Actually this idea sounds to good to be true. Almost like a geek "The Boat That Rocked", but at the end, immigration or customs could be the pain in the ass for the residents of this ship. Not so much on how feasible it is, but more on the "they will make life hell for the residents on some kind of blacklist".
It all depends on the mood of third parties.
But actually this is the greatest hack to the immigration laws available.
I strongly suspect the ICE people will be relatively favorable toward this -- it's not skirting any of the laws they care about (drugs, terrorism). You can EASILY win the PR battle to say this is creating wealth in the USA. All the ship administrators need to do is run a law abiding California-registered corp on shore which pays all costs for a private dock, etc., and to comply fully with SOLAS, USCG, and such -- allowing inspections freely, and generally being respectful toward the local maritime community. The big issue is going to be whether existing customs/immigration facilities have the kind of hours the blueseed people want; if not, they have to pay for extra federal service.
I ran tech ops on Sealand 2000-2002 (which is basically "The Platform That Rocked"), and due to a great relationship with the local pilots and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, there were zero problems with them. This wasn't the case in the 60s/70s, which is why they got treated badly.
(Offtopic) Out of curiosity, do you think SeaLand's goal of becoming a datahaven was ever realistic? do you think other datahavens will come up in the future?
Physical datahavens only really have meaning if it gets you associated legal services (payment processing, incorp, legal); once banking is fully virtualized, you can do purely online entities too. So yes, datahavens will happen -- they will just be a mix of strongly-associated-with-physical-jurisdiction things, and virtualized things.
The USA is basically a datahaven today for many things, and has been for a while.
Fully virtualized payment processing exists: Bitcoin. In fact, the decentralized and independent currency fits very well the philosophy of micronations like Sealand: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8475.0
slashdot had a bunch of things; I did a Q&A there, and maybe 10 other articles got posted. That, the wikipedia article, and the wired article are probably the best overall information.
This is a really interesting idea, but they will have to be very careful about the culture and laws they enforce, especially with regards to wages and working hours.
Who pays the rent? What if the team member wants a private cabin and not sweatshop style accommodation? (Maybe I am thinking about the wrong demographic?)
- What happens when you want to leave and your visa is expired/revoked ? This sound like a place where you could really get stuck, with all the associated potential for abuse.
- They can make a killing on the price of coffee, food and entertainment for all these people.
Minor quibble: the 1GBps link seems small distributed over all the companies/person they imagine.
Minor quibble? The 1Gbps (notice the small 'b') is a f*cking disaster. My ADSL connection has about 10Gbps (1.2MB/s), and that is so-so. Imagine you are working and need to download a 600MB Linux ISO, or something like that. Disaster. Makes one question their logic and the whole project.
In the slide deck, it mentions that to get onto the boat, you need to put down a deposit to cover travel to a country of your choice. One would hope that they'd run a quick sanity check that each person's chosen country was one they had residency or a visa for (I can see someone only stumping up enough money to get to shore, but not actually having a US visa...)
Why is that? High density living is inherently FAR MORE environmentally friendly than low density suburban living.
No daily commuting. Small rooms, relatively efficient hvac. The only downsides are generating power/water locally (using diesels) and fuel for boats to/from (I really doubt they'll use helicopters much; they're really expensive, especially to operate over water). So probably somewhat more environmentally friendly than a similar number of people distributed across the Bay Area, but less efficient than everyone living in a Yscraper.
This isn't your typical "high density living" though. You need to transport food and water out to the ship, and you would need to transport trash and human waste back to the mainland to be processed. In the process, you will burn an ton of fuel. This thing would also need some pretty substantial power generating facility to handle a boat full of computers, so they would probably be running the cruise ship engines 24/7 to generate the power, which is also terrible for the environment.
As far as I know, they are always running. Even for the large shipping vessels. There was an article in Popular Science recently about how they are trying to come up with some sort of way for these ships to plug into the mainland for power while they are at port.
You can run multiple sizes of engine/generator to produce power and propulsion. You have big engines for moving the ship, which are usually off, and a smaller power generating system which powers maybe 150% of the normal electrical load, plus small thrusters for staying in position.
Diesel is expensive -- that alone will cause them to be fuel efficient and thus relatively environmentally friendly.
Right, but this is purpose speced for long-term stationary operation. FPSOs and other ships like that DO operate in that manner. Naval ships do, too. The reason other ships don't is that they're in relatively constant motion, and even those are switching to use shore power and aux power, since they have switched to more expensive fuel (diesel vs. bunker), fuel has gone up in price (what, 3x?), and environmental regulations apply.
Big marine engines are crazy (like 100k horsepower?), but that's not what you would use for this purpose.
So you incorporate on the BVIs or a similar tax heaven, because you don't want to pay taxes. You are not even using the infrastructure of a country, so that doesn't even feel morally wrong. But crucial parts of your company lay within the USA (servers, some investors, consultants, bank accounts..). There have been tax cases before (at least in Europe) where it has been argued that a server equals a permanent business establishment and therefore is taxable (I can not find an English language article on the quick but I remember a case where a german hat incorporated in Cyprus and used german servers). So that would be a mess.
2. Bank accounts
Does the country of the boats registration or the country you choose to incorporate have a stable banking system and currency? Can you get a Paypal (or whatever payment provider) account for this bank account? Or will you go for a US bank, which again leads us to (1), also I dont know how hard it is to open a bank account in the US on the name of a foreign company with no entity in the US. What will potential costumers think about bank accounts in county x? What happens if the US tightens rules on money laundry, making your transfers a pain?
Many questions will have to be solved on the way. I really hope the project succeeds, especially if it pushes US law-makers to think about their visas.
1. You don't have to be a citizen to incorporate in the US. Y Combinator requires everyone to incorporate in the US regardless of their home country. It doesn't seem like Blueseed will have a similar requirement, but they should probably advise their startups to do so for the sake of it much easier to get investments.
2. Once you have a US corporation, you can have a US bank account.
So while the issues you raise could be problems for some companies, it's actually fairly straightforward and cheap (there are costs to your agents in Delware and a few similar items).
The slides said "you choose where to incorporate" (slide 26).
I know its pretty easy to incorporate in the US, but AFAIK as soon as you do business with the US (rent servers from US company, have US-bank account) you are subject to the IRS (I don't know what rules apply). Why pay taxes and/or waste resources (tax consultants / lawyers) to a country that didn't want your business in the first place?
Because the primary point of Blueseed is to allow easy access to investments from Silicon Valley. Getting invested in without a convenient corporate and financial structure. I think the IRS is an acceptable tradeoff based on the vastly greater availability of investment in Silicon Valley vs anywhere else in the world.
I too see accounting as a hurdle but think customer validation might suffer as well. "Get off the boat" actually has a nicer ring than "get out of the building" but will obviously be harder. As much as I love hackathons, there are fringe benefits to mixing with normal-folk on occasion. I can't explain how much I've learned from overhearing women explain Pintrest to one-another.
What about bringing customers to the boat? Weekly "demo days" could bring a ferry-full of future customers to the ship, either dedicated to a single startup (for B2B/specialist businesses) or shared between many (for general/consumer ones). The added advantage? People who are willing to head out to the middle of the ocean to try a new product would, I'd think, be archetypical "earlyvangelists".
I'm not sure i'd want to be on a boat full of programmers and entrepreneurs. Just imagine the sort of arguments one could get yourself into.
Also how will order be enforced? One cannot assume everyone will be nice and benevolent. What happens in a medical emergency, can you get to the nearest hospital in time (assuming the onboard facilities are insufficient)? The lead programmer just fell overboard during a storm, what happens?
what's the difference with your lead programmare having a motorcycle accident at 2.00 a.m. while coming back from a long coding session (or just from a party)?
A lot of them jumped. Some were last seen losing thousands in the casino, some were depressed, and others were from developing countries, good swimmers, and went overboard just off the US shoreline.
It's not that common for people to fall overboard accidentally.
Pay for some private military contractors, doctors, and a standby helicopter. Split the cost.
EDIT: If PMC are too militant, just any lenient security company would do. I don't really see how this is a problem. Think of it as a big festival with less alcohol and run for a longer time period.
... I'd much, much rather be policed by pretty much any western police force as opposed to a PMC. Heck, I'd sonner submit myself to the Chinese gongan than a PMC.
IMO private military contractors are pretty much a non-answer to the problem of policing. I'd go as far as to say that PMCs are an inappropriate solution to any problem that doesn't involve lots of people getting shot.
> Think of it as a big festival with less alcohol and run for a longer time period.
Festivals have to deal with minor security, not criminal problems. Police are still around - whether patrolling the area, or in an on-site office, or on the end of a phone call - to deal with any major problems (all the way up to rape and murder).
> What happens in a medical emergency, can you get to the nearest hospital in time (assuming the onboard facilities are insufficient)? The lead programmer just fell overboard during a storm, what happens?
This problem has been solved for cruise ships. I don't know the details of how, but surely the same issues and solutions apply pretty directly.
Cruise ships are really big. They can have thousands of passengers (mostly elderly) and thousands of staff. It's pretty much guaranteed you'll have a few heart attacks. They have full-time doctors and nurses, and on-board hospitals. If someone dies, they hide them in their cabin (assuming they were not sharing) until they get to the next port. If someone's sick, they look after them until they land, though they can call for an airlift in extreme circumstances. They generally aren't that far from land (because cruising through empty oceans is boring).
The law is either the nearest country (if you're 12 or 24 nautical miles away, depending on the circumstances), or the law of their flag state (if they are in the high seas). Generally, they avoid making arrests, and throw trouble makers out the next port. I think their registered home state generally turns a blind eye on what they do.
So, a meaningful solution would be to have a small, but well equipped clinic on board. Required staff can be airlifted in from the mainland within minutes in emergencies - an airport helicopter transfer in NYC costs $1,600, so the cost isn't prohibitive. Regular appointments can be attended by the doctor taking the ferry.
The "avoid making arrests, and throw trouble makers out" approach seems viable. Make sure companies on the boat post a bond for their employees that will cover throwing them out (sending them to their country of citizenship or the ships flag state for trial) if they won't/can't leave on their own.
You're on a cruise ship for a very short time, with breaks in between. Imagine being on this sausage factory, I mean, "entrepreneur ship", for months on end.
First of all, this certainly sounds like an interesting idea, regardless of whether or not it comes to fruition.
However, I don't know him personally, but everything I've ever read that was written by Peter Thiel had a really obnoxious tone. Assuming he's like that in real life (and it's possible he isn't), I can't imagine people wanting to be stuck on a boat with him. I'm dead serious. If he's just backing the project financially, I could really see it working. But if he's making appearances, his writing really makes him sound like the most arrogant SOB you could ever meet. I really could see this project failing if one too many stressed out entrepreneurs living in close quarters got into a yelling match with him.
So, the big sale here is the 30 minutes to... the shore of Santa Cruz? From there to Palo Alto is another hour (or more)? Unless they mean the Ano Nuevo Bay, which you'd have to drive even longer to get into the valley.
The real cultural wins they talk about in this slide deck don't come from the formal interactions planned ahead, but the random ones. The other day I was having an americano while doing some research in a cafe I'd never been to, and I accidentally got into a conversation with someone I'd never met before about writing compilers, changing python syntax for domain specific VM performance, and our favorite keyboards. The conversation has sparked at least a week of creativity and thought.
Anyone who's worked in technology outside of Silicon Valley (RTP, what up!) knows just how amazingly drastic the difference is. You're not going to be able to co-opt it on a boat 1.5-2 hours away.
But maybe they will. I'm going to bet against this, but I hope I lose my money. Success being a function of birthplace and parental wealth/race is a tragedy.
It's not going to duplicate SV, but it does make the world a lot smaller. You could organize regular visits from local digeratii and VC's, surely better than being on the other side of the world in a different timezone where your most useful interaction is with the local grocer.
Which means the project (or at least that benefit) could be obtained anywhere simply by attracting a lot of startups. Cabo San Lucas, Berlin, doesn't really matter to me- just make the cost of living cheap, the visas easy to get and the regulatory burden relatively low and I'll sign up.
No, no the whole idea about building a floating incubator. It's the fact that immigrant & visa laws are so ridiculously outlandish that it's perfectly conceivable to devise an elaborate and expensive "hacks" to circumvent them. Along with IP, this is probably the most visible area where U.S. law is stiffing innovation rather than fostering it.
If this works out, can we expect thousands of equivalent boats offshore of every desirable country in 10 years? What are the (legal or otherwise) limits?
The demographic of startup founders is severely lacking in gender and racial diversity. I don't know if I would want to go for months only seeing 1000 similar people (mostly men) with very similar occupations. In the end, entrepreneurs are people too and this would be a very bizarre society.
You can go on "shore leave" as often as a US tourist visa allows. I recall having read in a previous mention of Blueseed that they could set up connections to ports in Mexico and Canada as well, although I'm not perfectly sure how that would work - a ferry would take a long time. Seaplanes perhaps?
And as often as your wallet can afford the trip --- travel by boat isn't cheap. I noticed that they didn't mention the cost of the boat taxi; either it is a free shuttle, partially subsidized, or in worst case you'll cover the actual cost of the boat trip (a ferry in Seattle cost me $20 one way when I was there years ago; gas prices have gone up since, boats get horrible mileage, and they depreciate quickly and need lots of upkeep in salt water).
I'm male but both my cofounders are female. One of whom is not a US citizen and thus to be in "silicon valley" this "boat" would be the best option for us.
Here in Startup Chile, a lot of the companies are run by women or involve women-- I'd say the gender ratio (completely unscientific) is something like %60 men, not %90 men.
If you look at the costs associated with leasing and operating a vessel of that size and think this will be profitable, I strongly suggest you invest in it.
It's a brilliantly cool idea... but I'm just trying to imagine the gender dynamic on that ship, and I can't come up with a way it could be very healthy.
Which leads directly to another opportunity for Blueseed to bring in revenue, if you catch my meaning. Imagine: for an extra $500/month you could have one or two nights of 'companionship' with a lady brought in from shore.
I really hope this is going to work but am fearful that the system is just going to crush them in short order. I suppose that is a battle worth fighting.
So they are going to buy/build a 1,000 passenger ship (and a ferry, and a helicopter), fit it out top to toe with custom designs (including gym, pool, sports facilities, and apparently enough to keep you from going crazy), staff the thing (including security), maintain it, ship food (and people) back and forth from the mainland, etc.
And where exactly do they make their money? A bed on this thing is going to be mighty expensive....
Ok. Sorry my sarcasm hasn't come through. I read that. The point of what I'm saying is that I dont think that is possible.
As a back-of-the-fag-packet calculation: 1,000 beds, if you are extremely lucky and well prepared 80% paid occupancy (staff, as well as unoccupied rooms), at $1,600pcm (their website mentions this as an average). ~$15m a year gross income. Minus operating costs, of which there are many large ones listed above, salaries etc. you'd be extremely lucky to be making a couple of million a year. Considering the ship alone is going to cost you > $50m for anything servicable (let alone the fanciful designs on their website), I think you'd be lucky to pay it off in 20 years.
First, paying off a house in 20 years is pretty decent, and people make those investments all the time.
Second, this is Peter Thiel throwing money at his ideals. He's probably more concerned with generating publicity for the ideas than making a perfect investment.
Third, they are also taking equity. A single or two good buy-outs or IPOs could pay for the whole thing.
> " He's probably more concerned with generating publicity for the ideas than making a perfect investment."
And that's the problem. This strikes me as a Bioshock-y move - a libertarian who's sick of the "oppressive" government getting in his way, so now he's going to create his libertarian government-free paradise floating in the open seas.
... and has less to do with actually funding startups. The startups in this case seem like a means to an end, and as a startup I'd be very unsettled by that.
Not to mention, I can pay similar rent here in SF and not give up a big chunk of equity just to have office space.
An estimate for the rent was specified in the slides: A room and office space is 1200$/person/month in a shared room or 3000$/person/month for a single with ocean view.
Can someone elaborate on how this is better than working remotely from back home? It doesn't sound like there's going to be a lot of action on the silicon deck, with people always coming and going to the shore. Why don't they just setup a remote mini incubator in a lawless region of the world where people can join online?
Though I'm not sure about the "lawless" part, I like that idea more.
I've always found the blueseed idea backwards. Come on, live on a boat just to be able to work in some country? I wouldn't do that unless I had no other choice. And it's horribly inefficient and expensive too. I surely hope that petty geography issues will become less important in the future, as international cooperation through the internet increases.
I vote for buying an old house in Cabo San Lucas and setting up a kick ass startup hub in front of the beach with all the modern amenities like huge teleconferencing walls and all. People could just cross over for a weekend on a tourist visa just for the really important face to face meetings.
This is probably quite an excellent idea. We ran our startup for three months from central mexico. It was great in every way that matters. The cost of living was really cheap. The neighborhood was really a lot safer than the ones in america. Nobody ripped us off or tried to or overcharged us. Everyone was pretty nice. Only downside was the internet sucked where we were staying but that could be rectified I'm sure.
IF there's an airport, might even be close enough for people to come down in their gulf streams for board meetings. (I don't give a damn about being close to silicon valley, but do like the idea of working near there startups.)
This is really cool. It would be awesome if US citizens and residents can rent a room in the ship for 2-3 months and work from there. The rent is cheap and you get the amenities of a cruise ship. Plus US citizens and residents can travel to SF by ferry in anytime they want. Besides it would be difficult host so many entrepreneurs in the city in one place for a long time. Ship is a great idea. Similar idea can be applied to certain types of education too.
IANAL, but I probably have more experience than many regarding immigration issues.
If you sell everything you have to live on this ship just outside of the US to sort of get access to a part of the US that the current visa system says you can't have access to, you may find you have a hard time demonstrating you have non-immigrant intent when trying to go to shore for meetings or R&R.
Keep in mind that every entry to the US is at the discretion of whatever border agent you happen to get that day, and pre-approved visa in your passport is merely a guide and not a guarantee of entry.
It is a bold idea, it is "slightly" crazy, but it is worth giving a shot. Things like this push the status quo and capture mainstream media's attention to cover the issue.
Not everybody feels that way about immigration laws.
Outside SV, many regard H-1B Visas as a force that creates downward pressure on wages and working conditions for software developers.
One thing we do know is that immigrants form "networks" in SV and other places. There's no doubt that some of these networks are highly innovative but it's also clear that many immigrants are motivated to bring as many of their friends from the "old country" as they can -- and this consideration might affect their decision and hiring practices more than rational and economic considerations.
The truth is that the social fabric is strained to the breaking point in SF and SV. You can't walk 25 feet in SF without tripping over a homeless hippie. I don't know exactly how, but the overheated venture capital culture has got something to do with it.
Something I never hear about is that SV investors might consider starting a secondary center in, say, Kansas City or Mumbai.
1. I believe that by law an H-1B professional's salaries have to be competitive so that they don't undercut the market. In fact, I recall in my previous company that they posted salaries drawn for each H1B position.
2. Re: The networking point. This happens everywhere. Immigrants don't have some sort of magical cultural bond that non-immigrants don't. There are huge networks formed by ex-frat house members, club members and family friends that go on to take over the upper rings of society. (The US political society anyone?)
3. The homeless situation in SF is complex and ascribing it to one factor: The fact that a lot of money is pouring to the bay area is not a very convincing factor. Some competing "reasons" are that SF has nicer weather (thereby attracting people from other parts of the country), is generally more hospitable to homeless people (This might be off base but I believe benefits are better).
Do you truly believe that when an industry writes legislation that they haven't left loopholes in the resulting laws large enough to navigate the Queen Elizabeth II through?
104 comments
[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 138 ms ] threadIt all depends on the mood of third parties.
But actually this is the greatest hack to the immigration laws available.
How so? Wouldn't this be the same as any other cruise ship?
I ran tech ops on Sealand 2000-2002 (which is basically "The Platform That Rocked"), and due to a great relationship with the local pilots and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, there were zero problems with them. This wasn't the case in the 60s/70s, which is why they got treated badly.
The USA is basically a datahaven today for many things, and has been for a while.
Who pays the rent? What if the team member wants a private cabin and not sweatshop style accommodation? (Maybe I am thinking about the wrong demographic?)
- What happens when you want to leave and your visa is expired/revoked ? This sound like a place where you could really get stuck, with all the associated potential for abuse.
- They can make a killing on the price of coffee, food and entertainment for all these people.
Minor quibble: the 1GBps link seems small distributed over all the companies/person they imagine.
10 Gbps = 1280 MB/s.
No daily commuting. Small rooms, relatively efficient hvac. The only downsides are generating power/water locally (using diesels) and fuel for boats to/from (I really doubt they'll use helicopters much; they're really expensive, especially to operate over water). So probably somewhat more environmentally friendly than a similar number of people distributed across the Bay Area, but less efficient than everyone living in a Yscraper.
Diesel is expensive -- that alone will cause them to be fuel efficient and thus relatively environmentally friendly.
Big marine engines are crazy (like 100k horsepower?), but that's not what you would use for this purpose.
1. Taxes:
So you incorporate on the BVIs or a similar tax heaven, because you don't want to pay taxes. You are not even using the infrastructure of a country, so that doesn't even feel morally wrong. But crucial parts of your company lay within the USA (servers, some investors, consultants, bank accounts..). There have been tax cases before (at least in Europe) where it has been argued that a server equals a permanent business establishment and therefore is taxable (I can not find an English language article on the quick but I remember a case where a german hat incorporated in Cyprus and used german servers). So that would be a mess.
2. Bank accounts
Does the country of the boats registration or the country you choose to incorporate have a stable banking system and currency? Can you get a Paypal (or whatever payment provider) account for this bank account? Or will you go for a US bank, which again leads us to (1), also I dont know how hard it is to open a bank account in the US on the name of a foreign company with no entity in the US. What will potential costumers think about bank accounts in county x? What happens if the US tightens rules on money laundry, making your transfers a pain?
Many questions will have to be solved on the way. I really hope the project succeeds, especially if it pushes US law-makers to think about their visas.
2. Once you have a US corporation, you can have a US bank account.
So while the issues you raise could be problems for some companies, it's actually fairly straightforward and cheap (there are costs to your agents in Delware and a few similar items).
edited for style and coherence
I know its pretty easy to incorporate in the US, but AFAIK as soon as you do business with the US (rent servers from US company, have US-bank account) you are subject to the IRS (I don't know what rules apply). Why pay taxes and/or waste resources (tax consultants / lawyers) to a country that didn't want your business in the first place?
Also how will order be enforced? One cannot assume everyone will be nice and benevolent. What happens in a medical emergency, can you get to the nearest hospital in time (assuming the onboard facilities are insufficient)? The lead programmer just fell overboard during a storm, what happens?
> Also how will order be enforced?
This all too easily lends itself to some pirate jokes, perhaps revolving around vim users being forced to walk the plank.
That's not really how large ships work.
It's not that common for people to fall overboard accidentally.
Pay for some private military contractors, doctors, and a standby helicopter. Split the cost.
EDIT: If PMC are too militant, just any lenient security company would do. I don't really see how this is a problem. Think of it as a big festival with less alcohol and run for a longer time period.
IMO private military contractors are pretty much a non-answer to the problem of policing. I'd go as far as to say that PMCs are an inappropriate solution to any problem that doesn't involve lots of people getting shot.
Festivals have to deal with minor security, not criminal problems. Police are still around - whether patrolling the area, or in an on-site office, or on the end of a phone call - to deal with any major problems (all the way up to rape and murder).
This problem has been solved for cruise ships. I don't know the details of how, but surely the same issues and solutions apply pretty directly.
The law is either the nearest country (if you're 12 or 24 nautical miles away, depending on the circumstances), or the law of their flag state (if they are in the high seas). Generally, they avoid making arrests, and throw trouble makers out the next port. I think their registered home state generally turns a blind eye on what they do.
The "avoid making arrests, and throw trouble makers out" approach seems viable. Make sure companies on the boat post a bond for their employees that will cover throwing them out (sending them to their country of citizenship or the ships flag state for trial) if they won't/can't leave on their own.
Seriously though, wouldn't this be considered "economic terrorism" by the US Gov't, eventually, if it does well?
It seems the timeframe is very optimistic (1 year to find a boat and adapt it??) but if it works it will change the world.
However, I don't know him personally, but everything I've ever read that was written by Peter Thiel had a really obnoxious tone. Assuming he's like that in real life (and it's possible he isn't), I can't imagine people wanting to be stuck on a boat with him. I'm dead serious. If he's just backing the project financially, I could really see it working. But if he's making appearances, his writing really makes him sound like the most arrogant SOB you could ever meet. I really could see this project failing if one too many stressed out entrepreneurs living in close quarters got into a yelling match with him.
The real cultural wins they talk about in this slide deck don't come from the formal interactions planned ahead, but the random ones. The other day I was having an americano while doing some research in a cafe I'd never been to, and I accidentally got into a conversation with someone I'd never met before about writing compilers, changing python syntax for domain specific VM performance, and our favorite keyboards. The conversation has sparked at least a week of creativity and thought.
Anyone who's worked in technology outside of Silicon Valley (RTP, what up!) knows just how amazingly drastic the difference is. You're not going to be able to co-opt it on a boat 1.5-2 hours away.
But maybe they will. I'm going to bet against this, but I hope I lose my money. Success being a function of birthplace and parental wealth/race is a tragedy.
No, no the whole idea about building a floating incubator. It's the fact that immigrant & visa laws are so ridiculously outlandish that it's perfectly conceivable to devise an elaborate and expensive "hacks" to circumvent them. Along with IP, this is probably the most visible area where U.S. law is stiffing innovation rather than fostering it.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/pdf/CurrentFares.pdf
Here in Startup Chile, a lot of the companies are run by women or involve women-- I'd say the gender ratio (completely unscientific) is something like %60 men, not %90 men.
If you look at the costs associated with leasing and operating a vessel of that size and think this will be profitable, I strongly suggest you invest in it.
And where exactly do they make their money? A bed on this thing is going to be mighty expensive....
As a back-of-the-fag-packet calculation: 1,000 beds, if you are extremely lucky and well prepared 80% paid occupancy (staff, as well as unoccupied rooms), at $1,600pcm (their website mentions this as an average). ~$15m a year gross income. Minus operating costs, of which there are many large ones listed above, salaries etc. you'd be extremely lucky to be making a couple of million a year. Considering the ship alone is going to cost you > $50m for anything servicable (let alone the fanciful designs on their website), I think you'd be lucky to pay it off in 20 years.
Second, this is Peter Thiel throwing money at his ideals. He's probably more concerned with generating publicity for the ideas than making a perfect investment.
Third, they are also taking equity. A single or two good buy-outs or IPOs could pay for the whole thing.
And that's the problem. This strikes me as a Bioshock-y move - a libertarian who's sick of the "oppressive" government getting in his way, so now he's going to create his libertarian government-free paradise floating in the open seas.
... and has less to do with actually funding startups. The startups in this case seem like a means to an end, and as a startup I'd be very unsettled by that.
Not to mention, I can pay similar rent here in SF and not give up a big chunk of equity just to have office space.
I've always found the blueseed idea backwards. Come on, live on a boat just to be able to work in some country? I wouldn't do that unless I had no other choice. And it's horribly inefficient and expensive too. I surely hope that petty geography issues will become less important in the future, as international cooperation through the internet increases.
IF there's an airport, might even be close enough for people to come down in their gulf streams for board meetings. (I don't give a damn about being close to silicon valley, but do like the idea of working near there startups.)
If you sell everything you have to live on this ship just outside of the US to sort of get access to a part of the US that the current visa system says you can't have access to, you may find you have a hard time demonstrating you have non-immigrant intent when trying to go to shore for meetings or R&R.
http://www.visapro.com/Immigration-Articles/?a=1575&z=31
Keep in mind that every entry to the US is at the discretion of whatever border agent you happen to get that day, and pre-approved visa in your passport is merely a guide and not a guarantee of entry.
Outside SV, many regard H-1B Visas as a force that creates downward pressure on wages and working conditions for software developers.
One thing we do know is that immigrants form "networks" in SV and other places. There's no doubt that some of these networks are highly innovative but it's also clear that many immigrants are motivated to bring as many of their friends from the "old country" as they can -- and this consideration might affect their decision and hiring practices more than rational and economic considerations.
The truth is that the social fabric is strained to the breaking point in SF and SV. You can't walk 25 feet in SF without tripping over a homeless hippie. I don't know exactly how, but the overheated venture capital culture has got something to do with it.
Something I never hear about is that SV investors might consider starting a secondary center in, say, Kansas City or Mumbai.
1. I believe that by law an H-1B professional's salaries have to be competitive so that they don't undercut the market. In fact, I recall in my previous company that they posted salaries drawn for each H1B position.
2. Re: The networking point. This happens everywhere. Immigrants don't have some sort of magical cultural bond that non-immigrants don't. There are huge networks formed by ex-frat house members, club members and family friends that go on to take over the upper rings of society. (The US political society anyone?)
3. The homeless situation in SF is complex and ascribing it to one factor: The fact that a lot of money is pouring to the bay area is not a very convincing factor. Some competing "reasons" are that SF has nicer weather (thereby attracting people from other parts of the country), is generally more hospitable to homeless people (This might be off base but I believe benefits are better).
Do you truly believe that when an industry writes legislation that they haven't left loopholes in the resulting laws large enough to navigate the Queen Elizabeth II through?