Very nice, I also like the other yojijukugo displayed at the bottom, especially jyuunintoiro. I enjoy (what I perceive as) the subtle wordplay of having two different readings of the same character (ten) in the word, hinting at the sort of "more than one way to skin a cat" theme of the word.
Literally, the characters are "ten people ten colors", but the two "tens" are read differently: "jyuu" and "to" respectively, because the same character can have multiple readings.
Yojijukugo are really fun, I've written about them a bit here if anyone wants more context: https://jm.dev/yojijukugo
In some sense yojijukugo are the original memes, in that they can be riffed off for humorous purposes. For example, the Japanese idiom for "the strong devour the weak" is 弱肉強食 jakuniku kyuushoku (the meat of the weak is the food of the strong), but you can instead say 焼肉定食 yakuniku teishoku (lit. grilled meat set meal) for laughs, and rakugo comedian Jakusaburo Katsura released an album called 雀肉共食 jakuniku kyuushoku (same reading, but meaning "let's eat sparrow meat together" and referring to his own name).
Japanese is a wonderful language for puns. Not only do they have homophone puns (so many homophones) and rhyming puns, but also visual puns like Katamari Damacy 塊魂.
I always joke with my wife that my favorite yojijukugo are 問題解決 and 安全第一 which are literally just "problem solving" and "safety first" haha.
My favorite actual yojijukugo is 点滴穿石 which water dripping on a stone in the same spot slowly wears it away, which just means if you keep doing what you're doing you will eventually make some noticeable progress in the long run.
Russian language has an idiom similar to 点滴穿石 - "капля камень точит", literally "a drip grinds a stone", i.e. small but persistent effort eventually overpowers even the most hardy obstacles
I'd bet that many languages have this idiom. I know it in Latin, Italian and German:
- gutta cavat lapidem
- la goccia scava la pietra
- steter Tropfen höhlt den Stein
Literally it's "reply" together with a term for an actor performing a work that they also wrote. And together the phrase is net slang for sock-puppeting.
> 自作自演 (jisakujien ; self-made self-staged ; for example, used for the act of creating a staged situation and then acting as if it were genuine)
The original meaning was a screenwriter-actor performing the script they wrote, which is a perfectly fine thing to do. It can mean 'sockpuppeting', too, and that other use might be more common nowadays, though.
It makes for a fun bridging the gap cultural experience when talking to Chinese people about the Chinese idioms you learn in Japanese class. Even the pronunciation is so similar (I mean, of course it is, duh).
My favorite one is 吴越同舟 or 呉越同舟 (Wú Yuè tóng zhōu) meaning people of different backgrounds finding themselves having to work together.
It's indeed a regrettable circumstance that the diplomatic ties between the two countries don't reflect their cultural similarities. My parents, who are Chinese and in their 60s, managed to travel around Japan without knowing Japanese or English. They successfully took trains, hailed taxis, and communicated with locals using just a pen and paper, ultimately enjoying their trip.
Beyond idiomatic yojijukugo (or perhaps because of it?), 4 mora abbreviations seems to be really common in Japanese. E.g. "debadora" for "device driver" [1]
They are indeed. I participated in phonology seminar in Tokyo U years back, and it was very interesting. According to the prof, Japanese phonology definitely has a tendency to use "moraic foots", that is, units of two mora, as a preferred unit of morphophonologic processes, which then maps to abbreviations of two-word phrases where each of the words get their own foot: deba-dora.
I'd say that yojijukugo are not necessarily directly related, as the readings of the kanji can be one or two mora, so there's some variability in the structure of the readings of yojijukugo.
That being said, people often say that because of moras and foots, syllables have no place in Japanese phonology, but that's not true. Japanese pitch accent patterns (of Tokyo Japanese) depend on the syllabic structure.
Just to make it clear, this doesn't only apply to imported words (although it's probably where it's more common). It works for purely Japanese words too. For example: なるはや (naruhaya) is a 4 mora abbreviation of なるべく早く (narubeku hayaku). Another one: あけおめ (akeome) is an abbreviation of 明けましておめでとうございます (akemashite omedetougozaimasu)
> Having a high say-do ratio has always been important to me
You probably mean a "high do-say ratio"? That is, to complete as many things as you set out to do.
Great story though, it reminds me a bit of how the German language has individual words to describe specific intents and feelings. Of course the German equivalents are far more verbose!
I know I’m being pedantic, but that would be a low ratio.
But I understand the point being made and my pedantry just a peculiarity of English meaning having a strong word order dependence than many other languages.
Just to throw another variable in there, the clause about the ratio is separated from the one about completing things, by the conjunction "but," indicating opposition. So it can be read as something like "I've always prioritized communication" (high say-do ratio, as written) "...BUT, I wanted to" (make a change and) "strategize seeing things through." Probably not what was meant, but plausible and one of the possibilities I considered when I noticed the thing you noticed!
That's actually interesting, because if they'd said low ratio, it would probably have confused people. I think it's math having the strong order dependence; when people say a high a to b ratio, they likely mean a 'good' ratio contextually instead of mathematically high.
It seems that 矢志不渝 [1] is a more close analogue in that this exact four-letter form is always used. The Korean version is substantially different too, it's 初志一貫 (초지일관 Chojiilgwan).
As a Chinese person, I perceive "初志" as having a connotation of "original" or "initial" intentions, whereas "矢志" simply implies determined wishes or promises without emphasizing the "initial" aspect. While I'm not an expert in Japanese, my understanding is based on the Chinese perspective, and the actual meaning in Japanese might differ. It's intriguing to see how these nuances can vary across languages and cultures.
I personally analyze 初志一貫 as simply being consistent (一貫) from the beginning (初志), not necessarily retaining the original subject (only implied). I believe this is the most frequent Korean interpretation because 初志 초지 is not a common Korean word (its synonym 初心 초심 is common) and 初志一貫 is probably the only phrase you can find this word.
While making perfect sense, it just feels slightly weird due to the order and IMHO less beautiful to its equivalent. In Chinese it’s 不渝 “unshakable” instead of 贯彻(insist)
This is my first time encounter with this particular 4-character idiom. As a Chinese person, I'm amazed by my ability to comprehend both the writing and the underlying meaning effortlessly. In China, a similar sentiment is more commonly expressed as 坚持初心 (jiān chí chū xīn).
Interestingly, this phrase has gained significance (a buzz world in politics) since Xi came to power a decade ago, that party members should remain steadfast in upholding the original mission of the Communist Party...
So many are taken over verbatim from Chinese. There are some very comprehensive Yojijukugo (literally just meaning former character compound word) collections on the net like
Sometimes you will have to map between simplified Chinese characters and modern Japanese characters. Easy enough though, since they still look very similar.
Japanese has 熟語 jukugo, which is similar (if I understand the concept of a chengyu correctly): a set phrase of Chinese characters. The famous case are the 4 character set phrases, 四字熟語 yojijukugo, which are mentioned in the article, but there are other kinds too.
Besides that, there is 慣用句 kanyouku, which means just an idiom in general, and isn't restricted to kanji expressions. And 決まり文句 kimarimonku, which means something like a "cliche phrase".
This is indeed a commonly used chengyu with similar meaning. But I perceive "初志" as having a connotation of "original" or "initial" intentions, whereas "矢志" simply implies determined wishes or promises without emphasizing the "initial" aspect. While I'm not an expert in Japanese, my understanding is based on the Chinese perspective, and the actual meaning of "初志" in Japanese might differ.
Sharing some Korean Yojijukugos (originating from China)
위록지마(謂鹿止馬) wii rok ji ma
To point at a deer and call it a horse. Used for suck ups who says agrees to things that are clearly not right.
읍참마속(泣斬馬謖) ub cham ma sok
To behead Ma Su (name) while crying. In the Romance of Three Kingdoms, Zhuge Liang had to behead his favourite general Ma Su as he wept because Ma Su ignored the given command resulting in losing the war. This is used when you have to be fair for the greater good.
There are also fake yojijukugos which were created on online forums. These are not based on Chinese characters but made by taking letters from Korean phrases. But they caught on because they kinda sound like real yojijikugos :D
내로남불 nae ro nam bul
Romance for me, but adultery for you. Used for people who are lenient to themselves but strict to others.
자강두천 ja gang doo cheon
Fight of two strong-sprited geniuses. Used when two strong characters butt head with each other.
Haha, I did think about using the Korean word instead but just decided to go with the flow. East Asian culture is so intertwined, it's a pity we all have such a love-hate relationship with each other.
Here's another interesting one that gamers might recognize, JP-from-CN:
> 竜頭蛇尾 (ryuutou dabi) "Dragon head, snake tail"
Blizzard's Overwatch team decided that would make a cool family motto for a ninja clan, so it features prominently in the game's launch cinematic and some in-game areas. But they apparently never looked up the meaning, which is basically "starting strong but ending weak", or just "anticlimactic".
>위록지마(謂鹿止馬) wii rok ji ma
To point at a deer and call it a horse. Used for suck ups who says agrees to things that are clearly not right.
Adding a little bit of context to this: This seems to be the same origin as the Japanese word baka: 馬鹿 which means stupid and is the combination of the word Horse（馬） and deer (鹿). It has a quite funny background story[1] from ancient China:
>Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law. Thereafter the officials were all terrified of Zhao Gao.
The English wiki is a bit kind to him, because in the original one it wasn't "put before the law" but killed/executed. So the "fool/stupid" person is not the one that called a deer a horse, but the ones that didn't
When indigenous Mexicans first met Spaniards, they described their horses (which are not native to the New World, so they had never seen before) as “a sort of giant deer”.
It’s totally off-topic here but I always thought that was interesting.
There were actually horses in the new world, it's just that the natives hunted them all to extinction well before the Europeans arrived. Likewise with most other "mega fuana" in North America. There's also theories that climate changes played a role in addition to over exploitation.
True, but to be clear, they had gone extinct thousands of years before the Spanish brought them back, so the natives in the early 16th century had no way of knowing about them.
References to the emperor’s new clothes seem to be focused on the moment when the lie everyone is going along with finally gets revealed, though. I think the English equivalent is more like “brown nosing.”
I wonder how much further ahead of western cultures, eastern asian cultures would have been if they didn't kill (or commit suicide) every time someone made a mistake.
Ma Su is also relevant because Zhuge Liang was repeatedly warned that Ma Su had more head knowledge than ability so should not receive a major command. Zhuge Liang's emotions and admiration cost him not only the campaign, but a dear friend.
> 위록지마(謂鹿止馬) wii rok ji ma
> To point at a deer and call it a horse.
Very common South Indian proverb. Of course, our version goes -
To point at a donkey and call it a horse.
I guess because donkeys are way more common than deer in South India. I'm curious about the etymology. Did it really originate in China ? If so, how come its so commonly used in South India ? The Chinese monks Faxian[1] and Xuanzang[2] visited India during the 5th/7th AD...the proverb came along with them ?
The phrase comes from Sima Qian's "The Records of the Grand Historian" written in 94BCE. Zhao Gao was a eunuch and hid the first Emperor's death and schemed to have the rightful heir killed. Zhao installed a puppet and tested everyone's loyalty by declaring a stag a horse and dared anyone to question him.
Rather than set a lofty goal you're more likely to give up on (leaving you having accomplished nothing), simply look for ways in which you can do/be better than you were before.
I really like this. At some point fairly early in my life, teenage years I think, I decided that it is a fact that anything I commit to myself that I'll do, I will indeed do. I don't recall exactly when or how it happened, but I do know it's something consciously decided was the case.
As far as I could tell at the time, it had been true for any "serious" commitments thus far, and it's kind of a comforting feeling that if something is in your control, and you decide to do it, it will happen. Having made that affirmation, it because somewhat self-reinforcing, because even when something got hard, I didn't want to break the streak, and thereby... I guess, no longer be able to rely on myself in the same way. I think it's meant both that I'm somewhat careful about what I truly commit to myself to do, but also that I always have extra motivation when I do. (And of course, some degree of after-the-fact rationalization helps too; I'm sure I've consciously let myself off the hook on occasion when the situation changes.)
Anyway, that's a lot of rambling to basically say I think I've been practicing shoshikantetsu most of my life without knowing the term.
Carrying out the original intent (going on the run), even in a lesser form than the ideal (going slower than usual), helps to reinforce the habit. Ultimately, this is about mastering the art of showing up.
This concept is closely related to the “Two-Minute Rule” proposed by James Clear, of Atomic Habits fame. Showing up consistently, even in small ways, helps build momentum and leads to significant accomplishments over time.
I always say this to my kids when they don’t feel like doing some habit: just half arse it.
Another phrase I use is: if something is worth doing, it’s worth doing poorly.
I run 12km every day, but some days I don’t get out until the afternoon, like today, and it was 30 degrees C and I could only run 8kms and when I got to the bottom of the hill at the 8km mark I couldn’t run up it and just walked the remaining 4km home.
Imagine if I didn’t even go on the run because I was worried I wouldn’t be able to make it the whole way.
> I'm currently experimenting with doing 30 minutes of enjoyable, productive activities once a day for 7 days
Carrying out your original intent is sometimes not possible. It's called whisky dick. But who knows; you might end up having a good conversation instead of your planned run. Turn off whatever app you use to manage yourself. Fuck up sometimes. Refusing to go on a run is just as good as going on one, usually better.
Here is another one, though admittedly I don't know its direct translation.
Shisakanku
It means something like "point and do" (probably completely wrong but should capture the essence) and it's a technique to help avoid mistakes which I found actually works.
Needless to say, I was also weirdly fascinated with it the first time I heard of it.
I write passion project software, and I decided a while ago that I would do at least one commit per day, even if it is just updating todo.txt or writing a one-line comment. It has served me well.
I can't say that I've had a perfect streak, but I've had streaks spanning weeks and months long when I was productive on this project.
I call the strategy 'lowering the bar'. As an old, I now set all my goals to be so small that I have almost achieved them merely by waking each morning.
I like to say that I have lowered my bar so much that I can roll over it while laying on the floor. I am very successful in accomplishing my 'original intent'. Consequently, my life is nearly perfect.
There are thousands of 4 letter idioms in Chinese and I believe in Japanese too, a very common game in China is a group of people each say a 4 letter idiom and next person say another that starts with the last letter of the last one said.
113 comments
[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 190 ms ] threadLiterally, the characters are "ten people ten colors", but the two "tens" are read differently: "jyuu" and "to" respectively, because the same character can have multiple readings.
Yojijukugo are really fun, I've written about them a bit here if anyone wants more context: https://jm.dev/yojijukugo
名演 (great acting performance) -> 迷演 (baffling performance)
国道 (highway) -> 酷道 (road in terrible condition)
There are also some horrible ones like 毒女(独女) and 害人（外人）
Also 休館日 (museum holiday day) -> 休肝日 ("give your liver a rest day" - i.e. sober day)
My favorite actual yojijukugo is 点滴穿石 which water dripping on a stone in the same spot slowly wears it away, which just means if you keep doing what you're doing you will eventually make some noticeable progress in the long run.
一石二鳥 (issekinichou ; literally: one stone, two birds ; I'll let you guess the meaning (yes, it's very close to an expression in English))
自業自得 (jigoujitoku ; reap what you sow)
自作自演 (jisakujien ; self-made self-staged ; for example, used for the act of creating a staged situation and then acting as if it were genuine)
自問自答 (jimonjitou ; answering one's own question)
自暴自棄 (jiboujiki ; self-abandonment)
自画自賛 (jigajisan ; singing one's own praises)
自給自足 (jikyuujisoku ; self-sufficiency)
自由自在 (jiyuujizai ; free/unrestricted)
(Yeah, I have a thing for the 自◯自◯ ones)
自演リプ (jien-ripu)
Literally it's "reply" together with a term for an actor performing a work that they also wrote. And together the phrase is net slang for sock-puppeting.
The original meaning was a screenwriter-actor performing the script they wrote, which is a perfectly fine thing to do. It can mean 'sockpuppeting', too, and that other use might be more common nowadays, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengyu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yojijukugo
My favorite one is 吴越同舟 or 呉越同舟 (Wú Yuè tóng zhōu) meaning people of different backgrounds finding themselves having to work together.
https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E5%90%B4%E8%B6%8A%E5%90%8C%E8%88%...
https://jisho.org/word/%E5%91%89%E8%B6%8A%E5%90%8C%E8%88%9F
If only the two countries were as close diplomatically as they are in their shared culture.
https://openlibrary.org/works/OL27733147W/Kanji_idioms?editi...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798995
I'd say that yojijukugo are not necessarily directly related, as the readings of the kanji can be one or two mora, so there's some variability in the structure of the readings of yojijukugo.
You probably mean a "high do-say ratio"? That is, to complete as many things as you set out to do.
Great story though, it reminds me a bit of how the German language has individual words to describe specific intents and feelings. Of course the German equivalents are far more verbose!
But I understand the point being made and my pedantry just a peculiarity of English meaning having a strong word order dependence than many other languages.
I mean, sure there's variations (e.g. not all languages have "saudade" or "schadenfreude") but it seems a pretty basic group of words.
Do these characters make sense as a Chinese phrase as well?
Chū zhì guàn chè ?
[1] https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%9F%A2%E5%BF%97%E4%B8%8D%E6%...
Interestingly, this phrase has gained significance (a buzz world in politics) since Xi came to power a decade ago, that party members should remain steadfast in upholding the original mission of the Communist Party...
https://yoji-jukugo.com/
Sometimes you will have to map between simplified Chinese characters and modern Japanese characters. Easy enough though, since they still look very similar.
Besides that, there is 慣用句 kanyouku, which means just an idiom in general, and isn't restricted to kanji expressions. And 決まり文句 kimarimonku, which means something like a "cliche phrase".
It’s common to use this to express love as well - love is unshakable
위록지마(謂鹿止馬) wii rok ji ma
To point at a deer and call it a horse. Used for suck ups who says agrees to things that are clearly not right.
읍참마속(泣斬馬謖) ub cham ma sok
To behead Ma Su (name) while crying. In the Romance of Three Kingdoms, Zhuge Liang had to behead his favourite general Ma Su as he wept because Ma Su ignored the given command resulting in losing the war. This is used when you have to be fair for the greater good.
There are also fake yojijukugos which were created on online forums. These are not based on Chinese characters but made by taking letters from Korean phrases. But they caught on because they kinda sound like real yojijikugos :D
내로남불 nae ro nam bul
Romance for me, but adultery for you. Used for people who are lenient to themselves but strict to others.
자강두천 ja gang doo cheon
Fight of two strong-sprited geniuses. Used when two strong characters butt head with each other.
This is neither here nor there, but you have me in stitches for using Japanese to refer to Chinese sayings to describe Korean (sub)culture.
> 竜頭蛇尾 (ryuutou dabi) "Dragon head, snake tail"
Blizzard's Overwatch team decided that would make a cool family motto for a ninja clan, so it features prominently in the game's launch cinematic and some in-game areas. But they apparently never looked up the meaning, which is basically "starting strong but ending weak", or just "anticlimactic".
Adding a little bit of context to this: This seems to be the same origin as the Japanese word baka: 馬鹿 which means stupid and is the combination of the word Horse（馬） and deer (鹿). It has a quite funny background story[1] from ancient China:
>Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law. Thereafter the officials were all terrified of Zhao Gao.
The English wiki is a bit kind to him, because in the original one it wasn't "put before the law" but killed/executed. So the "fool/stupid" person is not the one that called a deer a horse, but the ones that didn't
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baka_(Japanese_word)
When indigenous Mexicans first met Spaniards, they described their horses (which are not native to the New World, so they had never seen before) as “a sort of giant deer”.
It’s totally off-topic here but I always thought that was interesting.
Love this. A good English equivalent is “the emperor’s new clothes.”
I wonder how much further ahead of western cultures, eastern asian cultures would have been if they didn't kill (or commit suicide) every time someone made a mistake.
Very common South Indian proverb. Of course, our version goes -
To point at a donkey and call it a horse.
I guess because donkeys are way more common than deer in South India. I'm curious about the etymology. Did it really originate in China ? If so, how come its so commonly used in South India ? The Chinese monks Faxian[1] and Xuanzang[2] visited India during the 5th/7th AD...the proverb came along with them ?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxian [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang
https://cesnur.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/tjoc_6_4_5_che...
Rather than set a lofty goal you're more likely to give up on (leaving you having accomplished nothing), simply look for ways in which you can do/be better than you were before.
There are no big homeruns, but I feel like a different kind of person.
To paraphrase "Build what you can (and love), until you love to build."
As far as I could tell at the time, it had been true for any "serious" commitments thus far, and it's kind of a comforting feeling that if something is in your control, and you decide to do it, it will happen. Having made that affirmation, it because somewhat self-reinforcing, because even when something got hard, I didn't want to break the streak, and thereby... I guess, no longer be able to rely on myself in the same way. I think it's meant both that I'm somewhat careful about what I truly commit to myself to do, but also that I always have extra motivation when I do. (And of course, some degree of after-the-fact rationalization helps too; I'm sure I've consciously let myself off the hook on occasion when the situation changes.)
Anyway, that's a lot of rambling to basically say I think I've been practicing shoshikantetsu most of my life without knowing the term.
This concept is closely related to the “Two-Minute Rule” proposed by James Clear, of Atomic Habits fame. Showing up consistently, even in small ways, helps build momentum and leads to significant accomplishments over time.
https://jamesclear.com/how-to-stop-procrastinating
Another phrase I use is: if something is worth doing, it’s worth doing poorly.
I run 12km every day, but some days I don’t get out until the afternoon, like today, and it was 30 degrees C and I could only run 8kms and when I got to the bottom of the hill at the 8km mark I couldn’t run up it and just walked the remaining 4km home.
Imagine if I didn’t even go on the run because I was worried I wouldn’t be able to make it the whole way.
“We really need to whole-ass this one.”
I also keep coming back to this phrase. I believe this is the source (G.K. Chesterton, What's Wrong with the World): https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1717/1717-h/1717-h.htm#link2...
Carrying out your original intent is sometimes not possible. It's called whisky dick. But who knows; you might end up having a good conversation instead of your planned run. Turn off whatever app you use to manage yourself. Fuck up sometimes. Refusing to go on a run is just as good as going on one, usually better.
Shisakanku
It means something like "point and do" (probably completely wrong but should capture the essence) and it's a technique to help avoid mistakes which I found actually works.
Needless to say, I was also weirdly fascinated with it the first time I heard of it.
You can see it in action here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Av_Kkh3mp4E
Dictionary entry: https://jisho.org/word/%E6%8C%87%E5%B7%AE%E5%96%9A%E5%91%BC
https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Have-Word-Complete-Thought/d...
I can't say that I've had a perfect streak, but I've had streaks spanning weeks and months long when I was productive on this project.
I like to say that I have lowered my bar so much that I can roll over it while laying on the floor. I am very successful in accomplishing my 'original intent'. Consequently, my life is nearly perfect.