edge of trackpad to very slowly continue to drag selection marker.
etc.
it's exhausting
I mean... Right back at you: you should have adjusted the sensitivity :P
The trackpads on my laptops are set so that a single moderately quick swipe across the surface is more than enough to cover an entire 24inch 4k monitor's worth of movement.
And no one on a modern trackpad (that I know of... I'm mid 30s) uses the "tap, tap again to hold" pattern. They click the button of the trackpad with a thumb (hold) and navigate using a finger while the button is held. It's mid 2020s, every trackpad shipped supports multipoint input.
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That said - a traditional mouse is still the hard winner in this category. No question. But I'd take mouse -> trackball -> trackpad -> trackpoint. My hands are large and the positioning of the nub is incredibly awkward and uncomfortable to use for any extended duration without moving my hands just like for a trackpad, and the nub doesn't allow real multipoint input or navigational gestures.
Back in the day, I would return the entire laptop because of a rubbish trackpoint if it were an IBM built ThinkPad.
At least for me, maxing out the trackpoint sensitivity on my X1 Yoga results a noticeable decrease in the amount of force required & didn't have an impact on accuracy.
If I can smash a trackpoint onto a mechanical keyboard I would love to.
https://tex.com.tw/collections/keyboard
Its Trackpoint is even better than a Thinkpad one. It's the original module with 2 improvements: the ability to adjust the nipple sensitivity from the keyboard and the large buttons which are actually full-blown keys with mechanical switches.
It's also a very nice keyboard on its own. The keycap shape is unique and very nice to the touch, once you get used to it.
I can even place the Shinobi directly on top of my Thinkpad's (X1C6) built-in keyboard so that I don't have to use the latter unless I'm traveling (and unwilling to bring the Shinobi along).
Now some laptop project (perhaps Framework?) just has to team up with Tex to make a real ThinkPad alternative.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Cate...
But that page says 'sorry one of our parts suppliers went belly up and we're trying to find a new one' so you can't buy a new one today.
There's precedent. :)
If I heard correctly, when the inventor went to pitch TrackPoint in a meeting at IBM, he showed up with a normal keyboard, a TrackPoint assembly, and a drill, and proceeded to retrofit a TrackPoint in front of them.
He once spontaneously offered to give me a new TrackPoint SpaceSaver II keyboard (he had a couple retail boxes of them in his office). That happened to be my dream keyboard at the time, so I knew it was $170, which seemed way too expensive a gift for a poor grad student, so I couldn't accept. :)
They're also pretty great for controlling a computer from the couch, way way better than the horrifically bad trackpads found in most keyboards made for entertainment center usage. For this reason I have a ThinkPad Keyboard II hooked up to my living room PC, and as a bonus the keyboard's switch between Bluetooth and an RF dongle makes it easy to switch over to a PS5 with the dongle plugged in for the odd occasion where it's useful to be able to type on it.
Some time in the coming months I’ll be receiving the TEX Shura[0] (and more precisely, the DIY variant[1]) I preordered a few months ago which will let me see how well a trackpoint meshes with my desk setup.
[0]: https://tex.com.tw/products/shura?variant=42840179409051
[1]: https://tex.com.tw/products/shura-diy-type?variant=428450353...
The Shura looks really cool though, thanks. I might get one.
This is interesting because middle-mouse-button+trackpoint is my favourite scrolling method
Touchpads have a hard time competing on user experience because they need to be physically large to work well, and that's expensive.
Being right in the middle of home row is so nice. I've now even use a modifier key to make home row keys become arrows/home/end/PgUp/PgDn, so my hands never have to reach far for anything at all.
A few people here have noted problems with the amount of force needed to use the trackpoint, but I wonder if that's a problem of either settings or wear since I barely need to nudge mine to do everything I want it to do. They do seem to require significantly more pressure to use as the rubber cover wears out, otherwise your finger slips off. You might not even notice it, but do yourself a favor and get a pack of replacements for a few dollars on ebay or wherever, new ones feel so nice!
1. Stop. Don't type/mouse through pain, or you could be causing permanent damage. Figure out what the problem is, maybe with the help or a doctor and/or workstation ergonomics expert.
2. If TrackPoint is involved, that's possible, but I find it's mostly a win, but the win might depend on how one uses it. I use little force, and have done it all day for 20 years, without problem. The sensitivity is adjustable. Which cap you put on it makes a big difference. There are 5+ different caps. I like the soft concave top one best. With some of the other styles of cap, especially early on (like the hard sandpaper one, and the slick Toshiba(?) one), I found I was pressing much harder, just to get a grip on it.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=trackpoint%20caps
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=trackpoint+caps
It's worth investing time & money in a good, ergonomic typing setup. If you don't do it up front, you'll be investing a lot more time in money - in physical therapy, and buying top-of-the-line stuff because the mid tier equipment isn't good enough for you to avoid reinjury anymore.
Some things that work for me:
- Vertical mouse (Logitech MX Vertical - there are knockoffs, I haven't tried them)
- Mechanical keyboard with a good amount of travel (laptop keyboards with hardly any travel are no good for me anymore)
- Gaming mouse pad (it's like a mousepad that covers a large area)
- Pads that go over the armrests of my chair (if my arms are resting on hard plastic, it limits my circulation, which exacerbates my tendonitis)
I strongly encourage you to learn proper typing habits. I don't want to speak too authoritatively (if I'm saying anything incorrect, please correct me, and please do research this yourself - it's really important for your health & career), I'm not an expert I just know what works for me, but you shouldn't rotate your wrists, and you shouldn't have them at any sort of angle relative to your firearms; it should be straight and they should just glide over the keyboard. It's a good idea to learn how to stretch your wrists as well.
I have seen many armchair orthopedic experts on Reddit, Quora and elsewhere talk about “RSI” like it’s a single disorder with a single treatment. In reality, RSI is an umbrella term for many conditions, and not just of the arms and hands. Googling “RSI” is useless. You MUST determine which RSI (if any) you have. The treatment for tendinitis is very different from the treatment for cubital or carpal tunnel syndromes. This is probably why so many people who identify as having “RSI” have been unsuccessful in finding an effective treatment. Heck, if you truly have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, surgery is THE treatment. Anything else is a band-aid. Fortunately, the surgery is quick, the recovery is quick (typically within a week for light activity), and it is usually permanent.
A few times a month my wife has what she calls a "Google patient". Her canned response is: "Your google search isn't equivalent to my medical degree." Some get it.
On the engineering front, it takes work to stay up to date on the latest technologies. I have been in the field for 40 years, I know lots of people with the same time in the domain who can barely deal with a modern computer, much less design with modern FPGA's, processors and write software in a range of modern languages. People do stagnate. That's just reality.
The same is the case with doctors, or almost any profession. One plumber might be up to date with the latest advances and have great diagnostics skills while the other hits everything with a hammer.
Which hints at the other reality. I have worked with dozens of young engineers just out of school. It is interesting to see just how wide a range of skills and capabilities you get. Those who went into engineering with passion stand out because they are engaged in the field and have a real tangible sense of how things work. For lack of a better term, they were getting their hands dirty before they started university, and it shows. Others came to my desk with such low skills it was hard to conceive how they might succeed.
Doctors have to be in the same reality. We've all heard of doctors who misdiagnose people who, months or years later, through great personal effort, finally discover what was wrong and got it handled. What I have never seen is a root-cause analysis of this (well, there was a TV show years back that did some of this). That's what matters. Medicine (or engineering) will never improve if we don't have a mechanism through which we can go back and ensure some of these things happen with less frequency.
This is where I believe AI-based diagnosis will eventually become a useful tool. Not to replace doctors, but rather to present them with a range of opinions to explore. As with anything in computing, these systems will require accurate data, both medical and from the patient. And that's how we come full circle to the problems in medicine, one of which is having to work with patients who are uninformed or ill-informed from whom it is difficult to obtain accurate data for diagnostics. Not an easy problem.
The son literally came into the exam room with a laptop showing my X-Rays, said I don't have arthritis, went to leave, I had to stop him and kind of press him because he didn't diagnose me with anything, then he did some test where he pressed my thumbs into their joints and asked if that hurt. It did. Then he said that I have arthritis in my thumb joints. This is the kind of sloppiness I would expect from the juniorist of junior developers, not a medical doctor who spent over a decade in school and specializes in orthopedics. Needless to say, that same maneuver does not hurt my thumbs anymore, and I brought this up when I saw his dad a couple of weeks later. He said something to the effect of "well sometimes arthritis comes and goes" and then changed the subject. The sheer arrogance (I don't think it's incompetence) in that building was astounding. So I, a 27 year old with no signs of arthritis on X-Rays, have arthritis that "comes and goes", even though I continue to work a desk job for 8 hours a day. Makes sense.
I saw a hand surgeon who said the arthritis diagnosis was wrong and couldn't explain why he made that diagnosis.
When the nerve conduction study came back normal, it was subtly suggested that the pain might be psychosomatic since I mentioned the pain went down when I started taking an SSRI.
So after being told by 3 docs it was carpal tunnel syndrome, and then the neurologist saying it wasn't, I went back to the Internet, and stumbled upon Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. It fit so perfectly, and the provocative tests for it immediately made my symptoms worse. At the follow-up with the hand surgeon, I brought this up after she said something to the effect of "well, it's not CTS so I can't help you, here's a prescription for physical therapy, good luck", she immediately said that "TOS is very rare, and it would have shown on the nerve conduction study". This is obviously false (even without the research papers I found) because performing stretches and exercises meant to treat TOS have been incredibly effective for me.
Complete shitshow. And of course I had to pay ~$1000 for all that. It's funny how we can see doctors who are either wrong or unable to come to a diagnosis, and we have to pay them anyway, but if a plumber comes to my house, says I have a bad septic tank, then proceeds to replace my kitchen faucet, obviously I am not going to pay him.
I think my issue was that I was not assertive ENOUGH with these docs, but of course I don't want to be "that guy". Kind of a lose-lose situation.
In one case the patient had been gaining weight for a couple of years and had other issues despite eating a very restricted diet, exercising, etc. Long story short, it turned out to be a pituitary gland tumor (Cushing's syndrome). This was diagnosed at UCLA by an expert in the field. One surgery later and she was back to normal weight (half the prior weight almost) within a year and feeling healthy. The other doctors had her on a path to nothing good and potentially a short life.
Thankfully bad doctors like these aren't the norm. Yes, of course, as a patient, being informed is super important. Nobody is going to care more about you, your kids, your family than you.
The problem with google searches happens with scenarios like a patient insisting on getting Hydroxychloroquine because they found it online or heard someone recommend it.
Sure, if I then insist and do not seem to respond to reason, then it may become appropriate.
Patients, just like doctors and engineers, are in a range between good and horrible. Some work with the doctor, follow directions, take the medicine/treatment and make progress. Others are the opposite, they keep coming back with the same issues (and often more) and, when interrogated, doctors discover they completely ignored (or worse, modified) what they where told to do. This kind of thing is truly frustrating. To put it in CS terms, imagine telling a junior developer how to fix a problem that has been compromising a codebase, only to discover, a month later, that the developer ignored your advice and decide to change variable names instead, because an article on the web said short variable names are better. Bullshit example, yet not too far from medical reality sometimes.
At the extreme are patients who are uninformed, rude, entitled and combative. It seems my wife comes home rattled once every couple of months after having to deal with a complete asshole who ruined her day.
With regards to information, yes, of course, she absolutely prefers informed patients. Why? Because those often turn out to be the good patients she can really help. The "Your google search..." comment isn't a universal statement delivered to anyone who says "I read on the web...". No, that isn't the case at all. She tells me patients do come-in who have done their homework and contribute valuable information to the process. These patients are actively engaged in the process.
There's a vast difference between being informed and engaged in what's going on and reading a few things in social media and actually thinking you know what you are talking about. People insisting on getting antibiotics for just-about everything is one example of this.
Those who receive and deserve the put-down are zero-effort, zero-knowledge patients who, after having read something on the web --which is often irrelevant or way out there-- come to the doctor absolutely convinced that is THE way to handle whatever it is might ail them. These patients are often in the combative, arrogant, rude category. The often require what my wife calls "The New York attitude" treatment. In other words, you have to forcefully (not physically, of course) assert yourself or you can't help them.
As an example, imagine someone coming in asking for a prescription to some ridiculous medicine to be protected from COVID and, at the same time, refuse to get vaccinated because they believe the government injects you with microscopic radio transmitters that track you. Yes, this is an extreme example, of course, however, it is hard for someone not dealing with dozens of patients a day to imagine the range of situations a doctor encounters on a daily basis.
I guess the reason I'm touchy about the topic is that, given that I am not a doctor, I have much more experience with encountering idiot doctors than idiot patients. This makes my fear of being patronizingly shut down for "reading things on the internet" much more prominent.
True, occasionally it's better.
In other words, yes, being informed is good. Everyone should dig as deep as their education allows them to when it comes to their own medical needs. However, at the end of the day, it is impossible (and unwise) to pretend that this can substitute for a real doctor. We are talking about good doctors here, not the few at the bottom of the barrel who would have better-served society by choosing a different career.
To help illustrate, here's a skit where a doctor satirizes this attitude: https://youtube.com/shorts/u_-a7pvFpsA
I just feel like this is a huge missing stair, not only in our industry but in life in general (I've met people who've had similar issues playing piano, using a cash register, and playing guitar), and I try not to overstate how much I know about it, but I also want to let people know it is something they should pay attention to. When the opportunity presents itself I try to give people the warning I wish I'd had.
I'm curious what your symptoms are/were and how old you are. Tendonitis seems to usually have more to do with age than overuse per sé.
I don't want to give specifics of my age publicly (if you'd like them please shoot me an email & I'll share then privately) but I'm on the younger side. I don't remember every symptom, but it hurt to type, my hands would fall asleep in the night if I wasn't very careful, I couldn't rotate my wrist comfortably, et cetera. My forearms were covered in adhesions.
That was a few years ago. I don't do as much as I should to take care of my hands but things are a lot better. My hands tire easier than they ought to, they're very sensitive to being impinged upon (eg I can't use the hard plastic armrests of my chair without additional cushioning), and I can't type or especially use the mouse if it's cold without pain (so I don't, I turn the heat up and wait).
I do have this memory of when I was a child, I regularly refused to hold anything when I first woke up. People would try to hand me things and I'd insist my hands felt weird and that I couldn't hold anything until they "warmed up" (figuratively). From what I remember it was similar to how my hands feel when I'm not using my armrests of when I've typed too much. I did have a terrible sleeping habit where I folded my arm under my neck like a chicken wing; maybe I did impinge a nerve in my shoulder or some other weird thing that's followed me around this whole time, I can't say for certain. That sleeping habit did start fucking me up more and more in my adulthood and I had to stop it, and I do get aches in my neck on that same side of I don't use a special pillow. I think I still have a remnant of it where I turn my head at night if my special pillow doesn't discourage it, and then I wake up with a sore neck. I got that special pillow after an incident where I somehow fucked up my back and my whole back was stiff and it was a struggle to move for a day or so.
I don't know if any of that means anything, but there you go.
There are a lot of people out there who will tell you their "symptoms" got better when they switched to an ergonomic keyboard or a vertical mouse. My theory is that this "very gradual relief" is typically because those ergonomic peripherals subtly relieve nerve impingement going on in, say, the shoulder area. For example, a split keyboard that slopes up towards the middle achieves two things: 1) it pushes the shoulders more out of interior rotation (interior rotation causes Thoracic Outlet Syndrome) and 2) allows the forearms to not be in full pronation (though this is apparently less important as the related nerve impingement, Pronator Teres Syndrome, is linked to repeated pronation MOVEMENTS, not static pronation like you'd expect at a desk job).
I remember reading a Medium article last Summer where the author (a SWE) talked about how switching to an ergonomic keyboard helped, but it took several months to recover from "RSI". To me, it sounds like he switched to an ergonomic, split keyboard, that VERY SLOWLY (over a period of months), relieved interior rotation of the shoulders. I believe that the author would have experienced more drastic relief, sooner, if he engaged in certain stretches and exercises aimed at correcting posture/strengthening posture muscles.
I can't stress enough how important it is that you figure out WHICH RSI you are dealing with. There's A LOT of armchair/self diagnosis going on in places like /r/RSI where people A) don't know which RSI they have and just try things until something works and B) often assert they have "many" RSIs (e.g. tendonitis AND carpal tunnel syndrome AND cubital tunnel syndrome) - this is possible but unlikely. The problem with A is that the treatment for tendonitis is very different from the treatment for carpal/cubital tunnel syndromes, arthritis, radiculopathy, etc. Some on /r/RSI complain of "years of pain", were diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, but are refusing (or are perhaps unable) to get Carpal Tunnel Release surgery, which I compare to wisdom teeth removal in both commonality and risk-reward.
Finally, it seems to often take many months, or even years to get a proper diagnosis for "RSI". I recommend to people to do their own research, but do NOT rely on Google. OrthoBullets is a great website full of reliable information, especially in the area of diagnosis. It's meant for medical students, but still very readable by those with other backgrounds. NIH.gov has a lot of good info, like research papers/studies that shows things like:
- There lacks strong evidence to support the notion that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and using a computer have a causal relationship (correlation does not imply causation!)
- Nerve conduction studies (often abbreviated as NCS and EMG) often return a normal/clean result, in spite of nerve impingement, and seem to be useless particularly in early cases (e.g. the nerve related symptoms started, say, a few months ago).
There are tests you can do at home (some require another person) to test for all of these, and I suspect at least one will aggravate your symptoms:
- Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
- Cubital Tunnel Syndrome
- Pronator Teres Syndrome
- Thoracic Outlet Syndrome
- Arthritis (it's probably not this)
- Cervical Radiculopathy (it's probably not this, unless you are old or recently experienced trauma in that area, like a car accident)
All of these are TREATABLE, especially the first four. Ideally you don't have one of the last two, but both of those seem to typically be an "advanced age" thing. Statistically speaking, you probably have one of the first four. It is theoretically possible to have more than one of these things, but probably very unlikely (I don't have any stats handy, but I know it's uncommon).
- Vertical mouse (Logitech MX Vertical - there are knockoffs, I haven't tried them)
Or a trackpoint.
- Mechanical keyboard with a good amount of travel (laptop keyboards with hardly any travel are no good for me anymore)
Or a Thinkpad keyboard (though they have been getting shallower).
I've been addicted to Trackpoints since forever. Trackpads seem so backward to me. A trackpoint is like mind control in comparison. I'm lucky Thinkpads are generally good and I don't care for MacOS, because otherwise I'd be really stuck.
But I don't presume to proscribe.
[1] https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/accessories-and-software/keyb...
[2] https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi?variant=16969883648090
However, for me I use the Thinkpad as a "controller" for a desktop, so I get two (well, three, the desktop has two) independant screens and kvm functionality via Barrier (derived from Synergy).
Maybe I'd never want to go back if I tried a mechanical (I got my partner one, but haven't touched it), but I could not go back (way back) to a mouse.
https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
Which then requires a mouse (especially annoying when you're left-handed), but I only need that to click things on websites. There's nothing else I can't easily reach from the comfort of my (mechanical) keyboard. I just plug in a hub filled with HDMI/USB devices and close the lid.
I've read that frequently looking away from the screen, so your focus doesn't remain fixed to one position, is helpful for eyestrain. Thanks to touch typing, I can write text and even code with my eyes closed.
Of course you know how it goes... other things may have changed at the same time.
Interestingly, not knowing how to touch type would also mean that you frequently switch your eyes from the screen (to look at the keyboard). In fact, as someone who has learned to touch type but is still making a lot of mistakes, my eyes are much more glued to the screen than when I used to have to look at the keyboard to find my place again.
I don’t understand why it is adjustable in the first place[1]. Personally I bring it all the way to the right, or one notch below, and never touch it again. To me it is less adjustable, and more that the default value is wrong and have to be mitigated.
1: On TrackPoint tab in classic Control Panel screen, separate to mouse cursor sensitivity on the other tab. Both has different effects.
One of many examples is the prevalence of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in the world. It’s the most-common orthopedic surgery in the US, yet its success rate is thought to be around 90%. What would cause the surgery to fail? Technically it could be a botched surgery (eg scalpel cuts the median nerve), but that’s always known at the time of surgery because duh. Rather, the ~10% failure rate is mostly made of cases where the surgery went as expected, yet the nerve impingement symptoms persisted. There’s very little out there on the notion that these patients could simply have been misdiagnosed. If you feel tingling or numbness or burning in your fingers/hand, it could be caused really at any point between the spine and the hand. Typically nerve impingement of the hand occurs in the spine, thoracic outlet, cubital tunnel, forearm, or the carpal tunnel. The symptoms are more or less the same regardless, yet Docs seem to always implicate the carpal tunnel, even though there does not exist a reliable study that shows keyboard/mouse use is a risk factor for developing CTS.
Back twenty years ago I did just this. I was working 18 hour days. Sadly, pain was normal. The thing is, when it is your own company you can't take a couple of weeks off to sort it out.
Ultimately, I designed and fabricated my own ergonomic desks. My preference has been to use a thumb-actuated trackball. Soon after making these desks I was back to my 16 to 18 hour a day schedule and had no pain at all. Yes, it took a while for the soreness and inflammation to disappear. The point is, my wrists got better, even while working long hours.
It is crucially important to pay attention to ergonomics and learn to be relaxed. Mice, in my opinion, are terrible. It depends on the task, of course. In my case, my time is split between EDA CAD (electronics design), software development and mechanical 3D CAD. In other words, reaching for the mouse is unavoidable. In this context, the trackball has proven to be the right tool for the job. I have tried some of the fancy 3D knob technology and more. None of it really worked for me.
Here are a couple of old pictures showing the key element in the design; a dropped-down surface for the keyboard and trackball and a nice forearm support bar.
https://i.imgur.com/S8gOPh7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PoKDNOk.jpg
Your hand should droop into the cavity. The shoulders, arm, forearm, wrist and hand should be as relaxed as possible. This worked for me.
However, more recently I have replaced it with a Wacom graphic tablet configured in mouse mode, which, at least for me, has been a huge improvement in precision, speed and comfort over any mouse, trackball, trackpoint or touchpad.
In my case it spans a range from typical office/email applications to mechanical 3D CAD, software engineering, electronics CAD, various specialized manufacturing tools/applications and graphic design software. It's varied enough that there's no way I could use a Wacom tablet (I have a few). The trackball seems to be the best common denominator for everything but running tools like Photoshop/GIMP/Corel. In that case the preference these days for us has shifted to drawing tablets with built-in displays (https://www.xp-pen.com/).
I'm now becoming convinced that pairing a good external Trackpoint keyboard with a 2-in-1 laptop will be the way to go if you don't want to be tied to Lenovo.
Naturally, like every device nowadays, they've traded thickness for function so it is also impressively thin. If I enjoyed using the keyboard, I would also be pleased with the battery life.
That one doesn't even have a huge screen resolution (1920x1200 I think) so I don't quite understand what's wrong. Maybe some change in parts?
I tried a different laptop a few years ago and returned it after a week because it just felt wrong to rely on a trackpad when I couldn't use a mouse.
Also, there are projects to refit some older thinkpads with a new motherboard and modern cpu.
But no, I still prefer the trackpoint: any trackpad, no matter how godly, still involves moving my hand from the keyboard down, back and forth, back and forth. Nothing is speedier than to move the mouse pointer around with a trackpoint.
And I would grant for certain applications a trackpad is better, like image editing where your hand is on the trackpad most of the time. But for anything involving heavy keyboard use, a trackpoint can't be beat.
Then there are mechanic keyboards with trackpoints from Tex in Taiwan: https://tex.com.tw/collections/all
When I had a Thinkpad and used the Trackpoint keyboard with my workstation, I had the same muscle memory for both. Bought a MacBook for battery life.
Meanwhile I could use Lenovo trackpoint all day every day without problem.
At some point I switched to slim keyboards, and to a trackball mouse. I also tried to use a magic trackpad in between but that made it worse.
Nowadays I am using the Thinkpad USB keyboard combined with a CSL vertical mouse and I don't have any string injuries anymore. I mainly chose the keyboard because it is actually one of like 3 that doesn't have batteries and doesn't have a numpad that I don't use anyways.
As a mousepad I am using an aluminium/teflon mousepad I have for like 20 years now. It is superflat and doesn't make my arms stick to it while moving.
As to your mouse movements: the thinkpad usb keyboard has an additional middle mouse key, which does exactly that. It's just so comfortable to use while browsing.
For lots of mouse movements, like in CAD tools or other mouse-heavy environments I still stick to using my vertical mouse though.
Also there have been times (I guess long ago) when id rub into someone with a computer with a nipple (did toshiba used to have these? Guess they didn’t call then trackpoints?) and start poking at it, and the person would say, “yeah this piece of junk has one of those” and I’d say “what? These are awesome!”
Don’t get me started on how deadly I was with a shotgun in CounterStrike on one of these in college
Unfortunately their trackpoints come without that middle mouse button, which I liked to set to scrolling by trackpoint on my Dells.
(haven't used a laptop without trackpoint in ages but never really converted for regular pointing)
If that is the case, get a tighter-fitting and harder top for it. The tiniest bit of play or flex is wasted force. The actual pointing stick is remarkably sensitive.
IMO which rubber nub you use is huge as well. I'm partial to the wide and concave nub, as you can simply pressure the edge and the mouse moves.
I do this as well. It's one of the best things I ever did. It does make it awkward when I use someone elses computer now though.
For desktop's i use mostly trackballs like M575...so much less stress for shoulders and hand, and perfectly usable in the bed or well everywhere.
The only thing that has come close to being good enough are apple trackpads. Yes, still have to remove fingers from home row, but the control is as good.
Its one guy making these keyboards, a lot of love go into them. I absolutely love mine.
Otherwise agreed. I find track pads Incredibly wasteful - we've continually canibalizing the keyboard for sake of larger track pad. I bit the bullet and splurged on t25 (with traditional keyboard including home row)about 5 years ago,and it remains my daily driver.
Especially the smaller you go, including what used to be net books (12" and smaller) - track point is exactly as effective at all scales, whereas track pad and keyboard compromises become worse and worse.
P.s. For some reason even though I'm a rightey,I use track point with my left hand which lets me switch it up a bit and makes for less of a stretch. Using track point for me is effective efficient and completely automatic. Track pads, still a struggle, whether I'm using it myself or watching somebody else scroll scroll scroll :-/
Old Toshiba Tecra's trackpoints were notorious for their drifting into some direction after they've been used for a while, some sort of sensor preference.
The ones on P and T lines of Thinkpads are totally the only way to go. I swear by mine on my old P50 workhorse, but alas, my new work laptop doesn't have one. Another challenge is not misplacing the extra nubbins that came with this back 6 years ago...
Looking now, the trackpoint shows up as a generic mouse. No special settings or anything. So yeah, on par with windows.
1: https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_configure_the_TrackPoi...
The mid button and scrolling works as intended on Ubuntu, unlike win10 that needs special attention.
I want to see someone try out a solution where each key on a keyboard gets a dedicated sensor, and you can have one hand/thumb press a magic "activate mouse" button, while the other hand basically runs across the keys just like you would use a touchpad. For bonus accuracy, you could sum/aggregate the movement of all fingers for the single pointer so that you can avoid lifting even any part of your hand.
I don’t think that would work as well on a larger keyboard, especially mechanical ones, or ones where there is a lot of space between keys.
A capacitive "touch sensor" is pretty much the same as a proximity sensor, just tuned to the touch surface, so I don't think that could be much of a problem. Just put the sensor plane behind the keys. BTW, I've seen a keyboard prototype that used capacitive sensing of the user's fingertips as the key-actuation method. By doing that, the trackpad/keyboard might be even simpler.
The BB Passport had almost no gaps between the keys, so it felt like a continuous, slightly bumpy surface. I don’t think that’d work well on a larger form factor, but maybe I’m wrong.
The acceleration always feels wrong and UI elements have gotten smaller or nearly vanished. Trying to position a trackpoint to resize a window is maddening these days.
Back on the old Toshiba Satellites in the Win 9x days though? They felt just right, a solution that truly fit the computer and UI of the era.
That all said I still prefer them over virtually every touchpad.
The only drawback is that moving the cursor across 3 screens is way too slow using the trackpoint.
I'm fine with a trackpad, but physical mouse buttons are a hard requirement for me on any laptop.
Scroll wheels are a ridiculous interface that we tolerate because they're useful, but if we had a better alternative I think they'd quickly go extinct and no one would miss them. The problem with scroll wheels is that you end up scrolling up and down in a jerky fashion because you have to reposition your finger constantly. With a TrackPoint style control, or something like the spring-loaded pitch-bend wheel on most MIDI keyboards, you don't have to reposition your finger and can just scroll.
I haven't investigated what's involved in building a custom mouse these days, but it's kind of tempting.
That's a great idea! It would also have usable clicking, unlike today's scroll wheels where clicking ends up moving the scroll wheel or not clicking way too often.
I prefer the free spinning MX Master thumb wheel. Having said that I've never enjoyed a trackpoint either, so I expect others would prefer it.
I seem to remember using the original one 20+ years ago, which was literally just a TrackPoint where a scrollwheel was on a mouse. But I think the 2.0 version was more popular.
https://linustechtips.com/blogs/entry/2091-scrollpoint-ibms-...
A problem is that you'll need drivers to use them, or some hack to turn down the scrolling sensitivity. If you just plug one in, it will scroll much too fast. They had been made before Microsoft's high-precision scrolling extension to the USB HID protocol: the default is 24 detents/revolution which is not enough for scrollpoint.
And I have a vague recollection of liking it, though I also remember my finger calloused a bit from its use. Like playing guitar.
Still have to use the (real) mouse when dealing with drag'n drop or selection, though.
[1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/warpd
Haven't looked through the comments, but there are a lot of them. Maybe there's something there.
I think the idea is brilliant too and wish I'd found this earlier.
- https://github.com/EsportToys/TPMouse
- https://github.com/GavinPen/AhkCoordGrid (based on AutoHotKey)