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What'd google do now? I've been watching youtube all day on firefox with ubo. No ads, no issues.
They really only did it on chrome, I think?

At least at work, I kept getting modals saying adblockers weren't allowed, but I never got those on firefox.

It seems to have gone away though (probably an update from ublock) even on chrome

No, their adblocker detection definitely detects UO in Firefox. I've had to disable it (UO) the last couple months otherwise YT becomes unusable.
Huh, fair enough. Guess it just missed me
I've seen those on Firefox. Disappeared after a week-and-a-half though.
They've been rolling out rapidly varying and inconsistently-behaving (between users/refreshes) changes in a pretty explicit attempt to break adblockers and complicate developing new ones. You're probably either just not in that cohort yet for some reason, or have already received the improvements that keep ubo working - people's experience varies widely with this wave, probably by design (difficult for blockers to study) and to try to judge impact.
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I don't have any issues with my AdBlocker on YouTube?

Also, not to be a downer, but CWS and YouTube are both Google property. If your extension does well then they can coordinate to make your life hard. I experienced this personally (https://thenextweb.com/news/how-youtube-killed-an-extension-...) where there was an implication my developer key would be revoked if I didn't delist.

> CWS and YouTube are both Google property

So is Chrome!

I have to wonder when Google will will start using the browser itself as leverage (beyond the upcoming Manifest V3 changes).

I still have not encountered any issues with uBlock Origin on YouTube.

There's 3 hypotheses I have for why this is.

1. YouTube has been gradually rolling out the counter-blocking to an expanding number of randomly selected users.

2. YouTube doesn't bother blocking me because I've purchased a substantial amount of content from them. There's little benefit in discouraging me from buying more content in the future.

3. YouTube has done some analytics to figure out that I'm the kind of person who will never return if no ad blocking is allowed and doesn't trust them to keep ads out of Premium.

I don't suppose you've purchased shows or movies through YouTube?

I think I purchased one movie through YouTube a few years ago, but it's been a while. I received a YouTube notification a few weeks ago letting me know that AdBlock was not allowed, but there was no follow-up.

I feel that YouTube is very deeply entrenched in a streaming architecture which makes it challenging to serve ads that are indistinguishable from primary content. All of the pushback against adblocking extensions feels like an unwinnable arms race until Manifest v3 becomes mandatory.

Contrast this with Twitch - where uBlock doesn't impact ads at all. I feel Twitch engineered their service to defeat adblock from day 1. YouTube wants to be in the same position, but doesn't seem willing or able to mirror Twitch's architecture.

I'm pretty sure the answer is #1. Gradual, per-account roll-outs of new "features" is very common on YouTube, and from the people I've talked to, the affected people seem to be fairly random.
uBlock Origin + Firefox here, on both desktop and Android, I haven't gotten any warnings either. My guess is that since I'm paying $100/year for 2TB storage they've decided they're making enough from me.
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Extension takedown in 3.. 2..

Honestly though, it will come and it will be in a form of copyright infringement, or something vague like that.

Good luck. Don't build your castle on top of another castle.

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This is skipping their adds, why would that implicate him?
The Chrome Web Store already blocks any extension with the ability to download videos from Youtube with the excuse of it "enabling piracy." Ironic considering that they allow downloaders for any other site. Only Youtube.com is banned. It smells like anti-competitive behavior to me.
Add this to addons.mozilla.org, so we can use it on Firefox & Firefox for Android!
Been watching YouTube on Firefox (Android and MacOS) with uBlock Origin with zero ads ever. What am I missing?
it's a tiered rollout. I also had no issues until a few weeks ago. but I usually just need to update the unlock lists and do a hard refresh and I will be back in business for a few days.
Nothing, it works just fine for now for me too. I'd still recommand an open source app called NewPipe over YouTube on FireFox, it seems way less hungry battery-wise... and there is likely also less data collection happening.
Unfortunately newpipe is bizarrely hostile to sponsorblock, which to me has become as important as Adblock itself: https://newpipe.net/blog/pinned/newpipe-and-online-advertisi...

But I definitely also recommend trying out frontends that support it.

I cannot imagine trying to use video while having to run a gauntlet of both YouTube ads and video sponsor segments.

What does sponsorblock provide that hitting the 'L' key a few times to skip ahead doesn't ?
It provides the ability to skip ads without pressing the 'L' key. Meaning that one doesn't have to be at the keyboard to press anything. It also skips to the end of the ad, so you never have to use the 'J' key if you pressed 'L' too many times or if the ad finished 9 seconds ago.
There is a newpipe fork with sponsorblock[1] which works quiet well

[1] https://apt.izzysoft.de/fdroid/index/apk/org.polymorphicshad...

Oh! Thank you! I knew of NewPipe SponsorBlock but thought it wasn't in F-Droid because the F-Droid folks didn't like that it calls out to the SponsorBlock service. I didn't realize that it was possible to add custom repositories to F-Droid, so now I've done that and it seems to have linked up perfectly. TIL; thanks!
I also prefer NewPipe for longer videos, especially ones I only need audio for. I share to it from the Youtube app typically, which has been getting more and more annoying (from one tap to 3 right now).
YouTube split tests (“A/B tests”) their changes. If you haven’t seen the modal warning you to disable your AdBlocker on YouTube, then you will soon.
Not necessarily, if you kept your filters and extension up-to-date, you won't see that pop-up either. uBlock handles it just fine. During early days of YT trying to force me to disable it, all I had to do is to open the settings, update filters and it was just fine. Thankfully it's been peaceful now for long time.
This isn't correct. A few weeks ago it started stopping me in FF with uBO running.
Ublock does all this. However in the first few weeks you had to manually update it. In Firefox it works flawlessly now.
That modal popup can be blocked as well. Ad blockers have element pickers for a reason. No need to wait for some official lists updates.
I noticed it only when logged in. When logged out my UBlock works perfectly. (Note, I havn't logged in for a while, so maybe the situation has improved in the meantime) (Firefox)
I got that modal for some time, switched to yt-dlp for that time, and now I get zero ads or modals again with FF/uBlock. Not sure what they are doing, maybe I'm just lucky.
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On Firefox I recommend uBlock Origin oder AdGuard, both block ads completely.
Did you not notice the submission title: "YouTube banned adblockers so I built ..."
I've seen a lot of discussion about YouTube banning adblockers, but as a user of Firefox + uBO, I have never seen it happen for me. Perhaps the Firefox extension ecosystem makes it easier to push blocklist updates or something. Or YouTube's detection is browser-specific and they bothered with the largest first.
Are you logged in to Youtube? People are saying that the YouTube anti-blocking measures are kicking in for logged-in users, but not for anonymous users.
uBlock Origin and Sponsorblock works on Firefox for Youtube even signed in
Yes, there is no question about that the uBlock Origin works regardless of your YouTube session status. The question is whether YouTube's countermeasures kick in or not: nagging you to turn it off, or stop playback.
Im logged in and see no ads. Safari with adguard, no ads on mac or phone. Update: i do see ads on safari mobile now.
The issue isn't whether you see ads or not, but whether YouTube is nagging you to turn off your ad blocking on threat of video playback being suspended after a few videos.
Your comment is so useful that I actually created an account just to thank you for your wisdom.
I use Firefox and uBO and I had it trigger about 4 times now. I go and manually pull the uBO "Quick Fixes" list and still it triggers for me.

Recently it has stopped triggering again though. I have no idea why.

I just clear filters and purge cache in settings. Seems to be working well so far.
Google will make a change to its ads to get around the adblockers, but no change they make gets deployed all at once.

Instead they spread their updates over users 0.1% at a time over an hour or so. That way if youtube stops working for that fraction of users, they can cancel and rollback the update.

Sometimes this means that you might be in that tiny fraction of users who gets a change before the devs who maintain the UBO lists, and sometimes that change is related to ads.

(It's only happened to me twice in the last 2 years)

In this case, you don't need to mess around with other extensions, you just need to wait an hour or so until those devs have seen Google's changes and they can push their own updates to reblock the new ads.

If you want it to go faster, you can go to the github issues pages for the filterlists and they have instructions for how to get uBlock Origin to generate a blob of debug info to post on github to speed up their updates.

Interesting, thanks for the insights. The next time I feel frustrated enough I'll have to do that.

Part of me was considering just self-hosting an alternative YT frontend. At this point I'm sorta happy with how YT slowly has decreased its usage in my life

If we frustrate Google enough, though, they will try to make up for the lost revenue by deploying it all at once and miserably fail.
They need to just give up and stop fighting the ad-blockers: they can't win, unless they try to force everyone to use a special app to watch YouTube, which obviously isn't going to fly.

There's plenty of losers out there who can't or won't use ad-blockers that they can make their ad money on; trying to harass the 20% of users who use ad-blockers is just an arms race they can't win.

"Can't win" is at odds with Google's self image though.
It’s likely a gradual rollout. So, it will happen eventually.
Yeah, I'm using uBO in both Chrome and Firefox and have yet to have them not work or get a "turn off your adblocker" nag or whatever
I use uBO w/ Firefox and got the nag once, around two weeks ago (dismissable warning). Presumably an uBO update got rid of it.

Interestingly I just tried Chrome (Canary build) with uBO and I'm getting ads... :o

I saw the popup a month or so ago for the first time, and 10 days ago after that. Simply manually updating uBlockOrigin filters did it for me both times.
That's definitely a technique to keep in reserve if they get better at detection, but uBlock Origin currently works very well on Youtube as long as its filters are up to date.
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If i'm logged in it fails constantly when i'm logged in (a few videos daily seem to work ok, after that it refuses to load a video, even though a "anti adblock" popup is still blocked)

...but it seems to work ok in incognito tabs, so youtube gets even less data on me now.

ublock origin folks have asked people to not run any other blocker extension alongside, those seem to trigger the anti-adblock scripts. It might be the same case for you.
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Personally anytime I get a pop up I clear the filter cache and update it again and it's worked the 3 times it happened.
They didn’t block the brave yet
I regularly get nag screens though.
no you don't
As a subject matter expert in things that appear on my screen, I assure you that I do.
Haha, good luck I'm behind 7 proxies
I know you're being ironic, but routing through a proxy in a country that doesn't receive advertisements is a real technique [0] for ad-blocking on Twitch, where the ads are embedded as part of the m3u8 playlist.

[0] https://github.com/pixeltris/TwitchAdSolutions/blob/master/f...

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apparently it only happens with google chrome browser (what a surprise!), another reason not to use that spyware that only consumes RAM.
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What makes this apparent? I've not observed or heard this to be true yet, e.g. the same problem has occured to me in Firefox. I've found making sure the adblocker rulesets are updated faster than the normal update schedule was planning tends to fix it.
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I use the Hosts file to block a ton of ads and that works really well. https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts Something worth considering if your ad blocker isn't working well.
hosts file won't work for the in-line ads present in YouTube. The ads are served from the same domain as the video you're watching.
I think it's worth noting that it wasn't always the case - there was a hosts file repo used by pihole users that effectively blocked YouTube ads.
You keep doing things based on historic knowledge and suffer those ads, while the rest of us will move along with the times and not suffer those ads. Lest we forget? sure, but it's not like they'll be going back to that technique as it's ineffective for them.
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I think it's even more worth noting that it wasn't always the case that Youtube started warning ad-blocking users and stopping playback!

Even if we suppose that a simple hosts file could somehow block YouTube ads today, YouTube would detect that. It would not fare any better than any other ad blocker.

Same domain, won't work
... and if it worked, YouTube would detect that and retaliate!

Back when a hosts file was able to disable YouTube ads, YouTube didn't do that.

The thing is, subscribing to that file is usually just one click in a list of lists to chose from in common adblockers. Functionally (for Webbrowsers) it's the same, just on another layer. While adblockers (in Webrowsers) can do more, which isn't possible with hosts-style blocking alone.

So host-based blocking alone could be considered as just an 'emergency wheel' in case you'd had a flat, or something.

ublock origin works fine on YouTube, if not, couldnt this just be a filter rule?
It does. But i think youtube attempts to detect the adblock (which ublock origin continues to evade with new updates?).

This extension does not block, but instead just fast forward the ad (playback speed at 10x - tbh, it could'be been at 100x probably!) and mutes it. So from the youtube js perspective, the ad has played and wasn't blocked.

uBlock Origin as far as I can tell has been winning the race. As long as you stay up to date and clear the cache now and then. I've had one occasion (recently) where I got some ads which was fixed by updating uBlock origin, but maybe I'm not in Youtube's anti-adblock cohort.
When they first started this, a month ago (or so?) I just right-clicked and used block element with uBlock Origin to block the popup and the div element that covered the page to dim it.

I've not seen it since. Only side effect is videos sometimes pause right as they start. I assume because it stops the video and shows the pop up. I can just resume immediately though.

Cool! I recently wrote my own user script to do the same thing. It's going to be very hard to patch or detect this, as updating video element props don't trigger DOM updates. They would have to either do lots of JS prototype trickery or check for playback rate when doing adblock detection. One thing to keep in mind here though since you're doing DOM lookups every time anything on the page changes, is that there could be some small overhead in page render time, and also that using fixed CSS classes means any small change to page code could break the checks. In case it's a problem in the future, checking .innerText is a hacky way to workaround it.
They could refuse to deliver the main video content until the minimum ad time has passed?
This has already happend to me, probably unintentionally. Something in Cromite "broke" the ads and just showed a black screen before the video started.

It was fine. I had no problem with it.

I had something similar happen. I'm fine with a blank screen and waiting 5-30sec. I don't want intrusive ads before during and after a 5 min video on water heater maintenance.
Watching a blank screen is still a huge quality of life win.
Exactly what happens on Twitch (that or a low quality version of the stream) if you use the few anti-ads that still work. And I don't mind that, if I do, I usually stop watching and move to something else... especially because their ads are even more annoying than YouTube, often multiple consecutive 30 seconds ads, unskippable. I do not know who watches these, especially when they cut something happening live.
I'd say the low quality version of the stream is far better than the purple screen.
I'm using uBlock Origin and haven't seen an ad on twitch other than for a day or two about a year ago, in years. (Daily Twitch watcher)
You might be in a country/region in which advertisers don't buy ads. But for quite some time now uBlock Origin isn't enough to block ads. Also if you are subbed/Twitch Prime to a streamer or have Twitch Turbo it might spare you a lot of ads too.
There must be something different about how some of us are using uBlock Origin then - none o that applies to me, yet I only very rarely get ads for a day or so. I'm not even logged in to Twitch.
I have never seen any ad on Twitch either and I am a very irregular user as well.

My guess is they don't show ads to guests before they reach a certain amount of frequent visits.

I have never paid a penny to Twitch, nor been given a gifted sub. So it's no that :) I know for sure my country has ads, as occasionally I load twitch app on my phone and it's unbearable.
I've never been a big consumer of Twitch, in part because I don't understand how they can decide that now you're going to forcefully miss the next minute of content.

In TV movies or YouTube, the actual content gets paused so that at least makes sense, it's just an interruption. But in Twitch it's like if they put ads in the middle of a football game! Imagine being interrupted for ads and back to players celebrating a goal.

Another thing Twitch does badly is to put ads on my face not even 30 seconds after joining a channel. Psychologically it feels like I haven't had time to get invested in the content, so it's not worth it to put up with the ads, and it makes me move somewhere else or close the tab.

On Twitch, the content creators can decide when to play an ad. They usually apologize for "having to do so", but they preferably do it at boring times in a match.
True, but what if they start encoding the ads into the stream?
something like below extension. Relies on crowd (end users submitting time ranges) to skip unwanted parts

https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/sponsorblock-for-yo...

That wouldn't work for dynamically injected ads that could be at different timestamps and have different lengths for each user.
Some sort of checksumming to detect segments differing between users would probably be doable.
I think you under estimated the cost of your solution, the cost must not excess the profit from the ad.

You need hard work on the encoder to do that (at least to segment video, because re-encoding dynamically is obviously not an option). Not profitable for Google.

Aren't there codecs that don't carry state across keyframes? Wouldn't it then be trivial to split a video at a keyframe and insert new content?
Sounds like it would be just as trivial to detect the split at the decoder level.
Why? How would you determine if the content that comes after the split is an ad? What if YouTube has 1000s of versions of the same ad, of which they insert one after the split?
Shazam-style audio fingerprinting can help.
The same applies for regular ads on websites. If the ad is delivery alongside the content, it can’t be blocked. But the industry doesn’t want this. They want cheap delivery of extremely targeted and tracked pushing of micro optimised advertising. That’s a reason to ad block alone. If a digital newspaper had the same ad for everyone on their website, with no tracking, I would be ok not to ad block it. That isn’t the creepy ad business I am inclined to block.
Indeed, this is one possible end game, if we cannot block the ads from our computers, we can at least block them from our ears and eyeballs.

I view ads as a reminder to myself that I should maybe be doing something else with my time. I would love an ad blocker that blanked my entire computer screen for the duration of any ad, it would be a great chance to breathe and stop doom scrolling.

Someone someday will build an extension that will replace ads with "AI" generated video to fill in the blank.
You could also just have a system that predicts which videos you are going to watch next / soon, and preloads them in the background, so that the minimum-ad time will have already passed by the time you are giving them any attention?

That seems a lot simpler to do?

I would definitely pay $100+ for an HDMI dongle that would black-out/mute cable TV commercials for my parents.
Arms race towards people running their own private YouTube instances which pre-fetch subscriptions and recommendations to skip ads. If the video hasn't been downloaded already it pretends to play the ad in the background while waiting. A minor inconvenience, but hardly the end of the world.
Be even easier if they provided an MRSS feed! I wonder if a popular channel on YT started making their content available in an easy to parse format like MRSS if they'd notice a significant loss in YT viewers in favor of it. Of course, they'd then lose the ad share, so probably not a thing that will happen.

How fast would YT issue a C&D if someone created an app that did this for you so that you just entered in the channels you follow, and then it would just check every so often for new content?

You're describing Freetube. I use YouTube daily without an account, ads, or algorithms.
https://freetube.io

Happy user here as well.

How reliable is it? I used one of these apps from the F-Droid store (can't remember if it was this or NewPipe) but reliability was poor.
It's desktop aplication.

How unrealible NewPipe was for you?

Unreliable enough to say "screw this" and use the regular app and set up pi-hole
Pi-hole is not able to block ads on YouTube entirely. They are not DNS based.
Shout-out Nebula, an alternative YT/creator platform which has no ads or sponsor segments. It's a monthly subscription but fairly cheap, and it gives you access to all videos on the platform (unlike patreon which is for a single creator). The monthly subscription cost is then split between all creators on the platform.

It's not a 1-1 alternative to YT as creators have to opt in, so most (imo low effort) videos/creators won't be on there. It's fantastic for any tech/engineering/history/news though, high quality/effort vids with no bullshit.

Note: I have no vested interest in Nebula, I'm just a user that's happy to support good creators and a platform that's actively opposed to advertising.

If this counts as an ad/spam - let me know and I'll delete this comment.

Yes it's TiVo for Youtube. And this...THIS...is the real use case for desktop AI: Detecting ads and automatically skipping them.

Funny how the AI barons never mention how AI can empower normies against them.

Same happened to me at a software conference. Ask a bunch of presenters about "When was the last time you put the User before yourself?

Crickets man. Crickets.

And then Google will sue the owners of any such instances for DMCA violation.

Your contract with the network when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots.

And then Kevin McLeod triggers the no-DRM provision of CC-BY and rugpulls every creator on the platform.
Sounds like a podcast app, but for video. A mix of yt-dl and some checks for specific channel updates.

Horrifying amounts of local storage required though.

Storage is also horrifyingly cheap these days. Was just looking at recertified enterprise HDDs – can get a 20TB drive for $200. Wish I had some more spare change lying around!
Making this work would likely mean that the CDN edge servers become much more stateful and the costs of operating that might outweigh the additional revenue.
Not really. IIRC they already used signed URLs. They just need to add a not-before field to the URL.
This. For some corporate training sites they do this, which makes watching at 2x useless since you just have wait silently… but if you’re me, you get distracted, go do something else and then come back a month later when the nag email tells you you need to do the training.
I don't think I've ever completed a training course on time, only after getting "urgent: 7 days to complete".

I've got severe ADHD so these types of assessments are near impossible due to the slow dialogue and forced wait time. Though most of these courses give you multiple (or unlimited) attempts, so I'll screenshot each slide + wrong answers and brute force until I'm done. At least I can get other stuff done in the meantime.

What I do instead is attempt to reverse engineer what JavaScript function I need to call or web request is needed to make it think I competed the test/videos.

A common easy way is to just re-enable the “next” button. Even if it takes me longer than just doing legitimately, I find it more educational.

That's probably a bad idea from a legal point of view.
The approach of trying to know what exactly the user does in their browser on their own computer and from that information to conclude whether something in front of the computer happened (the learning) is nonsensical at best and crime at worst (when done without consent or secretly). Allow the user to give deliberate signals by marking parts as done and if necessary analyze the datetimes of those signals.
But the OP is talking about training their work assigned them. Which is presumably done on company hardware.

You have no expectation of privacy on company hardware, they are allowed to do anything they want to do with the signal you provide them...

What expectations I have, is my own business. I definitely don't agree with being mistreated by an employer and it would probably make me look for another job, if an employer did that kind of thing.
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'Expectation of privacy' is a legal term. It doesn't have much to do with your personal expectations.

In any case, what I meant is that actively lying and deceiving about whether you did the compliance training (or any other employer ordered training) can probably get you into hot water.

I was annoyed when a government security training exercise ranked "send the data using a trusted courier" as more secure than encrypting the data, and marked my answer incorrect.

My manager was impressed when I scored 110%.

Just give me a nice PDF I can read in half an hour instead of 5 hours of training that insults my intelligence by making me wait for the audio to finish. At Walmart back in the day, I spent the first couple days doing training in the back - the dullest thing I've ever done. But turning on closed captions and listening to my own music instead of their audio made it tolerable.
Unfortunately, this is - like so many stupid things - governmentally-driven.

In some US States (e.g., California), there are requirements on how many hours of training on topic X must be done every year. So if you finish faster, they literally, legally, have to feed you more crap until the hours of training have been met.

The next will be downloading the videos in background, stripping the ads, and watching them later.
I've seen a few ads on Youtube that I actually appreciated watching. Quiet background music, a useful product, respectful presentation, text with no spoken words, and done quickly.

However, the vast majority are the exact opposite. Loud music, shouting, uncomfortable sound effects, a long playtime, and to top it off, either advertising an outright scam or else a product that I have no interest in whatsoever. Sometimes I have to rip my headphones off to protect my ears. Not to mention the timing -- ads between movements in a classical symphony, or else right during a passage itself.

It's a good reminder that while I've enjoyed Youtube for many years, I also have a CD collection I can listen to instead.

The worst was when Google was turning a blind eye to advertisers putting entire TV episodes and music videos in ads. It was infuriating to have something playing in the other room only to realize what should've been a 2 minute ad break somehow has been going on for 10 minutes.
Well really they could include a hash with each frame of video data, timestamp when clients have started watching and only allow sending the next x frames once y time has passed.

Really, they should just get rid of all ads and force everyone to pay a subscription, because apparently that's what everyone wants. Oh no, wait, they want neither; people want Youtube for free without ads.

Sure, YT could make less profit and therefore serve fewer ads/lower premium price, but in order to convince them to do that, humans would actually have to work together and boycott it to send a message, and as we all know that ain't ever gonna happen.

One can simply "videoElement.addEventListener('ratechange', callback);" to be notified the ad was sped up.

I mean the client can then undo this, as it can any JS the page offers, but there's nothing harder about detecting playbackRate changes vs something which causes a DOM update.

Can't an extension filter that event out?
Sure, that's what the 2nd line is referring to.
They could just patch Chrome to make "updating video element props trigger DOM updates".
Good thing alternative engines exist
True, but they also have a lot of sway over what other engines do
And you could build chromium and remove just that
Just buy Premium, no ads and creators actually get paid unlike when you block ads.
lol yeah, that’s what they said about cable tv.

Fool me once, …

"fool me once" only applies when it's the same entity doing the fooling
cable TV had ads from day 1.
It certainly did not.
It depends on how you slice the question.

The first cable-only station to do ads was USA in 1977. But since cable always carried local stations, cable always had channels where ads were run.

Cable TV started as a way to expand the reach of broadcast TV. Broadcast TV has commercials. Hence cable TV always had commercials.
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> creators actually get paid

Until I see a report of exactly how much my monthly fee directly goes to each of my subscribed channels, I'm never going to believe that.

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I pay them via Patreon. Google will never see any of my money.
I wouldn't believe you if you told me you're subscribed to every Patreon of every content creator you consume the content of.

And again: avoiding paying the platform operators no matter the cost.

> I wouldn't believe you if you told me you're subscribed to every Patreon of every content creator you consume the content of.

Everyone’s YouTube consumption is different. I’m not the person you directed the comment at but I realistically follow less than a handful of creators on YouTube. Subscribing to all their Patreons (not sure if all of them have it) would be quite doable.

I don't care whether you believe me or not.
[flagged]
Can you please not post like this? It's not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

In hindsight I agree, but I'm confused why only the comments on "one side" (which all seem to be equally substantive) are being flagged, and not all the participants in general.
That's either randomness (every random sequence has long strings of all-heads or all-tails) or cognitive bias (it always feels like the other side is getting treated better) or some combo of the two.

I don't mean to be glib or dismissive I'm just writing this rather hastily! and this is a pretty well-established finding, at least in my own head, having gone over I don't know how many thousands of these cases...

Edit: but if you want to link to specific cases where you feel like there was an asymmetry, I'd be happy to take a look.

[flagged]
I can see why you'd flag the other comments and I apologize for those, but 38327624 (the rootward one) was phrased to not be antagonistic.
I didn't flag that one I don't think, but I suspect the use of "cope" set some folks off.
Can you please not post like this? It's not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

If the platform operators want to offer a service that's free for the user, there are more ethical business models they could use. e.g. implement p2p video distribution (conveniently, they also make the most popular browser, and could bake p2p in, e.g. support for IPFS), and let the uploader pay for the platform to act as a seed box (or just let the uploader seed). For users that don't want to run a p2p client (phones, etc.) offer paid gateway services. Provide other creator support services like patreon.

Note that the above architecture is modular in a way where other businesses could compete within individual components. E.g. a seed box provider, or a gateway provider, or creator services. Obviously, this is not as good for them (they'd like to force their vertical integration), but better for everyone else.

Or they could stop giving their service away for free, but we all know they benefit from network effects and mindshare, so they want to keep everyone there.

As long as they provide a free service that's bundled with malware, people will accept the service and just remove the malware. When you do something unethical to start, you can't be surprised that people don't play along as planned.

Point is, they chose to corner the market and be a vertically integrated platform with all the costs involved. They didn't have to. They do bad things to maintain that position. No need to shed any tears for their decision.

The likelihood of you paying creators directly is the same as movie pirates paying actors directly.

We don’t believe you.

Please don't accuse people of lying on HN without evidence, it lowers the quality of the discussion.

I've flagged your comment for this reason.

No justification necessary. No creator ever charged me for products or service. They did it for free. They assumed I was gonna look at the ads. Unfortunately for them that assumption just isn't going to hold.
An antisocial mentality, and bad for society.

> They assumed I was gonna pay the clerk at the grocery store.

Huh? The grocery store doesn't give people stuff for free. Everything is clearly labled with a price.
How much do they get from you right now with adblock?
Thought experiment:

Suppose a $14 subscription to YouTube Premium is typically split in half, $7 for the platform and $7 for content creators. If someone signs up for YouTube Premium but doesn't watch any videos at all, do creators split that $7 (in a proportion that roughly mirrors the existing amount creators were already getting paid: a bigger share of the $7 for those with a bigger share of views generally) or does the platform keep both halves?

I don't know that anyone here can say what does happen with that $7, but what should happen with it? Did creators earn it? If they earned it regardless of no plays from that user, it follows that in another universe where the Premium user only ever watched one single creator, that creator doesn't earn more of that particular $7 than they otherwise would.

At this point I think it's the principle of the thing. I mean I have premium but I still want them to get smacked down for this because Google made one of the endgame moves to drink verification can.

Ads are supposed to incidental, you run ads and if too many people block them because they suck then congrats sucks for you. If no one sees them then sucks for you. Most people put up with TV ads when they're not even hard to skip. And for some reason IG ads are well liked. Forcing them harder I think has to make us confront what we're really doing here and what we're gaining by all this. Just pay for premium sounds nice when you don't think about it. If there's no universe where someone might actually prefer the ads if they were the same price then we're kinda admitting they have literally zero value to the viewer.

And that paints a very different picture of advertising than "the grease of the economic wheel" ya know? And clearly all advertising isn't like this, like I paid to see the Lego movie, Barbie was fantastic. I watched a YT video of a woman showing her design process for a product she's selling and it was fascinating but it was also just an ad. But if YT are there to suck just so you'll pay for it to suck less than that's not mutually beneficial trade that's extortion.

That’s a lot of words to say you want something for nothing. Embrace it, just say you don’t want to pay for content with attention or money.
Ah yes I want it so much that despite being able to block YT ads for years and get all the content for free and still able to do that now I pay for premium. Clearly I just want free shit.

I know it's crazy but what I actually want is an ad model where I don't feel the need to make it go away and might actually enjoy. An ad model where it doesn't have to interrupt me and force itself upon my eyes because it's actually content I would watch on my own.

Like take for example Fly.io's blog. It's is some of the best advertising for the service and is definitely why I use them today. Raymond Hettenger's python YT series is a fantastic ad for his consultancy. Wendy's Twitter was/is hilarious. But its a weird dynamic because if the content is good you don't have to pay for it which seems silly because it's an ad all the same.

> Embrace it

Absolutely. There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Nothing. Not a single thing.

I make it a point to recite this mantra in every single ad blocking thread I see:

Our attention is ours.

It's not theirs to sell to the highest bidder.

It's not currency to pay for services with.

It's part of our cognitive functions and it's absolutely inalienable.

They are not entitled to our attention.

Our minds are sacred ground. They do not get to violate it for profit.

They do not get to insert brands and products into our minds without our consent.

To do so is mind rape.

Advertising is therefore a form of violence.

Ad blockers are therefore legitimate self-defense against this violence.

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This reads like an unhealthy addiction bordering on mental illness. Your livelihood is not at risk. Seeing an ad is not violence.
I don't care. I'll keep saying it anyway. You can't actually refute it.

Are you going to claim people's minds aren't sacred ground? That they're the corporation's market battle ground where they compete for brand awareness? That they're the government's blank slate to fill with propaganda at will? Ridiculous.

Every time there's an article about this fight, someone inevitably chimes in with their "Just Buy Premium" contribution. While true, it's not very useful or topical, and it's been re-posted so many damn times that it's pretty much zero-value.

It's like going into a discussion about building your own custom PC from scratch and posting "Just buy it from Dell!" I mean, no shit!

Everyone obviously knows paying is an option. These articles/discussions aren't about the obvious, short, straightforward path.

The “just buy premium” comment is usually the lone voice of reason in a sea of people jumping through hoops to justify why they like getting things for free without paying for them.

There is value in reminding people that blocking ads when there is a paid ad free option is scummy behavior.

Thank you. I usually get downvoted to oblivion when I say “people should pay for products they use”. I don’t get it.
They're totally free to configure their servers to return HTTP 402 Payment Required instead of a free web page. They keep sending us free stuff loaded with ads instead. Only have themselves to blame. Nobody's actually obligated to "pay" by looking at that junk.
People that don’t have a lot of money should be able to choose to watch ads for content.
Google added our web pages to their index without paying us. and probably trained AI on our content without paying us. Just returning the favor.
Not really, you have an option to exclude your content from being indexed by Google (robots.txt).

I don't care as much about Google losing money because of ad-blockers, they have plenty of money going around. The real people losing here are the ones who are creating the content. As it is they need to amass a large number of views to earn few dollars from a video. Depending on the type of content, a lot of time, money and effort goes into creating each of those videos.

> justify

i don't need to justify my actions. I know adblocking is denying revenue to the platform. i don't care.

The "just buy premium" crowd is assuming that people are rich enough to afford premium. May be they should consider how priviledged they are for having the spare money to dump on premium.

Its $14 a month and cheaper in a lot of non-US countries, I don't think this is a "check your privilege" kind of situation
Even if you're rich, you're not obligated to see ads. Our attention belongs to us. It's part of our inalienable cognitive functions. They're not entitled to it.
That doesn't imply anything about youtube's ads. The way you exercise control over your attention is by closing the tab/app in this case.
The way I excercise control is by blocking that ad, unconditionally, with extreme prejudice, no due process and no survivors.
That's fine, and quite reasonable, as long as it works. Google has no obligation to maintain that state of affairs. I agree that Google isn't entitled to your attention. My point is that, just because they're clamping down on ad-blockers, doesn't mean they think they're entitled to your attention.
They can try all they want. We'll also resist all we want too. I'm just tired of the endless "freeloader" shaming posts.
Do you pay for the books you read at the public library? Or should we block those too?
We don't want to see ads. No further justification is necessary.

If they don't like it, they should eliminate the "free" version of the service straight up. If they send us ads, we'll delete them. Nothing they can do about it. We won't lose a second of sleep over it either.

Our attention is ours. It's not currency to pay for services with.

> Nothing they can do about it.

The article you're commenting on is all about something they're doing about it.

You mean their little anti-adblock scripts? Plenty of "clever" websites have done that before. We'll block their blocker, it's that simple.

https://drhyperion451.github.io/does-uBO-bypass-yt/

Nothing they can do about it. We own the computer their code is running on. We decide if it runs.

Certainly you decide if it runs. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

However, I imagine the hard part, if it comes to that, will be determining which code is which. Imagine the UI presented in a canvas, updated by a proprietary VM. You can see server connections of course, but their purpose is opaque. Perhaps ad/non-ad content is mixed into the same response. The ad-blockers may make some breakthroughs, but Google's under no obligation to keep it as easy as it is now. I suspect they've barely begun to try.

> However, I imagine the hard part, if it comes to that, will be determining which code is which.

One day someone much smarter than me will invent an AI ad blocker which will do stuff like that automatically. Just imagine it. An AI that automatically filters ads, brands and other forms of noise in real time. It'd even work on audio and video. Hell, it'd work on real life through augmented reality glasses or something. If I can imagine it, then it must be possible.

> Google's under no obligation to keep it as easy as it is now

Actually they kind of are due to accessibility laws. Everything you proposed means rolling back literally every single one of the hard won advances in web accessibility. Everything that enables assistive technology also enables bots, scripts, automated access. I bet they really hate those users because of that.

> I suspect they've barely begun to try.

Yawn. Trillion dollar copyright industry has been playing this exact same cat and mouse game with copyright infringement for literally decades now. You're telling me Google's gonna win this?

Everyone who has any respect for the word "hacker" and what it stands for better hope they give up. There's only one way for them to win and that's by owning our computers. Devices must be literally physically cryptographically unable to run software that hurts their bottom line for them to win.

> Our attention is ours. It's not currency to pay for services with.

That's a fine stance, just don't use youtube.

A lot of these "moral" arguments for not paying or watching the ads fall apart because they seem ignore that option entirely.

> just don't use youtube

Nah. I think I'll keep using it. After all, it's free.

> It's like going into a discussion about building your own custom PC from scratch and posting "Just buy it from Dell!" I mean, no shit!

No, its like stepping into a discussion about how 6 flags has made it harder to jump their fence to get in and saying "just buy a ticket"

Which, by the way, is the only defensible position.

I'm on the "Just buy Premium" train, but your's is a poor example; one thing is illegal, the other is not.
Bad analogy. Six Flags has a fence and doesn’t offer free rides. Jumping the Six Flags fence is not legal. YouTube has no fence and advertises free rides without a ticket, by design, but does serve ads. (YT didn’t used to, they only got big in the first place by offering free rides w/ no ads.) YouTube could have a fence, and only offer rides to paying customers, but they don’t. Avoiding those ads is perfectly legal. Using an ad blocker is perfectly defensible, as defensible as turning the volume down or doing something else while an ad is playing. You certainly don’t want ad avoidance to become illegal and considered stealing under the law do you? Imagine being arrested for failing to read a billboard, or for talking to a friend during a TV commercial.
Honestly, there's no great real-world analogy, that's why we keep re-discussing it (and ultimately, I think, the business model is flawed). Let's try a better one though:

I go into a store and they offer to give me a free cupcake if I'm willing to take their branded bumper sticker and put it on my car. I say sure, take the cupcake and the bumper sticker, and toss the sticker in the trash before I reach my car. Now they're following me out to my car to make sure I put it on. Fine. I'll do it, and then once I turn the corner, I'll pull it off and toss it. And the cat and mouse game continues, which is why nobody tries the "free cupcake for a bumper sticker" business model.

This thread starts, and someone says "You could always just pay for the cupcake, or keep the bumper sticker on your car..." Wow, no shit, Sherlock! That's obvious and adds nothing to the conversation.

That’s a decent example, and the questions are: is it wrong to take the cupcake and toss the bumper sticker? Is it illegal? In YouTube’s case, did I even agree to the bumper sticker? They never asked, and the rules don’t say I have to watch ads, there’s no legal requirement. People can and do suggest it’s breaking a contract, but in this case I disagree, the contract has been effectively changing out from under me and YouTube and advertisers are fully 100% aware that they’re asking for something that nobody wants to do willingly.

To extend your analogy, it’s like your favorite cafe decided to offer free cupcakes, and not for a quick promotion, but for ten years, and then after all other bakers in town gave up on cupcakes, and there was only one provider of cupcakes that was very popular because they were completely free, the cafe put bumper stickers on the table next to the cupcakes for a few years and noticed people don’t like bumper stickers, and then one day they said these cupcakes weren’t free before, you were supposed to be putting stickers on your car, and the other patrons started accusing you of grift for not having adorned the bumper sticker, despite the fact that the cupcakes had been offered for free.

I’d say there are a bunch of acceptable analogies, such as the free time-share vacation if you listen to the real-estate pitch, or almost any sweepstakes scheme, or the old 10 cds for a penny - if you subscribe to the monthly plan - thing. TV advertising is exactly what YouTube is doing, and they’re trying to exert more control over viewers than TVs ever did, because they can.

The analogy that doesn’t work is comparing YouTube to any strictly paid product, and equating it to stealing. That’s false and bogus, but I’m preaching to the choir there, you already know that. :) I don’t mind the reminders that it’s available as a paid service. I might mind if YouTube does what movies and other paid streaming services have done and start showing ads during the paid content anyway.

I'd consider paying for Premium if they remove the free with ads version of Youtube. Ideally every single person on the planet blocked ads on Youtube on every imaginable platform so they were forced to restrict all access to content if you didn't pay for Premium.
Sigh. I would pay for and ad free experience in a heartbeat if, and only if, they also don’t steal my data, build a profile on my usage and feed it all into some current or future AI to optimize how to manipulate me.

Of course that will never happen because these crooks are addicted to our data - and even more so if I am a paying customer.

What an excellent idea. Pay money to Google every month in order to segment yourself into the "has lots of disposable income" marketing category thereby increasing the value of your attention, for the privilege of not having your mind raped by ads you never wanted to see in the first place, all while they continue to track your every move online.
Unironically a good deal.
Good deal is uBlock Origin, paying Google any amount of money is just foolish. Subscribe to the patreons of your favorite creators in order to support them, it's a perfectly ethical way for creators to make money.
I do that too. I like the patreon model better, but I still like youtube.
If you have Problems in the chrome webstore than you could Build This for Firefox.
uBO works for me, just requires a manual filter update once in a while. Though I like this approach in it's own way as it still costs advertisers but delivers no value to them, maybe something more like Ad Nauseum which would click the ads too.
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For the people saying it's fine for them, YouTube was blocking access but only doing it for certain accounts and only after you watched more than a few videos. My personal account was affected but not my work one.

I was using Firefox + uBlock Origin and the site would periodically stop working. Clearing cache and updating the uBO lists would fix it, but only temporarily. No idea if the situation has changed.

One alternative is pay for YT premium, but they still might target you with ads[1] which is risable. I've heard FreeTube is a thing as well.

1. https://arstechnica.com/google/2023/11/google-kills-web-inte...

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I remember there was a point where ads on YouTube were tolerable. It's wild how aggressive they are now. I don't even bother watching so many videos now that I have to sit through 2 mins of unskippable ads what feels like every minute. My partner recently subbed to Hulu and it's worse. You still pay monthly and they shove 2 - 3 minute ads every 5 minutes.
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On mobile, they don't play videos unless the screen is on except if it's an ad, then they have all of these favorable bugs where your phone unexpectedly starts playing a whistling song with a twanging ukulele talking about mattresses.

There's that other bug where they disable the navigation during the ads and you have to turn the screen off and back on to the lock screen to get rid of it.

Such fortuitous defects.

Brendan Eichs Brave browser bypasses the YouTube bullshit if you want a workaround on android.

Hulu is not nearly that bad for me. I definitely couldn’t do ad interruptions every five minutes.

I get about 1-2 minutes of ads, maybe 2-3 times per 40 minutes of content. Maybe it depends on the content?

There’s also an ad-free plan.

lawrencehook.com/rys does this too
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I just refresh page when an ad pops. It may take a few before the ads go away but it's worked so far.
I only really watch YT on my phone, and Youtube ReVanced has been amazing for an ad-free experience.
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There is a javascript library for interfacing with Youtube's API directly. It can also run on browsers. Using this, it's pretty easy to create a simple extension that replaces the default video player with your own. You can do a lot to improve your experience this way. I've made one which allows for higher quality streaming, pre-buffering video in the background, more subtitling options, etc... [2] [3].

[1] https://github.com/LuanRT/YouTube.js

[2] https://github.com/Andrews54757/FastStream

[3] Chrome (also available for Firefox): https://chromewebstore.google.com/u/1/detail/faststream-vide...

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Hey you should post about this on our extension devs server , people would be super interested https://discord.gg/mHPkCCBx
I'll check out the Discord server because I want to see cool stuff other people are making, but I have no intention of seriously marketing my extension. I don't really want it to "take off" and become popular.

To me, FastStream is just a fun hobby project, not a product. I intend to always keep it free without unnecessary bloat or spyware of any kind. So, I don't really have a desire for it to be "successful" beyond it being immediately useful to me and a couple of my friends.

That’s totally cool I appreciate your intentions with the extension :) people have built some really cool things with extensions
Wow, faststream works great for normal web players. Doesn't seem to work on any youtube videos when using the ff extension in the store though. Gets stuck loading forever.

Edit: fixed, works well in every test case

Seems like it is a Youtube.js problem. will investigate, doesn't happen on Chrome.

EDIT: It seems like Firefox has some special unsafe eval rule breaking dash.js

EDIT2: Problem was actually FF's sendMessage not toString()'ing URL objects. I've fixed it in V1.2.1 for FF (approval by mozilla pending)

EDIT3: V1.2.1 (Firefox hotfix) is available now

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/faststream/

Kind of unrelated, but how difficult do you think it would be to hack support for glsl shaders in a browser? I tried to look into it once, but got a bit lost in the media source side of things. My idea was to try to add glsl shaders as post processing to video streams like in mpv but without having to jump through all the hurdles of passing data to mpv.

Example of a shader I was playing with https://github.com/TianZerL/ACNetGLSL

Isn't GLSL already supported by WebGL?
Yeah all the pieces are already there, but I was trying to make something like a player replacer that would let the user load arbitrary glsl shaders to use. The idea being to provide usable upscaling or filters for weak connections or old videos, correct shaky videos, etc. in real time.

I just found this for fsr [0] which might work for the upscaling use case.

[0] https://github.com/Hajime-san/web-fsr/tree/main/browser-exte...

Do you happen to know how well (or at all) the library supports subs/sub notifications and if people have built alternative UIs around that? The default youtube UI for that is a tremendous clunkfest.
This is nifty! It might be interesting to interface it with Sponsorblock in the future.
> Since Youtube no longer allows AdBlockers

You mean "since YouTube attempted to bar adblockers, but instead entered into a war with them that it cannot win, most users of adblockers continue to watch YouTube without issues".

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Why do you think it cannot win? I would bet on the opposite.
Without hardware attestation/DRM, all detection methods served by the server can be rendered futile. It's an inherently lost game for YouTube.
Why couldn’t they just introduce DRM?

They already use it for paid “commercial” content on their site (like TV shows and movies, whether pay per view or in a subscription).

There are zillions of youtube client devices out there that rarely get updated or no longer get updated at all. It's tricky to 'introduce' a lot of things, never mind DRM.
YouTube has infinite time and energy for this. Adblock developers do not. Some are already burning out. The biggest risk to YouTube's strategy isn't that they can't win technically, it's that the bitching from their employees internally grinds them down.
Because we own the client.
You still have to be able to tell the difference between content and ad. That seems like it will become hard soon.
It seems a lot of work to do this and worth it.

As a surprised customer of YouTube premium having all ads gone across videos and music across all devices really might not be a bad deal for anyone on the fence for a family plan and all your devices.

In terms of working around ads.. There are some neat solutions that seem to work ok for YouTube on tv.. but so far the family plan seems ok.

Was anyone able tog eat off the premium plan and have no ads on their phones, computers, tvs and smart speakers?

YouTube premium has no ads on the AppleTV app, which solves the TV side for my home. I have to imagine Android TV and other solutions are the same for the most part - is your TV using some kind of odd built in YouTube app that doesn't support the Premium subscription?
The tech in my home also practices diversity and there's Android TV as well as Apple TV - my experience has been the same as yours that Youtube Premium is ad free on all of them.

I have heard some folks using tools like invidious but I'm not sure how well they map to multiple screens.

Being able to put the same account onto the built in youtube apps on TV's and mobile devices has been useful. No need to buy a white noise machine for kids, we just use a google mini in speaker mode only. Sure, I'd like it to be something else but premium has me on board for now.

Ultimately the conversion rate of spam continuously proves one of the worst advertising methods. They are ripping off companies they lie to about the conflated stats, and irritating the 80% of users that will never buy anything for various reasons.

It is going to be an interesting waste of resources. =)

Did you mean conflated or inflated, I feel vaguely like it could go either way here
Tricky question, but yes...

The fact is the CTR for brand aware consumers will be negatively affected by burning goodwill with peripheral viewers. Thus, while increased paid impressions will be good for Google/Alphabet short term revenue, the actual consumer sales for advertisers will show a degraded campaign performance.

It was called a contaminated lead pool if I recall. If 80% of traffic now associates a brand as a nuisance, than it will cost >12 times whatever people spent on the bad Marketing plan to attempt to "fix".

Spectacularly bad business decision, as someone is letting the dog drive =)

Thanks for clarifying, I didn't want to nitpick but my curiosity always gets the best of me. Sometimes it works out :)
I just pay for the product rather than jumping through stupid hoops to avoid paying $3/month/user.

Paying to remove ads is how you get no ads.

Refusing to pay for ad-free services just tells companies that there’s no point in attempting to make a good user experience with no ads.

It's $14 a month for Premium. Most casual users can't justify that.
The average user watches 20 hours of content a month. So that’s not bad I think.

Somehow I suspect the ones obsessively managing ad blockers to make sure they don’t see a single ad aren’t the ones that watch 2 videos a month or less

I think that would be me. I don't think I watch more than 2 videos a month on YouTube.
Right, it confuses me that people think $14/month for YouTube is a bad deal and then turn around and pay $10/month for Spotify or buy three Starbucks coffees a month.

Like, is it that hard to imagine someone using YouTube a lot and finding the premium service worth the cost?

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It's only a matter of time until you get ads even if you pay.
You already do, a good chunk of videos have sponsored segments.
And for that, sponsorblock.
Sponsorblock is quite literally an ad blocker, and thus not allowed on YouTube
It is not an ad blocker, all it does is seek through videos.
That will be the day I get off youtube.
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Enjoy driving up the value of your attention even further I guess. Paying money only makes them want to advertise to you even harder. You're paying for the privilege of putting yourself in a list of people with so much disposable income they pay not to be bothered.
I don’t really care about all the future hypotheticals. I’m not entering into a binding contract here.

I want to not see ads. If someone sells that product to me I am buying. If someone doesn’t offer a way to avoid ads I’m selling (like how I used to be a sports fan and now I don’t tune in ).

If I get ads in my premium subscription I can always cancel.

I think you’re simplifying customer demographics. I think that companies and advertisers know that the people willing to pay to stop ads legitimately buy fewer frivolous products. The people who don’t mind ads are the ones who can be reached. These two customer bases don’t intersect.

G needs to Google the Streisand Effect. The ideal amount of fraud or non-compliance is never 0 and they have enough dumb suckers to feast upon. Leave the clever-enough alone or perish reverse-insects-as-future-food in reverse style. This is live-action Silicon Valley and the truth can be stranger than fiction
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What do you imagine is the down-side for google here? Non-compliance is getting lower, but maybe not to 0. Maybe you're just no longer clever enough. Personally, I pay for a YT premium subscription.
Don't you think Babs' lawyers told her the same thing till she was the poster girl for Google Maps? Oy vey, peopl3 (corporations) never learn

Edit: in the spirit of dialogue, can you describe exactly how paying a company to spy and manipulate you more with zero gurantees they won't ban you for nothing ever is smart? I just don't get the rationale here, how are you in any way better off paying (to say nothing of the relying aspect which is not discussed nearly enough) Google anything for anything? You're already literally the product in more ways than anyone could ever fathom at the baseline and then you hand them more money to be even more—product(ive)? I just don't get but I also maybe was a but invective and i apologize for that

It's a subscription. If they ban me, I'd stop paying.

The rationale is that it suppresses ads. And is bundled with YT Music, which I actually like and use. I've heard the arguments about ad blockers, but none of those seem to work across all the devices and networks I use.

I probably shouldnt be trying to talk you out of this. Please disregard, honestly there needs to be people on both sides for everything to maintain balance in all things. Like that funny catapult.

If it works for you, works for me :) The world is my ecosystem

Edit: trebuchet aha

> not clever enough [anymore]

Can you expand on that point? Its definitely provocative and moreso amusing but you've got me hooked now