Ask HN: Who else is working on nothing?

704 points by g4zj ↗ HN
Everyone seems so busy building or learning the next big thing, but is anyone else working on absolutely nothing lately? If not, why not?

Optional reading:

I've always been a curious person, interested in learning new skills and finding fun and useful ways to apply them. I don't know much, but what I do know are things I've set out to learn purely out of interest. Any success in my career has been mostly luck, and being somewhat articulate in a few key areas of IT.

But not only has my professional life become monotonous and unchallenging, my drive for novelty and improvement in my personal life has also diminished greatly. In other words, I seem to have lost that curiosity. That drive to learn and apply new things.

I'm not sure why this is, but my initial suspicion is that the lack of fulfillment I've experienced in the last ~5 years or so has left me feeling like continuing down the same path is a bit of a waste of time at this point. It all just feels as though it amounts to virtually nothing.

To be completely honest, I am working on something, but that something is myself. Working through personal issues has all but completely taken priority over any external endeavors and consumed what little energy I have, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but a healthier balance would probably be ideal.

Anyone else from HN in a similar place?

287 comments

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Sometimes I worry that I'm not doing things because I've finally officially become "burned out."

But I also read an article this week that said "unstructured time" is part of a healthy and relaxing weekend routine.

Either way, I think it's a good idea to make sure you're exercising, getting lots of sleep, and eating healthy, energizing foods.

I'm working on things. Just, things I subconsciously devalue because they're not new/hard/valuable enough. So when people ask me what I work on I often answer 'nothing much' back even though those same people would find what I'm actually doing to be as hard as most jobs - which is not that much but enough. Enough is what I should answer, and maybe you too.

Everything will work itself out, these years will turn out to have a hidden purpose, or you'll eventually die and it won't matter either way. If we avoid any major moral failures till the end then we're ahead of the curve, friend. We did our part.

I love your sentiment. I've been fighting off the intrusive "when people ask me" thoughts to eliminate the absurd hypothetical shame/embarrassment. I think it's improved my life.
This is also the curse of expertise. To most people in tech, uploading a weather dataset for one zip code and making a site that spits out predictions for the weather the next day is trivial.

It would not be an impressive project to people in industry and it would not impress most hiring managers. To quote you, it would be “nothing much”. For most people who aren’t in tech, this project sounds pretty cool and is very much something.

Easy to get lost in the sauce when you spend all day soaking in it.

I would think it is impressive, but I wouldn't find it impressive enough if it doesn't beat the established methods of forecasting. I don't start anything because I doubt it would meet my standards of being not pointless and superfluous.
I’m working on a lot of things which, when I think about it, are all related to the "smolnet/smallweb". (offpunk, mainly, but also other email/gemini/blog related stuff).

It is funny because it seems that I’m now always looking for "the next small thing" instead of the "the next big thing" ;-)

Same! I took a break from my job. A couple of years ago. My new full-time engagement is myself, and it's one of the most challenging and exhausting and fulfilling jobs I've ever had. Sometimes I catch myself "wanting" to go back to the "less complex" version of myself, but there's no turning back now, and it only takes a few minutes to realize I wouldn't want to go back anyway. ;)
If you find yourself thinking “this is all for nothing”, you’d be correct. You can’t take any of this crap with you when you pass. You do what makes you happy. What makes you happy? Searching for external validation of a pat on the back for a job well done is not what makes one happy. Take a moment, pause, just be, focus on your happiness and what that means to you. Stop comparing yourself to others. Stop trying to find fulfillment through praise or purpose and instead search inwards and ask yourself “What do I like, dislike, enjoy, and am I doing those things?”. If you are just going through the motions but haven’t searched within then I suggest you take a time out and get to know you again. Remember you. Rediscover you. Or start a new path. Life isn’t a straight line.
One addition IMO: If anyone in your life tries to push you to seek their validation and do what they think you should (which is mostly just validating themselves), ignore and avoid them, or at least try to knock them down a peg.
This is a step in the right direction but it is still wrong. Yes, whatever praise or accolades you earn from work will be things you can never take with you when you pass. But the same also goes for whatever enjoyment you get from hobbies, interests or activities. You've just swapped one temporary source of happiness for another. Even if the latter is more meaningful, it is still temporary.

It is easy to suggest focusing on one's happiness but it is more useful and (more difficult) to figure out how to tackle unhappiness instead. The goal is equanimity not happiness (i.e happiness in the conventional hedonic sense). Focus on the cessation of your personal suffering.

> when you pass

Nihilism is not the belief that there is no God and life is ultimately meaningless.

Nihilism is recognizing that there is no God and life is ultimately meaningless, while continuing to sacrifice at a grinding job you hate, continuing to submit to the phony morality of those higher than you in the social hierarchy, conforming to social rituals and customs you privately think are bullshit, continuing to follow the rules of external authorities as if that might pay off in the afterlife.

Nihilism is understanding the truth, but pretending the universe is different than it really is, so you can evade personal responsibility for creating your own meaning.

Nihilism is behaving as if there is a God who gives life meaning, even when you don't actually believe that, instead of assuming responsibility for making your own meaning during the brief time you're alive.

I'm not a nihilist so I don't know whether those characterizations are accurate. It seems you are making some conflations with absurdism and pascal's wager.

Nihilism to me is about accepting the idea that there is no self but without actually having directly experienced that truth. And according to buddhism for instance, there is a way to experience a selfless existence which gives rise to true equanimity.

Without direct experience, nihilism is just another form of faith.

Correct, the one truth is Buddha and its many derivatives. We are one and we are none. That our existence itself is but a thread of wool in a spool of yarn in a fabric of life on a bed of chaos.

“Many people are alive but don’t touch the miracle of being alive” - Thich Nhat Hanh

> Nihilism is behaving as if there is a God who gives life meaning, even when you don't actually believe that, instead of assuming responsibility for making your own meaning during the brief time you're alive.

TIL I am a nihilist.

That sounds more like absurdism > the belief that human beings exist in a purposeless, chaotic universe.
Would be interesting to hear a convincing argument against that.
I think the fact that many people end up finding true, fulfilling purpose; and that miracles and seemingly unimaginable, orchestrated coincidences happen regularly, to our surprise, is well enough of an argument probably.
I don't understand why having the opportunity as an individual and species of defying entropy and all the consequences this would bring should be meaningless...
“This is a step in the right direction but it is still wrong”

You are wrong in suggesting I’m wrong. There isn’t any wrong. If you believe what you say, you would understand that and strip “wrong” from your vocabulary. There is only a way. There are many ways. The one I described was mine. The universe does not recognize your black and white thinking.

I mean this doesn’t really mean anything. There is a right view and a wrong view, and of course you can make incremental steps towards right views.

Don’t get so attached to your own opinions, that’s a form of clinging.

> Don’t get so attached to your own opinions, that’s a form of clinging.

Ironically, this is precisely what you're doing.

lol this comment is ironic on many levels, thanks
“There is a right view and a wrong view” there you go again. No, there is your own right way and wrong way. Those ways are not the same as mine per se. Stop trying to conform my world view to yours. I would highly recommend you read “The Heart of the Buddha’s Teachings” by Thich Nhat Hanh.
The terms right view and wrong view are from buddhism. There is a right view as taught by the Buddha found in his teachings. Clinging to right view is better than clinging to wrong view, even if it’s still clinging.

But following your own logic, why the resistance to my comments if my statements are neither right or wrong and is just as valid as yours? I’m not intentionally doing the things you’re accusing me of doing.

At the end of the day, may you understand the causes of your own suffering and find peace.

>The terms right view and wrong view are from buddhism

so again, from one individual or group of individuals' subjective views of right and wrong.

>why the resistance to my comments if my statements are neither right or wrong and is just as valid as yours?

Because you are accusing others of being wrong? If I said your right view is wrong, how would that make you feel? Golden Rule.

I am not the OP, but I disagree here. Happiness that we find in our social life, our friendships, family and relationships is not the same or swap-able with our career. This is something I learned the hard way, being drunk on startup cool-aid in the early life till it wore me down.

Friendships or other things I mentioned: not that everything is smooth, but there is a sense of comfort, pleasure, joy that just does not go away with more time invested. Because I am not looking for returns. Just being around is bliss.

Bumming out of a beach is very underrated. Going to a movie date is underrated. This is where my happiness lies. Then on top I write code now again, not to gain startup throne but because I like learning and typing out my thoughts in code.

The point of disagreement here is probably with regards to our definitions of happiness. What you define as happiness, I see as just forms of temporary satisfaction or pleasure.

In my opinion, I think happiness isn’t the goal since it’s temporary. Instead we should aim for equanimity which arises from the complete cessation of stress and doubt and is much harder to obtain but is longer lasting.

It might be important to take a step back. If you are a practicing Buddhist and read OPs comment, you may be right. Most are not, and they can't be shoved into the deep end of this philosophy.

Having said that, taking small steps is important. I feel OPs point is valid, in the sense that happiness comes from within, not external validation.

I would highly encourage* you to read Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. I used to look at happiness and love also from a high pedestal point of view. As if I am more intellectual and these are mere temporary illusions. This book changed my point of view. Also, I live in the land of people living in love and harmony with Buddism being a strong presence all around (Nepal, Sikkim, etc.).

I embraced life, love, bonding, friendships, heartbreaks and have never looked back.

A good read. If I had to sum it up, it would be: don't let the search for knowledge/happiness/wisdom get in the way of being able to experience it in the moment.

"It took me a long time and am not finished learning this yet, oh Govinda: that there is nothing to be learned! There is indeed no such thing, so I believe, as what we refer to as ‘learning’. There is, oh my friend, just one knowledge, this is everywhere, this is Atman, this is within me and within you and within every creature. And so I’m starting to believe that this knowledge has no worser enemy than the desire to know it, than learning.”

Pass?

I think you mean “die”.

I am frequently reminded of George Carlin's bit about "soft language" and how it obscures facts of life that we're uncomfortable about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67k9eEw9AY

His criticism of soft language about aging and death starts around the 5 minute mark

Dying is a fact now, but will it still be 50/100/1000 years from now on with current exponential technological advancements? Sooner or later it will be solved. Dying sucks on all accounts and there’s nothing positive to say about it, so it makes sense to lighten up that language. I definitely don’t want to be reminded all the time of my mortality, which is especially frustrating as it’s a problem that will be solved one day.
Verging away from the topic, but while it might be possible to imitate someone's consciousness after they've died, perhaps extremely convincingly, something tells me we'll each still find out the hard way, individually, that we've always been mortal.
Physically, immortality is impossible due to the second law of thermodynamics. Everything dies, including solar systems, galaxies, and black holes. A biological body can potentially live orders of magnitude longer than we do now, but even then people will die of accidents and natural disasters. I don't see any reason not to speak plainly about it.
The day we solve death is the day we doom ourselves.
Deathphobia is a real thing that pervades many cultures during the last century, largely driven by disposable income and technology, individualism, rejection of respect for ancestors, and marketing. It leads to a “wretched anxiety” that can for some people become an inescapable pathology. One could argue it is not death itself but the path to death and how we as a society acknowlege it that is problematic. If it is causing depression perhaps consider getting help.
The problem isn't work per se, it's our attitudes toward work and the projects that we choose to work on.

"Do what makes you happy" is a cliche that we all accept, but if you think about it, it's actually a very self-centered and egoistic way of deciding what to do. If we used different heuristics, like do what's best for your family/community/world, it might lead to very different answers than doing what makes you happy. It might even involve quite a bit more of what we call "work". Not work for the purposes of financial gain or social status, but work that improves the world for current and future generations.

That said, it's clear that our culture doesn't optimize for rewarding the kinds of work that actually make the world better. That's something we should try to correct for, rather than abandoning work as a value altogether.

It’s just semantics. Helping others makes me happy.
That might be true in your case. What makes someone else happy might be to engage in rent-seeking behavior to profit as much personally off of other people as possible. Even if maximizing personal happiness works as an ethical norm for some people, that doesn't mean that it's the best advice to give universally.
You also can’t take your happiness with you when you pass. Not disagreeing with your advice, but with the reasoning.
Why would you care what happens after you pass?
Hmm, my reading of the title was, is anyone working on something that they have a good reason to suspect will turn out to be nothing. I.e. does anyone think they are doing a bullshit job.

I am not sure how one can work on absolutely nothing unless one is happily retired/unemployed.

I'm building things that I find fun and interesting, not necessarily for profit. Of course, I have a revenue generator that I'm also keeping up. But mostly just fun these days. Currently that fun thing is building software synths from scratch, just starting from audio callback.
Working on yourself / mental health is not working on nothing - it’s probably the most important, hardest and rewarding work you can do apart from recreational work. Recreational work is all the work that is required for everything to function but that doesn’t produce anything- think of cooking, cleaning, childcare, elderly care etc. - you know all the work that traditionally is/was “women’s work”

I have come to value “productive work” much less than recreational. We have enough stuff already to last a dozen lifetimes.

Just think that the brightest minds of our generation are working on making people click more ads. And then be thankful that you are not in the same boat and OK with not being productive at all.

I like working on (relatively) nothing. I quit working a few months ago and now I don't want to go back. I've spent these months reading books about everything, working out, playing with hobbies and relaxing. The experience has reinforced for me that I don't want kids, I don't need any "lasting" legacy or any greater career success, and I want to work only enough that I can avoid it as much as I can. I want to learn everything, but I don't want to be compelled to employ that knowledge for "success".
Glad for you that you found this clarity
I have fewer personal software projects going on than I used to (in fact, almost none), and these days I think I spend a lot of the time on unimportant busywork, under the excuse that "organising myself will free me up in the future, when something interesting comes around".

However I also recently quit social media (by this I don't count IRC, HN and the Fediverse as these are mostly text-based - okay to browse in my books), quit soft drinks, quit YouTube (almost, new videos come in through my subscriptions about once a day) and started reading (albeit very slowly) after a multi-year lapse. So it's not all bad.

You can have a lot of output once you stop receiving input for a few days.
> I am working on something, but that something is myself.

I'd say you're working on the right things. Our fellow humans would like to hide behind the idea that any of this matters, but at the end of the day, it doesn't. What does matter to you is yourself and the relationships of people close to you.

I'm working on nothing. It is ok to give up the external validation of doing something, and I've found live much more livable.

"Evil comes from a man's inability to sit quietly in his own chair."

I have a six month old and have dealt with two people dying in the past three years including handling their estates. I’m lucky I have time to learn anything at work.
Hope you are doing okay, stay strong.
I am working on relocating to an area that will afford me more personal and professional opportunities in the future. I have been writing software professionally for over 20 years and there is not much left there to captivate me, so I’ve refocused my professional efforts towards softer skills. I spend a lot of my day talking to people, organizing schedules, planning, networking, writing proposals. Much like you, working on myself.
I'm currently working on nothing outside of work due to an illness.

I hate it. I was halfway through dissembling my project car's engine for some upgrades and was hoping to get started on a bathroom demo for a remodel, and that's all been delayed.

I'm also not really working on any tech right now, because for the most part, I've gotten my personal technology working how I like it. I have a spare PC I've been meaning to turn into a home theater device but I'm more motivated to work on the car.

Are you willing to share the class of illness? That's awful to hear...
It's a recovery from a respiratory illness that has made it difficult to do any work for more than about 45 minutes at a time.
I feel less hopelessness, but I’m also just working on myself. Getting into a routine, cooking, working out, making tomorrow better. Work can come next.
I used to have one or more side projects going on all the time.

With work and family, I currently don't really have the energy to make consistent progress, so instead I do very small things, mostly not software.

Like, baking a sourdough bread usually spans two days, with not too much work on each of these days. Will it be The Next Big Thing? Well, only at our next meal :-)

That's the scope of projects I can manage these days.

And that's totally fine, the world cannot sustain the same number of Big Things as there are people, so I'm fine with most of us never having one, including me.

Cooking and baking have replaced a lot of the hobby time I spent on software side projects over the last few years.

The best part about it is that you can share it with almost anyone and they’re going to appreciate it, which is hardly true of most software.

I’ve always liked Viktor Frankl’s take on this:

There is no meaning. But humans need meaning. Create your own! Absolutely anything will do as long as you find it meaningful. Just pick a goal/meaning and go for it. It’s okay to change what you find meaningful as you go through life.

I was in a similar introspective state of my life when someone recommended "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor E. Frankl. To anyone reading the comment wanting more, I'd recommend the book. The audiobook is only 4h 45m.
This is also in some way where Camus ended up.

I've faced a beginning of life pretty loaded in trauma, and a young adult life where self-inflicting some more was a comforting behaviour in the face of the absurdity of life. When contemplating suicide up close, in some of the aftermath I saw Camus' thesis as a pretty decent way to figure out some sort of "philosophy of continuing to exist".

https://bigthink.com/personal-growth/the-meaning-of-life-alb...

This is why I freaking love the movie Blade Runner 2049. It resonated with me tremendously besides being a great movie. Give it a shot if you have not!
You can spend unlimited time working on yourself. I see no unhealthy unbalance in that as long as you have no inner need or outer pressure to produce (or you are able to control both).

Personally I find it tricky, though. Am I doing nothing for this long because I am just getting lazy (-> need resolve) or depressed (-> need real help)? It does not seem to be your case, so just take your time. Take your time.

I think it’s super normal to have fluctuations in your interests and curiosities. Life would be pretty boring if we did the same thing for its entirety. I also think that focusing on yourself is something that always pays off - and will likely give you more mental and emotional capacity long term. Whenever I have periods like that I find my curiosity and drive comes back naturally if I’m patient and don’t try to force it.
I’m inquisitive so I keep my eye on the regular stream of hype and trends to find what’s actually good. My focus is math and computer science. Most of my mind is in the theoretical and pops up occasionally to do brief soul searching and give people advice. I don’t care about careers.
I'm working on nothing. I'm making great progress, I have a whole lot of nothing !
I had a period like this, I even stopped playing some games because it just was there anymore. My wife and I took a long road trip in 2021 and it gave me time to be peaceful (national parks helped a lot with this). I started grad school in 2022, it has really helped me with perspective and forces me to engage in my interests when other things are often easier. There’s drawbacks, but overall I’m happy to have motivation. In short: try something new!