The issue with styrofoam (polystyrene) is that it leads to microplastics that have been found in human blood.
> The scientists analysed blood samples from 22 anonymous donors, all healthy adults and found plastic particles in 17. Half the samples contained PET plastic, which is commonly used in drinks bottles, while a third contained polystyrene, used for packaging food and other products. A quarter of the blood samples contained polyethylene, from which plastic carrier bags are made.
Pretty sure wax coatings aren't going to work for a hot cup. Have you ever accidentally put a hot drink into a cold cup (those cold cups that are wax coated)? You're left with a droopy mess of melted wax.
years ago hot-cups were indeed wax coated, but they were generally double-walled paper.
And yeah, you are right, a very hot cup of coffee when left to sit would 'precipitate' some floating wax islands atop the surface; but I think it was just presumed that the wax source (beeswax, whatever) was safe to eat.
the worst thing was when you'd forget your hot cup of coffee until the next day somewhere, by which point the wax was off the paper and the liquid was out of the cup.
Likewise with aluminum cans, whose insides are coated with an epoxy liner containing BPA. Good news, it isn't a hot beverage; bad news, carbonated water is acidic.
That's parent's point: if aluminium were resistant to (weak) acids, or carbonated drinks weren't acidic, there would be no need for a plastic liner inside aluminium can (and thus no BPA-present-or-not issue).
I recall long ago seeing some odd-looking little plastic cups sitting around, and asking my mom what they were. She said you'd put your coffee in a paper cup, and then set the paper cup inside the plastic holder to sort of maintain integrity.
Were the paper inserts used for those also impregnated with nasty junk? I'm unable to figure out the right search terms to find what these paper+plastic combos were called.
edit: apparently they were "cozy cups" made by Solo among others, and the inserts were plastic so my question is moot.
This article begins by describing the experiment and “results” being that “something is leeching out from the paper cups too” but then the scientists say, “but we don’t know what since we didn’t analyze the water, which we could do.
Kind of disappointing that the only “results” were that the midge larvae, in this trial setup, behaved the same as they did when exposed to just pure plastic cups leeching into their water.
I suspect that the only pizza boxes that strictly need it are the largest size boxes which are considerably rarer in the UK. For instance the largest size pizza at domino’s uk is 14.5 inches in diameter compared to 16 inches in their US locations. I also think that the corporate chains that are pretty popular here in the uk have reinforced boxes with corners that fold in.
As a coffee house owner and someone who looks to do things sustainably and efficiently, it has long been know that paper cups — even compostable ones — are a problem.
But it is all has to be considered relative to the other options. I generally think paper is better the other disposable options. But I will certainly review any new research
Of course, the best for the environment and quality of the beverage is reusable ceramic cups.
And no coffee shop these days wants to use your cup because they're worried about whether it's clean and they don't want to touch any of their coffee making tools to your cup accidentally and contaminate them. Would it be hygienically safe and environmentally good to have the coffee shop make things in a ceramic cup and let you use that ceramic cup, and if you're leaving, you can pour from that ceramic cup to your ceramic cup. That seems like a big pain though. Doesn't work for drive-thru.
The answer there IMO would be to use stainless steel preparation containers and then transfer to customer owned ceramic mugs. If the customers ceramic mug is disgusting, then refuse service.
At the place I go, they make everything in a metal container and then pour it into my thermos on the counter. It's up to me to handle the lid.
Also not to get too deep into the weeds on environmentalism but you all know the line reduce/reuse/recycle? the two first Rs it seems like we as a society have decided to just overlook. I've been using the same thermos for 10 years and I guarantee that in terms of footprint my thermos is doing better than literally any disposable solution you can come up with. People are wasting SO MUCH material, time, and money trying to sustain disposability when a real solution is on the shelf at every retailer right now ready to go.
I’m not sure about paper cups but I know the numbers for plastic bags vs textile bags is something like you have to use the textile bag /several years/ for the emissions to even out. Let alone making any positive impact.
despite that, my canvas bags will never be blowing around in the wind or getting eaten by animals. If they do somehow get lost, they can just be washed by whoever finds them. At some point we can reach peak canvasbag and simply stop making them completely.
People like to point at 'emissions' because they look sexy on a spreadsheet, but there is more to the world than just that.
Plastic bags certainly have their issues, but I don’t think that a textile bags won’t tangle and kill marine life and wreak havoc in new and unique ways.
When's the last time you saw a durable textile bag hanging in a tree? Washed up on a shoreline? Stuffed with trash, ripped up by rats, birds or cats, next to a rubbish bin?
Now same questions for a 'single' use plastic bag.
About as often as I have seen them be used, I would say. People also don't throw trash in their textile bags, they use plastic bags for that as they are disposable, so this creates a pretty clear selection bias.
There are zillions of good, used, reusable bags and cups already made, emissions and other pollution already committed, available at thrift stores and garage sales.
That's okay. Make things well enough and they can last for decades or centuries, depending on the item. I have canvas bags, from ~every food co-op I've frequented over the last two decades, that I regularly use for shopping and library books. One strap broke on one bag a few years ago and it's in the to-repair bin for now. When one finally breaks down beyond my repair skills I'll use it for patches and/or put in in the organic scrap cloth recycling stream.
A coffee shop I go to allows you to purchase a glass to-go in store (with some silicone wrapping on the outside to not burn your hands). I quite like the idea.
I worked at a Dunkin Donuts when I was 16 and this is what we did (and does work for drive through). However instead of a ceramic cup we used a normal plastic cup to mix the drink, then poured it into the customers cup. If it was just black coffee then we could pour straight into someones mug. A ceramic cup would be better (because we threw away the plastic cup after pouring). I’m struggling to recall if any drink except the chai tea could be entirely mixed inside the metal cups which are used on the steam wand. I’m not sure if the SOPs have changed in the past 7 years.
Customer provided stainless steel is the ideal, IMO. Glass also, if someone can make a glass container that's not hot to the touch and doesn't shatter on the go, and that isn't enormous.
And as for the increased energy required to create and clean these stainless steel and glass containers, the goal should be that this soon becomes a "who cares" problem as we fully transition to renewable energy and storage. Admittedly, "soon" very much seems to be a material possibility, but a political impossibility. And of course there is always opportunity cost when deciding how to divvy out grid capacity, so I am smoothing over some of the complexities of the issue here, but I don't think unreasonably so.
>And no coffee shop these days wants to use your cup because they're worried about whether it's clean and they don't want to touch any of their coffee making tools to your cup accidentally and contaminate them.
Not true everywhere. Where I live now in EU, at my fav hipster coffeeshop they definitely let you bring your own to-go reusable glassware (basically jars with screw-on caps) where they pour your finished coffee drink, and I think in some hipster Berlin coffee shops as well where they push for the environmentalist friendly mentality.
I've noticed in some cases America(the US) tends to be way more hypochondriac than necessary, for some reason. Probably because how easy you can get sued.
U.S. is very litigious. In high school I dreamed of being an entrepreneur. I still have that dream it's just wow the reality of the cost of doing business is brutal and disenchanting.
I’m sorry to say that if the mere possibility of a lawsuit is stopping someone from pursuing a dream, they weren’t that serious about it. Either that, or they’re greatly exaggerating the threat of lawsuits in their mind.
It’s not just a United States problem. I’ve worked with several startups in the EU and other countries where founders were jealous of our business freedoms in the United States. The very idea that you can start a business, have it fail, and not be financially ruined for decades or the rest of your life in the United States is a foreign concept to many.
Oh, I meant that the cost of business includes all the overhead of compliance, insurance, and legal retainers.
I'm not exactly complaining. I'm still trying to start a business :P. It's just the purity of "making a better product" is gone. You have to do it within the law and compete with incumbent that have influenced that law in their favor after having maybe broken it at first.
I'n not completely cynical. Just disenchanted!
Pedantic edit: "we have it better in the U.S" means it's worse elsewhere, not that the U.S. is "good". Just saying. I do agree that the possibility of even starting business is very good in the U.S.
aside: I hang out at local spots a lot. On a regular cadence the owners mention they're being sued for ADA (Am. disabilities Act) violations. The law is good. But the thing is the law firms spray the notices to spook people into settling. It's just the cost of doing business. Even and especially the cognitive-drain cost.
> I've noticed America tends to be way more hypochondriac than average for some reason
That’s funny, I had the opposite impression after my various EU business trips over the years. Our colleagues were shocked that we could just touch the fruit and vegetables at a store without gloves. We were surprised to go to stores there and see fruits individually wrapped in unnecessary packaging.
Where in the EU was this? I don't think I've seen individually wrapped fruits be the standard for any of the 5-10 european countries I've been to (or the one I'm living in).
Certain things are wrapped (primarily cucumbers and similar), but that is just for more perishable things shipped in from the other side of the world and is for shelf life, not hygenics.
>That’s funny, I had the opposite impression after my various EU business trips over the years.
Depends where. I've noticed certain Scandinavian countries like Finland take public hygiene to the next level, but in central Europe like France, Germany, Austria, Czechia, etc. it's more socially accepted to casually share germs and not shower too often.
The shop I go to offers a 50¢ discount to people who bring their own coffee cup. It's not that hard from a hygiene perspective: they have the cashier (who is already handling "dirty" money) walk over and fill the cup.
(I drink black coffee so I don't know if that applies to the specialty drinks; those are made by someone else.)
I bring my own thermos to my daily drive-through coffee stand, and they make my drink in their own glass container, then pour it into my thermos. That works very well and doesn't slow anything down.
There is this scene in countless movies, where a waitress comes up to a customer, and refills their cup from a coffee pot. No germs transferred from customers' cup to coffee pot.
How would modern take be any different? Because waitress has to pick up customers' cup? Then let customer place it under whatever machine it needs placing. And pick up when done.
This just businesses being lazy, regulatory red tape, or fear of litigation. NOT a real-world problem.
Yes there's situations where "bring your own cup" simply isn't practical. But where it is, businesses (and government!) should embrace that.
Not true. During the pandemic when I went to Starbucks in the US, they will use my cup, but wouldn't "touch" it. They would ask me to open the cup (and I will hold the lid) and they would use something to hold my cup and then pour drink into it.
I’d be happy if coffee shops were required to have mugs for use within the shop. Most of the shops near me offer paper cups regardless of whether you plan to stay in.
Imagine scenarios where someone might not be able to make their own coffee (or not easily), and also the many people who can't be bothered to do it themselves.
I'm sympathetic to your view, as I'd either make my own at home or use instant in cold water (like I would camping) if I ever drink coffee again (another flip response might be "just don't drink coffee"). On a road trip, though, my spouse needs her coffee, and so she brings in her insulated mug or uses whatever cup they have if we're driving through. As seldom as we road trip, the impact is small and I'd rather lobby for the big-impact stuff, like vehicle miles, heating buildings, industrial pollution and energy conversion, and how much land we've converted to grow food-animals and mono-cultured crops on. These are too big to comprehend, so we pick at each other about straws instead of engaging in politics and governance.
Exposed to microplastics in my water (plastic degrading in sea/lakes/water reservoirs), food (fish, beef, chicken), and air (car tire micro plastics mixing with air).
I'm wondering what part of human nature makes these things possible.
Why are we bamboozled by things that, if we don't think deeply, kinda feel they'll work, but we'll never invest any interest into seeing they actually work or not.
Does it all boil down to signalling? Is it necessary just to emit enough signal to show others how aware and virtuous we are?
This extends to other things, like the whole green foods, green energy, recent pandemic. So many things seem to just be theatrical in nature, no substance whatsoever.
I foresee a future when this view from above gets popular, and people will gather around the signal of "but actually this is known not to work", and people will start to be blind of anything else but these new waves of observations, but fundamentally we'll be in the same kind of game.
I still feel like this banning of plastic cups and straws is an attempt to make me feel guilty for using it. Just like "personal carbon footprint"; trying to blame the climate crisis on regular people.
All the while large companies and a few large boats in international waters are doing the actual polluting.
I don't want to feel guilty anymore and not be able to act upon it.
69 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 157 ms ] threadHot water plus a plastic inner surface equals leeching.
And styrofoam.
> The scientists analysed blood samples from 22 anonymous donors, all healthy adults and found plastic particles in 17. Half the samples contained PET plastic, which is commonly used in drinks bottles, while a third contained polystyrene, used for packaging food and other products. A quarter of the blood samples contained polyethylene, from which plastic carrier bags are made.
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/24/micropla...
And yeah, you are right, a very hot cup of coffee when left to sit would 'precipitate' some floating wax islands atop the surface; but I think it was just presumed that the wax source (beeswax, whatever) was safe to eat.
the worst thing was when you'd forget your hot cup of coffee until the next day somewhere, by which point the wax was off the paper and the liquid was out of the cup.
Is this a relevant factor? Presumably plastic was chosen because it's resistant to acid.
Were the paper inserts used for those also impregnated with nasty junk? I'm unable to figure out the right search terms to find what these paper+plastic combos were called.
edit: apparently they were "cozy cups" made by Solo among others, and the inserts were plastic so my question is moot.
Kind of disappointing that the only “results” were that the midge larvae, in this trial setup, behaved the same as they did when exposed to just pure plastic cups leeching into their water.
edit: enamel and ceramic are safe as long as they aren't chipped. enamel is metal under the coating and ceramic is porous.
Or is the little plastic ottoman they put in the center slowly killing me?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_saver
I've have never had such a thing, nor do my pizzas sag. Perhaps UK boxes are tougher?
At the end of the day, we're not giving up on drinks and at some point we'll need to accept one of the toxic solutions. But never stop searching!
It’s chemically inert, doesn’t corrode, etc etc.
Glass is also great imo and also extremely chemically inert (except that, of course, it can shatter if dropped, but that’s a whole other thing)
Obviously glazed cups (with not shitty glaze, but that’s a whole Other thing) are standard, and so on
We have options! Just not, uhh, single use ones
But it is all has to be considered relative to the other options. I generally think paper is better the other disposable options. But I will certainly review any new research
Of course, the best for the environment and quality of the beverage is reusable ceramic cups.
Starbucks does this en masse if I recall correctly as they encourage people to bring their own cups, even offering a small discount
Also not to get too deep into the weeds on environmentalism but you all know the line reduce/reuse/recycle? the two first Rs it seems like we as a society have decided to just overlook. I've been using the same thermos for 10 years and I guarantee that in terms of footprint my thermos is doing better than literally any disposable solution you can come up with. People are wasting SO MUCH material, time, and money trying to sustain disposability when a real solution is on the shelf at every retailer right now ready to go.
People like to point at 'emissions' because they look sexy on a spreadsheet, but there is more to the world than just that.
Now same questions for a 'single' use plastic bag.
And as for the increased energy required to create and clean these stainless steel and glass containers, the goal should be that this soon becomes a "who cares" problem as we fully transition to renewable energy and storage. Admittedly, "soon" very much seems to be a material possibility, but a political impossibility. And of course there is always opportunity cost when deciding how to divvy out grid capacity, so I am smoothing over some of the complexities of the issue here, but I don't think unreasonably so.
Not true everywhere. Where I live now in EU, at my fav hipster coffeeshop they definitely let you bring your own to-go reusable glassware (basically jars with screw-on caps) where they pour your finished coffee drink, and I think in some hipster Berlin coffee shops as well where they push for the environmentalist friendly mentality.
I've noticed in some cases America(the US) tends to be way more hypochondriac than necessary, for some reason. Probably because how easy you can get sued.
It’s not just a United States problem. I’ve worked with several startups in the EU and other countries where founders were jealous of our business freedoms in the United States. The very idea that you can start a business, have it fail, and not be financially ruined for decades or the rest of your life in the United States is a foreign concept to many.
We have it good in the US.
I'm not exactly complaining. I'm still trying to start a business :P. It's just the purity of "making a better product" is gone. You have to do it within the law and compete with incumbent that have influenced that law in their favor after having maybe broken it at first.
I'n not completely cynical. Just disenchanted!
Pedantic edit: "we have it better in the U.S" means it's worse elsewhere, not that the U.S. is "good". Just saying. I do agree that the possibility of even starting business is very good in the U.S.
aside: I hang out at local spots a lot. On a regular cadence the owners mention they're being sued for ADA (Am. disabilities Act) violations. The law is good. But the thing is the law firms spray the notices to spook people into settling. It's just the cost of doing business. Even and especially the cognitive-drain cost.
That’s funny, I had the opposite impression after my various EU business trips over the years. Our colleagues were shocked that we could just touch the fruit and vegetables at a store without gloves. We were surprised to go to stores there and see fruits individually wrapped in unnecessary packaging.
Certain things are wrapped (primarily cucumbers and similar), but that is just for more perishable things shipped in from the other side of the world and is for shelf life, not hygenics.
Depends where. I've noticed certain Scandinavian countries like Finland take public hygiene to the next level, but in central Europe like France, Germany, Austria, Czechia, etc. it's more socially accepted to casually share germs and not shower too often.
(I drink black coffee so I don't know if that applies to the specialty drinks; those are made by someone else.)
> drive-thru
So which one?
There is this scene in countless movies, where a waitress comes up to a customer, and refills their cup from a coffee pot. No germs transferred from customers' cup to coffee pot.
How would modern take be any different? Because waitress has to pick up customers' cup? Then let customer place it under whatever machine it needs placing. And pick up when done.
This just businesses being lazy, regulatory red tape, or fear of litigation. NOT a real-world problem.
Yes there's situations where "bring your own cup" simply isn't practical. But where it is, businesses (and government!) should embrace that.
I wonder how much it would cost society to build a hierarchical "ingredients database" for all products, or at least products that contact food.
I'm sympathetic to your view, as I'd either make my own at home or use instant in cold water (like I would camping) if I ever drink coffee again (another flip response might be "just don't drink coffee"). On a road trip, though, my spouse needs her coffee, and so she brings in her insulated mug or uses whatever cup they have if we're driving through. As seldom as we road trip, the impact is small and I'd rather lobby for the big-impact stuff, like vehicle miles, heating buildings, industrial pollution and energy conversion, and how much land we've converted to grow food-animals and mono-cultured crops on. These are too big to comprehend, so we pick at each other about straws instead of engaging in politics and governance.
Buy hey, what would we do without clickbaits?
https://x.com/doener/status/1677643692897710080?s=46
It reads:
"I am beautiful.
Because I can become a book."
Paper cups are just as toxic as plastic cups - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37259619 - Aug 2023 (87 comments)
Now it’s in my coffee. Fuck this plastic planet.
All the while large companies and a few large boats in international waters are doing the actual polluting.
I don't want to feel guilty anymore and not be able to act upon it.