>No dependencies on proprietary drivers or OS-loaded binary blobs that can interfere with long term support
This is nice, seems competition is increasing between the Linux hardware vendors. But will need to keep them in mind due to the proprietary statements.
They do offer a BT dongle via USB, so clearly there's at least one. Why not have its chip on the mainboard? Using USB for soldered-on BT is fairly common.
On a good laptop, I would at most need it for audio (cable connectors break too easily when I'm working in a bus/train/airplane, no thanks). But since the devs can't count to three, I'll need an external mouse, and I don't trust that keyboard either. So that's three devices that are best solved with bluetooth, if you don't want connectors to break off inside the laptop at some point.
The linux btrtl driver lists a whole slew of binary firmware blobs, but maybe they also produce a few modules which do not require them. Can you give me an example of a realtek module which does not require any?
I know that I've used a realtek USB <-> Ethernet adapter without firmware. Unfortunately, it did not work reliably unless firmware was loaded.
My impressions as someone who's been exclusively using Linux on laptops since 2007:
Heavy. Intel-only, and not even good for an Intel. Poor display. Designers can't count to three (mouse buttons). Optical drive but no built-in bluetooth on a laptop in 2023, really? RAM for 3x the market rate. Tiny battery.
I wouldn't even get this is a political statement (too heavy and bulky), never mind as an actual daily driver.
Whoa. I got a little over 1k for a 32g/1Tb build with bluray burner. I’d be fine picking this up if I really were in the market. It’s maybe a premium on what I could pick up at Costco, but honestly not that huge of a markup. Unfortunately small boutique shops like this can’t price like mega outlets like Costco, but feels like they did fine.
64GB DDR4-SODIMM costs about 115€ including shipping right now, for the T4 the upgrade from 8 costs over 300. It's the same markup you get from companies like Apple.
And I don't mind spending money on a convincing laptop, but since everything else is also unattractive, the nickel and dime-ing just makes it worse.
Yeah, I'm done with 1080p displays, massive dealbreaker.
Also, I don't get the need for an optical drive inside a laptop anymore. There isn't much media that comes on it, and Blu-Ray only stores about 50GB, while 256GB USB drives are a dime a dozen nowadays.
From the Penguin Sales email I received this morning...
I believe you inquired about our laptops some time back as we literally had nothing the laptop section and were told that we were working on replacing an older generation when you reached out.
We probably told you industry norms were working against us. Basically the industry has migrated to design choices that are pretty terrible and while we could get around them it would take more energy and capital to do deviate from those bad choices.
For instance the wireless antenna on most newer laptops is placed under the laptop rather than in the screen. This interferes with the reception so using the laptop at a distance from the access point can be problematic.
Touchpads that are designed to look good, but don't function well. Well, we've got a model with physical buttons now alongside multi-touch support so you can get the best of both worlds. At least in terms of functionality and usability. Though I'll admit it might not look quite as pretty- at least the laptop is still a very thin portable awesome looking unit.
There will probably be a video coming out this week demonstrating the new model.
> Well, we've got a model with physical buttons now alongside multi-touch support so you can get the best of both worlds. At least in terms of functionality and usability.
A third mouse button like we had back in the late 1980s would be a nice improvement over a simple two-button design.
> The laptop goes much farther though in incorporating a unique set of traditional functionality that will make you as productive as yesteryear.
... I mean, _traditional_ laptops were pretty terrible. Nostalgia seems like a bad way to sell laptops. The good old days when you got battery life of an hour and suspend didn't work properly...
Traditional laptops like the Thinkpad X201 or X220 back from over ten years ago were lighter, had brighter and denser displays, didn't make me pay extra for bluetooth and even had a third mouse button for scrolling.
The whole of the x86 laptop space has been trending away from 16:9 in the past couple of years — I have a 16:10 ThinkPad from 2021 for example. This is great, but it sure took a long time… the 16:9 takeover and the terrible reign of 1366x768 began at some point around 2007 and only started relinquishing in 2021.
All of those specs and not a single mention of how much this thing costs. How can any potential customer reasonably compare this to another laptop without knowing the base price?
Missed the catalog section, so makes a little more sense in the context of browsing the site from the start. Still, I shouldn’t have to add to cart to actually see the price as configured.
I don’t want to get too far in the weeds here since we’re not generally supposed to critique site design on HN. But it feels relevant to the conversation given the product text doesn’t have that information.
I own a system 76. It has been reliable but I really really miss my 2015 MacBook pro. I stayed with the company longer just because of that laptop and left when they gave us butterfly keyboard MacBook pro.
People talk about the Apple tax all the time but the Linux tax is real too. Of course there’s something to be said for putting your money where your mouth is and not giving Microsoft money for an OS you’ll never use.
Mainstream Windows laptops are often partly subsidized with a healthy dose of trialware installations and Linux laptops are too niche to reach economies of scale, but the good thing is that if you choose carefully it’s pretty trivial to install Linux over top of Windows these days.
I'm writing this on the cheapest laptop they had at the store, and Linux runs fine on it without any problems, using a standard installation without any tinkering needed. Everything "just works". In my experience that's more often true than not these days (or maybe I've just been very lucky).
Your mileage may vary with other models of course, but you certainly don't need a "Linux tax" to be a happy Linux user.
I've been disgusted with this stuff for well over a decade. I remember how excited I was when Microsoft showed they can see and made a glitchy 2-in-1 with bright, high-resolution 3:2 touch screen, Surface Book. When was that? Ah, 2015. Then, some Chinese noname knock-off with a Snapdragon SoC copied it, probably literally bought the same panels; I was tempted by the low price point but reasoned it's useless for work and I might as well buy a 16:9 tablet for fun. Then, I think it was some Dell super-thin premium ultrabook? Overheating Huawei with rare, subpar resolution? A few fashionable ultrabooks on underpowered Intels when I wanted a Ryzen 5800H but apparently Intel negotiated their AMD versions don't get good screens? Then, Apple got close with 2021 Macbook Pro.
I bought Apple, because it was the first one without crippling flaws and unabashed contempt for the user, as it unfortunately happens almost every time. It also conspicuously rectified many other mistakes of Apple itself: the cable, the charging port, the thinness and thin corners fetish, the cooling, the keyboard, well, you remember it.
It wasn't a laptop of my dream by any measure, which is more like "a bit thinner X440p, made with modern affordances and fuller utilization of the volume and lid space". (No, X1 ain't it). But it was good enough to consider that it's someone's dream. And it's a honor to use dream products in principle.
Anyway, the point goes beyond displays. This all convinced me that independent laptop makers absolutely can produce devices with displays of almost arbitrary ratio and resolution and indeed very close to my dream in other respects, but they won't because they have no ambition and no interest in their user's use cases; their drive is exhausted by pandering to some self-identifying nerds and selling a few thousands of "configurable" junk on a generic OEM Shenzhen chassis to the suckers. They do not eat their own dog food.
Or perhaps, less cynically, there's just too few people like me and even they'll rather get a good-enough Macbook.
This is a cool laptop but after looking it over I hope ThinkPenguin decides to sell replacement batteries (since they are removable) and perhaps even a higher capacity one that sticks out the back a bit. Also the inclusion of a B key M.2 is great for say, an LTE modem, but the page makes no mention if they wired a SIM card slot up to it. Another thing I wish was an option would be to configure without a wifi module, since not everyone is focused on libre firmware, it'd be nice to throw a generic wifi+bt module in there, rather than have to rely on an external bluetooth dongle. I know I can just swap it out later, but that's sunken cost and e-waste for the built in unit which kind of stinks.
EDIT: I checked around their shop, they do sell replacement batteries for $109, but I still wish they sold an extended cell variant like laptops did 10 years ago.
I’m deeply suspicious of anywhere trying to cross-sell me VPNs.
The commentary around “traditional” efficiency with trackpads - after using the latest Apple trackpads everything else is awful. I have no good memories of trackpads of day of yore either. The MacBook trackpad is better without physical buttons. The haptics are so good I can’t tell it’s not physical, and it’s one fewer physical thing to break.
“SSD is a new tech”? Really? Coupled with actual spinning drives as options, which are awful in laptops given they’re moving parts.
I wish I could opt out of the power adaptor. I have a 150W GAN power brick on my desk and in my bag that can charge my iPad Pro, MacBook Pro, Carbon X1, etc all without fuss. Apple Watch, iPhone too with the right cables. Everything USB-C all the time, please. Not some power brick from the 90s with a barrel.
No Bluetooth just seems like a weird choice.
Awful screen.
A webcam cover gets a bullet? Those are 5 for $10 on Amazon. Seems a weird thing to call out and focus on.
I can’t remember the last time I used or burnt a CD or DVD. USB drives are so much more flexible with vastly higher capacities and speeds.
This whole laptop reads as “the laptop you wanted in the 90s, here today in 2023”.
- both M2 NVME SSD and a SATA slot, so I could add my current SATA SSD.
- 2 kg
- 10/100/1000 Ethernet
- 5 USB ports, mixed types
- VGA (maybe much needed anymore but OK)
- HDMI
- headphone/mic jack
- mic only jack (but why another one?)
- webcam on top of the screen
- card reader
- pretty inexpensive
Bad things:
- Intel i5 only
- only 2 mouse buttons but this is a Linux laptop: it must have 3. Maybe they can't find any company building 3 mouse buttons touchpads.
- it has a numberpad, which is standard on 15" laptops, but the keyboard is offcenter with the screen.
- US keyboard only, but I could live with that if it was the only bad thing. My fingers remember where keys are.
Neutral
- 1080p 16:9 is OKish for me. 16:10 or 16:12 (that is 4:3 [1]) would be better.
Unknowns:
- how easy is it to open and replace parts?
- is RAM soldered or replaceable? Apparently it's replaceable because they write that you can "upgrade later".
- what's up with "Most USB data transfer cables on the market include a proprietary flash component that interferes with their usability. With our USB data transfer cable no such component exists" at $59.99?
Weirdness:
- an optical drive? Well, maybe that could turn into an extra slot for a SSD, with a caddy.
- bluetooth No Thanks? Compared to "No SATA Drive" or the several "Select" menus, is that a statement against bluetooth?
- the two "censored" European AC Adapters.
- the VPN service, almost suspicious.
[1] Remember that 16:9 is 4:2.25. We used to have 4:3 screens even wider than the horizontal 36 cm of most current 15" laptops. They shortened our screens.
Yes but that is a very limited third button. You cannot do chording (e.g. left+middle buttons together) using that approach. Some specialized applications use chording.
The vast majority of products sold with this certification are grossly overpriced versions of commodity hardware which happened to already meet the FSF's expectations. In many cases, the only customization performed by the "manufacturer" was rebranding and/or repackaging the item.
Simple: some people use headsets that have a TRRS connector (stereo audio and mono mic on one cable), others have headsets with a TRS (stereo audio) and TS (mono for the mic) connector, while others use a separate headphone and mic (e.g. ModMic). Of course, many headsets these days use USB, but there are plenty of 3.5mm ones still floating around, and if you search "headset" on Amazon, the first two options are 3.5mm.
There are, of course, adapters (TRS + TS <-> TRRS), but most people don't have one/don't want to buy one/don't know they exist. (I only have one because an old headset came with it.)
It's probably only a couple cents extra to achieve much wider compatibility.
One thing I've never understood is the FSF opposition to microcode and loadable firmware blobs. You're running proprietary hardware that clearly uses some firmware, what do you get out of insisting that the firmware is burned in at the factory and completely unmodifiable/updatable?
84 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 153 ms ] threadThis is nice, seems competition is increasing between the Linux hardware vendors. But will need to keep them in mind due to the proprietary statements.
> Compatible With OpenBSD
My number 1 requirement
Bonus point if one can compare them to Lenovo.
TIL that regulatory standards for products within your our country is colonisation.
My laptop has a Bluetooth adapter connected internally, made by Intel.
It still requires binary blobs to function.I know that I've used a realtek USB <-> Ethernet adapter without firmware. Unfortunately, it did not work reliably unless firmware was loaded.
So, yes, technically, there is no binary blob loaded by the operating system.
Heavy. Intel-only, and not even good for an Intel. Poor display. Designers can't count to three (mouse buttons). Optical drive but no built-in bluetooth on a laptop in 2023, really? RAM for 3x the market rate. Tiny battery.
I wouldn't even get this is a political statement (too heavy and bulky), never mind as an actual daily driver.
And I don't mind spending money on a convincing laptop, but since everything else is also unattractive, the nickel and dime-ing just makes it worse.
Also, I don't get the need for an optical drive inside a laptop anymore. There isn't much media that comes on it, and Blu-Ray only stores about 50GB, while 256GB USB drives are a dime a dozen nowadays.
I believe you inquired about our laptops some time back as we literally had nothing the laptop section and were told that we were working on replacing an older generation when you reached out.
We probably told you industry norms were working against us. Basically the industry has migrated to design choices that are pretty terrible and while we could get around them it would take more energy and capital to do deviate from those bad choices.
For instance the wireless antenna on most newer laptops is placed under the laptop rather than in the screen. This interferes with the reception so using the laptop at a distance from the access point can be problematic.
Touchpads that are designed to look good, but don't function well. Well, we've got a model with physical buttons now alongside multi-touch support so you can get the best of both worlds. At least in terms of functionality and usability. Though I'll admit it might not look quite as pretty- at least the laptop is still a very thin portable awesome looking unit.
There will probably be a video coming out this week demonstrating the new model.
A third mouse button like we had back in the late 1980s would be a nice improvement over a simple two-button design.
The HP ZBook Fury 16 is the only model left from a major vendor that has a three button touchpad.
https://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/product/qci_nb.aspx
Is there a Quanta SKU for this model?
... I mean, _traditional_ laptops were pretty terrible. Nostalgia seems like a bad way to sell laptops. The good old days when you got battery life of an hour and suspend didn't work properly...
Framework thankfully didn't and Microsoft also realized before them that vertical space is quite useful.
Recommendations welcome.
AC Adapter:
- Us, Mexico, Canada
- Australia / New Zealand
- [censored] - Plug Type "Europlug"
- [censored] & [censored] ("UK" style)
- Japan
lol wat
[0] https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers-gnu-...
I don’t want to get too far in the weeds here since we’re not generally supposed to critique site design on HN. But it feels relevant to the conversation given the product text doesn’t have that information.
Mainstream Windows laptops are often partly subsidized with a healthy dose of trialware installations and Linux laptops are too niche to reach economies of scale, but the good thing is that if you choose carefully it’s pretty trivial to install Linux over top of Windows these days.
Your mileage may vary with other models of course, but you certainly don't need a "Linux tax" to be a happy Linux user.
- No information about price
- No shipping information / warrenty for abroad
- Weight and other measurements is only in american system
- DVD drive on a laptop 2023?
- Censored information?
- Barely any pictures, the single one that exist is so small so it's hard to see.
- Shitty design that looks like one of my first webpages
Sorry but you could do a lot better in just the presentation of your products.
I've been disgusted with this stuff for well over a decade. I remember how excited I was when Microsoft showed they can see and made a glitchy 2-in-1 with bright, high-resolution 3:2 touch screen, Surface Book. When was that? Ah, 2015. Then, some Chinese noname knock-off with a Snapdragon SoC copied it, probably literally bought the same panels; I was tempted by the low price point but reasoned it's useless for work and I might as well buy a 16:9 tablet for fun. Then, I think it was some Dell super-thin premium ultrabook? Overheating Huawei with rare, subpar resolution? A few fashionable ultrabooks on underpowered Intels when I wanted a Ryzen 5800H but apparently Intel negotiated their AMD versions don't get good screens? Then, Apple got close with 2021 Macbook Pro.
I bought Apple, because it was the first one without crippling flaws and unabashed contempt for the user, as it unfortunately happens almost every time. It also conspicuously rectified many other mistakes of Apple itself: the cable, the charging port, the thinness and thin corners fetish, the cooling, the keyboard, well, you remember it.
It wasn't a laptop of my dream by any measure, which is more like "a bit thinner X440p, made with modern affordances and fuller utilization of the volume and lid space". (No, X1 ain't it). But it was good enough to consider that it's someone's dream. And it's a honor to use dream products in principle.
Anyway, the point goes beyond displays. This all convinced me that independent laptop makers absolutely can produce devices with displays of almost arbitrary ratio and resolution and indeed very close to my dream in other respects, but they won't because they have no ambition and no interest in their user's use cases; their drive is exhausted by pandering to some self-identifying nerds and selling a few thousands of "configurable" junk on a generic OEM Shenzhen chassis to the suckers. They do not eat their own dog food.
Or perhaps, less cynically, there's just too few people like me and even they'll rather get a good-enough Macbook.
EDIT: I checked around their shop, they do sell replacement batteries for $109, but I still wish they sold an extended cell variant like laptops did 10 years ago.
The commentary around “traditional” efficiency with trackpads - after using the latest Apple trackpads everything else is awful. I have no good memories of trackpads of day of yore either. The MacBook trackpad is better without physical buttons. The haptics are so good I can’t tell it’s not physical, and it’s one fewer physical thing to break.
“SSD is a new tech”? Really? Coupled with actual spinning drives as options, which are awful in laptops given they’re moving parts.
I wish I could opt out of the power adaptor. I have a 150W GAN power brick on my desk and in my bag that can charge my iPad Pro, MacBook Pro, Carbon X1, etc all without fuss. Apple Watch, iPhone too with the right cables. Everything USB-C all the time, please. Not some power brick from the 90s with a barrel.
No Bluetooth just seems like a weird choice.
Awful screen.
A webcam cover gets a bullet? Those are 5 for $10 on Amazon. Seems a weird thing to call out and focus on.
I can’t remember the last time I used or burnt a CD or DVD. USB drives are so much more flexible with vastly higher capacities and speeds.
This whole laptop reads as “the laptop you wanted in the 90s, here today in 2023”.
- up to 64 GB RAM
- both M2 NVME SSD and a SATA slot, so I could add my current SATA SSD.
- 2 kg
- 10/100/1000 Ethernet
- 5 USB ports, mixed types
- VGA (maybe much needed anymore but OK)
- HDMI
- headphone/mic jack
- mic only jack (but why another one?)
- webcam on top of the screen
- card reader
- pretty inexpensive
Bad things:
- Intel i5 only
- only 2 mouse buttons but this is a Linux laptop: it must have 3. Maybe they can't find any company building 3 mouse buttons touchpads.
- it has a numberpad, which is standard on 15" laptops, but the keyboard is offcenter with the screen.
- US keyboard only, but I could live with that if it was the only bad thing. My fingers remember where keys are.
Neutral
- 1080p 16:9 is OKish for me. 16:10 or 16:12 (that is 4:3 [1]) would be better.
Unknowns:
- how easy is it to open and replace parts?
- is RAM soldered or replaceable? Apparently it's replaceable because they write that you can "upgrade later".
- what's up with "Most USB data transfer cables on the market include a proprietary flash component that interferes with their usability. With our USB data transfer cable no such component exists" at $59.99?
Weirdness:
- an optical drive? Well, maybe that could turn into an extra slot for a SSD, with a caddy.
- bluetooth No Thanks? Compared to "No SATA Drive" or the several "Select" menus, is that a statement against bluetooth?
- the two "censored" European AC Adapters.
- the VPN service, almost suspicious.
[1] Remember that 16:9 is 4:2.25. We used to have 4:3 screens even wider than the horizontal 36 cm of most current 15" laptops. They shortened our screens.
Isn't pushing 2 buttons at the same time on a 2-button mouse the same as pushing the third button on a 3 button mouse?
Edit: spelling because phone.
And if you do want Bluetooth, the only option is an ancient USB dongle. (Only supporting Bluetooth 4.0 suggests that this hardware is ~10 years old.)
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-usb-bluetooth...
https://ryf.fsf.org/products
The vast majority of products sold with this certification are grossly overpriced versions of commodity hardware which happened to already meet the FSF's expectations. In many cases, the only customization performed by the "manufacturer" was rebranding and/or repackaging the item.
> - mic only jack (but why another one?)
Simple: some people use headsets that have a TRRS connector (stereo audio and mono mic on one cable), others have headsets with a TRS (stereo audio) and TS (mono for the mic) connector, while others use a separate headphone and mic (e.g. ModMic). Of course, many headsets these days use USB, but there are plenty of 3.5mm ones still floating around, and if you search "headset" on Amazon, the first two options are 3.5mm.
There are, of course, adapters (TRS + TS <-> TRRS), but most people don't have one/don't want to buy one/don't know they exist. (I only have one because an old headset came with it.)
It's probably only a couple cents extra to achieve much wider compatibility.