Certainly not cruelty free. Arguably less cruel. The extraction of the resources needed to grow the meat shifts a lot of the cruelty to wild animals, not to mention that you still need barnyard animals involved in the process, but the technology is quite neat so it is definitely positive marketing on that end. Being still less efficient to produce, that marketing will also be necessary to compel the buyer to pay more.
for all mammalian eukaryotic cells ie cow , chicken ,human etc require growth media that contains FBS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_bovine_serum this extracted from the foetus of cattle, otherwise the cells cannot survive outside of the a live mammal. it is not vegan or vegetarian in the slightest
FBS is used because it's versatile, whereas chemically-defined media have to be painstakingly reformulated for different cell lines. It's not a hard requirement.
would taking a tissue sample be considered cruelty if they claim it doesn't harm the animal? the article doesn't mention wild animals as well. or do you mean by "extraction of resources" the energy costs of processing?
Throw me into whatever category we want to call this.
If 1 animal dies and all of humanity can stop eating meat, I'm happy to do that.
Heck I'd sacrifice myself for such a value.
But it sounds like this is a ~1 time prick of an animal, who could be sedated, and after that, you don't need the animal again.
I want to be vegan because of cruelty, but not eating meat because it came from a pricked animal 1 time in history sounds like a religion.
EDIT: Someone said this, which makes me think its not vegan at all, even with my definition. (Although this would probably put pro-choice vegans in a dilemma)
>for all mammalian eukaryotic cells ie cow , chicken ,human etc require growth media that contains FBS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_bovine_serum this extracted from the foetus of cattle, otherwise the cells cannot survive outside of the a live mammal. it is not vegan or vegetarian in the slightest
> If 1 animal dies and all of humanity can stop eating meat, I'm happy to do that.
You still need resources to grow the meat, and many animals will be harmed and killed in the process of extracting those resources. Probably many more animals than would be harmed using traditional meat raising practices as when humans extract resources we like to strip things bare. Other animals tend to be a lot gentler on habitats.
Of course, if you are only concerned about cute, domesticated animals then you may find success here.
I guess you don't use electricity either because of logging and coal mining. What about the internet and all those resources needed for the data centra?
Nobody here is. There is no possibility to virtue signal in this case as the audience will never see it.
Sorry that I let out your little secret that animals are harmed in the process of resource extraction. I don't think it was ever much of a secret, though.
> You still need resources to grow the meat, and many animals will be harmed and killed in the process of extracting those resources.
This is an absurd stretch of the definition of veganism. If this were accepted, you couldn't call anyone living in any basic form of civilization vegan. It stretches the idea to a point of being useless.
No homes allowed, since their material extraction and the construction process harms animals. No bicycles, those factories harmed animals in being constructed.
Does it come from animals or merely from cells similar to those found in animals?
I wonder what the popular opinion among vegans will be. I certainly don't think it's as clear cut. Or maybe the term veganism will fall out of favor in exchange for something like cruelty free.
per the article:
"making cultured or lab-grown meat starts with extracting cells from an animal’s tissue, be it a pig, cow, chicken, fish, or any other animal that humans deem to be delicious. The cell extraction doesn’t kill or harm the animal."
I think it's more because the medium used to grow the cells has to be so heavily processed it results in more waste. A chicken will grow in a dirty yard with enough water and corn meal while scratching for bugs and worms. A cell culture requires a nutrient bath that is completely sterile. So instead of just feeding the corn to the chickens you are processing a ton of corn to produce glucose and such...
I think eventually they will create bio reactors that can process corn like a chicken can, but it will essentially just be a chicken without a brain. Meat is honestly disgusting when you think too much about it.
I’m curious how other vegetarians and vegans feel about eating lab-grown meat? My gut reaction to this is “yuck, meat” [1]. I’ve been following lab-grown meat for a while and haven’t been able to get over this feeling, and for that reason I don’t think I’ll include it in my diet as a vegetarian. Intellectually I know that no animal was killed to produce it, but after going without meat for so long I just find the thought of eating it almost repulsive now.
[1] Now I wonder if this is how everyone with a normal omnivore diet reacts to all those plant-based meats.
Ironically, my response as an omnivore making the switch to more chicken over beef is “yuck, not meat.” I actually like the vegan (fried) chicken substitutes that are available nowadays as well as stuff like almond cheese that stands on its own.
It’ll take a while to get over the internal resistance to the fact that it’s still basically ultra processed meat substitute. I’ve grown tissue culture in a lab and that does not sound even remotely appetizing to me. It doesn’t even qualify in my mind as a whole food, which is the problem with so many of the vegan substitutes
> I’m curious how other vegetarians and vegans feel about eating lab-grown meat?
Focusing only on the opinions about other people: eventually, there is going to be less meat. They're going to get less of this physiologically delightful thing. It's inevitable.
For like 4-8% of the population, like me, they don't need the delight of meat. Fine. But that still leaves 92% who eat meat as long as it is possible to do so. It will be interesting to see how many people become vegan not because of any moral reason, but because it helps them e.g. cope with extraordinarily high prices.
> For like 4-8% of the population, like me, they don't need the delight of meat. Fine. But that still leaves 92% who eat meat as long as it is possible to do so.
Yeah I don't like the look of that ratio. I don't think you guys can reproduce fast enough to feed all of us!
>> It will be interesting to see how many people become vegan not because of any moral reason, but because it helps them e.g. cope with extraordinarily high prices.
My estimate is zero. Prices may reduce certain foods to occasional consumption. I can't speak for other non-vegans, but I'll eat vegan food at times if that's what I go for or if that's what's served by someone. But scarcity will not cause someone to declare themselves vegan IMHO.
Meat price ranges have a relatively hard cap. The rule of thumb for free ranging chickens is about 50 per acre, and they're really easy to train to return to a coop at night, and many breeds are ready to harvest in as little as 6 weeks. So prices can only get so high before somebody starts to see some opportunity there.
> Now I wonder if this is how everyone with a normal omnivore diet reacts to all those plant-based meats.
As an omnivore and lifelong enjoyer of meat, the modern meat alternatives like beyond or impossible are great. They don’t reheat well, but the macros are good and they’re super tasty when fresh.
The older stuff tho, yuck. Tastes funky and the macros are all wrong. Much prefer cottage cheese as a protein source, no fake meat required.
And that’s my main gripe with fake meats: there’s a whole world of amazing delicious vegetarian meals that don’t need meat fake or otherwise. I’d much rather have those than a fake steak.
I currently don't like the implementation as it relies on FBS, which relies on the unethical practices I became vegetarian (and am becoming vegan) to avoid. The core concept is fine though, and I'd eat it. I didn't make this choice because I hated the taste of meat.
Honestly though, I think vegan meat replacements are pretty much a solved problem already as far as I'm concerned. Between Beyond and Impossible and all the more traditionally made meat substitutes I haven't missed meat in ages.
What I'm really finding difficult to replace, now that I'm trending towards complete veganism, is cheese. Some substitutes work ok in some contexts, but the state of vegan pizza, for instance, is extremely sad.
I've written about this phenomenon specifically with regard to intuitions and vegetarianism. Our intuitions are from system 1 thinking, which includes (for you and me) "yuck, meat". But those intuitions are downstream from things we have worked out from deliberate system 2 thinking.
So when I went vegetarian, it was very much not from an intuitive repulsion from meat (I loved meat), but from deliberate reasoning (system 2). But now that time has passed, I do have the "yuck, meat" response. It's like when you learn 12 x 12 = 144 for the first time, it takes work and effort. But then it becomes intuitive because you're so used to it, and your brain wants to cache that work.
So I imagine that after you reason about it for long enough (system 2), eventually your intuitions will update (system 1).
I think you're spot on, my reaction toward meat is not an intuitive or instinctual human reaction given our evolution. It's something I've developed after becoming vegetarian. Speaking personally, long-running streaks are how I measure success, and my "days since I last ate meat" streak is my longest. This has caused me to develop a tiny paranoia of accidentally eating meat (e.g. ordering an impossible burger and the chef makes a real burger), which reinforces my "yuck, meat" intuition.
> I’m curious how other vegetarians and vegans feel about eating lab-grown meat? My gut reaction to this is “yuck, meat”.
Interesting. I am very much a meat eater, and my gut reaction to this is "yuck, fake meat".
I am totally fine with vegan burger patties and such because it's simply processed plant materials. It's not close enough to meat for its fakeness to bother me. This lab grown flesh strikes a very specific note of revulsion.
If our two reactions are common, it would seem they're in a worst-of-both-worlds situation.
Veggie and can't wait. I'm veggie because the meat industry is, on the whole, horrendous to the lives of animals, is an industry of trauma for the people who kill animals day in day out, and because its unsustainable for the planet. I'm not a veggie because I dont think meat tastes great; there's no substitute for he depth of flavour that meat gives.
Generalizing a bit and admitting that this would vary across cultures: most vegans (who turned vegan for ethical reasons and have been vegan for quite sometime) would promote this for people who want to transition as well as to occasionally have this with non-vegans to show them what’s available. Left to themselves, they’d likely abstain from it for the most part since there are still some ethical questions about it (if FBS — fetal bovine serum — is used) and since there are a wide variety of foods already available to them anyway. It could be a once-in-a-while indulgence though.
Ethically I'm all right. If someone put it in my quesadilla by accident I wouldn't throw a fit. But aesthetically I can barely eat an Impossible Whopper because it's too close to the real thing. After years of not eating it I just don't think meat is very good. I used to get food poisoning regularly but not any more.
> The company plans to make 50,000 pounds of meat per year there to start, eventually scaling up to more than 400,000 pounds per year.
Doesn't sound like they're planning on things being very popular. I buy >5 lb of chicken every month (family of 4). I imagine bigger families buy more. But let's assume I'm average -- so 50k lbs a year comes out to a little over 800 customers a year. So not a lot. Even their "big" production ends up small at ~6k a year.
the GTM for fake/cultured meats generally goes through restaurants first. its easy to train a few chefs to cook properly, partner with them to make meals that taste great. Much better solution than buying in a grocery and lettting anyone yolo.
I'll let the experimental subjects try this for a few decades and all of the resulting side effects be fixed before partaking, thank you very much lol.
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[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 120 ms ] threadI'd love to have cruelty free meat.
Energy? Any specific non-energy resources?
If 1 animal dies and all of humanity can stop eating meat, I'm happy to do that.
Heck I'd sacrifice myself for such a value.
But it sounds like this is a ~1 time prick of an animal, who could be sedated, and after that, you don't need the animal again.
I want to be vegan because of cruelty, but not eating meat because it came from a pricked animal 1 time in history sounds like a religion.
EDIT: Someone said this, which makes me think its not vegan at all, even with my definition. (Although this would probably put pro-choice vegans in a dilemma)
>for all mammalian eukaryotic cells ie cow , chicken ,human etc require growth media that contains FBS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_bovine_serum this extracted from the foetus of cattle, otherwise the cells cannot survive outside of the a live mammal. it is not vegan or vegetarian in the slightest
You still need resources to grow the meat, and many animals will be harmed and killed in the process of extracting those resources. Probably many more animals than would be harmed using traditional meat raising practices as when humans extract resources we like to strip things bare. Other animals tend to be a lot gentler on habitats.
Of course, if you are only concerned about cute, domesticated animals then you may find success here.
Sorry that I let out your little secret that animals are harmed in the process of resource extraction. I don't think it was ever much of a secret, though.
This is an absurd stretch of the definition of veganism. If this were accepted, you couldn't call anyone living in any basic form of civilization vegan. It stretches the idea to a point of being useless.
No homes allowed, since their material extraction and the construction process harms animals. No bicycles, those factories harmed animals in being constructed.
Even Jaina live in buildings.
I wonder what the popular opinion among vegans will be. I certainly don't think it's as clear cut. Or maybe the term veganism will fall out of favor in exchange for something like cruelty free.
In California, maybe?
Has a transition to fake meat worked anywhere, commercially?
Just to be clear 'beyond meat' is a bean that is fermented.
This is animal cells grown in a lab.
Ah, you're right, I was confused. Although, "real" might be questionable.
I'm not sure if I agree with that.
It's definitely not real chicken.
Are clones real animals?
Because instead of chickens eating waste products, we run electricity to build cells.
I imagine those waste products will be used by something else.
I think eventually they will create bio reactors that can process corn like a chicken can, but it will essentially just be a chicken without a brain. Meat is honestly disgusting when you think too much about it.
[1] Now I wonder if this is how everyone with a normal omnivore diet reacts to all those plant-based meats.
It’ll take a while to get over the internal resistance to the fact that it’s still basically ultra processed meat substitute. I’ve grown tissue culture in a lab and that does not sound even remotely appetizing to me. It doesn’t even qualify in my mind as a whole food, which is the problem with so many of the vegan substitutes
Focusing only on the opinions about other people: eventually, there is going to be less meat. They're going to get less of this physiologically delightful thing. It's inevitable.
For like 4-8% of the population, like me, they don't need the delight of meat. Fine. But that still leaves 92% who eat meat as long as it is possible to do so. It will be interesting to see how many people become vegan not because of any moral reason, but because it helps them e.g. cope with extraordinarily high prices.
Yeah I don't like the look of that ratio. I don't think you guys can reproduce fast enough to feed all of us!
My estimate is zero. Prices may reduce certain foods to occasional consumption. I can't speak for other non-vegans, but I'll eat vegan food at times if that's what I go for or if that's what's served by someone. But scarcity will not cause someone to declare themselves vegan IMHO.
As an omnivore and lifelong enjoyer of meat, the modern meat alternatives like beyond or impossible are great. They don’t reheat well, but the macros are good and they’re super tasty when fresh.
The older stuff tho, yuck. Tastes funky and the macros are all wrong. Much prefer cottage cheese as a protein source, no fake meat required.
And that’s my main gripe with fake meats: there’s a whole world of amazing delicious vegetarian meals that don’t need meat fake or otherwise. I’d much rather have those than a fake steak.
Honestly though, I think vegan meat replacements are pretty much a solved problem already as far as I'm concerned. Between Beyond and Impossible and all the more traditionally made meat substitutes I haven't missed meat in ages.
What I'm really finding difficult to replace, now that I'm trending towards complete veganism, is cheese. Some substitutes work ok in some contexts, but the state of vegan pizza, for instance, is extremely sad.
So when I went vegetarian, it was very much not from an intuitive repulsion from meat (I loved meat), but from deliberate reasoning (system 2). But now that time has passed, I do have the "yuck, meat" response. It's like when you learn 12 x 12 = 144 for the first time, it takes work and effort. But then it becomes intuitive because you're so used to it, and your brain wants to cache that work.
So I imagine that after you reason about it for long enough (system 2), eventually your intuitions will update (system 1).
Interesting. I am very much a meat eater, and my gut reaction to this is "yuck, fake meat".
I am totally fine with vegan burger patties and such because it's simply processed plant materials. It's not close enough to meat for its fakeness to bother me. This lab grown flesh strikes a very specific note of revulsion.
If our two reactions are common, it would seem they're in a worst-of-both-worlds situation.
They believe that food we consume comes first from air/water/sun. Veggies grow in the sun and consume air/water/earth.
She doesn't eat mushrooms or other nightshades because they don't grow in the sun.
It is less about 'meat' and something much simpler... anything that comes from secondary sources, like cows eating grass, shouldn't be eaten.
Since lab grown meat doesn't fall under the air/water/sun conditions, it is an easy no for her.
Doesn't sound like they're planning on things being very popular. I buy >5 lb of chicken every month (family of 4). I imagine bigger families buy more. But let's assume I'm average -- so 50k lbs a year comes out to a little over 800 customers a year. So not a lot. Even their "big" production ends up small at ~6k a year.
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/technical-documents/techn...