You also have tik tok ravers. A generation which built their own culture in isolation in the pandemic now flooding the dance floors not knowing anything about techno culture. For me it's a big part of not wanting to go anywhere anymore. Before, your outfit didn't matter, phones, photos and videos were discouraged. Nowadays these kids dress to impress and point there phones everywhere. They consume the techno culture and in that way destroy it. It's sad but I think it's over.
This seems like something that is just as funny but much less embarrassing without the pictures; ultimately a good argument for why there shouldn't be cameras there...
It's never over as long as there is a industrial ruin, a speaker and a glowstick. The rest is just the clubs that ate the raves. Nothing of value was lost.
It'll never be over--it's just Berlin will no longer be the capital of it. Actually would not be terribly surprised if the party moves to San Francisco next.
It goes were cheap space exists. So SF not, rust belt yes, eastern Europe yes..the gentrified poker chip stack cities of the investors can not host vibrant nightlife..
Come to think of it, I've personally seen what SF looks like after the money goes away--and this time it seems to be going a lot faster and to a much bigger degree.
This would assume housing in SF becomes reasonable ala dotcom crash era? Nimbys finally get their due? I remain incredibly skeptical that is going to happen but we’ll see.
Seems to me if the housing market continues to drop there, NIMBYs will get what they want: less demand for housing means less reason to build in their backyards.
Or I guess maybe you were referring to the value of their houses drop, in which case, probably, and I personally wouldn't be very troubled if I saw that.
This type of cultural movements require some deep genuine ethos.
Rich kids on Adderall who dream of startups and VC rounds do not qualify, no matter how much they pretend not to be finance jerk-offs in shorts and sandals, reality is not on the side of SF being the center of anything like this.
Any Rustbelt city has 100% more chances than SF and California in general.
I know but there isn't enough time in 10 years for this type of changes. SF is still fundamentally the same as it was 10 years ago. Only a cataclysmic collapse similar to Detroit would change SF in a way that people with money had left and only the ones the had to stay had enough hardship but also education to make something at the scale of what happened in Berlin, which in that case was an almost complete annihilation and 40 years of brutal communism clashed with an economic boom and freedom a few meters away. ( plus many other things )
I guess we'll see. East Berlin was unique, but then again, every set of historical circumstances is unique.
I'd also argue that, by missing the boat (pun intended) on containerization and allowing the Port of Oakland to poach most of the shipping traffic, the city's original main economic engine shut down, and that the dotcom booms aside, SF's default mode for the past 60-70 years is "wretched hive of scum and villainy". The Summer of Love, the first counterculture to be called by that name, arose in Haight-Ashbury because the Haight was a slum at the time and a group of broke hippies could often band together to afford the rent on a house there.
This is very naïve. Berlin had the perfect storm required for this to work: a strong counter culture, post-wall joy, and a lot of cheap old abandoned buildings. It really isn't just something that can happen anywhere, hence why it hasn't...
Many places have abundant abandoned buildings and a strong counter culture. Very few have a Berlin Wall, I'll grant you, but the spark to set this off could come from elsewhere.
I guess it depends on what we mean by "it". If you mean an exact repeat of Berlin 1989 to today-ish, no. But if we're talking a vibrant counterculture in general, then favorable conditions for that are far more common. History, as they say, doesn't repeat, but it sometimes rhymes.
Also if you look at my exact wording: I don't say it's going to happen, I say I would not be surprised to see it happen.
Wow, a group of mostly privileged and well-off people squatting in a space that used to deliver prosperity and advancement across class lines, and appropriating it as a venue for narcissism and drug-taking.
The “main character” TikTok culture is the most annoying thing in popular culture right now. Well that and maybe the cringey YouTube pranksters that deserve to be punched and sometimes are.
Maybe the clubs could do something to make it a bad environment to make TikTok videos, like bombing the place with extremely bright flashing lights at a frequency that humans can’t see but that interferes with most phone cameras?
Phones and photography are banned in many Berlin clubs - they either lock your phone away at the entrance or put a sticker on the camera. That's why you barely see any footage from inside Berghain anywhere...
"Se non è vero è ben trovato" but this reddit post [1] does a decent enough job of explaining what's happening there (or what cool people think it might be happening in there). Slightly NSFW text post:
It is, and that's what it's intended as. Some shows in the US do it too. e.g. Lane 8's This Never Happened shows in Oakland. But the most recent version of that had a lot of people complaining that there were lots of phone camera usage, so the sticker thing might not work in some venues.
Thing with sticker is that usually you go to the toilet and walls are covered in those stickers people removed from their devices as soon as they got away from the bouncers.
The point is that the sticker would have to be taken off deliberately. If you are caught taking a photo, you can't claim you just forgot about the rules. You broke the rules on purpose and depending on the club they either get very angry with you or kick you out without warning.
The stickers you see on the walls could have accumulated over month. The system usually works fine and you rarely see anyone taking photos. Certainly way less than in clubs without those stickers.
For many older people it died in the 90s. When people stopped dancing and treated the DJ like it was a concert I felt it had changed into something else. I watch some of the old VHS I took and people are crowding the speakers and the floor is alive, while nowadays so much of what I see is people all facing a DJ lit up by a spotlight and just standing their bobbing their head.
Some things do change for the worse, others for the better. Smaller, more tight knit communities, like raves were in the 80s and early 90s were, in my mind, better than the predominately business-oriented DJ-festishization parties of today. There are good parties still going on, but it's not the primary mover of the rave scene like it once was.
Kids these days may not need those scenes as much these days, since they're more open to people who are different. Much of the early rave scene was for people that didn't fit in, for whatever reason.
I've never been to KitKat, though I've been past it a few times. Given the reputation, I'd be surprised if they ever allowed cameras or devices with them.
They don't allow phones past the cloakroom in Kitkat, and pretty much anyone in there will immediately challenge anyone who sneaks one past. All the other clubs tend to just have stickers over the cameras, and will still kick anyone out who's seen to be videoing or taking photos.
They actually were better back then which is what drives people crazy. I think it’s because the older generations (us) didn’t put any value in tradition, so we weren’t able to preserve ours.
I really hate this meme. A lot of things really were better in the past. Website user interfaces are a big example here. Conversely, some other things are much better now; cigarette smoking rates are a big example.
It does seem to imply that nothing ever changes culturally which is of course false. That said, fellow olds do often seem to put on the rose tinted glasses for anything that happened in their youth so it’s a good reminder all the same.
Which is why I specified for older people who lived through the early scene. Kids today will create their own unique scenes while others will milk the nostalgia of past ones.
SF had many more fun venues when SOMA was underutilized industrial real estate available to promoters and artists. A counterculture needs cheap space.
A promoter friend told me after the first dot-com crash that half the twentysomethings had left SF and the other half were working their butts off to survive.
Which is exactly the crap that Berghain is protecting itself from with it's strict door policy. The dancefloor is pure sound, the DJ is visible but not the center.
When people stopped dancing and treated the DJ like it was a concert I felt it had changed into something else
That might have happened in some particular scenes, but:
- the exact same thing kept on going, maybe shifted a bit to more underground things; I don't know what type of parties you are referring to, but the stuff I frequent has been using the same principle for a long time: it is often so that one cannot even see the DJ because they're covered in the decoration and/or the DJ is in the back of the place and people dance to the speakers in the front
- not all concerts are the same. I get what you mean about 'DJ in the spotlight' which is just somewhat saddening especially if they're just pushing some buttons or even faking it, but at least for me there is something about proper interaction between DJ or band and the crowd which I also really like. I have fond memories of small parties where we'd be going crazy in front of the DJ because they'd build this really nice story in the mix where we'd knew what was coming and they know we knew and that would lead to an even better feeling of togetherness. So even though they're in the front they'd actually be part of the crowd as well.
This rings of "get off m'lawn" vibes. As a gen Z myself, I question what's wrong with "tiktok ravers" wanting to dress up and enjoy music? The whole genre will fade away if it doesn't curate to the next generation, as the originals get too creaky to dance.
I don't care. Before, people would look out for each other and treat everyone with respect, regardless of clothing and style. Tik Tok ravers tend do to the opposite. Let people die on the fucking curb, being an asshat, just go to raves to take all drugs at once. I'm no the only one who thinks that way. This is a very big debate, especially in Germany. So what's wrong with tik tok ravers? They bring their fucking consumerism into a culture that they don't care for, destroying it in the process.
If you were to ask a British raver of a certain age, they'd tell you that Berghain and Kit Kat in their prime were nothing compared to Shelley's Laserdome, Bagley's or the Doncaster Warehouse, which were themselves pale imitations of the summer of '89.
Yeah i was thinking back to Cream (and other nights) at Nation in Liverpool early nineties and the Manchester scene. Mates dj’d downstairs at Baa Bar and we were just kids really.
Some fucking great times.
Fucked my hearing though, wear earplugs at the rave, kids.
I bet an exactly similar kind of oversimplified, nitpicking rant must have been made for the punk culture of your time by your elders, and the same for them, ad infinitum.
There seems to be a psycho-social aspect to these generational agitations, whatever new thing the young ones bring will always be seen in the worst possible way by their elders in every generation.
FWIW I was at a punk/metal show this weekend and the crowd skewed younger and it kinda sucked. No one seemed to be enjoying themselves. It felt like they just wanted to be seen there. My friend commented that it felt like church which was hilarious considering the setting (and accurate).
Hardcore shows at squats still live on though, and people are there to enjoy for sure. But that's because if you don't like the music and setting you would leave pretty quickly.
I tend to think this kind of self-filtering system is more effective than bouncers at the door, but at the same time, consumers be consumin, and they glom onto faddy subcultures just long enough to completely hollow them out. There's arguments to be made for curating the spaces that art resides and thrives in.
You can use this to argue against literally any new social problem. Sometimes it is actually true that the newer generations are doing something wrong, you know?
The problem is not being dressing up, the problem is dressing up and then doing photo ops in areas where usually you don't really wanna be photographed. There always been an expectation of privacy on the dance floor at more underground places, but people seem to be getting a bit more shameless regarding not caring about the privacy of others.
In my experience in the scene, these types of people enter these spaces looking to be seen and aren't really there for the music (think taking flash photos of themselves in front of the DJs, taking up space on the dancefloor not dancing or vibing to the music, etc).
I have strong opinions on this, but don't get me wrong, there's a bit of gatekeeping for a good reason. The point is that people who are actually interested in the scene are more likely to respect it and contribute to the involved communities. Whereas a tik-tok raver's interest is likely fleeting and uninformed about the spaces they occupy.
I’m not that much older, but it adds to the “barrier to entries to have fun”. If a place perceived as “wear whatever, do whatever” turns into “look good in specific type of outfit”, it just loses potential customers. I’ve been around, including some of the aforementioned clubs, and at least for me that has been the case. Now I just avoid specific places in the world as I can’t be bothered to “fit in”.
Don’t get me wrong, I still like those kind of partying as well from time to time, but treating an average rave as a dress up dancing is way too much work for me. Also underground scene pretty much everywhere in the world is extremely alive and doing well, but became so much more protective of itself for the same reason. Why would you go somewhere at 2am with a chance of overcrowding and being filmed, when you can go somewhere where you can dance till 6am, albeit only 60% of the fun?
I went to my first party in 1994. This type of conversation has always been a constant.
I remember people at that time complaining that it was bullshit the DJ wasn't behind a curtain like the good ol days. Even being able to see the DJ made the party too much like a rock concert and "it was ruining the scene"
There was a whole era of conversation like this that was against spinning compact discs and cdjs. A real DJ spins vinyl. CDs sound too cold and sterile and they are "ruining the scene".
When people started spinning mp3s? lol, that was apocalyptic and totally "ruining the scene".
20 years from now there will be something new "ruining the scene" unlike the good old days when people put a lot of effort into their outfit and crafted videos to post on tiktok to try to promote "the scene".
The core problem with "bring camera to venue" and subsequently "tiktok ravers" is inversion of relationship between the crowd and event. Before mass media you went to e.g. theatrical play or cinema to passively consume "content", whereas all the festivals were in large part made by partygoers. The more niche the rave, the more of the atmosphere is/was created by the attendees. The job of a DJ in a rave was largely to control the rhythm and the flow.
Partygoers with cameras reduce this relationship to simple consumerism, largely consumption of content. The more passive attendees there are, the larger the pressure is on the venue to make or break the party. Tiktok ravers are just more egregious iteration of the thing.
While I don't like the phone use just as much as you do wouldn't they be adding to the event in their own way based on their outfits? You may not like it but it is a unique form of expression that adds to the experience.
TikTok is fairly bit different as the algo can promote any random video to everyone in the world. A decade ago instagram was more of a “one-to-your-followers”. So you get these potential views from everywhere. It also promotes novelty and ever-changing trends, so it’s hard to put a finger where is positive and negative impact.
But yeah, we definitely complained about instagram a decade ago as well. Maybe we are getting old!
I've been going to raves and festivals since the 90s and the current culture is great! I mean yeah it's different but still pretty much the same. Reading some of the anecdotes here I can't help but think that people are glossing over the same issues in the past. And yeah it is true that DJs have become a centerpiece rather than someone behind the scenes... but the experience itself has evolved with amazing visual performance art, especially with all the LED stuff and lasers and etc that are so prolific now. I've seen people treated terribly 25 years ago and today; at the same time I've seen people being generous and caring as well. There is a huge difference as well for lgbtq people at these places, the inclusivity has dramatically improved.
Maybe you did. When I used to go to raves in the 90's, where I went it was all heavy on the light shows and people painted in fluorescent colours in response to it. The sound was part of it, but I could listen to music at home.
I don't think you're based in Germany if that's your experience.
I linked two short documentaries in another comment, but basically:
tik tok kids don't adhere to safer drug use at all. Outfits and photos are not the worst thing. Overdoses are on a high. At the same time, looking out for each other is not something they tend to do. Especially at "illegal" raves, we have a very big problem of Gen Z not helping folks who feel unwell, leading to people dying on the floor. This is not a "the new generation is shit" argument. I despise tik tok ravers, not the gen z per se.
> There is a huge difference as well for lgbtq people at these places, the inclusivity has dramatically improved.
I don't understand where you're coming from. In Germany this was never a problem. Nobody gave a shit who you are and how you're dressed.
It’s all just status. You can wear whatever you want and if you’ve got clout with the staff, or if you’re with someone else who is high status, you’ll get in.
Otherwise it’s a coin flip unless you’re clearly intoxicated, belligerent, etc.
Same as it ever was. You just didn’t recognize it because you were younger and in clubland youth is the only status currency that’s zero effort to acquire.
The edge of rave culture in Berlin is moving more toward ambient music and healing / spirituality. I think this is because freedom is no longer so political in the West. Moving your body the way you want to and being accepted for who you are is mainstream, and kids who've grown up with that are now looking for deeper sources of meaning.
you guys can act nostalgic about $5 cover charges at farmhouses in the middle of the woods, but that stuff was objectively horrible. smoke filled, counterculture only people, dingy.
I love the crowd that comes to these $600 music festivals, they're sexy and maintain good jobs or wealth, good support systems, can talk deeply about many technical topics, second hand smoke is sparse, and the production value increased to match!
oh no, phones. like what? this didn't start post pandemic. you have a missing decade and I'm not even going to ask.
edit: saw some of your other comments on this topic, this category of person is a big matter of discussion in Germany it seems. I think its silly to just put Tik Tok as an adjective on everything you don't like because I see that in other fields too. There are certain behaviors it seems some people are doing that are different than the ones you highlighted.
I don't really understand you, sorry! Sounds partly sarcastic to me.
> I think its silly to just put Tik Tok as an adjective on everything you don't like because I see that in other fields too. There are certain behaviors it seems some people are doing that are different than the ones you highlighted.
Well, I do because it's the only thing I can say something about. It's not a category I put on everyone I don't like but it's a term that's shared and quite clearly defined in a very narrow discussion about techno and the pandemic. It only partially relates to the overall tik tok consumerism discussion.
I’m not sure what sort of decline the article is referring to. There’s not a single reference to revenues or guest count for any club in Berlin, nor mention of any specific club in danger of closing due to lack of patronage.
These clubs were great while the city was struggling, but now that it’s not, I can see why people don’t wish to tolerate the negative externalities associated with them. Hopefully most clubs can find a way to integrate into today’s Berlin. Some may not be able to and disappear. Cities aren’t static beings.
I’ve also realized I prefer underground parties or small social gatherings to 3-hour lines, 40 euro entrance fees, and uncertain door policies.
Like Berghain has trouble filling the place. They keep the line artificially long to preserve a veneer of exclusivity. You don’t have to be a Berliner to know that trick, most clubs pull the same thing whenever possible.
This might be true for very few very selective clubs like Berghain, certainly not true for all Berlin clubs. In the case of Berghain, it obviously doesn't suffer from losing customers—your comment confirms this point.
Berlin clubs are a scene, it's highly recommended to do prep work before going out. Personally, I would love for these clubs to be more accessible, but understand that Berghain has a very specific reputation that it works hard to maintain. It's an exclusive techno club considered by many to be the best in the world.
You need to know how to look and set the right expectations if you want to experience the most highly regarded techno club in the world. If you show up there with a group of drunk mates wearing sweatshirts or office attire - don't expect to be admitted. It's not that hard really, exclusive places have special rules.
> If you show up there with a group of drunk mates wearing sweatshirts or office attire - don't expect to be admitted.
Why not? I was at a heavy metal concert in Shibuya last May, and the place was full of 50-something guys in full office suits. It was a Monday, so I guess they just finished work and went directly to the concert. It was quite amusing to be honest...
You're comparing apples and oranges. A metal concert isn't an exclusive club; anyone can buy a ticket and go. And yes, most salarymen in Tokyo wear office suits every day, so since it was on a Monday, they just didn't bother bringing a change of clothes. I see men in such suits all the time on weekdays doing whatever, because those are their work clothes.
It's unfortunate that the rock and metal crowd is mostly middle-aged people these days; the young people seem to be listening to rather bland pop music, idol music, etc.
> It's an exclusive techno club considered by many to be the best in the world.
Being exclusive is really against the ethos of techno in Berlin. The "exclusivity" at the door is usually about achieving a fun mix of people and keeping out the ones who cannot behave.
As an occasional clubber in Berlin, these "best" things are ridiculous. The "best" kebab place with the long queue is nothing special at all, and Berghain is, apart from the building and the (mostly gay) sex stuff (which don't do much for me) a club like many others. It's never been my favorite - the vibe can be surprisingly aggressive and the music is often not that good for my taste. I used to go there for specific acts or along with friends only. Haven't bothered for years now. Nowadays it's also become expensive, cashing in on its dubious status.
There is a thing that the "best" kebab place and the "best" club have in common: kebab places and clubs are both very good in Berlin, so if you go to the one that the tourist guide / TikTok recommended, you're probably going to have a good time - but maybe you don't know that there are many other just as good or better places.
I've noticed this too about things deemed "the best." They often are susceptible to diminishing returns. For example, I go to a lot of Michelin-starred restaurants, but many of them are really not much better than I could make at home. Sure, they may have more exclusive ingredients, but the raw flavor potential is not significantly increased in Michelin-starred restaurants versus those outside of that group.
If you're not that impressed by Michelin-starred restaurants, why do you go?
As for how restaurants compare to making food at home, I don't think almost any restaurant can do better than a good chef at home. Someone at home can concentrate on making a top-quality meal for one or two people (maybe a couple more at the most), and doesn't have any real time pressures, or needing to share kitchen resources with meals made for dozens of other customers. It's pretty much the ideal environment for cooking, assuming 1) the equipment available is good and 2) the chef is skilled enough. Of course, #2 is a big one, so while some people who are confident in their cooking skills can claim "I can cook better meals than most Michelin-starred restaurants!", lots of other people can't cook meals that require more skill than "put in microwave for 4 minutes" so most restaurants can easily beat that.
I go because there is always something new to discover, in the way they cook, plate, and serve their foods, which I then use in my own cooking. Plus, I am hoping that one of them at least will impress me someday. As for home cooking, I agree with you, but oftentimes even other restaurants can beat Michelin-starred restaurants on flavor, so it's not just skilled home cooks. I view Michelin-starred restaurants as one would view high fashion and their shows, pieces of sensory art rather than pedestrian fare.
Anecdotal, but I have a 100% hit ratio at Berghain and have never done any kind of prep work. Most of the times bh was not even part of the plan and we would just show up there, sometimes still with the backpack from work, laptops and all. Maybe two or three of us, sometimes on my own. I think it sucks that so many people are rejected at the door, but the approach clearly works once you get inside and feel the vibe.
I was rejected at Kater Blau once though, for who knows what reason. It's the way it works, if you get bumped you can get angry at the system or just forget your ego and go elsewhere and enjoy the night.
That's genuinely nothing to do with why the Berlin clubs with strict entry policies are great. The experience inside doesn't feel exclusive, it's beautiful - people being free and really immersed in the music, supporting and taking care of one another, creating myriad moments of connection and joy, and a very much lower rate of people being obnoxious or in conflict than in a regular club. It's totally unlike being in a club that doesn't have the same kind of entry standards, and each club has a unique culture that is upheld in part by their door staff.
Exactly, I feel like people who complain about this have never experienced anything close to what you describe. Strict door policy benefits the club goers. If you want to go pick up girls with some sweaty dudes looking for a fight - that's fine, there are many clubs like that in any European country, including Germany.
That's 100% the thing. KitKat for example has recently been taking hits to its reputation because there have been instances of groping in there and they've been ignored by the club stuff. Now that they let Till Lindemann in a few weeks ago even though there have been active accusations of sexual harassment against him, they are completely done for with anyone who cares. In contrast, places like Berghain are blind to fame - there have been stories of celebrities like Björk being turned away at the entrance.
Been away from Berlin for 7 months or so and I'm really saddened and surprised to hear that about KitKat. It's a complex line to navigate in there always but that's part of the beauty of it - I've had plenty of uncomfortable or challenging experiences in there but always felt fundamentally safe, and know many of my friends, especially women, find it a safe (but sometimes challenging) space. It really does depend on the whole culture participating in holding the line, and it sounds like it's faltering recently.
My experience of KitKat is that unwanted attention of any kind (which depending on the night might not be super rare) is quickly shut down by the people in the immediate area before the staff even get close, and then the staff respond very quickly to it, especially if someone who is a regular calls attention.
I've only heard great things about KitKat even from people who live in Berlin. It's a bit of a Mekka according to the people in the scene here.
The scene is prone to issues and what we do in my town is not allowing new people unless they have a fet account and/or accompanied by a regular. There's also a blacklist of known offenders. Not sure if that's the case over there.
I really hope I can visit it one day but I'm really afraid of travelling all the way there and being refused..
Ps regarding Lindemann I'm not a big fan of cancelling people before the facts come out. I absolutely abhor abuse but I'm also very much in favour of innocent until proven guilty.
It wouldn't really be a risk of him misbehaving because there's so many eyes on him. But I know it's a tough line to draw. Glad I'm not a club manager.
Sisyphos is selective in this way but also plays the most normie pop and house music you're liable to find in Berlin outside of maybe the couple Schlager clubs that manage to survive outside of Bayern.
I don't fully follow the anecdata in this article. They mention that Berghain had to raise its cover charge to "deal with rising costs" (understandable, considering the inflation), not that they have fewer patrons.
And even if, if one club closes down it hardly means the end of the club scene as a whole. I qm not familiar with Berlin that much, but back the day the club in Munich was P1. Now not anymore, doesn't mean others didn't take P1s place so.
Right. It's a form of segregation. A place whose roots are in Bohemian, black, gay and trans clubs with specific focus on welcoming outcasts should be explicitly inclusive.
Traveling to Asia, South America and Europe to meet with electronic artists I've never had any interest in attempting to go to the segregated clubs of Berlin. I find it offensive.
Here just to share that I think "segregated" night clubs are essential for creating a publicly accessible and safe + positive vibe club experience.
Your other options are (a) let anyone in and you get a**** and total dilution of cultural values (quick death of the institution) or (b) it's a private party and you're not invited.
For accessible and good, you can stay on your toes and find new, smaller clubs and scenes that haven't had time to die yet, but that's its own exclusiveness: if you don't know, you don't know.
Counterpoint: Hacker News, CDMX EBM scene, goth scene, LA underground art scene, SF renegade rave scene, Latin bars, gay clubs like the EndUp, which have been open and welcoming since 1971, gay black scene, free software movement, gay Asian scene in any city, bear bars, salsa clubs, martial arts clubs, drag bars, anime scene, furry scene, hiking groups, Trekkies, adventurer clubs, punk scene, bicycle riders groups, astronomy groups, ball room dancing groups, central american danza cultural groups, alcoholics anonymous... Even prestigious universities have countless open proseminars where you can just walk in off the street to a graduate symposium. I've gone to many, you really just walk in the door.
I'd argue the majority of cliques and scenes are extremely accepting and people self filter. Having a discriminating door guy is just being an asshole.
You can go out to hundreds of bars in Berlin without any door policy whatsoever. Legendary bars, cool bars, gay bars, etc. It's not like the whole of Berlin is segregated.
But this approach just wouldn't benefit some popular dance clubs. Without a solid door policy clubs would be stuffed with people who come there for wrong reasons. To pick up girls, to get drunk, to visit an attraction for the sake of a visit (not because they enjoy techno music), to get into a fight, etc etc. Have you ever been to a poorly managed club? They don't have a community, don't focus on a holistic clubbing experience, have many people with really bad vibes. Would you want to stay there for a night and the next day (night time + day time raves)?
> underground cliques
Let's be honest, techno is not underground in Berlin, these clubs are a massive tourist attraction. Berghain is not a 50 person dive bar in SOMA.
So your argument is that it's a popular tourist attraction so instead of capitalizing on it by say opening a second, moving to a bigger space, having more events, selling tickets in advance or charging higher prices they instead openly and famously discriminate based on physical appearance?
In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I bet I'm not.
Btw, KitKatClub doesn't do that and they're equally famous.
I am reminded that we are on a tech forum :) Do they need to capitalize, scale, open franchise clubs all over the world? Techno clubs are not about that at their best.
Door policy is discrimination only in the sense that the very few people at the door have to make a swift judgment on whether your group will fit in. Can this be upsetting? Sure!
> In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first.
By this logic liquor stores in the US also discriminate based on person's nationality since they check the ID.
KitKatClub has a strict dress code policy for their sex-oriented events.
Kitkatklub dress code is wacky. They're insanely serious about it but it's easy to conform to. It's a costume party.
As to the other point, you can separate the process to avoid the kind of blanket discrimination I think we can all agree is unethical. I bet they don't make the slightest effort. It's probably one guy that checks your ID and says yes/no and one guy that takes money. It could be 3 instead of 2 to avoid, just to be crazy, saying no to all the Jewish names, but it's not.
Next time I'm in Berlin, I'll try to remember to take a clicker with me and stand outside the place. I bet you'll start to notice a few interesting patterns that America has quite a few laws against. I've only heard them to be extremely proud of their bias so I'd be surprised if you didn't start seeing just classic discrimination because that's what humans appear to naturally do unless they work really really hard at it or have some structures to prevent it.
You could approach visiting Berghain the same way you do with KitKatClub. I don't recommend it, but you could. Treat it as a costume party - match the expectations, dress up appropriately, come with a friendly group.
If the community and friendly feel is the selling point, then no you can not really scale that way and simultaneously keep the community and relationships. You have to choose between the two.
I see your point, but a community venue and constantly wounding up and starting anew also don't mix. It's an unfortunate outcome of the scale and the system we live in. If Berghain was a XII century monastery in an inaccessible place it could have maintained a community venue for centuries. A large club in the techno capital of the world has to resort to a different approach if it wants to maintain at least some level of continuity, status, and quality for its community.
This is an exaggeration. All communities have something that make them a community, and not just an everchanging group of random people. Is being into techno a random or superficial reason for being a part of the techno community? Is looking and being friendly a superficial reason for being a part of an intentionally accepting community? This is the same argument people use in many other contexts where inclusion is conflated with having no rules and preferences. Should gay sex parties admit large groups of drunk aggressive lads just because gay parties are supposed to be inclusive? This approach ends up compromising the community itself, it really doesn't benefit the cause.
Ultimately, I agree, and have spent a lot more time in many of these scenes than at Berghain.
However, all of them are fairly self-selecting in different ways that I think are difficult or impossible to achieve in a long-running, ostensibly "for everyone" institution like a techno club.
I understand you feel that way but materially it's incorrect.
You can be exclusive for exclusive-sake and you'll attract the dolce & gabana crowd and maybe that's what they want - people who will spend $500 on alcohol.
But as far as techno I've met all the Belleville 3, two of them twice and each time it's been at tiny spots with like $0-$5 cover.
I've even been to warehouse parties with producers big enough to have Wikipedia pages that are just honor systems where you promise to venmo the promoter and there is no door guy. Highschool kids could just walk in doing hard drugs and to be honest they probably did.
But then again, there's certainly pop techno and non-pop techno. Tiestos YouTube has like 3.7 billion views. That's a different problem than say
Legowelt with 200k.
Pay attention to the downvotes, and browse HN with "showdead" turned on, and you'll see that HN stays the way it is in large part due to aggressive exclusion of those who can't stick to society norms up to an including the metaphorical "door guy" (bans).
Self-filtering is a start. But pretty much all cliques and scenes also have lines you will get ostracised if you go past. The extent of their reaction if you will vary, and sure, there's a difference between proactively judging you based on appearance and retroactively judging you by actions, but in some scenes your appearance is part of the game. That sucks if you don't fit in, but it also sucks for those who want something specific if you're that one person who can't self filter and insist on ruing the experience for everyone else.
Exclusion based on contribution is different than exclusion based on discrimination.
It's a very important difference.
If I, just some random dude, submitted a correct mathematical paper solving a millennium or Hilbert puzzle to a prestigious journal, for instance, they would publish it regardless of the fact that I'm not so and so from Princeton. They wouldn't exclude my valued contribution.
Discrimination would be me submitting the correct solution but first having to find and tack on so and so from Princeton as the author in order to even get considered.
Now I'd probably have to wrangle them a bit to convince them, but that's just credulity, not discrimination.
That's quite different than say Hattie McDaniel, a black actress, being excluded from the premiere of her movie, Gone with the Wind and unable to accept her Oscar on stage because of discrimination.
Discrimination exists regardless of contribution for reasons ultimately unrelated to the nature of the contribution
None of the people you're arguing with here have been defending exclusion based on discrimination of the kind you're objecting to, so it's then unclear why you're making this argument.
The specific comment you replied to that I replied to did not argue for the kind of discrimination you're talking about here either.
I'm absolutely sure that the kind of discrimination you're talking about is also an issue with quite a few clubs, but they are two very different issues.
Sure but consequences come from systems, structures, and institutions and not from intentions.
You can tell me it's some vibe check but it's structurally set up to discriminate based on classic markers and there's been intentionally zero remediations to avoid it.
In fact, many reports of xenophobia, antisemitism and racism persist, just Google it, it's everywhere.
That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our institutions in the US in the name of inclusion and not just have better intentions.
Berghain and Tresor can to whatever the fuck they want, I don't care. But let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it magically turns to something else based on wishes and dreams.
Then attack the lack of remediation, and the lack of more objective criteria, not the notion that there are criteria for participation in all kinds of communities including in most of the ones you used as examples of inclusive ones.
> That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our institutions in the US in the name of inclusion and not just have better intentions.
Are you suggesting that worked?
> But let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it magically turns to something else based on wishes and dreams.
The problem is that you appear to call a spade something else entirely, and attack a position nobody has taken. I note that you have expanded on specific issues and pointed out another club that has specific policies that can be easily conformed to elsewhere, and that was a much more productive line of argument to take.
Some of the dead can be interesting as long as the discussion does not touch topics that send them off. Makes you wonder if you could create a discussion direction tag based partial shadowban.
"I'd argue the majority of cliques and scenes are extremely accepting and people self filter. Having a discriminating door guy is just being an asshole."
Yes and it is a pretty good description of most Berliners. As a capital, that has mainly lived the last 30 years by sucking tremendous money out of the other federal states, as a city that has little industry and businesses left, as a place which administration has become dysfunctional, it gives the stupid arrogant little Berliner a feeling or superiority if he gets into a club but others must stay outside.
And before you donwvote me, for many years I loved this city. I caught a last glimpse of the post reunification Berlin, when basically all the good clubs had no license or whatever. Bars and clubs at the craziest places. Took the police years to close this down. And today, if you walk through Prenzlauer Berg or Oranienburger str. OMG.
> (a) let anyone in and you get a** and total dilution of cultural values (quick death of the institution)
The counterargument to your point is somewhat self-evident: all the great nightclubs in Berlin that have way more relaxed entrances than Berghain that aren't filled with assholes and aren't completely diluted of cultural values.
Often times it's the exclusivity that attracts the assholes who normally don't listen to that kind of music anyway.
Berlin has got to be the most unfriendly city in Europe to rave in as a foreigner by far. I was into that scene back then and would much rather party in London or Amsterdam.
The most likely reason is that you give off tourist vibes. My Berliner friend told me as such when I came to visit, we hit up some thrift shops so I could get some local threads and 'blend in'
In fact, when I got in one club a very cute german girl tried to talk to me on the dancefloor. But I didn't speak any German and she got angry, shouting "aaauuggh!! tourists!!!"
Also, for the clubs that forbid alcohol (hard drugs only!), they will refuse you if you are caught drinking in line or are visibly drunk.
Also, I was told to keep my mouth shut as they will sometimes refuse you if you speak English
At least this is how it was about 13 years ago. My friend was a self-described and un-ironic "hipster", who kept his finger on the pulse of the local underground, and of course he lived in Kreuzberg
Well, you can also be a "tourist" as a German visiting Berlin. And be treated as such.
I think speaking English in itself was never a problem to get in. But of course the tourist vibes get stronger if the person doesn't know the "definition of cool" that is expected and appreciated in that particular club.
Take this example [1] of a tourist they probably let in by accident and regretted it. :)
Clubs don't forbid alcohol. That was misleading hyperbole. Being visibly drunk at the door might reduce chances to get in, but clubs make a lot of money with drinks and the majority of people will buy drinks, even in clubs where illicit drugs are consumed.
The thing about Berlin clubs is they care very strongly about the vibe and being cool, and/or protecting those deep in psychedlics or other stuff. Aggressive, drunk assholes ruin that so they are verboten in some spots. The bars are all happily stocked with non-alcoholic selections. It's not America where you need to make money at all costs fuck the consequences.
Note that these are the same places that will reputedly dump you out the back door if you overdo it or OD, take from that what you will.
Also, I think you underestimate just how much the party scene loves Club Mate over there. That is what we drank instead. It pairs really nicely with molly!
As a regular Berlin visitor I have never heard of a club that "forbids alcohol" let alone encourage illicit drug usage. It's actually quite the opposite – the clubs tend to actively discourage drug use (meaning searching for them at the door and kicking out everyone who is caught using).
The only difference with today would be that not speaking German no longer means that you are visiting. Boroughs such as Friedrichshain or Neukölln are full of expats, including young Americans who did not yet realize that they don't live in America anymore. Many people do indeed come for a few years to party their 20s away and move on with their lives into a different place, so they have no incentive in learning the local language.
I moved to Berlin to escape the political headaches in Poland while still being close to my family and friends, with no specific goal of partying here, as I've never liked clubs and dancing in general. But from hanging out with expats and sometimes joining them to themed parties in clubs, my takeout is that you have to spend a lot of money on clothing and appearance to show the bouncers that you really belong. Of course places like Berghain are completely random in that matter and the way you dress doesn't change anything (unless you really look like a tourist, I guess), but for most part it's a rich kids club.
Funny, for me it was like 30 euros at a thrift store and we were golden. I walked out with some really dope army-green tight Levi's, I still have those and I wish they still fit.
#2 don't be too cool for this. in that moment, he's head of security and you might be a reason to call the police or someone who'll cost the crowd too much attention for no return.
there is a recent 5-part documentary about berlin, its unique history since the fall of the wall, especially the nightlife, culture, investments and projects, housing etc
There is a very specific experience that Berghain sells and it is destroyed by allowing people deeply unfamiliar with the techno scene into the party. It’s not the kind of club that most people know or have experience with.
If they let in everyone who wants to go, it would stop being the thing that it is (which is why it is valuable and sought after). People don’t go there only for the building and sound system (though both are top notch). It’s the experience enabled by the specific people who are there (and, perhaps more importantly, who are not).
Many people check in all of their clothing at coat check. You can have gay or straight sex in most parts of the club. I’ve been involved in BDSM scenes in different parts of the venue. Nobody leers, nobody harasses you. There aren’t generally people wasted drunk, there are no fights.
If it were not a microcosm containing the specific scene it exists to support, and they just let in the general public indiscriminately, it would be no different than drinking in the park. Anyone can buy a world class soundsystem and book fancy techno DJs. Not anyone can recreate Berghain.
Exactly, when I was a student I used to go on the clubbing weekend trips the article describes and which are in decline.
> Even Berghain, typically an anomaly because it draws crowds from around the world, has raised its cover charge to deal with rising costs. He thinks fewer Europeans are making quick clubbing trips to the city due to the financial hit of the pandemic.
As a student, I had time and patience to look for another club for being denied entrance because I wasn't wearing leather BDSM harnesses after waiting in line for 2 hours. Now not so much.
This is good news though, now that the economic pressure is on, maybe it's a good time for non-fashionistas to go raving in Berlin again, though I doubt the euro is stronger than scene snobism.
> The ones that arbitrarily didn't let people get in when they were in their peak? Fuck them!
As someone who isn't white I can't stand clubs and the thought of being rejected because of how I look. It happened to me 90% of the time when I was young trying to enter these clubs, so new I just go to shows where I pre-paid my tickets. I haven't stepped foot in a club for years. The racism at the door of these prestigious clubs is/was simply insane.
I used to live part time in Berlin during the recent heyday of these clubs. The city was a bit more anarchic and chaotic. There was a lot of underground things happening.
I was there recently and the city felt much more subdued. Things got cleaned up. Lots of new housing. A bit more gentrified and quiet.
This isn’t discussed enough. Williamsburg got lame because people stayed. The complaints are about transplants but it’s those that stay and age who change the vibe
What I love about the tiktok generation is seeing them in small groups with a sizable Bluetooth boombox having fun in parks and outdoor places. No need for entrance fees and gatekeeping, they can listen to any DJ from the world live or recorded. I think clubs are overrated, small gatherings and ad hoc parties are way more interesting.
This isn't really 'tiktok generation'? Boomboxes are like 4 decades older if not more and were used for that. I did this stuff 2 decades ago. Likewise the underground rave scene which crashes warehouses and whatnot with their own sound system is a similar principle, and again not new at all (and still exists today as well). In fact I'd think (wouldn't know how to verify though, some searches turn up nothing) that as long as there existed something like a sort of portable sound playing device, people have been doing this exact same thing.
I think the closing point is pretty good: these businesses are complaining about declining revenues... but also turning people away?
If that's how the nightclub business works, it's better for the government to stay away from subsidizing them. Let them run their business in their own way - but without taxpayer funding.
Taxpayers fund them because it's part of our culture that is worth supporting. For example, Berlin clubs were financially supported as part of the Neustart Kultur campaign after covid.
Not true. Only the most famous ones are that selective and the opera is still many times more expensive - plus you actually need a certain dresscode at the opera.
Opera houses in general aren't elitist or selective at all. You can turn up looking like shit no problem, I certainly have. They're just happy that people have come along to enjoy the music. So actually these places are many times more elitist and closed minded than your average opera house. Cringe.
Opera can be pretty cheap, actually. And you can show up dressed badly and wont be turned away. Some people will look at you sideways, but no one will tell you anything.
If Berghain let in even 50% of the people who try to go to Berghain, the party would be terrible and repulsive every night.
I’ve been there a million times and even one person who doesn’t know techno and the way our scene works can ruin a few dozen square meters of dancefloor with boorish leering.
If you want to party in a sea of drunken tourists because they let everyone in, there are plenty of other clubs that aren’t nearly as protective of their dance floor vibe. Berghain is the exception, not the rule.
I agree, and I don’t get why the whole conversation is framed around Berghain. The other clubs are losing customers as well, and many of them don’t have very strict bouncers. That’s a bigger problem imo.
Berghain likes to exclude you based on your accent, if you sound "too American" you'll have to party elsewhere. A Berlin club owner bought some buildings in Detroit too and abandoned them, the death is felt internationally. https://abcnews.go.com/International/berlin-club-owners-miss...
In this case I suggest scepticism towards the theory that Berlin nightclubs intentionally and openly exclude American tourists (a pretty wealthy class). When the only proof is a random HN post. This doesn't even pass the sniff test. Sounds more like a urban legend started by some tourist that was bounced for any other arbitrary reason.
Hi, I've been involved in the dance scene stateside for 20+ years, and I'm also quite a bit of a skeptic myself. I would argue that it's not quite an urban legend, as US and European nightlife cultures both "party" a bit differently than one another - to condense this concept perhaps a bit unfairly, the general conception is that Americans party hard up front and can't "hang" for a long time, while Europeans pace out their partying over longer stretches of time.
There's at least a degree of resistance towards letting in too much of the American ethos, or at least in trying to make sure that the American tourist trying to get into the club is capable of hanging and respecting the hedonism within, as opposed to going balls to the wall for the sake of going balls to the wall.
I’m not really a big nightclub person, but during a trip to Germany, got a chance to meet up with a former colleague and friend in Berlin who offered to take us out to a nightclub situated in a very old castle. One of the coolest experiences of my life and it’s unfortunate to think that we’ll lose something like that from our culture just because of market forces and the next generation’s unwillingness to carry the torch when it doesn’t align completely with their sensibilities.
>the next generation’s unwillingness to carry the torch when it doesn’t align completely with their sensibilities.
Where did you get this from?
Its more the generation that started clubbing is now all grown up, complains about the noise, and drives up property prices.
> "Berlin nightlife is very free," he says. "It's trying to push artistic boundaries. It's trying to push personal boundaries. It's trying to let people experience music, art and culture with some rules. But those rules are created to have no rules."
I'm not sure this guy could be more pretentious if he tried. Maybe they should consider that this kind of attitude might be part of the problem.
Berghain for sure is not struggling, but even if they were, Andrea should know that you'll always have a hard time at the door with two guys sporting the "skinfade + northface jacket" combo.
I realise Berghain et al are trying to protect themselves from the riff raff, but enforcing a stupid "techno uniform" and turning away half their potential customers for arbitrary reasons probably doesn't help their business. I went to Berlin earlier this year and didn't even try to get into Berghain because I don't want to waste time queuing only to be turned away.
In London we have some excellent clubs that don't care whatsoever about what you're wearing and everybody has a great time. You buy a ticket, you get in, simple as that.
> I realise Berghain et al are trying to protect themselves from the riff raff, but enforcing a stupid "techno uniform" and turning away half their potential customers for arbitrary reasons probably doesn't help their business.
Berghain is very elitist in this regard. There exist lots of other clubs in Berlin.
I've always heard this, but I got in first try and I was the least techno looking of the queue. And it was pretty crowded. In contrast to some other Berlin clubs that had an hours long line while having barely any people inside. Maybe I got lucky.
Berghain is a sex club though, no? It's not just a place to dance and drink. I'd never go there myself, but I kind of get the point of being selective.
Actually, Berghain does it pretty well. Usually the bouncers walk the line and already tell people when they definitely will not get in. This avoids a lot of drama at the door, and people don't have to wait needlessly and can still comfortably go someplace else.
Berghain is one of the most famous clubs in the world. It has and cultivates an underground image, which is why people want to go there in the first place. You don't need a "uniform", on the contrary, individualism is what will get you in without problems. Just don't be an obvious tourist who just wants to tick a box for their Berlin visit.
Berghain has created the problem of being a tourist magnet for itself by being exclusive. As someone who loves techno, I'd much rather everybody gets to join in and enjoy themselves instead of just those who meet the bar. As long as you establish rules, like no photos/videos. You can't "convert" people who don't get the experience.
>You don't need a "uniform",
Everybody says you need to wear black. Even the tourists have wisened up to that.
Look, if you just made it for everybody, it would no longer be a club with an underground image. Berghain is a tourist magnet because it simply is an unbelievable location straight out of a Mad Max movie, paired with a Funktion-One sound system that fits your head like a headphone, featuring the best techno DJs in the world, and you can spend your whole weekend there without ever leaving the club. They surely do not struggle financially, on the contrary, the owners are probably swimming in money and only still do it because it's fun.
Besides, let me say there's lots of other clubs in Berlin you can go to. The article is correct that there used to be much, much more, but the main issue for clubs is not attendance, but like pretty much in every big city: rising rent and neighbors who complain about noise and garbage.
>if you just made it for everybody, it would no longer be a club with an underground image.
It is clearly not underground because everybody knows about it. It only achieves the "image" through arbitrary discrimination. That is the least punk as you can get.
None of what you said makes Berghain great goes away by letting more people experience it. The sound system and DJs will still be there.
I guarantee if Berghain stopped trying to be techno Mecca, the riff raff would lose interest, and you wouldn't need the picky bouncers. There's a particular club I go to in London that this works perfectly well for.
I said "underground image". Go find an illegal rave if you want underground. Go to a punk dive bar if you want punk. Berghain simply wants to make sure that it's not overrun by tourists, because once that happens, the only thing you can do afterwards is close shop. At least it's not discrimination through money like in plenty of other clubs. You cannot buy a VIP table at Berghain. That's pretty refreshing.
In my experience there is no "right way to look" when going to Berghain, most people online have no idea what the club actually is and just keep repeating the same old tired clichees - like the fantasy that you have to be dressed all black or something to get in.
In my experience the bouncer just sees if you will have a good time at the party or not. And that is what they select on.
Once you worked some years at a club door you can see instantly who should get in and who shouldn't.
Clothing is an indicator but its not the important one. Its about the look in your eyes.
The German "underground" scene is just completely backwards and childish. They're so forward thinking and advanced that they've wrapped right around having experienced some sort of integer overflow and started caring deeply about how other people (strangers) dress all over again. Like being back at school. The "scene" is a joke.
No one in the scene cares deeply how you dress, where did you get that from?
I would advise to spend less time on social media and experience the real world before you comment on it.
It's unique to the German scene and I live in Berlin, I understand the scene thank you. Germany is unique in how predisposed with the superficial its "alternative" scene is, without any doubt. Spend less time in Germany less time on social media and more time in other countries and you may begin to notice this. If all you know is Germany then a lot of very strange behaviour will be normal to you.
If you ever worked a club door you would know that you can very quickly categorize people into "fits" or "doesn't fit".
It does not have anything to do with magical thinking or beliefs, its years of experience and a deep understanding of the culture and clientele that visits your venue.
Of course you don't have to participate if you don't like it, there are plenty of clubs (in Berlin too) where you just pay entry and thats it.
I’ll happily go out on a limb and say that people who believe they have acquired inerrant powers of scrying because somebody let them work the door somewhere are arrogant at best.
It’s really a great example of the narcissistic desire for power and control that drives the behavior of a lot of people in the scene.
Yes, bouncers can go on absurd power trips for no reason and get a kick out of flexing on the peons.
And yes, it is possible to quickly assess someones P(an issue) after a career of observing tens of thousands of people and whether or not they were an issue.
These things can both be true.
[And keep in mind a false-positive matters not-one-bit-at-all, whereas a false-negative is (quite literally) an issue.]
But the bouncers at Berghain aren't just there to keep troublemakers at bay like the bouncers at your local venue or, you know, almost any other club in Berlin.
We're supposed to believe they're engaged in some sort of vibe curation process to attain the perfect crowd for the night. There's this weird purity aspect to it that is more than a little problematic.
Given the endless endorsements in this very thread that club has the exact “vibe” they want, it seems the bouncers are doing a damn good job at their job.
It is the fool that tells the industry-proven expert that they know better.
Lots of people have been primed with the notion that Berghain is some sort of peak experience, so if they make it past the door when they visit Berlin, they're probably going to view the experience with rose-colored glasses.
It's amazing brand strategy but that doesn't mean it actually is the best thing going, of course.
I trust the Berliners I know (and those who have posted here with similar opinions) who don't view it quite so favorably. From them I hear it's a very good club but usually not worth the hassle of the lines and the arbitrary door policy.
This rings true with my own experience as someone who has been to Berghain multiple times over the years - I've never had a bad time, but it's gone downhill, and other Berlin clubs offer equivalent or better experiences without the annoying exclusivity.
The fetish scene has remarkably high numbers of people with autism and other behavioural disorders. I think it's because the scene is so open and accepting above all. You can be yourself.
Punk isn't punk anymore. When Google & other major corporations espouse the same core tenets of inclusivity, you're not rejecting or rebelling against anything. Perhaps Berghain and other exclusive clubs do not care about a 'punk' identity.
Just wearing black is not gonna get you into Berghain. The main criterion is unashamed indivual expression. If you are trying to get in by wearing a uniform you're not gonna have a good time (either in the queue or the club). I've only ever been in outfits that were colourful, and weird, and me.
Beyond the outfit you are also most likely to get in if you are clearly bringing your personal uniqueness and energy to the place rather than expecting an experience, and if you show respect for the culture, everyone else present, and that you are able to handle something out of the ordinary.
Are you gonna have a good time in there and not ruin anyone else's time? You'll get in.
I've been to Berghain quite a few times, each time I wore the same thing. black dress shoes no socks, black knee length "cut jean" shorts, and a white dress shirt 3 buttons undone. Never had any issues, I got the impression your vibe matters a lot more than how you're dressed? I love Berghain, it's great spot, crazy how kind and fun everyone is when you're in there.
Agree completely about the vibe. Outfit is really just a way to read vibe, but not at all the only one. That outfit sounds like you weren't trying to be anything someone else expects, which is precisely the kind of thing that demonstrates you would be a good fit.
The culture in Berghain (and many Berlin clubs) is amazing - and part of the reason is the selectivity!
> You don't need a "uniform", on the contrary, individualism is what will get you in without problems.
This in incredibly ironic. What if I like wearimg denim jeans, a smart shirt and brown shoes? That'll be considered not individualist enough and I won't get in?
You do not need to wear a uniform to get into Berghain. The bouncers, above all, are looking for interesting people who they believe will add something to the mix rather than just go there to consume and gawk. There really is not much to conform to, other than some contextual awareness of the fact that you're going to a techno venue and there is a certain culture behind that, e.g. flashy logos or ostentatious clothing is generally frowned upon, and you should be dressed comfortably enough to actually rave. Most importantly, I think, you need to give off a vibe of freedom and non judgement, the things going on in Berghain are not for everyone. Elon didn't get in, and frankly it would probably be a buzzkill if he did.
Elon didn’t get in because letting a celebrity billionaire in would be death for any Berlin club.
It would make the scene’s champagne Marxism just a little too obvious for comfort.
It has nothing to do with his vibe. A non-celebrity ultra high net worth individual would get the red carpet treatment. Berghain guestlist isn’t at all hard to get.
The only time I've ever gotten thrown out of a club I was thrown out of a London club "for being drunk" despite not having had a drink yet (and nothing else either), and just standing calmly by the bar. I think they'd just decided there was too much of a gender imbalance already and decided to throw out a number of guys, as I wasn't the only one. I take some pleasure from the fact that club went out of business a couple of years later. Central London clubs can be really brutal and arbitrary if you're a guy in particular (but certainly not only).
Outside of Central London things quickly get more reasonable.
You ever been to a club in Berlin?
Its not about exclusivity at all.
I get that it might look like that from the outside or with a more american cultural background.
At most places you dont have to wait long - provided you dont come at the peak hour when everyone else shows up. Plan smart and you wait almost not all all, and there is plenty of parties starting/going at all times of the day; so you dont have to wait until late as well...
Europe in general, and Germany in particular is getting old. Clubbing is predominantly a young person’s pass time. All youth oriented activities will increasingly wither there as the years advance.
I said “predominantly” it’s for the young, not “just” for the young. As people age they tend to have greater demands on their time, they have on-average lower energy levels, they’re more likely to have injuries or mobility problems, they trend away from pursuing instant gratification, they trend towards earlier bedtimes and earlier waking, etc. Not everyone follows all of those trends to the same degree or at the same ages but the trends are real and they systematically whittle away at the older crowd participation rates in active/sensual pursuits. Any such pursuits in a rapidly aging society will wither commensurately.
A few years ago I spent a week in Berlin, intending to party after having heard its reputation. The clubs were a parade of "oh, you don't know who's DJing? Can't come in" and "you're wearing a scarf, can't come in" (it was December, so cold and presumably not peak partying season). At Berghain it was something like "sorry, private event." Fuck Berlin clubs, if they want to turn down customers trying to give them money, let them succeed at their attempted suicide.
(Having said that, while having what was supposed to be my last drink of the entire trip on my last night, I met an Austrian guy who told me about some club in walking distance he swore was good, so we went and it in fact was so good I missed my flight the next day, so it's not all clubs that are raging dickbags to would-be customers at the door, the exceptions are just hard to find.)
Incredibly thankful for Berlin bouncers for doing their job properly, and not letting people in who think that as long as they "give money" everything should spread open for them, and who don't even bother to know what the main theme and focus on the event (who's DJing). Exactly the kind of people I'd like to avoid when partying in a techno club.
Yes, my comment did not advocate for anyone to stop the clubs from their attempted suicide, in fact the opposite, it advocated for letting them succeed.
Very difficult to imagine you would notice in the middle of a night club who around you does and doesn't know the lineup for the night. Amusing to think about, though.
Next time try to enjoy the music and don't worry so much about what other people around you are up to!
I can enjoy music at home or at any private space. One of the main ideas behind clubbing is to enjoy the music in a community of like-minded people and fostering that sense of connection and belonging.
In the past it would occur naturally, because electronic music was a niche thing. With raising popularity, door policies had to be implemented to maintain this community. Now that it's mainstream, clueless outsiders start coming in telling people who built the scene what to do.
Quite similar to what happened to tech and the Internet in fact. The club scene is in its Eternal September now.
the article really about intellectual decline of US journalists. The whole article is " they didn't let my friends to enter I'll write them bad article"
"Berlin clubs are closing soon!" has been, for a long time, a staple of journalists desperate to get some views. They just play on readers' emotions.
For a while the pretext was "neighbors are complaining about noise", but that got yanked by new regulations (i.e. making clubs "places of high culture" so they can't be attacked easily).
Now it's about declining revenue, yet clubs are still full. What will be next?
during the final stages of covid you could only buy tickets beforehand and therefore there wasn't really a hard door to get though. It sucked and destroyed really any unique character. For example, usually sissy is more colourful, more festival-like, easy going but being there during the last civid-stages it sometimes felt like an after-work event. With young professionals who look like they are being spat out of co-working spaces, wearing chinos and all.
I used to resent the door policies but after this experience (it really destroyed the atmosphere!), I am glad they exist.
> With young professionals who look like they are being spat out of co-working spaces, wearing chinos and all.
Oh god, the horror. How did you cope? Did you still manage to express yourself with these soul sucking chino wearers nearby? It's a good thing that indiviualism is so non-judgemental huh.
After the experience during covid, I think that dress-codes also serve also a social function besides the purely aesthetic/vibe. You communicate to the door that you paid attention and know what's going on and how to behave. It's not perfect but we really can't do better I think. These nightclubs are a safe-space for many to express themselves and it is important to keep it that way.
Interested to know what, if any, the affect of digital media being almost impossible sell, and/or, streaming 'royalties' going mostly to the corporate streamers, has had on new and/or young artists trying earn enough through sales to put on the kind of light shows/performances/nights described herewith. Does one feed/starve the other? Lament.
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[ 5.4 ms ] story [ 337 ms ] threadAnd SF is in way worse shape.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble
Or I guess maybe you were referring to the value of their houses drop, in which case, probably, and I personally wouldn't be very troubled if I saw that.
Rich kids on Adderall who dream of startups and VC rounds do not qualify, no matter how much they pretend not to be finance jerk-offs in shorts and sandals, reality is not on the side of SF being the center of anything like this.
Any Rustbelt city has 100% more chances than SF and California in general.
I'd also argue that, by missing the boat (pun intended) on containerization and allowing the Port of Oakland to poach most of the shipping traffic, the city's original main economic engine shut down, and that the dotcom booms aside, SF's default mode for the past 60-70 years is "wretched hive of scum and villainy". The Summer of Love, the first counterculture to be called by that name, arose in Haight-Ashbury because the Haight was a slum at the time and a group of broke hippies could often band together to afford the rent on a house there.
Also if you look at my exact wording: I don't say it's going to happen, I say I would not be surprised to see it happen.
Clearly a culture worth preserving!
Maybe the clubs could do something to make it a bad environment to make TikTok videos, like bombing the place with extremely bright flashing lights at a frequency that humans can’t see but that interferes with most phone cameras?
https://hackaday.com/2020/02/28/using-ir-leds-to-hide-in-pla...
That plus Faraday mesh in the walls could help.
--Adults since the second generation of humans was born
And there are areas in Berghain that are more like a sex/fetish club than a night club.
I've been to parties that have had signs on the bathroom banning acts that would make a vanilla person blush.
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/11nll0r/my_gir...
The stickers you see on the walls could have accumulated over month. The system usually works fine and you rarely see anyone taking photos. Certainly way less than in clubs without those stickers.
Kids these days may not need those scenes as much these days, since they're more open to people who are different. Much of the early rave scene was for people that didn't fit in, for whatever reason.
You'd wake up in a tree somewhere and everyone was friendly as hell. Volunteers would pick up afterwards.
Then a new mayor came in and ruined it all, locked it down, limited the area and basically killed the spirit of it.
I was younger sure but it was so much better. Applies to lots of things that get ruined.
Or is there some point where you think cohort "value in tradition" was different?
It's possible for them to believe that the techno/rave/DJ scene is worse now, and that other similar culture/social activities done now are not.
SF had many more fun venues when SOMA was underutilized industrial real estate available to promoters and artists. A counterculture needs cheap space.
A promoter friend told me after the first dot-com crash that half the twentysomethings had left SF and the other half were working their butts off to survive.
That might have happened in some particular scenes, but:
- the exact same thing kept on going, maybe shifted a bit to more underground things; I don't know what type of parties you are referring to, but the stuff I frequent has been using the same principle for a long time: it is often so that one cannot even see the DJ because they're covered in the decoration and/or the DJ is in the back of the place and people dance to the speakers in the front
- not all concerts are the same. I get what you mean about 'DJ in the spotlight' which is just somewhat saddening especially if they're just pushing some buttons or even faking it, but at least for me there is something about proper interaction between DJ or band and the crowd which I also really like. I have fond memories of small parties where we'd be going crazy in front of the DJ because they'd build this really nice story in the mix where we'd knew what was coming and they know we knew and that would lead to an even better feeling of togetherness. So even though they're in the front they'd actually be part of the crowd as well.
there's your problem, you're not there.
there are other things happening in the crowd. all you see are tall guys with the longest arms holding up their phones taking videos of other phones.
If you want to look into this more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WauGLIefYrg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk6wqKqygDw
watch with subs if needed.
Some fucking great times.
Fucked my hearing though, wear earplugs at the rave, kids.
There seems to be a psycho-social aspect to these generational agitations, whatever new thing the young ones bring will always be seen in the worst possible way by their elders in every generation.
Hardcore shows at squats still live on though, and people are there to enjoy for sure. But that's because if you don't like the music and setting you would leave pretty quickly.
I tend to think this kind of self-filtering system is more effective than bouncers at the door, but at the same time, consumers be consumin, and they glom onto faddy subcultures just long enough to completely hollow them out. There's arguments to be made for curating the spaces that art resides and thrives in.
If a genre, or ideal, "curates" to the next generation, is it even still that ideal? Is that not still just fading away, or at worst, selling out?
In my experience in the scene, these types of people enter these spaces looking to be seen and aren't really there for the music (think taking flash photos of themselves in front of the DJs, taking up space on the dancefloor not dancing or vibing to the music, etc).
I have strong opinions on this, but don't get me wrong, there's a bit of gatekeeping for a good reason. The point is that people who are actually interested in the scene are more likely to respect it and contribute to the involved communities. Whereas a tik-tok raver's interest is likely fleeting and uninformed about the spaces they occupy.
Don’t get me wrong, I still like those kind of partying as well from time to time, but treating an average rave as a dress up dancing is way too much work for me. Also underground scene pretty much everywhere in the world is extremely alive and doing well, but became so much more protective of itself for the same reason. Why would you go somewhere at 2am with a chance of overcrowding and being filmed, when you can go somewhere where you can dance till 6am, albeit only 60% of the fun?
I remember people at that time complaining that it was bullshit the DJ wasn't behind a curtain like the good ol days. Even being able to see the DJ made the party too much like a rock concert and "it was ruining the scene"
There was a whole era of conversation like this that was against spinning compact discs and cdjs. A real DJ spins vinyl. CDs sound too cold and sterile and they are "ruining the scene".
When people started spinning mp3s? lol, that was apocalyptic and totally "ruining the scene".
20 years from now there will be something new "ruining the scene" unlike the good old days when people put a lot of effort into their outfit and crafted videos to post on tiktok to try to promote "the scene".
Partygoers with cameras reduce this relationship to simple consumerism, largely consumption of content. The more passive attendees there are, the larger the pressure is on the venue to make or break the party. Tiktok ravers are just more egregious iteration of the thing.
But yeah, we definitely complained about instagram a decade ago as well. Maybe we are getting old!
Just saying, destroyed? Come on.
I linked two short documentaries in another comment, but basically:
tik tok kids don't adhere to safer drug use at all. Outfits and photos are not the worst thing. Overdoses are on a high. At the same time, looking out for each other is not something they tend to do. Especially at "illegal" raves, we have a very big problem of Gen Z not helping folks who feel unwell, leading to people dying on the floor. This is not a "the new generation is shit" argument. I despise tik tok ravers, not the gen z per se.
> There is a huge difference as well for lgbtq people at these places, the inclusivity has dramatically improved.
I don't understand where you're coming from. In Germany this was never a problem. Nobody gave a shit who you are and how you're dressed.
That is the total opposite to what is happening in German clubs
Otherwise it’s a coin flip unless you’re clearly intoxicated, belligerent, etc.
Same as it ever was. You just didn’t recognize it because you were younger and in clubland youth is the only status currency that’s zero effort to acquire.
you guys can act nostalgic about $5 cover charges at farmhouses in the middle of the woods, but that stuff was objectively horrible. smoke filled, counterculture only people, dingy.
I love the crowd that comes to these $600 music festivals, they're sexy and maintain good jobs or wealth, good support systems, can talk deeply about many technical topics, second hand smoke is sparse, and the production value increased to match!
oh no, phones. like what? this didn't start post pandemic. you have a missing decade and I'm not even going to ask.
edit: saw some of your other comments on this topic, this category of person is a big matter of discussion in Germany it seems. I think its silly to just put Tik Tok as an adjective on everything you don't like because I see that in other fields too. There are certain behaviors it seems some people are doing that are different than the ones you highlighted.
> I think its silly to just put Tik Tok as an adjective on everything you don't like because I see that in other fields too. There are certain behaviors it seems some people are doing that are different than the ones you highlighted.
Well, I do because it's the only thing I can say something about. It's not a category I put on everyone I don't like but it's a term that's shared and quite clearly defined in a very narrow discussion about techno and the pandemic. It only partially relates to the overall tik tok consumerism discussion.
These clubs were great while the city was struggling, but now that it’s not, I can see why people don’t wish to tolerate the negative externalities associated with them. Hopefully most clubs can find a way to integrate into today’s Berlin. Some may not be able to and disappear. Cities aren’t static beings.
I’ve also realized I prefer underground parties or small social gatherings to 3-hour lines, 40 euro entrance fees, and uncertain door policies.
Also, didn't it occur to anyone that charging regulars more to offset loss of business from casuals would drive the regulars away as well?
Perhaps, but it seems that those "selective" clubs have given a bad reputation to all clubs.
What kind of prep is required to go out to drink and fund someone else's business?
I will never be going as I am too old and too busy for the "scene" so please explain it to me in laymen terminology.
Why not? I was at a heavy metal concert in Shibuya last May, and the place was full of 50-something guys in full office suits. It was a Monday, so I guess they just finished work and went directly to the concert. It was quite amusing to be honest...
It's unfortunate that the rock and metal crowd is mostly middle-aged people these days; the young people seem to be listening to rather bland pop music, idol music, etc.
Being exclusive is really against the ethos of techno in Berlin. The "exclusivity" at the door is usually about achieving a fun mix of people and keeping out the ones who cannot behave.
As an occasional clubber in Berlin, these "best" things are ridiculous. The "best" kebab place with the long queue is nothing special at all, and Berghain is, apart from the building and the (mostly gay) sex stuff (which don't do much for me) a club like many others. It's never been my favorite - the vibe can be surprisingly aggressive and the music is often not that good for my taste. I used to go there for specific acts or along with friends only. Haven't bothered for years now. Nowadays it's also become expensive, cashing in on its dubious status.
There is a thing that the "best" kebab place and the "best" club have in common: kebab places and clubs are both very good in Berlin, so if you go to the one that the tourist guide / TikTok recommended, you're probably going to have a good time - but maybe you don't know that there are many other just as good or better places.
As for how restaurants compare to making food at home, I don't think almost any restaurant can do better than a good chef at home. Someone at home can concentrate on making a top-quality meal for one or two people (maybe a couple more at the most), and doesn't have any real time pressures, or needing to share kitchen resources with meals made for dozens of other customers. It's pretty much the ideal environment for cooking, assuming 1) the equipment available is good and 2) the chef is skilled enough. Of course, #2 is a big one, so while some people who are confident in their cooking skills can claim "I can cook better meals than most Michelin-starred restaurants!", lots of other people can't cook meals that require more skill than "put in microwave for 4 minutes" so most restaurants can easily beat that.
I was rejected at Kater Blau once though, for who knows what reason. It's the way it works, if you get bumped you can get angry at the system or just forget your ego and go elsewhere and enjoy the night.
My experience of KitKat is that unwanted attention of any kind (which depending on the night might not be super rare) is quickly shut down by the people in the immediate area before the staff even get close, and then the staff respond very quickly to it, especially if someone who is a regular calls attention.
The scene is prone to issues and what we do in my town is not allowing new people unless they have a fet account and/or accompanied by a regular. There's also a blacklist of known offenders. Not sure if that's the case over there.
I really hope I can visit it one day but I'm really afraid of travelling all the way there and being refused..
Ps regarding Lindemann I'm not a big fan of cancelling people before the facts come out. I absolutely abhor abuse but I'm also very much in favour of innocent until proven guilty.
It wouldn't really be a risk of him misbehaving because there's so many eyes on him. But I know it's a tough line to draw. Glad I'm not a club manager.
Traveling to Asia, South America and Europe to meet with electronic artists I've never had any interest in attempting to go to the segregated clubs of Berlin. I find it offensive.
There's plenty of ones that don't discriminate.
Your other options are (a) let anyone in and you get a**** and total dilution of cultural values (quick death of the institution) or (b) it's a private party and you're not invited.
For accessible and good, you can stay on your toes and find new, smaller clubs and scenes that haven't had time to die yet, but that's its own exclusiveness: if you don't know, you don't know.
I'd argue the majority of cliques and scenes are extremely accepting and people self filter. Having a discriminating door guy is just being an asshole.
But this approach just wouldn't benefit some popular dance clubs. Without a solid door policy clubs would be stuffed with people who come there for wrong reasons. To pick up girls, to get drunk, to visit an attraction for the sake of a visit (not because they enjoy techno music), to get into a fight, etc etc. Have you ever been to a poorly managed club? They don't have a community, don't focus on a holistic clubbing experience, have many people with really bad vibes. Would you want to stay there for a night and the next day (night time + day time raves)?
> underground cliques
Let's be honest, techno is not underground in Berlin, these clubs are a massive tourist attraction. Berghain is not a 50 person dive bar in SOMA.
In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I bet I'm not.
Btw, KitKatClub doesn't do that and they're equally famous.
Door policy is discrimination only in the sense that the very few people at the door have to make a swift judgment on whether your group will fit in. Can this be upsetting? Sure!
> In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first.
By this logic liquor stores in the US also discriminate based on person's nationality since they check the ID.
KitKatClub has a strict dress code policy for their sex-oriented events.
As to the other point, you can separate the process to avoid the kind of blanket discrimination I think we can all agree is unethical. I bet they don't make the slightest effort. It's probably one guy that checks your ID and says yes/no and one guy that takes money. It could be 3 instead of 2 to avoid, just to be crazy, saying no to all the Jewish names, but it's not.
Next time I'm in Berlin, I'll try to remember to take a clicker with me and stand outside the place. I bet you'll start to notice a few interesting patterns that America has quite a few laws against. I've only heard them to be extremely proud of their bias so I'd be surprised if you didn't start seeing just classic discrimination because that's what humans appear to naturally do unless they work really really hard at it or have some structures to prevent it.
Community and scale do not mix. If the founders truly cared about community they would have wound the place up in about 2010 and done something new.
But once people experience a bit of success greed inevitably takes over…
Why is this so hard to understand?
However, all of them are fairly self-selecting in different ways that I think are difficult or impossible to achieve in a long-running, ostensibly "for everyone" institution like a techno club.
You can be exclusive for exclusive-sake and you'll attract the dolce & gabana crowd and maybe that's what they want - people who will spend $500 on alcohol.
But as far as techno I've met all the Belleville 3, two of them twice and each time it's been at tiny spots with like $0-$5 cover.
I've even been to warehouse parties with producers big enough to have Wikipedia pages that are just honor systems where you promise to venmo the promoter and there is no door guy. Highschool kids could just walk in doing hard drugs and to be honest they probably did.
But then again, there's certainly pop techno and non-pop techno. Tiestos YouTube has like 3.7 billion views. That's a different problem than say Legowelt with 200k.
Pay attention to the downvotes, and browse HN with "showdead" turned on, and you'll see that HN stays the way it is in large part due to aggressive exclusion of those who can't stick to society norms up to an including the metaphorical "door guy" (bans).
Self-filtering is a start. But pretty much all cliques and scenes also have lines you will get ostracised if you go past. The extent of their reaction if you will vary, and sure, there's a difference between proactively judging you based on appearance and retroactively judging you by actions, but in some scenes your appearance is part of the game. That sucks if you don't fit in, but it also sucks for those who want something specific if you're that one person who can't self filter and insist on ruing the experience for everyone else.
It's a very important difference.
If I, just some random dude, submitted a correct mathematical paper solving a millennium or Hilbert puzzle to a prestigious journal, for instance, they would publish it regardless of the fact that I'm not so and so from Princeton. They wouldn't exclude my valued contribution.
Discrimination would be me submitting the correct solution but first having to find and tack on so and so from Princeton as the author in order to even get considered.
Now I'd probably have to wrangle them a bit to convince them, but that's just credulity, not discrimination.
That's quite different than say Hattie McDaniel, a black actress, being excluded from the premiere of her movie, Gone with the Wind and unable to accept her Oscar on stage because of discrimination.
Discrimination exists regardless of contribution for reasons ultimately unrelated to the nature of the contribution
The specific comment you replied to that I replied to did not argue for the kind of discrimination you're talking about here either.
I'm absolutely sure that the kind of discrimination you're talking about is also an issue with quite a few clubs, but they are two very different issues.
You can tell me it's some vibe check but it's structurally set up to discriminate based on classic markers and there's been intentionally zero remediations to avoid it.
In fact, many reports of xenophobia, antisemitism and racism persist, just Google it, it's everywhere.
That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our institutions in the US in the name of inclusion and not just have better intentions.
Berghain and Tresor can to whatever the fuck they want, I don't care. But let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it magically turns to something else based on wishes and dreams.
> That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our institutions in the US in the name of inclusion and not just have better intentions.
Are you suggesting that worked?
> But let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it magically turns to something else based on wishes and dreams.
The problem is that you appear to call a spade something else entirely, and attack a position nobody has taken. I note that you have expanded on specific issues and pointed out another club that has specific policies that can be easily conformed to elsewhere, and that was a much more productive line of argument to take.
Yes and it is a pretty good description of most Berliners. As a capital, that has mainly lived the last 30 years by sucking tremendous money out of the other federal states, as a city that has little industry and businesses left, as a place which administration has become dysfunctional, it gives the stupid arrogant little Berliner a feeling or superiority if he gets into a club but others must stay outside.
And before you donwvote me, for many years I loved this city. I caught a last glimpse of the post reunification Berlin, when basically all the good clubs had no license or whatever. Bars and clubs at the craziest places. Took the police years to close this down. And today, if you walk through Prenzlauer Berg or Oranienburger str. OMG.
The counterargument to your point is somewhat self-evident: all the great nightclubs in Berlin that have way more relaxed entrances than Berghain that aren't filled with assholes and aren't completely diluted of cultural values.
Often times it's the exclusivity that attracts the assholes who normally don't listen to that kind of music anyway.
I've got no interest in discriminating against the discriminators
In fact, when I got in one club a very cute german girl tried to talk to me on the dancefloor. But I didn't speak any German and she got angry, shouting "aaauuggh!! tourists!!!"
Also, for the clubs that forbid alcohol (hard drugs only!), they will refuse you if you are caught drinking in line or are visibly drunk.
Also, I was told to keep my mouth shut as they will sometimes refuse you if you speak English
At least this is how it was about 13 years ago. My friend was a self-described and un-ironic "hipster", who kept his finger on the pulse of the local underground, and of course he lived in Kreuzberg
I think speaking English in itself was never a problem to get in. But of course the tourist vibes get stronger if the person doesn't know the "definition of cool" that is expected and appreciated in that particular club.
Take this example [1] of a tourist they probably let in by accident and regretted it. :)
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy9GregPIA4
Some of them are open for example only between 2am and 8am with a nice variety of other drugs available.
The thing about Berlin clubs is they care very strongly about the vibe and being cool, and/or protecting those deep in psychedlics or other stuff. Aggressive, drunk assholes ruin that so they are verboten in some spots. The bars are all happily stocked with non-alcoholic selections. It's not America where you need to make money at all costs fuck the consequences.
Note that these are the same places that will reputedly dump you out the back door if you overdo it or OD, take from that what you will.
Also, I think you underestimate just how much the party scene loves Club Mate over there. That is what we drank instead. It pairs really nicely with molly!
I moved to Berlin to escape the political headaches in Poland while still being close to my family and friends, with no specific goal of partying here, as I've never liked clubs and dancing in general. But from hanging out with expats and sometimes joining them to themed parties in clubs, my takeout is that you have to spend a lot of money on clothing and appearance to show the bouncers that you really belong. Of course places like Berghain are completely random in that matter and the way you dress doesn't change anything (unless you really look like a tourist, I guess), but for most part it's a rich kids club.
don't be drunk or on the way to getting drunk.
#1 pay attention. be there & listen.
#2 don't be too cool for this. in that moment, he's head of security and you might be a reason to call the police or someone who'll cost the crowd too much attention for no return.
that's it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSSQJpICzTA
If they let in everyone who wants to go, it would stop being the thing that it is (which is why it is valuable and sought after). People don’t go there only for the building and sound system (though both are top notch). It’s the experience enabled by the specific people who are there (and, perhaps more importantly, who are not).
Many people check in all of their clothing at coat check. You can have gay or straight sex in most parts of the club. I’ve been involved in BDSM scenes in different parts of the venue. Nobody leers, nobody harasses you. There aren’t generally people wasted drunk, there are no fights.
If it were not a microcosm containing the specific scene it exists to support, and they just let in the general public indiscriminately, it would be no different than drinking in the park. Anyone can buy a world class soundsystem and book fancy techno DJs. Not anyone can recreate Berghain.
> Even Berghain, typically an anomaly because it draws crowds from around the world, has raised its cover charge to deal with rising costs. He thinks fewer Europeans are making quick clubbing trips to the city due to the financial hit of the pandemic.
As a student, I had time and patience to look for another club for being denied entrance because I wasn't wearing leather BDSM harnesses after waiting in line for 2 hours. Now not so much.
This is good news though, now that the economic pressure is on, maybe it's a good time for non-fashionistas to go raving in Berlin again, though I doubt the euro is stronger than scene snobism.
As someone who isn't white I can't stand clubs and the thought of being rejected because of how I look. It happened to me 90% of the time when I was young trying to enter these clubs, so new I just go to shows where I pre-paid my tickets. I haven't stepped foot in a club for years. The racism at the door of these prestigious clubs is/was simply insane.
I was there recently and the city felt much more subdued. Things got cleaned up. Lots of new housing. A bit more gentrified and quiet.
I’m guessing the crowds aged out.
If that's how the nightclub business works, it's better for the government to stay away from subsidizing them. Let them run their business in their own way - but without taxpayer funding.
The truth is that those clubs are more elitist than the opera house.
And on the weekends when the divas are not singing, you can see Khruangbin ...
Most operagoers are adults, but that's about it.
I’ve been there a million times and even one person who doesn’t know techno and the way our scene works can ruin a few dozen square meters of dancefloor with boorish leering.
If you want to party in a sea of drunken tourists because they let everyone in, there are plenty of other clubs that aren’t nearly as protective of their dance floor vibe. Berghain is the exception, not the rule.
There's at least a degree of resistance towards letting in too much of the American ethos, or at least in trying to make sure that the American tourist trying to get into the club is capable of hanging and respecting the hedonism within, as opposed to going balls to the wall for the sake of going balls to the wall.
But such is life I guess.
Where did you get this from? Its more the generation that started clubbing is now all grown up, complains about the noise, and drives up property prices.
I'm not sure this guy could be more pretentious if he tried. Maybe they should consider that this kind of attitude might be part of the problem.
[0] https://aslice.com/
Berlin has elevated snobbism to an art form.
In London we have some excellent clubs that don't care whatsoever about what you're wearing and everybody has a great time. You buy a ticket, you get in, simple as that.
Berghain is very elitist in this regard. There exist lots of other clubs in Berlin.
Berghain is one of the most famous clubs in the world. It has and cultivates an underground image, which is why people want to go there in the first place. You don't need a "uniform", on the contrary, individualism is what will get you in without problems. Just don't be an obvious tourist who just wants to tick a box for their Berlin visit.
>You don't need a "uniform",
Everybody says you need to wear black. Even the tourists have wisened up to that.
That is false.
Look, if you just made it for everybody, it would no longer be a club with an underground image. Berghain is a tourist magnet because it simply is an unbelievable location straight out of a Mad Max movie, paired with a Funktion-One sound system that fits your head like a headphone, featuring the best techno DJs in the world, and you can spend your whole weekend there without ever leaving the club. They surely do not struggle financially, on the contrary, the owners are probably swimming in money and only still do it because it's fun.
Besides, let me say there's lots of other clubs in Berlin you can go to. The article is correct that there used to be much, much more, but the main issue for clubs is not attendance, but like pretty much in every big city: rising rent and neighbors who complain about noise and garbage.
It is clearly not underground because everybody knows about it. It only achieves the "image" through arbitrary discrimination. That is the least punk as you can get.
None of what you said makes Berghain great goes away by letting more people experience it. The sound system and DJs will still be there.
I guarantee if Berghain stopped trying to be techno Mecca, the riff raff would lose interest, and you wouldn't need the picky bouncers. There's a particular club I go to in London that this works perfectly well for.
In my experience there is no "right way to look" when going to Berghain, most people online have no idea what the club actually is and just keep repeating the same old tired clichees - like the fantasy that you have to be dressed all black or something to get in.
In my experience the bouncer just sees if you will have a good time at the party or not. And that is what they select on. Once you worked some years at a club door you can see instantly who should get in and who shouldn't. Clothing is an indicator but its not the important one. Its about the look in your eyes.
that sounds so lame tbh. i thought most people left behind this social scarcity shit after sixth form.
Almost like actual adults who still sport non-drug-addled brains should run away as quickly as possible.
It does not have anything to do with magical thinking or beliefs, its years of experience and a deep understanding of the culture and clientele that visits your venue.
Of course you don't have to participate if you don't like it, there are plenty of clubs (in Berlin too) where you just pay entry and thats it.
And thats fine! I do too. But to claim it's impossible just because we are not good at it would be absurd.
It’s really a great example of the narcissistic desire for power and control that drives the behavior of a lot of people in the scene.
And yes, it is possible to quickly assess someones P(an issue) after a career of observing tens of thousands of people and whether or not they were an issue.
These things can both be true.
[And keep in mind a false-positive matters not-one-bit-at-all, whereas a false-negative is (quite literally) an issue.]
We're supposed to believe they're engaged in some sort of vibe curation process to attain the perfect crowd for the night. There's this weird purity aspect to it that is more than a little problematic.
It is the fool that tells the industry-proven expert that they know better.
It's amazing brand strategy but that doesn't mean it actually is the best thing going, of course.
I trust the Berliners I know (and those who have posted here with similar opinions) who don't view it quite so favorably. From them I hear it's a very good club but usually not worth the hassle of the lines and the arbitrary door policy.
This rings true with my own experience as someone who has been to Berghain multiple times over the years - I've never had a bad time, but it's gone downhill, and other Berlin clubs offer equivalent or better experiences without the annoying exclusivity.
From what I see a lot of people have these desires but rarely act on them. People often tell me in confidence when I mention what I do.
I think it's a lot more normative than people think.
Punk isn't punk anymore. When Google & other major corporations espouse the same core tenets of inclusivity, you're not rejecting or rebelling against anything. Perhaps Berghain and other exclusive clubs do not care about a 'punk' identity.
Beyond the outfit you are also most likely to get in if you are clearly bringing your personal uniqueness and energy to the place rather than expecting an experience, and if you show respect for the culture, everyone else present, and that you are able to handle something out of the ordinary.
Are you gonna have a good time in there and not ruin anyone else's time? You'll get in.
The culture in Berghain (and many Berlin clubs) is amazing - and part of the reason is the selectivity!
There is absolutely nothing underground about Berghain and that fake ass techno revival, not since the last 15 years.
Not true. I have never seen or heard anything like this to happen at the Berghain queue.
This in incredibly ironic. What if I like wearimg denim jeans, a smart shirt and brown shoes? That'll be considered not individualist enough and I won't get in?
It would make the scene’s champagne Marxism just a little too obvious for comfort.
It has nothing to do with his vibe. A non-celebrity ultra high net worth individual would get the red carpet treatment. Berghain guestlist isn’t at all hard to get.
That's literally all they're known for. It's their whole business model. "Don't come because you probably won't get in" -> everyone tries to get in
Outside of Central London things quickly get more reasonable.
Honestly I’m surprised how that business model has been so effective this far, I guess people do love the feeling of exclusivity from making the cut
I said “predominantly” it’s for the young, not “just” for the young. As people age they tend to have greater demands on their time, they have on-average lower energy levels, they’re more likely to have injuries or mobility problems, they trend away from pursuing instant gratification, they trend towards earlier bedtimes and earlier waking, etc. Not everyone follows all of those trends to the same degree or at the same ages but the trends are real and they systematically whittle away at the older crowd participation rates in active/sensual pursuits. Any such pursuits in a rapidly aging society will wither commensurately.
At least from my experience, they tend to be a lot more fun. Clubs tend to be too much about showing off to my taste.
(Having said that, while having what was supposed to be my last drink of the entire trip on my last night, I met an Austrian guy who told me about some club in walking distance he swore was good, so we went and it in fact was so good I missed my flight the next day, so it's not all clubs that are raging dickbags to would-be customers at the door, the exceptions are just hard to find.)
Next time try to enjoy the music and don't worry so much about what other people around you are up to!
In the past it would occur naturally, because electronic music was a niche thing. With raising popularity, door policies had to be implemented to maintain this community. Now that it's mainstream, clueless outsiders start coming in telling people who built the scene what to do.
Quite similar to what happened to tech and the Internet in fact. The club scene is in its Eternal September now.
What other to expect?
For a while the pretext was "neighbors are complaining about noise", but that got yanked by new regulations (i.e. making clubs "places of high culture" so they can't be attacked easily).
Now it's about declining revenue, yet clubs are still full. What will be next?
It's a moderation problem, and if you don't have the right "vibes" you don't get in.
It's arbitrary? Yes. Prone to false positives? Yes. Does it work? Also yes.
That's how clubs maintain their unique identity.
I used to resent the door policies but after this experience (it really destroyed the atmosphere!), I am glad they exist.
Oh god, the horror. How did you cope? Did you still manage to express yourself with these soul sucking chino wearers nearby? It's a good thing that indiviualism is so non-judgemental huh.
And paying to get into places where you couldn't get otherwise (by "vibes" only) is enough to tell you're out of place.
Elon Musk tried to enter Berghain and was refused; Kanye West tried to jump the line at Mustafa and was sent back.