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When Microsoft says "your CPU needs to be this high in order to run Windows 11", perhaps listen to them eh?
Wtf.. Come on its just ms getting kickbacks for deprecating hardware.
It would be trivial for Microsoft to strictly enforce their CPU "requirements" on install. They've chosen not to.

The workaround for that isn't some weird hack, it's an explicit registry value that they made.

I don't think end users are supposed to change registry values (even IT admins aren't, as they can use GPO). That qualifies it as a 'weird hack' in my book.
If their supported CPU list wasn't completely arbitrary BS, then you might be on something here. But it isn't There are CPUs that have no problem running the OS that are for no discernible reason "not supported".

And I'm not talking about old crap like Pentium 4s or something. I'm talking about ones that are barely 5yrs old.

Microsoft is moving to a model of "signed software from power on to application level" for Windows. The supported CPUs have the TPM features necessary to support this transition.

Presumably, for Windows 12, remote attestation capability (Pluton) will be required.

Right and for the home user, there is exactly zero benefit from this. There is no reason someone should have to go buy a new computer to replace one that's only 5 years old. A world where local accounts are an enterprise feature and hardware attestation is a home feature is completely backwards.
>> moving to a model of "signed software from power on to application level" for Windows.

This already a thing with Windows 10 in S Mode. So definitely not that.

There are quite a few CPUs that implement the necessary TPM crap and aren't supported. So not that. There are several new CPU features they want, but half or 3/4s of the CPUs on the supported list don't have them. So not that either.

Only valid reason left is that's arbitrary and not based on anything logical.

> "your CPU needs to be this high in order to run Windows 11"

We besides the user, even the CPU has to be on drugs to run Windows 11, something is teribly wrong with this world. /s

> The company also urged users encountering these BSOD errors to file a report using the Feedback Hub.

> To do that, you will have to go through the following steps:

> Launch Feedback Hub by opening the Start menu and typing "Feedback hub", or pressing the Windows key + F

Something seems off here.

After several (three, I think?) boot failures, Windows will automatically restart to recovery mode and use system restore to undo the last update. This fixes the BSODs until you install the updates again.
> This fixes the BSODs until you install the updates again.

But _you_ don't install updates. The thing autoupdates itself.

That depends on your setup, but updates that have been rolled back usually don't get auto-installed for a while exactly for this reason.
Yet another reason not to install the preview updates.
>"Microsoft has received reports of an issue in which users are receiving an 'UNSUPPORTED_PROCESSOR' error message on a blue screen after installing updates released on August 2," Redmond said.

>The company also added that the problematic cumulative updates "might automatically uninstall to allow Windows to start up as expected."

"Might"? What a weaselly way to put it. Either Windows will, or it won't. I realise there's tens of millions of LoC but if we're talking about an update that crashes machines shouldn't you know what the failure mode is before talking to the press?

When an issue is at this scale, you have to give some acknowledgment of the issue even if you don't know its cause.
Agreed, but then you'd expect a behemoth like MS to respond that they're aware, working on finding cause for the issue and releasing a fix. What they did here is throw out a 'maybe it'll fix itself'.
For end users, it's pretty important to know whether their system is hosed or will fix itself
Linguistically, "might" could also mean "will under certain circumstances". It doesn't definitively imply they don't know.

I myself have used "might" when speaking to customers when the criteria by which we would differentiate is something that isn't necessarily accessible to the audience.

Yeah I guess you're right. If that's the case I'd expect the journalist to ask some follow up questions to broadly define in which circumstances it would or wouldn't.
That assumes that the company lets journalist talk to non marketing people.

The term might in marketing department vetted communications often cover over "the techies droned out for 10 minutes using words we did not understand" and few large brands feel that comfortable letting anyone not under some kind of confidentiality agreement talk to anyone in the technical teams.

Everything seems to be from the linked text source so I doubt the journalist actually got to interact with Microsoft at all.
There's a recent Windows feature called Known Issue Rollback (KIR) that you would have to opt into using Group Policy, which might soon address an anticipated snafu like this, once it's become apparent after deployment:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-clien...

Here's last month's article from the same author giving an example of how KIR can be used to mitigate a video showstopper at the time:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-fi...

My follow-up consisted of following the journalist back, and that might give an idea about what he had in mind.

That's awesome. Both the feature and you leading by example.

Thank you!

Most popular OS on planet earth and they can't afford testing their software on popular CPUs

These execs and managers should be criminally charged

Are you sure it isn't only happening on unpopular CPUs? I couldn't see anything about which CPU makes/gens/models are affected in the article?
I agree with you. Except for criminal charge. There no complex, big, up-to-date and bug-free program in a world.
> Most popular OS on planet earth and they can't afford testing their software on popular CPUs

Testing is expensive. That's what users are for.

Just look at the SW made by MS and Google. It looks that they work only based on change requests. If the bugs are not rewritten, they are fixed only when there is a change request.

My experience with Windows 11 has been roughly bug free - but it’s not a pleasant place to be. Installing is a nightmare too with the online account requirement. You can circumvent with a shell but still annoying.

I’ve been much happier with Debian 12 and KDE for my primary workstation.

I can’t think of a compelling to use windows outside of gaming.

What edition of Windows 11 are you using? I hear this a lot about the online account requirement but on my versions (Pro and Enterprise) you just select “Domain Join” and it bypasses the online account requirement.

My guess is that a lot of people are using the crappy Home edition.

I'm confused by that as well. I've setup multiple machines this past year with Windows 11 and they are all just straight up local accounts.
> My guess is that a lot of people are using the crappy Home edition.

What makes Home crappy? Other than the account thing, obviously. You can't join a domain with it either, but then most people don't have a domain at home. There's some other disabled features, like Hyper-V, but why should people have to pay for a higher tier Windows to use a local account if they don't need the other features?

I want to say RDP is limited to higher trims. I don’t think you can Remote Desktop to home. But otherwise I agree with your points.
Yeah, that seems familiar, but RDP hosting seems like another feature many people can live without / can mostly replace with other software for ocassional use.
With Home:

you also don't have Bitlocker

no Group Policy

no Active Directory

- Hyper-V

- RDP

- Windows Sandbox (super neat and useful and under-appreciated!)

- BitLocker

- Active Directory

- Local accounts, apparently

- Various other little things and some local policies.

I use all of the above Pro-only stuff.

If my use of "crappy" offended you, please substitute the term "less-featureful".

Other than that, I didn't say what Microsoft should or shouldn't do for home users. That's on you.

It's my personal belief that multiple Windows 11 editions are insulting, and it should just be a single OS edition, with all features available, across the board.

I did three installs of Pro this year. Two of them required hacks to force local account creation because the motherboard (Asus) ships with a _literal rootkit_ that injects a wireless driver that Windows itself does not ship with. So you either have to disable that in firmware before first boot to Windows OOBE, or run the BypassNRO cmdlet from a hidden shell to convince it that you do not, in fact, have internet access.

I tried to domain join the third device to see what that flow is like. It asks:

1. Personal use / Work or School

2. You are asked to login to Azure AD. You have to click a small (10pt?) link for "Sign-in options." with no indication that will let you join to the domain.

3. Pick "Domain Join instead"

4. It asks you to setup a local account ("Even better, use an online account" :-)

5. _You finish setup without the device actually being joined to the domain!?_

6a. You now have to login (click)

6b. and go to the system settings (click)

6c. go to accounts (click, ad for M365),

6d. go to "Connect to work or school" (click),

6e. click another "Connect" button with no indication that it will join it to a domain,,

6f. Click another small link for "Join this device to a local Active Directory domain" to domain join the PC.

So, I'm sorry, but if you think the Pro SKU is better in this regard you are just incorrect. There is no excuse for these dark patterns, this is user-hostile behavior designed to convert you to being recurring SaaS revenue and not retail revenue.

As an added bonus I just tried to create a Windows 11 VM in hyper-v to confirm my memory, and _Microsoft Hyper-V_ doesn't even correctly configure itself to allow Windows installation to proceed by default. (Secure Boot enabled, but no vTPM.) It then proceeded to download updates to the installer and reboot without a prompt or any option to skip it. Microsoft _clearly does not give a shit_ about the OOBE if you are not using their cloud services.

> I can’t think of a compelling to use windows outside of gaming.

And thanks to Steam deck/proton, that gap is also decreasing significantly.

Windows definitely has regressed in terms of user experience and updates/upgrades and online integration are two big pain points that really make me miss Linux (Ubuntu or Arch+lxde, if you want names) every time I'm there.

> Installing is a nightmare too with the online account requirement.

My nightmare, before the account shenanigans, was finding a mouse for my HP laptop, whose trackpad didn't work OOB. Then, once I'd managed to go through the installation, the account thing was a PITA because the Intel wifi card wasn't supported, and this laptop doesn't have a wired network port. I was actually going to use an MS account (this is a work computer, and they're all in on MS). But I couldn't set it up without jumping through the hoops of creating a local account first and then grabbing the wifi drivers by booting Linux.

This happened mid-2023 with a 2020 model laptop. Also, HP recommends Windows. Arch Linux worked fully out of the box.

Ah, yes, Gates personally banned the drivers for this 2020 WiFi cards.

Or maybe it was Intel who did a bazillion of cards with a minor diffs and/or didn't ask MS to add this flavour to the default driver set, shipped with Windows install media?

I haven't used a device that Windows didn't ship drivers for In twenty years!
I recently had the (dis)pleasure to install Windows 10 on a Dell XPS laptop from 2018. The Windows installer had no drivers for the nvme controller _that is provided by the CPU itself_, so a platform controller.

Oh and getting the installer to recognize the drivers was much harder than the usual "stick the files on a thumb drive, plug to laptop, tell the installer". I had to generate a custom Windows ISO with the drivers preinstalled, for which the process is described by a single indian dude on a website very sparsely indexed by google.

Yep, just as I said in the previous comment: everyone is at fault but for sure it wasn't the vendor of the device! How the vendor could be the culprit in doing something what would cripple the boot/install of the OS? Nonsense!
The vendor? Ha! Let me laugh.

Would this have tripped on some obscure device specific to Dell laptops, sure, I would understand. (like their blimey fingerprint reader). But this is the standard NVMe controller on this generation of intel CPUs. The drivers are common for _most intel platforms_: the Intel Rapid Storage Technology.

As somebody else pointed out, Linux fares much better in this space. All devices are properly recognized out of the box, including this bog-standard NVMe controller.

> Intel Rapid Storage Technology.

This is a SATA AHCI/RAID controller. It has nothing to do with NVMe.

Also iRST was (and looks like still is) the most troublesome driver for Windows since it's introduction: there are bazillion of variants and vendor sub-variants with different VEN/DEV IDs, so it's CAN'T be identified by some generic driver!

And yes, it was (and from your description - is) the one stupid driver which couldn't be loaded at the running install, because for somegodfuckingreason it did shenanigans when loaded 'online' and Windows couldn't use it as the install destination.

This is not (and were not) a problem with any other SATA and SAS controller I ever encountered, from cheap-ass Silicon Image ones to $2000 LSI/HPE ones. Only Intel, only ICH/R.

There is no such thing as generic driver for a hundreds and thousands of variants of some vendor specific device if the vendor did not provided such driver.

Your loved Linux works there only because the kernel module which supports Intel ICH\R chipset (which provides iRST) has those bazillion of PCI VEN/DEV IDs assigned to it and this is why it works 'out of the box' on Linux kernel. Intel NEVER provided such driver for Windows and never would.

Eg: there is a thing called `HPE Smart Array SR Gen10`. It's a series of RAID controllers made by HPE.

Except `HPE Smart Array S100i SR Gen10 SW RAID`, aka S-class. Notice `SW` there? That's just a regular Intel ICH/R. You can manually install Intel ICH/iRST driver on that `HPE controller` and it would work, because it's just a regular Intel ICH/R. You know what wouldn't happen? Windows wouldn't install `the default` Intel ICH driver on it, because:

there is no such thing as `the default SATA` driver

there is no such thing as `the default Intel SATA` driver

all `Intel SATA` drivers built-in in Windows install media do have the PCI VEN/DEV IDs listed for INTEL (VEN8086), not HP/E, DELL, Lenovo or whoever.[0]

You can shit on Microsoft and Windows all you want, but the problem here is strictly with the vendor, Intel.

As soon as Intel would provide MS with the `default Intel SATA` driver what would have all VEN/DEV combos for all their licensed and white-labeled controllers - you would be able to install Windows client SKUs on all these controllers without slipstreaming the drivers in the install media.

Source: I know things, I lost too many hours of my life wrestlning with Intel ICH/R

[0] ffs, just open the .inf you slipstreamed and look for IDs there.

>> Intel Rapid Storage Technology. > This is a SATA AHCI/RAID controller. It has nothing to do with NVMe.

Yet it was somehow required to use the NVMe drive in this machine. This is braindead.

> This is not (and were not) a problem with any other SATA and SAS controller I ever encountered, from cheap-ass Silicon Image ones to $2000 LSI/HPE ones. Only Intel, only ICH/R.

Learnt this the hard way on a previous motherboard I had with two sata controller, the native Intel one, and an additional Marvell one. Sanity would encourage to use the intel one, except for all those friggin issues.

As for Linux, I know why it works :) But it always amazes me that this FOSS project can ship all those IDs, quirks and all, but not one of the largest company on the planet. What a time to live where Linux has less driver issues than Windows.

Thank you for all the details, I did not know iRST was such a hot mess. It's not that new, one would have guessed shit would have been figured out since. But no. Oh well...

Btw sorry for the tone, I thought by "vendor" you meant Dell and not Intel. They produce some of the worst driver I ever had to work with. Don't get me started on their drivers for the E810 line of datacenter network adapters.

Dell, HP, Lenovo are all MS vendors and work close with MS for their drivers (or so they say).

The issue here is that MS plays the smart guy and installs his own buggy stuff, making it hard for the end user to use vendor supplied drivers, even reinstalling its own stuff with Windows update.

Those are pretty standard Intel cards installed on laptops with Intel CPUs. ax201 or something. If "nothing-ever-works-without-fiddling" Linux is able to ship drivers for that card and work out of the box, I don't see why windows couldn't ship with drivers for that, especially since they seem to get updates via Windows update, so ms has them. Plus, if you're going to force people to use an internet account, maybe make sure that they'll actually be able to get online?

Or maybe the whole point of not supporting the touchpad was to weed off the faint of heart and send them off to Linux?

> Those are pretty standard Intel cards installed on laptops with Intel CPUs. ax201 or something

If they were 'pretty standard' then they would be in the default list of drivers shipped with install media.

If they weren't in the install media then:

your media is older than the drivers

your device isn't 'standard'

device vendor doesn't give a shit if you can reinstall Windows and get the working WiFi out of the box

> , I don't see why windows couldn't ship with drivers for that

Because Intel does not give a fuck. It's that simple and it is borderline ridiculous how linux fanboys can't accept what Windows has a completely different driver model compared to built-in-the-kernel way of Linux.

And again, where did you got your install media for Windows? Directly from https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows10 ? Somewhere else?

> Or maybe the whole point of not supporting the touchpad

Can you ask Synaptic (or whoever made that touchpad) why there is no drivers for their touchpad in the default Windows install media or why it's not just a simple HID pointing device? Or again that's Nadella's fault or whoever at the lead now?

Your combative behavior here is entirely unwarranted. The only person blaming random chief executives here is you. If the drivers work fine in a standard Linux install, it is obviously not some obscure hardware setup.
Repeat after me: Linux has a different driver model than Windows.

If you don't know why Linux-way doesn't work in Windows and you want to know - you can look at my sibling comment.

> Your combative behavior here is entirely unwarranted

What is really unwarranted is 'but it works in Linux1111' without thinking.

> If the drivers work fine in a standard Linux install

Ah, yes, work so good you need to disable RST completely to install Linux: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1233623/workaround-to-instal...

> And again, where did you got your install media for Windows? Directly from https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows10 ? Somewhere else?

Somewhere else: https://www.microsoft.com/fr-fr/software-download/windows11 This was Windows 11, downloaded in June 2023 or something like that. I always create a new USB drive when I reinstall.

> your media is older than the drivers

No it's not, see below.

> Because Intel does not give a fuck.

Fair enough. Then how come windows magically knows to install all those drivers, Wi-Fi and touchpad, if I plug in a USB network adapter, and it only connects to Windows update? This has worked ever since I bought the PC three years ago. So no, the devices "aren't brand new", intel didn't "just send them to MS yesterday" or "not at all". And if I manually install the drivers out of band by downloading them from intel's website, windows will still install its own over them, even when they are older.

(see the addendum)

> Somewhere else

Heh.

> Then how come windows magically knows to install all those drivers, Wi-Fi and touchpad, if I plug in a USB network adapter, and it only connects to Windows update

Because it asks WU about all PCI\VEN&DEV&SUBSYS&REV found in the system and WU responds with the specific drivers it has for these devices.

Remember, there is no 'generic' drivers in Windows, like in Linux.

> So no, the devices "aren't brand new", intel didn't "just send them to MS yesterday" or "not at all".

Well, yes.

Now the question why these aren't included in the OS. Don't have Win11 at hand (and probably wouldn't at least for some time, lol).

Back in the day MS gathered info about the most common devices at the market, to include them in the OS distro. So with a wireless chipset made in '19 the question is who to blame, vendor or OS mfg. Considering how hostile Intel to the customers I wouldn't be surprised it's them. BTW you can open Device Manager pretend to replace the driver, select 'I would select manually' and see all the drivers OS has. On your running system you would see those you installed too, but on a clean system you would see only bundled ones.

On my notebook I have a Realtek NIC, so the Intel drivers are the ones what was bundled with Win10 install media (and maaaybe some updates?) and I have there:

    Intel(R) Wi-Fi 6 AX101
    Intel(R) Wi-Fi 6 AX200 160MHz
    Intel(R) Wi-Fi 6 AX201 160MHz
So... can you post the PCI ID of your card? It wouldn't do a shit for you but maybe there is something there. It can be found in Device Manager, open the properties of the NIC, Details tab, Hardware Ids.

> I always create a new USB drive when I reinstall

Do you just download an .ISO or do you use the 'Installation Assistant'? There are some shenanigans with that tool.

> And if I manually install the drivers out of band by downloading them from intel's website, windows will still install its own over them, even when they are older

Or something had rotten in Seattle or somehow Windows bundled drivers are more specific ones than the ones from the vendor site.

I heard about that but I don't remember ever witnessing this myself. If anything, I needed to that manually, because Intel drivers for 'Intel(R) Wireless-N 7260' are so shitty what the ones bundled with Windows (with Intel copyright from 2011) are way more stable (but not stable enough, sigh) than ANY later revisions from the Intel site.

ADD:

Okay, for the sake of it: I've got my hands on Win11 and it DOES have some drivers for AX201: https://imgur.com/a/ozob6kM

So the question about the PCI ID of your card.

> Do you just download an .ISO or do you use the 'Installation Assistant'? There are some shenanigans with that tool.

I'm pretty sure Linux doesn't have "generic" wifi cards. See all the issues people have getting to work brand-new models. I had already seen the AX201 in a separate machine for some time before buying this laptop, so it wasn't brand-new when I first tried installing Windows. Didn't check the PCI IDs to confirm it was precisely the same, though.

I don't have that specific PC on hand to check the IDs right now.

For installing, I create the USB drive with the "media creation tool" I download right before from that site. I only use the direct ISO download to install on VMs, since my usual approach of writing it with dd from linux doesn't work for some reason.

I've noticed the driver reinstall issue because at one point, there was some kind of issue with my external monitor which worked with the Intel drivers but not with the Windows Update ones, and every so often the display output would break again until I manually reinstalled the ones from the Intel site. The Windows Update drivers have been fine for a few months now. Wi-Fi never had any issue once it got going after the first reboot and Windows update run.

Got my hands on the PC in question. The full string of the ID is PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_A0F0&SUBSYS_00748086&REV_20

Fun fact: if I look for drivers, in the "recommended drivers" list there are two drivers by Intel and one by Microsoft. https://i.imgur.com/jpghrgd.png

> I can’t think of a compelling to use windows outside of gaming.

- Office

- Adobe

- Ableton

- Visual Studio

[flagged]
Eh, they're both proprietary OSes. Maybe you're more used to the UI paradigms of one or the other, but other than that, I don't see a strong reason to prefer one or the other.

Also, I personally don't use any of these tools except Office, but I'm pretty sure classing developers as having psychological issues based on their language ecosystem choice is against HN guidelines.

Under the hood macOS is Unix though... so there is a lot to be said for that. I can run tools like sed, awk, grep right out of the box. As someone who is in a shell 24x7 on multiple remote linux servers it is nice to also have a very similar experience within my local desktop environment.
So then you just `wsl --install` and you get a proper Linux distribution. Also get the Windows Terminal from the store and you're off to the races.

I honestly consider this a better experience compared to Apple's BSD tools and lack of first-party package manager.

if you enjoy using windows, sure this is a perfectly valid option.
> So then you just `wsl --install` and you get a proper Linux distribution.

You mean `wsl --install` will install Slackware on my computer ? /s

>If I needed all of those tools for my daily workflow I’d be on macOS without hesitation.

And how do switch my existing PC from Windows to MacOS, without spending money to buy new proprietary HW in a locked-down unrepairable unupgradable ecosystem that comes with insane markups on RAM and storage?

At least Linux, works with what I already have and doesn't require me to spend money on proprietary HW and then spend more money on paid apps just to have some functioning window management out of the box. :drops mic:

Why not both? I own a handful of Mac machines, have a server rack in my basement loaded with R720s, and a 13900k beast Debian workstation on my desk. I'll occassionally rotate to my couch or a coffee shop and thanks to the wonders of SSH and wireguard I can access the rack and my workstation from anywhere while still having incredible all-day battery life (M2 Macbook Air). vscode+remote-ssh+tailscale is a killer combo.
>Why not both?

Because money. Owning a wide variety of premium HW, especially Apple, is a rare privileged wealthy western position. Most people on the planet own something in the ballpark of a ~$200 Lenovo/Acer as their main machine, so telling them to just buy an Apple and a 13th gen homelab, is like telling them "let them eat cake", especially that due to taxes and tariffs, HW in other countries often costs way more than in the US, despite much MUCH lower wages.

If you can afford a $1000 laptop, Apple is the way to go with an M1 Air (cheaper secondhand or with an education discount). If Apple hardware is unaffordable I would certainly opt for Linux.
>If you can afford a $1000 laptop, Apple is the way to go with an M1 Air

Thanks, but I'm contempt with my Ryzen laptop with double the ram and storage at half the price of an M1, as my main and only machine.

I have always had a soft spot for AMD. I have been meaning to build a Ryzen rig.
>>Visual Studio as a developer for Windows apps is a different story… but then you have much bigger psychological issues I’m untrained to diagnose.

WTF are you on about. Games development for PS5/Xbox and Switch only works on Windows, that's where the entire toolchain for these platforms is. It's not just windows apps. I love how so many people on HN like to pretend that Visual Studio isn't the most powerful IDE around, it's a powerhouse for developers and you'd need to pry it out of my cold dead hands.

I don't know a single dev who enjoys using Visual Studio. It's a necessary evil. Let's be real here.
Do you actually know any devs who use Visual Studio? I work in a studio of hundreds of people using VS, been here for nearly a decade, and I'm yet to find someone who thinks VS is anything other than great. Yes it has its issues, like any dev tool, but otherwise it's probably the best piece of software to have come out of Microsoft, as a C++ developer I cannot imagine using anything else, no other IDE comes anywhere near in terms of features and usability.
I'd also like to add that the Windows user experience is my "native language", if you will. I have no major problems using macOS, but I'm definitely not as fast using it, I find its window management cumbersome, and my muscle memory is constantly misfiring. I've been using Windows since childhood and there's something to be said for the level of familiarity and comfort that comes with that.

That being said, I'm terribly frustrated with the direction Microsoft is taking Windows and I hope to stay off of 11 for as long as I can.

I can't comment on Office, Adobe and Visual Studio, but for Ableton or any other DAW, I would certainly choose macOS over Windows. Audio runs much smoother on Mac than on Windows. Lower latency, less dropouts, better overall stability from my experience.

Too bad that audio is total joke on Linux. There's very good software, like BitWig and Reaper, but the audio subsystem is total mess doing random stuff all the time. PipeWire seems promising but there are still problems. Maybe one day.

The Windows Audio Stack had improvements in Win 10 for latency.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/a...

From personal experience, it definitely got better in Win10 but it is still not as consistently low-latency and stutter-free. I think there are just too many audio pipeline features (some of which are really quite nice and useful for non-music users) built into the OS to provide the same level of baseline performance, and each feature adds more obscure configuration gotchas.
I had to google Ableton.
>- Office

>- Adobe

>- Ableton

>- Visual Studio

Find alternative software. If those companies aren't compatible on Linux, use one that is.

Make sure you send them an email explaining why you are canceling your subscription.

That's really not an option for some industries. Mine, for example. When you're in a sufficiently niche market, you can't just "yay open source" your way out of the issue.
What industry? And not everything on Linux is open source. My 3D printer is proprietary stuff.
> > I can’t think of a compelling to use windows outside of gaming.

> - Office

In a corporate env maybe. Libreoffice is enough for home use.

> - Adobe

Only reader. For special pdfs.

> - Ableton

Never heard about it.

> - Visual Studio

What's wrong with vim ?

> - Ableton

- Visual Studio

Why would someone use both in a corporate env ?

It’s somewhat ironic that Windows users used to call Macs “toy computers”. Now most deeply technical people are using Macs or at least Linux or BSD and Windows is relegated to games. It seems Windows is for toy computers ;-)
I don't know any technical people who use Macs with OSX still installed.

They all gave up on that trainwreck of an OS, and either their final Mac died and they replaced it with an even better laptop by a different vendor (Framework, et al), or they still own a Mac but it now runs Windows or Linux (and when that one dies, it will be their last, and they will become post-Mac, too). I know exceptionally few tech people with M1, and they bought it knowing they had to suffer the rough edges of Asahi; I do not know a single tech person who bought an M1 and left OSX on it.

The number of Macs in existence only goes down, not up; doubly so in the tech world.

I don't get why theres a few people on HN that persist in the FUD+FOMO combo that OSX is gonna make a comeback and win because "its a Unix!" and "Apple takes security seriously!" and "Safari is world's best browser!" and "Swift is a great language to code in, even if it doesn't work on other OSes!" and "I use XCode unironically!"

Just stop already, we've all heard it. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

What the heck are you on about? This is patently false. I've been using Mac hardware professionally since 05 in a ton of different environments. We very rarely had issues. Apple makes the best laptops in the world, nothing else comes remotely close.
well that's just like your opinion man
aluminum chassis master race.
Which to me makes very little sense in a "laptop". It's pretty good at helping the device stay cool, but you will regret wearing shorts should your processor or GPU really need to get work done, should you actually have it on your lap.
Haven't found this to be true at all, what I do see is osx users not realizing they have problems or simply pretending it never happened.
Examples? I've been CTO at multiple companies (+ managing IT rollout) including a defense contractor who relies heavily on MS infrastructure. At the end of the day Apple has always been the most pain free shit periodt. It literally just works.

I've gone so far as to deploy M1 Mini's in factory environments to run production processes for very large scale printing operations (think Amazon, Walgreens, tons of orders daily) and guess what I haven't been called in over a year because it is all rock solid.

Battery aside apple laptops are rather lame.
Battery's a pretty big fucking deal on a laptop tho.
Good news, the laptops with the longest battery life aren't Macs.

Better news, installing Windows on Intel Macs improves battery life under common use cases.

Best news, Linux on that same Mac is even longer.

Hilariously, as much as Chromebooks suck, there are many Chromebooks that have half the Wh of M1/M2 99Wh Macbooks, cost half as much, and meet or exceed battery life under common tasks (implying they're both twice as efficient per watt, and twice as efficient per dollar). These Chromebooks can run Linux, and aren't stuck with ChromeOS.... so if you're really into ultra-thin laptops with excessive battery life, well, they're an option.

I also semi-recently saw a review for the LG Gram 17, an Intel laptop that has 3/4th the Wh of Macbooks, yet has the same battery life in common tasks, and a 17 inch (!) screen; costs about the same as a Macbook. So, even with the Intel CPU holding it back, its keeping up with those Macs.

So yeah, Apple hasn't kept up with the battery life game at all, another myth cranked out by the FUD+FOMO Apple PR machine.

I always notice it during conferences since Keynote is great at making slides :)
OS X is a just a fancy bootloader for Aqua.
Are all those technical people Linux kernel hackers? Maybe even just hackers, running a some BSD OS.

You should realize “I don’t know people who do X” is a very weak argument.

Windows runs the largest of enterprises. Very few go without at least Active Directory.
Fortunately the enterprise IT seems to be slowly waking up to the realization that AD is just LDAP wrapped in a thick layer of (very expensive) Microsoft epoxy and glue.

OSS is alive and well in the enterprise!

AD is LDAP+Kerberos+mgmt tooling+integrated DNS/DHCP+replication svcs

Only Samba implements part of the above. OSS has a way to go, yet.

To be clear, AD never has, never was, and is incapable of being “just LDAP”.

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First off, it's primarily kerberos with LDAP frosting. Kerberos is what makes the AD world go round and for much of what happens in windows its purely resting on tickets and the PAC, not LDAP queries. Second, there's a lot of special bits that others do not replicate.

For instance shadow rights / MIM / PAM does not to my knowledge have an OSS equivalent.

Windows Hello for Business is the only moderately secure take on biometric auth into kerberos that I have heard of.

LAPS is the only secure, native LDAP take I have heard for managing root passwords, which fills a big compliance need for a lot of orgs.

And there is quite a lot about GPO that works wonderfully when paired with sssd, e.g. access control.

> Windows is relegated to games.

Unless you absolutely must play ea games then even that can be done on linux rather nicely.

Or, we're in an echo chamber where the vast majority of Windows users are not on HN. :)
What keeps me trapped using Windows on my main home workstation is simply that a lot of the professional software I use is Windows-only, and always will be.

Fortunately, the advancements in Proton and better cross-platform support for a lot of software has let me use Linux on my gaming computer and notebook. There are a few games which I can't play, but honestly there's so many options available that I don't miss them much. I don't think I'll ever completely eliminate Windows from my life, I think around 2021 was The Year Of Linux On The Desktop for me.

I think people might need to put the pitchforks down. It's a preview release, and we have 0 information on the systems in question. You can easily avoid the issue by not participating in the early release program.

Finding issues like this is literally why the preview program exists. Should they have caught this with internal testing? Maybe, we don't have enough information to know.

Agreed, vitriol not required.

Still, Microsoft gutted their internal testing, so they hold some blame for disastrous failure, even during preview.

It's always puzzled me how much <insert appropriate epithet here> people are willing to take from Microsoft for products they pay good money for, without ever considering that there might be an world where not everyone buys their software from the same vendor.
Almost nobody buys Windows though. The vast majority of users get given a laptop with windows on it from work, where the robust AD system is pretty great, though O365 is a letdown in a lot of ways, and the rest get Windows pre-installed on their laptops from the store, where microsoft gives OEMs a sick deal.

The only people who "buy" Windows are those who build their own gaming machine. Even then, they usually buy a sketchy "volume license" key off ebay.

I bought windows retail, because I actually like the Windows kernel, and despise running pretty much any install of Linux that isn't just a command line to boot daemons and web servers from. I use my computer every single goddamn day, and don't ever want it to randomly break, which Linux has always done to me. The steam deck is the first Linux install that hasn't been utterly useless or shit the bed on me.

Every single problem I have had in Windows has been caused by shitty hardware, or AMDs abysmal drivers.

Thats kind of not true, someone bought windows(and not as cheap as people think) it's just that nobody really sees it as something different from the computer because it's bundled.

Enterprises pay a surprising amount of money to Microsoft usually in the form of monthly/annual pr user licenses(to the time of double digit percentages of the end user device budget) and yet no amount of badness seem to make anyone in those Enterprise departments think that they have any alternative and it's the same in the laptop space, where despite having to fork out whats often a double digit percentage of the retail price to Microsoft there is no serious appetite from hardware vendors or consumers to consider that maybe we could have a market where multiple Operating systems coexisted.

And your driver argument is exactly the weirdness here as people will absolutely hold anyone but Microsoft(especially smaller opensource competitors) responsible for bad drivers but with windows it's suddenly an valid excuse for bad experiences with windows.

I'm torn on this.

I'm really happy with where MS is going, I think they have been killing it with vs code, chatgpt integration, and I was quite bullish on the surface pros.

But after having owned one for 1 month, they were still a real disaster in the OS area. I "subscribed" to the preview track, and had to reformat my pc twice. It was a fricking disaster. I'm back on osx now, having sold the surface pro.

Hardware and OS is still very much their weakpoint imo. It's like the whole OS is designed by product owners working on macbook pros (which apparantly isn't far from the truth)

I've sworn off Windows as an OS after multiple dealbreakers: advertisements in the OS, and hard reboots with no warning.

I understand there are workarounds - such as buying a non-personal Windows license, and fiddling with the registry - but that's like selling me a car that'll shut its engine off on the highway and force me to listen to its own advertisements while I'm using a bluetooth device, and assuring me that I can adjust the behavior. If I know how. If I even know that's possible. If I'm willing to pay more.

Yeah, running insiders and seeing an advert in the start menu search was the final straw for me. I've used it for work a couple times, but mostly choose Mac, only because the corp apple experience isn't as bad as corp Windows can get.
> I "subscribed" to the preview track, and had to reformat my pc twice.

"I subscribed to test betas and they were unstable. Thanks Bill Gates!"

I ran insiders since later windows 8.1 updates... I had to reinstall a couple times, when the win11 went full release (didn't have secure boot and tpm enabled and it broke itself) and there was another bug a few months later. What really irked me into leaving was that someone thought it was cool to show literal ads in the start menu search results. Insiders or not, that's something that is just wrong. I changed my default boot to my linux drive and haven't looked back on my personal desktop.
Yeah, I also don't get how people voluntarily choose to use a beta OS, and then complain that it broke.

Like, my brother in Christ, that's why there's the stable version of that OS.

Because (i wish i was joking) Windows is a beta OS with the exception of some specific Service Packs. NT was stable only with SP6. 2000 only with the last SP when they discontinued development. Same for XP and 7 only the last SP was stable. I skipped Vista and 8, but 10 is a rolling release. Nothing is stable, everything is a moving target.
Funny, I never had OS issues with stability and been using Windows since 95. Had issue with other things.

What stability issues are you referring exactly?

Yeah this is the sarcastic take, but MS pushes people to get onto the insider preview to enable certain features. My surface pro wouldn't sleep properly, and only the "insider preview" would fix that for instance.

There is a difference between having a few apps crash more often, and literally having the offical MS help tell you, the only solution is to reinstall everything.

This being the case on MS's own hardware is actually ridiculous.

And unsurprising.

> MS help tell you, the only solution is to reinstall everything.

They finally found out what everybody knew since Win 95 days: There is no problem in Windows(TM) that a complete reinstall cannot fix. /s

> I "subscribed" to the preview track, and had to reformat my pc twice. It was a fricking disaster. I'm back on osx

Are you tracking the pre-release versions of MacOS?

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Indeed no pitchforks, but I can see where some concern has come from. On the release of Windows 11 it was stated that only newer Intel and AMD generations were to be officially supported and while workarounds are built in (literally a registry flag in the installer) to install on even a Pentium 4 [1], they came with a warning from Microsoft that installations in such environments "may not receive updates".

Is it therefore possible that this bug check is being implemented as part of the journey towards actually dropping "support" for these CPUs?

Indeed, it's a preview release, and the Insider program is amazing for getting insight into Windows development and it shouldn't be held up to the same level of journalistic scrutiny as a sanctioned general release, but I can absolutely see why this particular change may have raised some eyebrows.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivrlU73VcHw

I was on insiders for years, switched for WSL1... I switched over to using Linux as my personal desktop OS when I first say ad results in the Windows start menu search. It may have been preview, but was just one thing too far that someone would even consider it. I still have a windows drive in my desktop, I only booted into it once a few months ago to update my ssd/nvme firmware (samsung bugfix).
> Is it therefore possible that this bug check is being implemented as part of the journey towards actually dropping "support" for these CPUs?

That seems entirely possible. That being said, I'm not sure I'm going to be upset about them dropping support for a 20-year old CPU built on an architecture that I think is pretty widely accepted as a failure.

> I'm not sure I'm going to be upset about them dropping support for a 20-year old CPU

Windows 11 doesn’t support CPUs that are 6 years old (Intel 7th gen) that are still ok by today standards

The Pentium 4 is an extreme example, and I admit I used it quite dishonestly to over-emphasise the fact that Windows 11 runs on CPUs that it claims not to support.

A 7th or 6th gen Intel would run Windows 11 quite well, unlike a Pentium 4 which struggles a great deal with it. Despite that, without workarounds, you cannot install Win 11 on one of these CPUs. You must have an 8th gen or later.

The two I saw on Reddit having this bsod were on 13th gen Intel so I'm not sure but I'd guess some issue handling p and e core transitions is causing the problem.
I see the buggy 'preview' updates offered on all my Windows 10 and 11 machines, and none of them are signed up for Insider
Preview means preview. It doesn't automatically download and install.

You have to actually opt in and download the preview. Then you'll be part of the preview :-)

10 does state "Optional" but 11 doesn't (although there is an x to dismiss it)

These always struck me as an odd middle ground between regular updates and Insider

fwiw my very 'unsupported' 11 Dell box seems okay with this update installed. All the Reddit folks getting the error are on Intel MSI boards

The problem is that they're not meeting their own baseline standard. ~10 years ago, MS didn't frequently make these kinds of issues even in the early release program. I suspect something's broken in their Windows org.
>I think people might need to put the pitchforks down. It's a preview release, and we have 0 information on the systems in question.

Yeah, but making this info clear in the title doesn't drive the pitchfork driven clickbait FUD that seems to be invading HN lately.

Nearly half of Windows 11 related topics I read here lately were mistakenly titled or factually wrong, and yet full of rage comments of people who haven't even read the article, or don't even use Windows, but came by to tell everyone they use Arch or MacOS.

>drive the pitchfork driven clickbait FUD that seems to be invading HN lately.

This isn't "lately", HN has been this way since at least 2017 when I started reading. If you didn't notice it, that's on you. Almost nobody has ever read the articles on HN.

I think if you manually hit widows update, you get the preview updates. no extra opt in
>the August 2023 preview updates

I don't understand what the point of preview updates are if MS says they're not beta updates.

Is it just a place for say corporate IT to test to decide if they want to do the next monthly update?

Just noticed the article showing the "Recreate my problem" and "Start Collecting" feature...

That feature is sending an insanely large amount of personal data to Microsoft, and it's horribly irresponsible to include this feature as it is.

Windows, Office and Teams are so weirdly unpleasant to use. It's hard for me to put my finger on it - it's a mix of ugly UI, bad UX and general bugginess.
I can't agree about Office and Windows tho. They still have quirks, and I definitely can put finger (a lot of fingers actually) at points that stupid and I can't stand, but in general I like working with Office and Windows. I tried Open Office, Libre Office, few Linux distibutives, but return to Windows everytime.
Have you tried google docs? The cooperative editing and commenting feels much more robust than what office 365 is doing.

The default new tab on bing is a bunch of trashy news. It’s just icky.

I was aghast that you cannot move the taskbar. Now I am forced to keep it in the least optimal orientation. On my employer-provided system that is. No way is that dumpster fire of privacy invading, 80% baked UX, nonsense getting anywhere near my own devices.
Windows XP - Windows 7 for many years.

Then I turned to the dark side and bought a used cheese grater Mac Pro (dual CPU Xeon) for a few years before and I always found OSX weird - dropping to command line on occasion to get things done and definitely not very friendly but tolerated it for the sake of the hardware.

When I started the SAP part of my career, I got a Windows 7 laptop for SAPGUI and realized it was nicer - the Mac Pro went to a new home after I had to hack the boot firmware to install Sierra and realized the bells was tolling on the hardware.

Could not afford a Mac Pro replacement so I bought a Dell - A decent specced Mac Studio M2 (64GB) would cost me more than my car is worth.

The website linked here (an advertiser) just requested to run a custom URL handler (launch something outside of chrome). Most sus thing I've come across in a while