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Tell HN: Putting mirrors around my desk improved my posture

206 points by cushpush ↗ HN
Last year I purchased 2 standing mirrors, one that stands astride my monitor viewing area, but is ahead in the distance about 7 feet, and one that is directly lateral to me, that lets me check my posture every so often. I think the lack of good data for "how I'm sitting" can result in unsavory posture choices throughout the day, so by adding data or visibility to the equation, I am now able to do something about it. Sure, you can do it with one mirror, but something about having two distinct angles gives extra nuance for tilt and lean.

105 comments

[ 6.1 ms ] story [ 178 ms ] thread
JimtheCoder
If I put mirrors around my desk, I would just spend all day looking at myself...
Darmody
Flexing to see my gains. Yes.
hluska
In my case, wondering how two good looking parents could have someone who looks like a puppet…:)

I like yours more.

anon84873628
No worse than only looking at myself in the video call. Why doesn't every app put yourself directly under the camera by default??
dalmo3
This but unironically. I had a mirror next to my desk for a while and ended up having to move it out of sight as it was distracting.
grugagag
Maybe until the novelty gets old but then turns to glimpses here and there.
garrisonj
I legitimately might try this.
anon84873628
As soon as I saw the title I thought, dang that is a good idea. I doubt I have the space/angles for it though.
zamalek
Keep in mind that classical wisdom about posture is cooked-up nonsense. Remember that it was the same people who had women balancing bowls of water on their head and wearing corsets who came up with these ideas.

An actually good posture consists of two things: whatever feels comfortable, and changing your posture over the day.

progbits
I'm most comfortable curled up like a shrimp and I'm absolutely certain that isn't good for me, so I'm not sure your statement is entirely true. :)
AQuantized
So long as you don't stay like that all the time and vary your posture, it's probably not as negative as popularly assumed. Moving a lot is more important than assuming some static 'optimal' posture.
ramraj07
So ever since lockdown I've pretty much spend like 18 hours a day on my bed: I sleep there and I do most of my work fromnthere, including meetings, debugging and mild coding. I only get up to eat and work out and if I'm typing a lot. Haven't noticed any issues till now. Let's see how my spine turns out!
sublinear
Same here except not 18 hours. More like 12 hours (sleep + half the working day). The other half of the working day is sitting. I change positions whenever I feel like it which is about every 45 mins.
jazzyjackson
"the most ergonomic position is the next one"
hammock
Not sure I buy that. Retracted scapula, engaged core, a few other things a PT could tell you makes the most efficient use of your posterior chain and thereby reduces fatigue and risk of injury

Can you get away with not doing it? Sure. Just like you can do deadlifts with a rounded back (to a point), or drive without using your turn signal, or swim using the doggy paddle. But is it good for you?

bckr
A good PT would also tell you exactly what GP is saying: You can’t just “fix your posture”— you have to change positions and move about every 30 minutes or more to avoid injuries.
modeless
I agree totally that the standard advice about posture and ergonomics is unscientific nonsense. And changing posture is good. However, it is definitely possible for a posture that feels comfortable to be bad for you. Some are better than others.
NoZebra120vClip
I am not sure exactly what problems you have with corsets, but they are undoubtedly based on modern myths that were invented after corsets fell out of fashion. Corsets themselves (and stays and bodices and other shapewear) are actually very comfortable and beneficial for a woman to wear. Just ask the likes of Jill Bearup or Bernadette Banner.

Historical costumers really bristle at the lousy attitude of Hollywood actresses who whine and complain about "painful corsets" because their stylists (and producers) didn't know the first thing about the garments and historical periods they were charged with representing.

djtango
Balancing water on your head actually sounds like a good way to learn spinal control!
thenerdhead
I don't know, I think posture is pretty common sense. It is especially more eye opening when you're more aware of your posture, correct it regularly, and magically your chronic back pain and regular headaches suddenly disappear.
detrites
And your RSI, and even apnea insomnia, unbelievable as it may seem. But, given posture affects circulation and that can affect everything, maybe that makes reasonable sense, and could involve say, brain circulation and oxygenation.
detrites
That's rather silly advice, as depending on the person it may be self-contradictory and, so, impossible to actually follow. "Whatever feels comfortable" can be "staying in one great position and not changing it as everything else is pain".
edgefield
I thought about trying this exact same idea for my indoor bike. Posture is also key for cycling.
melx
I guess you mean road cycling.

I would advise to get bike fitting service, it's not that expensive and will save you a lot in long term.

pulpfictional
You should be standing, not sitting. Sitting is quite detrimental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l5I4M8BMlE

ramraj07
Standing can be detrimental too if you do it all day:

> But that doesn’t mean you should stand all day, either. “Repeated, long-term exposure to standing also has been implicated in the development of serious health problems,” Chambers told us over email. She said that standing for the majority of your workday—as people in retail, manufacturing, and health care do—could lead to degenerative joint damage, muscle injury, and circulatory diseases such as venous disorders, increased stroke risk, and carotid atherosclerosis. So fixed-height standing desk setups—like many DIY kinds—aren’t ideal either if you’re spending long hours working at them.

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-standing-des...

pulpfictional
The article does not back that claim with a citation.

One should be active and mobile every day, in my opinion.

throwaway290
Can be standing without being mobile, but yes standing makes it easier to be mobile
kmoser
An adjustable height standing desk is the best of all worlds: you can stand or sit. You can even be mobile by getting a treadmill desk.
progbits
This seems like as good place to ask as any: Kinect and similar cameras can do posture estimation. Anyone tried that for bad posture alerts?
_neil
I haven’t tried it yet but have been thinking about it. It seems like you’d want front/side views to detect leaning. Kinects would work but you could also use old iPhones with ARKit or any camera connected to mediapipe.
ToJans
If anyone's interested: I wrote a small free app that runs completely client-side in the browser via your webcam, and gives an audible alert if your posture changes:

https://ppp.virtualsaleslab.com

bckr
Thanks for sharing this.

The physical therapists I’ve talked to have been very clear that staying in the same position for too long is a primary driver of pain.

So, I’m not sure if this is a whole solution.

sshine
I always shifted position every 15 minutes as a reflex. Sometimes I sit on one leg, other times both legs, other times normally. So there is no “correct” height for me; detecting a slump would require more thorough analysis than mere height in seat.
therealdrag0
I recently heard someone in the space say recent evidence says posture is mostly irrelevant to back pain, it’s at least not root cause, tho maybe an aggregator?
hanniabu
Muscle imbalance and tightness is a large cause of back pain and sitting at a desk and slouching contributes to muscle imbalance and tightness
therealdrag0
But is it more the sitting at the desk or more the slouching? How is slouching contributing to the muscle imbalance and tightness? And if you otherwise do counteracting stretching and strengthening does the slouching matter?
unaindz
In my experience paying attention to sitting straight made back pain worse, the only solution was to start laying down and with a lesser effect change postures. Sitting with one leg horizontally on the seat from time to time feels great for my back.
grugagag
> In my experience paying attention to sitting straight made back pain worse

In one’s mind sitting straight can be actually wrong as in sticking the neck out in an unnatural position or something like that. Mirrors help as well but more important is proper ergonomics: keyboard closer to body and within reach so that elbows sit close to the body, then desk height, chair height, position of feet on the ground and so on. In my 20s I suffered a lot and now in my 40s I rarely experience any back pain and don’t require any special chair either anymore. I also do not lean on the back rest 90% of the day.

ToJans
Interesting feedback. Adding the option to beep when you stay too long in the same posture shouldn't be too hard...
dilly_li
Nice! Can you add an option to make the beep nonstop whenever the posture is poor? A single beep sound might not be strong enough for me to notice.
ToJans
I'll have to dig up the source somewhere, but I'll see what I can do.
happytoexplain
This is great, I'm definitely going to try leaving this on all the time.
notum
Very cool! Unfortunately it's not working with gimbal/tracking/panning cameras :(
ToJans
True; it was a quick hack, so I didn't consider these kind of things.
iamcreasy
Very interesting. Does it work similarly well on built in and external web cam?
ToJans
I don't see why not?
ensocode
Hi Tom, this is a nice solution. Is it open source? You wrote its completely client-side. Which libraries do you use for the posture recognition? I only know python mediapipe, opencv to achive this.
dghughes
My job for many years had me walking a lot. Up and down stairs often dozens of times a day a double set of stairs so two story equivalent. Plus crawling around running cable on floors or in ceilings. Lifting equipment from 50 to 300 pounds (with assistance).

Now I'm at a desk and two years on I often catch myself shaped like an S. Engrossed in a problem my posture has become bad. Plus I haven't done any exercise in two years so my muscle tone and cardiovascular has has never been worse.

Last week whatever I did or whatever series of events led up to it my right shoulder just exploded in pain. My clavicle at my neck was popping, my muscles felt like they were being pulled downward by an invisible meat hook stuck in my shoulder.

I took a day off, took some anti-inflammatory pain killers. But it took a good week to get over it.

I blame my poor posture and being desk-bound but my poor health also had a part in it.

grugagag
Yes, being desk bound has nasty effects on the body. But proper desk hygiene can mitigate a lot of it except for the lack of movement which has to be compensated somehow: daily 1 hour walking or other type of workout.
scrapcode
Although I never finished it, the first couple handful of pages in Deskbound: Standing Up to a Sitting World really frame sitting as a pretty scary activity [0]. I still fail to set reminders and catch myself sitting for prolonged periods, but it has gotten better.

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/22557522

mmsnberbar66
I got a monitor that gives me rest reminders every X minutes. Runs reliably regardless of input (console, PC), no need to do it on your OS.
bluehorseray
Maybe I'm wrong, but I find the discussion around "reminding" yourself to have good posture off-base. It's like saying that if you want larger biceps, you should walk around with your biceps flexed all day. I feel like the important part is strengthening your postural muscles, and then just living normally
mnky9800n
How do you recommend strengthening your postural muscles
__MatrixMan__
Core and back stuff. Dead lifts, planks, rows, climbing.
CPLX
It doesn’t work that way.

I mean you’re not wrong, being stronger is certainly relevant to being able to hold posture.

But I got myself up to lifting quite large amounts of weight and it had literally no effect on posture at all, at some point or another you have to also change your habits.

01100011
Each person is different, but for me weight training helped a bit with back pain and a little bit of posture, but fixing my posture is a completely separate(and ongoing) activity.

For me, good posture starts with awareness. I have poor proprioception so unless I see myself hunched in a mirror I'm not aware I'm doing it. I am a very narrow-focused person though.

The other part of posture is just working at it long enough to build a connection to those important muscles. Teaching someone to have good posture is like teaching someone to wiggle their ears. Some people were born with that control and other people just don't even know what to do, mentally, to activate those signals.

Final part is to adjust what feels 'right' so that keeping your chest out more, your head back, spinal curves not too far in either direction, etc, all feels natural. I fight with the feeling that I look like a jerk when I'm just holding proper posture.

That all said, I think focusing squarely on your lats and lower traps can be a good starting point for folks looking to fix their posture. Yes, it's more than that, but it was one thing that helped, in addition to everything above, for me.

numpad0
It also helps to sit on a good chair, which isn’t necessarily the most comfortable. I currently sit on a used front seat from some ~1995 Subaru, and it used to be horribly uncomfortable but it forced me so hard to face forward and upright that I eventually got used to, which likely is not too far from a correct posture. That implies how wrong I am to be on this prestigious forum - but it helped my posture far more than a comfortable chair that faithfully held my body at a “sack of potato” posture.
smolder
I went from an office chair with arms I would lean on, to a regular folding steel chair with a cushion on it. It has forced me to hold myself upright and has thus fixed some occasional pains I was having from bad posture.
grugagag
Yes, a facny chair can give you the false comfort of sitting in a poor posture and making bad habits. I prefer simple non swivel chairs for better posture and better grounding.
__MatrixMan__
For me, something about having the muscles near my problem areas be stronger put me in a mode where I was suddenly more conscious of my posture. It was like I couldn't even remember what normal felt like, so consciously guiding myself to a more healthy normal was easy because there was no habitual state to fall back to.
winrid
Daily morning plank helps me a lot. I try to do a minute every day.

You need to consciously fix your posture. Talk to a specialist. They will show you how you are supposed to sit/stand, and it will take months of work to fix it and create the new habit of standing/sitting properly and not like a potato :P

__MatrixMan__
+1 for "talk to a specialist". I try to stick with insurance that doesn't require a referral so I can just walk into a physical therapist.
numpad0
If nothing works, and you’re so lazy and powerless that you might as well be a human crash dummy, and you don’t mind it being childish, buy a Nintendo Switch(removable Joy-Cons are required!) and play Ring Fit Adventure for 10 minutes a day. Note, you should cheat the squatting; that part isn’t well designed and will damage your knees.

Feel free to pick workouts that seem to disproportionately rewards your progress. Absolutely ignore that the game might say “very light workout: 50 calories burned”.

In a week or two, you will find yourself no longer having absolute zero core muscle && lower body mobility && sense of balance. Allowing yourself to easy workouts isn’t a self disservice either, it leads to training more diverse muscles, which would not occur by just looking up a single be-all workout solution to train specific muscles then failing to follow through.

Standalone USB controller charger and a cheap USB soundcard might be useful too in conjunction with above.

carom
YTWLs with a light band are the #1.

Stretch and open your chest. Loop a band around a rack and around your head and turn your head side to side against the band's resistance.

Rows. Flyes. Good mornings. Shrugs. Wide pull ups.

Practice moving with good posture. Do you lose it when you pick something up?

Roll your shoulders up, back, then down. Walk with your chest forward. It will feel exaggerated.

jahewson
You can’t strengthen muscles that haven’t been stretched properly. Bad posture limits the range of motion, shortens the muscles and causes trigger points. Bad posture is like training the wrong way for 8 hours a day. It’s a problem that has to be attacked from all angles - posture, stretch, massage, core strength.
vladvasiliu
This.

I've been fairly active for the last five or so years, lifting weights and walking more. While it has absolutely improved my overall posture, I still regularly catch myself slouching in front of the computer.

It's just so easy to let yourself go, especially when I'm deep in thought for prolonger periods of time. Paradoxically WFH has had a negative effect on this particular point, since I can go for hours on end without anyone distracting me (but it's been positive on the whole since I can easier program my workouts and meals).

aflukasz
Have exactly same issue. I use a stopwatch on my watch, set it for 45 minutes, and every time it goes off, I force myself to do some short useful activity. This may be:

- a short stretch,

- a short light weight lifting session,

- making a coffee,

- cleaning up a small part of the house,

- doing a small step of any other physical chore.

Those can take 10 seconds or 5-10 minutes, depending on the activity. Usually there will be 1-2 longer breaks of this kind, and the rest are the shorter ones.

I especially like how some house chores goes away thanks to this!

wreath
What does the accumulation of muscle strength have to do with stretching?
nroets
For many people it's a bad habit possibly due to performing certain tasks like manufacturing things at a desk. Similar bad habits: chewing with an open mouth, mouth breathing or using filler words.

By spending enough time in the right position, you will instantly know when your posture is wrong.

thenerdhead
You can have a strong core and still have bad posture.

Being more aware helps you correct it. Mirrors are a great way to do that. Not honestly sure how your bicep comparison is relevant, but people look in front of mirrors to correct form for their bicep curls too.

chis
If anyone’s wondering this is totally incorrect. In fact any guide for posture correction on the internet will recommend tons of focus on body awareness until you retrain movement patterns.
cpp_frog
Slightly related: Does anyone else can't concentrate for long periods of time while sitting in front of a computer? I have mild scoliosis and a fear of varicocele (if that's relevant), and fortunately my work involves implementation of numerical algorithms/problem solving that I can first sketch on a notebook while laying on my bed and finally be coded sitting -on a rush-. Same with reading books. I'm thinking of purchasing a one-sided divan sofa and put it next to my desktop.
Liquix
A height adjustable desk is worth looking into if you don't already have one. Alternating between sitting and standing every 30-60 minutes is great for posture fatigue.
numpad0
I’ve heard that some people even attempt to maximize walking time when important deadlines are close, because putting on serious faces and pretending to be productive at their desk is anecdotally so counterproductive to them. I think there are much to be discovered in where our creativity come from.
syntheweave
I have a similar mild scoliosis/desk avoidance thing. But what I've found is that it's not related to pain(I can game for hours and hours in a chair), it's more of a energy/bloodflow/breathing issue. Lying prone or supine is actually a good posture for relaxing enough to think carefully. Sitting upright induces attention and focus to immediate tasks but it can also produce woozy idis haze right after eating.

My favorite setup, overall, is floor sitting with a low desk. This lets the posture shift around moment-to-moment, including fully upright seiza type positions and supine or prone positions.

throwaway2990
I tried those expensive chairs and sitting up straight and it gave me back pains.

After I read a study about slouching being better for you I got a gaming chair and switch between slouching and standing and have no more back pain and can concentrate for longer periods.

Posture is over rated.

01100011
You're in a local maximum. Getting to a better state will take effort and cause discomfort but you'll be better off in the long run. I was like you once. I grew up shrimped out in front of a computer and have a hereditary hump in my thoracic spine. Good posture hurt like hell. It was a process that took a few years and a lot of work. Stuart McGill is a good starting point.
DuckFeathers
Frederick Matthias Alexander (of the Alexander Technique fame) used 3 mirrors to diagnose and fix his bad posture leading to vocal rsi, so I am certain that this is a great idea. It would be nice if someone came up with a more smarter solution for this.
fswd
Ha, I've done this before. To boost my confidence. It actually works. The mirror however is in the closet, maybe I should bring it out again.
mmsnberbar66
I had this idea before, and I appreciate the reminder to actually do it.
pbiggar
I've had terrible posture for years and have tried lots of ways to fix it. After finally going to a good Physical Therapist, I'm finally making great progress that people have commented on.

The problem is that you can't just put yourself in a better posture. You can fix workplace ergonomics (and should!), but you have tight muscles and weak muscles and attempting to just "sit up straight" doesn't work and may actively be harmful.

For example, lots of people told me to sit up straight as a kid, which resulted in my tilting my chin up to give the appearance of sitting it straighter, but it actually made my posture much worse by rounding my spine more.

So to solve it, see a professional. They will give you exercises to fix the muscles that are pulling your spine out of alignment. The exercises will loosen tight muscles, give you more range of motion, strengthen weak muscles like your core, and in a few months will get you feeling much better and standing much straighter.

abhaynayar
I recently used Alfred app to turn my old Android phone into a CCTV when I realized there was a huge difference between how I perceived myself versus how I looked in photos/videos. One of the biggest things I improved on because of that was my posture. Over time, I kept reminding and correcting myself, and even though my mistakes were subtle, now my shoulders are relaxed and not closing forwards, and I am not hunching over. Still need to keep reminding, but less often.

(Apart from the health perspective, it makes a huge difference in how good you look and what personality you exude.)

boondoggle16
Could you elaborate on this? It sounds interesting to me, because I have also noticed a difference in how I perceive myself, vs the reality of photos and videos.

I have a variable voice, for example, and I've considered training myself to use a single voice type instead. I could project a deeper and louder voice, and probably gain a lot of social status by doing so.

musTY8
Having an optimal desk setup placement would nullify the need for posture awareness checks.
JoelMcCracken
I bought one of these. It’s helped a good bit. I also bought the necklace attachment, much better than the sticky pads

Upright GO-2 | Posture Corrector Trainer, Discreet & Strapless for Men & Women - Sync & Track Progress Via App (GO-2) https://a.co/d/cdEdaRC

sublinear
Mirrors encourage all kinds of positivity. Facial posture too! No more RBF. The people around me have noticed a "mood improvement", but actually it's just self-awareness of how I look.
swah
Yeah I wish I had a labrador face.
savrajsingh
the best way to improve something is to see/measure/track it :)
davidguetta
I'm just going to put this here, unafraid of the mighty downvotes: https://leangains.com/fuckarounditis/

Posture is bullshit. People have back pain because they are weak in their back who have no muscle. Just get stronger with real physical exercises (done safely) and you'll be fine.

Mawr
It's somewhat amusing that the best exercise is just "repeatedly lift heavy rock off ground".
grugagag
People have poor muscular tone because of poor postre and bad habits in the first place. There are people who never work out and are just fine, have no back pain but do have good posture and proper gait.

And there are people who work out with incorrect posture. They have more problems than all, so posture and good habits are very important.

jorisboris
Slightly related, I sometimes open an empty meeting with camera on to see my face reflected to me.

It surprising how often I catch myself yawning, leaning on my hand, picking my nose, looking grumpy, ...

ensocode
This is a cool low-tech way! Have you heard about Sitapp (https://sitapp.app/)? It's a webapp that utilizes your webcam to correct your posture. Do you maybe know similar apps for linux? I completely agree with the previous comments about the importance of changing positions frequently to prevent the discomfort that comes with a static posture. If you're interested in delving deeper into this subject, I highly recommend Eric Soehngen's insightful book, "Death By Sitting: Why We Need A Movement Revolution." It's an nice read Finally, for those looking for alternative options, I've found that treadmill desks are an excellent choice. They offer a good mix of productivity and physical activity.