Of course it's true its better than crashing. It's just if we go up the chain of events perhaps better restraints or a checklist could have prevented this altogether. I wonder if they do post-mortems in logistics
"I wonder if aviators do post-flight debriefs." Good gravy. This is like your nontechnical relative saying "my cousin is good with computers; how hard can programming be?"
Once they sign for the aircraft, the pilot in command is legally responsible for all aspects of safe aircraft operation regardless of who did what work before.
If it makes you feel better, owing to kerosene being highly volatile, the conventional wisdom is that at or above 5,000 feet something like 98 percent of it will have evaporated by the time the remainder reaches earth, by which point it will have been spread out over a large area.
I don't see why they need to land immediately for every little fist fight. Very abusive parent vibes. Like okay you made a little mistake, now we have to ruin the whole day because of it; i.e. "look what you made me do". Didn't anyone learn anything from the failure of zero-tolerance policies in schools?
Let me introduce you to a major terrorist incident that involved using planes as guided missiles, and then you can decide whether or not the aviation community takes in-flight violence too seriously.
This is the Hacker News version of an end user going "I don't get what's so hard about programming."
I'm not sure that tracks (although this entire thread has nothing to do with the article). I'm having difficulty coming up with a hypothetical situation involving a "fist fight" that ends in a "major terrorist incident", but only if the plane isn't turned around. I'd love to hear one.
I think the "zero tolerance" analogy may be a good one, in that it absolves people on the scene from making decisions.
If you think a qualified airline pilot in command, who in all likelihood has significant military as well as civilian aviation experience, needs to be "absolved from having to make decisions," you're just broadcasting your ignorance of the subject for the entire world to see.
"Programming isn't that hard; my little brother is good with computers, too." That's the level you're talking at here.
I'll happily recant that statement if you're asserting that the pilot evaluates the situation, and doesn't just follow codified airline policy. "Absolves" was a bad choice of wording in any case, perhaps I should say "prevents from using their own judgment."
It sounds like you're in the industry. I'm genuinely curious, what sort of thinking goes into evaluating whether to turn the flight around after an altercation? I understand the idea of minimizing harm to passengers and flight crew, but you mentioned "using planes as guided missiles," so it sounds like the consideration is more about the plane crashing?
You may find that it's particularly difficult to get police onto the plane to arrest the people who are beating the crap out of each other and take them down to the station if the plane is in the air. An in-air brawl is obviously dangerous for the participants, but also anyone nearby who might catch a leg or elbow, or for the flight crew whose job descriptions don't include physically restraining violent passengers.
> I know it's frowned upon to ask people if they read the article but, uh, did you even read the headline?
Uhm...the evidence suggests that he probably read more of the article than you did. :-) After talking about the horse mentioned in the headline the article goes on to mention that unscheduled landings are fairly common and gives some examples--one of which is due to a fight breaking out.
A horse "getting loose" at 31,000 feet is definitely an emergency, what if one of the pilots had witnessed how loose the horse had become?? They would probably have been stunned and lost control of the aircraft immediately. Horse was also described as "in difficulty" and in need of a vet - might have pulled a muscle like Uncle Harold at the reception after a few champagne toasts.
> Under the regulations for Title II and III of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) from the Department of Justice (DOJ), a service animal must be a dog and no other species of animal. However, there is a single exception to this rule: miniature horses.
Air travel accommodations for people with disabilities are covered under the Air Carrier Access Act, not the Americans with Disabilities Act. Under the ACAA, airlines do not have to accommodate service horses. I do believe there was a case a couple years ago, however, of an airline allowing a service horse on board.
Interesting. The only reason I know about service horses being a thing was because Southwest used to allow you to bring them [1]. Looks like it's changed since I last checked [2].
From the American Heritage History of Flight, page 283 or so:
Another Alaskan pioneer flier, Merle K. Smith, who later became president of Cordova Airlines, recalls on of his own experiences as a bush pilot.
In the old days we used to have what is now called unusual cargo. We called it good paying freight then.
There was a homesteader who decided that he needed fresh milk. So he sent to Seattle and ordered some goats. I loaded these goats into one of the old planes and started up there. Well, I had forgotten that goats like rope, and I had tied these goats to various places in the airplane with ropes so that they wouldn't get loose and annoy me or endanger the flight.
In about twenty minutes they had all the ropes chewed through. So then I had all these goats. They'd all frolic together. There must have been eight hundred pounds of goats; and they'd all get in the back of the airplane and I couldn't hold the nose down. They would all come up and chew on me a little bit, and chew my shirt, and I'd slap them away. But I decided not to do that any more, because the first time I did that, they all went to the back of the airplane. It got to be kind of a serious situation. By the time we got to where I could land these goats they had most of the fabric eaten off the inside of the airplane, and my shirt; and the seat that I was sitting on was pretty well stripped of upholstery. But these little things happened. If you came out all right, as in this instance — well, it was funny.
The article linked to a youtube video that was a "reconstruction of the incident" and I was immensely disappointed to see that it did not, in fact, dramatically reenact the chaos of a horse loose on an airplane.
While helping rescue a dog in Peru our flight got delayed, so I took him to play fetch in a field by the airport.
Apparently the cargo handlers had the same idea; they let a pair of alpacas out and my dog beelined straight for them and started herding them to and partially through the terminal.
I thought I was going to be sued or shot - the handlers were good blokes and falling over themselves laughing by the time I managed to coax the whole entourage back to them.
This was a long time ago when airports were a very different kind of place.
51 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 93.3 ms ] threadOnce they sign for the aircraft, the pilot in command is legally responsible for all aspects of safe aircraft operation regardless of who did what work before.
This is the Hacker News version of an end user going "I don't get what's so hard about programming."
I think the "zero tolerance" analogy may be a good one, in that it absolves people on the scene from making decisions.
"Programming isn't that hard; my little brother is good with computers, too." That's the level you're talking at here.
I'll happily recant that statement if you're asserting that the pilot evaluates the situation, and doesn't just follow codified airline policy. "Absolves" was a bad choice of wording in any case, perhaps I should say "prevents from using their own judgment."
It sounds like you're in the industry. I'm genuinely curious, what sort of thinking goes into evaluating whether to turn the flight around after an altercation? I understand the idea of minimizing harm to passengers and flight crew, but you mentioned "using planes as guided missiles," so it sounds like the consideration is more about the plane crashing?
A horse is loose on an airplane.
Loose cargo can be a serious issue for any aircraft, especially when 1,000 - 2,000 pounds of it is potentially panicked and independently mobile.
CRAPPY journalism, btw.
Uhm...the evidence suggests that he probably read more of the article than you did. :-) After talking about the horse mentioned in the headline the article goes on to mention that unscheduled landings are fairly common and gives some examples--one of which is due to a fight breaking out.
> Under the regulations for Title II and III of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) from the Department of Justice (DOJ), a service animal must be a dog and no other species of animal. However, there is a single exception to this rule: miniature horses.
[1] https://northeastada.org/resource/miniature-horses-as-servic...
[1] https://www.afar.com/magazine/miniature-horses-are-allowed-o...
[2] https://community.southwest.com/t5/Blog/Southwest-Airlines-R...
A less amusing anecdote about weight and balance was this improperly secured MRAP, although it also involved damaged hydraulics.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/15/crash-of-boein...
Another Alaskan pioneer flier, Merle K. Smith, who later became president of Cordova Airlines, recalls on of his own experiences as a bush pilot.
In the old days we used to have what is now called unusual cargo. We called it good paying freight then.
There was a homesteader who decided that he needed fresh milk. So he sent to Seattle and ordered some goats. I loaded these goats into one of the old planes and started up there. Well, I had forgotten that goats like rope, and I had tied these goats to various places in the airplane with ropes so that they wouldn't get loose and annoy me or endanger the flight.
In about twenty minutes they had all the ropes chewed through. So then I had all these goats. They'd all frolic together. There must have been eight hundred pounds of goats; and they'd all get in the back of the airplane and I couldn't hold the nose down. They would all come up and chew on me a little bit, and chew my shirt, and I'd slap them away. But I decided not to do that any more, because the first time I did that, they all went to the back of the airplane. It got to be kind of a serious situation. By the time we got to where I could land these goats they had most of the fabric eaten off the inside of the airplane, and my shirt; and the seat that I was sitting on was pretty well stripped of upholstery. But these little things happened. If you came out all right, as in this instance — well, it was funny.
Apparently the cargo handlers had the same idea; they let a pair of alpacas out and my dog beelined straight for them and started herding them to and partially through the terminal.
I thought I was going to be sued or shot - the handlers were good blokes and falling over themselves laughing by the time I managed to coax the whole entourage back to them.
This was a long time ago when airports were a very different kind of place.