Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?
I've been a developer for entire 15 years career.
Used to enjoy but no more. Very difficult to tolerate the work. Every day is mental pain as I get older and younger folks are above me. It feels undignified, humiliating at times.
Stagnant in my current job for 6 years. No promotion opportunities. No motivation for the interview process.
Feels like i'm driving at 70km/hr towards a brick wall. Not close enough to panic. But no forks in the road also.
Can I leverage my experience (i think i have a lot..) to move into a management role when i don't have any job experience in that role?
Should I just lie on my resume?
Thanks
133 comments
[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 60.1 ms ] threadStarting your own side business to get the living expenses covered and then quitting and rolling a one man company.
Perhaps it's not being the manager that you want, but to control your own destiny? Being a manager will just lock you in even more.
Also no more need to drive 70km!
Your boss may not know you want it, or they know you want it and can provide insight on what you have to do to get there.
Or is it more that you don’t want to be a developer?
If your company has a need for squad/team leads, take one of those spots and try it out. You may very well find that you hate that more than whatever is bugging you now.
(I’m hoping to “retire” from management someday and go back to SWE3 type of coding. Grass is always greener and all that.)
My belief: If you’re burned out on engineering, switching to management probably won’t fix it.
I've had great managers and I've worked with great software developers and while it certainly helps to be a great developer to be a great manager, some of the worst managers I've had were also great developers. You may have a different skillset. And I don't know that avoiding humiliation is the best motivation to want to be a manager.
As it stands now, I'm a self-employed contractor and that brings some of the upsides of being a manager. I am running my own small business, after all. Maybe that's worth considering? It's not without downsides, though, especially in a soft job market.
I've also been a developer for 15 years (I'm 40 and graduated late at 25) and feel some of your angst, though I think the traditional approach is to take up woodworking or try to start a brewery :-)
If a manager is higher on the totem pole, isn’t that by definition “better”?
In other words, to me it feels like an IC can “fail down” but managers/directors/c-suites only seem to “fail up” - hence, better. I also think managers make way more than an IC, as they are a “level above” in the org structure.
I’m happy to change my bias, but I haven’t seen any evidence to the contrary.
Sounds like a 3 months sabbatical is due?
Cynically speaking: You need to chase the opportunity you want. Also if that requires you to leave your current place. Being motivated to do that is important.
I would probably take 3 months in your situation. Do things you like, exit your comfort zone in non-work related matters.
A friend of mine offered me an opportunity to lead a small team at a start-up, and I joined even though I made less money. I actually went back to being an IC after a few years because I didn't like managing at that company, but a few years after that, I had the chance to manage a team while the director was on paternity leave and I really enjoyed it. By that time, I'd read enough and had enough experience to get hired as a manager. So I changed jobs to manage a team full time and have enjoyed it since.
Good luck on your quest.
Basically make yourself and your interest visible.
But ask yourself if it's what you genuinely want, as well. The work and the responsibilities are very different to what you're doing as a developer. Maybe you haven't made the "jump" simply because you don't want to? I know there's a theoretical ladder of progression "up the chain" but I don't know if it's true; they're simply different roles suited to different personalities. It's quite common to hear of developers who went into management only to regret it. There are other options, like tech lead etc. that could give you a position of working more in the overview side of things and that could put your experience to good use, while still remaining faithful to the interests you had that brought you into this worldiin the first place.
But definitely if you feel like you're stuck in a rut with your current company then _communicate that_ to someone already in management where you're at and brainstorm some ideas. If your company is healthy then they'll appreciate that and appreciate you and help you find an avenue to explore.
If they aren't receptive to that, then you might start considering if the problem is with yourself and your age or whatever you're suggesting now, or with the environment you're working in.
Best of luck to you!
For anyone reading this, remember to understand the tightrope before walking it. Sharing your views is great, but only in the right context. Most people benefit from listening rather than talking early on.
I don't get the sense that you have any actual interest in studying or doing management.
Which would make for a terrible manager.
I'm a couple years away from 50, and "stuck as a developer" and it's fine, and having "young people above me" is no concern. They're team-mates and sometimes friends.
If I eventally make the switch to management, it would be because I got less interested sofware systems and more in team systems.
!(manager > engineer). Just different.
The first step I always think that is being honestly concerned and caring about people and making them the best that they can be without toxic behavior and then balance it with company expectations and project management skills.
Folks complain that this is too much to learn, but this is the reason why managers get paid more. Not the case in the real world, unfortunately
So if I can study my way into management, I’d love to know more about it. Simply getting a masters or an MBA shouldn’t cut it, because it’s just theory and not real experience, right?
I'm not sure becoming a manager would solve that, as there might still be younger people managing you. Even if you become CEO, shareholders and investors might be younger too. I think a better approach would be to discover first why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger.
The idea that when you grow up you go up in rank. And if you have younger people who are above you, and you have not moved up at all, then you feel like you’re not performing well.
I think this feeling is artificial and externally influenced. Some of us are made to do work. Others are made to oversee. They are both equal in rank. Just different set of skill.
I am management now, I only took this role because every time I trusted someone else to manage they let me down; but it really is just a different job, its not “superior” and using words like that to describe management is a huge part of the problem.
And then there is the other word: subordinate.
If all reports of a manager complain to the managers manager, that manager will likely be reassigned or reprimanded in a similar manner to a manager and an IC.
Also I should note that in most of Europe (at least the parts I've worked in), a managers voice is just a louder voice in a room of other managers- and firing someone is something that is not done by an individual, it's a discussion with managers and HR.
It's not taken lightly to fire people, even in places that are "at will" (theoretically) like Denmark.
> Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs in a company.
That particular job can fire you, in most cases. Our industry lives in a bubble compared to most other industries. Here a senior programmer can have as much power as the manager that is managing them. Especially in the case of staff/principal engineers.
What hierarchy? Are you talking about the org chart? I don't see that as a hierarchy in the sense I think it's being used here. It's just a description of who is managing who, not of "rank" in some sort of militaryesque sense. My manager is not my "superior". He's the person responsible for ensuring that everyone in his department is working in an aligned manner, and for ensuring that everyone has the fewest roadblocks possible.
> That particular job can fire you, in most cases.
Well, he can't, really. He can recommend that I be fired, and his recommendation carries a great deal of weight, but it's not his call. But ignoring that...
I don't see how that's very relevant. But perhaps I'm just being misled by the use of the term "rank". That implies a superiority of some sort to me, and that superiority doesn't exist. It's just a different job, is all.
It also implies that "manager" is a rung up on a ladder, and I don't think it is. It's a different job altogether, not an evolution of the job I have.
Well, I already confessed that I'm not sure what people mean by "rank" here. I know it's not related to self-worth (not sure why you think I did relate it to that). But if it's not related to the org chart, then I don't have a clue what people mean by it.
What does the rank/hierarchy mean to you in this context?
I think we're talking past each other.
I only once had a younger supervisor, and I preferred that much more than an old boss.
Is it just me? I have also had a friend tell me the same.
Age is not a rank. If people younger than you are better at delivering value than you then they should be above you, and rightfully so.
Moreso if they outwork you.
You should get with the program and work on being at peace that other people around you can and often are better than you at something.
If you're hoping to become a manager so that you can abuse your position to keep others down, you definitely are not cut out to be a manager.
I've promoted quite a few people into Team Lead and Manager roles and it was ALWAYS the person that was currently already leading, mentoring and making my problems go away.
Same with how do you get to be "Senior Engineer" or "Architect" ... do the job first.
It sounds like you just want a change of scenery and the prestige the title gives you, I don't even know if that will make you happy.
You say that there are no promotion opportunities, but have you talked to your EM about the gaps to the next IC level for you?
Couldn't agree more.
I think there's this perception from legacy engineering companies that a career track is a single line transitioning from IC to management, with some overlap defined by either pay grade or prestige (or both) between the seniors from IC and the juniors from management. This might be the source of OP's feelings of frustration.
I just crested the 10-year mark on my career and one of the things I try to sniff out in interviews is whether there's a genuinely workable long-term IC track which doesn't just fold into management, cause seniority in management in my experience is directly proportional to the number of hours you spend in meetings every week, and that's reaaally not for me.
@OP: perhaps you could go into more detail about why you feel unhappy being an IC to younger managers? I get that there's the accountability structure aspect of it, but it sounds like you're frustrated because they're younger despite them being in an orthogonal career track. Are the managers you dislike incompetent?
Obviously managers have more direct reports, the definition of an IC is that they have zero direct reports, besides maybe a temporary intern.
At any competent tech company, moving to management results in no immediate change to compensation. It is a transition, not a promotion.
(As a CTO coach, I'd say book a coach but ...)
Tell your boss. If they don't know there is no chance to be promoted. Ask what it takes to be promoted.
Know the boss of your boss. Only they can promote you to the same level as your boss. Your boss usually can't (Most important promotion tip).
Try to get some management into your job title for no salary increase. This makes it easier to switch jobs and be hired into a management role.
Try to become co-founder (CTO) in a small startup.
Found a startup on your own, easiest way to get the CTO title. Build for one year, close the startup if it doesn't work.
This is transitory. I get it, but it only stings now because you're not that old yet, so you feel you should be in that fight. A few years more and it's typical for the manager to be younger, nobody has the population pyramid for seniority promotions anymore.
It helps to get somewhat out of the ladder and go freelance or similar. It ends up being very very similar, but in your head you're on a different track.
Solve the "no motivation for the interview process" problem, and you may find that a change in scenery can fix the rest of the problems you are experiencing.
There's a short book I like called The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday that talks about dealing with adversity like this.
The secret is to take full responsibility for your situation. Nobody will be more invested in your success than you are.
Ask yourself - why do you feel stagnant, and what can you do about it?
For example, talking to your manager about it, making a plan and working toward a promotion as an IC, taking over a struggling project and leading it to success, or transitioning into leading a team.
If it's changing jobs, take responsibility for understanding your goals and finding a role that fits.
And don't lie, that stuff catches up to you.
You might want to move into a more mentorship role where younger developers have to look up to you.
Being a project manager is more about handling politics and trying to carve out a viable way forward.
Learning the skills is a beginning. Take notes during meetings, share them with the group. Engage your manager in planning, through questions or adding information. Give considerate feedback.
When you do find something like that life is joy and you can also become incredibly successful. Maybe management is that thing, but validate that you are really motivated for it and excited for all the hard work it will undoubtedly create for you. Or maybe it's something different.
If you're not sure, try many things, or ask yourself what would that thing be if it wasn't "work".