Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?
Does anyone have experience getting back into tech/startups post-felony?
I have been looking for work since I was released for an assault charge in November 2022.
Previously I worked in Information Security as a SecOps Eng, most recently at Tinder. Between lack of recent job experience, and my record, I have been through a series of offer reneges, recruiters ghosting me, or going into HR resume black holes.
I am eager to get back into tech and feel like my old self adding value to a great team/org.
Anyone have leads on companies that are open to taking chances on good candidates with less than sparkling backgrounds?
NOTE: My offense was not computer/finance/fraud/selling drugs/physical violence/based at all.
Here is my linkedin:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/saunderscaleb/
401 comments
[ 0.23 ms ] story [ 455 ms ] threadI would look at smaller startups that might make it easy to just escalate to the CEO if you have a good explanation, rather than having an HR department stop you right away.
EDIT: I thought assault meant physical violence, but not harm while battery meant harm. I was wrong I guess?
Apparently public urination can overlap with indecent exposure, depending on the situation, and the latter can result in a sex offender registry.
Look on the registry yourself - you won't see anyone on there for peeing in public: https://www.nsopw.gov/
You hear the concept a lot, because it's a cover - "I'm on the sex offenders list, but I was just peeing. Didn't realize it was a playground, whoops!" is different from the true "I raped a girl, and despite the incredibly high burden of proof in that charge I was convicted, and now I have to tell you about it because I moved next door."
What burden of proof?
This is a crime where you can be accused of having committed it several years in the past, with no supporting evidence of any kind, and convicted for no other reason than that you give someone a "rapist" vibe.
https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedeta...
Physical violence is battery.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/assault_and_battery
"Assault refers to the wrong act of causing someone to reasonably fear imminent harm. This means that the fear must be something a reasonable person would foresee as threatening to them. Battery refers to the actual wrong act of physically harming someone."
"The legal definition of assault is an intentional act that gives another person reasonable fear that they'll be physically harmed or offensively touched. No physical contact or injury has to actually occur, but the accused person must have intentionally acted in a way to cause that fear."
https://vindicatelaw.com/assault-vs-battery-are-they-the-sam...
Example: "I'm gonna shoot you" is legally assault in my jurisdiction. "Someone should shoot you": not assault.
I can't think of them, right offhand, but I'll bet they pipe in.
I'd suggest making the title a wee bit "pithier," to make sure they understand it.
For example: "I Have a Felony, and it is Making it Difficult to Find Work."
I have known many folks with felony records that have found work, but it tends to be challenging. Stubbornness and not reacting to the dicks is an asset.
I sincerely wish you luck.
I was on a bad psychedelic trip, accompanied with some other issues at the time and ending up making threatening statements to a very high level official, but no battery occurred whatsoever. Thank goodness, or I would probably not be writing this message
Certainly if a weakness is found in the clone it's also present in prod, but that's what contracts are for. And we also review logs to make sure.
edit: a clone of prod w/ only test data in it, not prod data.
If you have the foresight to be able to recognize a malicious action from the logs, why not have the software block those actions from the start?
What percentage of the vulnerabilities discovered are independently discovered by multiple pen testers?
Then you talk about "discovered and revealed vulnerabilities". But, your first sentence talks about "discovered vulnerabilities not revealed".
What you may be wanting is a honeypot, where a pentest client intentionally puts some vulnerabilities of various exploit difficulty into the clone environment to ensure pentesters are doing their job.
How so? Presumably most pen testers are working in good faith. But, if there is a malicious actor in their midst, that individual would not disclose any vulnerabilities they intend to exploit, no. What would be the point? That's just a really good way to get caught.
> Then you talk about "discovered and revealed vulnerabilities".
Yes, that's right. While it is theoretically possible for all your pen testers to be working together maliciously, if you are careful in your employment practices you can make this highly unlikely.
As such, if your data shows that 100% of all known vulnerabilities were independently discovered by multiple testers, then there is reasonable confidence that any malicious actor's failure to disclose a vulnerability will still be reported by someone else.
But if that figure is less than 100%, and especially if it is considerably less than 100%, then there is much more doubt cast on another pen tester in your organization's ability to find the same vulnerability. Here you have a problem.
1. You get to test the flaws in an environment where nobody will raise an eyebrow. If you go straight for the production system, it is likely your early attempts will visibly show up in the logs.
2. You get paid to carry out malicious deeds. That's a double win.
It would be kind of silly not to.
The second two sentences read like excellent reasons why you should take the job (even if they are just a repeat what I already said in different words).
I must have missed something.
You get well paid and it's legal.
The reality is that you don't get paid well if the data is worthless. You only get paid well when the data is worth orders of magnitude more than what you're being offered. If you are inclined to break that law, that's a pretty nice carrot dangling there.
If you are so inclined, why wouldn't you take the job and report the not so crafty exploits to bring in the sweet, sweet paycheque and use the really juicy exploit to also go after the even sweeter data? It's a total win-win situation...
...unless you get caught, but if you are so inclined that's not exactly on your radar.
[1] Okay, regulation, but the need for such regulation is still in question.
I'd warrant nearly all of them, though it may take a while.
If you have ever submitted or worked with a bug bounty program you will run into dozens of duplicates.
I've personally performed and overseen assessments in which the company had already done a complete blackbox pentest and wanted a second whitebox review to make sure the first company knew their stuff and validate they found the same bugs. Also did a few of the honeypot assessments in which companies put purposely vulnerable code in to make sure 'we are doing our job', I hate those most.
Depending on the testers speciality of course, the reports often found the same or similar issues.
Source: 15 years as a pentester, offensive security engineer, and now security architect.
Why guess when the other commenter has the actual data...?
His eventual response was 0, by the way.
Zero because we patch them as soon as we are notified. Generally at the end of the test / before the retest, but if they found something serious they would notify immediately,
why are you not using cloned or dummy data?
Could/would you consider a sideways step to something less directly security based? For instance there might be data engineering roles that might suit.
Go west if you can. If you're on the east coast it's hell. The "liability" concerns are (IME) a pervasive east-coast racist myth from the 60s, but it's a real threat. The same justification was used to expand routine drug screening from forklift operators and truck drivers to keyboard jockeys. Equifax did drug testing of white-collar employees and did not hire criminals; so much for their liability and reputation following the worst data breach in history. It's all bullshit; both justifications are veiled cause to not hire blacks.
Mind your co-workers inclined to cyberstalk everyone around them and using your skeletons to raise PR hell to advance their own career. We've unfortunately thrown employees under the bus due to public outcry. Social "justice" in action! (What was the prison sentence for, if not justice...?)
Poster could say, “you don’t need to trust me, that’s the point of {insert product or service}”.
I can't do it anymore. I can't try anymore. I've tried for years and years and I can't handle this rejection. I can't handle knowing at the drop of a hat I'm gonna lose my job again the moment they find out. I just can't do this anymore. I really can't. I can't be this good, this friendly to people, this competent, and still judged so badly from something that happened while I was on drugs 14 years ago. I've been clean for as many years. It doesn't matter. I've tried explaining, doesn't matter. I've treid playing dumb and hoping the background check won't find it. I've relied on the right-to-be-forgotten laws and the fair credit reporting act-- billion dollar companies still refuse to follow the procedure. they didn't get me any chance to dispute what they found, even when they said they would. And no, suing them doesn't work. No one will take the case and I aint got money for it so no.
there are no solutions. I'm paid to find solutions to any problem... and I have none. I can find none. :(
People judge harsh these days. Good luck, you need it. Even if you get a job, it's a hell of a thing to have a coworker you've worked with for 18 months walk up to you with a printout of your case, saying, is this you? and then he pretends it didn't bother him.
oh it bothered him.
they walked me out not long after that for something seemingly unrelated. that job lasted exactly 2 years.
My next, I got walked out at just 4 months for "defacing company property" yeah I wrote my name on my custom chair they ordered for me. I was financially responsible for that chair, I know because I built the inventory system to keep track of the serial numbers. Do you think this mattered? Hell no. Do you think people cared to reason? nope. they kept a straight face even, said that I was lucky they weren't calling the cops.
well joke was sort of on them. my unemployment claim went before a magistrate and he took one look and said to them, did you get him a chance to wipe it off? and I'm like "I had multiple sovants on hand that would have worked. they never even gave me a chance." and they were like "...." and that was it. ruled in my favor.
but how it left me. it just devestated me. I brought my a game to that job. I grew that company from 29 employees to 165. I had microsoft hybrid local/cloud running and the dell laptops would auto provision all the user had to do was login with their username and password. it all unfolded, installed everything they needed. a perfect image. it was done in 20 minutes. it was amazing, microsoft really has some powerful tools to help IT get new employees working fast.
it just sucks. it sucks more than anything. it's unfair, sure. the world is unfair. but it is beyond unfair. and it has cost me everything ... this latest one just... sent me into a spiral. and I just gave up. I lost all my possessions, a lifetime of them. I just walked. how can I care anymore?
I'll still have a social security number that won't change, and I'll have an alias and anyone who really wants to find my info will find it even with a name change.
What a name change does is get me off a simple google search. which isn't legal, fair credit reporting act defines very clearly what you are and are not allowed to do to investigate potential employees.
and yet, do you really think I can start any business relationship by telling someone they can't do things like look me up? It's effectively what that is, and it's unreasonable.
The industry is still stuck in a "no one knows what to do about this problem"
can't stop people from googling you. but I can change my name ... but it's not going to stop the ones who look futher. and so far, all of them have.
It's not that nobody knows - nobody cares. The lawyers will always advocate for not hiring anyone "risky". Be that criminal convictions, dismissed charges, or people with disabilities.
HR depts hire these companies that break out the digital proctoscope, and they do things like find your social media accounts. Also, if you piss someone off, they can rat you, and you can be fired with cause.
As I've said, I've personally seen a lot of felons do fine.
"Being upfront" doesn't mean immediately stating it up front, but it also means not lying or pretending it won't come up. Also, there are time limits on this kind of thing.
I know a chap that graduated from Brown, in finance, and got busted in college, with misdemeanor pot, and that haunted him for decades.
I also know a chap that did four bids Upstate, retrained, and got a job as an IT admin for BNL. He did great, but burgers killed him.
Of course lying is a very bad strategy. But so is coming out without being asked IMO.
I have no personal experience just from acquaintances.
I don’t know about time limits I guess that depends on the country. For example in Germany this kind of information is usually not public so you will have a much easier time - also with the penal systems goal to rehabilitate not to punish. Of course it’s still very difficult.
I have an LLC. I'm a published author, but sales are nothing I could live off of.
I'm not sure I have what it takes to bootstrap a b2b. It's why I like working with others. I literally enjoy helping other people solve problems. I was an SRE two positions ago and I took on the IT role for an extra 5k/year. and I happily answered calls to change peoples passwords, because it was a small company. and everyone really respected each other. everyone was grateful. I had cards all over my wall that people sent me, thank you cards. covering half of it by the end. this is what I need in life, all I need. I'm old enough now to know the difference between wants and needs.
Your plan sounded perfect except for the complete infeasibility of it. Countries don't let felons from other countries immigrate.
Lets say a felon immigrates to germany. their policy is they won't ask. but if they find out you were a felon in the US, at any point in your life, they will immediately deport you. and your life in germany however much you built, is forfeit. yay! at any point in time.
that is not an acceptable risk
You end up on a no fly list or become a convicted felon and that’s it, your life of travel is snuffed out.
I really feel for the OP.
This likely depends on the felony of course. A DUI in which no harm/damage occurred is probably the lesser of the felonies.
In my metropolitan area there is a significant network of employment agencies. Many are faith-based and many work with the homeless and disadvantaged, and it is not unusual for some to cater to ex-cons and felons. They will not advertise this stuff publicly, so you will need to get referrals and inside information on how to find them, but once you hook up with such an agency, your chances should improve drastically. Many of them will counsel you on how to approach applications and interviews, they will broker connections with employers who can overlook such a record, and they really know the communities they work in.
Do not discount the power of your State agencies to help you as well, such as through Vocational Rehab programs.
One drawback I've found to working with these folks is that they're geared to low-income jobs, manual labor, call centers and food service type stuff. They're not well-equipped to handle professionals in industries like IT, but you can certainly help them adapt, and recognize that we're worthy of assistance too. The more professional ex-felons who approach them, the better equipped they will be to serve people like us.
26 years ago, they parked me in a homeless shelter with a newspaper and a public phone to apply for jobs. Not even a typewriter to create a résumé. It was a joke. When I was finally motivated and qualified, I found the right agencies and the right assistance, and it made all the difference in the world.
Only way I could collect unemployment was if I was working every week to find a new job and putting out applications, and they were helping me. but no one wants to touch me, through those channels. not so far.
Subsequently, they did IT contract work behind the scenes with small contractors, kept in touch with his professional network, was super helpful to the rest of us, and after serious concerns and much debate, got back into his prior career with a new employer.
I don't even know how, because normally a felony would be a no-hire, but he pulled it off, likely because he was so helpful and giving to his professional network throughout this mess.
There's a good chance he's on HN and may pop into this thread.
its a messed up story. he was devastated. and so angry he drove to the cop station after I was sentenced and flew over the counter and attacked the very first PD officer he saw. She, and a few other officers, beat the living dogshit out of him. made him look like a racoon. broke her wrist in the process-- and so that's felony assault on a police officer WITH GBI. They stuck him one floor above mine. I felt bad, now worse. Dude was a nerd, had no criminal history. he did that for me? I didn't deserve it.
in any event, we divorced while I was in prison. he got permission to see me there towards the end. took a lot of paperwork, but he did it. so we could have closure in person. got the warden to sign off. had to say a million times over that no, he was not brainwashed. no, I didn't shoot him because I love him. it was nothing like that.
only reason I got off parole was I had no restitution. and the only reason there was no restitution was because my husband remained adament that I wasn't all there. an advanced medical directive was in effect, he was actually my legal caretaker at that point. it was a lot of paperwork, notarized even. annnd it counted for nothing. there were no medical bills to pay-- his insurance covered it, there was nothing but the court costs. He had a clean entry and exit, thank god. else it would have been murder huh. went through his chest, he spent a week in the hospital. made a full recovery.
officials reached out to him one last time and asked, and he said something like "you fucks took my husband. eat shit and die." He said similar when it came to getting a statement from him. Unfortunately someone was shot, and I did shoot him, so ... there was no question on if I had committed the crime or not, even without a statement. the powder was on my hands.
I completed a 9 year sentence, all 85% of it.
today it would never happen. the judge had no ability not to send me to prison, or even run the charges concurrent. he straight up said he did not want to do it, but his hands were tied. there were three, assault with a firearm, great bodily injury, and domestic violence. because a gun had been involved. minimum mandatory sentencing. no concurrent, must be consecutive. They gave me the low, a 3/3/3, so 9 years. They wanted to send me to a drug program, but it wasn't in the cards. Not guilty by reason of insanity is a horrible idea in california, it is basically a life sentence that you will spend at least a decade, or two, proving you're sane. and maybe never able to do it. think Terminator, Sarah Conner, in the psych ward. I was advised not to go down that route. and california had already gotten rid of the diminished capacity law-- you know the dude who used the twinkie defense? yeah he really messed it up for everyone doing that.
I did my time, I didn't let my time do me. I wrote and published a sci fi trilogy, which is really hard to do in prison, but all you have is time.
I like who I am now, and what I've turned into. I worked well at various companies, but ... I wish that was still the case.
I'm proud to be 14 years clean now. I'll never go back on that stuff.
Situations like yours are what people who get off on "tough on crime" policies and push for harsher punishments for "bad guys" never stop to think about. We need judges to be able to consider an individual's unique circumstances in order to get justice, and the same is true for HR departments. Blanket polices that simply send every resume to the bin when the applicant has been arrested and/or convicted with no regard to the situation are just stupid.
You never should have been behind bars, but having served your time, you should have left with a clean record and the opportunity to rebuild your life.
What a lot of people don't consider is just how much time it is. We've become kind of used to seeing such long sentences, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. It's a lot of time, but there's something in herently bad about giving so much time-- people who are in the middle of committing violent crimes, if they think they're going to prison forever, they tend to escalate and go out in a hail of bullets.
that is not a good situation for anyone involved. not bystanders, not cops, not the criminal. it comes from pushing them to the point of no return. super harsh penalties will do that.
to be clear though, I accept full responsibility of what I did. I know what decisions lead up to the drugs. I know a dozen times that I could have chosen waaaaaay better, and I knew. I absolutely knew, even if I didn't, that I was fucking up. I knew, and it's why it won't happen again. I won't be that stupid next time.
In reality just like with policing we need better judges we need better officers we need better judges in the system the problem is how to get that nobody has solved that problem and it's easier to just write rules to make things worse for everybody instead of trying to fix the system with better people
https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/society/2022/re...
"In 2015, for example, an analysis by Swiss researchers looked at 14 studies that compared what happened when criminals were put behind bars to what happened when they were given some other sentence, such as probation or electronic monitoring, that allowed them to stay out of jail or prison. The researchers found that crime rates were just as high for people who’d spent time behind bars as for those who hadn’t."
No that is not what is boils down to, i dont even agree that prison should be viewed as a punishment at all
Prison should be for separating a person that is a danger to others until such time they are no longer a danger to others. Judges often have a bad record at picking who will be a danger and who will not thus by default for public safety the public demands people convicted of crimes be sent away for a long time to maximize the possible safety of the public at the expense of the individuals that get caught up in the system
We know that past a certain point harsher punishments in general are not a deterrent to people committing crimes so we need the public to grow a spine and reject the idea of excessive sentences since while it makes them feel safe, it's just putting them at further risk. Some facts are a hard sell to people though, especially when they're afraid.
We have a huge problem with mass incarceration in the US and the treatment of people we lock up and the conditions of those facilities need major reform, but I don't think we should abandon the idea of locking people up as a punishment entirely.
Public intoxication can dig yourself into a really deep hole, really quickly. Don't do it.
I've made companies a lot of money in my lifetime. I worked at places like exodus communications, netapp, netcom, @home. Some old names people prolly recognize. I specialize in storage, you want ceph? Ceph and I get along great. My last cluster was over 2 PB and it started out just 150TB.
It's simple in the end, I work for companies, solve their problems, make us all money. Should be simple right?
That’s one hell of a bad night.
Actually much less likely in my locale, but if I'm out of town...
I "look good on paper" and recruiters ghost me too.
I stayed self-employed after my wife's disabilities started impacting my schedule. By the time my wife moved on, I had reached the ageism stage of my career.
I'm still self-employed. Being uninsured sucks but the schedule is pretty okay.
(I've run my own 1-man software business since 2005. But I realize it isn't for everyone.)
I agree, start "working in public" and networking a bit on places like Twitter. Those things aren't really my cup-of-tea, but what I love is that the idea of pseudonymity is becoming more accepted. In the IT world, a lot of people don't care much about you except your ability to produce work.
That is one approach. I kept all my code proprietary. Depends on your goals and personality.
They do training and placements aimed at getting formerly incarcerated people into tech roles. I don't know if they work with folks like you with experience already but I'd say it's worth a try.
I used to work at Slack, which founded this program.
I'm in an EU country and it's really rare to see a company do any background checks at all. Be honest, if/when you're asked about it of course - but just from personal anecdotal experience, it's rare that somebody even bothers to ask. (this might vary of course from country to country)
another country is very unlikely to let someone immigrate (or even visit) with a criminal record
I have a squeaky clean record, was driving an 8 year old toyota camry at the time, and by all accounts appeared as the most boring non-offensive person out there trying to cross the Vancouver border with my mom and sister (who were both US citizens by then too, so it isn’t like I was transporting non-citizens across the border) for a daytrip during a weekend. And CBP went on a 10-15 mins long line of questioning about what exactly I do for work (was in a somewhat niche area of MSFT at the time, so it isn’t like they would be suspicious of the employer being shady or anything like that, but also it was really difficult to explain exactly what i do for work to someone who sounded like they just discovered the existence of software engineering and have zero idea what any of it is). Only after that got cleared up and answering a few more strangely personal questions (from me, as well from my mom and sister), they let me in. For context, they were visiting me from GA, and I was the driver. The entire process took close to 20 mins. And something similar happened at least every other time I tried to cross the WA-Vancouver border.
In contrast, crossing the border back into the US was as smooth and efficient as I could have possibly imagined every single time. Despite my passengers occasionally creating non-happy-path situations for crossing the border. On that same trip I mentioned above, my mom decided to buy some really nice looking grapes and bring them back home (which was not known to me at the time). The US officer, as we were crossing the border back into the US, asked if we were bringing anything back. My mom honestly said “oh, nothing, except these grapes.” Unknown to us, those grapes were considered invasive/harmful species that weren’t allowed to be brought into the US. All that did was adding less than an extra minute to our trip, because the border officer just calmly explained to us the situation, profusely apologized, and said that our options were to either eat the grapes or watch as he throws them away into a trash can in front of us. The whole experience from start to finish took less than 2 minutes.
P.S. Major apologies for going on a massive side-tangent. All I wanted to say was that, yeah, with any sort of a criminal record (even as minor as a misdemeanor), a lot of international options are almost instantly axed at the visa stage. Way before even getting to the “will the employer be ok with my criminal record” stage.
Until the idiots in charge change this (by enforcing the existing laws), you should take maximum advantage of its opportunities.
It's a rather ...unconventional suggestion, that clearly was not thought out. There is a high risk someone doing that ends up stateless, i.e., with no documentation or paperwork establishing citizenship in any country. The US may arrest such a person at the border - and then imprison them - and then try to deport them back to their country of origin. But what is your country of origin? It may mean a stay in immigration detention indefinitely. There's no guarantee authorities would believe a claim of US citizenship at that point. Citizens who've gotten in that position (usually cases of mistaken identity and/or misbehaviour by US customs) have been deported, and they don't always make it home. It is a potentially Kafkaesque nightmare and I would not advise intentionally putting yourself in that situation.
Rather than constructing an imaginary straw man detached from reality, please try to reply to the comment and the facts with external links to refute the information. I'm more than happy to provide further counter-factual information to whatever hifalutin nonsense is offered, as if this isn't a statement of fact.
What I'm describing is what actually happens today for the overwhelming majority of border crossings. :)
[0] https://help.asylumadvocacy.org/faqs-biometrics/
I did some terrible things when I was 19 that I won't go into details, but after working as a developer for a few years, served a six-year sentence from 2003-2009.
Upon release, I leveraged some old contacts to get a bit of contracting work. In time I found more contracting work, mostly working for smaller companies on a 1099 basis. (direct, not through a firm) In time a local contract turned into a job, and I've been with the company since. I'm the lead developer and own the entire stack, from the cloud to the front-end. I've made myself very valuable to them, and earn an income that's well over market (early on they offered me a percentage of profits as compensation)
I still continue to do contracting on a small basis (small companies tend to not bind you with onerous terms keeping you from doing so). Some of them I've even found on HN.
Anything involving a background check is a no-go. Most traditional employment situations, especially with "big" companies is a no-go. Sometimes you have to hustle a bit more, but honestly, I feel like owning your career with an entrepreneurial mindset is something everyone can benefit from.
Most of my clients have no idea about my past. A few have learned, but it didn't disqualify me. I was transparent when asked.
You got new coworkers? A lot of people start digging. I don't survive that digging.
Part of the problem is I went to prison for eight years. And I am just a computer nerd with no criminal background, I've never even had a parking ticket. I act like every other nerd in a dev environment. I love hardware, I'm very passionate about operating systems, making them run juust right.
Where it's a problem is when people look me up and are like, holy cow this is a hardened criminal! but I act... so... normal. and you wouldn't guess. it actually flips people out. it feels like I'm lying about a whole lot of things suddenly. I must be. I have to be. and it goes downhill from there. Whatever trust I earned gets taken away because people are judgmental and often not reasonable about that judgement.
You should know that if you also have a non-throwaway account, HN will unify your accounts in their backend records.
And the situation here is that felon_in_texas visits HN in his usual manner, views a topic he wants to comment on, creates an account on the spot, and leaves his comment. How noisy do you think the IP identification can be?
How?
Please be precise about how I can demonstrate this to myself.
Yes, you should assume that the moderators will know, and you should be fine with them knowing, because you’re not using the multiple accounts to escape moderation, but rather for greater anonymity in the comment thread.
The rules that I follow, which I think are implicit in “use good judgment”:
1. Don’t vote on the same thing from multiple accounts.
2. Don’t participate in the same comment thread with multiple accounts (or if you do, only separate parts of the thread). Don’t create a fake impression of consensus or have your accounts interact with each other.
Those are probably the two big ones I would imagine.
Whether the accounts are actually tied together on the backend, I don’t know. I would suspect that they are not automatically linked, but could probably be linked if the moderators are investigating you for bad behavior (like voting on the same thing with multiple accounts).
Not the first time I've used a throwaway, and they've never merged my comments into my main account (only use throwaways for these types of discussions - I assume abusing it, such as ban evasion, would be a different story)
If you have evidence of the contrary, I would love to know.
I'm an ancient linkedin account, because I made it way back when linkedin first came out. it's an easy one to remember, lol.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/werewolf/
Initially I worked in food service and on phpfreelancer. I spun that into consistent consulting work until a client offered a full time position (less than 15 people, no background checks).
As the years rolled by, I kept moving around. Eventually I tried at a large company(around 8 years ago) and nothing showed on the background check.
I do NOT recommend being upfront, unless there are no formal procedures in place and being honest actually helps. We are talking about your ability to feed and shelter yourself, so give up on the “honesty” thing. I have -never- been able to provide for myself after having been “honest”. [edit: after reading felonintexas let me update this. If someone point blank asks, tell them. Don’t volunteer this information. There is nothing to be gained]
Also, you are now an edge case. That means most advice doesn’t apply. This is both exciting and horribly anxiety driving at the same time. You will have to become comfortable blazing your own path and doing things others say is not possible.
Seriously, good luck. It is possible. It is amazing what you can do that everyone else thinks can’t be done.
A friend told me that the 2 important rules to surviving corporate environments is the following in no specific order.
1. Never lie to someone, and own what you did. Wordsmithing is a gray area but never lie, the reputation of not being truthful can follow you for decades.
2. Never volunteer information that isn't specifically asked for. This isn't a free pass to not provide critical info when your working on stuff like a project, but keep in mind that HR always can dig up info when they want to fire you or not offer you a job. Be honest and to the point, but don't volunteer info that can put you in a bad spot.
TLDR: if they don't ask, don't tell. But if they ask, be honest
so what are you going to do, tell them no? you won't get the job. tell the truth? you won't get the job. sue them? good luck. you'll need it and that does not get you the job and the settlement, if you were to win is years away, so there is no remedy. you start out combative, it's over.
there is frequently just no way to win since the ones paying are the ones not following the rules.
Guidance for New York City which is a locality with such a law:
> Job applications cannot have questions about criminal records and cannot ask you to authorize a background check. Employers cannot ask you questions about your criminal record. If you are asked about your record, your answer cannot be used against you. Employers cannot run a background check on you until after a conditional offer of employment.
> Once an employer offers you a job, they can ask about and consider your criminal record ...an employer can decide to not hire you for one of two reasons: 1. because a direct relationship exists between your conviction and the job you want; or 2. because your conviction history creates an unreasonable risk to people or property. The employer must send you its reasoning in writing, along with the background check it used.
https://www.nyc.gov/site/cchr/media/fair-chance-employees.pa...
Let's be real: This is basically impossible to enforce. This is exactly the same a gender and national heritiage (ethnicity) discrimination. It happens all the time -- there are so many mentions of it on this board. And very, very rarely is anything done about it. There are so many "weak sauce" excuses that companies can give to explain why they will not hire a candidate.
That said: I like your advice: Lie, then report when you are unfairly rejected. This is the way.
It all depends on the framing of the situation. For myself, I frame it as a few of the following, context-depending on how it's asked:
* (on a webform) "not applicable" in writing * (do you have a felony?) I do, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my role (because it really doesn't). * (will the background check yield anything we should know?) you'll see something, but it has nothing to do with the job.
If they keep pressing, and seem simply hesitant, I refer them to a webpage that articulates the story for them. It's behind me, I've grown from it to where it doesn't define me, and I'm proud that it's behind me.
If they get weird for the rest of the interview, I simply say "thank you for your time, but I don't believe this will be a good fit, please let me know if you change your mind", and I walk out of there to avoid wasting another minute with their bigotry.
Once I hit the 7-year mark, that background check won't yank any database association to my legal fiction unless they wish to dig. At that point, I can simply say "nothing will show on my background check" and it's completely honest.
The reason this continues to be a problem in the USA is because people aren't confident in what they've come through. The stigma exists because employees fold over and continue letting employers feel they have the right to discriminate over what happened, irrespective of how that person changed from their experience. I see my opposing any condescension as an effort to resist a social structure that creates a second-class citizen.
Don't tell when its not asked
My Fraternity's cook, when I was in college, was a former fellon. He worked for us for a few years before he told me about his background.
I don't remember the details, but we had a conversation where he mentioned he had experience in IT. Eventually he very briefly mentioned some high level details about his criminal record when the conversation drifted around "so if you were making big bucks, why are you now cooking for us?"
I personally appreciate that he warned me about the consequences of the super-illegal (but "grey morality") thing he did. But, I must agree, it's best to keep things like a record quiet as long as possible.
I don't know if other fraternity brothers knew about his background. It seems like the kind of thing that would be kept quiet until someone started veering into the super-illegal (but "grey morality") area that got our cook in trouble.
I'm curious to know what he did given your description.
I can think of examples of the reverse: quasi-illegal, but quite immoral.
If you think about it, we have tons of laws that don't fit into the mold of "hurting specific people" - which would definitely be "black morality" to me - but are more of either "preserving the system as it is" or even "we said it's illegal and so it is". I'm not saying none of those should exist, but I definitely would be willing to look onto some of it as a morally "gray area".
Most people like to think they are good, even when presented with hard evidence that they’re not.
I wouldn't trust a single human to be objective about the morality of their actions
I'm of the position it all drugs even medical drugs should be free to consume by anybody I should be able to walk in to CVS and get heart medication if I want or cocaine if I want if CVS is willing to sell it to me it's not for the government to decide nor government licensed agents AKA doctors to decide what I consume into my own body
My body my choice
Addictive substances are well established as a hazard not just to the individual, but to society. So I think government has an interest in avoiding/preventing/restricting addiction.
The citizens of communities ravaged by addiction all suffer, whether they individually consume the drug or not.
The idea that drug use is a victimless crime is patently false and all it takes is a few moments of thought to realize it.
No, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with adults smoking a joint after work or on the weekends if that’s what they choose to do, but it quickly devolves from there.
Sorry no... This is 3rd party Liability and that can not be the basis for a free society, as at that point everything becomes regulated
Want to go back to Alcohol Prohibition as well?
Further The Father is also free to choose a job where he makes less money that would impact the "little girl" in negative ways, or may choose to tell off his boss and get fired, will you now regulate speech "for the children"
>>The idea that drug use is a victimless crime is patently false and all it takes is a few moments of thought to realize it.
Victimless crime is defined for First Party victimization, to most people 3rd party liability is not a thing, Ford is not responsible if someone kills someones else in a F150, A Gun Manufacturer is not responsible when someone kills someone with a gun... The victims of those crimes are victim of the PERSON that victimized them, the driver or murder
Drug abuse can lead to other crimes, such as theft, and the victims of those crimes are victims of the drug user.
However you can not have a free society if you start shifting the liability upstream, at that point you get in a Pre Crime laws (which is what Drug laws are) and you end up with a whole negative effect and tyranny
What about alcohol use then? Smoking? Buying high risk stocks, options and NFTs? Investing in high-risk startups? Working for a high-risk startups? Spending 100 hours per week on work and neglecting one's family? Any of these could potentially lead to very sad consequences for not only the individual involved but for the people close to them. But once you step on this road, it can lead you to a very weird places if you're not careful. Or you may throw the consistency out of the window and just say "but this is different!" - but then I'd welcome you to explain how exactly it's different.
> but it quickly devolves from there.
This is a so called "gateway" theory, and there are many indications it is false. For example: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB6010.html
I suspect that with further legalization and de-stigmatization of marijuana use, the link would become even weaker, because most users won't devolve anywhere - as most people who drink a can of beer on a weekend do not become raging alcoholics - and the cases where a person is driven to drug use by some problems not produced (though also not solved but frequently worsened) by drugs would be recognized as such instead of blaming the evil weed for everything. (NB: not a user myself, never did, never planning to)
That's generally disproven, and demonstrates ignorance on your part.
It doesn't matter what the addiction is: Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, video games, TV, sex, work, money, religion: No government regulation can force a person to live a "good" life, and these kinds of addictions, legal or not, can have nasty negative consequences.
It just so happens that certain substances are illegal due to politics, bias, and ignorance. There's good reasons that these substances should be controlled, but how we (assuming you are in the US or country with similar laws) control them isn't working. (Banning them just creates dangerous black markets.)
When it comes to dangerous narcotics like opioids, cocaine, ect, the biggest obstacle to reform is misinformation like "a joint after work or on the weekends ... but it quickly devolves from there". That's not how addiction works; and continuing to believe and repeat misinformation like that perpetuates the problem. (IE, the misinformation makes it politically difficult in the US to to offer forms of treatment that are proven to work.)
Was part of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology, got caught, went to jail. Yeah, super-illegal. But was it immoral?
If you don't know anything about the shady stuff that Scientology did, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QsCrFANMzc is a great video to start with.
I wasn't thinking in that direction, but that totally makes sense.
Thanks.
I hafta say, it seems like you’re the one with the ego.
Edit: if I had to guess, the cook probably said something like “I made a lot more money before I worked here.” And was then asked why.
First, the commenter could have been paraphrasing a longer conversation that led to that question.
Second, the "I used to be somebody" conversation is more common than you think. Asking "If you were somebody, what happened?" is usually the question that is being invited to be asked if someone brings up this topic.
He was talking about making good money in IT, so I asked why he didn't continue working in IT. (At least that's how I remember a conversation from over 20 years ago.)
He was originally talking about playing computer games on early computers, so I thought I'd get a story about why he left tech. (IE, laid off and had to change careers, couldn't keep up with changes, didn't like the stress.) I was quite surprised that he was a felon.
He really didn't tell me much about what he did, either. I don't want to repeat much here, other than to say he got greedy.
At a high level I don't think there's anything wrong with what he did. There's plenty of legal activities that are "grey" morally: Oil companies, tobacco companies, investments (stock, 401ks,) where ordinary people don't realize the nasty things the companies they own do...
I recently underwent an extensive background check with my longtime employer and the case still showed up. Of course I had allocuted to it in advance and it was not a problem.
On the other hand we definitely hired people without speeding tickets who were likely deep agents for foreign states.
No better advice has ever been given on HN, from minor things to major stuff. Never volunteer any information about yourself to anyone in the office beyond what is required to complete your job. Never say too much about previous roles and keep it very general.
I used to work in finance. Volunteering personal information about myself led to a close friendship with the CFO of the bank I worked for. I did good work, but so did many other people. The CFO and I got along so well only because we connected as people — mostly based on our personal lives and shared interests. My relationship with that person rocketed my career forward.
I don’t mean to take away from your experience. It sucks. But volunteering personal information can be beneficial.
Your risk tolerance should factor into the decision. The story above happened very early on in my career, shortly out of college. Taking those risks, to me, at the time, was totally worth it.
While I don't have IT experience, I can tell you as someone that both worked as an electrician and a FiOs technician that I also assumed that honesty reflects well on people and would be careful not to discourage it. I started at Verizon at like age 20 with that attitude and had no record and seldom anything to hide.
I learned fast that the policy of managers in both companies was, "Encourage narratives that honesty will always result in a better outcome to all employees... And for those stupid enough to believe it, punish them severely because only when they're honest do we know with certainty they're guilty."
First time I was questioned by management at Verizon, I made sure I was ambiguous in a way that made them think I was guilty. They said I was fired immediately and I said, "I'm fired? For what? I wasn't even in the truck. I told you what happened and I told you I was up a pole. The bucket truck was 2 blocks away when I saw it all."
Their faces turned white as they realized that I can tell everyone it's a lie and they can't just dismiss me as disgruntled for getting fired.
Why did you do that?
Another thing to consider is that the outcome (which is the one I wanted) resulted in me having them by the balls. I could repeat it to them as retribution in front of other employees with records to back it up and even in front of higher management to demonstrate how grossly incompetent they are.
In this case, it's a matter of social expectations driven by the timing of that honesty:
* If someone is a completely unfiltered person and says the information audaciously and openly, the interviewer may simply see they have nothing to hide.
* On the other hand, if the person looks anxious (which could literally be nothing more than PTSD), then awkwardly blurts out the information, they may be interpreted as having more to hide, making that honesty appear worse than it is. Ironically, that was probably the optics that got my felony in the first place.
I re-binged "Last Week Tonight" a month ago. There is an episode on the prison system in the USA and the obstacles people face upon release. I remember one case where the person wrote on his job application as employed by the "State of <insert state>" while he was in prison. (it must be this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY).
I haven't been convicted of any crimes, so I don't have own experience. From people I know, they continued working in tech as contractors/freelancers, but for small fry (as big banks will be very thorough on your background (criminal/credit scoring) checks).
Doing small gigs for small companies where you don't handle personal/sensitive data can give you enough time to (as the parent suggests) have this 'forgotten'.
Would you consider moving to another country?
FINRA (Financial Industry Regulatory Authority) is the public face of the USA's "Securities and Exchange Commission". They write the rulebook on who gets to work in the industry (stockbrokers, investment bankers, and the like).
If it’s just some mom and pop shop then I fully agree. Just tell them enough to fully and honestly answer their questions without opening additional causes for concern.
https://jailstojobs.org/second-chance-employers-network/
https://www.centerforworkforceinclusion.org/our-work/formerl...
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Not sure if you have linkedin or anything but I'd like to stay connected
https://www.linkedin.com/in/saunderscaleb/
Not the same but I was sacked during a probation period because I refused to give my proof of ID details a 5th time to the HR, the same 3 pieces requested multiple times or lost. I told them to reuse those I uploaded a day or two earlier.
HR dismissed me after a single warning to give them by my line manager, and in dismissal point blank refused to say why (in probation in the UK they have no legal requirement to tell you). Obviously I cannot say HR at xyz company were incompetent and I was the scape goat.
What I did say in my next interview was what I learnt during my probation there, they needed somebody with more SQL/database skills. I had them as a senior developer, but I deliberately pushed back as it wasn't what I was hired for. In the interview I simply said I was "let go because I believe they wanted somebody more database oriented and that was not what I wanted to do" with the emphasis I was being hired at the new place as a developer not as a database specialist. That was therefore not my error and it's justifiable to want to do work you were hired for, they didn't give me an actual dismissal reason, and based on what I was told day to day could have been true.
It also helped that I completed a 2 month project (for the sacked from place) without any flaws in 3 weeks (yes they were average developers there at best).
The point being, distract and do not linger, use the disadvantage and stuff that is positive to your advantage, make no excuses because that validates their (any) misconception.
I would:
- Prep and learn as many responses for awkward questions that you can think of.
- Find relatable ways to justify the offence, but make sure you show it's been apologised for (it broke the law but anybody could fall into that trap). This may not be 100% coverable because perhaps it's unrelatable, but people wouldn't invite you to interview unless they thought you had or can redeem yourself. So for example, you mentioned drugs, I've not done them but I have done stupid things when drunk, so I can at least understand your position/state of mind.
- Find ways to (importantly, indirectly, don't dodge because being evasive will work against you) bring the topic back to accomplishments at the previous role (the one you were let go from). E.g 'I apologised to the official and the staff I worked with before I left, although shocked they thanked me for my hard work on xyz (a project that I believe went live with great success a month later)".
In the last point you leave that open because it's a distraction point, it's not you saying "despite what happened, I did loads of good work like xyz" (which is misconception validation, direct topic changing -evasive- and now requires further detail on your part which blocks them talking -they may feel they're not getting answers).
I did this approach on my follow up interview and got the position.
At the end of the day it's about owning the mistake, learning and no longer apologising (because perhaps you have already done that).
It ultimately also gives you real life street cred as a secops guy, i.e. you've can relate to a criminal element, although I'm uncertain if you could turn that into a positive - if you found out new stuff behind bars well that's a win - that could at least be an anecdote based on how relaxed/personable the interviewers are (e.g. if one tries to put you at ease by saying they did time).
Final point, don't rely on recruiters, use LinkedIn directly. Recruiters have a pool of people you join who they often field one at a time, you will be in a queue possibly at the back because the recruiter wants the best chance at getting a win with the least hassle when fighting against candidates from other recruiters. Unless you have a stand out skill they may secretly b...
That's no way to survive a career (as you found out). That's the kind of thing you use to build team camaraderie, after the 3rd time or so start posting about it in the team chat, if you're in an office put up a little sign saying "it has been ## days since I was asked for my ID", play along with any jokes about it, that sort of thing. And also politely ask your manager what's going on, and if that's normal, and send a polite email to the HR manager.
I get that it's a nuisance, but surely it couldn't have been more than a few minutes out of your day every time (and getting faster with repetition, right?).
> (yes they were average developers there at best)
Sour grapes?
Not really sour grapes btw, without going into depth that would giveaway the employer, the 3 devsnthat I worked with had been unable to implement functionality that had been invented within the last 5-10 years because they never did their own research or keep up with trends. As an analogy think akin to them only ever using traditional SQL DBs, then being shown a massive serverless distributed db that didn't use SQL, that required software redesign for eventual consistency, couldn't do ACID transactions, all needed for a small high value, short deadline project, and you get some idea of the scope of change and steep learning curve they struggled to address. I'll restate this is not the actual problem, but the scope and impact is of the same size.
If that's sour grapes by your definition then ok :), but for me for BE devs around my own age, it seems a little underwhelming.
Launch HN: 70MillionJobs (YC S17) – Job board for people with criminal records - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911467 - Aug 2017 (506 comments)
I link it here in case there might still be useful information or tips in those comments. If there are other related threads, we can list them here too.
Edit: also this (via jph's comment below):
Tell HN: I'm Afraid We're Shutting Down - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31598978 - June 2022 (353 comments)
After skimming through the threads, it looks like:
1. Bronson's business started out strong right before the pandemic and showed a lot of promise.
2. The pandemic nearly bankrupted it.
3. His business partially recovered after the pandemic, but he was unable to secure high enough wages during a period of high inflation and wage growth and so his employees kept leaving to find higher paid work elsewhere, which he sourly blamed on "The Great Resignation" and shut the whole thing down.
It was a bit of a sad story and arguably a loss of a great resource, but the positive flip side is that it suggests the economy was good enough for his workers to find better work independently rather than relying on a for-profit middleman who I would assume takes some kind of commission/fee out of the deal.
I see a lot of people who got laid off / fired who ended up with the dreaded "Resume Gap", and it's very common to spin up your own consulting/contracting firm. That way - you can claim you were self-employed, and there's no obvious resume gap.
I'm sure it doesn't fool all the recruiters, but it's got to fool a lot of them who are lazy and suck at recruiting.
I had to focus on jobs with small companies that did no checks. There were so many times I declined jobs when I saw the background check just to avoid the shame. It's a waiting game until it falls off the threshold of places caring.
Eventually I got a job as a federal contractor working with semi sensitive metadata. I didn't need a clearance but had to get a public trust. Was still grilled by DIA trying to determine if i could be compromised. I am so glad I don't have to check the box anymore and have stayed out of trouble. 2 months of jail, 3 years of probation and another 10 years of shame. Good riddance. Today I make 170k as one of the main senior engineers. Good luck!
Ps some states have laws against asking if you're a felon. Cali and Colo might be 2. Look into remote jobs in those states after researching that.
If you've been convicted of anything in the last 10-15 years, every script-kiddie docket scraper will attribute the conviction to you.
This is only useful to people willing/able to compartmentalize their past under a deadname. Then applicants can mislead the employer into running background checks on a synthetic identity that comes back clean.
Two approaches:
The more confusing you make the results of your background check, the less apparent relevance the criminal conviction for Jimmy Deere will have for Jane Doe. The hiring manager isn't the county clerk or a private investigator. He doesn't have time to unfuck your fuckary.
So when changing your name, pick one from the local obituaries or the name of a former resident of your home. Even better is if you share a name with another known criminal. Your background check will "erroneously" include information about a random dude named Jimmy with a criminal conviction, suggest you are currently incarcerated for manslaughter and DUI, and that you died last year at age 89, but you also died a decade ago at 72. With any luck, he'll distrust the results enough to hire you.
The other course I've seen is the squeaky-clean route. Adopt the name of an overseas CEO who works in the same industry you do. Then act like an expert in that field without ever explicitly claiming to be that person. It sounds insane. It fucking works. Any negative data will be glossed over by all the positive sentiment associated with your "victim." (Just don't attend the same trade shows!)
The yarn-graphing I had to do to disambiguate one individual's skinwalked identities had my colleagues calling me Pepe Silvia for months. The guy was using disparate sets of foreign-and-domestically-issued papers to establish toy companies all over the place and at one point "adopted" the identity and address of his onetime AirBNB host, who himself was a retired industry executive. It was the wildest case I've ever worked.
Synthetic identity fraud: fun for everyone!
My wife had a misdemeanor that was eventually expunged and this seems to work.
Defending yourself against a group of 5 assailants who assault you and appear intent on causing you great bodily harm, even if battery to you is stopped, no one was injured, and you use no force in excess of defense, in the current political environment, it will result in a maliciously prosecuted assault charge if they happen to be PoC and you happen to be a white man leading to:
- Stress and uncertainty for months to years
- Legal costs between $15k and $50k
- Loss of rental housing
- Moving costs, say $6k
- An inability to be hired by a major corporation because of background checks until after the charge is expunged (another $5k in legal costs and many more months of uncertainty)
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I hold the Scandinavian view, that after 20 years, a person can be very different, especially if they had a rough childhood. The US is organized around punitive prosecution and maximizing carceral suffering, has a net average problem with over-prosecuting PoC, a very high incarceration rate, over-prosecuting some crimes that aren't there, and not prosecuting thieves and vandals enough. There also isn't enough community engagement, de-escalation intervention, counseling, and diversion from the school-to-prison pipeline to care about people on a troubled path.