I’ve never seen a more positive response to a logo change.
I honestly can’t think of any positive response to a logo change lately. The flattening of Google’s word mark a decade ago is the most recent that comes to mind. I’m sure there are others, but the point is they’re almost never this well-received, imo.
Are you arguing just against change? Like things should remain the same if there's no technical reason to change them? 2 decades is quite a long time for something visual to remain the same.
“2 decades is quite a long time for something visual to remain the same.”
Which increases my chance of identifying the icon at a glance considerably, since most apps I use have either not existed for 20 years, or have had multiple logo changes in that time.
All this change just means I am effectively icon blind in most computing situations, which is a real annoyance and hindrance to productivity
In this case, the new Thunderbird logo is in a similar style to the Firefox logo, which makes it clearer that the two apps are from the same developer. This can help with user acquisition since Firefox has better brand recognition and a larger user base than Thunderbird.
As an aside, when Thunderbird first launched, Firefox was called Firebird, so their names were similar as well. The browser was renamed to Firefox in 2004 to avoid confusion with the Firebird database.
It communicates to new users that this is a currently maintained project, that it has modern features that they expect, that it works on the latest operating system that they might have installed, etc.
It's obviously important for a commercial project, but even for an open source non-profit it's important, because you want to have an active base of contributors and if you aren't getting new ones they'll slowly diminish over time.
It's weird that actual current maintenance, actual existence of modern features, and actual cross-platform portability doesn't communicate that, but a new logo does.
People work that way. We have several ways to visually communicate that we are current with the general state of the world and we're not slipping away. Logos are one of them for corporations and projects in general.
But these are not necessarily visible for the end-user and guess what, this is what an end-user notices, not if the service is using some of the new state-of-the-art encryption.
> It's obviously important for a commercial project, but even for an open source non-profit it's important, because you want to have an active base of contributors and if you aren't getting new ones they'll slowly diminish over time.
I feel like many here might disagree that this should be the case, even if realistically it kind of is for most people. To that end, I'm curious whether there are any projects out there that have decided that this is "silly" and instead are alive and doing well, without caring about UI and aesthetics that much, focusing on UX more instead.
I think the logo and look of something like Audacity, Handbrake, ManicTime or KeePass comes to mind.
> It communicates to new users that this is a currently maintained project
Busywork, which I consider logo change to be, doesn't really make a project seem "maintained". But at least it's not a productivity-disrupting change so... whatever floats their boat.
It's not the regular change of logos that people notice and then think that that must mean that the project is active.
It's more that design trends change with times, and color gradients currently went out of fashion (but will come back, in a later design trend), so it's important to adapt to current design trends once in a while.
If you don't do that, people subconsciously dismiss the software without trying, assuming that it won't run, or won't be able to handle modern workflows.
You've seen benign instances, then. Every time I see a company do this kind of thing it takes one or more engineers nontrivial time to go update everything.
Perhaps why many have been moving to preferring "Xenia" as the Linux mascot. She's vintage 1996, too, but she has been through quite a few more transformations over the decades.
I'd rather my open source software oppose corporate wankery trends rather than follow them. The notion that you need to change your logo in order to attract new users is absurd - if the old logo looked like an 8-color Windows 3.1 icon then maybe you'd have a point but the previous Thunderbird logo was plenty modern, no need to chase fleeting design trends.
Wow this is one of the best logo redesigns I’ve seen in a long time. Absolutely keeps the spirit and distinct identity of the old one, but looks a whole lot crisper and fresher. Huge props.
I anxiously clicked, expecting to see an overly simple, flat, gradient filled shape with no character.
But this is perhaps one of the few I’ve seen in a long time that manages to maintain a sense of character while also taking just enough from modern trends to feel fresh and like it belongs next to other current day apps.
I think it’s great too. It does an especially good job balancing its cleverness in a way that works well in each context it was designed for.
Somewhat aside: as a long time Mac user, it bums me out how the current macOS/iOS design language distracts from the logo as an icon. The Windows variation is much better, and would’ve fit right in on a Mac just a few years ago.
In all fairness, Thunderbird could have opted to use the windows/Linux logo for macOS and it would look amazing in the dock.
The silly white background squircle trend was set by the chromium/electron apps and it’s the opposite of the Human Interface Guidelines which recommend a distinctive and rich app icon.
Unfortunately, Cupertino endorsed the squircle and encourages to “embrace simplicity”, so indistinct icons are recommended in the HIG now
“In macOS, app icons share a common set of visual attributes, including a rounded-rectangle shape, front-facing perspective, level position, and uniform drop shadow.“ [1]
Apple's new HIG is an exercise in marketing overriding usability unfortunately. I find it exceedingly hard to distinguish the squared icons on my Mac nowadays, and I also think they look worse than the more free-form ones from before.
At least it is still possible to use custom icons in Mac OS. But don't tell Apple!
I hate to be generous to Electron apps, but this wasn’t a trend set by them. The squircle thing happened directly in lockstep with macOS setting the expectation. Really good icons, even for Electron apps (VSCode is a prominent example), became indistinguishable practically overnight when the macOS design language was announced.
I also love that when you click the link the new logo is right there, front and center. No other explanation needed. In most of these announcements you first have to read through pages and pages of design philosophy written by the overpriced design firm that had to somehow justify its hourly rate despite delivering a flat, boring logo.
I think it is clever how the "negative space" of the rounded envelope plus how the wing is holding it evokes a "speech bubble" of most other messaging apps, while still being visually an envelope. It's subtle, but communicative, and one of those things that once you see it, is always there (like the FedEx arrow).
> what do people use a desktop e-mail client for.. ie thunderbird ?
I use Apple Mail for reading mail because I have email accounts at a number of different providers and web UIs differ so easier to bring everything into one app. Also, sometimes it’s good to have email offline.
> Mine as start sending hand written messages and licking stamps..
How is it worse than having to use up all my RAM in a few browser tabs with unresponsive PWAs such as Outlook for work? I much rather have Thunderbird or Evolution silently in the background popping up notifications when I get emails - not to mention it’s much easier to compartmentalise within a DE, i.e I know my email is workspace #4 instead of having to flash scroll through all my open tabs
Desktop e-mail clients integrate well with the operating system, making work much easier. Native desktop apps are also faster to use and lets you access your e-mails if your connection is interrupted.
Among other reasons, in built privacy features like ability to not load images or ability to avoid loading css or other trackable files. Reading pure text email or HTML only is very refreshing in today's age where everything is meant to distract your attention.
Most webmail clients aren't great, tied to big tech, out of your control and only manage one email address, don't integrate well with the rest of the desktop. Too name a few.
Well it looks like Betterbird war is having an affect on Thunderbird itself. While not the same logo, it has a similar "feel" to the Betterbird logo.
Now if Thunderbird will finally make it possible to NOT have threading as the default for new accounts or have an easy button to remove threading, rather than the cumbersome way they do it now, (listen to the endusers guys , not the sponsored contributors), we will all feel a little bit more love for the venerable Thunderbird.
I do like the new logo though.
And when you add a new account you have to do that for all the folders individually.
That doesn't apply to a folders sub folder either.
There is a method to copy all settings to a folder and its sub folders but that does not include sub folders of the sub folder.
So you end up for a while with some folders showing up as threaded and some not.
And you have to do it for each account individually. (some of us have multiple accounts for businesses and personal emails)
Nightmare when deleting, because you may delete a thread rather than an individual email.
For most of us it means threading was foisted on us without notice or discussion.
Ever tried to find out what is being considered? Good luck with that.
Surely a global button to remove all threading can't be all that hard.
How do you even see a chat bubble in that? It's clearly a mail icon, the new Thunderbird icon is just taking a design cue from the modern Firefox logo.
I almost included in another comment that I was impressed they made this less subtle (so logo nerds aren’t the only ones who can see it) without ruining its subtlety. If you look at the space between the tail and beak you’ll probably see the rest.
I’m genuinely curious! What does the shape look like to you instead? I could see a highly stylized single quote character, which would be just as fitting.
> It's inevitable that throughout my career, I've watched as work gets replaced and updated by others. It's rare to be asked to redesign old work, which is why I leapt at the chance when @thunderbird asked if I could design a contemporary update to the Thunderbird logo. The one I designed 19 years ago!
Good points? Whoever made that post reads too much into things that aren't even true:
* Long, sharp beaks are characterestic of nectar feeders, e.g. hummingbird, not "lethal predators".
* Hawk's beak is neither large nor particularly sharp; and while hawk is a deadly predator, and the new logo is hawk-like, I can't see the hawk as a bad thing;
* Everything else is purely subjective, too. "Dead white eyes convey malice"? OK.
Finally, re:"Message is mine, not yours"? Well, that's the entire point of an email client. It keeps the mail, it doesn't live on the server.
If that comes through the logo, then it's a job well done.
Ha, interesting points, but it's all a matter of perspective.
I would much rather that the bird delivering my mail is a badass who can protect it at all costs. Perhaps the protective "MINE" body language is aimed at someone trying to intercept my mail, not at me. This is a much better scenario than a fake-ass overly friendly bird.
Also, the old logo always made me a little uncomfortable—it looks like the bird is mid flight, but the moment it flaps its wings up it's dropping that letter!!!
> This is a much better scenario than a fake-ass overly friendly bird.
Well, it's certainly a taste thing, but I dislike the "angry bird". Whatever the meaning that was intended, it looks like a warning that I shouldn't use it. It's also a bit like the fashion for the "angry" look of trucks, but the other way around. Driving trucks styled that way feels like I'm telling the world how much I hate it.
But it's all irrelevant. I'm not going to stop using Thunderbird just because I dislike the logo.
I can see that. It's funny how polarized the reaction to this logo is. Like, everyone gripes about logo changes and then gets over it, but someone in this thread actually jokingly said they might start using it just because the like the logo so much (obviously probably a joke, but that they took the time to say it says something). Personally I immediately liked it and thought of it as "confident" and "serious about mail". Angry or aggressive didn't even occur to me until I read the linked provided by the person I was originally responding to.
It's truly fascinating how different people can derive such different meanings! "Confident and serious about mail" are not things that came to my mind at all until someone mentioned them. (I tend to perceive hostility as signifying insecurity and weakness.)
All I saw was hostility. After the other interpretation was pointed out, I can see that -- but I have to force myself to see it. I still just see hostility by default.
haha I'm glad someone said it, it always bothered me
I guess no matter how good the design is, you have to think about how it looks in 16x16 & 32x32 when most people only see the logo when they look at the tiny icon on their desktop
Do you really consider "Wings wrapped possesively around message says 'it's mine, not yours'" a well though-out reason? That's not feedback, and more like just being mean. If that post mentioned an actual reason, I sure missed it.
I'm saying this as a person who likes the old icon better.
Most of the time I see a logo redesign, it's a mess that makes the product more difficult to recognize, and makes things look more generic.
Not so this time! Immediately you feel that the Thunderbird and Firefox belong in the same family, while still immediately recognizing that the new logo is the same Thunderbird you know and love.
It stuck so fast, I had to look app the current logo to remember how it looks like!
> Yes, we have officially added an iOS version of Thunderbird to our future development roadmap. Expect more concrete news about this toward the end of 2023.
So it doesn't exist yet, but they're going to make it, and at least they've got a logo for it.
I loved Unibox because it grouped email by contact - this fit my workflow way better than grouping chronologically or by thread. It was not sorted by “from” but rather the main view was just contact names and clicking on the name would show a list of emails. It was so great. Much like other message apps. I only stopped using it - years after the developers stopped updating it - because I was worried about a future OS update breaking it.
Does Thunderbird or any other mail client do this? My memory from a billion internet years ago is that the UI is similar to all other email clients, especially Apple mail.
If an email comes from someone you don’t know it created a kind of virtual contact which bubbles up to the top of the contact list.
If you click on the contact it shows a list of their emails. If you then click a button in the top email, that will give you a threaded email view which will show the whole mailing list activity chronologically.
I don’t use mailing lists much so there were probably better ways of doing it. But I actually thought unibox’s threaded view was really great.
That said, there are plenty of email clients that deal with mailing lists. What about one for me? :)
Well that's cool, personally i wasn't alive in those days :)
On another note, the absolute best mail client i have ever used is FairEmail on android. It even beats Thunderbird on the desktop. If you run android i highly recommend that too.
Ha! My Unix timeline history is vague now but I’ve used SCO, DG/UX and HP/UX in anger. Pretty sure mailx was my client on most of those! :) (not to mention SunOS and Sequent at some point. And DRS/NX. But that’s not one to mention in polite company)
I use Thunderbird on a MacBook Air (Apple Silicon). Just be warned that it seems to use a lot of CPU resources (when seemingly not doing anything) and therefore uses up the battery faster than it should. It's not a deal breaker. I tend to keep it closed until I check my mail, which isn't ideal, but then again, it's not the worst productivity/stay focused habit to have. This is as of May 2023 and earlier. Hoping the update/integration with Firefox may improve this.
High cpu usage has been the case with Thunderbird on MacOS since forever. I've long wanted to switch to apple mail due to battery drain, but I just can't work with a unified accounts. I have multiple accounts and like keeping them separate.
This is a surprisingly good design. After seeing the headline on HN, I was convinced it was going to be terrible and lead to a ton of rants. But mostly positive comments so far.
After seeing the logo itself I was expecting such rants, because it fits so well with the more recent Firefox rebranding which haven’t exactly been well received. I’m pleasantly surprised.
Gotta say, looks really good! On brand and on-point. I was worried before clicking that this would be similar to the time the Firefox logo almost copied the Gitlab logo. Glad to see that's not the case!
Personally, while i like the new logo on its own, it seems too similar to the Firefox logo - enough to create some confusion. Further, since Mozilla has lowered its level of support over the years, I'm not sure it makes sense to commit more to the Mozilla brand, especially since Firefox itself has been steadily losing market share.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 253 ms ] threadAlso, is this a bird or a dolphin, not quite sure...
i.e.
you are unlikely to stop using Thunderbird because of this redesign, but someone who doesn't use it now has an increased chance of starting.
I honestly can’t think of any positive response to a logo change lately. The flattening of Google’s word mark a decade ago is the most recent that comes to mind. I’m sure there are others, but the point is they’re almost never this well-received, imo.
Which increases my chance of identifying the icon at a glance considerably, since most apps I use have either not existed for 20 years, or have had multiple logo changes in that time.
All this change just means I am effectively icon blind in most computing situations, which is a real annoyance and hindrance to productivity
That is something I could probably do in KDE, which I enjoy for it's configurability. Thank you for the kind suggestion
As an aside, when Thunderbird first launched, Firefox was called Firebird, so their names were similar as well. The browser was renamed to Firefox in 2004 to avoid confusion with the Firebird database.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat#Origins_of_the_name
Oh, wow. I apparently missed that they were brought back under the Mozilla umbrella three years ago. Cool.
It's obviously important for a commercial project, but even for an open source non-profit it's important, because you want to have an active base of contributors and if you aren't getting new ones they'll slowly diminish over time.
I feel like many here might disagree that this should be the case, even if realistically it kind of is for most people. To that end, I'm curious whether there are any projects out there that have decided that this is "silly" and instead are alive and doing well, without caring about UI and aesthetics that much, focusing on UX more instead.
I think the logo and look of something like Audacity, Handbrake, ManicTime or KeePass comes to mind.
Busywork, which I consider logo change to be, doesn't really make a project seem "maintained". But at least it's not a productivity-disrupting change so... whatever floats their boat.
It's not the regular change of logos that people notice and then think that that must mean that the project is active.
It's more that design trends change with times, and color gradients currently went out of fashion (but will come back, in a later design trend), so it's important to adapt to current design trends once in a while.
If you don't do that, people subconsciously dismiss the software without trying, assuming that it won't run, or won't be able to handle modern workflows.
No users -> no contributors -> project dies.
You've seen benign instances, then. Every time I see a company do this kind of thing it takes one or more engineers nontrivial time to go update everything.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux_(mascot)
https://www.kernel.org/
https://xenia-linux-site.glitch.me/
I anxiously clicked, expecting to see an overly simple, flat, gradient filled shape with no character.
But this is perhaps one of the few I’ve seen in a long time that manages to maintain a sense of character while also taking just enough from modern trends to feel fresh and like it belongs next to other current day apps.
that other MCU is just a cheap rip-off trying to imitate moving app icons with CGI ;)
Somewhat aside: as a long time Mac user, it bums me out how the current macOS/iOS design language distracts from the logo as an icon. The Windows variation is much better, and would’ve fit right in on a Mac just a few years ago.
> Many of us inside Rogue Amoeba lament the recent "flattening" of app icons on the Mac, and the attendant loss of personality.
[1]: https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2022/09/09/the-design-of-audi...
The silly white background squircle trend was set by the chromium/electron apps and it’s the opposite of the Human Interface Guidelines which recommend a distinctive and rich app icon.
“In macOS, app icons share a common set of visual attributes, including a rounded-rectangle shape, front-facing perspective, level position, and uniform drop shadow.“ [1]
[1]: https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline...
At least it is still possible to use custom icons in Mac OS. But don't tell Apple!
It looks flat and generic and soulless. But I recognise this is a matter of opinion.
Going back to a desktop e-mail client seems like a step into the long past. Mine as start sending hand written messages and licking stamps..
I use Apple Mail for reading mail because I have email accounts at a number of different providers and web UIs differ so easier to bring everything into one app. Also, sometimes it’s good to have email offline.
> Mine as start sending hand written messages and licking stamps..
I do that too, sometimes.
I'm confused. Can't you just hit the "Display message threads" button to toggle threading on and off?
Does this mean they intend to add chat features?
Designer John Hicks post about this:
https://mastodon.social/@jonhicks/110424132785208582
> It's inevitable that throughout my career, I've watched as work gets replaced and updated by others. It's rare to be asked to redesign old work, which is why I leapt at the chance when @thunderbird asked if I could design a contemporary update to the Thunderbird logo. The one I designed 19 years ago!
More images here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lRkSA9YyHduCmDe2Fucv2DK2l9a...
Based on that file being "v7" I'm really hoping John does a post detailing the design process. I always love to see how these things evolve.
This post makes some very good points about it https://mastodon.social/@KelvinShadewing/110424262996045829
* Long, sharp beaks are characterestic of nectar feeders, e.g. hummingbird, not "lethal predators".
* Hawk's beak is neither large nor particularly sharp; and while hawk is a deadly predator, and the new logo is hawk-like, I can't see the hawk as a bad thing;
* Everything else is purely subjective, too. "Dead white eyes convey malice"? OK.
Finally, re:"Message is mine, not yours"? Well, that's the entire point of an email client. It keeps the mail, it doesn't live on the server.
If that comes through the logo, then it's a job well done.
[1] https://www.dkfindout.com/us/animals-and-nature/birds/types-...
It's a well known trope
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphetEyes
> It is considered a supernatural being of power and strength
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphetEyes
> And sometimes, white eyes simply alert the audience that their owner is supernatural
Ok?
?
Most people use IMAP accounts nowadays
And if your account goes poof, you still have all your messages.
Well, sure. Nearly anything anyone has to say about the logo is purely subjective. That's the way of art.
I would much rather that the bird delivering my mail is a badass who can protect it at all costs. Perhaps the protective "MINE" body language is aimed at someone trying to intercept my mail, not at me. This is a much better scenario than a fake-ass overly friendly bird.
Also, the old logo always made me a little uncomfortable—it looks like the bird is mid flight, but the moment it flaps its wings up it's dropping that letter!!!
Sorry, but the bird in the new logo looks like a baby bird.
Well, it's certainly a taste thing, but I dislike the "angry bird". Whatever the meaning that was intended, it looks like a warning that I shouldn't use it. It's also a bit like the fashion for the "angry" look of trucks, but the other way around. Driving trucks styled that way feels like I'm telling the world how much I hate it.
But it's all irrelevant. I'm not going to stop using Thunderbird just because I dislike the logo.
All I saw was hostility. After the other interpretation was pointed out, I can see that -- but I have to force myself to see it. I still just see hostility by default.
I guess no matter how good the design is, you have to think about how it looks in 16x16 & 32x32 when most people only see the logo when they look at the tiny icon on their desktop
I'm saying this as a person who likes the old icon better.
Most of the time I see a logo redesign, it's a mess that makes the product more difficult to recognize, and makes things look more generic.
Not so this time! Immediately you feel that the Thunderbird and Firefox belong in the same family, while still immediately recognizing that the new logo is the same Thunderbird you know and love.
It stuck so fast, I had to look app the current logo to remember how it looks like!
> Yes, we have officially added an iOS version of Thunderbird to our future development roadmap. Expect more concrete news about this toward the end of 2023.
So it doesn't exist yet, but they're going to make it, and at least they've got a logo for it.
I loved Unibox because it grouped email by contact - this fit my workflow way better than grouping chronologically or by thread. It was not sorted by “from” but rather the main view was just contact names and clicking on the name would show a list of emails. It was so great. Much like other message apps. I only stopped using it - years after the developers stopped updating it - because I was worried about a future OS update breaking it.
Does Thunderbird or any other mail client do this? My memory from a billion internet years ago is that the UI is similar to all other email clients, especially Apple mail.
If you click on the contact it shows a list of their emails. If you then click a button in the top email, that will give you a threaded email view which will show the whole mailing list activity chronologically.
I don’t use mailing lists much so there were probably better ways of doing it. But I actually thought unibox’s threaded view was really great.
That said, there are plenty of email clients that deal with mailing lists. What about one for me? :)
Don’t tell anyone, but I’m old enough to have used Netscape on Linux as my primary mail client.
So going back to thunderbird after all these years… gives me mixed feelings. But I’ll take it for a spin and see.
On another note, the absolute best mail client i have ever used is FairEmail on android. It even beats Thunderbird on the desktop. If you run android i highly recommend that too.
On the Desktop I have been using Mailspring for awhile and am also super happy with it!
Yeah, put a lampshade on it!
¹https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/152461