Posted this based on an agent I know mentioning that she’s effectively taken the last four days off because the lack of MLS makes her job “nearly impossible to do properly.” She said many at her agency are doing the same.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this shows up in major economic indicators this month.
In fact, Rapattoni is the smallest of the major MLSes. Behind Core Logic, Navica, FBS, and Black Knight, Rapattoni is used by 5% of the organizations. This graph is slightly misleading though, as it's by number of MLSes served, not by number of subscribers, and CoreLogic "Serves nearly half of the MLSes with more than 10,000 subscribers".
Worked on a team doing nationwide MLS feeds via a variety of sources eg IDX, VOW, etc. Feels like some sort of arcane art after a certain point trying to get everything to play nicely on a unified interface.
My girlfriend runs a medical provider company that bills through most major health insurance companies. One of these companies (a large, well-known insurer) will only accept payment requests by fax, M-F, 8am to 5pm. Yes, I'm serious. They still have a fax machine, and it gets unplugged everyday at 5pm.
I don’t know how anyone could argue with you. The MLS is literally just a database of house listings. In some states you can only access it if you’re a realtor, solely to keep their job secure. Making it decentralized would open up that data for everyone.
It's a bit more complicated than that. One issue is that some information should only be shared between professionals. For instance, if a seller has a keypad entry, the listing will often contain the passcode for a buyers agent if they want to tour the house while the seller is away. That kind of information can't be shared publicly, so you need some degree of privacy control.
Ok so keep that behind a gate and open up the rest. That’s a flimsy excuse. We are software engineers, we know how easy it would be to expose a subset of the data. It’s job security plain and simple. Same reason you can’t buy a car direct from the manufacturer and have to pay thousands in markup to some dealership that adds zero value.
It's not really so simple as it might seem. For example: In this blockchain, how do you identify a property? Address? Lots of properties are listed that do not have an address. County parcel number? Also not ideal.
But, the real issue is that, as the system currently is, you need to have a license to list a property. Don't like it? You can do FSBO. But, basically nobody does, because the majority of buyers have a Realtor and are showing properties in the MLS.
Realtors should, ideally, provide value in the transaction. When I bought a house, for example, my agent provided tips on how to structure the offer that I'm confident allowed us to get the house we got. On the selling side, the should be providing marketing expertise, as well as negotiating the legal landmines. For example, if you were to list your own house and say "This room would make an ideal man-cave", you are opening yourself up to litigation under the Fair Housing laws (you cannot suggest who should live in your house).
Now, whether this is worth 5-8% of the sale price is another matter for discussion, but let's not forget that Realtors do provide some value.
I'm literally not a cryptobro. I've never owned cryptocurrency, and I've never lost or made any money in speculating on any of it. Rather, I find the data structures and algorithms interesting and relevant to this use case. Promoting cryptocurrencies is not a personal crusade of mine, and I hope shutting down conversations about a data structure is not a personal crusade of anyone on HN.
Agreed, this is the kind of use case blockchain excels at. I worked on a project that attempted to do something like a distributed MLS, and we had major industry leaders on board indicating a large degree of belief that blockchain could revolutionize the industry. MLS is, after all, just a legacy federated system running on inertia.
Unfortunately, it's so difficult to get a critical mass of inventory to succeed; it requires either a massive upfront investment, or partnering with RE developers from the beginning.
The niche was a poster child for disruption! The incumbent is an incompetent crushed under legacy debt! We had all the buzzwords! All the 'major industry leaders' thought we were awesome!
Nothing came of it!
Sounds like every blockchain proposal I've ever delt with.
You talk about 5 years and things take time. I point out that the subject is 15 years along, and still not there. So now you've gone almost 80 years back...what is your point other than "if I move the goalposts enough...maybe I'll get to be right".
A normal database isn't able to be easily disseminated by the people who need access to this data, which is enormous. Then who gets to host it? Real Estate associations are too many, too fragmented, too entrenched to agree on one or even a handful of companies with the privilege to host this information.
A blockchain (assuming you can get buy-in/critical mass from the agencies) has the ability to align some financial incentives of all interested parties to open up access to real estate listings while still holding ownership and profiting from that access.
Instead of real estate companies protecting their listing data, they could offer access to their listing data in exchange for a fee or revenue share. Instead of out-of-date listings parading as up-to-date, there's a public temporal record of updates. Instead of buyers getting restricted or partial information, they can obtain access to the listing data via alternate sources.
Given that MLS services’ current existence is less about the technical innovation of disseminating market information with a shared database of listings, and more about aggressively protecting the status quo of the real estate industry by maintaining information asymmetry between brokers and market participants…I am inclined to react in the style of Jeremy Clarkson: “Oh no! Anyway…”
It's awful that the industry is glued to this dated, monopolistic system.
Why hasn't an alternative emerged?
It would be amazing for buyers to have access to this system. You could query for homes matching all kinds of wild parameters. Instead, it's all under lock and key.
Zillow and the other public systems sit downstream of MLS with a paltry amount of (typically outdated) information. And these are barely searchable.
I posed a similar question in another thread. Why hasn't an alternative emerged for SAP? For Concur? All these tools reputedly universally hated, all have near-monopolies. Why?
Because few are motivated enough to tackle 'boring' problems. Who wants to design a real estate database when you could be working on self driving-crypto-cloud-next level bullshit?
Quite literally they ingest and aggregate MLS data and present it differently with little other value (other than wildly speculating on property values). An MLS "alternative front end" if you will.
I think you've got this a bit turned around. KW, Re/Max, etc, they don't WANT the MLS out of the way. They ARE the MLS. The MLS is the database of the Realtor association. It's just a tool that the Realtors and Brokers use to market the properties to other Realtors and Brokers, and sometimes to the public as well.
Zillow makes money by selling placement on the listings to other agents. Many Realtors really dislike Zillow because of this ("This is MY listing and they are putting someone else's name on it, taking 3% away from me.").
> Quite literally they ingest and aggregate MLS data...
FWIW, I spent time at a large national "disruptor" broker and this is a non-trivial process. There are hundreds of MLS systems in the US, each with its own data, quirks, and synchronization issues. One has to manage so many feeds, cleanup, normalization, etc.
Throw in the many data sharing agreements between various MLS systems and the simple act of deduping suddenly gets complicated.
For consumers, the value is that they can see an aggregate list in one place without having to sign up for them via an individual broker's site.
I’ve dabbled on and off with a much more searchable Zillow with all sorts of crazy filters. I’ve wanted to look across the whole country that less than an hour from an airport, within 10 minutes from a grocery store, and with fiber internet. I’d like to see Zillow or Redfin filter on that
hell, i'd like to filter on that on the websites of fiber providers. they say, "we can't see what areas are covered. we can only see if a specific address is available." i've seen in the days of ADSL that one side of the street was able to get service, but directly across the street was not. Something about how the lines across the street are clustered in older equipment blah blah blah. So they telco doesn't know what equipment where without that specific address lookup.
To my understanding, mostly because the MLS services are owned by realtor associations, and the current model of how they work is highly lucrative to the industry, so they're incentivized to push back on any sort of competition.
This is partly through regulatory capture: real estate organizations lobbied state governments to set licensing requirements for who can actually be involved in the real estate market, and only licensed realtors are allowed to access the MLS.
>Zillow and the other public systems sit downstream of MLS with a paltry amount of (typically outdated) information.
That is largely dependent on the MLS. A lot of Realtors don't really like Zillow, for various reasons that largely boil down to selling marketing on the listings. Our MLS allows individual Realtors to opt-out of sending to Zillow, but otherwise listing data flows over to Zillow within a few minutes usually.
Now, if you have one of those opt-out listings, it doesn't mean that Zillow doesn't have the listing, it just means that they get it through other means, and that usually is what leads to outdated information. As far as the amount of information, they have access to, AFAIK, all the listing information, when pulled directly from the MLS. Going via other sources will make that vary.
Just to clarify a few things, probably not entirely accurate as I'm not a Realtor, but I'm closer to the industry than most:
An MLS is really just a database and associated tooling for advertising properties among Realtors in an area.
The MLS is controlled by a Realtor Association or similar. This is basically all the Realtors/Brokers in an area working together. This is often a good place to concentrate some customer support and data integrity checks, compliance, etc..., for example.
Then there are the Realtors who work with sellers to market properties to buyers, and work with buyers to find the properties and oversee showings, etc...
Realtors vary in quality, for sure. Some sell 1-2 houses a year, some sell 1-2 houses a week.
The system surely has a lot of problems. But, it also provides value in a lot of ways that aren't easy to just remove. So you want to list your own house? Who's going to take the photos? Are you aware of the applicable laws, say WRT commercial drone photography? Do you know what will get you sued if you say it in a listing? How are you going to pick the price? On the other hand, you want to buy a property by directly searching the MLS: are you up for signing the data sharing contracts required to give you access to that data? How are you going to structure the offer? Do you know what a love letter is and whether it's allowed as part of the offer? Do you know the difference between being pre-approved and pre-qualified? How are you going to get access to the property and are you going to accept liability for any damage/theft? If the owner is directly showing the property (they want to remove the Realtor as well), are you both up for staring at each other uncomfortably as you look through their house? :-)
There's an awful lot of money that goes into the Realtor industry. But, if it were easy to get rid of, For Sale By Owner (FSBO) would be more popular. As far as I can tell, at least in my area, FSBO basically doesn't exist.
(Full disclosure: Not a Realtor, SysAdmin to an MLS)
As someone who ran their own UAS company, realtors are the literal worst.
No other industry is so cool with hiring uninsured, unlicensed, and under skilled individuals because they don't want to spend more than $50 total, including your time, transportation, and any editing.
Most houses don't need drone shots, it's a particularly niche market, even for housing.
50 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 83.2 ms ] threadThe headline here on HN seems inaccurate. The entire market is not halted.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this shows up in major economic indicators this month.
https://www.t360.com/insight/articles/the-2022-mls-system-te...
you guys need to get in to medical/prescription claims billing, payments, and reconciliation. That's the real fun stuff right there.
But, the real issue is that, as the system currently is, you need to have a license to list a property. Don't like it? You can do FSBO. But, basically nobody does, because the majority of buyers have a Realtor and are showing properties in the MLS.
Realtors should, ideally, provide value in the transaction. When I bought a house, for example, my agent provided tips on how to structure the offer that I'm confident allowed us to get the house we got. On the selling side, the should be providing marketing expertise, as well as negotiating the legal landmines. For example, if you were to list your own house and say "This room would make an ideal man-cave", you are opening yourself up to litigation under the Fair Housing laws (you cannot suggest who should live in your house).
Now, whether this is worth 5-8% of the sale price is another matter for discussion, but let's not forget that Realtors do provide some value.
(Not a Realtor, SysAdmin to an MLS)
[1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally
Unfortunately, it's so difficult to get a critical mass of inventory to succeed; it requires either a massive upfront investment, or partnering with RE developers from the beginning.
Nothing came of it!
Sounds like every blockchain proposal I've ever delt with.
A blockchain (assuming you can get buy-in/critical mass from the agencies) has the ability to align some financial incentives of all interested parties to open up access to real estate listings while still holding ownership and profiting from that access.
Instead of real estate companies protecting their listing data, they could offer access to their listing data in exchange for a fee or revenue share. Instead of out-of-date listings parading as up-to-date, there's a public temporal record of updates. Instead of buyers getting restricted or partial information, they can obtain access to the listing data via alternate sources.
Why hasn't an alternative emerged?
It would be amazing for buyers to have access to this system. You could query for homes matching all kinds of wild parameters. Instead, it's all under lock and key.
Zillow and the other public systems sit downstream of MLS with a paltry amount of (typically outdated) information. And these are barely searchable.
Because few are motivated enough to tackle 'boring' problems. Who wants to design a real estate database when you could be working on self driving-crypto-cloud-next level bullshit?
Lots of people take on "boring" markets. I don't think that's the problem.
Zillow and Redfin are a few steps removed from being MLS themselves. But for some reason they cannot morph into it.
If MLS threatens to shut them off, that might be grounds for an antitrust lawsuit.
Maybe they're too afraid to risk the business on it? Maybe they did the risk analysis and decided it's not worth it?
Zillow makes money by selling placement on the listings to other agents. Many Realtors really dislike Zillow because of this ("This is MY listing and they are putting someone else's name on it, taking 3% away from me.").
FWIW, I spent time at a large national "disruptor" broker and this is a non-trivial process. There are hundreds of MLS systems in the US, each with its own data, quirks, and synchronization issues. One has to manage so many feeds, cleanup, normalization, etc. Throw in the many data sharing agreements between various MLS systems and the simple act of deduping suddenly gets complicated.
For consumers, the value is that they can see an aggregate list in one place without having to sign up for them via an individual broker's site.
hell, i'd like to filter on that on the websites of fiber providers. they say, "we can't see what areas are covered. we can only see if a specific address is available." i've seen in the days of ADSL that one side of the street was able to get service, but directly across the street was not. Something about how the lines across the street are clustered in older equipment blah blah blah. So they telco doesn't know what equipment where without that specific address lookup.
To my understanding, mostly because the MLS services are owned by realtor associations, and the current model of how they work is highly lucrative to the industry, so they're incentivized to push back on any sort of competition.
This is partly through regulatory capture: real estate organizations lobbied state governments to set licensing requirements for who can actually be involved in the real estate market, and only licensed realtors are allowed to access the MLS.
There are two major class-action lawsuits currently underway that challenge this: https://www.businessinsider.com/real-estate-agents-lawsuits-...
That is largely dependent on the MLS. A lot of Realtors don't really like Zillow, for various reasons that largely boil down to selling marketing on the listings. Our MLS allows individual Realtors to opt-out of sending to Zillow, but otherwise listing data flows over to Zillow within a few minutes usually.
Now, if you have one of those opt-out listings, it doesn't mean that Zillow doesn't have the listing, it just means that they get it through other means, and that usually is what leads to outdated information. As far as the amount of information, they have access to, AFAIK, all the listing information, when pulled directly from the MLS. Going via other sources will make that vary.
An MLS is really just a database and associated tooling for advertising properties among Realtors in an area.
The MLS is controlled by a Realtor Association or similar. This is basically all the Realtors/Brokers in an area working together. This is often a good place to concentrate some customer support and data integrity checks, compliance, etc..., for example.
Then there are the Realtors who work with sellers to market properties to buyers, and work with buyers to find the properties and oversee showings, etc...
Realtors vary in quality, for sure. Some sell 1-2 houses a year, some sell 1-2 houses a week.
The system surely has a lot of problems. But, it also provides value in a lot of ways that aren't easy to just remove. So you want to list your own house? Who's going to take the photos? Are you aware of the applicable laws, say WRT commercial drone photography? Do you know what will get you sued if you say it in a listing? How are you going to pick the price? On the other hand, you want to buy a property by directly searching the MLS: are you up for signing the data sharing contracts required to give you access to that data? How are you going to structure the offer? Do you know what a love letter is and whether it's allowed as part of the offer? Do you know the difference between being pre-approved and pre-qualified? How are you going to get access to the property and are you going to accept liability for any damage/theft? If the owner is directly showing the property (they want to remove the Realtor as well), are you both up for staring at each other uncomfortably as you look through their house? :-)
There's an awful lot of money that goes into the Realtor industry. But, if it were easy to get rid of, For Sale By Owner (FSBO) would be more popular. As far as I can tell, at least in my area, FSBO basically doesn't exist.
(Full disclosure: Not a Realtor, SysAdmin to an MLS)
No other industry is so cool with hiring uninsured, unlicensed, and under skilled individuals because they don't want to spend more than $50 total, including your time, transportation, and any editing.
Most houses don't need drone shots, it's a particularly niche market, even for housing.