Ask HN: Looking for advice on my situation at work?
For these years, I have not got a single dollar raise or promotion. My salary has been the same from the day I joined in 2019.
Last year, performance review meeting was different. When mass layoffs were happening, manager brought another engineer on the team. I came to know that this engineer had known him in the past, could be friends. Even though, there was no need for another engineer on the team. My manager told me to train this engineer with same skill-set like you. I am a nice person so I brought this engineer up to speed. From the time this engineer has learnt everything that I have known, my manager has stopped talking to me. My 1:1 meetings has not happened for last few months. I am getting cold shoulder treatment from everyone else on team. This engineer who I taught has been assigned lead role and giving me directions for last few months. The whole situation has become toxic for me.
How to handle this situation best?
This is top 5 tech companies in Canada. If this is the kind of culture promoted here, how are other companies doing?
107 comments
[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 186 ms ] threadJob hoppers earn a lot more, over time. It sounds like it’s time to go. Perhaps there’s another department you could move to, as well? Otherwise, time to spend a weekend or two on Leetcode and then wrangle up some interviews.
I suspect something else is going on here, and without further details, I have to assume that leaving to a higher-paying job would be best for you.
You owe nothing to that company, at the end of the day you're just one name in someone's Excel file, the whole "family at work" trend is something awful that should not have been born, so you better get out of that.
Good luck!
Schedule a 1:1 with you manager. Don't reveal the agenda, but be polite and just say you want to discuss some things.
During the meeting get the answers to your questions. This time you can be direct (but still polite). If your manager is beating around the bush / sugar coating, your initial senses were probably right.
1. Immediately expressed disappointment and asked for an explanation of why you didn't receive a raise despite the feedback. They're probably not going to give you a raise at that point, but it makes clear that you're unhappy and comp adjustments are important to you. That way when they're making comp decisions at the next cycle, they can intuit that there will be consequences if they don't give you a raise.
2. ~6 months before the next comp adjustment cycle, remind your manager that you were disappointed not to have a raise last time, you've continued to outperform your peers, and it's extremely important to you to receive a significant raise in the upcoming cycle to feel valued by the company. Repeat this speech once review time starts.
After not getting a raise for two cycles (whether you took the above two steps or not), you get a new job. Why are you sticking around at a place that doesn't treat you well when you're a high-performing employee with an in-demand skillset? They're treating you poorly because you allow them to treat you poorly while still getting the work they need from you. You have to advocate for yourself in your career (and the rest of your life). You're asking how to handle this situation best, but it's honestly obvious - you know what you want, so go ask for it, and if you don't get it, go somewhere else where you can get it. You don't need advice on what to do, you just need to go stick up for yourself.
Have you openly spoken to your manager about your concerns? How it doesn’t feel fair? How you feel you’re being treated? There’s a chance they have no idea. Maybe they’re not that experienced and are just working things out themselves. Or if they seem like the wrong person, is there someone above them you can voice your concerns about?
Last time I had an employer I had feelings of being treated unfairly and voiced it and they gave me a big raise and a bonus, and they expressed how they respected me that much more for voicing it. (I did also come to them with a job offer from another company that had a larger dollar amount associated to it.). N=1 here and no guarantees of course, but it’s very worth attempting to communicate.
Being on the other end as a business owner myself now, I realize how easy it is to think everything that happens at the company and how it operates is deliberate and intentional. That is very often not the case. The invisible hand reaches over and forms companies just as it does the economy, eg one person makes a decision and introduced a structure or process 5 years ago and it just hasn’t been revisited despite the fact it should have.
If they don’t seem interested after some good attempts at being transparent and honest, you’re possibly a place that doesn’t value their employees, and it’s worth looking elsewhere to find a place that better aligns with your values.
As far as I know, this negotation strategy is orders of magnitude more effective than voicing feelings about being treated unfairly. Unless OP comes with better competing offer, there is likely nothing that can be changed in his situation.
It is a silly school of thought though. The same school of thought can also be found recommending to not give raises to their most loyal employees.
Did you raise it with your manager or his/her manager?
Just trying to understand at what forum did you raise it and how?
Considering how nobody is lifting a finger to help him, I reckon nobody else particularly enjoyed having him around, but couldn't get rid of him because of their reliance on his technical prowess.
It sounds like they're managing him out and he'll soon be on a PIP.
Your boss/manager hired their friend and unless you go over their head and can call this behavior out and demonstrate that this is clearly nepotism then you’re out of luck.
Get your your resume together, start contacting your network, make note of any wins/progress/etc for future interviews and start looking for other jobs.
When people talk about nepotism its usually how the underperforming person with personal ties to a manager isn't getting fired, or getting promoted, despite having everyone else do the work for them
If this friend is actually just as good as OP, that's pretty impressive, without connection to OP that needs to ask for better compensation or start interviewing elsewhere
But if the manager short-circuited the typical hiring process and just stuck his friend on the team then it's clear-cut nepotism and OP can't escape it without sidelining their manager within the organization.
Same observation here.
With every story, we're only getting the point of view of the author. Some things don't add up here, so I'd love to get some clarifications.
> This is top 5 tech companies in Canada.
That's vague. What do you mean by "top tech company"? Largest by earnings? Head-count? In my mind, a bank that hires programmers might do tech but isn't a tech company proper. Unlike an org like Google where engineering is at the core of the company.
> I was told that you are the best engineer in the whole organization. For these years, I have not got a single dollar raise or promotion. My salary has been the same from the day I joined in 2019.
What's the size of the whole organization? Your team? Division? Company? Being the best of an underperforming team is very different than being the best company-wide at a top firm.
Salary-wise, being told you are the "best of the best" three years in a row (in probably the hottest engineering market since the 90's, at least here in the Valley) and not getting any form of promotions or raise is a pretty big red-flag. All the top tech companies will refresh comp on a yearly basis because they know that their competitors will be ready to poach their best performers if they don't. To me that raises a red flag about your story. Either there's something you aren't telling us about the company or your performance...
Now, this is an anonymous post so there's literally no downside for anyone, but was the total comp. package like? Numbers will give us a clearer picture than vague descriptions to be honest.
> My manager told me to train this engineer with same skill-set like you. I am a nice person so I brought this engineer up to speed. From the time this engineer has learnt everything that I have known, my manager has stopped talking to me. My 1:1 meetings has not happened for last few months. I am getting cold shoulder treatment from everyone else on team. This engineer who I taught has been assigned lead role and giving me directions for last few months.
And it only took a little time to train him off, despite your assessment that you are the "top performer"? That's weird again. I don't think anyone could get hired and come up to speed with, say John Carmack or Linus Torvald. What’s the other engineer’s experience?
Just find another job and give notice ASAP.
That said, given the circumstances I believe it would be very wise to also proactively pursue different jobs in this case. If nothing else, it will open the OP’s eyes to the fact that jobs are a market and you have far more options than just staying with one company and hoping for the best.
The concerning part is the personal friendship the manager has with the new coworker. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but the way the OP has described the situation suggests that there is an in-group and an out-group, and the OP is very clearly not part of the in-group. A different team or company where people are viewed on more equal relationship footings would be a better fit for someone like the OP who is unsure about navigating company dynamics.
There's a culture that ascribes intent --sometimes characterized as evil--, greed and other negative qualities to businesses. This often comes from people who have never done anything non-trivial in business and sometimes those who have been subjected to ideological indoctrination in school.
It's unfortunate because in the vast majority of cases, as you describe, this isn't the case at all. It is also unfortunate because repeating this falsehood can lead to employees not understanding that there is no negative intent and that, again, more often than not, bringing up issues is welcome in most organizations.
Yes, it is possible for something to become, to use the term introduced by the OP, toxic. That does not mean it has intent. Have a conversation, voice concerns. No employer would get rid of a valued contributor unless forced to do so (economic reality is one example of a forcing function).
Also, be sure your conversation is constructive. People used to online interactions --which can be incredible dysfunctional and unrealistic-- sometimes come to in-person conversations with a feeling that the conversation will actually be a confrontation. It takes two complete jerks to have the kinds of conversations in real life that otherwise-normal people are often seen having online. Do not be afraid to talk to a real person in real life, particularly in a business setting and one where you know the players.
That said, if you are truly unhappy and you can, maybe it's time to look first look around and see what else might be available. I remember making the mistake of staying at my first job too long. I didn't understand it at the time. I did understand it when I was offered double my salary by a company in the same domain. Same work, new challenges, double the income. Do not wear blinders. Sometimes problems push you to improve your standing in life, whatever that might mean.
I don't have a good barometer on what is typical. I do think it's probably the wrong approach in most cases to assume malintent and not even try to have a conversation, and just leave. That's my main point. That sounds like a cowardly approach, sounds like victim mentality that will just continue into future roles unless addressed, and it sounds like it assumes the employee holds no power at all in the relationship, which is very possibly invalid in many cases including this one. The employer has likely invested a lot in the employee, the employee probably has ownership and responsibilities, and it's a pain as a manager to have to deal with someone leaving and figuring out how to cover for the loss.
I haven't worked for a FAANG or similar silicon valley giant and so maybe things are different at those places and devs are treated as a faceless commodity, but I haven't had that impression (curious to hear someone's input on this).
For OP: don't voice it. Write down what your manager is failing to do, send it in a nice little email. Create a paper trail
Talking with your manager can be a fine avenue, and can even be successful if your manager is an advocate to the upper administration for you, but most of the time it will be useless without using some sort of leverage to make management listen. Management's charter is to extract as much value from employees while minimizing expenditures. The ideal employee is one that does not ask for any more resources to do the job they were hired to do and then can be let go without fuss when not needed.
Employers have much of the power and when they don't actively try to keep their employees happy, through raises or other benefits, this is tantamount to them giving a clear message that they expect you to move on if you're able. There's a reason why most raises in a technology setting come from moving jobs.
For the OP, when management is bringing in someone for you to train, that's usually a signal that a re-org is coming and they want to make you redundant.
Upper management and administration in corporations may be made out of people but privilege blinds people in power to the repercussions of their decisions and actions to their employees that don't have that power. I have a little sympathy for people who haven't recognized the dynamic but I have less sympathy for those that understand the dynamic but don't do anything about it. The relationship is, by it's nature, antagonistic and should be treated as such.
> "Management's charter is to extract as much value from employees while minimizing expenditures."
Burning out a valued employee that can probably do work 10x better and faster than a brand new employee is not extracting value.
Are you overly sexist? Bitchy? Difficult?
If not use your time to find something better! You probably can't win this game.
One thing you could try: ask everyone on your team in private what you could do to be better.
Perhaps this might shine up something.
The get the heck out of there and find somewhere that is willing to treat you with more respect.
The feedback you won't like is that it's partially self inflicted. If you change company and combine working very hard with looking like you're happy with a pay cut each year (inflation is a thing) again, you'll be exploited again.
As to whether it's the standard Canadian culture, I'd say from personal experience and what I've seen with friends/family it is more common in the crown corps and tech oligopolies (i.e., Bell, Telus). So when you say Top 5, I'm not surprised the manager did this and got away with it.
That, and I know I'll be accused of Québec bashing, but when a company in Montreal is franco-dominated, there is a tendency to be, let's call it nepotistic, so that a member of the "family" calls the shots for the "outsiders", regardless of ability, understanding or basic competence. It's not always been my experience and the top companies don't do it but, it definitely happens more than it should. Especially those doing work for the provincial government or directly with schools/healthcare facilities.
Source: the child of Mediterranean immigrants born and bred in Montreal, with experience in startups, SMEs and one of the Big Telcos
There's a lot of cronyism in tech. You know the saying - your network is your net worth. I've heard what you're saying about Montreal, but I've also seen it all over the world.
People hire from their own network. If you were educated outside of Canada or have religious groups or other common cultural groups, then you'll tap into that network to hire. I've worked at companies with less than 100 people to companies with more than 10,000 people and team composition tends towards the manager's background.
I'm not sure I would label a state company or a telecom operator a "top" tech company. At least, here in the Valley it wouldn't get that label.
> That, and I know I'll be accused of Québec bashing, but when a company in Montreal is franco-dominated, there is a tendency to be, let's call it nepotistic, so that a member of the "family" calls the shots for the "outsiders", regardless of ability, understanding or basic competence. It's not always been my experience and the top companies don't do it but, it definitely happens more than it should.
We acquired a small company in Montreal a few years ago, and it's something the founders touched-on: they placed much a larger emphasis on French language skills when hiring than we initially assumed they would. In retrospect, the decision made sense; the founders and early employees were all native French speakers, so all the internal communications were in French. Ultimately it didn't matter in the long run: most of the key employees relocated to the Bay Area.
Post-acquisition we had to let go an employee for a weird attitude problem regarding language. One of the frequent arguments he had with everyone was that he insisted he didn't need to learn French to live in Montreal and was somehow hostile to the language. I honestly questioned why he immigrated there in the first place when there's 50 states and 9 other provinces he could go to and live exclusively in English? I get he probably couldn't pass the higher bar for US immigration but that still leaves 2/3rd of Canada to go to.
> Especially those doing work for the provincial government or directly with schools/healthcare facilities.
My understanding is that these contracts often have a clause that deliverables must be shipped in French. Especially for stuff that's customer-facing (like education or healthcare!).
Someone told me that, when dealing with the federal government for contracts, speaking French helps a lot. Since it's so much harder to offshore positions where French is required, you almost always get to speak with a real government employee and not a contractor. On a project he worked on only the manager 2 levels up was an actual government employee, because it was legally required for the contact point with contractors to be bilingual. Needless to say, he used his high school French to bypass two levels of IST time zoned "Project Solution Architect" and "Senior Project Analysts"...
I've had managers who strong me along before, it often happens because they perceive you as unable to move to the next level for valid or invalid reasons. It makes their job easier to tell you what you want to hear.
You should be preparing to find another job asap. There’s no reason to be staying in a situation like this.
I hate (have experience this myself) when instead of compensation for hard work, you receive fairly empty praise like "you're the best engineer we have". If I am, please pay me accordingly. This doesn't mean jumping you to principal engineer or anything, but it does mean to at least give you a raise. No raise or promotion in those three high performing years as their described best engineer seems absurd. In a lot of places, you need to vouch for yourself and maybe this is one of those places. You're the only person that's going to prioritize yourself.
I'd definitely sit down with you boss and tell him how you feel (write notes before hand) and be honest with them. Honestly, I'd start passively looking for jobs now. If things work out with your current employer, you can always still stay, but this will give you a jump start and an idea of your market worth.
I really wish you the best of luck. Worst case, I'm sure you'll be able to find another position that will compensate you appropriately.
1. Empowering others frees yourselves and build teams. Never stop empowering others. You will be more successful in the long run. If the environment is competing you against your peers, leave the environment. A good environment allows fostering good people and working conflict free with multiple good people. Empowering others is part of that.
2. When you are developed by your manager, you go through stages. First it is hands-on (1:1, training, help, guidance, ...) but later it becomes completely loose (more responsibility, punishment if you do something wrong). As a manager you end-goal is independent people which do not need hands-on 1:1 meetings. Are you in that situation maybe?
3. "Cold Shoulder from the rest of the team": Something happened what you have not figured out. Figure it out.
4. Regards the lead engineer position: Ask yourself: Does he deserve the job independent from your own pride? Do you belief that the only differencing factor is your manager's preference ... that sucks but is not necessary toxic. Friendship often translates in trust. Maybe your boss also relies on his friend on leading the team now while he does other things.
If you don't have regular 1:1 with your direct manager, and if managers don't have regular 1:1s with all their direct reports, your company doesn't know how to manage. It's table stakes for competent management, at all levels except perhaps C-level to C-level.
Regular 1:1 create the risk of micromanaging people and foster secrecy. It is good for developing people, but once they are developed what purpose do they have.
Maybe this is a culture thing (German here ... we fight in public ;)). My experience is: the layer where regular 1:1 starts, office politics is not far away ;)
Most people’s careers will probably span many employers, so relationships with coworkers are more important than relationships with employers.
>This is top 5 tech companies in Canada.
Choose one. No top 5 tech company would ignore a golden hen, and if they do, they will certainly feel it when you are gone. If your replacement is "up to speed" doing everything you were doing after a short training period - then this also waters down your claims of the above. I would honestly get an interview with a recruiter and see where you land on the engineer spectrum.
Top engineers in any organization that size will be known to management.
Some thoughts: Maybe your salary was very high when you came on originally? Did you negotiate it up a lot? Is your compensation equity-based and that part has picked up a lot vs your salary? In all big companies, there is an annual raise that corresponds to inflation - this is almost mandated at all companies so unless you had a sub-par performance review OR your comp package included something other than salary - it would be almost unheard of to have a salary frozen for 3 years, given even benchmark inflation was very high last year.
There are definitely some things not lining up here but giving you the benefit of the doubt:
Interview at the 4 bigger tech companies and see what you can get for an offer. If you get an offer, you use that as leverage to get a raise at your current job - or you take it. If you don't get an offer, then you stay put and have a meeting with your manager first, and if nothing comes of it or if you get blown off, then have a meeting with HR without your manager present. If neither of those things work, you can always adjust your output accordingly (9-5 mindset) since there seems to be no difference between high output and average for your role.
In any case, for your personal growth, it is helpful to understand why things have gone wrong between you and the manager (or the whole team).
One of your theories seems to be that the manager brought in a friend to boot you out. That would explain his behavior, but not that everyone else on the team is giving you the cold shoulder.
I am purely guessing at this point, and I don't want to offend you - but it is possible that you have upset the whole team. Either slowly through your behavior, or there was a meeting, or something else. This may have been fully unintentional by you, and you do not seem to be aware of it. For your next job, it'd be helpful for you to understand what has gone wrong!
Your text reads like you're not a native speaker? I'm not either ;) If you move between cultures, there may be things that are acceptable in your own culture, but not in the culture you moved to. E.g. the way to disagree or discuss things. Maybe that's the area where this misunderstanding has come from?
You could try to approach a team mate, or the manager, and ask openly about the situation. Tell them you sense something is wrong, you don't understand what you have done wrong, but you'd like to fix it.
> I am getting cold shoulder treatment from everyone else on team
But the above paints another.
Is there some reason the whole team would change in unison towards you that is related to your manager?
>My salary has been the same from the day I joined in 2019.
Have you not pushed for one at all? If you don't even get an inflationary raise, you shouldn't stay for one year, let alone three.
I wanna address this point. Even amazing companies will have shitty teams and managers. Conversely, companies with generally toxic reputations (like Amazon) will have amazing teams. Also: many startups kinda have to have a good culture since they lack the means to compensate you as well as bigger firms.
All of this to say: humans are very loss averse. There will be better/worse teams everywhere. Try to invest some effort into finding one that works for you.
As others have said, your best option is to do two things at once: look around, and voice your concerns. You clearly don't like the environment; even in this market, there are lots of other options; why not explore those options? Reach out to friends, ex-colleagues, whatever.
In the meantime, make it clear that you feel unsupported and unrecognised, and that these are dealbreakers for you if not fixed quickly and decisively. If your manager doesn't listen, set up a skip-level meeting. If your skip-level doesn't listen, well, that's an even better sign that you should be planning your exit. If either of them do listen, you have a strong chance of either a) getting a raise and renewed support or b) understanding the situation better (which, though it doesn't always solve the situation, can remove some stress / toxicity from it.)
If you feel you deserve the lead role, say that directly! Provide evidence to support your position - not just technical things you've built / shipped, but also (especially?) anything where you've helped organise work for others, or communicated changes outwards, or worked with Product / Design effectively, etc.
As a small counterpoint: if you feel that you've been doing an extraordinary amount of effort, and they just cut a bunch of people, it may be that the team does need an extra person! No one should be in the position of needing to put in extraordinary effort for 3 years. For the vast majority of people, that leads to burnout; this is especially true in the stressful environment of mass layoffs, where people are often asked to do extra work to cover for their coworkers who were fired.