I wouldn't say the process of unsubscribing from Prime is 'deceptive' but it sure has many steps. They tried just about everything to persuade me to stay except offer to bring back two day shipping.
(I know many of you in urban areas are getting one day shipping but those of us in less favored geographies, such as the same ZIP code as AMZN warehouses, have seen two day shipping turn into five, which makes Amazon uncompetitive with going to the store or with other e-tailers which usually offer faster shipping.)
I have never intentionally paid for prime. I have tried a couple dozen "free trials" since signing up for Amazon in 2000. The process of canceling these trials definitely has the buttons labeled and styled deceptively. You really do have to pay close attention. And the date at which they start charging your payment method is not when you'd think either, it's a day earlier than the 30 days they promise. I've ended up paying them for "free" prime a few times and only received part of it back via-refund.
I've always shied away from Amazon's Prime service because the signup process already looks shady, no points offered for guessing that cancallation is even shadier.
Walmart offers Walmart Plus - I've never used it but it looks infinitely less sketchy. Between that and the fact that Walmart has its supply chain under control ("commingling", anyone) the choice is easy.
I have also never paid for, nor trialed, prime. I also have always had free-shipping (despite not having "prime") from Amazon.
How? Patience. I add things I plan to order to my cart, and once the collection goes above the "free ship" threshold (currently $25) only then do I place an order.
Of course, on the order page they always default to "paid shipping" and force one to explicitly check the "free shipping" radio button to actually get free shipping.
Some years back it felt like Amazon deliberately delayed for an extra week any "free shipping" packages -- they would sit, waiting, for about a week, then packed, shipped, and arrived in about 4 days. I always attributed it to Amazon punishing those who chose to gain free shipping without signing up for prime. But over the last few years that "delay" has shrunk such that it no longer seems like "free shipping" packages get intentionally delayed to "encourage" prime sign-up next time.
I don't disagree. I picked "free shipping" -- if they want to queue mine after everyone who explicitly paid for shipping and those who pays for prime, that is fine.
My point is that the "de-prioritization delay" seems to have evaporated and I get items shipped in about the same time as the prime estimates (when they are "shipped by amazon" -- third party shippers are all over the board with shipping delays).
What's deceptive about it is you click the first link to cancel your benefits, then each subsequent page is basically a quiz: "which button will boot you out of the cancel flow and which button will proceed to the next page"
I agree it's not actually that hard to cancel, but the flow is so needlessly complex from a consumer perspective.
It should go straight to a page with three buttons and associated explanations:
1) Cancel at the end of the term
2) Cancel immediately and receive pro-rated refund (Since they offer this, I'm including it here - wouldn't expect it in general)
3) Keep subscription
I ran into this trying to cancel a free-trial a month ago. Or rather I thought I'd cancelled it and got charged.
Cancelling the 2nd time, they refunded me for the unused month. But maybe that was to do with the linked case rather than the goodness of their hearts.
I just cancelled.
The first click to cancel your membership takes you to a page that says “you still have N days of your membership!” which is where you’d be able to close the page knowing your service was canceled if the service was honest.
But nah you have to scroll to the bottom and click “Continue canceling” where you’re taken the page you describe.
I don’t know how anyone can say this isn’t deceptive. If I click cancel membership, I shouldn’t be taken to a no-op interstitial page that makes me scroll to find a “continue canceling” button. That only exists to look like a “Canceled successfully” page.
As someone who regularly gets the 1-week trial of Prime (and cancels), the cancellation process has gotten a lot less deceptive recently. E.g. they used to invert the colors of the buttons to make the "Cancel Membership" look like the negative option, etc. These days it's still unnecessarily long, but requires less double-takes to figure out.
> Under substantial pressure from the Commission, Amazon changed its Iliad cancellation process in or about April 2023, shortly before the filing of this Complaint.
Oh for sure - I agree that the process is not something a reasonable person can't do - I use the 1 week trial of prime every time I order (and then cancel it immediately).
I'm in NYC and two day shipping here is a crapshoot nowadays. Sure it says 2-day shipping on the store page, but counting my past orders, 6/10 were delayed delivery, usually taking 5 days. The last 2 times I tried buying bulk paper towels on Amazon (I had them set as a recurring purchase every 6 months) they have been lost in transit.
Also really frustrating, if I go to "Order Details" for an order that was delayed, the "Delivery Estimate" line shows the day it was actually delivered. Not the day it was originally estimated. I had to check my email to find the original delivery estimate.
My situation is similar to yours (except I avoid even the free trials) with similar shipping times. I do have a primary warehouse for my metro area about 5 miles away in my town. I think items that are in that warehouse or on their way to getting replenished arrive as quickly as ever while everything else takes longer. I'm fine with that but I'm also looking to get even further away from using Amazon after some poor recent experiences.
Now that Amazon is mostly low quality drop-shipped garbage from fake brands like KULUZU and PORKTI, fast and cheap shipping are about the only thing they have going for them. If that's gone, what's left?
I would say, new "lows" are in store for Amazon. Amazon is now requiring customers to file police reports in order to have any chance at refunds now. Customer Service spews tons of lies, customers half-heartedly believe in good faith, and then get screwed. Customers then take to social media forums such as Reddit to request help and to vent. Instead they are met with Amazon employees who gaslight them further. Again, and again, and again. This new low appears to have ramped up in February/March 2023.
Amazon's response? Let's not fix the underlying issues in the company. Instead, let's attack all other social media sites for "fake reviews":
"Social media sites failing to curb 'cottage industry' of fake reviews, Amazon says"[1] (Sun 18 Jun 2023 12.27 EDT).
You read that correctly. Amazon. Is accusing everyone else. Of failing to curb "cottage industry" of fake reviews. Hilariously sad. RIP Amazon.
16-Feb-2023: "Amazon making me file a police report after they delivered my neighbors package to my home."[1]
17-Feb-2023: "Delivery Issues"[2]
14-Feb-2023: "My item was marked as “delivered” but isn’t actually here, contacted Amazon and they’re asking for a police report"[3]
25-Jan-2023: "Amazon wants me to file a Police Report."[4]
24-Jan-2023: "Amazon is refusing to refund me for a missing item even after a police report. Has anyone else dealt with this and found a work around?"[5]
*Mon* - Delivery Day: Package Delivered, not my package it’s my neighbors package so we walk it across the street. I chat with Amazon and let them know they delivered my neighbors package but listed it as mine. I am told search around my house and check my mailbox… you must wait till the following day after 6pm before you can contact us again.
*Tues* - Contact them and this is where things should have been easy and I should have just asked for a refund. They ask do you want a refund or new item and I say I just want the item I ordered please. I am told in the next couple days wait for an email with the replacement order..
*Today/Thur* - I chat with them and say I still haven’t received an email and I am immediately greeted with [this](https://i.imgur.com/3m0W4hV.jpg). WTH I have never had an issue before what the hell is going on. I tried to give them my neighbors tracking ID on his package to say that’s the package they delivered as “mine”.
Now I have filed a police report, got my credit card company involved and am waiting for answers. I cannot believe this, they are making it seem as if I CAUSED THIS TO HAPPEN.
Needless to say I’m not happy. Just venting I’ve never been in this position before and this really ruins my experience going forward.
I came home from work on the 11th having seen my parcel as being marked as being “behind the wheelie bin”. No photo attached though. As I went round the back to get it, I noticed that there wasn’t any obvious parcel, I looked around there and back round the front of my house only to find there was no package. I spoke to my neighbours and my housemates to see if they’d seen anyone delivering from Amazon during the day, to which both parties said they hadn’t even seen a van.
I attempted to report this to amazon that day, and was told to wait until Tuesday 14th. I waited and came back to report it then, only to be told that there’s nothing to be done and that I must file a police report if I wish to get my money back.
So I call the non-emergency line (101) and explain to them what’s happened. I’m told in no ...
I hear this, but it's hard for me to believe. I was a customer (in the US) for over 10 years, spending several thousands of dollars without an issue, but then -- on two different instances -- I needed their awesome return policy.
In both cases, they completely stiffed me. That was the final straw that made me stop using Amazon.
Everyone talks about this drop-shipped garbage and fakes. But I have yet to see this. And I feel like I order a lot from Amazon. Every week our house is getting at least a couple packages.
What kind of products people ordering that they're getting fakes? I've ordered a variety of books, art supplies, shoes, some tech like batteries and cable (typically from Anker store), coffee beans, some audio streamers, Legos, notebooks, stuff for pets, gardening supplies, etc...
Interesting. I think I typically must have specific things I'm looking for. Like for example, I probably wouldn't look up "pet sweaters", but WOULD look up something like "canada pooch dog sweater". Which, takes me past all the seo-ad-targeted junk.
And now, the more I think about it, I'm typically using amazon's search for zeroing on something specific. I wouldn't even do "car charger for phone", but would do something like "Anker USB-C Charger for Pixel 6a".
And likely, most items I'm going for I'd be referred to from a site, like America's Test Kitchen or something.
In short, I guess I don't "search for discoverability" on Amazon at all, and that's how I stay out of their optimized mess.
EDIT: I also don't really purchase things that aren't independently reviewed elsewhere, like using ATK for some kitchen items, etc...
I canceled my account recently for the same reason. The two day or same day shipping would never happen even though on the product it was advertised as such.
> Sure it says 2-day shipping on the store page, but counting my past orders, 6/10 were delayed delivery, usually taking 5 days.
When I signed up the guarantee (if not then?) was three days. At first it was good for small town Canada. But then the bottom fell out. But now something may say ship time a week or two but the thing arrives four days later. They're all over the place. One may think incompetence but it's benefiting me.
The other thing I hate it Prime Video more than once I've been two episodes from the end of a show and suddenly the show access is pulled. But oh look you can rent or buy it now for more $$$ on top of your subscription.
Yeah, I'm in PHX, and sometimes it's the same day, sometimes the next, sometimes a week later, despite saying 1-2 days on the order page. It's really kind of a crapshoot. I mean, there are grocery options here and most of the secondary services work too. I also happen to watch a few things on Prime Video (Jack Ryan, Reacher, The Boys, and Terminal List have all been very good). So it's been mostly worth it for me.
The UX, and product reliability are a completely different thing. I won't by any Amazon Basics products ever again, and many technical products (USB Cables, Chargers, etc) are a total crapshoot unless you buy from known mfg and even then who knows for sure.
Disclosure: Work for AWS. My only experience with Prime is as a customer (and the odd beta for new types of programming).
I wouldn't read much into the internal names of things at Amazon. They're picked at random by nerds. I've seen apps internally named after space, Dragon Ball Z, Lord of the Rings, coffee and candy, etc. I'm pretty sure I've used another, completely different thing that's also called Iliad.
It's not malicious. It's just one of those Amazon things that make working there sometimes a chore.
I believe you that some internal names are random, and it's possible that this one is too, but obviously Amazon doesn't have the benefit of the doubt here. What is clearly malicious is that Project Iliad was intentionally designed to reduce cancellations among the population of users that already wanted to cancel (as opposed to reducing cancellations by making the service better). Here's some of the evidence that is redacted in the FTC complaint: https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-prime-ftc-probe-custo...
> Internal documents also show that Amazon intentionally drew out the process of canceling a Prime membership. Under a project code-named "Iliad," Amazon created multiple layers of questions and new offers before a Prime member could cancel their subscription, in hopes of reducing member churn. The number of cancellations dropped by 14% at one point in 2017 following the launch of Iliad, and fewer members were navigating to the final cancellation page, one of the documents said.
The increased “jitter” in shipping times was one of the things that prompted me to cancel Prime a few years ago. Even in NYC my perception was that the standard deviation of transit times had increased significantly.
The other components to the decision were the ever increasing volume of identical no-brand junk/counterfeit products with fake reviews, and the significant improvements in online inventory/buy inline pick up in store options from brick and mortar retailers.
When I signed up for Prime 13(?) years ago very few stores had accurate online inventory, now tons of them do, and the more limited selection actually feels like a benefit.
I always wonder how much money Amazon makes from their UI "tweakers". The people, originally Bezos, who tweaked the UI to be more or less painful selectively throughout the site.
If it makes Amazon Customers 1% LESS LIKELY to unsubscribe, then $$MILLION DOLLAR AMAZONCOM MISSION ACCOMPLISHED$$.
It’s as much as the sign up tbh where it automatically adds Prime to your basket and makes it hard to realise your signing up to a reoccurring payment.
The whole Amazon.com experience has been getting worse and worse as the years go by. Everything from the products they sell, quality control, customer service, dark patterns in the UI, etc.
I wonder how long until you have to call someone or mail in a 1,000 word letter on why you don't need Prime to cancel it.
Would you mind listing a few alternatives you use? I generally try to avoid Amazon when I can, but have had problems finding a general good site.
In case anyone is wondering what I use, here's a short list:
Computer/electronics, I visit Newegg. (I haven't been thrilled with them moving into other areas like Auto parts, etc. but they seem alright for the time being.)
Hardware or similar, I go with Tractor Supply Co, Home Depot, or Lowes.
Music, I go with 7Digital.
Car stuff, I have used NAPA in the past, but I hate that they don't store order history for over 1 year. Also, their search function is not great, and their selection is somewhat limited.
General stuff, I've tried to use Walmart for stuff like pillows or sheets or whatever, but most of the stuff they offer is also offered by Amazon, and Amazon is usually stocked better and generally a few dollars cheaper. I've been weary of trying out sites like Aliexpress.
It's frustrating because it seems like Amazon just generally has a larger selection than most other offerings out there. For more niche subjects, I feel like I have some reasonable options, but when it comes to more broad subjects, it feels like it's Amazon or nothing.
It would be a long list. I buy from local stores rather than online whenever I can. If I can't, then I buy directly from the manufacturer of whatever it is I'm interested in buying.
Except with electronic parts. For those, I typically go with Digikey. For electronic devices and computers, I go to a local recycler. They have what I need about 80% of the time.
I've never had a situation where Amazon was the only option, and rarely a situation where it was the best option.
Thanks for the response! I generally try to shop locally myself, so I know what you mean.
I haven't heard of Digikey before. I'll have to give them a looksee.
For the recycler, have you had any issues or concerns with reused hard drives? I'm aware of how to securely wipe them and whatnot, but I feel like my nerves would still be on end to some degree, no matter how many times I reformatted or securely erased the data on it. Similarly, is it safe to assume that they have some kind of thorough physical cleanliness policy regarding hardware? I've listened to stories of computer repair techs who receive desktops that have literal cockroaches crawling out of them.
When I think of a recycling plant my immediate gut reaction is "dirty", but I feel like that reaction is unfair, if not unfounded. I've never been to that kind of place and am not really sure what to expect.
Honestly so many Amazon items are literally Aliexpress drop shipped items. For most results when you get a random brand name like XYZKA, DKSJD, etc. if you search for that product on Ali, you'll find it at 1/5th the cost and it's literally the same exact item.
Sounds like you make your life more complicated by having to shop in 10 different places. That's why Amazon is practical, it covers a lot of ground. (while they are not the cheapest for many items anymore).
I suppose you could see it that way. I'd offer a counter, if you will hear me out, though.
Generally, I don't see it as any "extra" effort to type in a different website name. I shop with the intention of already knowing what it is I want, it's simply a matter of finding it. I've already set up accounts on each of those sites, and use a password manager. I need to login to each site no matter where I end up because I have my history and cache cleared whenever my browser closes. It's the same process, whether it be Amazon or someone else. Now, compound that with my general distaste with Amazon, and it means I'm essentially completing the same process I would have been completing with Amazon, but without the associated distaste and annoyance.
I think of it this way: If I want quick and cheap food, I go to McDonalds, but generally dislike the place. It serves it's purpose. If I have a hunger for something specific, like Chinese, Italian, etc. I go to those places. The amount of effort expended is the same. The drive time might vary slightly, but each of those niche restaurants is going to be able to cater to that desire much more specifically, and presumably with a higher care of attention and customer service.
That is:
I'm placing an order, regardless.
I'm getting in the car, regardless.
I'm paying, regardless.
All of those actions are required to happen. No matter where I go, effort must be expended, so why use that effort on something lack luster and morally questionable? Wouldn't it be more logical to spend that effort directed at something catered specific to that desire, rather than go to McDonalds and hope that their version of spaghetti and meatballs will be "good enough"?
The morality of a company is more of a secondary factor, though. The things I care most about are if I feel their system is trying to take advantage of me, the consumer, rather than how it treats it's employees. I realize that sounds horrible, but we're not generally privy to what happens behind closed doors. Amazon makes headlines on a regular enough basis to make that sort of abuse common knowledge.
If a company like Newegg acts the same way, it's not something that I am routinely made aware of.
Sure, what Amazon actually sells is convenience. I think it comes at too high of a price (not just talking monetarily), but that's a highly individual kind of determination. Other may think differently, and that's entirely valid as well.
Have you tried searching for anything? They include any vaguely related product and support no negative search terms. Want a glass container, they are going to include dozens of products that don't contain any glass. Want a screw top bottle? They include product listings that don't contain the work screw or any synonyms. It is basically impossible to find specific objects. If you want a pack of clothes pins you are probably fine, but if you want a particular item with specific features it is useless.
I'm also pretty sure there is no way not to get no results. They don't want to say "sorry we don't have that". Instead they give you infinite inaccurate results that you need to go through to confirm that.
Sadly, this has always been how Amazon's search has behaved. It has never been any good at all, unless you already knew a specific model number, in which case that might cause the first entry to be the actual thing you are looking for. But the results page is always filled out, even if searching returned zero hits -- they just stuff something in front of you, because doing that to enough people will result in some percentage of them buying something from those bogus results.
> because doing that to enough people will result in some percentage of them buying something
Yeah, it might have improved things at first. But now I avoid Amazon because I don't want to have to wade though pages of results to find what I am looking for. So they probably shipped this with a temporary blip in sales but didn't consider the long-term effect.
I have had some successes using Bing Chat to find right product from the Amazon catalog. It is a lot better than Amazon's own search. E.g., Which transparent storage boxes sold by Amazon.in are more than 5 inches in height. Bing Chat tells. :-)
Here in Canad Canadian Tire was notorious for Rewards Card pressure sign you up right there. Even roaming sales people in suits pestering you right as you walked in the door and cashiers as you were paying.
To cancel? You need to send in a letter via post. that may be changed but I'm guessing probably not.
Oh and the rewards used to be 5% of cash purchases now it's 0.5% dismal. Just a glorified spam farm for your info.
That's for you. Number one rule or UX design is (or should be) never base a design decision or assume user abilities based upon your own preferences or abilities. Users, especially Amazon users, are a very wide range of people.
Is this process new? I cancelled my Amazon account a couple of years ago, and was genuinely surprised at how easy it was. They didn't even ask me the traditional "Why are you cancelling?" question.
I remember it clearly because it stood out as the only time I interacted with them (outside of buying something) that went without complication.
Now that you mention it, just Prime. I couldn't figure out how to cancel the entire account. Instead, I removed the payment method and have just been ignoring the account's existence.
There are so many of these processes which are so difficult that they border on the outright criminal, but the FTC goes after Amazon because it is a big political target to hit. Maybe from a utilitarian perspective it makes sense.
If successful, it probably sets precedent a lot more effectively than going after smaller targets. Amazon won't care if the FTC goes after some small company; but the small company will probably care if the FTC wins against Amazon.
You don't think there's any political reason they are going after Amazon rather than, say, the New York Times? Just the impartial watchmen of Democracy studiously promoting the adherence to regulation here?
Maybe it's because one is an online bazaar of Chinese plastic crap that uses dark patterns to get people to sign up, and the other is a news organization that doesn't?
There's no obvious reason to suspect a political motivation. That Amazon is an enormous retailer, and newspapers are not, seems like rather sufficient explanation for why the Federal Trade Commission might pay more attention to one than the other.
There are ~10 million NYT subscribers. There are ~160 million Amazon Prime subscribers.
Bad practices by NYT impact 3% of Americans. Bad practices by Amazon impact 48% of Americans.
You can be cynical and say that going after Amazon is political because more voters are impacted, but at the end of the day it seems reasonable to go after the biggest target where the biggest impact can be made to benefit Americans.
I need to buy a mattress and I had one in my cart from a week ago and last night I picked a different mattress and went to the checkout page. Then I saw there were two mattresses in it. It had the dark pattern of no cancel button so I had to click back and now I'm considering getting it elsewhere. Oh, and they also tried to get me to sign up for a Prime trial.
Checkout pages never offer "cancel" buttons or "back" buttons. They are designed to corral you into the checkout process without recourse to returning to shop around some more.
This is, of course, easily bypassed with browser controls, but I agree that it is a dark pattern which can trap less savvy people into pressing forward, because it seems there's nowhere else to go.
When all else fails, for any site like this, I close the browser tab. If I choose to reopen the site, I'll be back on the home page and my cart may or may not be empty.
Sorry to say, but there's a "delete" option for every item on the checkout page. Just click the quantity dropdown and change it to "delete". Simple as.
I don't mind, for whatever reason it wasn't usable for me. And maybe it wasn't there.
Edit: I checked again. It isn't there. Note that I said checkout, not my cart. It has big CTA buttons to go straight to checkout without first going to the cart.
If by "checkout" screen you mean the "Review items and shipping" where the yellow "Place your order" button exists to actually "order" the items, then "delete" is hiding behind the "Qty" dropdown that is present on each item (at least for me). You have to click the "Qty 1" dropdown, and only then does the "delete" option appear.
So it is well hidden away, but at least for my Amazon account, one can delete from the "checkout" screen.
The UK government has a proposed law that customers must be able to end a subscription in a single clear process and all subscriptions entered into online must be capable of being ended online. Seems that if the US pushed this kind of law it'd have a significant effect on improving online services.
One problem I've encountered is the inability to remove a payment method for an active subscription. For example, I pay for several subscriptions with PayPal. I recently wanted to modify my PayPal preference for a particular subscription so that it used my credit card rather than checking account. I normally do this by deleting PayPal and then re-adding it, which goes through the login and account selection flow. I was prohibited from doing this, because since it is an active subscription, I was not allowed to delete the only payment method on it.
However, PayPal has some pretty slick tools for managing recurring payments and subscriptions, so I think I could manage it from the dashboard over there. Haven't checked yet.
SiriusXM needs to be reported mercilessly. Their cancellation process requires chatting with someone who tries to offer you better deals to stay, which of course only last for a few months, then the original price kicks back in. It takes 15 minutes to go through the process. The sad thing is that I'd love to activate their service for a month here or month there, but their cancellation process is too painful to do so, so they just lose out on my business, and piss me off at the same time. A real lose-lose scenario!
I canceled my SiriusXM sub a couple months after the merger. I was an XM subscriber that was "merged in" and when the merger finished, one of the big reasons why I was an XM subscriber (no talking DJ's on the channels I listened to) vanished and suddenly all the old channels I listened to had talking DJ's everywhere.
I had to wait a couple months to cancel because of a weird clause requiring some amount of "sub time" before one could get a pro-rata refund in the agreement.
Cancellation had to be by phone, and the SiriusXM person went so far as to offer a full year of free service to keep me on board. She was quite shocked when I told her, no, not even a free year will keep me as a subscriber. I also asked her to be sure to tell her managers that the reason why they lost a sub was adding talking DJ's to channels that previously had none.
I switched to a commercial free, DJ free mp3 player for my commute, and eventually the "mp3 player" was replaced by my cell phone.
That "single, clear process" should be the website & app of the card issuer the subscription is through. The user should also be able to see clear limits & term durations via the card, before commute to the service, provider be-damned.
Significant redactions around Amazon executives being aware of a "nonconsensual enrollment problem" and blocking any changes.
> the primary purpose of the Prime cancellation process was not to enable subscribers to cancel, but rather to thwart them. Fittingly, Amazon named that process “Iliad,” which refers to Homer’s epic about the long, arduous Trojan War. Amazon designed the Iliad cancellation process (“Iliad Flow”) to be labyrinthine, and Amazon and its leadership—including Lindsay, Grandinetti, and Ghani—slowed or rejected user experience changes that would have made Iliad simpler for consumers because those changes adversely affected Amazon’s bottom line.
A lot of the evidence in the complaint is completely redacted. FTC says "For now, the FTC’s complaint is significantly redacted, though the FTC has told the Court it does not find the need for ongoing secrecy compelling."
I didn't see any that were that obvious, but it sounds like the redactions are at Amazon's request, so they probably went for anything that could conceivably be construed as private information.
E.g. lines 7 and 9 it's "checkout" or "upsell". Probably the latter. Can't be the same as the longer redacted term on line 7 - though I suppose it might be an abbreviation for it and they're protecting their internal product/codename for some lawyerly reason?
it could just be as simple as a group of persons as amazon didn't want certain words associated with them on a public government document. Lot easier to deflect accusations of overly aggressive upselling when you can just say "the report released by the government never once mentioned upselling" and just pretend that you don't need to answer the question based on that.
Glad to see this for the precedent, though Prime is far from the worst offender of employing dark patterns to cancel memberships.
I'd love to see FTC target cancellations that require you to call a phone number and speak with someone. There's always a very long wait, and once you speak to someone you have to do gymnastics to get them to cancel.
Dark patterns like this should be regulated. I'm tired of having to click through obfuscated menus to cancel subscriptions, notifications, and tracking.
heh, a few years ago I cancelled my Prime membership but Amazon still charged me the $99 for the membership after I canceled...
So when I contacted them, I got a refund for the $99, but I also told them they needed to pay me a $25 inconvenice fee for having to waste my time to call them for this....
Good. Let’s hope the fine is so high it means the end for Amazon. But I doubt it, so we’ll probably see them continuing to offer shitty UX for years to come.
According to other comments here, they called the cancellation process "Iliad" - someone likes their Greek mythology and war porn, I guess. I suppose one should be grateful they didn't call it Oedipus - that would be one way to almost guarantee customer retention.
Wild the FTC isn't suing the NYTimes, WSJ, or every other paid news outlet for far more egregious cancellation process practices. Almost as if the FTC is a political weapon.
For one, "never get in a dispute with a business that buys ink by the IBC tote"
Modulo that underlying dynamic, do you have a specific argument about how the status quo governmental power structure performing the tiniest bit of regulation on the status quo corporate power structure is "political" ? Or are we just supposed to not think too hard and jump to some kayfabe partisan narrative?
>Wild the FTC isn't suing the NYTimes, WSJ, or every other paid news outlet for far more egregious cancellation process practices. Almost as if the FTC is a political weapon.
I'd posit that suing news organizations would be perceived as more political than a retailer.
Probably because newspapers are notorious to be the worst of the worst when trying to cancel free deals that automatically turn into expensive memberships.
Common methods are to only allow cancellation through telephone and only have open during work hours when most people can't call. If you manage to get hold of a human being, then you'll have to spend an hour arguing before they accept your cancellation. Then, even if you manage to get through it, you're missing the paper trail so the newspaper can just claim you changed your mind.
As late as yesterday, the Swedish Consumer Agency published a report on the issue.
>Probably because newspapers are notorious to be the worst of the worst when trying to cancel free deals that automatically turn into expensive memberships.
You won't get any argument about that from me. To butcher Mel Brooks: "...they stink on ice!"[0]
However, that's orthogonal to my point -- that going after a newspaper would likely be perceived as more political than going after a retailer, especially in the highly charged US political environment.
I've been tricked into signing up for Prime a few times. Luckily it was a free month each time, so I canceled as soon as I noticed and took advantage of the free offer. Thing is, over a certain value "free" means the free you get anyway and the Prime way. I stay away as much as I can. Hate them.
I still use amazon occasionally, but I think of it basically as interacting with a criminal that I know is completely dishonest and trying every trick to steal from me. Unfortunately there are sometimes still occasions when I have to hold my nose and do it, but they're getting fewer and farther between.
When Amazon was really getting going (say 2015?) I hardly ever went to physical stores and was so happy to have a better alternative. Now everything sucks.
Very similar to uber, it was such a breath of fresh air compared to taxis, now it's worse than them.
These "disruptors" that just buy their market position suck.
The world is a big place. In Montreal and Toronto, and imo many airports, Taxis are better. They come faster and more reliably, I have a real person to deal with, none of uber's bullshit, and the car and driver are no different. I'm sure it's possible to find places where this isn't true. When uber first came out, it was head and shoulders above taxis though.
Wow I looked at this for a solid 10 seconds before seeing the "no thanks" and that was even with your bright red arrow pointing at it. The must have user tested this to hell to find the absolute perfect combination of design elements
This is the "trick you into signing up" page that is inserted if you are not currently a prime member.
I've been clicking the "no-thanks" link for years -- as I've never signed up for, nor ever wanted to sign up for, amazon prime.
But, as I know it is going to show up, I'm not surprised by it in the least, and I know where to go to get past it without accidentally signing up for prime. Maybe the FCC complaint might finally make this nice dark pattern example finally go away.
If I remember correctly, they've also moved around the "No thanks" over the years. I seem to remember the "No thanks" option being below the "Enjoy Prime for FREE for blah ..." area a while back. I could swear the prompt changes sometimes between this more standard screenshot above, and some weird pitch geared specifically towards college students, where the "No thanks" option is considerably harder to see.
I was trying to reproduce the prompt that I was thinking of and found an equally obnoxious prompt:
Which defaults to trying to steal any gift card balance you have in order to pay for Prime.
I knew that Amazon was awful, but it's really gotten so far out of hand that it's surprising they haven't had the sort of legal trouble Microsoft had back in '98.
This administration selected the current FTC commissioner because of an op-ed attacking Amazon and a glowing profile both published in the New York Times.
The FTC lawsuits against Meta and now Amazon are politically motivated and are a misuse of the the system if not outright corruption.
Good. As someone who hasn't been careful enough and been caught by Amazon's deceptive practices myself, I hope they get them as good and hard as the law allows. If they have to put a boot on Bezos's spaceship, that would be an amusing benefit of the whole thing.
I don't appreciate being subject to one dark pattern after another just to buy an sd card or a bath towel.
For anyone that works on something like this, either at Amazon or elsewhere, I'm genuinely curious how the meetings/discussions around building a purposefully terrible UI go. I assume everyone knows what's going on (i.e. making it difficult to cancel); does anyone ever speak up? Do people just go along with it?
Speaking up is a career limiting move in the short term. In the long term you have survivorship bias. The people that speak up tend to not be there for long. Not directly because they're fired, but indirectly because they get frustrated.
Even if it's designed correctly initially, the areas has a permanent bull-eyes for someone's promo packet to go and optimize.
> Speaking up is a career limiting move in the short term.
What do you mean by "career limiting"? Just at the company in question, perhaps, but speaking up like that should be considered a good thing. If it's not, why would you want to continue working there?
Yes, it might! But there are lots of employers who value employees who are focused on customer experience.
It's probably limited my opportunities some, but I can't really tell. There are plenty of opportunities out there, and if a company doesn't want me because I'm willing to be honest and argue for what I think is right, then that's a company I don't want to work for anyway. So it all works out for the best for everybody.
I totally understand and respect your ideals. I wish more people were like you. But at the same time you fail the see the nuance for why others might make a different decision. I think it's reasonable for someone to take a moral stance here, and I can also respect someone that choses to stay at the job that's the best at providing for their family. That's the insight I was providing.
> But at the same time you fail the see the nuance for why others might make a different decision.
Umm, I totally see why others would decide differently. Everyone makes their own choices and trade-offs.
I was just trying to point out that if the objection is that doing those sorts of things is a career-killer, that's objectively not true. It might mean that certain specific companies won't like you, but you won't be rejected by the industry overall.
Other employers call to learn how your previous employment was at Amazon, and Amazon talks mad trash about you and makes up whatever they want is basically the deal. Like a cult, and you are ostracized from that cult.
> Amazon talks mad trash about you and makes up whatever they want is basically the deal
I doubt Amazon does this. It would expose them to too much legal risk. Almost no large employers (in the US) will say much more than "This person worked here from date X to date Y and they (are/are not) eligible for rehire."
Not being eligible for rehire is a black mark with many potential employers, of course. But then, having Amazon in your work history is also a black mark with some employers.
> I doubt Amazon does this. It would expose them to too much legal risk. Almost no large employers (in the US) will say much more than "This person worked here from date X to date Y and they (are/are not) eligible for rehire."
You are overlooking the salient fact that managers and recruiters know each other from one company to another. Backend conversations matter.
If you speak up you receive "the formula": psychological abuse, placed on PIP, and fired via some perceived loophole. It's bad. And it's gotten considerably worse in 2021-2023.
I remember when this was first rolled out. You'd go to buy something on Amazon, and the whole page would be a Prime ad, while some tiny little text would say something like "no thanks take me to checkout." This change was when I knew that Amazon had jumped the shark and was certainly no longer "obsessively customer focused." We had actually bought Prime accidentally via this method. Now in my family we make it a specific point that we won't buy anything on Amazon.
It means Amazon knows they are kings of online retail and have no problem abusing customers now.
Walmart online is sometimes cheaper, but also sometimes more expensive. Makes it really hard to make the switch. I have refused to give money to bad companies, but with the rest of the world being manipulated into giving them money, I realized I never made a dent.
I cut out Amazon recently and there's something to be said about specialized online retailers. I used to think the idea of having a different retailer for each category was a bygone relic of the past after Amazon, but I'm starting to enjoy the better selection and customer support I get from companies like Chewy, Sweetwater, Costco, etc. A one-stop retailer is a convenience, but they suffer from the classic "jack of all trades" problem with their selection and only end up being a logistics company for delivering mass mediocrity.
I find that Amazon's prices are their trap, and it gives the illusion of having more. I buy lots of cheap components for creating music, and I get far better quality for my dollar from Sweetwater than I ever have on Amazon, even if Amazon's prices were lower.
I think this is fooling ourselves. The cheap 3d Printer filament is fine.
Its weird because a mega corporation would consider the quality and if it meets the qualities, they would buy the cheapest price(with few other considerations, maybe china-US relations might deter).
In this case, the objective right answer is to buy the cheapest when it comes to 3D printer filament, as long as it meets the quality. It does.
I wonder if its some emotional decision to buy a more expensive product that performs equally.
You come off as condescending to assume that someone who doesn't agree with you must be doing so on an emotional basis. That's like me assuming your response is based in a need to justify being cheap. I'm speaking of a specific area - musical components - where I've seen firsthand myself having to replace parts from the Amazon-featured products, where the parts I buy elsewhere at a marginally higher price have never once needed replacing. Sure, maybe your filaments are serving your needs, but my point flat-out was that approach does not fill mine.
> Walmart online is sometimes cheaper, but also sometimes more expensive. Makes it really hard to make the switch.
I respect that you have to make decisions based on your own financial situation. For me, getting a few things for less money with the possibility that you might suddenly get hit with a big charge for something you didn't actually sign up for voluntarily is not worth it. To me it's like putting off fixing a car problem. You're saving money in the short term, but it could cause other much more expensive (or fatal) problems later. It's just too much risk for me. (But I have also been in a position where I had to put off a car fix because I simply didn't have the money. It absolutely sucked.)
>I respect that you have to make decisions based on your own financial situation.
Idk, I worked for a lot of companies, and I'm not sure any would pick the same product when its more expensive elsewhere under the fear of an unexpected charge that has never occurred before.
I suppose I should be preparing for a volcano to emerge in the north east US too. :P
The Little Old Lady I help out with her computer got hit by this. Didn't understand that she has signed up for Amazon Prime. I cancelled it but saw the trick. Basically, they re-used the "Amazon yellow EXECUTE!" style for purchases as part of the sign-up flow.
The elderly seem to favor a lot of muscle memory over reading the screen, so any UI updates are painful.
Tangential: Does anyone have a good alternative to privacy.com? I really don't want to use Plaid to integrate but I basically need disposable/controllable cards for online purchases because so many places have poor security and dark patterns.
Even if there was a privacy.com alternative (I'm not aware of one), they would almost certainly use Plaid. As far as I can tell it's the financial-institution-backed industry standard these days.
...you can use your 'local' AZ account for other countries, which i was used to, so i assumed Prime would work like that too - nope, that is bound to only the specific store you subscribed at. And they couldn't (wouldn't) transfer it.
Just used the free trial to get something in time before i left another country, and nicely wasted some $$ because i wasn't aware they will refund you for every remaining month.
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[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 264 ms ] thread(I know many of you in urban areas are getting one day shipping but those of us in less favored geographies, such as the same ZIP code as AMZN warehouses, have seen two day shipping turn into five, which makes Amazon uncompetitive with going to the store or with other e-tailers which usually offer faster shipping.)
Walmart offers Walmart Plus - I've never used it but it looks infinitely less sketchy. Between that and the fact that Walmart has its supply chain under control ("commingling", anyone) the choice is easy.
How? Patience. I add things I plan to order to my cart, and once the collection goes above the "free ship" threshold (currently $25) only then do I place an order.
Of course, on the order page they always default to "paid shipping" and force one to explicitly check the "free shipping" radio button to actually get free shipping.
Some years back it felt like Amazon deliberately delayed for an extra week any "free shipping" packages -- they would sit, waiting, for about a week, then packed, shipped, and arrived in about 4 days. I always attributed it to Amazon punishing those who chose to gain free shipping without signing up for prime. But over the last few years that "delay" has shrunk such that it no longer seems like "free shipping" packages get intentionally delayed to "encourage" prime sign-up next time.
My point is that the "de-prioritization delay" seems to have evaporated and I get items shipped in about the same time as the prime estimates (when they are "shipped by amazon" -- third party shippers are all over the board with shipping delays).
I agree it's not actually that hard to cancel, but the flow is so needlessly complex from a consumer perspective.
It should go straight to a page with three buttons and associated explanations:
1) Cancel at the end of the term 2) Cancel immediately and receive pro-rated refund (Since they offer this, I'm including it here - wouldn't expect it in general) 3) Keep subscription
Cancelling the 2nd time, they refunded me for the unused month. But maybe that was to do with the linked case rather than the goodness of their hearts.
But nah you have to scroll to the bottom and click “Continue canceling” where you’re taken the page you describe.
I don’t know how anyone can say this isn’t deceptive. If I click cancel membership, I shouldn’t be taken to a no-op interstitial page that makes me scroll to find a “continue canceling” button. That only exists to look like a “Canceled successfully” page.
> Under substantial pressure from the Commission, Amazon changed its Iliad cancellation process in or about April 2023, shortly before the filing of this Complaint.
- page 43, https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/amazon-rosca-pu...
Also really frustrating, if I go to "Order Details" for an order that was delayed, the "Delivery Estimate" line shows the day it was actually delivered. Not the day it was originally estimated. I had to check my email to find the original delivery estimate.
Without prime I still order from them more than I feel good about, but only ever opt for the free, slow, shipping.
I’m at something like 30% deliver relay in 2 days, 40% deliver in less than 5 days, and 30% take the full five days.
combining your experience with my own, really sounds like they’re losing it.
Amazon's response? Let's not fix the underlying issues in the company. Instead, let's attack all other social media sites for "fake reviews":
"Social media sites failing to curb 'cottage industry' of fake reviews, Amazon says"[1] (Sun 18 Jun 2023 12.27 EDT).
You read that correctly. Amazon. Is accusing everyone else. Of failing to curb "cottage industry" of fake reviews. Hilariously sad. RIP Amazon.
[1]https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/18/amazon-social-...
This was the case 4 years ago. I don't think it's new.
Nevertheless, let me find a few examples.
16-Feb-2023: "Amazon making me file a police report after they delivered my neighbors package to my home."[1]
17-Feb-2023: "Delivery Issues"[2]
14-Feb-2023: "My item was marked as “delivered” but isn’t actually here, contacted Amazon and they’re asking for a police report"[3]
25-Jan-2023: "Amazon wants me to file a Police Report."[4]
24-Jan-2023: "Amazon is refusing to refund me for a missing item even after a police report. Has anyone else dealt with this and found a work around?"[5]
[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/1147wmo/amazon...
Title says it all. This is straight up BS.
*Mon* - Delivery Day: Package Delivered, not my package it’s my neighbors package so we walk it across the street. I chat with Amazon and let them know they delivered my neighbors package but listed it as mine. I am told search around my house and check my mailbox… you must wait till the following day after 6pm before you can contact us again.
*Tues* - Contact them and this is where things should have been easy and I should have just asked for a refund. They ask do you want a refund or new item and I say I just want the item I ordered please. I am told in the next couple days wait for an email with the replacement order..
*Today/Thur* - I chat with them and say I still haven’t received an email and I am immediately greeted with [this](https://i.imgur.com/3m0W4hV.jpg). WTH I have never had an issue before what the hell is going on. I tried to give them my neighbors tracking ID on his package to say that’s the package they delivered as “mine”.
Now I have filed a police report, got my credit card company involved and am waiting for answers. I cannot believe this, they are making it seem as if I CAUSED THIS TO HAPPEN.
Needless to say I’m not happy. Just venting I’ve never been in this position before and this really ruins my experience going forward.
[2]https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/114korw/delive...
[3]https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/112ovsg/my_ite...
I came home from work on the 11th having seen my parcel as being marked as being “behind the wheelie bin”. No photo attached though. As I went round the back to get it, I noticed that there wasn’t any obvious parcel, I looked around there and back round the front of my house only to find there was no package. I spoke to my neighbours and my housemates to see if they’d seen anyone delivering from Amazon during the day, to which both parties said they hadn’t even seen a van.
I attempted to report this to amazon that day, and was told to wait until Tuesday 14th. I waited and came back to report it then, only to be told that there’s nothing to be done and that I must file a police report if I wish to get my money back.
So I call the non-emergency line (101) and explain to them what’s happened. I’m told in no ...
In both cases, they completely stiffed me. That was the final straw that made me stop using Amazon.
What kind of products people ordering that they're getting fakes? I've ordered a variety of books, art supplies, shoes, some tech like batteries and cable (typically from Anker store), coffee beans, some audio streamers, Legos, notebooks, stuff for pets, gardening supplies, etc...
Look up "pet sweaters". Resulting brands listed in order: Dxhycc, Fitwarm, ANIAC, Jecikelon, Queenmore.
"Audio streamer": WiiM, Andover, iFi, Arylic, Douk, ACEMAX.
"USB cable": Jelly tang, AINOPE, Ruaeoda, etguuds.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
And now, the more I think about it, I'm typically using amazon's search for zeroing on something specific. I wouldn't even do "car charger for phone", but would do something like "Anker USB-C Charger for Pixel 6a".
And likely, most items I'm going for I'd be referred to from a site, like America's Test Kitchen or something.
In short, I guess I don't "search for discoverability" on Amazon at all, and that's how I stay out of their optimized mess.
EDIT: I also don't really purchase things that aren't independently reviewed elsewhere, like using ATK for some kitchen items, etc...
When I signed up the guarantee (if not then?) was three days. At first it was good for small town Canada. But then the bottom fell out. But now something may say ship time a week or two but the thing arrives four days later. They're all over the place. One may think incompetence but it's benefiting me.
The other thing I hate it Prime Video more than once I've been two episodes from the end of a show and suddenly the show access is pulled. But oh look you can rent or buy it now for more $$$ on top of your subscription.
The UX, and product reliability are a completely different thing. I won't by any Amazon Basics products ever again, and many technical products (USB Cables, Chargers, etc) are a total crapshoot unless you buy from known mfg and even then who knows for sure.
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/amazon-rosca-pu...
I wouldn't read much into the internal names of things at Amazon. They're picked at random by nerds. I've seen apps internally named after space, Dragon Ball Z, Lord of the Rings, coffee and candy, etc. I'm pretty sure I've used another, completely different thing that's also called Iliad.
It's not malicious. It's just one of those Amazon things that make working there sometimes a chore.
> Internal documents also show that Amazon intentionally drew out the process of canceling a Prime membership. Under a project code-named "Iliad," Amazon created multiple layers of questions and new offers before a Prime member could cancel their subscription, in hopes of reducing member churn. The number of cancellations dropped by 14% at one point in 2017 following the launch of Iliad, and fewer members were navigating to the final cancellation page, one of the documents said.
Most of the common items we order are 1-2 day shipping. Less popular items can be several days or more.
The other components to the decision were the ever increasing volume of identical no-brand junk/counterfeit products with fake reviews, and the significant improvements in online inventory/buy inline pick up in store options from brick and mortar retailers.
When I signed up for Prime 13(?) years ago very few stores had accurate online inventory, now tons of them do, and the more limited selection actually feels like a benefit.
If it makes Amazon Customers 1% LESS LIKELY to unsubscribe, then $$MILLION DOLLAR AMAZONCOM MISSION ACCOMPLISHED$$.
I wonder how long until you have to call someone or mail in a 1,000 word letter on why you don't need Prime to cancel it.
Life Pro Tip: Be a shareholder, don't be a customer.
Maybe, but they are still miles better than most other online shops, so they still get to grow. Just for the return policy, they are kind of worth it.
In case anyone is wondering what I use, here's a short list:
Computer/electronics, I visit Newegg. (I haven't been thrilled with them moving into other areas like Auto parts, etc. but they seem alright for the time being.)
Hardware or similar, I go with Tractor Supply Co, Home Depot, or Lowes.
Music, I go with 7Digital.
Car stuff, I have used NAPA in the past, but I hate that they don't store order history for over 1 year. Also, their search function is not great, and their selection is somewhat limited.
General stuff, I've tried to use Walmart for stuff like pillows or sheets or whatever, but most of the stuff they offer is also offered by Amazon, and Amazon is usually stocked better and generally a few dollars cheaper. I've been weary of trying out sites like Aliexpress.
It's frustrating because it seems like Amazon just generally has a larger selection than most other offerings out there. For more niche subjects, I feel like I have some reasonable options, but when it comes to more broad subjects, it feels like it's Amazon or nothing.
Except with electronic parts. For those, I typically go with Digikey. For electronic devices and computers, I go to a local recycler. They have what I need about 80% of the time.
I've never had a situation where Amazon was the only option, and rarely a situation where it was the best option.
I haven't heard of Digikey before. I'll have to give them a looksee.
For the recycler, have you had any issues or concerns with reused hard drives? I'm aware of how to securely wipe them and whatnot, but I feel like my nerves would still be on end to some degree, no matter how many times I reformatted or securely erased the data on it. Similarly, is it safe to assume that they have some kind of thorough physical cleanliness policy regarding hardware? I've listened to stories of computer repair techs who receive desktops that have literal cockroaches crawling out of them.
When I think of a recycling plant my immediate gut reaction is "dirty", but I feel like that reaction is unfair, if not unfounded. I've never been to that kind of place and am not really sure what to expect.
Do you mean buying used ones? I've never had an issue with them at all, no.
I never donate my old hard drives. I keep them forever, as a kind of last-ditch backup. I have a collection of them that goes back to late '80s.
> Similarly, is it safe to assume that they have some kind of thorough physical cleanliness policy regarding hardware?
At this place, everything they sell is as clean as if it were new, inside and out.
Generally, I don't see it as any "extra" effort to type in a different website name. I shop with the intention of already knowing what it is I want, it's simply a matter of finding it. I've already set up accounts on each of those sites, and use a password manager. I need to login to each site no matter where I end up because I have my history and cache cleared whenever my browser closes. It's the same process, whether it be Amazon or someone else. Now, compound that with my general distaste with Amazon, and it means I'm essentially completing the same process I would have been completing with Amazon, but without the associated distaste and annoyance.
I think of it this way: If I want quick and cheap food, I go to McDonalds, but generally dislike the place. It serves it's purpose. If I have a hunger for something specific, like Chinese, Italian, etc. I go to those places. The amount of effort expended is the same. The drive time might vary slightly, but each of those niche restaurants is going to be able to cater to that desire much more specifically, and presumably with a higher care of attention and customer service.
That is:
I'm placing an order, regardless.
I'm getting in the car, regardless.
I'm paying, regardless.
All of those actions are required to happen. No matter where I go, effort must be expended, so why use that effort on something lack luster and morally questionable? Wouldn't it be more logical to spend that effort directed at something catered specific to that desire, rather than go to McDonalds and hope that their version of spaghetti and meatballs will be "good enough"?
How do you judge that other online business that have a lower profile than Amazon are not morally questionable?
The morality of a company is more of a secondary factor, though. The things I care most about are if I feel their system is trying to take advantage of me, the consumer, rather than how it treats it's employees. I realize that sounds horrible, but we're not generally privy to what happens behind closed doors. Amazon makes headlines on a regular enough basis to make that sort of abuse common knowledge.
If a company like Newegg acts the same way, it's not something that I am routinely made aware of.
I mentioned return policy. You said nothing about that.
In my personal experience, Amazon has the worst return policy of anywhere I've shopped.
Not my experience at all, Actually completely the opposite. Amazon has had the very best return policy, with no questions asked.
I'm also pretty sure there is no way not to get no results. They don't want to say "sorry we don't have that". Instead they give you infinite inaccurate results that you need to go through to confirm that.
Yeah, it might have improved things at first. But now I avoid Amazon because I don't want to have to wade though pages of results to find what I am looking for. So they probably shipped this with a temporary blip in sales but didn't consider the long-term effect.
Try search on most online shopping sites and despair. Amazon is hardly the worst one.
To cancel? You need to send in a letter via post. that may be changed but I'm guessing probably not.
Oh and the rewards used to be 5% of cash purchases now it's 0.5% dismal. Just a glorified spam farm for your info.
To be fair, that's all rewards/loyalty programs. But clearly, some are worse than others.
I remember it clearly because it stood out as the only time I interacted with them (outside of buying something) that went without complication.
Bad practices by NYT impact 3% of Americans. Bad practices by Amazon impact 48% of Americans.
You can be cynical and say that going after Amazon is political because more voters are impacted, but at the end of the day it seems reasonable to go after the biggest target where the biggest impact can be made to benefit Americans.
This is, of course, easily bypassed with browser controls, but I agree that it is a dark pattern which can trap less savvy people into pressing forward, because it seems there's nowhere else to go.
Edit: I checked again. It isn't there. Note that I said checkout, not my cart. It has big CTA buttons to go straight to checkout without first going to the cart.
It is there for the "cart" screen but once you get to checkout, you are stuck either proceeding or abandoning the page.
So it is well hidden away, but at least for my Amazon account, one can delete from the "checkout" screen.
However, PayPal has some pretty slick tools for managing recurring payments and subscriptions, so I think I could manage it from the dashboard over there. Haven't checked yet.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.x....
I had to wait a couple months to cancel because of a weird clause requiring some amount of "sub time" before one could get a pro-rata refund in the agreement.
Cancellation had to be by phone, and the SiriusXM person went so far as to offer a full year of free service to keep me on board. She was quite shocked when I told her, no, not even a free year will keep me as a subscriber. I also asked her to be sure to tell her managers that the reason why they lost a sub was adding talking DJ's to channels that previously had none.
I switched to a commercial free, DJ free mp3 player for my commute, and eventually the "mp3 player" was replaced by my cell phone.
Significant redactions around Amazon executives being aware of a "nonconsensual enrollment problem" and blocking any changes.
> the primary purpose of the Prime cancellation process was not to enable subscribers to cancel, but rather to thwart them. Fittingly, Amazon named that process “Iliad,” which refers to Homer’s epic about the long, arduous Trojan War. Amazon designed the Iliad cancellation process (“Iliad Flow”) to be labyrinthine, and Amazon and its leadership—including Lindsay, Grandinetti, and Ghani—slowed or rejected user experience changes that would have made Iliad simpler for consumers because those changes adversely affected Amazon’s bottom line.
A lot of the evidence in the complaint is completely redacted. FTC says "For now, the FTC’s complaint is significantly redacted, though the FTC has told the Court it does not find the need for ongoing secrecy compelling."
Wonder who allegorized as the customer for them, say Priam, Hector or Cassandra?
The first two are of course slaughtered, while the last is merely enslaved, IIRC. So I'd bet on Cassandra.
I'd love to see FTC target cancellations that require you to call a phone number and speak with someone. There's always a very long wait, and once you speak to someone you have to do gymnastics to get them to cancel.
If by "regulated", you mean that dark patterns should be prohibited, then I agree.
So when I contacted them, I got a refund for the $99, but I also told them they needed to pay me a $25 inconvenice fee for having to waste my time to call them for this....
They paid it.
Modulo that underlying dynamic, do you have a specific argument about how the status quo governmental power structure performing the tiniest bit of regulation on the status quo corporate power structure is "political" ? Or are we just supposed to not think too hard and jump to some kayfabe partisan narrative?
I'd posit that suing news organizations would be perceived as more political than a retailer.
Or am I missing something important here?
Probably because newspapers are notorious to be the worst of the worst when trying to cancel free deals that automatically turn into expensive memberships.
Common methods are to only allow cancellation through telephone and only have open during work hours when most people can't call. If you manage to get hold of a human being, then you'll have to spend an hour arguing before they accept your cancellation. Then, even if you manage to get through it, you're missing the paper trail so the newspaper can just claim you changed your mind.
As late as yesterday, the Swedish Consumer Agency published a report on the issue.
You won't get any argument about that from me. To butcher Mel Brooks: "...they stink on ice!"[0]
However, that's orthogonal to my point -- that going after a newspaper would likely be perceived as more political than going after a retailer, especially in the highly charged US political environment.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0iAcQVIokg
Very similar to uber, it was such a breath of fresh air compared to taxis, now it's worse than them.
These "disruptors" that just buy their market position suck.
https://imgur.com/a/6PcJLFY
I've been clicking the "no-thanks" link for years -- as I've never signed up for, nor ever wanted to sign up for, amazon prime.
But, as I know it is going to show up, I'm not surprised by it in the least, and I know where to go to get past it without accidentally signing up for prime. Maybe the FCC complaint might finally make this nice dark pattern example finally go away.
I was trying to reproduce the prompt that I was thinking of and found an equally obnoxious prompt:
https://i.imgur.com/8HNjFHl.png
If you accidentally click on prime, you are shown this
https://i.imgur.com/hL60GFc.png
Which makes it seem like you can't even remove the "free" Prime trial, unless you look extremely closely.
Alternatively, if you do click on free shipping, but not on Prime free shipping, you get a popup showing this
https://i.imgur.com/AHX2KNg.png
Which defaults to trying to steal any gift card balance you have in order to pay for Prime.
I knew that Amazon was awful, but it's really gotten so far out of hand that it's surprising they haven't had the sort of legal trouble Microsoft had back in '98.
The FTC lawsuits against Meta and now Amazon are politically motivated and are a misuse of the the system if not outright corruption.
I don't appreciate being subject to one dark pattern after another just to buy an sd card or a bath towel.
Just subscribe to the NYT in the first place via Google Play instead of using their own site, lmao.
But seriously, Sirius XM hold the record for being absolute cancer to cancel.
Even if it's designed correctly initially, the areas has a permanent bull-eyes for someone's promo packet to go and optimize.
What do you mean by "career limiting"? Just at the company in question, perhaps, but speaking up like that should be considered a good thing. If it's not, why would you want to continue working there?
Career limiting means you'll see less career advancements.
> speaking up like that should be considered a good thing.
Agreed. But in practice it's unfortunately not always seen that way.
> If it's not, why would you want to continue working there?
Because I weight several factors when deciding where to work and there are other benefits to working here.
So you mean career-limiting at that particular company? I understand. Thanks!
In areas with very close knit industries it can hurt your opportunities.
It's probably limited my opportunities some, but I can't really tell. There are plenty of opportunities out there, and if a company doesn't want me because I'm willing to be honest and argue for what I think is right, then that's a company I don't want to work for anyway. So it all works out for the best for everybody.
Umm, I totally see why others would decide differently. Everyone makes their own choices and trade-offs.
I was just trying to point out that if the objection is that doing those sorts of things is a career-killer, that's objectively not true. It might mean that certain specific companies won't like you, but you won't be rejected by the industry overall.
I doubt Amazon does this. It would expose them to too much legal risk. Almost no large employers (in the US) will say much more than "This person worked here from date X to date Y and they (are/are not) eligible for rehire."
Not being eligible for rehire is a black mark with many potential employers, of course. But then, having Amazon in your work history is also a black mark with some employers.
Nobody is desirable to all potential employers.
You are overlooking the salient fact that managers and recruiters know each other from one company to another. Backend conversations matter.
It means Amazon knows they are kings of online retail and have no problem abusing customers now.
Walmart online is sometimes cheaper, but also sometimes more expensive. Makes it really hard to make the switch. I have refused to give money to bad companies, but with the rest of the world being manipulated into giving them money, I realized I never made a dent.
Its weird because a mega corporation would consider the quality and if it meets the qualities, they would buy the cheapest price(with few other considerations, maybe china-US relations might deter).
In this case, the objective right answer is to buy the cheapest when it comes to 3D printer filament, as long as it meets the quality. It does.
I wonder if its some emotional decision to buy a more expensive product that performs equally.
I respect that you have to make decisions based on your own financial situation. For me, getting a few things for less money with the possibility that you might suddenly get hit with a big charge for something you didn't actually sign up for voluntarily is not worth it. To me it's like putting off fixing a car problem. You're saving money in the short term, but it could cause other much more expensive (or fatal) problems later. It's just too much risk for me. (But I have also been in a position where I had to put off a car fix because I simply didn't have the money. It absolutely sucked.)
Idk, I worked for a lot of companies, and I'm not sure any would pick the same product when its more expensive elsewhere under the fear of an unexpected charge that has never occurred before.
I suppose I should be preparing for a volcano to emerge in the north east US too. :P
The elderly seem to favor a lot of muscle memory over reading the screen, so any UI updates are painful.
Just used the free trial to get something in time before i left another country, and nicely wasted some $$ because i wasn't aware they will refund you for every remaining month.