Ask HN: How are you dealing with the job market anxiety?
So I started working in the last decade(around 2011) and my safety net has always been my skills and the ability to get another job whenever I want or maximum about 6 months.
However given the current market scenario getting a new job has become so much harder that I am starting to question my skills and whether that safety net still holds true.
How are people dealing with this?
160 comments
[ 5.1 ms ] story [ 237 ms ] threadPersonally, it feels harder this time, and most of the recruiters I talk to say the market is weak right now. But I’ve been seriously looking for less than a month, so it’s normal for me to not have found anything yet. I just tell myself that I’ve got through this before.
What's really different this time around is getting interviews is a big problem. Earlier you could get some interviews as well, but this time around its VERY seasonal plus and in general quite difficult.
An encouraging sign I'm seeing is that there's more permanent positions advertising higher salaries than in the past (maybe just the +20% of inflation from march 2020, but still!).
The market will change again... software is still eating the world, there will be shortage of SKILLED developers for the foreseeable future. And even if I need to make 25% less of what I used to at the peak of pandemic hiring, it's not that bad really!
8 months ago all the usual recruiter spam emails I got disappeared. 3/4 months ago I started getting recruiter spam again, but at lower salaries than before, this month I'm starting to see decent salaries again in that spam.
I've not tried myself, but the UK market looks like it's recovering to me.
At this point if the market is still garbage in preparing to resign and find something else to do with my life.
I joined an european robotics startup a couple of years ago in a promising field. Things aren't looking well for the business, we've been through a couple of layoffs at this point, and I'm looking. Interesting jobs opportunities have decreased dramatically since last year and, in my field, most recruiters reach out about positions on other countries in Asia.
It's been tough. I'm not even that old, but I would like to settle down for once.
* My thinking was to treat the lesser role as a contract role while looking for something at the level I wanted. Provide value, do good work, but continue to apply/talk to recruiters/interview.
It will definitely raise a question, so if you go that route, it’s useful to figure out what your explanation is. But if you’re staring at depleted savings, it’s a potential path.
Yea, making 250k might not be an option while the market is down, but once things pick back up, you’re free to look around again.
Where I live (Netherlands), we still have an insane shortage of qualified developers. Some of the vendors we work with are overloaded with work because all of their clients need their services in lieu of staff.
Yeah, I don’t make 150k anymore like I did in the US South, but that’s a different conversation.
The jobs are out there if you want to do honest work for a fair wage. The unicorn startups will have money again when the economy picks back up.
If a company is making hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue from your work, I think it's totally fair to want a bigger slice of that.
I do realise "fair" can also mean "considerable though not outstanding in size or amount" - in that case I agree, but I'm not sure about the word "honest" here.
2. “Fair” is whatever you can negotiate. You’re not entitled to any more than you can make them pay you.
Turn this around to an employer "“Fair” is whatever work you can negotiate from the employee. You’re not entitled to any more work than you can make them do for you." - 1) if you can't make the employee do much work, you aren't entitled to much work, and that's fair. 2) if you can exploit the hell out of the employee, then you are entitled to do so, and that's fair.
I have been in the market since 2006, and I have seen it go up and down; I've never been unemployed since, but I have close friends who run over one year without a job (In Brazil, we usually have financial crises here more often), at that time their option was to do freelancing for a while until they find another job.
I never felt "safe", having entered the market in 2006 and seeing very senior devs losing their jobs in 2008/2010; I founded a company in 2010 and run it up to this day as a side project (A SSAS for small business), of course, it takes time to build one of those (In my case it took over three years to get the first five customers, today we have more than 1k), and it is a counter sense to spend time building a business that will make you 2k UDS when in your work you can earn 5x that working on a company and having vocations. Still, it does pay off in times like this since I am not too worried if the marketing goes terribly; I can make a living with my side project.
I mean, of course you can, we know that if you know some programming languages you can pick up another language, if you know an HTTP router you can learn another, a MySQL expert can learn PostgreSQL, if you know React you can learn Vue and so on.
But you won't get through the HR filters unless you have the magic n years' experience. Once you learn that stack in your junior years, you are stuck on that path for the rest of your career.
Of course it wasn't always thus, but like so much of the industry, common sense went out the window some time ago.
The real interview will be with the tech staff, not the HR bot. Let them make the decision to hire there.
HR people do apply such filters, but you can usually work around it, if you're a capable individual that can actually "stack shift".
I "stack shifted" multiple times in my career, without lying about my experience. Companies look for talented software developers. Going from backend to frontend or vice versa might be harder, but otherwise the required skills pretty much universal. Having contributions on Github helps.
Of course, this is the part where I'm going to say that having a computer science and math/engineering oriented education, even if self-learned, can be valuable. People that go through their profession by just integrating off the shelf stuff will have their jobs automated.
Nothing is forever, we must all adapt
While that may be true, and it's what they all say, ultimately they just filter on keywords.
Of course, if you have a network then that's less of a problem. You are talking to a real person who can evaluate you.
If you don't it doesn't matter how good you think you are, you are at the mercy of the filters. It's not about your ability to change stacks, or your ability in general, it's about how companies select people.
That's not true while employed, since you can learn a new stack/tool/tech as part of a new project. People do this all the time, on spectrum from "choosing the right tool for the job" to "CV-driven development" (depending on how much you'll screw over subsequent maintainers).
I know many devs don't have the luxury of making big decisions for new projects; but there can still be opportunities to automate or improve some of your day-to-day tasks (e.g. scripts, aliases, sanity checkers to make sure you never do that thing again, etc.). For that sort of stuff you can use any technology you like, either as a quick, low-stakes way to learn something new, or an opportunity to use something you know from outside of work (admittedly this is more suited to using new languages; rather than e.g. a Web framework or server orchestration solution!). You can legitimately put that on your CV as a technology you've used commercially to solve problems, and that may be enough to get past HR filters. You can also share such things internally, to bolster your reputation as "someone who knows foo" (e.g. I was once given a task at work because there was an existing R package for what we needed, but nobody else knew R; whereas I once wrote a three line R script years ago!)
Unfortunately for this thread: that sort of tactic only works when in employment.
Such as?
1. I'm actively working on this side project of mine, and I'm considering giving a talk about it at an upcoming conference.
2. I'm trying to practice leetcode and system design. I say "trying" because I find it's an incredible waste of time, and I hate it. But I don't want to be caught by surprise in a leetcode-style interview.
3. I'm trying to stay in touch with people I know in the industry. I hate networking, but as long as I stay friendly with past colleagues then I'm good.
4. I've been refining my resume over and over again, trying to make it as polished as possible.
These things generally make me feel a bit more likely to land on my feet. I still suck at leetcode though :p
Then maybe it is a waste of time?
I’ve been a dev for 10 years, mentored juniors, led massive projects, interviewed hundreds of candidates and don’t even remember ever going to leetcode.com until reading this comment.
I think hacker news is the only place I’ve ever seen the word “leetcode”.
But maybe I just live under a rock or something. Just making the point that maybe it is just a waste of time.
Leetcode is just a popular repository of the type of interview questions that are designed to prove you understand a subset of the material from an Algorithms or Data Structures class.
Whatever YOU use to COMMUNICATE with your FREINDS
But yes Discord has been a thing for me for since Im a GAMER. This is contacting techs who Ive worked with working for big companies and they can talk up to their boss etc
No, I don't know what you mean, it's good to have clear communication through text media hence why I asked if that was a thing nowadays, I'm not in touch with the expectations from the younger generation growing up with Discord.
I've been in the industry for 20 years now and the 2019-2021 market (ie: the pandemic market) is the craziest I've ever seen. You definitely came onto the market at the highest possible point. The only time the hiring market was better was during the 90s dot com boom (or so I'm told. That's before my time.)
i’ve been sending 3-4 line connection attempts based on their profile but have not had luck
is there a playbook to market onesself?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37983867
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37990707
Courtesy u/Mandatum
Maybe others have a more positive experience.
That's probably where social connections come in because it at least provides a verification layer of "yeah X actually does know how to do A, B, and C we should get them into the hiring pipeline"
Good first impressions reduce the number of questions and give the other person a sense that you'd be enjoyable to work with. No one wants to work with a "genius" that has poor communication or social skills.
I've been hearing people give this advice my entire life, which is about a half century now. It's never been true for me. Roughly half the jobs I've had in my life I've gotten through a referral and the other half I've gotten "cold" by just applying to an open req and being the best candidate that applied.
By FAR the best jobs I've had were the ones where I got in on the strength of my abilities. Every job I've ever worked that I was referred into ended up being a nightmare that I couldn't get out of fast enough.
I'd say that connections are worth it for increasing your chances of netting a job because they tend to be good jobs since someone you know vetted it. Cold applying is easier to get a job period I think, but the quality in every domain is all over the place. It's a trade off.
> Roughly half the jobs I've had in my life I've gotten through a referral
Someone needed to know you well enough to make the referral.
Not true, many companies give incentives to employees if they hire their referral. Why would I need that employee need to know them.
Not to burst your bubble but there’s a near 100% chance you’re wrong about this.
Remember that the goal of hiring isn’t to hire the best person who applies.
The goal is to hire somebody who can do the job at the wage that’s offered. The best person might reject an offer or not even get one in the first place.
If you get a job offer it means that you were the best candidate that was available to the company. I'm cool with that personally, I don't agonise that some rock star may have rejected the role.
But also, why would I want to hire the best? Wouldn’t that mean that I can’t make a decision until I’ve seen all the candidates? Why don’t I simply look for the first that meets the requirements of the job?
> If you get a job offer it means that you were the best candidate that was available to the company
Again, I’ll disagree here. If you get an offer from the company it means that you got an offer from the company. You can tell yourself it was because you were the best available, but probably not true.
I've had maybe two jobs in my life on the basis of who I knew, and they were both kinda crap. The best ones I got cold on the basis of my ability and presentation.
I get that for some people networking feels like their best shot. I'm socially awkward and find networking stressful. Just shows there are multiple ways to get a good job, but you have to play to your own strengths.
IMO this is wrong, but it's hard to know precisely how wrong, just that people shouldn't be setting their expectations this low. There are tons of college kids entering in from the front of the pipeline who don't have connections or experience. Also I've just known a good number of non-traditional candidates who both have and haven't broken into the industry.
It is certainly possible that I'm just lucky or good at interviewing, but even if this trend is largely true, I hope that people won't be discouraged from applying to roles they find interesting and think they could be a good fit for just because they don't have any connections.
There is lots of advice around on how to live on a smaller budget. The upside of this is that you won't feel pressured to quickly find something new between jobs.
See also: https://independentlypoor.com/its-not-about-saving-money-its...
2. Work on your network, talk to recruiters, peers in the industry, you can even do some interviews to practice. Not only might it help you if you need a new job, it gives you a taste of the actual situation, it might be better than expected or you know better what to prepare for and what you can work on.
3. Be open to freelance work and shorter projects.
4. Work on your skills, tune them to where the jobs are, build projects. Widen your skills with new topics/languages/frameworks/areas and get deeper expertise in your main area. Get your confidence back.
5. Start a company, but that is a lot more risky, and comes with a bunch of anxiety on it's own. It is also a lot of fun, I am enjoying it.
I think you need to do a good objective evaluation of your situation. Anxiety often comes from uncertainty, you might find it's not as bad as you fear it is, or you learn what you need to do. It sounds like you have a job, have experience, so you might be fine while just continuing to do what you do.
Also I still have a job.
You can always do call centre helpdesk OP. Everyone is replaceable.
Or, learn a trade.
The consequence is that unlike most of my peers, we only have one car, it’s not fancy, vacations are in-province, and we don’t spend on things teenaged me craved like a gaming PC or a Lego hobby. The kids want for nothing, though. I’m very thankful to have a partner who is deeply aligned on this philosophy.
I think there’s no “right” answer. I can hear people saying to should enjoy things while young. But I’d pay almost anything not to feel that anxiety ever again.
So have to bear that in mind when people tell you how well things are going.
Mid term: this is where I have the most difficulty predicting. AI might get good enough to put most devs in 5 to 8 years. I give that 20% of chance but it's not 0. In that case only thing I could realistically do is management (lol), work in construction or gastronomy.
Long term: I don't plan to work more than 15 years. In 10 years I should have good enough finances to retire, and work for few years more to solidify it. I don't care and don't plan for black swan events.
Jira tickets, status updates, and meeting summaries are all going to be relatively low hanging fruit for lm apps.
I've had plenty I got along with, but not one that has ever made my job easier
Best case, we all suffer together. Probable case: they build a promotion off my back
Note: not the one who received the assertion, but it's true. Bad managers abound
In fairness to them, there's only so much they can do in organizations that refuse to change where it 'counts'
And if AI replaces all the low tier devs, it follows the demand for management declines as well.
SRE/Linux: recruiters are still reaching out weekly here
I've marked myself as "looking for work" on LinkedIn to get a taste. I'm trying to not jump in too early this time
Very difficult to get even screening interviews, portfolios of public work seem to be ignored, and even if you manage to get a screening interview, which is rarely with the hiring manager, you'll probably just get a templated rejection email from a person you haven't even interacted with the next day.
How am I dealing with it? I'm still applying away, it's not like I have much choice. Being frugal and trying to stretch the money we have in the bank. In the meantime I'm working on open source[1] and making programming videos on YouTube[2].
[1]: https://github.com/LGUG2Z
[2]: https://youtube.com/@LGUG2Z
I’m not trying to be contrarian or suggest that other folks don’t struggle finding a job. I’m just offering an alternate viewpoint. Maybe it’s my skill set that’s in-demand? (Full-stack JavaScript; React, Node, plus a ton of other stuff like Elasticsearch, DevOps-ish skills)
I’ve got a semi-decent resume and my managers typically give me feedback that I’m quite charismatic and easy to work with. Perhaps that comes across in interviews as well?
This here is the first downturn in over 12 years. So you haven’t seen one until now.
Reminds me a bit, but the opposite of, of the Saruman/Wormtongue scene in Lord of the rings, "But my lord, there is no such force" ...
Also trying my hand at a masters which consumes more time.
Edit: I am occasionally applying for new things. My work skills are a bit out of date (still a perl dev) which has been a problem while looking for something new before which isn't great.
Short answer; not well.
Long answer; I'm currently stuck in a job with an employer that I hate, that is slowly destroying my love of the work, and I can't afford the time it would take to leave, upgrade my skills and get into a better situation.
For context, I am a versatile service tech for industrial machines. I have zero certifications in anything only because I never needed them before since I keep pretty good logs of stuff I work on in my spare time and that typically serves nicely as a portfolio. I'm in my mid-40's and realized I have hit the upper limits of what I can do without certifications and an upgraded skillset.
I'd love to move into the world of PLC programming and cybersecurity in an industrial setting. I've expressed this to my current employer, but it's clear they want me to stay where I am at, so I'm more or less on my own if I want to grow.
I have been quietly looking for a company that offers opportunities for this type of learning and makes an effort to invest in their people. Nothing that comes up are positions I qualify for since I lack said certifications.
I realize this is my fault, of course, and could have been avoided with different decisions in my youth...but now I am panicking because I'm having trouble seeing what my next move is and that is something I've never had to deal with. In the past, I've been blessed enough to interview well and prove my skills, generally landing a new job within two weeks of leaving the old. Now I can't even get recruiters to call me back, with their bars being set historically low.
I'm at the point where I'm open to night school (sacrificing pretty much all personal/family time I have left) but I have no idea what viable institutions are out there, and what's a diploma mill to be avoided.
If anyone works in SCADA, cybersecurity for industrial settimgs, PLC programming, etc, I am open to any direction you can provide. Lord knows I am not getting it from the folks I'm surrounded with in the industry.
They probably meant PLC, which OP mentioned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmable_logic_controller
The trick is now rounding out that skill with a proper education on it and being able to show "yes, I did the work."
Don't worry about certifications, dig into the information on your own time. Do it at night, or in the morning, when everyone else is sleeping. Buy some old, broken or used controls and mess around with automating something in your house.
Once you start taking action that convinces you that the day job you hate is temporary, you'll be shocked at how much more bearable every single thing becomes.
The 'weekend' is not enough time to switch a career.
A university undergrad takes 1460 days.
With 100 weekend days a year it would take 14 years to achieve that. That's assuming you don't take a single day off for 14 years.
You're gaslighting the poor dude.
Sweeping ideas about blanket positivity are not practical solutions, so the previous comment (and, by extension, yours) are pretty unhelpful.
For more context, I work a lot of over-time at my current (US) job. Outside of work, I have a home and family to take care of.
Time is an expensive commodity in my world. Don't get me wrong, I am self-taught in a lot if areas, but there are some areas where structured learning is better, especially when it comes to being endorsed (certs, diplomas, etc).
Money is also an issue. About 80% of my wife's and mine combined income goes to debt (credit cards, loans, kid's schooling, etc) and the rest goes into our gas tanks or bellies. The US economy is not friendly to people who started off lower-income, and sadly, positive vibes don't help change that.
We're realistic, not looking to get rich. But do I have the brains to do better? I believe so. Convincing a potential employer of that is impossible without backing, and if you're at the bottom, getting that backing is MASSIVELY difficult.
Another comment mentioned that networking in the industry is key, and I do need to do more of that. I suppose it is time to reactivate my LinkdIn, something that seamed like another superfluous Facebook back when I first made the account.
Anyway, positivity is important, but it is not a solution. I do my best on that front, but it gets harder as I get older and less marketable.
Don't do any work to achieve your own goals.
It's hard and clearly you don't have the time or money.
Surely, someone will be able to see how useful you might be someday, if only given the chance.