In my experience over the last fours years, 1 and three are a thing of the past. I'd even say that the second is less of a problem as they added many service centers closeby. But I am not in the US. The two last ones are an increasing annoyance.
Tesla is highly overrated, in my opinion. While they should be commended for being a pioneer, other brands have already eclipsed them.
Personally, I vastly prefer the VW ID.3 (and the slightly larger ID.4). It doesn't have the sleek looks, of course, but in terms of feel, comfort, features, and so on, it's a much nicer car. It's probably a better car than a Tesla for most people.
The U.S. market is struggling to offer enough lower-budget electric cars. Not every car needs to be a sleek $80k Tesla. In Europe, electric cars have now become normalized thanks to models covering the entire range of affordability. Plenty of "normal working people budget" cars — Renault Zoe, Opel Corsa-e, Skoda Enyaq, and so on, all great cars. The U.S. has the Bolt, Leaf, Niro, and then the cars quickly become expensive after that. (The Niro is a terrific car, though!)
Tesla would agree with you, that's why the Model 3 starts at 40k and in the US is eligible for a $7500 credit. Bonus points if you're in a state like California where you can get additional credits.
Very Bad headline, given this is the second paragraph:
> The latest reports from Cox Automotive indicate that car buyers are much more interested in EVs now than in the past: 51 percent of buyers who participated in a recent Cox survey are considering buying a new or used EV, which is up from 38 percent in 2021. And Cox says that EV sales will break the 1 million mark for the first time in 2023, with sales reportedly accounting for about 6.5 percent of the entire auto market in the U.S. so far.
Eh, it's Jalopnik, they do a lot of misleading headlines.
And at least with the Mach E; anecdotally they're kind of correct in that there's a bunch of Mach E's sitting on the lot. Thing that they're either fully optioned Premium variants or GT variants, so you're talking $82,000 to $90,000 Canadian dollars even before you starting thinking about taxes and other costs.
The $55,000 to $70,000 price ranged EV's seem to be selling well enough for the time being.
I follow a radio program about cars.
It's funny how the presenters until a few years ago called themselves "petrol heads" and hated EV like everyone did back then.
Now that there's an end date for ICE and more and more investment is redirected to EV they have changed their tune.
You do not bite the hand that feeds.
The anecdote about the mach-e makes sense given that the current wave of EV buyer (especially those not looking for a status nameplate) is still going to be, I assume, largely dominated by people whose motivation to consider electric is chiefly practicality, where the trade-off between the downsides of an ice vehile and the downsides of an EV favors the EV over the next 5 or 10 year horizon.
They are not the sort of people who are attracted to ev's because they have a bunch of fruity pebble novelties, and scoff at the idea of paying an extra $4000 for 1 inch bigger wheel rims and 4 extra tinny speakers mounted in the kick panels. those buyers are still firmly the customer group that car salesmen derisively call the "grapes" because they're easily squeezed for maximum commission and profit, that are not going to appreciate the advantages (or deal with the changes of habit) that come with an EV so for the extra money they'd rather buy a bunch of luxury trim on a traditional ICE package.
The Ford and other EVs listed cost around the same as similar Teslas. The Teslas use the Supercharger system, which is far and away the best charging system in the U.S. right now. Moreover, Ford and GM are moving to Tesla plugs in a year or two, meaning the Tesla ("NACS") system is going to wind up being the standard.
So why would someone pay around the same amount for a Ford electric Mustang or whatever with a legacy CCS charging system as they would for a Model Y, when the Model Y has the right charging standard, and, in addition, one doesn't even have to deal with a hostile car dealer?
Can anyone—anyone—solve this perplexing set of facts?
I'm sure there are some people who want an electric car but don't like Tesla, but for most people the Supercharger network and future-proofing are huge advantages.
Sure. Adapters exist and, as much as they're annoying, they're not deal breakers. And a lot of people trust Ford to get the fit-and-finish right. Also, the EVs coming from "legacy" automakers all pretty much look better than the bland eggs Tesla makes. (IMO the Model S is the only decent looking Tesla. All the other ones are about as exciting than low-fat mayonnaise)
As far as car dealers go, they vary. And again, it's a one time hassle that many would put up with to get the car they want.
They should have skipped the first point and gone straight to the second. Few things are as useless as surveys that show consumers "considering" something! Consideration is cheap; a $64k[0] purchase is meaningful.
Yet there are likely many people in your area with garages where they can charge. Unless you live in a very remote area, there are likley more fast charging stations that you may have noticed and the plan is to double those by 2025.
I want electric, but I still have reservations. Range is a big one, and many times I mention it, people will say 'oh just wait for x, then batteries will last y.' Meaning it's probably evolving quickly.
That in turn makes me want to wait, why would I spend more money than ICE on something that will be outdated soon?
Which brings me to the second point: costs are still pretty heavy on most of these.
Not the GP, but many people prefer to make long trips in cars that they're used to and personalized to their liking. I've certainly been in rental cars whose seats have contorted my body uncomfortably, if nothing else only because I wasn't used to it.
Because most rental cars suck, and if you want an actual good one for a week or more they charge a fortune. And sometimes when you show up at the rental car agency the specific model you reserved isn't even available.
No, that's not what I'm comparing. First, my ICE cars are hardly "sucky". They work great and get me, my family, and all of our stuff where we need to go safely, reliably, and affordably. Second, we're talking about road trips here so generally at least 4 days at a time. Any many of us do several such trips per year. Talk to any parent who has children involved in travel club sports.
The key is to not over-value this. If your daily driver is also good at a rare cross country trip then that's great, but how bad is it really if it's not and you need to rent a vehicle with different capabilities once a year?
If you're comparing two vehicles and one of them is a better fit for your daily driving and regular recurring needs while not being the best for rare uses, while the other is better at the rare use cases while being worse every other day, it seems like an easy choice to me but a lot of people will entirely count out the first one because it doesn't do the rare things well.
See also: The person who buys a pickup truck as a daily driver they use to commute from the suburbs to an office because they might buy a few 2x4s from time to time.
Charge times are a factor for me. I may drive less than 50 miles a day (within range that even a plug in hybrid could have enough range) but since I live in an apartment, I can only trickle charge from the 120v outlet in my unit’s garage. I cannot install a new higher voltage outlet and doubt my landlord would front that cost.
Being able to confidently drive a few days without charging and not be constrained by my local limited fast charging infrastructure to be able to make longer trips on the weekends out of town is probably the biggest reason I have “range anxiety”. There are 4 charger stations in my rural town. I would have to drive at least 30 miles to find another 4. That and still having a few years paying off my current vehicle left are holding off my EV purchase for a while.
We've been 120V charging while waiting for our 208V installation.. and it's fine? You end up charging all the time (1000W) so we just leave the car plugged in.
Depending on the efficiency of the car, you can probably charge 50 miles in about 10 hours on a 120v, 12amp charger. Most cars spend about that long parked overnight, every night of the week. That’s not trickle charging, btw, that’s 1.4kW of power. And if you have an electric clothes dryer then you probably have a 30amp circuit to plug into if you wanted. That’s easily 4× as much power.
But it’s unlikely to be a good idea to replace your car while you still have a mortgage on an existing one. That’s just common sense.
Range anxiety is a thing you imagine you’ll have until you get an EV with access to a good charging network. I just did a 500 mile (each way) trip with little notice and the charging stops were seamless and short. I spent more time waiting for a crummy rest-station Pizza Hut Express than the charging session required.
> I just did a 500 mile (each way) trip with little notice and the charging stops were seamless and short.
Does the same apply during peak travel periods like Thanksgiving and Christmas, where a lot of people may be competing for spots? Even gas stations get backed up sometimes, and that's for the most part a 5-minute deal, with the option to drive on to the one that's a quarter mile away or on the other side of the highway.
Even if the "200 miles of range in 15 minutes" (no doubt under ideal conditions) holds true for a Model 3 at a Supercharger, that's 3x the time with fewer options than gas.
I’ve never taken a trip under those conditions, but my Navigation has rerouted me to a less-busy charger, which is something that gas stations generally don’t have the ability to do.
Gasoline remains relatively inexpensive. These vehicles are relatively more expensive. Furthermore, lease cycle aside, a car is something you replace, as necessary. Few are going to wake up and think, "I need a car payment. And I want it to be more than the one I recently paid-off." Finally, in terms of planning and production, it makes sense the supply of EVs is greater than that of gasoline-fueled. That is, as brands prepare for EV sales, they likely cut back on making traditional vehicles, which lowered that supply. That is, it's not simply sales per se.
Yeah, until this gets fixed, I'm not buying an EV. I ran the numbers and after 10 years of ownership and almost 200k miles, the cost of a brand-new ICE car + 10 years of gasoline + maintenance is still less than the cost of a Model 3.
To be fair there are cheaper EVs than Teslas, but then you start looking at losing out seriously on things like range...and they're still more expensive than just buying another ICE car, just not as much more expensive.
Plus, like many people, I live in a rural area and don't have a garage. Not sure what I'd do about home charging, and I don't want to think about it, to be honest. Going to be some $$$ involved, no doubt.
There are also ICE cars more expensive than your unnamed brand-new ICE car. It's fair to say EVs aren't for everyone, but the average price of a new car is around where you can get a Model 3 or Y.
> Yeah, until this gets fixed, I'm not buying an EV. I ran the numbers and after 10 years of ownership and almost 200k miles, the cost of a brand-new ICE car + 10 years of gasoline + maintenance is still less than the cost of a Model 3.
My math is even worse, in 5 years I have driven maybe 30k, but I am also constantly annoyed that my 1.6L subcompact gas car gets less than 20 MPG driving up and down Seattle's hills at 20 MPH.
A city electric car would be nice, but our road infrastructure just isn't built for them.
Fiat 500e's can be had for just a few grand in Seattle, ditto for older Nissan Leafs.
There are a few Seattle Fiat 500e owners who are doing 20k to 30k miles a year, which makes for a very low cost per mile compared to a gas subcompact car
I drove a regular Fiat 500 once. Terrible car, only time I've felt scared driving, and not due to the size of the car, but rather just the horrible build quality. It felt on par with the Geo Metro I learned to drive in.
I currently own 2 sub compacts, both of which are just barely big enough to fit a stroller + 1 bag of groceries, which feels about as small as I'd want to go for a city car, although part of me wonders how much of that is due to the size of the strollers sold in America!
I feel my car is both way too big and also too small at times. TBF a large % of my commute is taking the entire family around, or going to fetch large batches of things from stores, so I don't feel too bad, other than the entire using gas and getting 20MPG part aspect of it all.
Just curious, which ICE car? Unless you're looking at some of the cheapest cars available and also ineligible for the tax credit, I'm surprised the M3 wasn't competitive.
Yes, but that's only your country. Where I live it becomes free ~200kkm (assuming no road user taxes and no maintenance). Almost twice as quick if I assume my past gas guzzler MPG.
Speaking an absolutes, yes I could've sold my gas guzzler and got small hybrid that would cost 1/3rd to run. But ICE cars suck and I like bigger cars as they are convenient with kids.
Current EVs are really expensive and pretty much a luxury product. There's reasonable fear about finding charging stations if you don't have a Tesla. The plug seems to be converging to Tesla now. Needs one more iteration in battery tech so we can reach 450 miles EPA and under 40K USD.
It's not that you're going to drive 450 miles but there needs to be enough cushion left for degradation, optimal charge cycles, winter, etc. so you can atleast go 300 miles without any issues for the entire life of the vehicle.
Long term, EVs are definitely superior and simpler tech in terms of maintenance, but the current gen isn't fully there yet.
Tesla is ahead right now in terms of product maturity and seems to have enough margins to be able to discount. I'm really excited to see what they offer with their next platform.
> so you can atleast go 300 miles without any issues for the entire life of the vehicle.
I see this line brought up in every single conversation. But I always wonder how many people have sat down and analyzed how often they actually drive XYZ miles in one go. I'm not saying that *no one* has this problem, but I would bet good money that the majority of folks who believe they do don't encounter this very often.
For instance with myself I know that I would need to rent a car once every year or two given current battery ranges. But that's pretty much it.
I just drove NYC to CLT in a day. I encountered rest stops with Tesla chargers but not anything else. Great if you have a Tesla but would really suck otherwise.
If you have a family, flying gets expensive real quick so you have to be able to drive 8-10 hours for vacation if needed maybe twice a year.
Obviously none of this applies if you have a second gas car.
What I was wondering out loud was how many people actually look at the number of overly long journeys they make and compare it to their perception of the number of overly long journeys they make.
> But I always wonder how many people have sat down and analyzed how often they actually drive XYZ miles in one go.
You actually landed on precisely the qualitative difference: with gas cars, nobody has to sit down and analyze it due to the state of existing gas infrastructure, but with EVs they are faced with that analysis. It's a layer of complexity on top of what is already a process that people don't enjoy (buying a car).
> For instance with myself I know that I would need to rent a car once every year or two given current battery ranges.
I know you have an implicit YMMV there, but it's worth stating explicitly. I live in a place that's sufficiently rural and lower-income that people choose to make a 1000-mile round trip instead of flying; and when people routinely make such long road trips, they much prefer to do so in their own car that they've personalized to make it comfortable, instead of being at the mercy of whatever the rental car company has.
It's a good point, and fair. Or for instance I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds the whole soup of connectors, brands of chargers, etc to be confusing.
And yeah. In contrast I went about 15 years without a car at all. And in the several years I've owned this car there was only a 1 year period where it was *necessary* (my partner had a commute where they had to drive). So for me any existing battery is more than enough for 99% of my life.
I do a lot of 600-1000 trips. I definitely prefer to rent. Driving long distances messes up your car, especially the interior. But, usually I’m going some place for many weeks and renting is too expensive.
I want a Prius Prime. With a 44-mile range on battery, the vast majority of my driving would be electric, plus there's zero range anxiety. BUT, I hate hate hate having to go to car dealerships and deal with their obnoxious shenanigans. Wish I could just buy it online for a fair price.
You can find barely-used Prius Primes on no-haggle used car dealers like Carmax or Carvana. But I guess that depends on your definition of a "fair price" -- no-haggle means you also never get a good deal, merely an OK deal at best.
I just searched Carmax and Carvana for 2023 Prius Primes and zero showed up on either of them. EPA range on battery between the last model and the current one increased from 25 to 44 miles, so a substantial difference. Also, I don't think there's really much of a discount compared to new for many vehicles right now.
44 miles EV range probably means they want the new 2023 Prius Prime, which is not readily available used. Previous generation only had 25 mile EV range.
> Negotiating with car dealers is not difficult if you can simply act like an an adult and stand up for yourself just a little bit.
Would it really be that hard to just give some advice without being condescending and insulting about it? Do you stop to think what kind of vibe you are putting into this community?
I'm sorry you feel that way. The advice about emailing the dealers is just the "give the man a fish" half. Deciding to change one's mindset from "I'm afraid to talk to a big bad car dealer" to "I'm an adult and am fully capable of conducting this negotiation" is the more important, "learn to fish" half that will benefit someone who takes that advice (it's not really advice, I'm hardly the first person to dispense it) throughout their professional and personal lives.
It's not someone feeling a certain way. You are behaving in the manner described. It isn't a fear of negotiating. It's the desire to not have to do so. I don't want to deal with the shenanigans. I have money, they have what I wish to buy: why should I buy from them when they turn it into a game. It could be simple but it is not.
OK then, simply walk into a dealership and announce, "I wish to purchase this car (point to it) at full MSRP, exactly what is on the sticker, no discount -- it is my desire not to negotiate." Except for rare cases of oversubscribed cars that are waitlist-only, just about any car dealer will be happy to serve you.
> It could be simple but it is not.
No not really, buying a car is rather complex because it is, by definition, a complex transaction. Are you paying cash upfront with no financing? If so, you're in the minority. Even coming to the dealership with financing already arranged through a third party (bank, credit union) is relatively rare. What level of protection do you want? Some people are OK with the factory warranty and nothing else, other people want more peace of mind and are willing to pay for it. The car will require servicing -- oil changes, tune-ups, belt replacements, etc -- again, some people are fine paying per appointment, others want to just pay one price and have no further financial obligation. When the car is in the shop, will you need a loaner car, a ride home? Will you require next-day appointments? Some people want those things to be guaranteed, others don't want them at all, unless they are free. (and we haven't even discussed leasing)
Buying a mobile phone in 2023 is not simple or straightforward, even when you know the exact model you want. How much storage? Do you want a protection plan? Screen protection only, extended warranty, spills and drops also? How about a case? Don't forget a screen protector! And that's if you're purchasing a phone straight up. Phone + plan is crazy complicated -- do you want auto-upgrade after 2 years? 3 years? Pay for the phone upfront or monthly? One line or family? Hotspot allowed? All of this for a $1000 purchase. Now extrapolate to a $40,000 purchase expected to last 5-7 years, a product that requires the owner to keep up with maintenance schedules, that accumulates all kinds of dirt, rocks, gunk, inside and out... you get the idea.
With hybrids like this, my understanding is that the EV range cannot be directly translated into electric-only driving range, because above a certain speed the car does switch back to the the ICE, regardless. It is only in the lowest speeds when it does the EV-only mode operate.
In the new hybrids they can be used in EV mode. At least for Toyota and Honda.
> In EV Drive, the Accord Hybrid is propelled solely by its electric motor and the lithium-ion battery pack.
This mode can be selected—and used for short distances—by pressing the EV button.
The headline is obviously nonsense. There are clearly lots of people in the US who want to buy EVs, as the article even indicates.
I am one of the few who doesn't want an EV, though. Not because of being an EV specifically, but because there seems to be no EVs on the market that don't phone home.
Well, we just bought a 100% EV, and it wasn't even a Tesla. And we are Americans.
In my neighborhood, I'd say we see about 20% EVs.
I'm sure it's above the national average- it seems like all I see on highways are conventional crossovers, trucks, bigger trucks, "SUVs" that are so big they're basically small RVs. A smattering of these cars- and a few sedans- are hybrid. Very few EVs, except for, of course, Teslas- which are pretty hot in our area. It might be the fastest growing brand of vehicle in these parts.
I can tell you what made us hesitate: lack of a usable charging station infrastructure. We will basically use our EV for in-town and nearby area use. No serious highway trips.
Battery replacement cost is real concern. Quick charging would make longer trips feasible- if we could find more charging stations on major highways, a charge of half an hour or so is not bad- but frequent quick charging will prematurely wear out our battery which currently would cost $6000 to replace. So we won't be quick charging it. That leaves trickle charging so every 70 mi or so we'd have to stay at a hotel while the car charged fully.
The final concern for us was EVs are still dirtier to produce than combustion machines. We hope this balance will change as adoption increases, but it's a little discouraging that the owner of the fastest growing EV brand is a right-of-center ideologue which makes me doubt he'll be converting his plants to solar and wind energy anytime soon.
You're valuing the very wrong thing if you think it makes economic sense to pay for a hotel and trick charge to attempt to save you BEVs battery. The cost of the hotel and your time will easily, easily, easily, exceed the marginal cost/damage to the battery by rapid charging them.
Also, take a look at any of the economic impact of production. Gas vehicles are worse from an environmental perspective after only a few years. If you destroy an EV as soon as its made then sure, it'll be worse, but otherwise it's a win.
I went to the big local auto show in the spring and sat in a ton of cars, including a bunch of the new EVs. They all have Tesla envy. Giant touchscreens. No buttons. Interior and exterior design that's there to shout at you that you drive an EV rather than be useful.
Many are just not competitive in the market as well. They tend to be priced higher than Tesla with less range and performance. No one's going to outsell Tesla on EVs until they bring prices down and capabilities up. I feel like many manufacturers are still just producing a token handful of EVs for tax purposes or to prove out their logistics. No one has given it a serious push yet.
As someone who has recently went through an EV shopping and purchase exercise, the dealership model has SO MUCH room for improvement.
Every dealer was immediately talking to me about financing options and specials before I even sat in any single car, let alone test drove one.
Of the 5 makes I test drove:
only 1 was willing to have the car configured with an actual single-pedal-driving experience (Volvo). Most were worried that my unfamiliarity with single-pedal-driving would lead to a bad test drive experience.
only 1 was willing to talk to me in clear terms about how route planning and mapping would work with the charging network. 2 different dealers told me I would have to download "an app off the appstore" for route planning & charging.
every dealer had some sort of dealership mark-up on the EV. Usually in the range of $1K - $3K. The Audi dealer was kind enough not to lie to us about the purpose, it was a dealership markup that he thought would be negotiable if it meant losing the sale.
Our Tesla test-drive experience - we showed up for our appointment, got some brief instructions / Q&A, and were handed a set of keys to tool around with for an hour. Another Q&A after, and no pressure to do anything else. We left without any purchase commitment, and made that separately online on our own time after more deliberation about the decision.
My partner and I went into this process sure we would pick a non-Tesla, it was the last car type we test drove after weeks of trying others. Every dealership turned us off in some way. That combined with the raw numbers (price of car, range, cargo space, towing capacity) it's no contest that Tesla has both the best EV and the best buying experience for an EV.
The (US) government strives to keep the price of gasoline artificially low (as compared to other comparable countries), and then at the same time offers tax incentives to encourage the adoption of EVs.
Certainly, there's got to be a relationship between the price at the pump and how attractive EV become to car buyers. Instead, we get a solution(s) that's good for politicians but not so good for citizens?
Weird, it's like no one wants to pre-order a massive depreciating asset for a 20% inflated price at 10% interest and then, when it finally shows up on the dealer 4 months later, get scammed for an additional $5-10k to pay for REQUIRED ceramic coatings and other stuff you never asked for. Then, when you refuse they take the pre-ordered car and sell it to a used car dealer that will then sell it for 30% above MSRP.
For some reason, dealers and automakers are making the purchasing process for electric cars 10x harder than it needs to be.
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[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 155 ms ] threadAdditionally, the ford lightning can be used as a home battery which afaik isn’t on the Tesla roadmap.
However, I believe the company will reduce slack in the system in unhealthy ways as fits their corporate goals. More than other mfg.
In this case, moving slowly is an advantage. I just trust Ford to be able to support 100 millions cars on the road more than Tesla.
But thanks for checking my priors - I was still assuming it was 3+ month delivery time for eg bodywork.
The home battery, however, is really important to me. Buy a ford lightning and you get something like 8 powerwalls, with a truck for free.
Personally, I vastly prefer the VW ID.3 (and the slightly larger ID.4). It doesn't have the sleek looks, of course, but in terms of feel, comfort, features, and so on, it's a much nicer car. It's probably a better car than a Tesla for most people.
The U.S. market is struggling to offer enough lower-budget electric cars. Not every car needs to be a sleek $80k Tesla. In Europe, electric cars have now become normalized thanks to models covering the entire range of affordability. Plenty of "normal working people budget" cars — Renault Zoe, Opel Corsa-e, Skoda Enyaq, and so on, all great cars. The U.S. has the Bolt, Leaf, Niro, and then the cars quickly become expensive after that. (The Niro is a terrific car, though!)
Tesla would agree with you, that's why the Model 3 starts at 40k and in the US is eligible for a $7500 credit. Bonus points if you're in a state like California where you can get additional credits.
> The latest reports from Cox Automotive indicate that car buyers are much more interested in EVs now than in the past: 51 percent of buyers who participated in a recent Cox survey are considering buying a new or used EV, which is up from 38 percent in 2021. And Cox says that EV sales will break the 1 million mark for the first time in 2023, with sales reportedly accounting for about 6.5 percent of the entire auto market in the U.S. so far.
And at least with the Mach E; anecdotally they're kind of correct in that there's a bunch of Mach E's sitting on the lot. Thing that they're either fully optioned Premium variants or GT variants, so you're talking $82,000 to $90,000 Canadian dollars even before you starting thinking about taxes and other costs.
The $55,000 to $70,000 price ranged EV's seem to be selling well enough for the time being.
EVs are just barely mature enough to have mass appeal, and the worst models don’t have almost any appeal if you ask me.
If you have $80-90k you should be buying a BMW iX, not a Ford Mach-E or a Genesis G80.
The BZ4X is also not competitive especially without available tax credits. You can snag yourself a Model Y long range for less money.
Audi e-tron models have weak range BMW or Mercedes EQ* instead.
Volvo C40 should be avoided until the new rear wheel drive revision comes out.
The Hummer EV is a completely insane show car and limited run tech demo.
The list of “obsolete” EVs goes on and on.
Now that there's an end date for ICE and more and more investment is redirected to EV they have changed their tune. You do not bite the hand that feeds.
They are not the sort of people who are attracted to ev's because they have a bunch of fruity pebble novelties, and scoff at the idea of paying an extra $4000 for 1 inch bigger wheel rims and 4 extra tinny speakers mounted in the kick panels. those buyers are still firmly the customer group that car salesmen derisively call the "grapes" because they're easily squeezed for maximum commission and profit, that are not going to appreciate the advantages (or deal with the changes of habit) that come with an EV so for the extra money they'd rather buy a bunch of luxury trim on a traditional ICE package.
So why would someone pay around the same amount for a Ford electric Mustang or whatever with a legacy CCS charging system as they would for a Model Y, when the Model Y has the right charging standard, and, in addition, one doesn't even have to deal with a hostile car dealer?
Can anyone—anyone—solve this perplexing set of facts?
I'm sure there are some people who want an electric car but don't like Tesla, but for most people the Supercharger network and future-proofing are huge advantages.
As far as car dealers go, they vary. And again, it's a one time hassle that many would put up with to get the car they want.
Of the various EVs I've actually driven, I've found Teslas to be the least satisfying and enjoyable. So I wouldn't buy a Tesla for that reason alone.
[0]: https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/electric-car-prices/
That in turn makes me want to wait, why would I spend more money than ICE on something that will be outdated soon?
Which brings me to the second point: costs are still pretty heavy on most of these.
The key is to not over-value this. If your daily driver is also good at a rare cross country trip then that's great, but how bad is it really if it's not and you need to rent a vehicle with different capabilities once a year?
If you're comparing two vehicles and one of them is a better fit for your daily driving and regular recurring needs while not being the best for rare uses, while the other is better at the rare use cases while being worse every other day, it seems like an easy choice to me but a lot of people will entirely count out the first one because it doesn't do the rare things well.
See also: The person who buys a pickup truck as a daily driver they use to commute from the suburbs to an office because they might buy a few 2x4s from time to time.
Being able to confidently drive a few days without charging and not be constrained by my local limited fast charging infrastructure to be able to make longer trips on the weekends out of town is probably the biggest reason I have “range anxiety”. There are 4 charger stations in my rural town. I would have to drive at least 30 miles to find another 4. That and still having a few years paying off my current vehicle left are holding off my EV purchase for a while.
But it’s unlikely to be a good idea to replace your car while you still have a mortgage on an existing one. That’s just common sense.
Does the same apply during peak travel periods like Thanksgiving and Christmas, where a lot of people may be competing for spots? Even gas stations get backed up sometimes, and that's for the most part a 5-minute deal, with the option to drive on to the one that's a quarter mile away or on the other side of the highway.
Even if the "200 miles of range in 15 minutes" (no doubt under ideal conditions) holds true for a Model 3 at a Supercharger, that's 3x the time with fewer options than gas.
Yeah, until this gets fixed, I'm not buying an EV. I ran the numbers and after 10 years of ownership and almost 200k miles, the cost of a brand-new ICE car + 10 years of gasoline + maintenance is still less than the cost of a Model 3.
To be fair there are cheaper EVs than Teslas, but then you start looking at losing out seriously on things like range...and they're still more expensive than just buying another ICE car, just not as much more expensive.
Plus, like many people, I live in a rural area and don't have a garage. Not sure what I'd do about home charging, and I don't want to think about it, to be honest. Going to be some $$$ involved, no doubt.
There are also ICE cars more expensive than your unnamed brand-new ICE car. It's fair to say EVs aren't for everyone, but the average price of a new car is around where you can get a Model 3 or Y.
My math is even worse, in 5 years I have driven maybe 30k, but I am also constantly annoyed that my 1.6L subcompact gas car gets less than 20 MPG driving up and down Seattle's hills at 20 MPH.
A city electric car would be nice, but our road infrastructure just isn't built for them.
There are a few Seattle Fiat 500e owners who are doing 20k to 30k miles a year, which makes for a very low cost per mile compared to a gas subcompact car
I currently own 2 sub compacts, both of which are just barely big enough to fit a stroller + 1 bag of groceries, which feels about as small as I'd want to go for a city car, although part of me wonders how much of that is due to the size of the strollers sold in America!
I feel my car is both way too big and also too small at times. TBF a large % of my commute is taking the entire family around, or going to fetch large batches of things from stores, so I don't feel too bad, other than the entire using gas and getting 20MPG part aspect of it all.
Yes, but that's only your country. Where I live it becomes free ~200kkm (assuming no road user taxes and no maintenance). Almost twice as quick if I assume my past gas guzzler MPG.
Assuming 7L efficiency of new car every 100kkm would save me $15,400 NZD in fuel.
My previous one used 12L, so EV saves me 27.9K per 100kkm.
(7L/100km2.5$/L=17.5 - 15kwh/100km0.14$/kwh=$2.1/100km = 15.4)
Speaking an absolutes, yes I could've sold my gas guzzler and got small hybrid that would cost 1/3rd to run. But ICE cars suck and I like bigger cars as they are convenient with kids.
The issue is I don't foresee needing a new car for at least a few years. Probably more.
It's not that you're going to drive 450 miles but there needs to be enough cushion left for degradation, optimal charge cycles, winter, etc. so you can atleast go 300 miles without any issues for the entire life of the vehicle.
Long term, EVs are definitely superior and simpler tech in terms of maintenance, but the current gen isn't fully there yet.
Tesla is ahead right now in terms of product maturity and seems to have enough margins to be able to discount. I'm really excited to see what they offer with their next platform.
I see this line brought up in every single conversation. But I always wonder how many people have sat down and analyzed how often they actually drive XYZ miles in one go. I'm not saying that *no one* has this problem, but I would bet good money that the majority of folks who believe they do don't encounter this very often.
For instance with myself I know that I would need to rent a car once every year or two given current battery ranges. But that's pretty much it.
If you have a family, flying gets expensive real quick so you have to be able to drive 8-10 hours for vacation if needed maybe twice a year.
Obviously none of this applies if you have a second gas car.
What I was wondering out loud was how many people actually look at the number of overly long journeys they make and compare it to their perception of the number of overly long journeys they make.
You actually landed on precisely the qualitative difference: with gas cars, nobody has to sit down and analyze it due to the state of existing gas infrastructure, but with EVs they are faced with that analysis. It's a layer of complexity on top of what is already a process that people don't enjoy (buying a car).
> For instance with myself I know that I would need to rent a car once every year or two given current battery ranges.
I know you have an implicit YMMV there, but it's worth stating explicitly. I live in a place that's sufficiently rural and lower-income that people choose to make a 1000-mile round trip instead of flying; and when people routinely make such long road trips, they much prefer to do so in their own car that they've personalized to make it comfortable, instead of being at the mercy of whatever the rental car company has.
It's a good point, and fair. Or for instance I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds the whole soup of connectors, brands of chargers, etc to be confusing.
And yeah. In contrast I went about 15 years without a car at all. And in the several years I've owned this car there was only a 1 year period where it was *necessary* (my partner had a commute where they had to drive). So for me any existing battery is more than enough for 99% of my life.
Would it really be that hard to just give some advice without being condescending and insulting about it? Do you stop to think what kind of vibe you are putting into this community?
OK then, simply walk into a dealership and announce, "I wish to purchase this car (point to it) at full MSRP, exactly what is on the sticker, no discount -- it is my desire not to negotiate." Except for rare cases of oversubscribed cars that are waitlist-only, just about any car dealer will be happy to serve you.
> It could be simple but it is not.
No not really, buying a car is rather complex because it is, by definition, a complex transaction. Are you paying cash upfront with no financing? If so, you're in the minority. Even coming to the dealership with financing already arranged through a third party (bank, credit union) is relatively rare. What level of protection do you want? Some people are OK with the factory warranty and nothing else, other people want more peace of mind and are willing to pay for it. The car will require servicing -- oil changes, tune-ups, belt replacements, etc -- again, some people are fine paying per appointment, others want to just pay one price and have no further financial obligation. When the car is in the shop, will you need a loaner car, a ride home? Will you require next-day appointments? Some people want those things to be guaranteed, others don't want them at all, unless they are free. (and we haven't even discussed leasing)
Buying a mobile phone in 2023 is not simple or straightforward, even when you know the exact model you want. How much storage? Do you want a protection plan? Screen protection only, extended warranty, spills and drops also? How about a case? Don't forget a screen protector! And that's if you're purchasing a phone straight up. Phone + plan is crazy complicated -- do you want auto-upgrade after 2 years? 3 years? Pay for the phone upfront or monthly? One line or family? Hotspot allowed? All of this for a $1000 purchase. Now extrapolate to a $40,000 purchase expected to last 5-7 years, a product that requires the owner to keep up with maintenance schedules, that accumulates all kinds of dirt, rocks, gunk, inside and out... you get the idea.
Or am I missing something?
That used to be the case but the plug-in hybrids like the RAV4 prime and the Prius prime can be driven entirely in EV mode.
For most people, 40 miles of EV range is going to cover 95% of their trips.
> In EV Drive, the Accord Hybrid is propelled solely by its electric motor and the lithium-ion battery pack. This mode can be selected—and used for short distances—by pressing the EV button.
https://www.hondainfocenter.com/2022/Accord-Hybrid/Feature-G...
I am one of the few who doesn't want an EV, though. Not because of being an EV specifically, but because there seems to be no EVs on the market that don't phone home.
In my neighborhood, I'd say we see about 20% EVs.
I'm sure it's above the national average- it seems like all I see on highways are conventional crossovers, trucks, bigger trucks, "SUVs" that are so big they're basically small RVs. A smattering of these cars- and a few sedans- are hybrid. Very few EVs, except for, of course, Teslas- which are pretty hot in our area. It might be the fastest growing brand of vehicle in these parts.
I can tell you what made us hesitate: lack of a usable charging station infrastructure. We will basically use our EV for in-town and nearby area use. No serious highway trips.
Battery replacement cost is real concern. Quick charging would make longer trips feasible- if we could find more charging stations on major highways, a charge of half an hour or so is not bad- but frequent quick charging will prematurely wear out our battery which currently would cost $6000 to replace. So we won't be quick charging it. That leaves trickle charging so every 70 mi or so we'd have to stay at a hotel while the car charged fully.
The final concern for us was EVs are still dirtier to produce than combustion machines. We hope this balance will change as adoption increases, but it's a little discouraging that the owner of the fastest growing EV brand is a right-of-center ideologue which makes me doubt he'll be converting his plants to solar and wind energy anytime soon.
Also, take a look at any of the economic impact of production. Gas vehicles are worse from an environmental perspective after only a few years. If you destroy an EV as soon as its made then sure, it'll be worse, but otherwise it's a win.
I went to the big local auto show in the spring and sat in a ton of cars, including a bunch of the new EVs. They all have Tesla envy. Giant touchscreens. No buttons. Interior and exterior design that's there to shout at you that you drive an EV rather than be useful.
Hard pass.
Every dealer was immediately talking to me about financing options and specials before I even sat in any single car, let alone test drove one.
Of the 5 makes I test drove:
only 1 was willing to have the car configured with an actual single-pedal-driving experience (Volvo). Most were worried that my unfamiliarity with single-pedal-driving would lead to a bad test drive experience.
only 1 was willing to talk to me in clear terms about how route planning and mapping would work with the charging network. 2 different dealers told me I would have to download "an app off the appstore" for route planning & charging.
every dealer had some sort of dealership mark-up on the EV. Usually in the range of $1K - $3K. The Audi dealer was kind enough not to lie to us about the purpose, it was a dealership markup that he thought would be negotiable if it meant losing the sale.
Our Tesla test-drive experience - we showed up for our appointment, got some brief instructions / Q&A, and were handed a set of keys to tool around with for an hour. Another Q&A after, and no pressure to do anything else. We left without any purchase commitment, and made that separately online on our own time after more deliberation about the decision.
My partner and I went into this process sure we would pick a non-Tesla, it was the last car type we test drove after weeks of trying others. Every dealership turned us off in some way. That combined with the raw numbers (price of car, range, cargo space, towing capacity) it's no contest that Tesla has both the best EV and the best buying experience for an EV.
Certainly, there's got to be a relationship between the price at the pump and how attractive EV become to car buyers. Instead, we get a solution(s) that's good for politicians but not so good for citizens?
For some reason, dealers and automakers are making the purchasing process for electric cars 10x harder than it needs to be.