Whether you lease or buy, don't settle for anything less than a full complement of planets, dwarf planets, asteroids, meteors, and comets. You should also have it inspected first. You want to be sure it will last and won't get sucked into a supermassive blackhole.
I was debating getting a rooftop solar system, but then I had some interactions with the door-to-door sales people pushing these installs.
It quickly became clear to me that there was a strong disconnect between the "acquire business" and "fulfill obligations" aspects of these operations.
I don't think a single one of the installers in my area would look at my situation and say "nah I wouldn't put panels on your roof - not worth it. Please keep your money".
Exactly! It's like ads on TV. It's like a catalog for the highest margin products. Also often for products that can hack us through instinctive reactions (appeal to status: cars/makeup, fear: insurance, etc)
Yeah, can confirm, don’t do it. Ours is performing as intended but only after months and months of bullshit and having to get half our roof redone (which they paid for, but god that was annoying) because they messed it up horribly on initial install.
I’m never doing rooftop again, and if I do solar, it’ll be ground level and I’ll do everything myself but the scariest parts of the electrical work.
[edit] oh and it’s connected through some Internet of Shit device that I’m sure will stop working in a few years and cause all kinds of trouble in the replacement. If I’d known it wasn’t just gonna be a big on/off switch, I’d not have done it.
> it’s connected through some Internet of Shit device
You probably got some "tax credits" that are, legally, a pre-payment for the expected generation of carbon offset credits, and your system has to report metrics to verify the actual electricity generation so that the credits can be created over time. Did you read all the fine print of the contracts you signed?
We did, and it left a pretty bitter taste in our mouths.
Oh, I’m sure it was mentioned in there somewhere and I just missed it. But utility Internet-connected meters and such seem pretty reliable at this point, if they just wanted to monitor. Instead it’s the usual smart-home garbage with an app and probably 500x the computing power it should reasonably need, basically guaranteed to cause problems sooner rather than later. Would’ve called it off if I’d noticed that up front.
I see these installs on roofs not facing south and wonder if the installers know something I don't know or if they are paid to install cells, not to optimize cell utilization.
* Never go with a power purchase agreement (PPA) or lease.
* Solar loans are not really worth it (super high interest rate compared to home loans).
* Installing yourself is doable, but as with all other contractors, best to compare installers. This requires some research beforehand.
My rush journey to meet NEM2 date earlier this year in CA: 1) researching components (panels/inverters) based on /r/solar subreddit 2) picked a popular inverter manufacturer (Enphase) and went to their "installers" page 3) spammed 20-30 installers and compared the ability for them to meet the date as well as cost for the sizing/components I wanted 4) selected one installer and let them do the install. Before getting to (4) I did get a lot of "what you're asking for doesn't make sense" which I respected.
I'm not affiliated, but I've had my panels for 9 years (out of a 30 year support contract) and the company involved has been incredibly professional and supportive. If you're in the US Midwest and considering, I'm happy to give out the name.
It's a shame that bad actors have impacted such a crucial industry.
Likewise. I thought it would be about some kind of "name a star" service, but now you get not only a star, but all the celestial bodies in orbit, too. The linked article says, "Rooftop Solar Power..." which is much more clear.
The demand for solar in the US is high, but number of skilled laborers willing to be on a roof is very low. Last year I called almost 40 installers, every one of them was booked out for at least 6 months, some for a year. So, they can demand a premium.
Cost of hardware is also a lot higher. I was able to get panels for about $1/watt, iirc in AU it's closer to $0.45/watt (not installed, just the hardware).
Factoring in the exchange rate, that's maybe half the the price I paid for a similar system here in the US less than a year ago. The thing that is hurting people is leasing. Basically to avoid people having to front that much cash, there are a lot of people who will install roof-top solar for no-money down- and a 30 year lease on the hardware on top of your own house. Then if you sell the house, now you have to get the new buyer to assume the lease, and the hedge funds who are primarily running the leasing operation are famously bad at running their back-office stuff (because that costs money to do right, but doesn't give them a single extra dollar). When we were looking into this we saw too many horror stories around leasing and decided we had to buy, which has worked out great for us- kicked our monthly power bill during the expensive season from >$500 to <$200, and the house is actually more comfortable than it was before.
The recent changes in the Inflation Reduction Act, offering a 30% tax rebate on all roof-top solar purchases, really changes the calculations and makes leasing much less attractive, so there will probably be many fewer of them going forward. But that also means that there will be less money for the hedge funds that have invested in the leasing, and they will probably make life even worse for the people with existing leases.
These profiteers are a huge threat to our glorious renewable residential roof top solar energy future. Once enough of these retrofits go bad, public opinion will sour, greatly slowing down adoption.
Solar attracts the same kind of grifters that do windows, roofs, and siding. With the added risks and complexity of messing with the electrical. (At least my windows will never need a firmware update.)
Being curious, I endured the pitch from a local solar contractor. It was everything you'd expect. I can totally see how they can suck people in.
If a home owner can't/won't manage the solar install themselves, I don't see how they avoid falling prey.
I mosdef would never lease.
Sunrun has to option where they own and operate the gear, selling you the power (with the option to buy the gear at the end of contract). This arrangement of incentives might be best for most people.
Why prepay $6k for a lease? You've just obliterated the cashflow benefit of leasing.
Separately, the US seems in general very poor for basic consumer advocacy stuff? Like, fabricated culture war stories can make national news, but "person ripped off by business" doesn't enter politics at all?
Certain parts of the US establishment put enormous cultural weight on preserving the right of businesses to take advantage of consumers under the theory that in a free market the information will spread organically and consumers will punish those businesses.
It doesn't hurt that it's effectively legal for businesses to bribe politicians (as long as nobody is dumb enough to keep 6-figure sums of cash in their houses and get their wives no-show jobs for those businesses).
I decided to install solar myself, paid out of pocket, after having sales rep after sales rep knock on my door trying to sell me a leased or financed system. What they were offering for $60k over 30 years, I was able to do for $23k after incentives, and I fully own the system. The hardware itself is top of the line, and so will be less likely to need repair over the next few decades.
But if I do need it repaired, I can call up any good installer in the area (ones that make their money putting panels on roofs, not the ones that make their money selling loans and leases), and I'll still be ahead.
A little bit of sweat equity is the ONLY way to do solar installs. Even if you hire other people to do the installation, sourcing the panels, the hardware, and your own electrician will save tens of thousands of dollars.
If you let a general contractor like SunRun, Tesla, or Solar City do the sourcing, you will either get:
a) The older generation equipment for top of the line prices.
And I'd have saved a lot more if I did the actual installation myself as well, but my roof is an 8/12 and 12/12 slope on a two story house. I did some test walks up there, and there was absolutely no way I'd have pulled off a one-man install even with a cherry picker.
If the roof was 6/12 and had an easier geometry to work with, I'd have ended up paying closer to $14k for a 16.5kW system, which is an absurdly good price ($0.84 / watt) for solar, even if you compare it to a country like Australia. Smaller installers are more likely to take on semi-DIY projects like this at a reasonable rate that'll still save you money.
You may also want to watch some YouTube videos about how other people have installed their own. Mostly they are off-grid, but there are a few grid-tied systems as well. For the grid tied systems I would recommend buying plans like dymk did. A bill of materials and a plan will help a ton.
Based on the kit DYMK showed in his breakdown I think he used SelfSolar:
I originally started with one of those semi-DIY companies (not Unbound, but similar) where they build a site plan, give you a permit packet, and offer to sell you the hardware in a kit, but I found it to be not worthwhile. They mismeasured the roof via poor quality areal photography, and the BOM they came up with was low to midrange hardware with a large markup.
I just rolled it myself and found suppliers for the panels, inverters, racking, did the roof CAD layout & branch structure, and permitting (single line diagrams + some paperwork) myself. Saved a bunch of money and ended up with a nicer install that way.
In theme with the article, I'd likely end up with a system that didn't get installed for a year+, and if it did go up, it'd be poor quality and unsupported if I needed repair. I can tell a potential home buyer that with this home's system, there are no strings attached, no leases that come with the house, etc. WYSIWYG.
eBay + a few other suppliers. For eBay, they were brand new inverters sold in those quantities, warranty and all. From what I can tell, surplus from solar projects done by other installers. :)
It sounds like (the article is really not clear on the important details) the incentives were set up correctly i.e. if the hardware you lease is faulty then you will not lose out monetarily. But the companies can somehow just get away with not fulfilling their contractual obligations and so in reality you do lose out and you're just forced to pay for a service you don't receive?
52 comments
[ 8.2 ms ] story [ 498 ms ] threadhttps://whyy.org/segments/who-owns-the-moon/
But if not a planet, then what? Scholtz suspects it could be something even more exotic: a primordial black hole, one forged in the big bang.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24933280-100-is-there...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole
It quickly became clear to me that there was a strong disconnect between the "acquire business" and "fulfill obligations" aspects of these operations.
I don't think a single one of the installers in my area would look at my situation and say "nah I wouldn't put panels on your roof - not worth it. Please keep your money".
The harder they work, the more lucrative the contract for them AKA you're getting a bad deal.
Pretty much like 99% of advertising: the more they advertise, the more expensive they will be compared to the competition.
I’m never doing rooftop again, and if I do solar, it’ll be ground level and I’ll do everything myself but the scariest parts of the electrical work.
[edit] oh and it’s connected through some Internet of Shit device that I’m sure will stop working in a few years and cause all kinds of trouble in the replacement. If I’d known it wasn’t just gonna be a big on/off switch, I’d not have done it.
You probably got some "tax credits" that are, legally, a pre-payment for the expected generation of carbon offset credits, and your system has to report metrics to verify the actual electricity generation so that the credits can be created over time. Did you read all the fine print of the contracts you signed?
We did, and it left a pretty bitter taste in our mouths.
But yeah. I’ve seen some Northwest facing panels, and those people really got screwed.
* Never go with a power purchase agreement (PPA) or lease.
* Solar loans are not really worth it (super high interest rate compared to home loans).
* Installing yourself is doable, but as with all other contractors, best to compare installers. This requires some research beforehand.
My rush journey to meet NEM2 date earlier this year in CA: 1) researching components (panels/inverters) based on /r/solar subreddit 2) picked a popular inverter manufacturer (Enphase) and went to their "installers" page 3) spammed 20-30 installers and compared the ability for them to meet the date as well as cost for the sizing/components I wanted 4) selected one installer and let them do the install. Before getting to (4) I did get a lot of "what you're asking for doesn't make sense" which I respected.
It's a shame that bad actors have impacted such a crucial industry.
Have you heard of Manifest Destiny?
Not sure why the US is having such a hard time in comparison.
Cost of hardware is also a lot higher. I was able to get panels for about $1/watt, iirc in AU it's closer to $0.45/watt (not installed, just the hardware).
The recent changes in the Inflation Reduction Act, offering a 30% tax rebate on all roof-top solar purchases, really changes the calculations and makes leasing much less attractive, so there will probably be many fewer of them going forward. But that also means that there will be less money for the hedge funds that have invested in the leasing, and they will probably make life even worse for the people with existing leases.
Solar attracts the same kind of grifters that do windows, roofs, and siding. With the added risks and complexity of messing with the electrical. (At least my windows will never need a firmware update.)
Being curious, I endured the pitch from a local solar contractor. It was everything you'd expect. I can totally see how they can suck people in.
If a home owner can't/won't manage the solar install themselves, I don't see how they avoid falling prey.
I mosdef would never lease.
Sunrun has to option where they own and operate the gear, selling you the power (with the option to buy the gear at the end of contract). This arrangement of incentives might be best for most people.
Separately, the US seems in general very poor for basic consumer advocacy stuff? Like, fabricated culture war stories can make national news, but "person ripped off by business" doesn't enter politics at all?
It doesn't hurt that it's effectively legal for businesses to bribe politicians (as long as nobody is dumb enough to keep 6-figure sums of cash in their houses and get their wives no-show jobs for those businesses).
But if I do need it repaired, I can call up any good installer in the area (ones that make their money putting panels on roofs, not the ones that make their money selling loans and leases), and I'll still be ahead.
If you let a general contractor like SunRun, Tesla, or Solar City do the sourcing, you will either get:
a) The older generation equipment for top of the line prices.
b) Top of the line equipment for obscene prices.
If the roof was 6/12 and had an easier geometry to work with, I'd have ended up paying closer to $14k for a 16.5kW system, which is an absurdly good price ($0.84 / watt) for solar, even if you compare it to a country like Australia. Smaller installers are more likely to take on semi-DIY projects like this at a reasonable rate that'll still save you money.
Here's my cost breakdown - https://i.imgur.com/lieB9XG.png
https://unboundsolar.com/solar-information/diy-solar
https://www.renogy.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-diy-offgri...
You may also want to watch some YouTube videos about how other people have installed their own. Mostly they are off-grid, but there are a few grid-tied systems as well. For the grid tied systems I would recommend buying plans like dymk did. A bill of materials and a plan will help a ton.
Based on the kit DYMK showed in his breakdown I think he used SelfSolar:
https://selfsolar.com/your-solar-journey/
I just rolled it myself and found suppliers for the panels, inverters, racking, did the roof CAD layout & branch structure, and permitting (single line diagrams + some paperwork) myself. Saved a bunch of money and ended up with a nicer install that way.
Cost breakdown - https://i.imgur.com/lieB9XG.png
Buying from multiple sellers to take advantage of deals?
Looks like India nailed it. US $1294 for 5KWh ongrid, 14 days from document submission to our plant generating electricity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35712758