I see very similar cultural clashes often in my work routine as an open-source developer (based in Europe) working in the wild. With some cultures there is a much bigger gap to fill.
I once read that France has some sort of law about photographing people who don’t want to be included in a picture in a public place. Does the UK have something similar, or is this a “little wolf warrior” misunderstanding what he can demand or do abroad?
> Members of the public and the media do not need a permit to film or photograph in public places and police have no power to stop them filming or photographing incidents or police personnel.
IANAL but "public places" is orthogonal to "private property". A mall is private property but there's no expectation of privacy because it's a "public space".
What's on that link describes a very different situation from "should you be allowed to film and post online (for profit no less) private citizens who have explicitly withdrawn their consent, just because you happen to be filming them in a public place?"
The police are public officials. The law in question says it is not illegal for citizens to record public officials, including police officers. I would imagine this is partly to help citizens keep their police force accountable. So this person was well within their rights to 'not have a private conversation' with the police officer.
But it's a very different situation from, say, filming someone who does not wish to be filmed, or harassing someone in public by filming them and then posting online publicly, and pretending it's fine just because you were in a 'public place'.
The technical legality of the situation aside, given that these individuals politely (initially) requested their faces be not shown on public youtube videos (for profit no less), and this person made no effort to even blur at the very least, then I have a hard time finding right with him.
We're not even talking about whether a private individual should have the right to film such that this might be presented as evidence in a court of law if required. So this is not a free speech issue. This person is simply putting it on youtube for money. Without reasonable consent. Yes not everyone in the video needs to give consent, as this can be implied if they walked through a scene and the recording was 'non-hidden'. But these people explicitly denied consent. There must be some sort of GDPR thing at play here at the very least.
If the police doesn't have such rights to stop filming anyone. I guess we can imagine a CCP rando probably don't have more permission than police.
Apart from that, it's sensible to understand if you're just background on somebody's recording in a public space and don't want to appear, just walk away.
> if you're just background on somebody's recording in a public space and don't want to appear, just walk away.
He approached them first. They declined participating and in about 3 minutes one woman approached him back and asked not to put their faces on TV - that's when the whole fuss had started.
Watch the full livestream. The Chinese group approaches the piano first, and one woman even dances along to his playing.
Later a few more people join the Chinese group, one of which appears to be a producer as he's handing out scripts. The piano player approaches the Chinese group to say hi to the new members, and suddenly they have a problem with him filming.
The simplest explanation is the most likely - they're a Chinese TV crew who want to use the piano, but they don't have a commercial filming permit and/or UK working visas.
in germany this applies only to people who are subject of the recording. as in this case the subject of the recording was the piano players, and other people were just background, the right does not apply. if they didn't want to be filmed they should have walked away.
> I once read that France has some sort of law about photographing people who don’t want to be included in a picture in a public place.
For more details, it is not about photographing people (it is perfectly legal in public places) but publishing (in any form, press or social media) the picture. The law apply if you single out a person or a group of person (so if someone is in the background and not the main focus of the picture/video, the law doesn't apply) and if a prejudice of any form can be attributed to the picture.
This video would actually be an interesting case (if it was in France), because one could argue that the people asking not to be in the video where not the main focus and therefor would not be protected by law. But at the same time, the way it was published put a strong emphasis on the fact that they asked not to be in the video, therefore making them the main focus of the video, even though it is of their own volition.
But there is an exception to the law that would probably apply in this case:
You can't restrict the right of publishing the video is it is in the context of a demonstration, a "manifestation" (that means more an event in French), or that it is news worthy or of public interest.
As the Chinese were there demonstrating to support the Chinese CCP propaganda or something or that sort, anyone could have recorded them directly in isolation I think.
If I peed in my pant (or in a similar awkward situation) and someone happened to have filmed it. What kind of legal rights (if any) do I have to remove my shameful moment from the Internet?
The title of the video is "Police Called To Stop Filming During Piano Livestream".
There are no indications that the people who (very wrongfully) approached them are members of the CCP. They may well be but there's nothing in the video supporting that.
I'm now slightly intrigued as to what they are actually doing. By their accents, they've clearly been in UK for a while, are gathered for some kind of patriotic celebration or whatever, and very much don't want to be filmed.
It's most likely just a university compatriot get-together or something similar, but this is the fuel of conspiracy theories, sleeper cells, etc.
Some people just don't want to be filmed in public. My wife is Korean and would probably act the same way (half because in Korea it's illegal). I couldn't care less, but I can think of a few people I know who would have the same reaction (for a multitude of reasons) as this group. What if they're protesting AGAINST the CCP, using Chinese flags to get people's attention then telling them about issues going on with the Uyghurs? This guy puts them on YT and now the CCP is looking into them. I'd say that's just as probably as them being CCP (no indication in the vide).
I mean... you can't put forward a case on why I'm wrong because you have no clue, just like I have no clue. At least I put forward a viable alternative vs just "lol"'ing at you.
The woman in the video posted a tweet explaining that they were there to film their own video that was meant to be secret until after Chinese new year. You can see they have their own camera with them in the video
>they are waving PRC flags, therefore they are 'patriotic'.
>but maybe not members of the CCP, as the poster pointed out.
I'm not claiming that because they're patriotic that they're CCP members. In fact if you read my comment more carefully I'm claiming the opposite, by pointing out how absurd it is to assume a patriotic American to be a CIA agent. I'm not sure how doing so is "kindness".
Yeah this bugs me - the police offer says "you can't just call them communists" and he says "I just said they're holding a communist flag, is that wrong?" and then uploads the video saying it's CCP. If this had been a British person who didn't want to be filmed would this video been making quite the stir? It just feels like he's milking it.
He is definitely milking it. Note that he's absolutely in his right to film and publish this. The people complaining have no standing which is why in the end it got filmed and published.
Also the policewoman's stance was absolutely disgraceful.
He's post a follow up video where he reads anonymous mail from "chinese" sender trying to explain/characterize how the group is obviously some intelligence op with handlers as if they're exposing some conspiracy. When it's just a bunch of people holding Chinese flags (hows that from communist tradecraft) for some function (and a white dude @2:09) and don't want to be recorded. Also doing interview circuit.
Yeah - what harm would there be in just respecting they didn't want to be filmed or kept being asked to dance? Sure they were annoying too, they could have walked away (unless they were doing a job they had to be in that spot), but he's obviously the one with more power here. It's just a stupid fight that happened in a public place that's now being spun by an influencer into more views.
The reason he's going viral is that those were high ranking CCP, lets say alleged intelligence operatives, operating in the UK. I don't think he knew it at the time of uploading the video.
>The reason he's going viral is that those were high ranking CCP, lets say alleged intelligence operatives, operating in the UK. I don't think he knew it at the time of uploading the video.
The reason he's going viral is surprising amount of sinophobes believe a racist when he claims a Chinese person holding a Chinese flag are high ranking CCP officials or even more idiotic, intelligence operatives. Because holding Chinese flag is very good trade craft for spies.
The Chinese lady in the video does career advice videos / planning for Chinese international students who wants to find employment in UK.
He knows chinese folk and meme songs. He plays for chinese people often. There's no 'sinophobia' here.
Flipside, you can see the flanking 'security' in the original video who were clearly there as well. That's a big group and an awful lot of skilled security for a 1,200 subs youtube influencer.
Did I suggest she's an influencer extraordinaire? She makes career advice videos for Chinese international students. She has a small channel with small views like most entrepreneurs at this level.
What skilled flanking security? You mean a bunch of other Chinese people in the group? A woman in the 30s isn't old enough to even be an important bureaucrat under PRC system that is tacitly gated by age.
>He knows chinese folk and meme songs
Yes, the old I have a Chinese wife and can't be racist rationale. He got into a confrontation a Chinese lady and just casually accused her of being a CCP sychophant, and doubling down on follow up videos giving noise to conspiracy that this group is some Chinese op. That's as sinophobic as it gets. If this happened to even a Russia who didn't want to be filmed I doubt he would be screaming Kremlin KGB ops.
There are. Apparently one woman from their group (Christina Lee), which appears in the video in the background, was designated by the MI5 as an agent of influence of the CCP. That is one of the possible explanations for their demands to have the video to be removed.
One member of the group of waving the Chinese flag in Brendan's direction. He seems to have touched the flag or put his hand forward to touch the flag. The man with the group starting yelling very loudly "stop touching her". But it wasn't a desperate cry for help, it was very deliberate and forced in a way. He realized all of the sudden he could get Brendan in trouble.
The other members in the group were happily smiling in the background, obviously not bothered by this horrible "touch assault". When police came, the Chinese man immediately ran towards the police to be the first to tell his story.
So there seems to be some awareness that "touching" is not allowed here, but I think with a bit practice they might find out about Streisand effect and filming in public too
text book public bullying trick #23 ... use any reason or no reason to viciously announce as loud as possible that you feel threatened and then some loud remarks to manifest your moral high ground. disgusting. experienced it myself at least once.
It looks like the individuals were trolling him ("don't share video online that shows us in the picture...") or just trying to pick a fight.
Unfortunately, these days you have to assume that someone is taking video or photos in public space and it might mean you end up online without your permission. In very rare cases such a video might go viral which then can draw attention to yourself.
Why would they be trolling him? They're asking for the basic courtesy of not having their faces shown online, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It seems like the pianist is the one who wanted to pick a fight: instead of getting the cameraperson to point away from them and explaining the situation politely, he went on a rant on how they're not in "communist" China, and it's a free country.
In general, the whole approach towards them seems sketchy. Earlier in the video he calls it a group of Japanese people, despite them clearly having Chinese flags, and he asks them if they can dance. That's a bit weird, isn't it?
> Why would they be trolling him? They're asking for the basic courtesy of not having their faces shown online, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It seems like the pianist is the one who wanted to pick a fight: instead of getting the cameraperson to point away from them
This is a huge public area with lots of empty space (I looked at the video). When I see people recording themselves in public and I think I might be in the picture, I get out of the frame (or turn my back), rather than go up to them and insist "don't post any video that shows my face".
Yes, he engaged them on principle - I agree with his principles, but he should have just ignored the people antagonizing him.
In the beginning, as you reference, Brendan Kavanaugh was talking with a friend of his who is producing video with a group of Japanese people (I think they were news people). There was some confusion about whether the red-scarf group was Japanese or Chinese initially, due to the fact Brendan had just been talking about the Japanese group. He was corrected, all was fine, he was greeted and shook hands with one of the Chinese women, and then a Chinese man played the piano (only one piece - and NOTE they never asked if they could use the piano for a longer time to film their piece for "Chinese TV".)
The Chinese (several of whom were living in the UK/or are a British citizen) did try to explain they owned the rights to their own images, and could he delete/not film them?
Brendan asked a lot of questions for clarification - and I felt he was purposely being dense - didn't give an inch. And that was his right. **By the way, Brendan did not rant. He asked.
The Shouty Guy knew he couldn't win so he went to Plan B - His tactics: to make a scene, shout, intimidate, make false accusations, play the victim, etc.
It still isn't clear if the primary woman saying loudly, "Don't shoot! Don't shoot him!" meant there was a weapon or if she meant camera/shoot.
So, some asian-looking people asked the guy not to film them and the guy decided to be a loud dick about the whole thing, while almost assaulting one of the women.
"CCP members threaten British public piano player", right.
I get that some countries still don't have a legal requirement to blur people in the background (or at least when they asked you to), but this is a common courtesy and basic politeness every semi-professional vlogger understands.
It was pretty evil of the Asian-looking guy shouting "DON'T TOUCH HER" "You're not of the same age".
He was threatened and only escalated to be a dick about it after they were a dick to him. He is also quite well within his rights, trying to intimidate him to stop doing it is pretty fucking evil as well.
> It was pretty evil of the Asian-looking guy shouting "DON'T TOUCH HER" "You're not of the same age".
It was hysterical, but I don't see how is this evil, more like being protective. And it happened way past the point of conflict
> He was threatened and only escalated to be a dick about it after they were a dick to him.
How was he threatened? These people were barely speaking English, which the guy started mocking from the very beginning of the conversation, before he could even figure out what they were even asking for.
> Have we watched the same video?
Honestly asking the same question. Am rewatching 9:00-10:00 how the lady tries to ask the guy not to film, but he just mocks her: "No disco? No disco? Whot, the ChInEsE GoVeRnMeNt will jail us?"
How is this not being a dick?
At about the 10:00 another asian guy steps in and says "basically we ask you, whatever you do, don't publish our faces on TV, we will appreciate that"
The piano guy responds: "What happens if I don't?"
The asian guy responds: "We'll just really just appreciate if you do. We are very sensitive to this kind of thing. Sorry, we really like your music, yada-yada".
The asian guy clearly tries to deescalate and ask nicely, while the piano guy is all like "oh yeah? Watcha gonna do?"
How is this threatening?
> He is also quite well within his rights
So are people who listen to loud music when a baby is sleeping next door. They are quite within their rights, but this hardly makes them any less terrible people for doing it just to make a point.
1. They're in public. Recording is allowed and doesn't need your consent. If you don't want to be recorded, just leave or move away.
2. They ASKED to not be filmed on public and the answer they got was no but they decided to stay and continue to be filmed. The British guy is not obligated to be nice and when this happens just leave.
3. If the Asian guys really wanted to deescalate the situation, they would have left ages ago. They stayed because they think they are in the right to force the British guy to not flim them.
If that Chinese dude were to do that here in Manila Philippines, he would get beat up real good. He's lucky to be in an good country and not some 3rd world country where their so-called "rights" are spat on by the public.
There is a whole genre on youtube of people who go out and bother people in public with cameras "because it's their right". Check out "Amagansett Press". Fine, people have their rights.
That said, In film school, we were taught that we can film anyone in public and that's our right, and also taught that if you film someone in public and they come up and tell you it's a problem, it's polite to not publish their likeness/delete the image. I always did do, but quite a few kids in class couldn't care less.
I assume that's where the idea of taking a legal action comes from, but that should be irrelevant.
If someone asks you not to publish their faces, especially after you were the one to approach them first in the first place, you just do it. Period. All it takes is a single note and 30 seconds of time during editing.
Its a PRC flag. I don't think "CCP" flag is even a thing. CCP or Chinese isn't a race, so I don't get the "race blindness" bit at all.
> The way they acted when asking not to be filmed was very impolite.
Was it? I see a woman carefully approaching the guy and calmly and quietly asking if they were in the video, trying to communicate that they don't want to be. There is a clear language barrier and the guy mocks her when she tries to approach in different ways.
I'd say the guy is clearly behaving like a dick and is actively looking for conflict.
Ironically the very next video YT suggests on this channel is named "security goons try to ban music and failed", suggesting that the guy really has a certain way about himself.
Challenge of who is a bigger dick: a guy who is openly racist, makes fun of other people language skills and makes it a principle to act like a dick vs the guy who got hysterically overprotective - a challenge we truly deserve.
I don't personally believe in the "bigger dick" narrative when the whole point of trolling is provoke someone to loose their cool. The piano guy spend good few minutes poking those asian people, making fun of them and even tried grabbing one of them.
The biggest dick is the one who is looking for conflict, not the one whom they found during their trolling quest.
Well it's really hard to establish bigger dickness, although the Chinese was very polite the rest of the time, making up an assault case is pretty dicky (and probably criminal).
I don't know about the racism though, it's possible but he might simply not like the Chinese government and political system (and assume that waving a Chinese flag means supporting it, which was probably the case).
> making up an assault case is pretty dicky (and probably criminal).
The pianist actually did try to grab that woman, look at the video.
I can't even say if the asian guy overreacted because I can't imagine myself being in the same conversation and not busting the pianist's nose or balls - and that's what would have probably happened if the pianist gave the same attitude towards a random white British girl off camera.
> I don't know about the racism though, it's possible but he might simply not like the Chinese government and political system
He was calling them "Japanese" while cracking jokes about "Chinese government" and mocking their language skills, while the woman he tried to grab was explaining to him that she is actually British. That's clearly racist.
One's political preferences is never an excuse of such a behavior towards individuals - a lot of people tend to forget that.
> and assume that waving a Chinese flag means supporting it, which was probably the case
Tourist groups often use flags in order to keep track of the group members. Thousands of people use the Union Jack or the US flag as a mere garage decoration.
There are myriad of possible reasons a person could be holding some nations flag other than to show support for a certain political force within that nation.
> The pianist actually did try to grab that woman, look at the video
Although his hand can't be seen, it definitely seems he just came closer to the flag or hand
It's for sure extremely unlikely he was assaulting, which is what the scream of the Chinese implied.
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> He was calling them "Japanese" while cracking jokes about "Chinese government" and mocking their language skills, while the woman he tried to grab was explaining to him that she is actually British. That's clearly racist
That's compatible to just not liking the Chinese dictatorship, and it's typical for the Chinese government to accuse of racism anyone who criticizes them.
There might be racism here though.
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> There are myriad of possible reasons a person could be holding some nations flag other than to show support for a certain political force within that nation.
I'm not Chinese but I don't think I'd be happy to hold that flag if I didn't support the CCP system.
After all the biggest star represents the CCP.
But it might well be so that in some occasions (e.g. sport events) you genuinely use it with good intents.
Actual racism towards Asians is in any case very rare, in my experience
Anyhow, Chinese citizens are mostly victims, and you should indeed not treat them in that way for what their government does.
You are exactly making China look good with your "help".
> He was calling them "Japanese"
Due to a misunderstanding. He had just talked with another guy who was expecting a Japanese crew to show up so they could do some filming. He thought the Chinese people were the Japanese crew.
He isn't racist. There are older videos of him positively interacting with what looks to be Chinese. If he didn't like the Chinese government and political system before he definitely doesn't like now (as nobody should). Claims of racism are nonsense.
In this video, something that amaze me and that is quite unique to UK in my opinion is how correct and respectful are the police officers.
In most countries, they would have used (and abused) of their authority to yell at the guy. Telling him that he has to shut up whatever they say even if not true. And otherwise it would be police offense.
Here, despite the tension they keep their calm, try to stay respectful and not aggressive and do what they can to defuse the situation.
In my opinion, it works very well to have the person in front reduce their aggressivity.
They can also sound this way when they are incorrect and disrespectful.
Ask any young black person who has chuckled at a police officer who has rolled out the "strong smell of cannabis" excuse on a public street to single them out rather than the pungent, oblivious white stoner walking ahead of them who you can still smell 100 feet away!
part of the reason is that german language still distinguishes between personal and formal adressing, whereas in english it is all "you". using a firstname is clearly informal, although i feel that in this video the addressing does not come across as informal or showing lack of respect, more like familiarity of some form that this policewoman somehow allowed.
german/austrian culture is still very much about respect. and as i wrote on a seemingly completely different topic yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39077136 german/austrian culture is way more conservative than the rest of the world (and austria is more conservative than germany) , at least for western ideas of what is conservative. in different aspects some asian cultures (most notably japan) are extremely conservative in their own way.
Thanks for taking the time to provide an explanation. This also helps me contextualize some of the interpersonal friction I've had with Austrians as well. I'm very informal and American and consciously attempt to treat those around me as peers.
as an austrian who has lived in the US for a few years and many other places in the world, i came to appreciate that style. the friendliness may be superficial with some people but it only takes a few interactions to find out, and, what is much more important, in many situations it doesn't even matter. when i am in a shop, i don't care if the staff are friendly deep down in their heart or only acting friendly because they want to sell something (well duh, it's a shop). shopping in the US is still more pleasant because i am guaranteed that people will be friendly (and if they are growling internally because i didn't buy anything, it's their problem not mine). in europe friendly people exist, but it's luck of the draw.
Also: middle-aged white British guy talking about the CCP is a bit of a British alt-right trope; it's a term that is flung around in any context where rights, authority or infringements are discussed.
So it's not remotely surprising to see it applied to actual Chinese people, whether there's justification or not.
The chinese guy becomes a huge moron when he claims he touched her, but the pianist is a big jerk as well.
Calling "freedom" the right to film (and publish on YouTube) anyone is ludicrous (yeah I know how many Americans do that).
Your freedom ends when others' freedoms begin, and if you had to assume that everything you do in public would be stored forever for the world to see your freedom just tanked.
That's already what your assumption should be.. don't go out in the public if you don't like to be filmed. We have freedom laws specifically for this so I am failing to see your point for this? Public spaces are _public_ .
My point is, you're being filmed in most all public spaces all the time. Some rando filming doesn't really change the amount of privacy you do or don't have.
Then send me a link of a CCTV camera around your local mall or train station. They only publish it if it will be used for the news / evidence of a crime.
You mean to say CCTV footages in its entire duration gets profit?
These guys were literally just filming themselves playing the piano, when they were approached by people completely outside the view of the camera telling them to stop.
Largely yes, but then the pianist did approach and have them specifically filmed
I think the Chinese didn't move because they were recording something and wanted to do it in that place, but most of all they wanted what had already been recorded of them to be deleted / blurred.
Sure it's a little ironic if they were recording themselves, but in many countries you expect it to be a right to have recordings of you at least not distributed (and it is ironic for PRC people to talk about rights).
In the UK filming in public and publishing the film anywhere is indeed a right and freedom, so you're mocking British concepts of freedom and the pianist for defending it.
It's ludicrous to claim you have a right to force others to avert their cameras when you are out in public, and that otherwise, your rights are violated. If you don't want to be seen, wear a mask. The public and its eyes/cameras don't belong to you.
You're not forcing people to act in any way by filmimg them. Filming is not an act of force, and yet you advocate employing state force to restrict it.
You haven't described any aspect of filming you that forces you to do something, yet still maintain a right to use force against those who film in public.
Unacceptable behavior would be unacceptable camera or no camera, since you're in public (even in countries that limit recording you generally can record illegal behavior, if it's to report it to law enforcement).
But the minimal standard for simply walking among strangers and for being recorded forever for the world to see is very different, if you care about your dignity.
And that's all assuming there are surveillance cameras to limit other actions in the first place
Your freedom to not be recorded in public ends where others' freedom to record still pictures and live video begins. I am surprised that your are learning about competing interests so late in life. Some countries come down on the side of the person doing the recording, and other countries come down on the side of the person not wishing to be recorded.
Since not recording (or blurring) is a much lesser sacrifice, and for millennia you could rely on cameras and YouTube not being around, it's easy to decide which side to favour.
At this point I wonder if this recording freedom idea was one of those used to spread surveillance cameras (I wasn't following English media at the time)
The thing is that the Chinese people didn't want to be filmed because they knew it will be published on Youtube for revenue and that's what they didn't want. They allow people to film on a normal basis because it will not be published for profit. That's what Brendan didn't understand in the first place.
The Chinese man was in the wrong for escalating the situation gathering more attention and it seemed like he was making it look like they were being oppressed. We need the side of the Chinese people on this. We'll see.
They were in the wrong for thinking they could force someone to stop recording their faces in public. "Please don't record us. No? Okay. Have a nice day." The Chinese people need to learn to abide by the customs, rules, and etiquette of the countries they visit, work in, or live in.
Brendan tried to get the Chinese woman to "dance" and made a remark that British girls are more fun which was really inappropriate and disrespectful when the Chinese woman respectfully disagreed to dance.
The Chinese woman then again respectfully requested to not film them in a nice tone and not in a condescending way well at least not to me.
Brendan then again started to retaliate and did not respect the request which is by the way, not that hard to honor such a request. Brendan could've moved on and just played music after that but instead, he wanted to make a fuss about it and for me, it looked like he tried to escalate it.
The Chinese guy then comes in to explain in a very commanding voice because Brendan isn't listening and being dismissive of the whole thing. He explained clearly that they do not give consent on being included in the video because they are way in the background and Brendan had the camera point to the Chinese group in the background for the "dance" request.
The Chinese guy then sounds frustrated when his initial request was not even acknowledged by Brendan and was answered in retaliation by asking a question instead of respecting the request which should've been a fair request to begin with.
Brendan then escalates further by saying "We are not in Communist China" which was way out of line and very racist because in this conversation, their country of origin is irrelevant. They are just people asking not to be included in the video which by the way is used for profit. It's not a Chinese thing to not be included in any video by the way.
To me, Brendan / Dr. K was in the wrong in this one. He clearly did not listen and tried to be a dick about it making it all about "FREE SPEECH" when clearly it's not.
> to not film them in a nice tone and not in a condescending way well at least not to me.
> Brendan then again started to retaliate and did not respect the request which is by the way, not that hard to honor such a request.
It was a livestream - to stop recording means ending the stream, which he didn't want to do when there's thousands of viewers watching.
If the group didn't want to be filmed, they could have just..moved out of camera shot.
That was the easiest way for a very peaceful conversation but the Chinese nationals looked like they wanted smoke and fought for what they thought was right.
It escalated because Brendan retaliated and we ended up with this mess.
The word you are looking for is responded. Brendan responded in a way they didn't appreciate. That is not retaliation or even escalation. It's disagreement.
The other party attempted to assert their right to not have their likeness published online. As they are in the United Kingdom and not in China, the statement of this clear fact and Brendan's assertion of his rights to film in public and publish that video were proper.
The other party were being ignorant of, insensitive to, and intolerant of the customs and norms of the people of the United Kingdom. You are in the wrong for claiming racism when this was a clash of cultures.
Given how predictable this kind of mob reaction was, I still maintain the person filming was a dick; within legal rights or otherwise. Some of the comments here gleefully implying FAFO / Streisand Effect and the like, are baffling to say the least.
"very sensible"
- Starts off describing own group in glowing terms.
- Centers piano as flashpoint while ignoring own group's demands to not be recorded, to stop streaming, and to delete video.
- Ends up impugning and blaming streamer.
This isn't a sensible response. This is casting blame solely on the other party. A guilty child could have written this. Stop falling for this.
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[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 220 ms ] threadhttps://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/ph/p...
The police are public officials. The law in question says it is not illegal for citizens to record public officials, including police officers. I would imagine this is partly to help citizens keep their police force accountable. So this person was well within their rights to 'not have a private conversation' with the police officer.
But it's a very different situation from, say, filming someone who does not wish to be filmed, or harassing someone in public by filming them and then posting online publicly, and pretending it's fine just because you were in a 'public place'.
The technical legality of the situation aside, given that these individuals politely (initially) requested their faces be not shown on public youtube videos (for profit no less), and this person made no effort to even blur at the very least, then I have a hard time finding right with him.
We're not even talking about whether a private individual should have the right to film such that this might be presented as evidence in a court of law if required. So this is not a free speech issue. This person is simply putting it on youtube for money. Without reasonable consent. Yes not everyone in the video needs to give consent, as this can be implied if they walked through a scene and the recording was 'non-hidden'. But these people explicitly denied consent. There must be some sort of GDPR thing at play here at the very least.
Apart from that, it's sensible to understand if you're just background on somebody's recording in a public space and don't want to appear, just walk away.
He approached them first. They declined participating and in about 3 minutes one woman approached him back and asked not to put their faces on TV - that's when the whole fuss had started.
Watch the full livestream. The Chinese group approaches the piano first, and one woman even dances along to his playing.
Later a few more people join the Chinese group, one of which appears to be a producer as he's handing out scripts. The piano player approaches the Chinese group to say hi to the new members, and suddenly they have a problem with him filming.
The simplest explanation is the most likely - they're a Chinese TV crew who want to use the piano, but they don't have a commercial filming permit and/or UK working visas.
For more details, it is not about photographing people (it is perfectly legal in public places) but publishing (in any form, press or social media) the picture. The law apply if you single out a person or a group of person (so if someone is in the background and not the main focus of the picture/video, the law doesn't apply) and if a prejudice of any form can be attributed to the picture.
This video would actually be an interesting case (if it was in France), because one could argue that the people asking not to be in the video where not the main focus and therefor would not be protected by law. But at the same time, the way it was published put a strong emphasis on the fact that they asked not to be in the video, therefore making them the main focus of the video, even though it is of their own volition.
You can't restrict the right of publishing the video is it is in the context of a demonstration, a "manifestation" (that means more an event in French), or that it is news worthy or of public interest.
As the Chinese were there demonstrating to support the Chinese CCP propaganda or something or that sort, anyone could have recorded them directly in isolation I think.
There are no indications that the people who (very wrongfully) approached them are members of the CCP. They may well be but there's nothing in the video supporting that.
It's most likely just a university compatriot get-together or something similar, but this is the fuel of conspiracy theories, sleeper cells, etc.
they are waving PRC flags, therefore they are 'patriotic'.
but maybe not members of the CCP, as the poster pointed out.
>but maybe not members of the CCP, as the poster pointed out.
I'm not claiming that because they're patriotic that they're CCP members. In fact if you read my comment more carefully I'm claiming the opposite, by pointing out how absurd it is to assume a patriotic American to be a CIA agent. I'm not sure how doing so is "kindness".
... crap- they're ON to me ...
Also the policewoman's stance was absolutely disgraceful.
This is not a sign of good faith, in my experience.
I've watched him for years, he's always pulling hilarious stunts, plus the music is awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH6-PVn8HVE
The reason he's going viral is that those were high ranking CCP, lets say alleged intelligence operatives, operating in the UK. I don't think he knew it at the time of uploading the video.
The reason he's going viral is surprising amount of sinophobes believe a racist when he claims a Chinese person holding a Chinese flag are high ranking CCP officials or even more idiotic, intelligence operatives. Because holding Chinese flag is very good trade craft for spies.
The Chinese lady in the video does career advice videos / planning for Chinese international students who wants to find employment in UK.
https://www.youtube.com/@mengying6582/videos
600 views is ground breaking on her videos. Practically a youtube influencer extraordinaire.
So here's the thing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6tmlXm7pMc
He knows chinese folk and meme songs. He plays for chinese people often. There's no 'sinophobia' here.
Flipside, you can see the flanking 'security' in the original video who were clearly there as well. That's a big group and an awful lot of skilled security for a 1,200 subs youtube influencer.
What skilled flanking security? You mean a bunch of other Chinese people in the group? A woman in the 30s isn't old enough to even be an important bureaucrat under PRC system that is tacitly gated by age.
>He knows chinese folk and meme songs
Yes, the old I have a Chinese wife and can't be racist rationale. He got into a confrontation a Chinese lady and just casually accused her of being a CCP sychophant, and doubling down on follow up videos giving noise to conspiracy that this group is some Chinese op. That's as sinophobic as it gets. If this happened to even a Russia who didn't want to be filmed I doubt he would be screaming Kremlin KGB ops.
Impersonating a police officer is a crime. If you have any evidence that's occurring in the video, please get in touch with the Met Police.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62179004
One member of the group of waving the Chinese flag in Brendan's direction. He seems to have touched the flag or put his hand forward to touch the flag. The man with the group starting yelling very loudly "stop touching her". But it wasn't a desperate cry for help, it was very deliberate and forced in a way. He realized all of the sudden he could get Brendan in trouble.
The other members in the group were happily smiling in the background, obviously not bothered by this horrible "touch assault". When police came, the Chinese man immediately ran towards the police to be the first to tell his story.
So there seems to be some awareness that "touching" is not allowed here, but I think with a bit practice they might find out about Streisand effect and filming in public too
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
Unfortunately, these days you have to assume that someone is taking video or photos in public space and it might mean you end up online without your permission. In very rare cases such a video might go viral which then can draw attention to yourself.
This is a huge public area with lots of empty space (I looked at the video). When I see people recording themselves in public and I think I might be in the picture, I get out of the frame (or turn my back), rather than go up to them and insist "don't post any video that shows my face".
Yes, he engaged them on principle - I agree with his principles, but he should have just ignored the people antagonizing him.
And they have not heard of the Streissand effect.
If truly understood their sentiment, it's probably way less uncomfortable to be published actively protesting the use of your image.
"CCP members threaten British public piano player", right.
I get that some countries still don't have a legal requirement to blur people in the background (or at least when they asked you to), but this is a common courtesy and basic politeness every semi-professional vlogger understands.
Just don't be evil.
He was threatened and only escalated to be a dick about it after they were a dick to him. He is also quite well within his rights, trying to intimidate him to stop doing it is pretty fucking evil as well.
Have we watched the same video?
It was hysterical, but I don't see how is this evil, more like being protective. And it happened way past the point of conflict
> He was threatened and only escalated to be a dick about it after they were a dick to him.
How was he threatened? These people were barely speaking English, which the guy started mocking from the very beginning of the conversation, before he could even figure out what they were even asking for.
> Have we watched the same video?
Honestly asking the same question. Am rewatching 9:00-10:00 how the lady tries to ask the guy not to film, but he just mocks her: "No disco? No disco? Whot, the ChInEsE GoVeRnMeNt will jail us?"
How is this not being a dick?
At about the 10:00 another asian guy steps in and says "basically we ask you, whatever you do, don't publish our faces on TV, we will appreciate that"
The piano guy responds: "What happens if I don't?"
The asian guy responds: "We'll just really just appreciate if you do. We are very sensitive to this kind of thing. Sorry, we really like your music, yada-yada".
The asian guy clearly tries to deescalate and ask nicely, while the piano guy is all like "oh yeah? Watcha gonna do?"
How is this threatening?
> He is also quite well within his rights
So are people who listen to loud music when a baby is sleeping next door. They are quite within their rights, but this hardly makes them any less terrible people for doing it just to make a point.
That said, In film school, we were taught that we can film anyone in public and that's our right, and also taught that if you film someone in public and they come up and tell you it's a problem, it's polite to not publish their likeness/delete the image. I always did do, but quite a few kids in class couldn't care less.
Different strokes.
That's my point, that's just basic politeness.
Yeah, not a chance.
If someone asks you not to publish their faces, especially after you were the one to approach them first in the first place, you just do it. Period. All it takes is a single note and 30 seconds of time during editing.
But the pianist is probably deep into "free speech", "auditor" and generally right-wing bs
They were waving CCP flags, so making that sounds like some kind of race blindness is a bit wild.
> but this is a common courtesy and basic politeness every semi-professional vlogger understands.
The way they acted when asking not to be filmed was very impolite.
> Taiwan/ROC
And then people keep pretending they don't understand what's all the fuss between PRC and ROC is even about.
Its a PRC flag. I don't think "CCP" flag is even a thing. CCP or Chinese isn't a race, so I don't get the "race blindness" bit at all.
> The way they acted when asking not to be filmed was very impolite.
Was it? I see a woman carefully approaching the guy and calmly and quietly asking if they were in the video, trying to communicate that they don't want to be. There is a clear language barrier and the guy mocks her when she tries to approach in different ways.
I'd say the guy is clearly behaving like a dick and is actively looking for conflict.
Ironically the very next video YT suggests on this channel is named "security goons try to ban music and failed", suggesting that the guy really has a certain way about himself.
I don't personally believe in the "bigger dick" narrative when the whole point of trolling is provoke someone to loose their cool. The piano guy spend good few minutes poking those asian people, making fun of them and even tried grabbing one of them.
The biggest dick is the one who is looking for conflict, not the one whom they found during their trolling quest.
I don't know about the racism though, it's possible but he might simply not like the Chinese government and political system (and assume that waving a Chinese flag means supporting it, which was probably the case).
The pianist actually did try to grab that woman, look at the video.
I can't even say if the asian guy overreacted because I can't imagine myself being in the same conversation and not busting the pianist's nose or balls - and that's what would have probably happened if the pianist gave the same attitude towards a random white British girl off camera.
> I don't know about the racism though, it's possible but he might simply not like the Chinese government and political system
He was calling them "Japanese" while cracking jokes about "Chinese government" and mocking their language skills, while the woman he tried to grab was explaining to him that she is actually British. That's clearly racist.
One's political preferences is never an excuse of such a behavior towards individuals - a lot of people tend to forget that.
> and assume that waving a Chinese flag means supporting it, which was probably the case
Tourist groups often use flags in order to keep track of the group members. Thousands of people use the Union Jack or the US flag as a mere garage decoration.
There are myriad of possible reasons a person could be holding some nations flag other than to show support for a certain political force within that nation.
Although his hand can't be seen, it definitely seems he just came closer to the flag or hand
It's for sure extremely unlikely he was assaulting, which is what the scream of the Chinese implied.
---
> He was calling them "Japanese" while cracking jokes about "Chinese government" and mocking their language skills, while the woman he tried to grab was explaining to him that she is actually British. That's clearly racist
That's compatible to just not liking the Chinese dictatorship, and it's typical for the Chinese government to accuse of racism anyone who criticizes them.
There might be racism here though.
---
> There are myriad of possible reasons a person could be holding some nations flag other than to show support for a certain political force within that nation.
I'm not Chinese but I don't think I'd be happy to hold that flag if I didn't support the CCP system. After all the biggest star represents the CCP.
But it might well be so that in some occasions (e.g. sport events) you genuinely use it with good intents.
Actual racism towards Asians is in any case very rare, in my experience
Anyhow, Chinese citizens are mostly victims, and you should indeed not treat them in that way for what their government does.
> He was calling them "Japanese"
Due to a misunderstanding. He had just talked with another guy who was expecting a Japanese crew to show up so they could do some filming. He thought the Chinese people were the Japanese crew.
What countries require to "blur people in the background"?
Don't grab women.
In most countries, they would have used (and abused) of their authority to yell at the guy. Telling him that he has to shut up whatever they say even if not true. And otherwise it would be police offense.
Here, despite the tension they keep their calm, try to stay respectful and not aggressive and do what they can to defuse the situation.
In my opinion, it works very well to have the person in front reduce their aggressivity.
Ask any young black person who has chuckled at a police officer who has rolled out the "strong smell of cannabis" excuse on a public street to single them out rather than the pungent, oblivious white stoner walking ahead of them who you can still smell 100 feet away!
german/austrian culture is still very much about respect. and as i wrote on a seemingly completely different topic yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39077136 german/austrian culture is way more conservative than the rest of the world (and austria is more conservative than germany) , at least for western ideas of what is conservative. in different aspects some asian cultures (most notably japan) are extremely conservative in their own way.
as an austrian who has lived in the US for a few years and many other places in the world, i came to appreciate that style. the friendliness may be superficial with some people but it only takes a few interactions to find out, and, what is much more important, in many situations it doesn't even matter. when i am in a shop, i don't care if the staff are friendly deep down in their heart or only acting friendly because they want to sell something (well duh, it's a shop). shopping in the US is still more pleasant because i am guaranteed that people will be friendly (and if they are growling internally because i didn't buy anything, it's their problem not mine). in europe friendly people exist, but it's luck of the draw.
So it's not remotely surprising to see it applied to actual Chinese people, whether there's justification or not.
Calling "freedom" the right to film (and publish on YouTube) anyone is ludicrous (yeah I know how many Americans do that).
Your freedom ends when others' freedoms begin, and if you had to assume that everything you do in public would be stored forever for the world to see your freedom just tanked.
Were you born after they spread, by any chance?
EDIT: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/thrxuy/iso_surveill...
Surveillance Camera Man might be my new hero, if his goals where the ones I hope.
Although I might want to turn away the surveillance cameras as well, some rando filming could be worse for:
- uploading the video to YouTube
- sometimes reaching places that are not really covered with cameras
- and in the Surveillance Camera Man case specifically, for it being more likely that the video be used for nefarious purposes
CCTV footages aren't used for profit and it will not be published to the public.
Brendan's live video is used for profit and is published for everyone to see.
https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&search_query=security+...
You mean to say CCTV footages in its entire duration gets profit?
I think the Chinese didn't move because they were recording something and wanted to do it in that place, but most of all they wanted what had already been recorded of them to be deleted / blurred.
Sure it's a little ironic if they were recording themselves, but in many countries you expect it to be a right to have recordings of you at least not distributed (and it is ironic for PRC people to talk about rights).
It's ludicrous to claim you have a right to force others to avert their cameras when you are out in public, and that otherwise, your rights are violated. If you don't want to be seen, wear a mask. The public and its eyes/cameras don't belong to you.
You can't see that you're forcing people to act in some way when you film them.
The kind of freedom you defend here is the one of reducing other people's freedom (by a larger amount than what you sacrifice by not filming).
Can I avoid it if you refuse to blur me / not upload the video ?
Sure, by beating you up maybe, but that's not really allowed in today's society xD
I don’t see that as a negative though.
But the minimal standard for simply walking among strangers and for being recorded forever for the world to see is very different, if you care about your dignity.
And that's all assuming there are surveillance cameras to limit other actions in the first place
At this point I wonder if this recording freedom idea was one of those used to spread surveillance cameras (I wasn't following English media at the time)
Their demeanor is strikingly out of line with the behavior of Chinese tourists.
Their tactics resemble a Falun Gong effort to discredit the CCP.
The first step is to identify them.
The Chinese man was in the wrong for escalating the situation gathering more attention and it seemed like he was making it look like they were being oppressed. We need the side of the Chinese people on this. We'll see.
Brendan tried to get the Chinese woman to "dance" and made a remark that British girls are more fun which was really inappropriate and disrespectful when the Chinese woman respectfully disagreed to dance.
The Chinese woman then again respectfully requested to not film them in a nice tone and not in a condescending way well at least not to me.
Brendan then again started to retaliate and did not respect the request which is by the way, not that hard to honor such a request. Brendan could've moved on and just played music after that but instead, he wanted to make a fuss about it and for me, it looked like he tried to escalate it.
The Chinese guy then comes in to explain in a very commanding voice because Brendan isn't listening and being dismissive of the whole thing. He explained clearly that they do not give consent on being included in the video because they are way in the background and Brendan had the camera point to the Chinese group in the background for the "dance" request.
The Chinese guy then sounds frustrated when his initial request was not even acknowledged by Brendan and was answered in retaliation by asking a question instead of respecting the request which should've been a fair request to begin with.
Brendan then escalates further by saying "We are not in Communist China" which was way out of line and very racist because in this conversation, their country of origin is irrelevant. They are just people asking not to be included in the video which by the way is used for profit. It's not a Chinese thing to not be included in any video by the way.
To me, Brendan / Dr. K was in the wrong in this one. He clearly did not listen and tried to be a dick about it making it all about "FREE SPEECH" when clearly it's not.
It was a livestream - to stop recording means ending the stream, which he didn't want to do when there's thousands of viewers watching.
If the group didn't want to be filmed, they could have just..moved out of camera shot.
It escalated because Brendan retaliated and we ended up with this mess.
The other party attempted to assert their right to not have their likeness published online. As they are in the United Kingdom and not in China, the statement of this clear fact and Brendan's assertion of his rights to film in public and publish that video were proper.
The other party were being ignorant of, insensitive to, and intolerant of the customs and norms of the people of the United Kingdom. You are in the wrong for claiming racism when this was a clash of cultures.
https://9gag.com/gag/a8qZ9vO
Given how predictable this kind of mob reaction was, I still maintain the person filming was a dick; within legal rights or otherwise. Some of the comments here gleefully implying FAFO / Streisand Effect and the like, are baffling to say the least.
Meanwhile, this explanation from one of the people involved sounds very sensible: https://twitter.com/Byron_Wan/status/1749626454021992852
This isn't a sensible response. This is casting blame solely on the other party. A guilty child could have written this. Stop falling for this.